Having been in various choirs, one of which often sang a cappella fairly frequently, your comments about the pitch drift were bang on. Shifting as a unit. I’m so impressed by your extensive knowledge about so many different aspects of music. Your channel is a gem.
Same. Same. I was in numerous choir and ensemble groups (3,6,9,&show choir) in high school and college. When you’re an a cappella group you maintain shifts and drifts so the group doesn’t sound off. You wait until the next breath moment and do your best to pitch correct. Hide it in plain sight, because you’re more likely to lose points if one person loses pitch and the rest don’t adjust for it. The error just sticks out loud and hard. If you move together with it, you may even get lucky enough for judges to miss it.
Thanks so much for being brave enough to approach this again - from what I've seen watching reactions to a capella bands, we fans can be ferocious in the comments section! I loved getting to hear your analysis of a live performance - spot on, it's how they organically match each other that really makes the sound magic
I am so glad you did this follow up video. I love Voctave and was sad to think they needed that post production. So glad they are as good as I thought they were live.
You were smiling at the moments I couldn't help smiling. Wonderful. I love your analysis. I just discovered your channel and I think it's brilliant. Thank you!
I must've been a singer or musician in a past life. I can't read notes and I don't know terminology; nor am I able to play any instruments. But by golly I can always hear those sharps and flats even when others around me can't. Edited to add that I absolutely love your channel. And your smile! When a performance goes well, your face just lights up. Watching you watch them is a pure joy.
Very interesting and sympathetic analysis. People forget that a vocal group is/should be a unit, not an agglomeration of units. When a group is in synchrony they are "in tune" with each other, not necessarily with a monitor. And the fact that this group is triple the size of a barbershop group (a standard for perfect harmony) makes them very impressive. Yes, the high soprano doesn't blend in, but I think the highest voice is often a shrill one, whether tenor or soprano, and the music is written to aggravate that characteristic. Thanks for pointing out the importance of the bass singer being the group's anchor.
I never would have caught that the pitches were drifting because I didn't hear the flat/sharp tones. A lovely group and it was interesting listening to you pointing out the differences between this and the first video.
Thoughts on acapella singing... Based on my experience in an acapella chamber choir I agree with Fil: the voices in the group are "in/on pitch" with each other. Our performances went like this: "Ken" used a pitch pipe to get the pitch for the first song. He hummed his base pitch and we all took our pitches from it. "Ken" had perfect pitch so when one song ended he would move up/down the appropriate interval and hum the bass pitch for the next song. And on and on. So we took one pitch from the pitch pipe and the rest of the performance was all based on relative pitches.
You should check out The Roches, especially their a cappella rendition of "Hallelujah Chorus" from Handel. It's back the late 70s/early 80s. It's a trio of sisters, basically. Unfortunately we've lost one of them to cancer a few years ago, and they no longer perform as The Roches, but often do guest spots on the albums of their kids. :)
I love your analysis. I am learning a lot, especially about why I like some recordings more than others. I enjoyed this song, but the last one by this group, not so much. The raw emotion really comes through so much more powerfully in this one.
Great vid Fil. Spot on on why some people, me, simply can not get into modern music. The production is dreadful these days. Auto tuning and pitch correction doesn't mean a singer is bad, but how on earth will we ever know?? I have been forced to listen to contemporary stations for long periods of time and I honestly feel as though I haven't heard a single voice during that time. Whoever got the notion that perfect pitch was the essence singing should be the first against the wall.. Incidentally, I do have a rather tuned ear and I did notice the group came in sharp when the melody changed, but I simply noticed it. It registered unconsciously but in context of the whole performance, as you say, it simply doesn't matter. Really glad you showed this group a second time. You'd almost think there were twice as many on stage as there were. Fantastic. Must give this group a listen.
Thank you Fil for making this video! You validated the actual skill of Voctave as a vocal group and highlighted some of the technical things a high-level a cappella ensemble can do. Great points about high-level active listening, staying in sync with each other (pitch-wise and dynamics-wise) during pitch transitions including when going "sharp" or “flat” as a unit. In this case (of a vocal-only group) the terms “sharp” or “flat” may seem to convey an impression of “poor technique” to people who just watch which one video or of context, which is unfortunate. In my view, your use of the pitch monitor (which uses 440Hz equal temperament) is to show, through analyzing obviously good singers, that the human voice is not designed (or supposed) to strictly conform to the limits of that tuning system, which is more applicable to some musical instruments. Pitch "correction" for vocals is pitch "manipulation", with the effect of makonv the voice sound inhuman or like a instrument, ultimately distorting the humanity in the actual vocal expression. The most annoying part is when people that can't hit pitches on a good day use the technology to create a false idea to the public that that's how they sound (rather than making the effort to learn how to use their voice properly),thus robbing good singers of recognition of their actual talent and hardwork as they get to be compared against the artificiality of pitch correction. Sadly, I don't think it's possible to completely obliterate the use of some effects on A Cappella studio recordings in particular since: (1.) they are a reflection of the increasing use of technology in the music industry as a whole and, (2.) their releases will be in competition for “radio play” with non-acappella music. One acceptable thing they might do in editing an acappella recording is bringng parts that were low in volume when sung up to the same level as other parts (so everything can be heard) since low pitches (e.g. bass parts) tend to travel slower and get drowned out by higher pitches (soprano, tenor) just based on the frequencies. The producer or engineer may feel the vocal expression does not carry over to the listener because of the levels and edit accordingly. The real issue as you've been stating all this while is pitch "correction".
I'm glad you did this video. To let us hear how they can sing.. I got chills (music heaven) . Different people with different voices making some real sounds and making it sound beautiful. I have a cassette recording of Manhatten Transfer who sing acapella. Thanks for this video 👍🙂👍
Another way to look at the topic is: all of the labeled notes are just names for preselected frequencies that are at specific multiples of each other. The human ear and brain only perceive the ratio between each frequency. The specific frequencies don't mater as long as the ratios stay the same. The reason being perfectly accurate to predetermined frequencies is important is when you try to blend with instruments that can't change what frequency they make.
I love acapella groups and their arrangements! Voctave is great as are Home Free, Pentatonix and Voiceplay. My favorite classical vocal ensemble is Voces8- heavenly Early Music as well as modern, like Eric Whitacres’s works. Would love to see you react to them too!
Me too. Voces8 are absolutely lovely to listen to. Their bass is awesome. The sound is great for just 8 singers… I didn’t like this performance, personally. Too busy!
Thanks for this video. They sounded so good in this performance. I like how you explained how the editing takes away the human quality of the voice despite making it hit the "right" notes; it's the fluidity and imperfections that make the vocals sound real and to connect to listeners.
Thank you, thank you Fil!! This is a beautiful analysis. They sound fantastic and HUMAN! Their gorgeous voices reflect true, human emotion/s that the listener can relate to. This performance registers on a deep and real emotional level and the arrangement was incredible. The piece was a beautiful journey in which the listener is emotionally invested. I love this kind of performance. The first recording simply did not do them justice. I'd much rather hear a few "imperfections" as opposed to the robotic, artificial vocal sound of the recording. The beauty of choral singing is that the singers around you, side to side of you, and in back of you, all influence your own vocal performance. This is an example of technical excellence while executing emotion-filled vocals. The first soprano/s nailed that D#6 in the final bar of the finale which sounded/felt like a dotted eighth note. Impressive. Yes, some aspects of the vocals need to be tightened up but overall it's a lovely effort. I would have preferred a bit less vibrato (more of a straight tone) overall, especially at the close of a phrase. (Am I nitpicking? Probably. But with these changes, the performance would have been near-perfect in my eyes). The higher voices relied on the lower voices for tempo which could have been just a tad slower. It's always exciting to listen to and watch truly talented vocalists. What a shame their producer/s manipulate their recorded vocals to such a degree. Disney, if you're listening and if you care: *Please stop with the overuse of technology! All of your vocal artists sound like chipmunks! You sign talented, capable singers to your label and then you assault their vocals in the studio in post production. Just stop the insanity!* I really loved this analysis and commentary Fil, thanks again! 🎤🎶🙋🏻♀️🥰🔥🔥🦋
I got it when you played the first video. Absolutely. Love the two comparisons. It was very obvious. I also agree with you they are very solid live without electrical assistance. I also prefer everything live. I try not to be critical but I do play two instruments and it’s hard not to notice. In fact I can pick it up rather quickly. My son has played the viola since age three and joined a college orchestra at the age of nine. Than came the guitar….goodness..he spent literally…..thousands of hours playing. His mother and I could attest to that. Although just twenty he is a much better guitarist than I am and I have played for forty years. I have noticed like dad….his favorite groups are fantastic musicians. An example would be, Rush. The best live performances we have witnessed was Union Station and Beth Hart with Joe Bonamassa. Cheers.
