the main prob with tank is blizzard trying to remove the solo carry potential of the role. They're obsessed with this mmo style tank archetype of sitting around soaking up dmg and attention and waitng for your dps/supps to do something. Healing/survivability is way too high, to the point where 3 man shatters often get cleansed/immort/life griped/petal'd and nobody dying. What once used to be game winning plays are now completely shut down by power creep.
That's so true. Life grip especially pisses me off sometimes. It's just a get out of jail free card with no counter play. Makes it impossible to secure kills on open maps.
I think part of the reason this happened is because people wanted supports to have more options and not have to run away from everything, but the scale is kind of tipped a bit too far in the other direction.
Hi I played overwatch one. I enjoyed playing zarya and Winston I specifically enjoyed balancing how I created space with a main tank like rein. The issues are spot on in these video. But even before ow2 and 5v5 when tank mains voiced thier inability to enjoy thier role the matches sucked. Bar none. This may be separate but tbh tanks really weren't given to many options like counter picking. Damage heros had made up most of the character roster and thus so many interactions are to be considered in that class. In the beginning ow1 though i dont think this wasn't a consideration because you chose from 4 class types instead of 3. And I do think that changed how people thought about the game. But I was a support main so I have a bias in that my tanks concerns were important to me since their role is important to winning the game because the space they can create. Thats why CC was always a main gripe in the community over the years
@@Casual314 As a support player, I really feel like supports DIDN'T need more options. It's just that certain tanks were very broken in the early stages of overwatch 2 and needed to be tuned down. It's not that support was bad, people just don't know how to play their role and they needed blizzard to give them a crutch in order to be good; and now here we are.
One thing I hated when I was a lower rank tank is since everyone has horrible aim they just all see the big thing that they can hit and throw all of their damage and cooldowns at you since they know they can actually hit you.
Yeah when my aim was much worse, I found myself resorting to shooting the tank a lot because I didn't have the aim to hit the smaller targets, so it felt like I was at least getting some value by shooting the tank instead of the air.
Agreed lol switching from DPS to Tank recently in lower ranks it felt like I was getting hit with every cool down in the game. On DPS I try my best to not shoot the tank and only spam for ult charge when I almost have ult so I never realized how much other people spammed tanks.
@@Casual314 That exactly my point I feel like a lot of high rank creators keep saying “Why are you shooting the tank? Stop shooting the tank?” But for a lot of low rank players they can’t hit anything else so they shoot the tank so they get feeling like they are doing something since it makes that little ding sound when you hit stuff and makes you feel useful.
@@devdog7409 Oh I wasn’t aware of that I just noticed it with my little brother because whenever I tell him to stop shooting the tank he tells me he likes feeling like he can hit something lol
Diamond/Masters tank main: You make some good points here, soaking up damage isn’t what tank mains want to do all day. I like getting value in playmaking and being a presence. In the rock/paper/scissors of switching tanks, sometimes it boils down to Orisa vs. orisa which can be feel so dull and this video captured some of what I felt in those games
just force the tank you wanna play get good at counter match ups and enjoy playing the gamer. I just play doom into everything and have been rolling people. Every single match it ends up im playing doom into orisa sombra bastion ana, its whatever, makes you a better player. I still find tank to be the most fun role by far even if its no longer the pwoer house it may have been. Before doom I just forced Sig, if people on your team wanna complain then to bad, Im here to have a good time and win in the manner I want to win.
@@michaelc5095 As a fellow Doom main who also never swaps, I also really love playing into counters and getting better. The issue I have mainly is that even on Doom, with as much carry potential that he has, it still feels like I'm limited by both my and the enemy supports. There are times I hit all cooldowns perfectly, and no one dies because there's just soooo many get out of jail free card abilities nowadays. Baiting out abilities also doesn't always work because there's enough that the enemy team can effectively just cycle these crutch abilities. Not to mention that its hard to get a team that can competently play dive, or at least try and synergize with me.
@shark1820 I dont disagree with you that that can be an issue and is annoying, I just don't see it as tanks being to weak its simply support it to strong. Buffing tanks isn't the answer it only contributes to the issue where everything is getting power creeped on, just nerf supports and I think a global damage and heal nerf in general would be good for the game. Say 10 or so percent
@@michaelc5095 whole heartedly agree, tanks def don't need to be buffed, it's the heal creep and the devs trying to buff problems away as every solution. I just hope they make actual meaningful changes without it being just another wrist slap like Orisa fortify, while also not nerfing a whole swathe of their characters into trash tier.
To be fair, the tank role wasn’t liked in OW1 either. I believe it was one of the main reasons they moved to 5v5 to cut down on queue times. I do think OW2 is worse though. I think it’s more of the power creep from supports but having 6v6 back would fix the rps and being focused down by the whole team.
I think my main problem with the tank role currently is the rock paper scissors nature of it. Seems like once you reach the rank where you’re really at your limit, you have to have the right tank pick for the right moments. A lot of games are decided by a single team fight, and it sucks when you’re at 70% ult charge on Zarya, but you’d be much better off playing Winston. Making the right call is super tough and doesn’t feel great when you make the wrong decision.
"It sucks when you're at 70% ult charge on Zarya, but you'd be much better off playing Winston..." and this is why in order for anyone to become a better player you need to spend time playing your chosen hero into their counters so that you can learn how to better play to your advantages and minimize your disadvantages WITHOUT relying on a hero swap. There are tons of win scenarios that don't allow you to swap and you absolutely MUST play your hero in spite of the team comp your playing. For example, if you're playing attack on an escort map and hit point C in overtime and you're playing Winston and now the DPS swap to Reaper to contest you on point C, you better be quite familiar at playing around a Reaper as Winston if you hope to have any chance of getting your win. Swapping is simply not an option in overtime and your team still expects you to be a good tank regardless of what swaps the enemy team made. Obviously don't practice this in Competitive, but you definitely should spend time playing into your hero's counters specifically because of these kinds of scenarios. Alot of times a win condition relies on you playing well against disadvantages even if it's for only about 15-20 seconds.
Man this is for real. You've been tanking and absorbing damage since 10min, swinging hammer in the corner while shielding everyone... And if your team do nothing with the space you made, then it's tank diff and you get blamed everytime. I'm Reinhardt OTP and I've seen a lot (and I mean, A LOT) of games where I'm doing very well and then "Tank diff" pop in the chat for no reason.
I think that the role who is meant to take the most abuse from the other roles (that is the philosophy in tank blizzard has) should also be the role that can do the most. Imo this is not just because it would be fair but also to ensure que times for the other roles don't go through the roof
Tank is lame to play because the supports are way too impactful. In my anecdotal experience of tanking, the game is honestly decided by whichever team's supports play better. You can pop off on tank, get top damage, top elims, and the fewest deaths in the lobby, carry several teamfights single-handedly, but at the end of the game all that mattered was which team's supports got the most value. You will win plenty of games by forcing supports into making mistakes, but you will lose an equal amount of games for when your own supports are making those same mistakes. It's all just a coin flip. I don't play much comp these days, but when I last queued tank my Zarya win rate was dead 50/50, and I can honestly say that I played pretty well in mostly all of those games. Switched over to support, 90% winrate with Baptiste. Maybe my Baptiste is just insane, but I feel like it's more of a game design issue than me actually being good at the game. Supports just have way too much agency over who is going to win the game, and the tanks and DPS are just along for the ride.
@@mylegguy8115so what you’re saying is, they aren’t allowed to do anything else apart from play overwatch 24/7. Otherwise they aren’t actually good at the game. Are you alright?
Nobody said it better than you. I am a gold tank, recently learning tank. I hate when I get an Ana who can’t aim, but the enemy Ana be hitting all her cooldowns. Am a bad tank player, but I agree 100% with what you said.
When I was climbing through gold I found a lot of success on my favorite tanks rein and Winston. But the moment I got to plat it felt as if not swapping to counter the tank was throwing.
It feels like the general flow of the game is that tanks are responsible for providing a team a direction. Basically setting up the front lines of the team fight (while also getting picks on the enemies support that are healing the enemy tank). Dps are responsible for killing the enemy teams support so they can kill the tank to make a push or killing the enemy teams dps to protect the friendly supports. support is responsible for keeping everyone alive during that while also trying to get a pick when possible.
The problem is, as soon as you tell another player what to do, they throw. Apparently everyone is perfect and can’t handle criticism in OW2. Diving 1v5 and dying is not my fault. It’s your fault.
This is also not the division of labour in overwatch above gold and hasn't been since like 2017. To start with supports are supposed to utilize their utility to create openings (see ana nade/discord/lucio speed) the tank provides a direction and the supports get you there. keep you alive while you are going and kill things once you get there. in overwatch 1 tanks also kept you alive on the way and helped with the DPS's job of securing kills specifically through the holding/taking of space. Tanks output a threat due to high close range damage and so entering the space they control or are claiming at the moment should be the death of you. since they only get to output that threat two feet in front of them. The problem was in the movement to OW2 and the loss of a tank they can no longer keep people alive in rotation (other than ram and zarya) because they need those cooldowns to keep themselves alive. so they no longer can be proactive. When they said we were going to Overwatch 2 and there would be no more offtanks they were wrong. there are no more maintanks. an offtank's job was to peel and hold space. a maintank's job was to claim space, extending their threat out into new territory. Tanks no longer have the oomph needed to claim space. multiple of them lose in close range 1v1s against the rest of the cast. while those characters also have long range options or better mobility. and so the tank is stuck holding space and waiting for someone to make a mistake
@@PoeticMistakes u said that’s not how the division of labor is utilized “above gold” and then said the same thing I did. I agree with what u said about tank tho somewhat. It’s kinda like the tanks are two boulders doing nothing but smashing against each other until one of them breaks. The diversity to this tho are tanks like JQ or Sigma than can punish supports pretty easily while on the frontline. And then doomfist, ball and Winston that dive and don’t even exist on the front line. Kinda like how u define a main tank. I do think some change is necessary though
@@nathanosman5606 telling people what to do in OW is never a good idea. Play around their weaknesses it’s the only way if they dive for no reason play aggressively but not stupid and maybe u can get a pick. Some people are just bad tho and it is what it is
Trash design then. The best space creation is by killing the enemies bar none and killing enemies is also why people play fps but blizzard keeps taking away tank ability to secure kills on their own. Why play tanks then?
Ive had more fun playing winston this season than anything else (im not a tank player at all) but the games you get rolled on tanks feels so so much worse than on any other role. On support i feel like atleast 80% of my losses are partly my fault. On tank its closer to 30-40%
The worst games are when the whole enemy team counter swaps you. Running winston into dva, reaper and bastion really sucks, especially because your teammates often don't understand that you need to play differently, so they run in and feed while you're trying to set up an engagement.
The other week I went on a whole rant about how annoyingly broken Support can be when playing ranked with my DPS main buddy. Basically I decided to fill as tank since we kept getting really bad Tanks in our DPS games. I do fairly well most games but every game comes down to what team had better supports. Had a really close game on Kings Row where I was initially getting somewhat diffed by the enemy Rein in our mirror matchup. We push em back to 3rd point just before the capture and by then I'm forcing this guy to swap his Rein and try other heros. It's looking fine until their turn to attack basically the tables turn because his support went Ana/Lifeweaver and mine decided to just stick to Moira/Kiriko/Brig despite clearly needing to switch. I'm struggling to make plays because everything I close the gap on is getting healed back up or life gripped away, finally I am forced to swap to Hog at the very last point because nothing is dying so I felt hooking off the map was literally my only option. They nano Rammatra, he runs in with his Annihilation ult, i hook him right off the side within a second. I get so hype thinking I just shut down 2 ults and we could win this and thennnnn he gets life gripped and we lose. Like I gets thats a sick play for the LW but it felt so shitty on my end. Everything a tank does can easily be negated by a support. You cant even knock a mfer off the map anymore.
That does sound like quite the frustrating experience. Of course there's always room for improvement win or lose, but sometimes you just get the short end of the stick.
On the other hand, if I was a Nano'd up Ramattra doing my ult and I just get yeeted off the map by a hook I really can't do anything about I'd be a little disappointed too. But I get what you're saying.
