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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 ต.ค. 2024
- This video discusses the Scissors Takedown, and how it causes injury, either to the ankle or the knee.
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I hate how dangerous Kani Basami is, because I personally think a well done flying Kani Basami is extremely elegant and graceful.
I got robbed once when i was in university and i always go for a night run. I had a person come up to me trying to rob me. I was panicking and i just dropped kani basami and i hurt the aggressor.
It was a half ass kani basami. I was panicking and after i heard him grunt. I got up and sprinted away.
Kani basami holds a special place in my heart. Its the reason why i want to learn throws more and what got me into judo fully
@@ZanOGAL I don't see the dangerous version of kani basami as a reliable self-defense technique either; you're looking at a 25% chance at best it goes "wrong" in just the right way, and it is a sacrifice throw after all meaning if you fail now you're on the ground and they're not
Doesn't need to be In competition
@@MaxLohMusic its not. In fact that was a dumbass thing i did at the moment 🤣 even to this day i still keep thinking why i risked doing that.
Good timing. Eric Paulson demonstrated this with Jesse Enkamp in a recent video by controlling his fall with the hand. Your last video on the kani basami was awesome and should serve as a good etiquette reminder with this one.
Great breakdown as always
I guarantee that's the reason for this video. He (and countless others) saw Paulson a highly respected and WAY MORE knowledgeable grappler demonstrate the move safely. He's done 2 or 3 videos on the subject, but he never showed non-judo/jiu-jitsu clips doing the move, especially the "king" of the scissor kick, Cung Le or spoken with a more experienced martial artist and gotten their perspective. I agree, the move can be dangerous, the videos don't lie, but he needs to talk with people like Le or Paulson.
@@OvercomingInertia919 Saw that video with Jesse and Paul. Paul knew how it's done safely.
@barrettokarate Could be, though I thought Chaafi's video was appropriate and we'll explained. Maybe he can do am interview with Paulson to compare the techniques of catch as catch can and judo.
Otherwise, I'm just an ex-wrestler and strength athlete here to support the community and engage some edutainment
@AndyOhMy Eric Paulson is a walking martial arts encyclopedia. I always enjoyed his fights growing up , and was happy to see he recovered from his illness last year.
@@barrettokarate I thought he made the video because of Rokas (Martial Arts Journey) getting his leg broken from the move.
The technique was legal when I started training judo. It was a very dangerous technique. People got hurt.
Watching these injuries made me hold my breath 😵😵💫
Nice presentation. For me Judo is the ultimate martial art sport and all of its techniques (dangerous or lethal) should be preserved. Here's a fun fact: in the 1970s the italian football (soccer) team introduced Kani Basami as an efficient way of tackling your opponents and it was a blast, italians became an impenetrable fortress becoming world champions and reaching finals twice! However that form of tackling was later banned due to too many career ending injuries mostly broken ankles.
Where can I read about this? Sounds fascinating!
@@autistpatrol2493 I don't know if there's a specific documentary about this but I watched a lot documentaries about FIFA world cups. That tackle was based on Kani Basami but it is basically identical in its form! Later on it spread to most countries but at some point 'two foot tackle' was banned. It is fascinating how Judo influenced so may aspects of our daily life.
@@ComboMuster I'm confused; these things are allowed in soccer? Does that mean you're allowed to do ashi barai, kouchi gari etc as long as your hands don't touch?
@@MaxLohMusic soccer tackles were based on kani basami and italians were the first to introduce those tackles but now are banned.
1:53 what do you mean if the foot is rotated out the pressure will go to the ankle "instead of" the knee? That is the same motion as a heel hook. A heel hook breaks the knee, by twisting the ankle. If the ankle is twisted outward, it's the famous ACL tear. Correct me if I'm wrong
It is a much different case at 7:15. The reason he survived is the ankle is in line with the knee. The ankle is turned "out" only in the context of the body; in the context of the knee it was in line with it. Also his knee orientation was such that it was not forced to buckle.
I agree with you when , you mentioned no injury without grabbing the upper body, when I did it in karate, it was from my opponent throwing a rear leg side kick and if they ever stepped down, I would fire in, and would always get it. No one ever got hurt and I wasn’t even doing it 100% right
Regardless of whether it *can* be done safely or not, there is so much that can go wrong when both people are actively fighting each other that I would never want to risk it. I really don't get why there is controversy over this when there is so much evidence of what can go wrong.
it depends if it's a real fight or a practice or competitive fight, in the first case it's a high risk high reward move likely to just end it right away if you know what you're doing. in other cases that's like anything else, you got to prepare counters if the rules say it's fine to use it, so you are to blame for falling for it.