Love the analysis Fil, while I do like Voctave, guessing V is roman 5, this it what sets voiceplay apart, everything is done inhouse and always perfect. Even if you don't like the actual track, you have to appreciate the effort put in
I’m going to see Voctave in concert in a week. I already am a huge fan, and this video reinforced that. I think an a cappella group like this is akin to a school of fish when it comes to the tuning. A tight, cohesive unit that may flow up or down a bit!
You should listen to Voctave doing The Great Movie Medley. Not only are they doing a lot of instrumental arrangements but they are onstage with only one microphone.
The depth of her voice will blow your mind. This angel is one of the best singers (incredible extremely low vocal, dramatic contralto + polyphonic voice) in the world! I invite you to discover this wonderful talented young singer. Please make reaction to Diana Ankudinova. I was stunned to find that the first performance (Show "You are Super") I heard was when she was 14!!!! She's now 18 and still developing. She sings in Russian, French, English, Spanish and Arabic. The covers she performed on that show are very popular on TH-cam. Many TH-camrs publish reactions on these performances, which include "Can't Help Falling In Love", "Crow", "Personal Jesus" (all 18 y.o.), "Wicked Game", "Human" (15 y.o.), "Derniere Danse", "It's a Man's Man's Man's World" (14 y.o.), "Take On Me" (17 y.o.) and others. Please react to one of Diana's songs and I promise she will surprise you.
I can take an O-scope or My Submarine Sonar equipment and make micro-volt/frequency changes jump off the screen. Electronics don't lie. I was disappointed to see the almost perfect flat lines rendered by software during their studio performance. But now we seem to be going both ways with the reader's comments. The human ear is not as sensitive, so we need to watch a piece of equipment to prove it. "I didn't like the sound on the first song, but this is OK". You could often hear the same comments when CD's were replacing Vinyl discs decades ago. Superior sig-to-noise ratio and separation, but you could 'hear' the digital steps in the music as opposed to the pure sine wave. I get it. Sometimes live performances crush a studio version for many reasons. But overall, Voctave is a group of amazing singers (most singing for Disney), singing wonderfully arranged songs by their producer Jamie,(a member of the group.) He arranges the songs to showcase (showoff) the individual members. To me, they are a showcase of pro's making a living , at the top of their craft, in a world of mostly young ,sexy, auto-tuned, choreographed dancers....chosen to sing songs written by committee. Angelina Jordan, is another LOVED singer here on TH-cam, with millions of followers...me included. Her editing, phrasing and mature choices on Songs like "All I ask" by Adele is emotional. Frankly, better and warmer than Adele. I don't know if she is being auto-tuned or not. She's a breath of fresh air for my ears. Her version of "Summertime" at age 8 on Norway's got talent , is special whether it's live auto-tuned or not. Fil, check her out and compare the two performances. Clearly, it does not have to be perfect to connect with a lyric and your heart. That is really what's most important. Great job as usual!
All of your analysis videos are so fun to watch (although I havent watched them all, yet) and very educational. It's easy to learn from you because you have a unique way of teaching and keeping my attention.
You have redeemed yourself, in regards to my comments from previous video. I may have misunderstood your analysis, prior, thinking you were saying that the group uses a keyboard for fake background harmonies and such. The problem with technology, as you are using to demonstrate, and you clearly explain it’s downfall of using the software. That the ear will perceive the note or chord being in tune, yet the software will show it as being off. I always believed that Voctave used technology, but I only assumed it was for blending and clarity. I thought, as I stated in previous comment, that you were putting them into the category of Arianna Grande, PTX, Voiceplay and others, who clearly, without question, use multi track and auto tune. To the point where I find them painful to listen to. Accept my apology for my previous comments, as I now understand the technology which I was ignorant about, and just didn’t know existed. I’m glad you found this live version to analyze. Peace.
I LOVE Voctave, and I LOVED this analysis! I subscribed even before I was finished!! Great job! If I were you, I would avoid doing this sort of analysis with Home Free, Pentatonix, or VoicePlay. Many of those fans will absolutely go bonkers if their fav groups are shown to be even SLIGHTLY imperfect! No criticism allowed!!
You are absolutely right about them singing in perfect tune with each other, but that's not a lesser kind of perfectness, it's just the only one. Physically there's only one principle for the intervals and chords to sound perfect and it's only achieved in a capella singing. Any equal temperament is inherently out of perfect tune. Todays de facto standard 12-tet equal temperament, despite being reasonably close to perfect, only providing a single truly perfect interval which is octave, with fifths and fourths being the next closest ones to their perfect counterparts only deviating by about 2 cents. The fact that Voctave almost came back to the original pitch was in no way intentional, but a simple coincidence, with the deterministic end as a result of all the chord progressions and modulations in the song. In the sake of perfect sounding chords, the group drifted collectively, but not in parallel. Each voice would differ from "standardized" to a different extent since no chord exists with two notes coinsiding in pitch with a "standard" temperament. Again, the exceptions are octaves, which are perfect even in the "standard" and fourths and fifths, which are too close to perfect to be distinguished. Again, you are right that there's no key! Indeed, there's no key in any acoustically perfect music in the sense it's intended to be in contemporary western music. Only natural modes are perfect acoustically and they had been abandoned in pursuit of standardizing music and achieving equal division of the octave (not everywhere, though). As for instrumental music, archichemballo was the last goodbye from the western music to perfct intonation, but nothing could be done with a capella singing, because rules of physics work independently of human choice to sacrifice perfectness to global standardization. Vocal chords will find natural perfect resonances and you can't resist it forcefully as you could with strings or electronics.
What a great band. Oh, right, an A Capella vocal group. You really know how to present these videos, this performance needed to be played the whole way through and let us exalt in it's splendor. And your analyses was a great compliment. Was that Paul McCartney on bass? Didn't he say it isn't a C until the bass player plays a C?
Thanks Fil ..... I'm starting to "get it" ........ my musical "ear" is, at best, average but (like you pointed out) most of us can hear/see "in sync" performances ..... I have been watching a lot of voctave videos the last couple of days and it seems that too many of the "studio and location" performances have been doctored in post. I noticed that at least two, and possibly three songs were done during the same session that "Disney Princess medley " was recorded (your first review) - because the clothing was the same but the position of the singers was shifted for different songs ...... It's too bad that this post procedure is deemed necessary by those who move sliders and run cables ....... just sayin ........ keep up the good work
Okay I must say while I generally agree with you... I think your point around 14:00 is not correct. When I listened to the song, I heard that part you call "drifting sharp" (upon restarting into "Joy to the world!" a second time) instead as an intentional KEY CHANGE. I mean, you measured it, they distinctly all shift their pitch up, together, at a relevant point in the arrangement where modulating upward would make sense. I thought that makes it extra impressive, since pulling off a coordinated key change acapella is harder than simply staying in one key. I agree that in other places there's some pitch drift going on, but at that spot in particular it really feels like a musical choice to me rather than an accident.