@@mohawkmeteor7189 That's bad positioning by Ramattra. the only thing you should be disappointed is your lack of foresight that there is high potential you will get enviro killed.
DPS has the lowest impact and supports have the highest impact. Tanks also have a high impact in general but in higher elo, they are very dependent on supports.
that is skill diff my frends. As a former master tank i can delete dva with solder. Easy. Not even mention other actual tankbusters. Dps is only hold down by even more busted supports.
Honestly, both tank and dps impacts have been decreased a lot lately due to the most recent support additions, involving bap. A lot of these can either dps as well if not better than a good chunk of the dps roster, and also provide highly impactful utility and ults. Burst damage abilities or ults are such down by cleanse and immortality way too easily, and other forms of damage can just be outhealed. Not to mention a lot of flanking class characters and plays have been made significantly harder to do their job because of these supports. Kiriko can 2 tap you/tp away/suzu, illari can simply gun you down whilst being healed by pylon, bap, well bap is just bap and i dont think i need to explain him. Ana, has been a community favourite for the entire time she was out, so you can't really touch her, but like widowmaker, with the removal of double shield, her abilities and primary have more opportunities to be used, and she's always been strong. And lifeweaver... Honestly, i think he might be one of the most problematic designs imo. With a bad team, you can't do much, but with a good team, I'd say his potential far outshines a lot of other supports. I'm sure everyone has experienced those games where it is a steamroll, and you struggle to get any eliminations, well, if the enemy tank or dps made a very punishable mistske, he can just pull them away and any chance of getting a comeback is lost. Ultimately, supports went from basically just healing, and boosting damage or movement speed (apart from ana) to cleansing any status effect, high burst healing, immortality, lots of mobility (which used to be exclusive to lucio) and so on. Those things alone shot up their influence so hard that other roles just feel helpless more commonly. If they add more of these types of supports, the impact of the other roles, and other supports will yet again lower.
Even as a bap main, I do think he's at least a bit overpowered. I think they're hesitant to nerf bap because of how unpopular he is to play in lower ranks.
@@Casual314 Being a flex player does help me experience a lot of the characters gameplay, their counters and so on. And with supports, namely Bap, kiriko, illari, ana and lifeweaver, those alone just feel unfair to use. Though most often than not, if my team is failing to get important eliminations on key characters like an ana, or pharah, or the doomfist, then i go bap. Even if i'm not able to kill them, i'm able to put a lot of pressure of them (with my very hit-all or miss-all aim) whilst still pumping out healing, just that causes the supports to have to focus on me, or heal themselves instead of the tank or dps, which allows my team to snowball the damage into kills. And speaking of low elo, i've been playing a lot of QP, and with how fickle matchmaking there is, i've experienced both low gold/silver lobbies, along with grandmaster and sometimes top 500, and what i've noticed is that supports in low elo ONLY healbot, they fail to utilize most of the character's kit - not potential-wise. Some characters in low elo however will always be played worse than others, and the same applies in high elo. This is the case for any game really, League, Dota etc. So i am quite glad they're nerfing "those" supports as they not only impact the game too much, but also highly overshadow a lot other supports.
@@ihavevisionfearme idk if you experienced this but, when my team gets spawn stumped i cant even get infinit health cuz i have to go deeper inside of spawn to get heals, so im just stuck in one little rom running back and forth with little space. ow2 devs need to make the whole spawn room a healing place or whatever its called, so we have a fighting chance.
@@Casual314 they need to nerf bap, illari, kiriko and ana. Those 4 are gatekeeping fun. Lifeweaver is annoying but has his weakness, the 4 I mentioned are cancerous to the game
@@khaledm.1476 Yeah, lifeweaver is not on the same lebel as the other 4, but feels close potentially due to the other support further making him harder to kill. Illari pylon, ana sleep, bap immortality and kiriko's suzu are usually used to save him when you're diving him, as if you dive his support, he can lifegrip them and platform them very easily. However i do still think his power needs to be toned down in some way, either his healing or survivability.
I like the Junkrat vs Pharah image, for how it feels to play tank currently. It's often that it feels obsolete to focus on specific targets other than the enemy tank, which most often is the main source of 'tank fun' that you'll get. But winning the tank fight is sometimes irrelevant to the overall state of the match, if your team loses to the enemy dps/supports after or while you've dealt with the other tank. Ofc there's always something one could have done better to aid your team, like not engaging the enemy tank, and thereby being closer to guard the flanks. But then you'll be giving up on the space you've created, letting the enemy move up on you anyway. Decision making as a tank, fills a bigger gap now, than it did in OW1 imo. Sometimes for the better, and sometimes for the worse.
I was smurfing in a gold lobby as a masters tank, best I ever heard was “tank you’re good” while I’m on ball, into all my counters, died once. Only time you ever hear a compliment as a tank is when you duo with someone, they notice your impact. Never once in ow 2 have I heard tank carry unless I tell the other tank player he carried.
Not like being praised for your tank gameplay doesn't exist, though. Masters in all roles, and I've heard praise being given to every role. On tank you're less likely to hear it as your impact on a game is a lot more subtle. Once some support utility has been nerfed, tank will become more playable. I don't think they will need buffs. The RPS matchups is another separate issue and has to do with the original role design from OW1. The unique kits of tanks, which were a positive in OW1 as it opened up many options in terms of counterplay and synergy, craft matchups that will make RPS a given.
No literally, the only time I ever get complimented while playing tank is when its by the enemy tank. I can go 31/2 with over 15k damage and 15k mitigated, hit 3 man ult kills and generally be a menace, and still get 0 compliments or endorsements. One time I had the most damage in the game, most mitigated, most elims on my team and least deaths on my team, and my Illari still said I was bad when they would overextend into the middle of the enemy backline and die. If we make a mistake, the loss is on us, but when we play perfectly, the win isn't on us. We can lose the game but we can't carry it
Playing tank is actually.. you kill 1 enemy distracting the other 2 and your whole team is chasing jellyfish in bikini bottom. And they say, "tank diff"
The 4 main reasons it feels terrible to play tank: -Your big impact plays are harder to pull off and get shut down way too easily. You have to bait so many cooldowns to make sure it doesn’t get negated or sometimes to even move up at all -You are focused too much and have to eat every unfun cooldown in the game -The Rock Paper Scissors nature of Tank makes it feel like you have to swap constantly to not be at a disadvantage -Many tanks are way too reliant on their team’s comp and skill. It’s very hard to do anything with ball if you have no follow up from your dps. Rein can feel really bad at times without speed boost. Other rolls don’t require as much flexing or help from their team to do what they are good at
I think especially tank needs more abilities like how bap's regen burst heals more if the person is critical, doomfist punch doing more damage if you block more damage, ball getting more hp if he uses shields around more enemies. Abilities whose effect depends on how you use it and give opportunities for skill expression and snowballing off good plays.
One thought is that tanks have a huge amount of impact but that impact is mostly indirect. If you have a good tank then your team has space to make plays and the entire team plays better, while if the other team has a better tank they you are under constant pressure and can't get anything done. The impact of a good tank gets hidden because it manifests itself in good stats for the rest of the team. If a support or DPS plays well it is usually because the tank is enabling them to play well. Also, if the enemy plays to counter the tank it means the tank is going to absorb a disproportional amount of the enemy team's resources while the rest of your team fights at an advantages.
That is true, and it's where the skill of tank comes from. From a win rate optimizing perspective though, that is why tank is so frustrating to play. Creating indirect impact is always good, but if that's the only thing you can do, then it's very difficult to win the amount of games you need to climb efficiently. It's the same reason that Lifeweaver is generally a bad choice for optimizing win rate. You don't have many options to fill the gaps of your team, so you will lose more often.
The support design philosophy I like to think about is Baptiste. Baptiste has crazy good healing and damage for a support, along with good abilities, but they're on a rather long cooldown. And you still need good ass aim to use your gun. He's very high skilled but also reward if you play him correctly. The problem is that supports have been getting more and more survivability, including Bap indirectly with newer supports giving more survivability, slowly making him go from feeling like he has 3 lives to 16 lives. It's not that every support is broken, but recent changes and additions via new heroes (ahem Kiriko), along with a few balance changes, means that overall it's very difficult to deal with the Support's survivability as some Tank characters, then getting dunked on for not killing anyone because you can't deal enough damage or because you keep getting bullied and not swapping to Orisa. Example: Wrecking Ball sucks right now because his whole scheme is his high mobility and Tankiness, but low damage. Because his damage is awful, he can't easily score eliminations. Because Supports have so many escape options, it's harder to chase them without entering a 1v5. Compared to the damage Ramattra, Doomfist, or even Rein can deal, who can obliterate squishy heroes much more quickly. It's not that he's a bad character, it's that everyone else is just better.
Used to play OW1 at T500 , and not only were tanks able to punish more, but there were also a LOT less "get out of jail free" cards. Now it seems every support has more than 1 way to escape a tank, or a dps. In addition, due to the damage patterns being super spiky and (I believe its now worse than 6v6) causing healers to be beyond over-tuned. This in conjunction with mobility creep makes them frustrating to play as you cannot punish anyone for making critical mistakes. And Honestly, I think season 1 OW2 Roadhog would be much more balanced in the current state of the game than any other tank. Tanks lack a direct punish. The closest 2 that do have decent punishes while not getting instantly popped are Sigma, Orisa, and maybe Doomfist. In Ow2, tanks can't really punish someone unless they're around 70% hp and aren't being looked at by a healer. Lets use Winston as an example. Since he is a great benchmark on whether or not the game is balanced. Dived an enemy who was clearly over extended? Life gripped through bubble by life weaver, petal, and weaver dashes away on followup Suzu'd by kiri. they get healed and do lots of dmg, kiri teleports away Kick boop spammed by zenyata who already does a ton of dmg Blasted back by Illari & illari does a ton of dmg and her pylon keeps her alive against winston indefinately Mercy f16 fighter jetting out of range while her beam heals the person you dove since she can zip across the entire map. Bap.... 1.5 Extra HP bars + jump. (you can block LOS of his lamp with the bubble.) and does a ton of dmg You can kinda see why I picked out all but ana, lucio, brig, and moira as those 4 I think are fairly balanced as theres a clear way for them to be punished if they use their CDs at the wrong time. The others... not so much. Honestly, I would love if they nerfed healers and the overall damage of the game. But something I could only predict is them putting something as stupid as dampening into the game like they have in WoW arena, where the long the game the less healing goes out lol. That feels awful.
you were absolutely right about the whole "the only time tank is fun is when you're smurfing" except I notice a problem with that. I have multiple mid/high masters accounts on tank, and yet I somehow play worse in gold/plat. i expect my team to be able to do things that they cant, which leads to me misestimating everything, along with everyone primarily shooting tanks at that rank because squishies are too much work.
See I'm sick of playing tank, I'm a tank main, but I can't anymore. Someone's always trying to counter me when I'm just trying to have fun, every character I chose that game the tank switched to counter, I don't care about winning, i don't. But if i get flamed when I'm the only one the enemy focuses on countering, why play?
Tbh the problem is the devs just need to lean into A buff the tank role more or B lower all the other numbers down because at the beginning of the game Tank felt like a raid boss which is how you're supposed to feel but because supports right now can just shutdown whatever a tank wants to do the role is mostly just sitting there.
The most carry potential tank I like to play with is Junker Queen and with Lucio speed boost, it's fun times. Knife, Axe kill combo is nice, ult purp is nice against sustain meta, Ana purp bypass shout is nice with the movement boost is nice. Used to like Sigma with Rock, Shoot kill combo but they nerfed him so he can't really get any kill confirms with this sustain meta so don't really play him anymore although he does more for team survivalibility. Hope they release a skillshot/aim-reliant mid/long range sniper tank to help with enemy snipers/fliers. Orisa/Sigma don't really count.