It being used in real fight in the ancient time but remember that there was no tar road or cement floor in the ancient time, people are mostly fighting on dirt or sand, even if in the building it is most likely wooden floor. Today, if you use it, you might injure yourself because of road or floor, but it is little compared with the damage on your opponent...
@@MizanQistina It's not about the floor, it's the other person landing on top of your leg. In a live match when both people are fighting each other, you are not going to have perfect technique. I nearly busted out my knee trying tani ooshi (a similar but less dangerous move) on a 300 pound dude. I took him down but all that weight falling on top of me nearly put me out of commission. I feel like people who say these things don't fight regularly and have never had their bones broken before. Breaking your leg could mean you will never walk again. No thanks. I will try something else.
@@lelieutenant7386 It's not about falling for it or not. The risk of injury is too great not only for the person who gets taken down but for the attacker using it. If one of you is slightly off, somebody's leg could get broken (that includes the person performing the move). It's stupid. Even in a real fight, I would not risk it. If you break your leg you could be out of commission for good. You might have to walk with a cane for the rest of your life.
@@Handofcrom13 Never heard something like that happened before, if it does surely there will be records or at least folk lore about it. Ancient people are usually at average to light weight unlike us in modern era with food technology. Such thing unlikely to happen 😄
The discriminating factor is the placement of the legs: one should be high, at the height of the pelvis; the other over or at the back of the knees. Posting a hand on the ground helps with the safety, but that is what is crucial.
The scissor takedown is also used in Freestyle wrestling. It is rare, but I have personally seen it used successfully in Freestyle competition.
I have seen it used in San da competition numerous times, without injury.
It can be done assertively, in competition, without injury with minor adjustments.
You can only reduce the risk so much. The danger is not entirely within your control. It's based on whether your opponent reacts by turning the foot out (contrary to what this video was claiming, turning the foot out creates the highest risk of ACL injury in this case). In all the videos mentioned the injured people had the toes turned outward. In the one case where the injury did not happen, it was because the knee was able to be straight and didn't buckle.
Thanks for the analysis, Chadi.
Great video Chadi, you hit it outta the park once again. Your explanation and eye for detail on the scissor takedown is really informative and appreciated! Thank you for this video!
Nice comparative look. Taido also has a very interesting approach to scissoring leg takedowns.
Thank you for continuing to talk about this. It's important to understand!
Great point. Gripping the upper body causes that lack of ability to fall properly that’s needed.
In our pre-WWII-based jujitsu school, we teach this technique as a defense from a collar grab. Tori counters by grabbing high up on uke’s collar (not the sleeve) behind the neck. When executing the throw, tori's body stays upright until the last minute; that whole leaning over and putting your hand on the floor thing is for colored belts…
Practiced in this limited way, I, personally, have never seen a lower body injury result from this throw. However, my buddy once performed an unusually perfect kani basami on me that felt like someone grabbing me by the legs and using them to whip my upper body at the floor. My head bounced off the mat like a basketball. Our professor said yeah, that’s what it’s supposed to look like. So the knee is just a bonus, I guess.
I was using Kami basami before I knew how to grapple, in karate. I would use it and score a point with the back fist as soon as we hit the ground.
I learned it properly later on, and never had a problem with it, taught people and they never had a problem with it.
Then one day I was rolling with a spazzy novice, and we were working takedowns, he was coming at me like he was in a gold medal match at ADCC and flew at me with no base, no Palm on the ground just jumped and broke my ankle in half
Great video Chadi! Congratulations on your courage for stading up against those are not responsible enough
Great breakdown!
The two examples from 5:17 are the ideal i guess, with both your opponents legs elevated and swept clear off the ground, however the opponent should have good breakfalls to keep their head safe
A Capoeira usa muito essa técnica
It was very interesting to see safer variations of the technique, thanks for all the education on the topic.
This dude has nightmares about this move
Jake from Armchair violence made a video about this a while ago (i think its called why are Dangerous Moves banned) where he argues that the entry angle and backwards uke movement are key to adding safety to the move
Unfortunately these days there are so many 3:52 clubs doing mixed martial arts Brazilian ju-jitsu so on so forward.I practiced Japanese jujitsu and Kano ju-jitsu never hurt myself but why.The simple answer is time we did scissor takedown and nobody never got injured .Before I could try that technique I was a brown belt with 8 years of experience.Anybody can be injured simply becouse they didn’t learn how to fall and also because lots of people are too aggressive with their sparing partner
Sport karate use it too, well in the past.✌️🙏
Is it just me, or the safer version looks better? Especially in the Silat clips, it looks more like a throw rather than just making the opponent stumble by putting weight on his legs.