It isn't a key change for 3 reasons. 1) they end back on the D# without a clear point of modulation. 2) there wasn't a proper modulation in the first place. 3) in western music there would never be a modulation of a quarter tone, which is how much they shift. A composer/arranger would simply never write that because our western ear isn't even trained to hear/sing quarter tones, and our instruments can't play them.
With barbershop in practice, there was a note given at the start of a song and then when we got to the end the note was given again and we could see how much we had drifted, usually downwards, and it was strange to hear because we didn't realise we were drifting apart from the bass section feeling like they were having to sing lower! So in barbershop and probably any a capella singing it is quite important to be able to stay in key so that all sections are singing within their range :)
Fil. Thank you!....Now i understand what you meant in the first video.They are amazing, period. I believe them singing live brings more "life" to the music. Don't get me wrong... their recordings are wonderful. I love these guys! Nobody, even those who are supposed to have perfect pitch, are perfect all the time. Most likely not even close to it! That is due to being humans. :) Maybe you could watch their Great Movie Medley, an ode to the great John Williams movie theme songs. Only 1 song has lyrics. The rest, they are the "orchestra" . Normally they have 11 people (2 bases,1 baritone) 3 tenors, 2 altos, 1 sop/alto and 2 sopranos, one being a true colorature soprano. In the Great Movie medley they have 9 members singing. And I believe that ,from bass to soprano, they have achieved a 5 octave range before. ( lol maybe that is what Voctave means... Roman numeral V + octave ?). For fun....here they are singing in a cafe after breakfast just for the heck of it. How awesome would it be to sing in a group like this!! th-cam.com/video/tWEwrZs73UI/w-d-xo.html
This simply sounds much better than the other video. Honestly, I don't object to post-processing if it improves the sound, but when it's ruining great music as it clearly was in the other video, which sounded unpleasant to me....
Fil, since you are currently focusing on electronic analysis of singers' voices with pitch monitoring software, you should examine the best female singer currently on the planet--Sohyang! I'm sure your subscribers will be astonished to see what a great singer she is and will absolutely love exploring her catalogue of LIVE performances. 👍💘😉
Apparently I should have looked for a live performance before writing off Voctave some time ago. (Not that I can necessarily distinguish pitch correction, I just thought they were trying to sound like a keyboard.) Thanks for the video!
Forget any other request I've made and help me out with this one. There has been an ongoing argument here in Australia about Guy Sebastion since he one the first Australian Idol back in 2003 one side say's he can't sing and uses autotune then there is the side I'm on that says he doesn't. I have to know the answer the argument has gone on way to long. I think the best song for you to analyze is Battle Scars acoustic version live home front.
@@chrispavlich9656 Uhm, VoicePlay? Maytree? VOCTAVE? There are a lot of high-level a cappella groups out there, and many musical styles they incorporate, so I am averse to declaring one the "top of the class", especially when PTX are primarily pop-oriented in most of their work.
@@TheSeeking2know When you say “top”, I’m going by the number of Grammys and awards an artist has won. And how are the others any different as they are one trick ponies with their own genres?
@@beep7 Yes a keyshift is changing the key by a semitone or more, singers never intentionally shift any less than that as it is not measurable. They would also then be out of tune with any instrumentation if any were playing.
Having been in a variety of choral groups including a barbershop chorus, I can appreciate the effort and dedication that goes into this kind of performance but for me it felt like there was a rather strident edge and a frenetic feel and also differing loud vibrato from some singers which made the whole sound less together as a unit and more like a collection of slightly competing voices trying to sing louder than each other, not the lower voices so much, rather the higher ones. I have heard some amazingly well blended barbershop choirs who are better balanced and that makes such a difference in the overall sound. When I was in a ladies barbershop choir it was clear that the bass voices really had to work hard to provide that solid foundation to ground everything and for the other sections to build upon and to hold the pitch up otherwise it could slowly drop over the course of a song and end up with the bass section struggling to go lower and lower which of course showed that the pitch was dropping too much.
Sry, I was knocked off your most recent cele b ration when hit something wrong, I wish I could have finished your great video with the war scenes and looked like military tanks. Please give me the link. I would love to finish it.
you were talking about them being in sync. It's worth pointing out what happens to the human brain and percussions. the human brain will actually match frequency with the percussion causing a "shift" in perspective. It's why we "Feel" music. It takes about 10 min. which is condemnation of singles. (short 3 min. or less songs) Many of us grew up listening to albums, so for us music is far far more than a 3 min. blurb. I think is why people are really hearing pitch correction. the songs are too short for them notice.
It's okay. People get very protective of their favorite singing groups. I dropped Pentatonix when they dropped acapella practice. They are even hauling a piano around now but people still get angry at me for saying they are no longer an acapella band.
Hey Fil. Loving your channel! I've downloaded the analyzer app and enjoying the exploration of artist talents! I know, probably not very 'popular' with others, but I am familiar with many early film vocal artists. I believe they truly had to prove and sustain their talent to earn their recognition honestly with very, very little post production audio correction, if any. I don't know how to do the track isolation, but just using this audio clip of Susanna Foster, (th-cam.com/video/p0lPv3XFNXk/w-d-xo.html) I can see her incredible expertise and technique! She had an enormous range, dynamic, and control, and could jump amazingly, I think using an operatic technique of landing solidly a tinge sharp and vibrato-ing into perfect pitch. And as all professional sopranos did, using rubato to make you sit on the edge of your seat and lean in, in anticipation of her next note! Check out her pitch, range and jumps on the analyzer!
This performance was very Choir like. This arrangement is quite difficult to pull off. You need be very conscious of your part while listening to everyone else. Blending is key (this is like mixing). No one should be sticking out. I think at one time there was three different vocal lines. The arrangement was great. The way the sopranos can stick out is by being to loud which can be easy to do. The fact that I have been in choirs an a acapella praise team. I can appreciate it in all its glory. You are right when you say there needs to be an ebb and flow in music. Music needs to mingle that's what makes it interesting. On a final note Fil how is your arm? You were moving it quite a bit in this video.
I know a lot of vocalists who only sing in heels because they have better posture that way. Meanwhile, I'm in the Measha Brueggergosman camp, preferring to be barefoot if I can!
great followup. I agree that production if not careful can dull out the expression of the live performance. I have heard so many performances where live is far better than the studio/album version. Producers need to wake up in this regard IMHO.
Kind of amazed you didn't point out that a cappella has a long tradition of not even USING the "equal tuning" pitch software requires. In barbershop groups work endlessly to achieve that perfect (literally) overtone series where 4 voices produce 5 notes due to constructive interference of the wave forms. Something Equal tuning can necessarily never create.
Thanks Fil.. one of the great vocal groups would be Manhattan Transfer and I don't think you've covered the voice of the great Roberta Peters.. any one of her Ed Sullivan clips are spectacular..
I would love to see an analysis of Manhattan Transfer. I’m still unable to hear the flat and sharp notes Fil talks about, but to me they are about as “pitch perfect” as you can get.
I think it quite interesting that you have only critiqued one acappella group out of the 4 most popular and in a way slammed the one you have critiqued. It would be interesting to see your comments on Pentatonix, Home Free and Voiceplay. If your analysis of those three are comparable to your analysis of Voctave, then I applaud your critiques. If not, then I will be somewhat disappointed. I have seen Voctave live and your explanation of their live performance was very good.