I really agree with the "tank feeling better at low ranks" point by playing tank you also remove the possibility of someone else who was going to get diffed to play on such a easy to throw role
Amazing video and amazing points, another problem more for lower ranks is that most people dont know what heroes work well into full team comps, just individual heroes and tank especially is one of the easiest roles to counterpick so people default to counterpicking the tank
They’ve gotta get rid of all these turret cooldowns. When the other team has a healing pylon, Torb turret, or Symm turrets, it feels like someone has to sacrifice their life to get rid of them. It’s so unfun to have to shoot at some autonomous bullshit while the other human players gun you down for it. When I play tank, it ends up being my job to have to go in and get rid of this shit and I pay the price for it.
6v6 was better the reason we gave the rock, paper, scissors tank matchup is because we don't have the second tank player to balance out the weakness of the first. So a swap wouldn't always be a direct counter in OW1 because if your counter one tank, you haven't really countered the entire tank role.
Whenever the Zarya is forced to meet the Rein at a chokepoint, and the enemy backline is standing behind the Rein shield. And Doom and Ball just interact with the backline the most, the other tanks can too, just nowhere near as much as they do.
Not at all what he said, he said that most tanks usual gameplay loops don't involve interacting with the rest of the enemy team nearly as much as Doom and Ball, who's entire gameplay loop revolves around diving into the thick of it.
Before, diving the enemy backline as a tank felt super beneficial. You had a good chance to get a kill on a squishy target who was out of position and at worst, you would make the rest of their team turn to focus you. That’s how it is supposed to work, because it’s a team game. Now, it just feels like diving the backline is a death sentence. It feels like you HAVE to play a tank on the frontline, soak up damage, and just pray that the rest of your team gets a pick before you can confidently push in. Tank used to revolve around game sense and noticing when the enemy made mistakes so you could commit to a push. Now you’re just standing there, waiting for something to die. It’s so awful
Exactly the feeling I had while I still played (last time being when Ramattra released). As long as everyone is roughly on the same skill level, there is no payout for playing right, but severe punishment for even minor mistakes. If you do not perfectly track the abilities of all 9 other players and their ults or miss the timing on any of your cooldowns or engages/disengages, it's instant death and a lost teamfight. However, if you do it right, you are merely "holding the line", waiting for others to make the fight-winning play. Twice the responsibilty compared to DPS/support, but not twice the reward for doing it right, on the contrary, close to no reward. Back at OV2 launch when the tank was some kind of raidboss, that was how it should be. The entire team stands and falls with you in both cases, but back then huge plays had huge payouts. If that's not what the community wants, the only choice is to go back to 6v6.
Maybe I’m weird but I like playing Tank. As a tank main because essentially I’m a leader and when Mic’d up with a team that at least listens I can be in charge of the team. I play mainly junker who is fairly strong but I will switch to Ball if the enemy team has mostly long range dps and support. Knowing who counter me and how to play around that is intuitively and fun to me. But being in control of when my team pushes forward or backwards and knowing that my ULT can turn a fight around makes me feel more in charge of my team. I’ve only been playing for 2 months and I’m silver 5 scratching gold surface but if i have more control of my teams overall interactions and actions it makes me feel better about winning or losing because I feel more responsible. Maybe things will change at higher ranks but even so the main point I’m making is I enjoy tank because I enjoy being the leader of the group and I can bear the burden of us losing but also don’t need the praise of us winning
The problem is when you get to gold everyone there thinks theyre masters players so they dont listen to you. It isn't like youre watching cooldowns, keeping track of ults, countering abilities, etc (sarcasm) so when its actually time to go in and you know if your team goes in with you youll win the fight, they either dont and let you die or go in at the wrong times and you sit there thinking "dude they literally had XYZ why did you go in there"
As a long time tank player, I've always preferred to be an assertive/playmaking tank player. Not necessarily getting all the kills, but doing something that involves using the map, the enemy's weaknesses and generally hitting them in the most optimal way. I feel that playstyle is lost in this balance. Does it matter that I use high ground and drop behind the enemy when they can immo and blow me away with bastion turret? not really. I know tank is impactful. That's not my contention. My contention is that I have to play so passive and eat so much crap that I can't do anything about or counterplay. Essentially my job is just to eat enemy aggro, damage and cooldowns and not die. Considering the tactical interest of playing dive heroes, the dynamicism that was a hero like Rein, its just really sad that my only job is aggro punching bag. I've actually had way more fun playing dps. I do feel its on average less impactful, but it comes with a freedom to be crafty and tactical, use the map, and just generally eating less poop from the enemy team. I've been a tank player for about 4 years now. I will probably transition to dps as a main, even tho I'm lower elo on that role, if I keep playing the game at all. I just have no fun playing tank.
The Tank role's always been fun to me. More times than not im able to feel the impact I have on my team when I'm playing good as well as when I'm under performing. In your last video and a little bit of this one you mentioned that Tanks have more responsibilites than other roles due there only being 1 tank per team, having to consume most of the team's damage, dealing with counterpicks from damn near every enemy player, etc. With that being said I dont see how the role can have the most responsibilities and also least impact. I'd also say being on the front line of enemy fire is enemy interaction. And the "You're not playing well, your match up is just playing bad" take is kinda lame to me. Yea stuff like that tends to happen in games (especially in lower rated lobbies), but I wouldn't say that's the case majority of the time in my personal experience. Sometimes people just get outplayed. Getting out played doesn't always mean you performed poorly
The way I would define impact is the ability to capitalize on the enemy making a mistake. Having a lot of responsibilities just means being able to make a lot of mistakes yourself, but not making mistakes doesn't "carry" the team. That's just the minimum requirement to not throw. Once you're able to fulfill your requirements, it's pretty much the ceiling of your potential, and you're reliant on your team to do the rest. A lot of tank players want to be more like Baptiste, and less like Lifeweaver.
A great point on orisa. Changing her numbers won’t change anything as the main driver making her ridiculously strong is letting her ignore 99% of cool downs by using either of her abilities with no attached resource cost other than the ability itself
change rhythm for momentum if you want, but i feel rhythm is more accurate. as momentum is different in overwatch ie. staggers and positions being punished late/early
One severe problem with tank right now is inability for the average tank to secure picks. Winston tickles anyone in support range, good at cleaving to get the healer, but if both healers are there you might as well get ready to jump pack out. Roadhog the "pick" tank lost most of his ability to do that and basically needs a Helix rocket direct on his hook target to finish the job. Rein it's pretty much a waste to do anything but shield and occasionally fire strike, with his two best kill tools being either charge (super risky and punishable) or earth shatter which had it's counter list go from "any other barrier" to like half the new support characters abilities and ults. Orisa is a tank bully meant to harass and make space between the enemy tank and the team but besides javelins on enemies out of position not a lot of outright fragging. Sig and Ram are kinda poke tanks with most of their power in their ult and their kit's versatility, but no real pick or movement potential. The three best off at holding their own are Doom (great mobility, can actually get picks alone, struggles with hard counter DPS and even Orisa), Zarya (insane damage, great ability, but has the same tank problem with range and has no mobility tool outside of blast jumping slightly off right click), and Dva (good enough damage, great mobility, enough health to brawl between cooldowns, eat is insane utility, just struggles with beam attacks and a few other things, but she can work around it sometimes. Anyone who says Zarya hard counters Dva plays it wrong, just kill the healers before Zarya kills you), but each are susceptible to one or two counterpicks and just lacking somewhere in their kit. It's pretty awkward one way or another, especially with the power of supports.
As a tank main since the dawn of ow1 playing tank use to be one person picks a main tank ( a tank with a shield whos goal is to be the main punching bag) and an auxillary tank (a tank with no shield who can still soak damage but assists with kills) who can fill in when shields are on cooldown but helps dps secure kills with their kit. Though many aspects of them game has been reworked to accommodate the one tank playstyle i still feel like theres to many responsibilities for one tank to handle and your often left at the mercy of your dps and supports to do either keep you alive and or get kills which isnt a bad thing but some tank characters have grown to be reliant on their team like reinhardt while other tanks have grown to be to powerful when properly supported such as orisa. Over all the balance goes in two directions and it hardly ever meets in the middle. The counter aegument for 6v6 was the cc hell we all endured but even then it wasnt the worst thing imaginable. And now that kiriko and lifeweaver exists most bad cc sitations can be solved by those two. I might be an old ow1 boomer but i sure miss the 2-2-2 comp.
I'm a one trick master dps player with around 150 hours, when I tried to queue tank my mmr was in around dia. I was shocked on how little impact I could actually get, the amount of 3 man gravs that would just get 0 value due to immortality field etc. Definitly never playing tank again xD
i honestly dont think you could be more right about the state of tank right now. although im new to climbing on tank, ive always enjoyed playing doomfist. his movement techs, high mobility and his ability to make plays reliably despite being a tank hero really drew me to like his playstyle however right now ive never had a more miserable time playing him. in this season he was nerfed despite being an average tank at best due to the supports survivability being nerfed but this dosent take into account the dps who are now harder to reliably kill an no nerfs actively placed on most of them. whenever i actually am playing good as doom i almost always see a tank switch to orisa (which tbh isnt really that bad) or a sombra and cass appear in their team. because im at such a low rank right now the people around me never help when im hacked allowing the sombra to go in and out as she pleases sometimes even getting a kill for free and with cass i try to go in and apply pressure with a power dive and gain ult charge but when i try to get out a grenade is thrown at me and the entire team then focuses me. idk if its a skill issue on my behalf but it almost feels like i cant stay back with my team because of the threat of sombra but i also cant go in and do something because of the grenade not to mention that the healing supports still give out only makes dooms unreliable kills harder to get. with blizzard trying to convert tanks into a glorified bullet sponge a hero like doomfist who has 450 hp and is a playmaker who creates space through killing squishes has no real place in the tank role.
Great video! Thought I’d add that That in diamond on support and dps people seem to credit tank appropriately. Chat might express it as “tank gap” when your tank was better, etc.
Yeah I think people do respect the tank more at the higher ranks, recognizing that the tank did the best they could with what they have. But of course there's always going to be the guy using "gamer words".
@@Casual314 Yeah perhaps I'm immune to certain negativities lol. You've got very well said points, I just thought I'd add a little data to the sample size! Definitely my new favorite gaming channel. If you ever have a channel slogan I'd like to propose 'unreasonably rational" because I think I said that out loud the first time I watched one of your OW videos lol
im hard stuck bronze tank on one account and platinum tank on my alt. bronze because i keep getting stuck with dps with no damage and supports that only heal and keep dying. no matter how much i try to carry, it seems like our team loses no matter what. on my plat account, it is much more about reading my team and adjusting to their playstyle. but one thing thats annoying is when my team bashes me and blames me for our loss when the opposing teams dps and supports were just better. also, i want 2 tanks back. just wish they would make it main tank and off tank roles. then balance each role accordingly to prevent ow1 shields stalemates.
Im really considering coaching thanks to your videos... I know I can be better because I've gotten so close to it before and as someone who started OW+OW2 in bronze it only serves to motivate me to climb higher. In the current meta, one of the many problems tanks face is how many cooldowns there are that almost instantly get value & instantly punish a tank player's aggression or mistakes. I mostly main ball now because of my ability to directly impact the game through skill (soloing a squishy to force the 1v1) (skill checking ana sleep darts) but as someone with more hours on Rein than I'd like to admit, I think the majority of the discontent with the tank role, is how much support & power creep has taken away from the tank role. As a ball player, one of the things I face the most is taking 4 to 6 different cooldowns when I try to make a play (going after a squishy, trying to punish someone that's alone or chasing a kill) often getting sleep, anti-nade, hacked, javelin is the point where I know my chance of making it out of that combo are very slim, more often none. What's the alternative? Like you said, play Orisa, cycle cooldowns, and just stand there. Boring. Play Rein, hold shield, play corners, hold shield, take cooldowns, and just stand there. Boring. Play Sigma, hold shield, use suck, rock the tank, and just stand there. Boring. Yet, when you counter-pick the tank, you in turn get counter picked... and it has turned the majority of OW2 into a very complex game of Rock, Paper & Scissors. Also, I don't think the mentality of now with 1 tank, we have the responsibility of 2, its a very Overwatch 6v6 take, and we're not playing that game anymore. We have to think of 5v5 as its own subjective thing separated from what 6v6 used to be, which begs the question, how can we make tank role more impactful? Because it feels like what we have currently falls short of what the vast majority of the player base was used to in 6v6, and the 1 role which was previously 2 isn't as impactful as it needs to be.