In silat we do it in a way where by we rotate around the standing person. If you take a look at the silat footage here the for the back facing Kani basami most of the end state the person on the ground will be at an angle, never inline with the opponent
there is an olympian Andy Hrovat that did a seminar at B team you can see, and he teaches it as a cutback with a scoop grip with the post hand. it looks intuitively much safer and more controlled although he still pulls with the whizzer
My father taught me the second way without grabbing..but don't know where he learned it, he said from his father, so mistery goes on 😅
Seen a wrestler do this as a counter to a single leg. Arm posting seems to prevent injury along with the momentum in that case making it less dangerous due to a more safe angle
There are several major variations of this move, using it as an attack when you're jumping up onto your opponent is the most dangerous while using it as a counter to a single leg by putting your hand down and dropping into the scissor like a sacrifice throw is the least... it's used extensively in Cambo and MMA.
Tatami mats are exceptionally dangerous because you get such an incredible grip on them it's hard for your foot to slide out so your knee can get folded underneath easier
All the Japanese jiujitsu-ka learned from books because the Edo period lasted 400 years. That's 400 years of a lack of randori and we are still learning from books and now also videos, Excellent.
Some schools had randori, though it was called something else.
That first one turned into a calf slicer
When I was a kid the scissor takedown was regularly taught by our Taekwondo instructors. They didn't teach us to grab people and pull them in. They only taught us to jump in low and go for it. I guess that's why almost no one young or old got hurt from it. They also taught us a version where you do it from the front and on only one leg. Never seen videos of people doing that particular one leg version anywhere though. Which is unfortunate bc in my experience it works just as well!
I told this guy he was doing it wrong. The bottom leg goes behind the feet not the knee. He's showing all of these techniques and haven't been formally trained.
Such a pity it is so risky; such a beautiful technique when done well. I think this is one of the issues with the insistence on IJF Competitions-it gets so aggressive, with only ippon being considered. Also, in Silat, it appears you can put the opponent on their front or back?! My former Judo coach had his ankle badly messed up by kani basami, back in the day, and chose not to enter any more competitive shiai!! I have long been concerned as my knees have always been a touch on the delicate side. Pity the no holds variant isn't permitted within IJF Rules, as it appears, both from Capoieira and Silat, to be usable, sans injury..... Also, I've witnessed various wrestlers do it no handed. Then again, I've also seem wrestlers using kawazu gake, with no resultant injury.....context is key. For me it remains a vital part of Judo.
💜🌶🧠🌶💜🥋🥋🥋
There are many ways to land this or a variation thereof in capoeira but most commonly I’ve seen the “attacker” post one hand on the ground which gives them more control of how the receiver falls
I used to do it as kid but i did pushing in the belly not the leg. This takedown seems like a good defense and counter to leg catch when your kick get grabbed
In MMA & sambo we do this full contact all d time & we never had an injury. Even in karate we did it on gokyo kumite
What year is the footage of the competitor from Spain doing Kani? Its been banned by the IJF since the 80s. Was this something other than Judo comp?
If you do it like the Imanari roll (which somewhat looks like a variation of Kani Basami) or any variation without any hand grip applied on the person's upperbody, then the risk of injuring someone dramatically decreases.
This (posting first) is how Gordon Ryan did it vs Bo Nickal
Chadi
People held onto the lapel with their right hand when doing the technique. It often went well. But at intervals things went horribly wrong. So I welcome the ban of the scissor takedown.
I knew it. I knew it. I remember hitting the safe version as a kid because I saw it on the Sambo episode of human weapon. I was told it was dangerous but I remember there being a safe way to doing this move. I feel vindicated
What is the book in the video?
The throw ist to dangouris for an tournament. But Judo is even more then torurmanent
Is it because because people used to actually train it an learned how to do it instead of just throwing themselves directly at the person's knee?
My first sensei broke it down so well, I've been able to use it dozens of times without ever hurting anyone.
So many things can get wrong if it’s done poorly
In the old schools, we were taught to take the person FORWARDS onto the mat, never injured anyone.
That's not what the picture is showing. You can't take someone forwards with the front leg higher than the back.
@@strawbilly We were taught your right leg goes in front ( if on the opponents left side) so your belly is facing the ceiling and you and your opponent roll clockwise.
Any videos lracticong between real judoka and real boxer?any link on your videos?Caise i d lo e tobfind out how the wisdom of the judo .jujutsu aikijutsu deal with the challenges of boxing tactics ...cross.. upper cut...and the steps ...
Since they are martial arts...coming out of imperial armies and their body to body fights ...in battlefields i pressume they had seen and stufied the fists..the punches...