I would now say, in a roundabout way, that FIL analyzing Voctave is actual high praise because they can actually deliver their vocal performance and arrangements at a close enough level to the studio. The other groups may not be as tight live, especially for more complex arrangements. I've heard PTX sing their Grammy-winning "Daft Punk Medley" live multiply times and it's underwhelming. I realize, apart from any corrections, what they attempted to do with just 5 voices was going to be difficult to replicate live. Edit: Not saying he didn't praise them, but rather that his choosing them (and not the others) is praise enough in the context of this followup video
I don't think it necessarily takes many years of training to sing well in a group, if you can naturally sing in tune, regular rehearsing can result in great performances in a relatively short time :)
Fil tries so hard to explain this, for people who don't really understand. You're doing it perfectly Fil, but when people hear what THEY perceive to be perfection? It's almost impossible to accept what you're saying- just for some, because they can't hear it- at least yet. It takes TRAINING- which is what you're trying to do, lol. So you're going to always get people who are not there yet. A beautiful song, sung brilliantly, just FLOWS- like an undisturbed river. It sounds calm, and calming. And it takes you on a journey, safely. Allow MANKIND to step in, place logs, rocks, old tires & cars in the river? And you get a Turbulent, rough-sounding/ running, river. You can HEAR the river forcing it's way around the obstacles, and creating churning waters, that you can actually HEAR. And it sounds like ... DANGER. People who KNOW what that river sounded like BEFORE all the debris was placed in it? KNOW the way it sounds NOW- is totally different, than what it's SUPPOSED to sound like. Before- Calming. After- Dangerous- or, it can also be said- "That something's not right". THIS is what Fil is trying to show you. The river in and of itself is GOOD, even life-giving; water, fish, cleansing. But allow man to insert HIS actions? And he can totally change what's NATURAL, into something that SOUNDS, unnatural.
Hello, discover the world of Diana Ankudinova, a young singer from Russia and a talented artist. You will be surprised by the strength and beauty of her voice, you can believe me or not, but, listen to her. Please pay attention to Diana. Thanks for attention. Good luck.
Beautiful voices joining to make beautiful music. They don’t need pitch correction software. I bet that the Disney people required it on the previous video to keep the sound of those songs consistent with what’s been heard for so many years. Thanks Fil.
The level of annoyance all depends on how significant the drop was. LoL If it's negligible they shouldn't care. Whole step or more? Problems. The audience will start to notice and it could cause problems with notes becoming too low.
This. Thisthisthis. What irritates me most about it, is when I'm telling someone that can't hear it that there's just something "off", about a performance, that automatically I must hate the group or artist. No, what I hate is when someone tries to technically "perfect" something that's already perfect, because all vocals are made of vibrations that have natural variations. Manual pitch correction IS unnatural, and sounds so wrong, so mechanical, and falls very flat on the ears, unlike the effervescent rise and fall as in this performance and only after watching your videos was I actually proven correct that it was "off" by being technically programmed to be pitch-perfect. It's really nice to know that my ears still function properly, and that I don't need to second-guess my "gut". It's honestly like listening to my kiddo play his Violin. Hearing every note of his warm-up is precisely sharp, telling him it's sharp. Having him say, "I know, but my instructor retuned it because she said it was super flat, even though it sounded bang-on to me." I told him his ears(he's got perfect pitch, and uses his tuner afterward just to make sure, because off-days do happen) and his Korg tuner are his best friends, and whenever there's doubt, show the instructor on his tuner, because the tuner is programmed to be exactly technically perfect, despite what her ears are picking up on a certain day. In an orchestral ensemble like that, having indiviual instruments be off-pitch throws it all off, unlike in choirs, where they all shift in and out equally as a unit, which is why for competition, they tune not by ear, but with a tuner, so every instrument is technically tuned to be pitch-perfect, because they need it to be, whereas for concerts, the Concert Master may tune sections a bit sharp or flat based on what they want the sound overall to be like, and work it into the orchestra as a whole. I'm not sure if this makes any sense, to most, but it's how I explained to people what I was hearing before seeing your analysis videos.
With all due respect to their great voices, but it's not my cup o' tea. The A-capella I like to listen to is "Voice Male & Belle perez" with "Hijo de la Luna". Don't know whether they use atotune or pitch correction, but this song has a emotional meaning to me. This is it: th-cam.com/video/a6ypj8dAP00/w-d-xo.html Maybe you could analyse it. But then again maybe it's not that good enough. But I love it. 💜
I’m surprised but it seems that Fil hasn’t reacted to Angelina Jordan, yet. Although there are videos of her performing since she was 6 years old, I would recommend that he starts at what she does now, at 16. I would like to hear what Fil thinks of her.
I saw a reaction by one reactor that said he could hear Angelina used autoktone in one video. I have tried so long to find it again, to Ask Fil if that is correct. Since I started to follow Fil I have been learning so much, and I can´t hear any song by Angelina and say it is autotuned. I sure hope Fil will react to Angelina. Pretty please Fil 😘
Voces8. I’ll just leave that there lol. There was a lot going on in this performance - too much for me - but it’s a personal taste thing. It was better than the sugary sweet autotuned crap from Disney, that’s for sure. Give me natural voices every time, perfect or not. Thanks Fil. So interesting :)
Having been in various choirs, one of which often sang a cappella fairly frequently, your comments about the pitch drift were bang on. Shifting as a unit. I’m so impressed by your extensive knowledge about so many different aspects of music. Your channel is a gem.
Fil is a gem, too!
Same. Same. I was in numerous choir and ensemble groups (3,6,9,&show choir) in high school and college. When you’re an a cappella group you maintain shifts and drifts so the group doesn’t sound off. You wait until the next breath moment and do your best to pitch correct. Hide it in plain sight, because you’re more likely to lose points if one person loses pitch and the rest don’t adjust for it. The error just sticks out loud and hard. If you move together with it, you may even get lucky enough for judges to miss it.
Thanks so much for being brave enough to approach this again - from what I've seen watching reactions to a capella bands, we fans can be ferocious in the comments section! I loved getting to hear your analysis of a live performance - spot on, it's how they organically match each other that really makes the sound magic
Thank you for doing the follow up. It was a very effective way of showing what you explained in the last analysis! 💖💖
Hello Dianne
How are you doing?
Fil at his best. Eloquent and passionate about music and advocating for the human connection to music.
Well said TorToroPorco, can you imagine a world with no music......
I love when he’s loving it and gets that big grin 😄
Outstanding group. I had never heard of them before this video. Thanks for featuring them!
I am so glad you did this follow up video. I love Voctave and was sad to think they needed that post production. So glad they are as good as I thought they were live.
Hello Barbara
How are you doing today?
Loving all of these analysis videos by Fil.
I just started watching the video(1:43), but I just wanna say that I respect you for coming up with this follow up.
You were smiling at the moments I couldn't help smiling. Wonderful. I love your analysis. I just discovered your channel and I think it's brilliant. Thank you!
I must've been a singer or musician in a past life. I can't read notes and I don't know terminology; nor am I able to play any instruments. But by golly I can always hear those sharps and flats even when others around me can't.
Edited to add that I absolutely love your channel. And your smile! When a performance goes well, your face just lights up. Watching you watch them is a pure joy.
Wonderful analysis! I'm learning so much from you.
Fantastic Fil thank you as it is Sunday here and lovely performance as I finished with our worship team and this sounds so good as it is live!
Music education in all its forms right here on this channel. Great job Fil. Thank you. Janet from Louisiana ☮🖤🤘
Great analogy loved this one. Thanks you're the best Fil!
Absolutely AWESOME analysis and thank you FIL.
"Hive Mind "as we called it when I was a dancer .Thanks you Fil for you're superb anaylsis once again !!
Freedom > expression > connection
Brilliant.
Interesting as ever. Thanks Fil.