It's always possible to become a better player given the motivation, I think it's great that you have the belief in yourself that you can do it. Remember to always be willing to change your ideas about the game and admit that you might be doing something wrong. If you can do that, you'll get the most value you can out of coaching. Best of luck.
I was playing the other day, and having to switch between several tanks throughout one game made me have a thought. switching to 5v5 now means that one tank has to fill 2 roles. With 6v6, you could have a Rein to protect support/dps, and a Winston (or ball) to make space. In 5v5 though, One tank has to make space, and protect other teammates. My perspective comes from Silver and Gold, ans tanks and support always seem to be blamed for losses.
Yeah in order to play tank you have to have the mentality and know right off the bat it's fun in a different way. You have to be thinking that your role is baiting cooldowns (nor fun because your supposed to absorb or take them and even ults), distracting, killing squeeshies and in so doing, you'll create space for your team to enable them (should they not engage, you play safe near them and wait for your cooldowns to create off angles or kill ppl overextending while also playing high groumd and more importantly, around natural cover like corners)so in time you'll develop the criteria of when are you going in to bait and distract or when are you going in for the kill (im playing winston, for example) also being a tank involves you having good awareness of your team's locations so you don't overextend and this still have access to heals (pushing in deep can get you killed and hinder your team despite you baiting said cooldowns). You also need to play high ground if possible, corners and chokes (always consider ally team LOS) also MU knowledge which comes in time. Ngl it is team dependant and at the beginning stressful while you learn, but i believe that there is more in one's hands that we tanks can do than we think.
I've been playing tanks in games for over 25 years. If there's one thing that I have learned in every game that includes a tank it's this: Tanks will always be the least picked role because it's the most demanding and the most team reliant and the most called out. The only time tanks become extremely fun is when your tank is overpowered. In RPG's that means having equipment that buffs your stats over the level that the content was balanced for. In Overwatch, (all other team variables being equal) that's your tank simply performing far above the enemy team tank. I played Overwatch since launch and tanking wasn't any better in 6v6. In fact, there was an entirely different set of problems with the role. Most people that wanted to play tank only wanted to play "off tanks". That means tanks that play more like DPS with large health pools like Zarya or Hog. Worse yet, most of those off tanks wanted to play like they were the main tank and removed any agency from the main tank. If I'm the "main tank" then my team should be following me so I'm able to properly in engage the enemy team. In OW1 what actually happened more often is the main tank would choose one route for engagement, the off tank would ignore it and go elsewhere, then the rest of the team would split up (usually unevenly) between both tanks leaving neither group in a good position to engage then everyone would die. Then the ensuing "tank diff" and trash talk etc would start and just leave you not wanting to play the role anymore. Which then lead to over 1 hour queue times because no one wants to play a role that requires your team to follow you (when they don't), heal you (when the support is getting shot by the enemy), and attack your same target (when they're not even looking in your direction) and yet your team does none of this and therefore you literally can't make any impact and the cherry on top is that you then get berated by either the enemy team or your own team or sometimes both. Meanwhile I swap to DPS for the rest of my gaming session and I literally don't need a team to create impact in any match I join. I wonder what role everyone will play? If there's one issue OW2 solved by removing the "off tank" role it's that there's only one tank on your team so everyone should know who to follow, and know to position themselves accordingly to the only tank that is on your team. If you cannot do these two things, then the skill of your tank is likely not what's causing your game to end in defeat. A tank cannot be a leader if everyone refuses to follow him. It is always better for your team to die together because of a terrible engagement from your tank (don't worry he'll realize it) than for everyone to not engage with him at all and him repeat the engagement thinking that it would have succeeded if the team would have actually engaged together.
Yes in my low rank it feels exactly like that. Either roll (if the enemy tank doesn't know what their are doing or my team is really good) or get rolled (if the enemy tank is way better than me or has a team that can capitalize on plays). Also playing support at that level those super aggressive Rein plays only work if you work like crazy to keep them alive, but then they are terrible on the receiving end. Otherwise it's insta death for the Rein. But again that's more the impact of the support. When I look at WOW I wonder why tank feels fun there. It's because you can control the battlefield by manipulating the mobs. I wonder if more impact on the battlefield / space would be a good direction for tanks to go. Like ice wall. Or even Sigma shield a bit because you can prevent healing of the enemy frontline. That's also maybe why Zarya still feels good, if the enemies are playing decent and shoot your support you can protect them. You can also enable your flankers / divers with bubbles. Plus a good grav forces the enemies into bad positions. I'd like to see more of that.
Tank role has always been and forever the core of Overwatch gameplay. From OW1 to the new OW, developers must put themselves together and fix this issue before next year (season 8) or this game won't survive another year in healthy state They literally save every major changes for season 8, basically next year making the same tactics they did with season 6 with the title "Official Release", saving up the contents to prolong the interest of consumers
Tanks gained a lot of survivability in OW2. The breakpoints they gain in they health when combined with healing being unchanged gives tank players much more survivability than in OW1. In OW1 zen was a monster capable taking down most tanks that couldn't block his damage, and kill him.
Doomfist is actually extremely impactful right now, just really difficult to pick up and just play like other tanks. Ever since the 6 second Slam came back we've had a resurgence of Doom cause he's not unintuitive anymore.
I was a gm rein/dva player in overwatch 1 but swapped over to only playing dps with the release of overwatch 2 because I cannot stand the way tank plays in 5v5. The game was designed at its core to have two tank players working in unison to exchange their abilities and assist one another in both protecting their team and controlling the game. Reducing that down to one person has resulted in a huge imbalance in player impact. When each role had 2 players the responsibilities were divided evenly, and one players shortcomings could be made up for by the other player on their role. With the loss of a tank there is so much more pressure on tanks, which has led to them needing to be way overtuned, and for supports to be given abilities like suzu and life grip. In overwatch 1 if your rein over extended it was a team effort to save him, zarya bubbles or defense matrix would help mitigate damage and make way for him to get back to safety. With the loss of that help and synergy, abilities like suzu and life grip are a necessity, but feel far more bullshit than the help of an off tank ever did. They make it feel like instead of two tanks being a synergistic tank line that helps one another with their abilities, a single support has the ability to effortlessly and skill-lessly undo any mistake a tank player makes.
I'm in the lower tiers and I main support, but got seduced by the queue times and I have a lot of fun tank with the idea that I'm here to not throw and the mentality is actually freeing me to get better
honestly the junkrat pharah comparison for tank is such a good comparison for a tank especially vs certain dps/supports imo tanks get way too hard countered by way too many characters inside and outside of the role like tank busters, flying characters, supports with immor abilities and debuffers in general with not enough to respond with other than just hoping your own team's dps are able to kill faster them leading to an experience where you just feel like a push robot being pushed further along when your team wins and getting pushed back when your team loses trying to soak up damage and antinades like a sponge with rare opportunities to actually pressure the enemy team yourself without everybody behind you dying which means you only have fun maybe 2% of the time when you get the opportunity to pop off and it actually goes your way and the other 98% of the time your teammates yell at you for not being able to kill the enemy pharah as a tank player with limited range meanwhile they have a pocket mercy. we're in a weird spot at the moment where tanks can't really make plays since we can't kill anybody if a single support has an immor ability or just heals whoever we go after and there's too much damage flying around that the 400-600hp pool gets destroyed within an instant if you leave cover without an ability to protect us yet the devs force most of our value to come from taking/blocking damage while also trying to not take up much of the support's resources meaning if you peek an angle and take damage you're doing it wrong, if you peek an angle and don't take damage you're doing it wrong, if you try to pressure the enemy dps/supports and the enemy tank pushes into your team as a response you're doing it wrong and if you shoot the tank you're doing nothing except padding stats. the only way to play well on tank is to play tank well and there's no way to gauge what you're exactly doing wrong/right without experiencing the opposite but your random dps teammates who're 5-9 will let you know that you're the reason their wife left them and their kid died a painful death.
What class has the most impact when team fight break out? Or in the sense that if a class can be put to its best situation, which one will be the determining factor of winning the fight?
Supports powercrept healing renders tank damage near useless, DPS had their burst increased or players have turned to more bursty options to outdamage the heals, and Supports are currently good at everything, more notably Bap being literally the best dueler in the game rn with around 350+ hp, and Ana literally controlling the fight with her bio and sleep. Hopefully, these upcoming support nerfs bring back more Tank potential (their damage will actually mean something), and burst can be lowered a bit. I say this as a GM DPS and Supp player. I don't play tank, but they're just kinda there atm. Unless it's Doomfist, he's super annoying in high ranks in the hands of good players, but that's rare and he's still easy to shut down.
I'm one of those in your comment section that basically said, tank skill diff (I said games depended on tank, and support had barely any impact). Now that I've gotten some free time to play ow, I went tank only (im a flex player bc I get bored playing the same role non stop). I was shocked by the massive meta change in the span of 2 months. I actually believe that tank is almost useless. Dps are now hybrid tanks, Mei and Bastion. Support are hybrid dps, Illari, bapt. If I saw a tracer and a genji in my team vs mei and bastion (actually happened twice in a row for me), it was game over. Also, the biggest annoyance is that everyone would get insta killed as I tried protecting them (I was basically being ignored by the other team most of the time), then I would be the last alive every single time then insta die. It felt like being a spectator who couldn't die but also couldn't kill. So I swapped to dps and in the first game, our tank kept going afk. We still won easily.
Yeah I don't blame you at all if you felt that tank was the strongest role. I think it absolutely was for a while until semi-recently, so I would have said "skill diff" as well a few months ago. There's of course still skill expression in tank, but you just don't get the same results in terms of carry potential as the other roles for the same amount of effort anymore. Mei Bastion is definitely a very annoying comp to deal with as tank, and if they play well, there's almost nothing you can do except hope that they make a big mistake. Blizzard is planning some changes, but I have a feeling that it'll be a while before tank gets promoted from being a "spectator".
It’s just incredible to me that they’ve taken the least popular role in OW1 and somehow made it less fun to play. Tank queue times are back to where they were in ow1. CC feels worse even if there’s less of it because you get all of it. Mobility and immortality creep you can’t punish mistakes or bad positioning. Healing creep took feels like you engage and retreat, engage and retreat, engage and retreat and nothing ever dies but you made space and that’s the fun part of tanking right? You pop your slow charging ult, gets counter-ulted because everyone else has faster charging ults. You win the first fight because your attacked with rock to their scissors and they respawn with paper. You switch but your team doesn’t switch with you the team still loses “tank diff”. The supports pick mercy/lucio, mercy/illari, Moira/anything you lose in spawn “tank diff”. I know I over-embellished a lot but there’s so many things that can go wrong out of your control, so much responsibility on the role of tank, it’s just not fun. I don’t think blizzard really cares either. I’ve played since day 1 and I have been a main tank player and it’s never been as bad as now.
We dont need 6v6 back. Tank at the end of OW 1 was atrotious and tank in the beta and start of OW 2 was fantastic. The issue is the current ballance philosophy that blizzard has for supports and tanks. Theres too much powet in the support role and they seem to not like tanks being play makers
I personally feel that blizzard shouldn't have taken away the off-tank role in the first place because the purpose of the off-tank should be supporting the main-tank with splitting up the damage and enemy team so your damage and support heroes can do their jobs more effectively.
I enjoy enabling my teammates to do cool stuff and win us the game, and I don't love the pressure of playmaking. On paper, the role for me should be support, but I am finding that actually, tank is great for doing exactly this. The amount of games I lock Reinhardt and shield burst damage for my team while denying the enemy tank from walking and just playing for shatter is crazy. It's a bad sign when I play the least engaging game of Reinhardt ever played, and after we win and the enemy team begins to tear each other apart, the enemy Ramattra, who has nearly double my damage and elims, simply says they lost to a tank diff, and I know he's right.