Eager to learn more on zhis from you as you are unbiased and professional on the studying material and historical evidences.
I go from the shin and stomach. Not the knee. And I’ve only accidentally hurt like one person.
it is best to learn from silat martial arts and see how they do an old Scissors takedown.
Great Analysis, Chadi, but I cannot watch these clips... Kansetsu Waza are very effective in combat, but since they are rarely used in daily practice, Uke may not see/feel it and therefor be unable to make use of ukemi. Worse yet, Uke may get mixed up or distracted and turn the wrong direction with hips or feet, thereby making the potential injury worse. As I've mentioned, one of my 1st Judo instructors, a Nidan at the time accidentally fractured both his uke's legs below the knee, in part because uke turned the wrong way and with all his energy, either to throw or counter at the same time the kane basami was attempted. If Judo practitioners are destined for combat or real world protective services, then they probably should train in Kansetsu Waza, but recreational or young Judo (the sport) competitors, I'm not sure... What if anyrhing does Neil Adams, Mike Swain or other former Olympians think about this? Do they let their kids train in kansetsu waza?
LOL I bet John Danaher read this 2:55
Practice it on a dummy for muscle memory, sure. I also hate the idea of dropping something practical just because it doesn't favor sport. However, I'd hate to have someone do this in a friendly bout. The risk is insane. I already have knee pain daily and I can't imagine what an injury from that would do long term.
When people try to single leg me I always get this intrusive thought to counter with Kani Basami, I have yet to let them win..
Forgive my ignorance, I love Tani Otoshi and know many people that use it. How is it dangerous? Just looking to protect myself and my training partners.
It is not lol
Worse than kani takedown is ban leg grabs from judo.
pencak silat sparrings look like mortal combat wtf
Using Silat and Capoeira as a counter argument is pretty good to start an interesting discussion. But saying that Judo doesn't know how to stand/throw is actually very arrogant. The whole point of the sport is to stay standing and throw the other.
I think he mean that Judoka are not used to such attack, so become less reflex to save from injury. You see the Judokas keep on resisting and become stiff while obviously being off balanced by the successful scissor technique. In Silat Sport, we know and expecting such attack, when we see it happens, we either try to escape or let it go as you see in the video. Perhaps it is the way the game is played, in Silat Sport there's no submission, so there is no point into keep on resisting, there's always next round.
🧐🤔👊👍🙏
On a light note, this odd reverse version of kani basami, is still ingrained in the memory of people in my generation. Comments? 🙂
th-cam.com/video/gsBn5yZsqWA/w-d-xo.html
I don't know where he learned that, surely it is not in the "wax on wax off" movement 😂
هل من الممكن شرح التقنية باللغة العربية في الترجمة شادي خاصة وأنت لبناني
If falling didnt cost the match it would b much safer.
The thing that makes me laugh with people who are fans of this throw is, most people who do martial arts have to work for a living. And the same thing goes for people who thinks every lesson should be hardcore. At the end of the day, most of us have to go to work the next day. If you're martial art training has a high risk of injury, than how are you going to work? This is especially problematic for people who work in professional or public jobs. Getting something as small as a black eye, could cause issues for people who work in that sort of industry
Wrong, not all who joined tournaments are professional fighters. You only need to do it the right way. Training does matter. Whatever happens in the ring is what you're being trained to do.
هل من الممكن شرح التقنية باللغة العربية في الترجمة شادي خاصة وأنت لبناني الأصل
Bruce Lee did this in final fight enter the dragon
Anyone else notice that footage of silat looks nothing like its taught?
What do you mean?
@MizanQistina if you look at how silat is trained with drills and forms it's a lot more static and closer in.
When it comes to a live contest it looks like all traditional martial arts with dead training, bad kickboxing.
@@BeepBoop2221 Silat Sport is a sport, the techniques used are standard for all schools/styles of Silat and emphasis on safety. It was different when first time introduced in the 70s, many got broken bones and teeth, even in the 90s when I trained the watered-down version it is still violent, then it goes into many evolutions into what you see in the videos.
Silat is NOT a monolithic style like most MA, each school/style are totally different from each other, depends on their own history and influences. "Silat" is just an umbrella term for different martial arts in the Southeast Asia practiced by the locals, so anything can be Silat when it merged into the culture. I mean, an ancient MMA.
My comment disappears. Let me try again.
There are a lot of scissor techniques in Silat Sport, not just the flying scissor despite that is the most popular. You can see it all in this video from 9:10 to 14:15, I think it have relationship with Judo/Jujitsu at some point in the ancient time --> th-cam.com/video/AjoS7RmBQYA/w-d-xo.htmlsi=Afca1-QjKinke8Ef