Very interesting and sympathetic analysis. People forget that a vocal group is/should be a unit, not an agglomeration of units. When a group is in synchrony they are "in tune" with each other, not necessarily with a monitor. And the fact that this group is triple the size of a barbershop group (a standard for perfect harmony) makes them very impressive. Yes, the high soprano doesn't blend in, but I think the highest voice is often a shrill one, whether tenor or soprano, and the music is written to aggravate that characteristic. Thanks for pointing out the importance of the bass singer being the group's anchor.
Thanks for a follow up on Voctave and sharing your musical knowledge to educate and learn from. 👍
🎄For a moment, it felt like Christmas🎄
Excellent analysis, Fil.
Thank you 🖤🕊️
@Lieslwind & Julie 💞... The world could use a little Christmas spirit about now. it seems that world leaders have painfully lost their way in war!
Hi! @Drew Pall It's so sad and scary. I hope that this tragedy will be over soon 🥺🙏🏽🕯️
Stay well
@@lieslwindjulie3230 Thanks you and you too 😊🧡✌
@@drewpall2598 Thanks ✌🏽😊
You are a dedicated music teacher in all aspect! you Rock Fil 🤘😊
I never would have caught that the pitches were drifting because I didn't hear the flat/sharp tones. A lovely group and it was interesting listening to you pointing out the differences between this and the first video.
Thoughts on acapella singing... Based on my experience in an acapella chamber choir I agree with Fil: the voices in the group are "in/on pitch" with each other. Our performances went like this: "Ken" used a pitch pipe to get the pitch for the first song. He hummed his base pitch and we all took our pitches from it. "Ken" had perfect pitch so when one song ended he would move up/down the appropriate interval and hum the bass pitch for the next song. And on and on. So we took one pitch from the pitch pipe and the rest of the performance was all based on relative pitches.
You should check out The Roches, especially their a cappella rendition of "Hallelujah Chorus" from Handel. It's back the late 70s/early 80s. It's a trio of sisters, basically. Unfortunately we've lost one of them to cancer a few years ago, and they no longer perform as The Roches, but often do guest spots on the albums of their kids. :)
Right, it's like a flock of birds twisting and swooping but totally in sync. It's beautiful.
I love your analysis. I am learning a lot, especially about why I like some recordings more than others. I enjoyed this song, but the last one by this group, not so much. The raw emotion really comes through so much more powerfully in this one.
I love choirs, and this one is brilliant.♥️
Thanks for the analysis.
Great vid Fil. Spot on on why some people, me, simply can not get into modern music. The production is dreadful these days. Auto tuning and pitch correction doesn't mean a singer is bad, but how on earth will we ever know?? I have been forced to listen to contemporary stations for long periods of time and I honestly feel as though I haven't heard a single voice during that time. Whoever got the notion that perfect pitch was the essence singing should be the first against the wall.. Incidentally, I do have a rather tuned ear and I did notice the group came in sharp when the melody changed, but I simply noticed it. It registered unconsciously but in context of the whole performance, as you say, it simply doesn't matter. Really glad you showed this group a second time. You'd almost think there were twice as many on stage as there were. Fantastic. Must give this group a listen.
Thank you Fil for making this video!
You validated the actual skill of Voctave as a vocal group and highlighted some of the technical things a high-level a cappella ensemble can do. Great points about high-level active listening, staying in sync with each other (pitch-wise and dynamics-wise) during pitch transitions including when going "sharp" or “flat” as a unit. In this case (of a vocal-only group) the terms “sharp” or “flat” may seem to convey an impression of “poor technique” to people who just watch which one video or of context, which is unfortunate.
In my view, your use of the pitch monitor (which uses 440Hz equal temperament) is to show, through analyzing obviously good singers, that the human voice is not designed (or supposed) to strictly conform to the limits of that tuning system, which is more applicable to some musical instruments.
Pitch "correction" for vocals is pitch "manipulation", with the effect of makonv the voice sound inhuman or like a instrument, ultimately distorting the humanity in the actual vocal expression. The most annoying part is when people that can't hit pitches on a good day use the technology to create a false idea to the public that that's how they sound (rather than making the effort to learn how to use their voice properly),thus robbing good singers of recognition of their actual talent and hardwork as they get to be compared against the artificiality of pitch correction.
Sadly, I don't think it's possible to completely obliterate the use of some effects on A Cappella studio recordings in particular since: (1.) they are a reflection of the increasing use of technology in the music industry as a whole and, (2.) their releases will be in competition for “radio play” with non-acappella music.
One acceptable thing they might do in editing an acappella recording is bringng parts that were low in volume when sung up to the same level as other parts (so everything can be heard) since low pitches (e.g. bass parts) tend to travel slower and get drowned out by higher pitches (soprano, tenor) just based on the frequencies. The producer or engineer may feel the vocal expression does not carry over to the listener because of the levels and edit accordingly.
The real issue as you've been stating all this while is pitch "correction".
I'm glad you did this video. To let us hear how they can sing.. I got chills (music heaven) . Different people with different voices making some real sounds and making it sound beautiful. I have a cassette recording of Manhatten Transfer who sing acapella. Thanks for this video 👍🙂👍
Another way to look at the topic is: all of the labeled notes are just names for preselected frequencies that are at specific multiples of each other. The human ear and brain only perceive the ratio between each frequency. The specific frequencies don't mater as long as the ratios stay the same. The reason being perfectly accurate to predetermined frequencies is important is when you try to blend with instruments that can't change what frequency they make.
I love acapella groups and their arrangements! Voctave is great as are Home Free, Pentatonix and Voiceplay. My favorite classical vocal ensemble is Voces8- heavenly Early Music as well as modern, like Eric Whitacres’s works. Would love to see you react to them too!
Me too. Voces8 are absolutely lovely to listen to. Their bass is awesome. The sound is great for just 8 singers…
I didn’t like this performance, personally. Too busy!
Hi Karen how are you doing
I do love choral music, very much. One of my (late) uncles was in a choir. This is a very interesting analysis video. Cheers, Fil! ✌️
Thanks for this video. They sounded so good in this performance. I like how you explained how the editing takes away the human quality of the voice despite making it hit the "right" notes; it's the fluidity and imperfections that make the vocals sound real and to connect to listeners.
Thank you, thank you Fil!! This is a beautiful analysis. They sound fantastic and HUMAN! Their gorgeous voices reflect true, human emotion/s that the listener can relate to. This performance registers on a deep and real emotional level and the arrangement was incredible. The piece was a beautiful journey in which the listener is emotionally invested. I love this kind of performance. The first recording simply did not do them justice. I'd much rather hear a few "imperfections" as opposed to the robotic, artificial vocal sound of the recording. The beauty of choral singing is that the singers around you, side to side of you, and in back of you, all influence your own vocal performance. This is an example of technical excellence while executing emotion-filled vocals. The first soprano/s nailed that D#6 in the final bar of the finale which sounded/felt like a dotted eighth note. Impressive. Yes, some aspects of the vocals need to be tightened up but overall it's a lovely effort. I would have preferred a bit less vibrato (more of a straight tone) overall, especially at the close of a phrase. (Am I nitpicking? Probably. But with these changes, the performance would have been near-perfect in my eyes). The higher voices relied on the lower voices for tempo which could have been just a tad slower. It's always exciting to listen to and watch truly talented vocalists. What a shame their producer/s manipulate their recorded vocals to such a degree. Disney, if you're listening and if you care: *Please stop with the overuse of technology! All of your vocal artists sound like chipmunks! You sign talented, capable singers to your label and then you assault their vocals in the studio in post production. Just stop the insanity!* I really loved this analysis and commentary Fil, thanks again! 🎤🎶🙋🏻♀️🥰🔥🔥🦋
Much more natural voicing. Real, true.
Can you do either Home Free or Voiceplay? I would love to see you analyze an acapella group with someone that sings below bass.