Diamond tank here. I'm playing all tanks, but mostly hamster&dva. I'm good off tank and used to play in enemies backline and distracting them, eating abilities, etc. I use my skill to fill gap between our and their dps. I'm doing good, i climbed that way from bronze 3. Sometimes, i have to play against JQ or Doom (Last season, way often, almost each game is JQ&Doom). They are frequently eliminating my team. It's not a problem, i just switch hero and focus enemy tank. But if one of dps or supp suck, i can't do anything. Even if i win tank duel, its doesnt matter. I wasted all my attention to their tank. And meanwhile, flankers destroying my backline. And i can't do anything about it. My teammates are not doing anything to counter them. For example: I take orisa to counter JQ or Doom, and wasting all my time to protect team from being bullied by their tank. But hey, there are genji&tracer in backline. And widow&sojorn in frontline. Cant take zarya for genji. I cant take ball or winston for snipers. I HAVE TO STAY WITH THEIR TANK, WHILE MY TEAM IN BACK BEING FUKED IN THE BUTT BY FLANKER AND SNIPERS. (Also i died without healing, supports are dead).
tanks are in a weird spot. they need the ability to carry or at least have a more defined role. small things like have Rams circle deal a small amount of explosion damage if the enemy’s catch half the duration in it. this encourages attacking a group or breaking a line. tanks need spearhead potential. the ability to engage like either a spear or a hammer depending on their kit, and either get out or sustain. supports are ~fine~ right now but tanks don’t have the proper abilities to deal with what the game is now.
IMO tank is Counterwatch. I mained hog for years. Now, I pick hog, they pick Orisa, Dva. I pick rein, they pick doom or ram. There’s also too many “oops”fixers. Suzu, grip, petal, lamp. It’s honestly exhausting and I no longer play tank regularly. All damage with a sprinkle of support. Loving on hanzo right now.
I think for the most part up untill recently tank has been overall a better experience, except for season 1 where it was pretty must just zarya and orisa (kinda like now but not as bad for different reason since support is way too strong rn) and season 2 where hog was good so it was mostly hog and orisa. Theres still the problem with getting tank diffed where it feels worse getting outplayed by the enemy tank but its not just the tank, having the better support to keep the better tank alive is the real killer. 6v6 could have been balanced much better but unfortunately going to 5v5 was the easier solution for blizzard, at the end of ow1's life double shield was the meta and i honestly hated it as a tank main. Comparitively the state of ow1 to ow2 I enjoy tank more now because I feel like I have more impact (I have been playing since 2016 so experience is a factor here) but i can understand why new players think ow2 tanks have less since it feels so bad to play tank right now, you take all the damage, all the cc, get blamed for losses. Ow2 currently is better than the state of ow1 but 6v6 had better potential.
Reading some comments I have to say that I'm very impressed because you respond/react to everyone. And I agree with you, even as a silver tank the game isn't fun at all, you have the pressure to get a lot of damag, kills, push and fight the enemy tank, even if your supports aren't healing you and you always get blamed if the team loses. Never playing ranked tank again.
Too many people maining their one or two roles then backseating their tank. I play other role oriented games too and embrace the duties required. Always seems like many other players don't understand their role niche nor their hero's subrole, preferring to have no self direction nor responsibility to their team. I guess it makes flaming other people guiltless if they're ignorant to their own faults.
When I was playing tank in Silver (but it does happen in every rank), I did notice that non-tank players kind of expect their tank to "carry" them or make up for their mistakes. I won the majority of my games, so I didn't flamed too often, but even the enemy team would complain to my team that they got tank diffed when they were caught out of position all game. Unfortunately learning to deal with that is one of the more frustrating aspects of learning to get better at tank.
Being a very new player to OW2, I'm really running into a lot of this. I KNOW I suck, I'm a couple months into learning how to play, and queueing for any role throws me into tank more than anything else (which has also meant when I get the rare occasion to play DPS, I suck even more at that--I have much, MUCH less experience). It's completely disincentivized trying to play competitive, because it's glaringly obvious to everyone that I, their tank, suck, and they're going to flame the shit out of me for that!
Used to be a (off)tank main back in ow1. You could really feel the impact each role made in every single game. Now it's too frustrating to play as tank: you're like a sponge for the bullets and that's it. I want 6v6 back, but without shields at all.
The only fun tank imo is doomfist. And he can actually solo carry, but more often than not he needs his supports and needs to understand his and their placements and the distance and which supports hes with.
What I liked about 6v6 is having another player to play off of. I actually played in open division toward the end of ow1 and I was playing main tank (rein, orisa, winston, ball) and it was nice to have a zarya bubble when going in, a defense matrix while engaging, a sigma shield to cover the off angles etc. Now you either can't do it at all or have to make do with what little resources you have. Being expected to play the role of two tanks as one tank I believe is the sole reason tank sucks in ow1.
me and my friends haven't been playing comp for a while, we play qp open queue and usually run zarya with some other tank the combo plays just feel so good
I started with OW2 and just recently tried tanking after doing hundreds of DPS games. Was Sigma and they were Orisa. We sat in a team fight 5v5 for so long with no one dying until I had 12k damage and 15k mit, that’s when we finally killed the enemy supports and they crumbled. Won that game but it felt so boring with nothing happening for so long it didn’t even feel like I did anything. Even if I knocked down the enemy bap and hit him with my autos I just couldn’t kill fast enough cuz the DPS on my team only hit Orisa
Tbh i kinda wish the game WAS just TF2 with powers. If the tanks were more like Heavy, still slow and powerful, but not to the extreme on both counts. Then there literally wont be a need for any roles but healer. And since its 5v5 now, even more so since each player has to do more, so the characters should be more generalists. Theyre trying too hard to be an MMO where tanks are bullet sponges, but players arent NPCs. They can target whoever they want. So tanks have to be a threat, so they have to be juiced up, so they have to limit them. So if tanks were less like mechs and more like Soldier 76 wearing swat armour and less accuracy, with abilities just more around defense, tanks might be a lot more balanced. Bidgette was a step in the right direction. But its so big in OW identity as a whole, that you cant simply just undo.
Playing Winston the other day dived bap with in 10 seconds he was suzued, immortality fieald then I was hindered by Cas nade hooked by hog and killed it sucked
You just have to bait suzu and lamp and then disengage unfortunately. Baiting support cooldowns is really the best thing you can do to "carry". It kinda sucks
Bap has become such a dishonest support. He was already very powerful in 6v6 but he was easily dealt with if you baited his cooldowns properly, OW2 has overkitted every supports healing to an insane degree not to mention their strong passive role.
It is. I played a game where we had 3 DPS 2 healers and we just killed the tank then deleted everybody else. Honestly it felt like a weight was dropped off my shoulders cause I usually play Tank lol.
I'm unhappy with tank because I chose it to be a leader and make huge plays, and when I'm feeling like helping others get huge plays, I go support. Not the other way around.
The problem is every role is doing everting ! Tank has health and damage, DPS has damage and heals, Support has heals and damage and evade. I believe the solution is too: - Give tanks invulnerable to any Nade, CC, Stun, Boop, .... and Decrease the damage. - Remove DPS self healing and 1 Shots and decrease damage to tanks - Decrease Support Damage, Remove self healing (Self suzu, Moira Orb, Bap Self Lamp, ...) Increase health or support passive. Also to remove the rock, paper, scissors: The switch can be limited at least on Competitive. For example 3 switch per round ! So instead of counterplay, people could learn how to counter something by creative plays with their favorite hero. The game can be much more fun this way, tanks would get rid of DPS switching to counter tank, and game becomes more skillful.
Hit the nail on the head. I've been screaming about this for a while now, that tank is consistently getting nerfs and is losing more and more agency every season. They are the scapegoat of the community, ever since GOATS was a thing. I find myself only playing doomfist and zarya, as they are the two tanks that I feel I have the most agency to determine the outcome of the match. I peak in masters, but play with my friends often in Plat, and can agree that every tank feels fine when you're smurfing a few ranks. But in masters? The only viable tanks are orisa and Zarya. Both do the same thing - just exist. Zarya bubbles her team to prevent their mistakes from getting punished, whereas Orisa has the smallest window of opportunity to punish her mistakes. Sigma is pretty good right now as well, but since the rock combo nerf he feels like you can't punish people at all unless the entire team focuses them. I think we just need to reduce healing from a few supports, and rethink a few abilities and the game will be just fine. The overall gameplay loop outside of these things is generally good, and fun to paly with. Kiriko: Swiftstep needs to require LOS. Suzu needs to pick 2 of the three: Heal, Cleanse, Immortality. Kunai damage on headshot needs to be reduced from 135 down to around 80 (2x instead of 2.5x). Baptiste: Regenerative burst needs to NOT heal him for 150 HP. Immortality field needs a rework of some kind, likely into the realm of damage reduction as a proactive cooldown that requires some train of thought to make a dicision about. Illari: Pulse rifle damage needs to be lowered, headshot dealing 80-90 damage. Zen: Discord orb needs to either be a cooldown, or be replaced with a second harmony orb. Mercy: Damage boost needs to be on a cooldown, rez should be an ultimate, and valkyrie should be a cooldown. Moira: Make damage hitscan, (I dont think this makes a difference, but she's only good in pisslow, so Idrc about this character) For tank, you just need to do a few things: Doomfist: Slam slow comes back OR increase damage on normal punch. Dva: Rework ultimate to operate differently. Currently it's only used as a second-life, with very low viability to make plays with. Make it explode faster, reduce remech timer on it, whatever so that it doedsn't feel awful to use. Make DM a projected shield OR enable it to block beams. Zarya as a hard counter for no reason other than damage type feels bad to lose to, even if your character requires more skill to get the same value. Zarya: Increase base damage for beam, reduce %dmg gain from charge. This will make baseline value better, and encourage utility usage of bubbles rather than charge usage of bubbles. Monkey: Increase dmg of taser gun slightly (10% or less) Rein: Pin to 250, swing to 100 dmg, give some form of mobility outside of pin? Ball: He's fine, leave him in the depths of hell. High skill cap, required to get value, that's fine. Sigma: Rock dmg reverted Ramattra: Needs to be better outside of nemesis form. Increase proj speed or something? Make the vortex go to the skybox to allow him to be anti-pharah, as well as decrease lateral movement speed. Orisa: Fine as is, the 40% nerf wasn't warranted, but is fine as is. Works primarily as anti-brawl option, doesn't need to be used outside of that. JQ: Fine as is.
Your suggested damage nerfs don't work imo. There's no reason a projectile should only be dealing 80 on a headshot. Kiriko just needs everything else about her tuned down to make up for her good damage. Also it's 112.5 dmg rn Illari's headshot only doing 90 would be awful too, that's only 15 dmg more than a bodyshot. She just needs her bullet to be the same size as other hitscans.
@@ryan_uwu Headshot dealing 80-90 damage means that she does 40-45 damage for a bodyshot ... what? Nobody is hitting kiri headshots across the map. NOBODY. Don't play like you do either. Almost everyone plays kiri the same way - they either try to healbot(they're bad) or they play her like a pseudo flanker and get up close on a flank and try to assassinate somebody with cheesy headshots. Tell me now how last season was the first time you climbed to diamond 5, and then camped your rank this season. The bullet nerf is warranted as well, but I'd also like to see supports lose this ability to 2 tap anybody aside from tanks. 3 shots? Sure, 4? fine. There's no reason a support should be a better duelist than the DPS.
@@noahodum9737 I just assumed you didn't change anything about her base damage lol. You aren't seriously suggesting 45(90) dmg for a full charge every second, that's lower dps than the entire roster aside from like Winston. I'm actually not opposed to a Kiri damage nerf, i just think your numbers gut the characters. She could be 50 base dmg with 2x multiplier. Or they could lower her fire rate again. Kiriko's damage wouldn't be bad if she didn't also have insane utility and survivability. And chill with the rank shaming, you're better lol, I'm just saying your suggestions are unbalanced. Most supports only out duel dps because of their survivability, not their damage numbers, Kiriko is prob the exception. If DPS have 5/5 dmg, supports have 3/5 dmg with 5/5 survivability.
@@ryan_uwu Ngl wasn't really trying to rank shame, merely making the comment that people that share your viewpoint tend to be in lower elo, and I've seen a lot of 5 game andies lately It wouldn't change much but lower TTK - which almost always increases skill cieling.
Unless you're incredibly skilled at tank, you'll either be overshadowed by the dps or get carried so much by your support that they might as well play the game for you. I really hope Ow2 regulates that (the probably won't) but until then ima keep playing Sigma
Yo. I was a wreckingball main. I loved tanking. I was a tank! I learned reinhart so I could have a second tank when someone else picked wreckingball in ow1. Playting rein with ball was just as fun as playing ball back then. Because I know I had a solid fron and I could focus the overall gameplay and flanking pressure. Theese days... I never go tank. I go support and feel sry for the guy playing tank.....
Right now a tank is around 1,5 of an OW1 tank. What if they increase the tanks' hp to be more around 2 OW1 tanks, but also decrease the dmg by 1/4 or 1/3 (except the ults, these should still be very impactful)? That would make tanks less dominant in lower ranks and at the same time with more hp harder to kill = usually not worth to focus on. It would open a possibilty to go deeper, create more plays and decrese responsibility bagage. With that change though, it would also require giving every tank a utility similar to Sigma, since for example Roadhog has nothing to offer other than hook and dmg. Tanks not being able to consistantly one-shot combo, especially in lower ranks, could lead to team success dependant on tank-dps cooperation ("Ashe, why you don't shoot the knocked down target" instead of "Sigma, you messed up you rock combo"), increasing dps' possible influence.
Increasing hp could definitely be a part of the solution. I'm not sure about decreasing damage across the board, I think as long as tanks aren't melting/one-shotting everyone I think the damage can stay as it is. I like Spilo's take on the issue that it's too easy to deny the value that a tank is trying to create, and they need more tools to deal with all the ways they can be countered.
Tank is good at tanking with decent supports but I agree completely. I spend most of my time just absorbing cooldowns while doing almost nothing to the enemy team. And if I’m not in LOS of support I die instantly because COD boy soldier only hits headshots. It feels like you’re locked into just standing in from of the team and taking damage without any damage potential
As a master/gm player that constantly smurfs in metal ranks i love running gold lobbies as doomfist or roadhog. They are the only fun tanks anymore and im good enough to make them work even into counters like ana and zen but only while smurfing. I dont play tank on my main account bc i refuse to play orisa just to win. And i live the shock and surpise and the praises from my gold team when i carry on hog/doom and they notice me. Thats why i smurf. Bc it feels good to be complimented by my team. Especially on a hero like doom and hog when peolle think they suck but you show them how good the hero can be if played properly. When im not smurfing in gold though im a support main(ana) bc she has such high impact, when i lose i know its because i didnt land my shots/nades and its my fault. When i lose games on tank or dps i almost always blame my supports for picking LW, Mercy combo or mercy moira combo because as an ana player i know how high her impact is and mercy, lw, moira and lucio do not even come close to competing.
![เจ็บที่ยังฮัก - ม่อน วรวิทย์ [ Official Mv ] จอนนี่มิวสิค](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/KALIGSRSjFs/mqdefault.jpg)
the main prob with tank is blizzard trying to remove the solo carry potential of the role. They're obsessed with this mmo style tank archetype of sitting around soaking up dmg and attention and waitng for your dps/supps to do something. Healing/survivability is way too high, to the point where 3 man shatters often get cleansed/immort/life griped/petal'd and nobody dying. What once used to be game winning plays are now completely shut down by power creep.
That's so true. Life grip especially pisses me off sometimes. It's just a get out of jail free card with no counter play. Makes it impossible to secure kills on open maps.
I think part of the reason this happened is because people wanted supports to have more options and not have to run away from everything, but the scale is kind of tipped a bit too far in the other direction.
100% agree
Hi I played overwatch one. I enjoyed playing zarya and Winston I specifically enjoyed balancing how I created space with a main tank like rein. The issues are spot on in these video. But even before ow2 and 5v5 when tank mains voiced thier inability to enjoy thier role the matches sucked. Bar none. This may be separate but tbh tanks really weren't given to many options like counter picking. Damage heros had made up most of the character roster and thus so many interactions are to be considered in that class. In the beginning ow1 though i dont think this wasn't a consideration because you chose from 4 class types instead of 3. And I do think that changed how people thought about the game. But I was a support main so I have a bias in that my tanks concerns were important to me since their role is important to winning the game because the space they can create. Thats why CC was always a main gripe in the community over the years
@@Casual314 As a support player, I really feel like supports DIDN'T need more options. It's just that certain tanks were very broken in the early stages of overwatch 2 and needed to be tuned down. It's not that support was bad, people just don't know how to play their role and they needed blizzard to give them a crutch in order to be good; and now here we are.
One thing I hated when I was a lower rank tank is since everyone has horrible aim they just all see the big thing that they can hit and throw all of their damage and cooldowns at you since they know they can actually hit you.
Yeah when my aim was much worse, I found myself resorting to shooting the tank a lot because I didn't have the aim to hit the smaller targets, so it felt like I was at least getting some value by shooting the tank instead of the air.
Agreed lol switching from DPS to Tank recently in lower ranks it felt like I was getting hit with every cool down in the game. On DPS I try my best to not shoot the tank and only spam for ult charge when I almost have ult so I never realized how much other people spammed tanks.
@@Casual314 That exactly my point I feel like a lot of high rank creators keep saying “Why are you shooting the tank? Stop shooting the tank?” But for a lot of low rank players they can’t hit anything else so they shoot the tank so they get feeling like they are doing something since it makes that little ding sound when you hit stuff and makes you feel useful.
@@aSuperPi. You watch Spilo? The whole thing about the ding sound sounds like a Spilo rant
@@devdog7409 Oh I wasn’t aware of that I just noticed it with my little brother because whenever I tell him to stop shooting the tank he tells me he likes feeling like he can hit something lol
Diamond/Masters tank main: You make some good points here, soaking up damage isn’t what tank mains want to do all day. I like getting value in playmaking and being a presence.
In the rock/paper/scissors of switching tanks, sometimes it boils down to Orisa vs. orisa which can be feel so dull and this video captured some of what I felt in those games
just force the tank you wanna play get good at counter match ups and enjoy playing the gamer. I just play doom into everything and have been rolling people. Every single match it ends up im playing doom into orisa sombra bastion ana, its whatever, makes you a better player. I still find tank to be the most fun role by far even if its no longer the pwoer house it may have been.
Before doom I just forced Sig, if people on your team wanna complain then to bad, Im here to have a good time and win in the manner I want to win.
@@michaelc5095 As a fellow Doom main who also never swaps, I also really love playing into counters and getting better. The issue I have mainly is that even on Doom, with as much carry potential that he has, it still feels like I'm limited by both my and the enemy supports. There are times I hit all cooldowns perfectly, and no one dies because there's just soooo many get out of jail free card abilities nowadays. Baiting out abilities also doesn't always work because there's enough that the enemy team can effectively just cycle these crutch abilities. Not to mention that its hard to get a team that can competently play dive, or at least try and synergize with me.
@shark1820 I dont disagree with you that that can be an issue and is annoying, I just don't see it as tanks being to weak its simply support it to strong. Buffing tanks isn't the answer it only contributes to the issue where everything is getting power creeped on, just nerf supports and I think a global damage and heal nerf in general would be good for the game. Say 10 or so percent
@@michaelc5095 whole heartedly agree, tanks def don't need to be buffed, it's the heal creep and the devs trying to buff problems away as every solution. I just hope they make actual meaningful changes without it being just another wrist slap like Orisa fortify, while also not nerfing a whole swathe of their characters into trash tier.
Removed half of a role. Wonders why it’s not as fun.
To be fair, the tank role wasn’t liked in OW1 either. I believe it was one of the main reasons they moved to 5v5 to cut down on queue times. I do think OW2 is worse though. I think it’s more of the power creep from supports but having 6v6 back would fix the rps and being focused down by the whole team.
@@devdog7409it was just double shields at the highest level that people found unfun tbf. Everything else was way better
I think my main problem with the tank role currently is the rock paper scissors nature of it. Seems like once you reach the rank where you’re really at your limit, you have to have the right tank pick for the right moments. A lot of games are decided by a single team fight, and it sucks when you’re at 70% ult charge on Zarya, but you’d be much better off playing Winston. Making the right call is super tough and doesn’t feel great when you make the wrong decision.
"It sucks when you're at 70% ult charge on Zarya, but you'd be much better off playing Winston..." and this is why in order for anyone to become a better player you need to spend time playing your chosen hero into their counters so that you can learn how to better play to your advantages and minimize your disadvantages WITHOUT relying on a hero swap. There are tons of win scenarios that don't allow you to swap and you absolutely MUST play your hero in spite of the team comp your playing.
For example, if you're playing attack on an escort map and hit point C in overtime and you're playing Winston and now the DPS swap to Reaper to contest you on point C, you better be quite familiar at playing around a Reaper as Winston if you hope to have any chance of getting your win. Swapping is simply not an option in overtime and your team still expects you to be a good tank regardless of what swaps the enemy team made.
Obviously don't practice this in Competitive, but you definitely should spend time playing into your hero's counters specifically because of these kinds of scenarios. Alot of times a win condition relies on you playing well against disadvantages even if it's for only about 15-20 seconds.
The analogy of playing junkrat into a team of 4 flying characters is the best one I have heard so far to describe the current tank experience.
The bad part about tank is everything is always perceived as your fault. A lot of those steam rolled games seem you're playing a 1v5.
mhm im getting blamed for every match i dont win lol
they dont see that you have 36,000 damage mitigated after shutting down bastion for 3 rounds, just that you arent hard carrying
Man this is for real. You've been tanking and absorbing damage since 10min, swinging hammer in the corner while shielding everyone... And if your team do nothing with the space you made, then it's tank diff and you get blamed everytime. I'm Reinhardt OTP and I've seen a lot (and I mean, A LOT) of games where I'm doing very well and then "Tank diff" pop in the chat for no reason.
how is it a tank diff when you have 20,000 more mitigated than the enemy tank lol what is the role of tank for anymore@@chitssu2725
I think that the role who is meant to take the most abuse from the other roles (that is the philosophy in tank blizzard has) should also be the role that can do the most. Imo this is not just because it would be fair but also to ensure que times for the other roles don't go through the roof
Tank is lame to play because the supports are way too impactful. In my anecdotal experience of tanking, the game is honestly decided by whichever team's supports play better. You can pop off on tank, get top damage, top elims, and the fewest deaths in the lobby, carry several teamfights single-handedly, but at the end of the game all that mattered was which team's supports got the most value. You will win plenty of games by forcing supports into making mistakes, but you will lose an equal amount of games for when your own supports are making those same mistakes. It's all just a coin flip. I don't play much comp these days, but when I last queued tank my Zarya win rate was dead 50/50, and I can honestly say that I played pretty well in mostly all of those games. Switched over to support, 90% winrate with Baptiste. Maybe my Baptiste is just insane, but I feel like it's more of a game design issue than me actually being good at the game. Supports just have way too much agency over who is going to win the game, and the tanks and DPS are just along for the ride.
You are not as good as you think because you rather take the time to write an essay complaining instead of learning the game.
@@mylegguy8115so what you’re saying is, they aren’t allowed to do anything else apart from play overwatch 24/7. Otherwise they aren’t actually good at the game. Are you alright?
@@mylegguy8115this a completely brain-dead comment 🤣🤣🤣
@@mylegguy8115Yea, one correlated with the other. Your comment is stupid because Jimmy John’s makes the best sandwich.
Nobody said it better than you. I am a gold tank, recently learning tank. I hate when I get an Ana who can’t aim, but the enemy Ana be hitting all her cooldowns.
Am a bad tank player, but I agree 100% with what you said.
When I was climbing through gold I found a lot of success on my favorite tanks rein and Winston. But the moment I got to plat it felt as if not swapping to counter the tank was throwing.
All I can say is, "tank diff" is absolutely tilting. When no one knows why their team is losing, blame tank.
word
It feels like the general flow of the game is that tanks are responsible for providing a team a direction. Basically setting up the front lines of the team fight (while also getting picks on the enemies support that are healing the enemy tank). Dps are responsible for killing the enemy teams support so they can kill the tank to make a push or killing the enemy teams dps to protect the friendly supports. support is responsible for keeping everyone alive during that while also trying to get a pick when possible.