Love Home Free.
yes, please. Home Free !!!
I got it when you played the first video. Absolutely. Love the two comparisons. It was very obvious. I also agree with you they are very solid live without electrical assistance. I also prefer everything live. I try not to be critical but I do play two instruments and it’s hard not to notice. In fact I can pick it up rather quickly. My son has played the viola since age three and joined a college orchestra at the age of nine. Than came the guitar….goodness..he spent literally…..thousands of hours playing. His mother and I could attest to that. Although just twenty he is a much better guitarist than I am and I have played for forty years. I have noticed like dad….his favorite groups are fantastic musicians. An example would be, Rush. The best live performances we have witnessed was Union Station and Beth Hart with Joe Bonamassa. Cheers.
Love the analysis Fil, while I do like Voctave, guessing V is roman 5, this it what sets voiceplay apart, everything is done inhouse and always perfect. Even if you don't like the actual track, you have to appreciate the effort put in
I’m going to see Voctave in concert in a week. I already am a huge fan, and this video reinforced that. I think an a cappella group like this is akin to a school of fish when it comes to the tuning. A tight, cohesive unit that may flow up or down a bit!
Cool!
I love pentatonix.
You should listen to Voctave doing The Great Movie Medley. Not only are they doing a lot of instrumental arrangements but they are onstage with only one microphone.
Also, I believe I’m the one who gave you the advice to listen to them live, so I appreciate you listening to what your subscribers say.
The depth of her voice will blow your mind.
This angel is one of the best singers (incredible extremely low vocal, dramatic contralto + polyphonic voice) in the world!
I invite you to discover this wonderful talented young singer.
Please make reaction to Diana Ankudinova.
I was stunned to find that the first performance (Show "You are Super") I heard was when she was 14!!!!
She's now 18 and still developing. She sings in Russian, French, English, Spanish and Arabic.
The covers she performed on that show are very popular on TH-cam. Many TH-camrs publish reactions on these performances, which include "Can't Help Falling In Love", "Crow", "Personal Jesus" (all 18 y.o.), "Wicked Game", "Human" (15 y.o.), "Derniere Danse", "It's a Man's Man's Man's World" (14 y.o.), "Take On Me" (17 y.o.) and others.
Please react to one of Diana's songs and I promise she will surprise you.
Oh, and great content. New subscriber here!
Thanks!
@@wingsofpegasus absolutely welcome!
I can take an O-scope or My Submarine Sonar equipment and make micro-volt/frequency changes jump off the screen. Electronics don't lie. I was disappointed to see the almost perfect flat lines rendered by software during their studio performance. But now we seem to be going both ways with the reader's comments. The human ear is not as sensitive, so we need to watch a piece of equipment to prove it. "I didn't like the sound on the first song, but this is OK".
You could often hear the same comments when CD's were replacing Vinyl discs decades ago. Superior sig-to-noise ratio and separation, but you could 'hear' the digital steps in the music as opposed to the pure sine wave. I get it. Sometimes live performances crush a studio version for many reasons. But overall, Voctave is a group of amazing singers (most singing for Disney), singing wonderfully arranged songs by their producer Jamie,(a member of the group.) He arranges the songs to showcase (showoff) the individual members. To me, they are a showcase of pro's making a living , at the top of their craft, in a world of mostly young ,sexy, auto-tuned, choreographed dancers....chosen to sing songs written by committee.
Angelina Jordan, is another LOVED singer here on TH-cam, with millions of followers...me included. Her editing, phrasing and mature choices on Songs like "All I ask" by Adele is emotional. Frankly, better and warmer than Adele. I don't know if she is being auto-tuned or not. She's a breath of fresh air for my ears. Her version of "Summertime" at age 8 on Norway's got talent , is special whether it's live auto-tuned or not. Fil, check her out and compare the two performances. Clearly, it does not have to be perfect to connect with a lyric and your heart. That is really what's most important.
Great job as usual!
All of your analysis videos are so fun to watch (although I havent watched them all, yet) and very educational. It's easy to learn from you because you have a unique way of teaching and keeping my attention.
This is so much better than the homogenized milk sound of pitch correction. This was full of character and brightness, instead of smoothed over bleck.
You have redeemed yourself, in regards to my comments from previous video. I may have misunderstood your analysis, prior, thinking you were saying that the group uses a keyboard for fake background harmonies and such.
The problem with technology, as you are using to demonstrate, and you clearly explain it’s downfall of using the software. That the ear will perceive the note or chord being in tune, yet the software will show it as being off.
I always believed that Voctave used technology, but I only assumed it was for blending and clarity. I thought, as I stated in previous comment, that you were putting them into the category of Arianna Grande, PTX, Voiceplay and others, who clearly, without question, use multi track and auto tune. To the point where I find them painful to listen to.
Accept my apology for my previous comments, as I now understand the technology which I was ignorant about, and just didn’t know existed.
I’m glad you found this live version to analyze. Peace.
Love your videos....
Fil, here's one you might want look at... Voctave with Rachel Potter adding the theatricals of voiceplay. Wonder if Rachel had some influence in this
I LOVE Voctave, and I LOVED this analysis! I subscribed even before I was finished!! Great job! If I were you, I would avoid doing this sort of analysis with Home Free, Pentatonix, or VoicePlay. Many of those fans will absolutely go bonkers if their fav groups are shown to be even SLIGHTLY imperfect! No criticism allowed!!
You are absolutely right about them singing in perfect tune with each other, but that's not a lesser kind of perfectness, it's just the only one. Physically there's only one principle for the intervals and chords to sound perfect and it's only achieved in a capella singing. Any equal temperament is inherently out of perfect tune. Todays de facto standard 12-tet equal temperament, despite being reasonably close to perfect, only providing a single truly perfect interval which is octave, with fifths and fourths being the next closest ones to their perfect counterparts only deviating by about 2 cents.
The fact that Voctave almost came back to the original pitch was in no way intentional, but a simple coincidence, with the deterministic end as a result of all the chord progressions and modulations in the song. In the sake of perfect sounding chords, the group drifted collectively, but not in parallel. Each voice would differ from "standardized" to a different extent since no chord exists with two notes coinsiding in pitch with a "standard" temperament. Again, the exceptions are octaves, which are perfect even in the "standard" and fourths and fifths, which are too close to perfect to be distinguished.
Again, you are right that there's no key! Indeed, there's no key in any acoustically perfect music in the sense it's intended to be in contemporary western music. Only natural modes are perfect acoustically and they had been abandoned in pursuit of standardizing music and achieving equal division of the octave (not everywhere, though). As for instrumental music, archichemballo was the last goodbye from the western music to perfct intonation, but nothing could be done with a capella singing, because rules of physics work independently of human choice to sacrifice perfectness to global standardization. Vocal chords will find natural perfect resonances and you can't resist it forcefully as you could with strings or electronics.
What a great band.
Oh, right, an A Capella vocal group. You really know how to present these videos, this performance needed to be played the whole way through and let us exalt in it's splendor. And your analyses was a great compliment.
Was that Paul McCartney on bass? Didn't he say it isn't a C until the bass player plays a C?
Thanks Fil ..... I'm starting to "get it" ........ my musical "ear" is, at best, average but (like you pointed out) most of us can hear/see "in sync" performances ..... I have been watching a lot of voctave videos the last couple of days and it seems that too many of the "studio and location" performances have been doctored in post. I noticed that at least two, and possibly three songs were done during the same session that "Disney Princess medley " was recorded (your first review) - because the clothing was the same but the position of the singers was shifted for different songs ...... It's too bad that this post procedure is deemed necessary by those who move sliders and run cables ....... just sayin ........ keep up the good work
Okay I must say while I generally agree with you... I think your point around 14:00 is not correct. When I listened to the song, I heard that part you call "drifting sharp" (upon restarting into "Joy to the world!" a second time) instead as an intentional KEY CHANGE. I mean, you measured it, they distinctly all shift their pitch up, together, at a relevant point in the arrangement where modulating upward would make sense. I thought that makes it extra impressive, since pulling off a coordinated key change acapella is harder than simply staying in one key. I agree that in other places there's some pitch drift going on, but at that spot in particular it really feels like a musical choice to me rather than an accident.