The problem is, as soon as you tell another player what to do, they throw. Apparently everyone is perfect and can’t handle criticism in OW2. Diving 1v5 and dying is not my fault. It’s your fault.
This is also not the division of labour in overwatch above gold and hasn't been since like 2017. To start with supports are supposed to utilize their utility to create openings (see ana nade/discord/lucio speed) the tank provides a direction and the supports get you there. keep you alive while you are going and kill things once you get there. in overwatch 1 tanks also kept you alive on the way and helped with the DPS's job of securing kills specifically through the holding/taking of space. Tanks output a threat due to high close range damage and so entering the space they control or are claiming at the moment should be the death of you. since they only get to output that threat two feet in front of them. The problem was in the movement to OW2 and the loss of a tank they can no longer keep people alive in rotation (other than ram and zarya) because they need those cooldowns to keep themselves alive. so they no longer can be proactive. When they said we were going to Overwatch 2 and there would be no more offtanks they were wrong. there are no more maintanks. an offtank's job was to peel and hold space. a maintank's job was to claim space, extending their threat out into new territory. Tanks no longer have the oomph needed to claim space. multiple of them lose in close range 1v1s against the rest of the cast. while those characters also have long range options or better mobility. and so the tank is stuck holding space and waiting for someone to make a mistake
@@PoeticMistakes u said that’s not how the division of labor is utilized “above gold” and then said the same thing I did. I agree with what u said about tank tho somewhat. It’s kinda like the tanks are two boulders doing nothing but smashing against each other until one of them breaks. The diversity to this tho are tanks like JQ or Sigma than can punish supports pretty easily while on the frontline. And then doomfist, ball and Winston that dive and don’t even exist on the front line. Kinda like how u define a main tank. I do think some change is necessary though
@@nathanosman5606 telling people what to do in OW is never a good idea. Play around their weaknesses it’s the only way if they dive for no reason play aggressively but not stupid and maybe u can get a pick. Some people are just bad tho and it is what it is
Trash design then. The best space creation is by killing the enemies bar none and killing enemies is also why people play fps but blizzard keeps taking away tank ability to secure kills on their own. Why play tanks then?
Ive had more fun playing winston this season than anything else (im not a tank player at all) but the games you get rolled on tanks feels so so much worse than on any other role. On support i feel like atleast 80% of my losses are partly my fault. On tank its closer to 30-40%
The worst games are when the whole enemy team counter swaps you. Running winston into dva, reaper and bastion really sucks, especially because your teammates often don't understand that you need to play differently, so they run in and feed while you're trying to set up an engagement.
The other week I went on a whole rant about how annoyingly broken Support can be when playing ranked with my DPS main buddy. Basically I decided to fill as tank since we kept getting really bad Tanks in our DPS games. I do fairly well most games but every game comes down to what team had better supports. Had a really close game on Kings Row where I was initially getting somewhat diffed by the enemy Rein in our mirror matchup. We push em back to 3rd point just before the capture and by then I'm forcing this guy to swap his Rein and try other heros. It's looking fine until their turn to attack basically the tables turn because his support went Ana/Lifeweaver and mine decided to just stick to Moira/Kiriko/Brig despite clearly needing to switch. I'm struggling to make plays because everything I close the gap on is getting healed back up or life gripped away, finally I am forced to swap to Hog at the very last point because nothing is dying so I felt hooking off the map was literally my only option. They nano Rammatra, he runs in with his Annihilation ult, i hook him right off the side within a second. I get so hype thinking I just shut down 2 ults and we could win this and thennnnn he gets life gripped and we lose. Like I gets thats a sick play for the LW but it felt so shitty on my end. Everything a tank does can easily be negated by a support. You cant even knock a mfer off the map anymore.
That does sound like quite the frustrating experience. Of course there's always room for improvement win or lose, but sometimes you just get the short end of the stick.
On the other hand, if I was a Nano'd up Ramattra doing my ult and I just get yeeted off the map by a hook I really can't do anything about I'd be a little disappointed too. But I get what you're saying.
@@mohawkmeteor7189 That's bad positioning by Ramattra. the only thing you should be disappointed is your lack of foresight that there is high potential you will get enviro killed.
DPS has the lowest impact and supports have the highest impact. Tanks also have a high impact in general but in higher elo, they are very dependent on supports.
imo if you play tank buster dps then dps are very impact
You're just bad
that is skill diff my frends. As a former master tank i can delete dva with solder. Easy. Not even mention other actual tankbusters. Dps is only hold down by even more busted supports.
@@racmanov is that a fact or an opinion, cuz you wrote it like it was a fact?
@@wanderer316 both
Honestly, both tank and dps impacts have been decreased a lot lately due to the most recent support additions, involving bap. A lot of these can either dps as well if not better than a good chunk of the dps roster, and also provide highly impactful utility and ults. Burst damage abilities or ults are such down by cleanse and immortality way too easily, and other forms of damage can just be outhealed. Not to mention a lot of flanking class characters and plays have been made significantly harder to do their job because of these supports. Kiriko can 2 tap you/tp away/suzu, illari can simply gun you down whilst being healed by pylon, bap, well bap is just bap and i dont think i need to explain him. Ana, has been a community favourite for the entire time she was out, so you can't really touch her, but like widowmaker, with the removal of double shield, her abilities and primary have more opportunities to be used, and she's always been strong. And lifeweaver... Honestly, i think he might be one of the most problematic designs imo. With a bad team, you can't do much, but with a good team, I'd say his potential far outshines a lot of other supports.
I'm sure everyone has experienced those games where it is a steamroll, and you struggle to get any eliminations, well, if the enemy tank or dps made a very punishable mistske, he can just pull them away and any chance of getting a comeback is lost.
Ultimately, supports went from basically just healing, and boosting damage or movement speed (apart from ana) to cleansing any status effect, high burst healing, immortality, lots of mobility (which used to be exclusive to lucio) and so on. Those things alone shot up their influence so hard that other roles just feel helpless more commonly. If they add more of these types of supports, the impact of the other roles, and other supports will yet again lower.
Even as a bap main, I do think he's at least a bit overpowered. I think they're hesitant to nerf bap because of how unpopular he is to play in lower ranks.
@@Casual314 Being a flex player does help me experience a lot of the characters gameplay, their counters and so on. And with supports, namely Bap, kiriko, illari, ana and lifeweaver, those alone just feel unfair to use. Though most often than not, if my team is failing to get important eliminations on key characters like an ana, or pharah, or the doomfist, then i go bap. Even if i'm not able to kill them, i'm able to put a lot of pressure of them (with my very hit-all or miss-all aim) whilst still pumping out healing, just that causes the supports to have to focus on me, or heal themselves instead of the tank or dps, which allows my team to snowball the damage into kills. And speaking of low elo, i've been playing a lot of QP, and with how fickle matchmaking there is, i've experienced both low gold/silver lobbies, along with grandmaster and sometimes top 500, and what i've noticed is that supports in low elo ONLY healbot, they fail to utilize most of the character's kit - not potential-wise.
Some characters in low elo however will always be played worse than others, and the same applies in high elo. This is the case for any game really, League, Dota etc.
So i am quite glad they're nerfing "those" supports as they not only impact the game too much, but also highly overshadow a lot other supports.
@@ihavevisionfearme idk if you experienced this but, when my team gets spawn stumped i cant even get infinit health cuz i have to go deeper inside of spawn to get heals, so im just stuck in one little rom running back and forth with little space. ow2 devs need to make the whole spawn room a healing place or whatever its called, so we have a fighting chance.
@@Casual314 they need to nerf bap, illari, kiriko and ana. Those 4 are gatekeeping fun. Lifeweaver is annoying but has his weakness, the 4 I mentioned are cancerous to the game
@@khaledm.1476 Yeah, lifeweaver is not on the same lebel as the other 4, but feels close potentially due to the other support further making him harder to kill. Illari pylon, ana sleep, bap immortality and kiriko's suzu are usually used to save him when you're diving him, as if you dive his support, he can lifegrip them and platform them very easily. However i do still think his power needs to be toned down in some way, either his healing or survivability.
I like the Junkrat vs Pharah image, for how it feels to play tank currently.
It's often that it feels obsolete to focus on specific targets other than the enemy tank, which most often is the main source of 'tank fun' that you'll get. But winning the tank fight is sometimes irrelevant to the overall state of the match, if your team loses to the enemy dps/supports after or while you've dealt with the other tank. Ofc there's always something one could have done better to aid your team, like not engaging the enemy tank, and thereby being closer to guard the flanks. But then you'll be giving up on the space you've created, letting the enemy move up on you anyway. Decision making as a tank, fills a bigger gap now, than it did in OW1 imo. Sometimes for the better, and sometimes for the worse.
I was smurfing in a gold lobby as a masters tank, best I ever heard was “tank you’re good” while I’m on ball, into all my counters, died once. Only time you ever hear a compliment as a tank is when you duo with someone, they notice your impact. Never once in ow 2 have I heard tank carry unless I tell the other tank player he carried.
yeah youll always hear sup diff or dps gap but never that the tank was just playing so well
Usually they’ll just say “my tank is shit” rather than “wow the other team as an insane tank”
Not like being praised for your tank gameplay doesn't exist, though. Masters in all roles, and I've heard praise being given to every role. On tank you're less likely to hear it as your impact on a game is a lot more subtle. Once some support utility has been nerfed, tank will become more playable. I don't think they will need buffs. The RPS matchups is another separate issue and has to do with the original role design from OW1. The unique kits of tanks, which were a positive in OW1 as it opened up many options in terms of counterplay and synergy, craft matchups that will make RPS a given.
No literally, the only time I ever get complimented while playing tank is when its by the enemy tank. I can go 31/2 with over 15k damage and 15k mitigated, hit 3 man ult kills and generally be a menace, and still get 0 compliments or endorsements. One time I had the most damage in the game, most mitigated, most elims on my team and least deaths on my team, and my Illari still said I was bad when they would overextend into the middle of the enemy backline and die. If we make a mistake, the loss is on us, but when we play perfectly, the win isn't on us. We can lose the game but we can't carry it
Same but I’m smurfing from Masters Ps4 to Gold Ranks on Switch. Shits annoying when they counter pick and get the easy dub
Playing tank is actually.. you kill 1 enemy distracting the other 2 and your whole team is chasing jellyfish in bikini bottom. And they say, "tank diff"
haha that's quite the analogy
Sorry, playing tank is so much frustating now for some reason 😭
The 4 main reasons it feels terrible to play tank:
-Your big impact plays are harder to pull off and get shut down way too easily. You have to bait so many cooldowns to make sure it doesn’t get negated or sometimes to even move up at all
-You are focused too much and have to eat every unfun cooldown in the game
-The Rock Paper Scissors nature of Tank makes it feel like you have to swap constantly to not be at a disadvantage
-Many tanks are way too reliant on their team’s comp and skill. It’s very hard to do anything with ball if you have no follow up from your dps. Rein can feel really bad at times without speed boost. Other rolls don’t require as much flexing or help from their team to do what they are good at
I think especially tank needs more abilities like how bap's regen burst heals more if the person is critical, doomfist punch doing more damage if you block more damage, ball getting more hp if he uses shields around more enemies. Abilities whose effect depends on how you use it and give opportunities for skill expression and snowballing off good plays.
One thought is that tanks have a huge amount of impact but that impact is mostly indirect. If you have a good tank then your team has space to make plays and the entire team plays better, while if the other team has a better tank they you are under constant pressure and can't get anything done. The impact of a good tank gets hidden because it manifests itself in good stats for the rest of the team. If a support or DPS plays well it is usually because the tank is enabling them to play well. Also, if the enemy plays to counter the tank it means the tank is going to absorb a disproportional amount of the enemy team's resources while the rest of your team fights at an advantages.