It isn't a key change for 3 reasons.
1) they end back on the D# without a clear point of modulation.
2) there wasn't a proper modulation in the first place.
3) in western music there would never be a modulation of a quarter tone, which is how much they shift. A composer/arranger would simply never write that because our western ear isn't even trained to hear/sing quarter tones, and our instruments can't play them.
Gad! Those high notes!!
With barbershop in practice, there was a note given at the start of a song and then when we got to the end the note was given again and we could see how much we had drifted, usually downwards, and it was strange to hear because we didn't realise we were drifting apart from the bass section feeling like they were having to sing lower! So in barbershop and probably any a capella singing it is quite important to be able to stay in key so that all sections are singing within their range :)
The director of our Barbershop chorus told us to imagine we were standing “tippi-toe”. It helped!
Fil. Thank you!....Now i understand what you meant in the first video.They are amazing, period. I believe them singing live brings more "life" to the music. Don't get me wrong... their recordings are wonderful. I love these guys! Nobody, even those who are supposed to have perfect pitch, are perfect all the time. Most likely not even close to it! That is due to being humans. :) Maybe you could watch their Great Movie Medley, an ode to the great John Williams movie theme songs. Only 1 song has lyrics. The rest, they are the "orchestra" . Normally they have 11 people (2 bases,1 baritone) 3 tenors, 2 altos, 1 sop/alto and 2 sopranos, one being a true colorature soprano. In the Great Movie medley they have 9 members singing. And I believe that ,from bass to soprano, they have achieved a 5 octave range before. ( lol maybe that is what Voctave means... Roman numeral V + octave ?).
For fun....here they are singing in a cafe after breakfast just for the heck of it. How awesome would it be to sing in a group like this!!
th-cam.com/video/tWEwrZs73UI/w-d-xo.html
This simply sounds much better than the other video. Honestly, I don't object to post-processing if it improves the sound, but when it's ruining great music as it clearly was in the other video, which sounded unpleasant to me....
Wide range was unsettling - but real
I would love to see you analyze Christina aquilera . ❤️ or have you done it.
You reviewed a TH-cam sacred cow. Part of me wishes you did the Pentatonixs first to see people really lose their minds.
Fil, since you are currently focusing on electronic analysis of singers' voices with pitch monitoring software, you should examine the best female singer currently on the planet--Sohyang! I'm sure your subscribers will be astonished to see what a great singer she is and will absolutely love exploring her catalogue of LIVE performances. 👍💘😉
If it sounds good , It is good , Joe Meek👍
Would you analyze a Stevie Nicks song, please
Apparently I should have looked for a live performance before writing off Voctave some time ago. (Not that I can necessarily distinguish pitch correction, I just thought they were trying to sound like a keyboard.) Thanks for the video!
Forget any other request I've made and help me out with this one. There has been an ongoing argument here in Australia about Guy Sebastion since he one the first Australian Idol back in 2003 one side say's he can't sing and uses autotune then there is the side I'm on that says he doesn't. I have to know the answer the argument has gone on way to long. I think the best song for you to analyze is Battle Scars acoustic version live home front.
Pentatonix are the top of this class. Acapella masters. You’d think there is a drum kit in Kevin’s mouth! Please check them out.
Uhm. Top? Singing live? Not necessarily I think.
@@TheSeeking2knowUmm…yes…they are.
@@chrispavlich9656 Uhm, VoicePlay? Maytree? VOCTAVE? There are a lot of high-level a cappella groups out there, and many musical styles they incorporate, so I am averse to declaring one the "top of the class", especially when PTX are primarily pop-oriented in most of their work.
@@TheSeeking2know When you say “top”, I’m going by the number of Grammys and awards an artist has won. And how are the others any different as they are one trick ponies with their own genres?
Since they're always shifting keys, I wonder if some of the shifting was on purpose.
They're not shifting keys, just drifting sharp and flat.
@@wingsofpegasus yes but one of their trademarks in most of their music is that they always do keyshifts and things so that's why I'm questioning.
@@beep7 Yes a keyshift is changing the key by a semitone or more, singers never intentionally shift any less than that as it is not measurable. They would also then be out of tune with any instrumentation if any were playing.
Having been in a variety of choral groups including a barbershop chorus, I can appreciate the effort and dedication that goes into this kind of performance but for me it felt like there was a rather strident edge and a frenetic feel and also differing loud vibrato from some singers which made the whole sound less together as a unit and more like a collection of slightly competing voices trying to sing louder than each other, not the lower voices so much, rather the higher ones. I have heard some amazingly well blended barbershop choirs who are better balanced and that makes such a difference in the overall sound. When I was in a ladies barbershop choir it was clear that the bass voices really had to work hard to provide that solid foundation to ground everything and for the other sections to build upon and to hold the pitch up otherwise it could slowly drop over the course of a song and end up with the bass section struggling to go lower and lower which of course showed that the pitch was dropping too much.
Yeah...one of the sopranos is really shrill, and the 2 sopranos have very different vowel placement which ruins the blend.
I think the number of voices (and their individualism) makes it a bit harder to carry out these blends than a barbershop quartet.
Please make a reaction to Diana Ankudinova, you will be amazed at her voice. No wonder Diana is called the queen of goosebumps.
Sry, I was knocked off your most recent cele b ration when hit something wrong, I wish I could have finished your great video with the war scenes and looked like military tanks. Please give me the link. I would love to finish it.
you were talking about them being in sync. It's worth pointing out what happens to the human brain and percussions. the human brain will actually match frequency with the percussion causing a "shift" in perspective. It's why we "Feel" music. It takes about 10 min. which is condemnation of singles. (short 3 min. or less songs) Many of us grew up listening to albums, so for us music is far far more than a 3 min. blurb. I think is why people are really hearing pitch correction. the songs are too short for them notice.
I realize this is a year old. I have a question for anyone who might know.... does a person with "perfect pitch" always hit notes 'on the line?'
It's okay. People get very protective of their favorite singing groups.
I dropped Pentatonix when they dropped acapella practice. They are even hauling a piano around now but people still get angry at me for saying they are no longer an acapella band.
I’m sure they are losing sleep over you leaving them. Widen your horizons sister.
Maybe I have missed the analysis but have you done one for Voice Play? "If I Were A Rich Man" or "Hoist the Colors"?
No not yet!
Hey Fil. Loving your channel! I've downloaded the analyzer app and enjoying the exploration of artist talents! I know, probably not very 'popular' with others, but I am familiar with many early film vocal artists. I believe they truly had to prove and sustain their talent to earn their recognition honestly with very, very little post production audio correction, if any. I don't know how to do the track isolation, but just using this audio clip of Susanna Foster, (th-cam.com/video/p0lPv3XFNXk/w-d-xo.html) I can see her incredible expertise and technique! She had an enormous range, dynamic, and control, and could jump amazingly, I think using an operatic technique of landing solidly a tinge sharp and vibrato-ing into perfect pitch. And as all professional sopranos did, using rubato to make you sit on the edge of your seat and lean in, in anticipation of her next note! Check out her pitch, range and jumps on the analyzer!
This performance was very Choir like. This arrangement is quite difficult to pull off. You need be very conscious of your part while listening to everyone else. Blending is key (this is like mixing). No one should be sticking out. I think at one time there was three different vocal lines. The arrangement was great. The way the sopranos can stick out is by being to loud which can be easy to do.
The fact that I have been in choirs an a acapella praise team. I can appreciate it in all its glory. You are right when you say there needs to be an ebb and flow in music. Music needs to mingle that's what makes it interesting.
On a final note Fil how is your arm? You were moving it quite a bit in this video.
I think I'm most impressed that these women can sing in high heels. I have to wear comfortable, flat shoes when I sing.
I know a lot of vocalists who only sing in heels because they have better posture that way. Meanwhile, I'm in the Measha Brueggergosman camp, preferring to be barefoot if I can!
great followup. I agree that production if not careful can dull out the expression of the live performance. I have heard so many performances where live is far better than the studio/album version. Producers need to wake up in this regard IMHO.
My question is why use pitch correction and auto tune when it is not needed? Are we just giving someone a job?
Kind of amazed you didn't point out that a cappella has a long tradition of not even USING the "equal tuning" pitch software requires. In barbershop groups work endlessly to achieve that perfect (literally) overtone series where 4 voices produce 5 notes due to constructive interference of the wave forms. Something Equal tuning can necessarily never create.
Thanks Fil.. one of the great vocal groups would be Manhattan Transfer and I don't think you've covered the voice of the great Roberta Peters.. any one of her Ed Sullivan clips are spectacular..
I would love to see an analysis of Manhattan Transfer. I’m still unable to hear the flat and sharp notes Fil talks about, but to me they are about as “pitch perfect” as you can get.
I think it quite interesting that you have only critiqued one acappella group out of the 4 most popular and in a way slammed the one you have critiqued. It would be interesting to see your comments on Pentatonix, Home Free and Voiceplay. If your analysis of those three are comparable to your analysis of Voctave, then I applaud your critiques. If not, then I will be somewhat disappointed. I have seen Voctave live and your explanation of their live performance was very good.
He didn't slam the group at all. He critiqued the production because it takes away from the quality of the group.
I would now say, in a roundabout way, that FIL analyzing Voctave is actual high praise because they can actually deliver their vocal performance and arrangements at a close enough level to the studio.
The other groups may not be as tight live, especially for more complex arrangements. I've heard PTX sing their Grammy-winning "Daft Punk Medley" live multiply times and it's underwhelming. I realize, apart from any corrections, what they attempted to do with just 5 voices was going to be difficult to replicate live.
Edit: Not saying he didn't praise them, but rather that his choosing them (and not the others) is praise enough in the context of this followup video
I don't think it necessarily takes many years of training to sing well in a group, if you can naturally sing in tune, regular rehearsing can result in great performances in a relatively short time :)
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Fil tries so hard to explain this, for people who don't really understand. You're doing it perfectly Fil, but when people hear what THEY perceive to be perfection? It's almost impossible to accept what you're saying- just for some, because they can't hear it- at least yet. It takes TRAINING- which is what you're trying to do, lol.
So you're going to always get people who are not there yet.
A beautiful song, sung brilliantly, just FLOWS- like an undisturbed river. It sounds calm, and calming. And it takes you on a journey, safely.
Allow MANKIND to step in, place logs, rocks, old tires & cars in the river? And you get a Turbulent, rough-sounding/ running, river. You can HEAR the river forcing it's way around the obstacles, and creating churning waters, that you can actually HEAR. And it sounds like ... DANGER.
People who KNOW what that river sounded like BEFORE all the debris was placed in it? KNOW the way it sounds NOW- is totally different, than what it's SUPPOSED to sound like.
Before- Calming.
After- Dangerous- or, it can also be said- "That something's not right".
THIS is what Fil is trying to show you.
The river in and of itself is GOOD, even life-giving; water, fish, cleansing.
But allow man to insert HIS actions? And he can totally change what's NATURAL, into something that SOUNDS, unnatural.
Hello, discover the world of Diana Ankudinova, a young singer from Russia and a talented artist. You will be surprised by the strength and beauty of her voice, you can believe me or not, but, listen to her. Please pay attention to Diana. Thanks for attention. Good luck.
It'll be interesting to know your opinion on the best female contralto in the world 🌎 Diana Ankudinova!
Beautiful voices joining to make beautiful music. They don’t need pitch correction software. I bet that the Disney people required it on the previous video to keep the sound of those songs consistent with what’s been heard for so many years. Thanks Fil.
You have a good point about Disney.
I should show this to some of our section leaders who get annoyed when we've dropped in pitch by the end of a song - we're too busy connecting 😁
The level of annoyance all depends on how significant the drop was. LoL
If it's negligible they shouldn't care. Whole step or more? Problems. The audience will start to notice and it could cause problems with notes becoming too low.
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This. Thisthisthis.
What irritates me most about it, is when I'm telling someone that can't hear it that there's just something "off", about a performance, that automatically I must hate the group or artist.
No, what I hate is when someone tries to technically "perfect" something that's already perfect, because all vocals are made of vibrations that have natural variations.
Manual pitch correction IS unnatural, and sounds so wrong, so mechanical, and falls very flat on the ears, unlike the effervescent rise and fall as in this performance and only after watching your videos was I actually proven correct that it was "off" by being technically programmed to be pitch-perfect. It's really nice to know that my ears still function properly, and that I don't need to second-guess my "gut".
It's honestly like listening to my kiddo play his Violin. Hearing every note of his warm-up is precisely sharp, telling him it's sharp.
Having him say, "I know, but my instructor retuned it because she said it was super flat, even though it sounded bang-on to me."
I told him his ears(he's got perfect pitch, and uses his tuner afterward just to make sure, because off-days do happen) and his Korg tuner are his best friends, and whenever there's doubt, show the instructor on his tuner, because the tuner is programmed to be exactly technically perfect, despite what her ears are picking up on a certain day.
In an orchestral ensemble like that, having indiviual instruments be off-pitch throws it all off, unlike in choirs, where they all shift in and out equally as a unit, which is why for competition, they tune not by ear, but with a tuner, so every instrument is technically tuned to be pitch-perfect, because they need it to be, whereas for concerts, the Concert Master may tune sections a bit sharp or flat based on what they want the sound overall to be like, and work it into the orchestra as a whole.
I'm not sure if this makes any sense, to most, but it's how I explained to people what I was hearing before seeing your analysis videos.
With all due respect to their great voices, but it's not my cup o' tea.
The A-capella I like to listen to is "Voice Male & Belle perez" with "Hijo de la Luna".
Don't know whether they use atotune or pitch correction, but this song has a emotional meaning to me.
This is it:
th-cam.com/video/a6ypj8dAP00/w-d-xo.html
Maybe you could analyse it.
But then again maybe it's not that good enough. But I love it.
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Karen Carpenter was very precise in hitting the notes accurately over and over, she just did that naturally?
He has analysed her. She's not dead on perfect all the time. No one is.
@@carr0760 I have seen it and I never said she was.
I’m surprised but it seems that Fil hasn’t reacted to Angelina Jordan, yet. Although there are videos of her performing since she was 6 years old, I would recommend that he starts at what she does now, at 16. I would like to hear what Fil thinks of her.
I saw a reaction by one reactor that said he could hear Angelina used autoktone in one video. I have tried so long to find it again, to Ask Fil if that is correct. Since I started to follow Fil I have been learning so much, and I can´t hear any song by Angelina and say it is autotuned. I sure hope Fil will react to Angelina. Pretty please Fil 😘
There's a message on her videos requesting for them not to be used by other channels, so I don't want to step on anyone's toes!
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Voces8.
I’ll just leave that there lol.
There was a lot going on in this performance - too much for me - but it’s a personal taste thing. It was better than the sugary sweet autotuned crap from Disney, that’s for sure. Give me natural voices every time, perfect or not.
Thanks Fil. So interesting :)