That is true, and it's where the skill of tank comes from. From a win rate optimizing perspective though, that is why tank is so frustrating to play. Creating indirect impact is always good, but if that's the only thing you can do, then it's very difficult to win the amount of games you need to climb efficiently. It's the same reason that Lifeweaver is generally a bad choice for optimizing win rate. You don't have many options to fill the gaps of your team, so you will lose more often.
The support design philosophy I like to think about is Baptiste. Baptiste has crazy good healing and damage for a support, along with good abilities, but they're on a rather long cooldown. And you still need good ass aim to use your gun. He's very high skilled but also reward if you play him correctly.
The problem is that supports have been getting more and more survivability, including Bap indirectly with newer supports giving more survivability, slowly making him go from feeling like he has 3 lives to 16 lives.
It's not that every support is broken, but recent changes and additions via new heroes (ahem Kiriko), along with a few balance changes, means that overall it's very difficult to deal with the Support's survivability as some Tank characters, then getting dunked on for not killing anyone because you can't deal enough damage or because you keep getting bullied and not swapping to Orisa.
Example: Wrecking Ball sucks right now because his whole scheme is his high mobility and Tankiness, but low damage. Because his damage is awful, he can't easily score eliminations. Because Supports have so many escape options, it's harder to chase them without entering a 1v5. Compared to the damage Ramattra, Doomfist, or even Rein can deal, who can obliterate squishy heroes much more quickly. It's not that he's a bad character, it's that everyone else is just better.
If that is good suuport phylosophy then you are just aout pf touch as devs. Bap is broken
Used to play OW1 at T500 , and not only were tanks able to punish more, but there were also a LOT less "get out of jail free" cards. Now it seems every support has more than 1 way to escape a tank, or a dps. In addition, due to the damage patterns being super spiky and (I believe its now worse than 6v6) causing healers to be beyond over-tuned. This in conjunction with mobility creep makes them frustrating to play as you cannot punish anyone for making critical mistakes. And Honestly, I think season 1 OW2 Roadhog would be much more balanced in the current state of the game than any other tank. Tanks lack a direct punish. The closest 2 that do have decent punishes while not getting instantly popped are Sigma, Orisa, and maybe Doomfist.
In Ow2, tanks can't really punish someone unless they're around 70% hp and aren't being looked at by a healer. Lets use Winston as an example. Since he is a great benchmark on whether or not the game is balanced.
Dived an enemy who was clearly over extended?
Life gripped through bubble by life weaver, petal, and weaver dashes away on followup
Suzu'd by kiri. they get healed and do lots of dmg, kiri teleports away
Kick boop spammed by zenyata who already does a ton of dmg
Blasted back by Illari & illari does a ton of dmg and her pylon keeps her alive against winston indefinately
Mercy f16 fighter jetting out of range while her beam heals the person you dove since she can zip across the entire map.
Bap.... 1.5 Extra HP bars + jump. (you can block LOS of his lamp with the bubble.) and does a ton of dmg
You can kinda see why I picked out all but ana, lucio, brig, and moira as those 4 I think are fairly balanced as theres a clear way for them to be punished if they use their CDs at the wrong time. The others... not so much.
Honestly, I would love if they nerfed healers and the overall damage of the game. But something I could only predict is them putting something as stupid as dampening into the game like they have in WoW arena, where the long the game the less healing goes out lol. That feels awful.
I like this guys videos, his vibe is very chill and composed
Thanks glad you enjoyed the video
you were absolutely right about the whole "the only time tank is fun is when you're smurfing" except I notice a problem with that. I have multiple mid/high masters accounts on tank, and yet I somehow play worse in gold/plat. i expect my team to be able to do things that they cant, which leads to me misestimating everything, along with everyone primarily shooting tanks at that rank because squishies are too much work.
See I'm sick of playing tank, I'm a tank main, but I can't anymore. Someone's always trying to counter me when I'm just trying to have fun, every character I chose that game the tank switched to counter, I don't care about winning, i don't. But if i get flamed when I'm the only one the enemy focuses on countering, why play?
Tbh the problem is the devs just need to lean into A buff the tank role more or B lower all the other numbers down because at the beginning of the game Tank felt like a raid boss which is how you're supposed to feel but because supports right now can just shutdown whatever a tank wants to do the role is mostly just sitting there.
The most carry potential tank I like to play with is Junker Queen and with Lucio speed boost, it's fun times. Knife, Axe kill combo is nice, ult purp is nice against sustain meta, Ana purp bypass shout is nice with the movement boost is nice. Used to like Sigma with Rock, Shoot kill combo but they nerfed him so he can't really get any kill confirms with this sustain meta so don't really play him anymore although he does more for team survivalibility. Hope they release a skillshot/aim-reliant mid/long range sniper tank to help with enemy snipers/fliers. Orisa/Sigma don't really count.
I really agree with the "tank feeling better at low ranks" point
by playing tank you also remove the possibility of someone else who was going to get diffed to play on such a easy to throw role
Amazing video and amazing points, another problem more for lower ranks is that most people dont know what heroes work well into full team comps, just individual heroes and tank especially is one of the easiest roles to counterpick so people default to counterpicking the tank
They’ve gotta get rid of all these turret cooldowns. When the other team has a healing pylon, Torb turret, or Symm turrets, it feels like someone has to sacrifice their life to get rid of them. It’s so unfun to have to shoot at some autonomous bullshit while the other human players gun you down for it. When I play tank, it ends up being my job to have to go in and get rid of this shit and I pay the price for it.
6v6 was better the reason we gave the rock, paper, scissors tank matchup is because we don't have the second tank player to balance out the weakness of the first. So a swap wouldn't always be a direct counter in OW1 because if your counter one tank, you haven't really countered the entire tank role.
The implication that only Doom and Ball interact with enemy backline is wild. When do you ever see top Zaryas spamming a Rein shield.
Whenever the Zarya is forced to meet the Rein at a chokepoint, and the enemy backline is standing behind the Rein shield. And Doom and Ball just interact with the backline the most, the other tanks can too, just nowhere near as much as they do.
Not at all what he said, he said that most tanks usual gameplay loops don't involve interacting with the rest of the enemy team nearly as much as Doom and Ball, who's entire gameplay loop revolves around diving into the thick of it.
critical thinking must not be taught where u live huh
Before, diving the enemy backline as a tank felt super beneficial. You had a good chance to get a kill on a squishy target who was out of position and at worst, you would make the rest of their team turn to focus you. That’s how it is supposed to work, because it’s a team game. Now, it just feels like diving the backline is a death sentence. It feels like you HAVE to play a tank on the frontline, soak up damage, and just pray that the rest of your team gets a pick before you can confidently push in.
Tank used to revolve around game sense and noticing when the enemy made mistakes so you could commit to a push. Now you’re just standing there, waiting for something to die. It’s so awful
“I haven’t played overwatch 1”. Yea this is the problem. Lots of people don’t actually know how good this game was in its early days.
Yeah double shield was "so much better..."
@@Chase_CrawfordNah, I think he was talking about 2016-2017
@@NoctisJay you mean when there were only 3 support characters and Mei could completely freeze you? Lol
@@Chase_Crawford You clearly didn't read the "early" part.
And yes, I mean when the game was peak and GOTY.
@@Chase_Crawford Was it bad enough to make the developers completely change the gameplay?
this video honestly explains the story very well, especially in the metal ranks as i can
see the reasonings behind why tank feels hard alot more.
I place Lucio so respectfully I know a good rein when I see one but I see your point
Respect. Tanks especially Rein's can get abused by their team even when they don't deserve it.
Exactly the feeling I had while I still played (last time being when Ramattra released). As long as everyone is roughly on the same skill level, there is no payout for playing right, but severe punishment for even minor mistakes.
If you do not perfectly track the abilities of all 9 other players and their ults or miss the timing on any of your cooldowns or engages/disengages, it's instant death and a lost teamfight.
However, if you do it right, you are merely "holding the line", waiting for others to make the fight-winning play.
Twice the responsibilty compared to DPS/support, but not twice the reward for doing it right, on the contrary, close to no reward.
Back at OV2 launch when the tank was some kind of raidboss, that was how it should be. The entire team stands and falls with you in both cases, but back then huge plays had huge payouts.
If that's not what the community wants, the only choice is to go back to 6v6.
Maybe I’m weird but I like playing Tank. As a tank main because essentially I’m a leader and when Mic’d up with a team that at least listens I can be in charge of the team. I play mainly junker who is fairly strong but I will switch to Ball if the enemy team has mostly long range dps and support. Knowing who counter me and how to play around that is intuitively and fun to me. But being in control of when my team pushes forward or backwards and knowing that my ULT can turn a fight around makes me feel more in charge of my team. I’ve only been playing for 2 months and I’m silver 5 scratching gold surface but if i have more control of my teams overall interactions and actions it makes me feel better about winning or losing because I feel more responsible. Maybe things will change at higher ranks but even so the main point I’m making is I enjoy tank because I enjoy being the leader of the group and I can bear the burden of us losing but also don’t need the praise of us winning
The problem is when you get to gold everyone there thinks theyre masters players so they dont listen to you. It isn't like youre watching cooldowns, keeping track of ults, countering abilities, etc (sarcasm) so when its actually time to go in and you know if your team goes in with you youll win the fight, they either dont and let you die or go in at the wrong times and you sit there thinking "dude they literally had XYZ why did you go in there"
As a long time tank player, I've always preferred to be an assertive/playmaking tank player. Not necessarily getting all the kills, but doing something that involves using the map, the enemy's weaknesses and generally hitting them in the most optimal way. I feel that playstyle is lost in this balance. Does it matter that I use high ground and drop behind the enemy when they can immo and blow me away with bastion turret? not really.
I know tank is impactful. That's not my contention. My contention is that I have to play so passive and eat so much crap that I can't do anything about or counterplay. Essentially my job is just to eat enemy aggro, damage and cooldowns and not die. Considering the tactical interest of playing dive heroes, the dynamicism that was a hero like Rein, its just really sad that my only job is aggro punching bag.
I've actually had way more fun playing dps. I do feel its on average less impactful, but it comes with a freedom to be crafty and tactical, use the map, and just generally eating less poop from the enemy team.
I've been a tank player for about 4 years now. I will probably transition to dps as a main, even tho I'm lower elo on that role, if I keep playing the game at all. I just have no fun playing tank.
The Tank role's always been fun to me. More times than not im able to feel the impact I have on my team when I'm playing good as well as when I'm under performing. In your last video and a little bit of this one you mentioned that Tanks have more responsibilites than other roles due there only being 1 tank per team, having to consume most of the team's damage, dealing with counterpicks from damn near every enemy player, etc. With that being said I dont see how the role can have the most responsibilities and also least impact. I'd also say being on the front line of enemy fire is enemy interaction. And the "You're not playing well, your match up is just playing bad" take is kinda lame to me. Yea stuff like that tends to happen in games (especially in lower rated lobbies), but I wouldn't say that's the case majority of the time in my personal experience. Sometimes people just get outplayed. Getting out played doesn't always mean you performed poorly
The way I would define impact is the ability to capitalize on the enemy making a mistake. Having a lot of responsibilities just means being able to make a lot of mistakes yourself, but not making mistakes doesn't "carry" the team. That's just the minimum requirement to not throw. Once you're able to fulfill your requirements, it's pretty much the ceiling of your potential, and you're reliant on your team to do the rest. A lot of tank players want to be more like Baptiste, and less like Lifeweaver.
@@Casual314 that's understandable but doesn't that counter the "enemy is just killing himself" take?
A great point on orisa. Changing her numbers won’t change anything as the main driver making her ridiculously strong is letting her ignore 99% of cool downs by using either of her abilities with no attached resource cost other than the ability itself
tanks create rhythm, dps create pressure, supports enable both of them. with 5v5 only one side is going to hold rhythm 80% of the time
change rhythm for momentum if you want, but i feel rhythm is more accurate. as momentum is different in overwatch ie. staggers and positions being punished late/early
One severe problem with tank right now is inability for the average tank to secure picks. Winston tickles anyone in support range, good at cleaving to get the healer, but if both healers are there you might as well get ready to jump pack out. Roadhog the "pick" tank lost most of his ability to do that and basically needs a Helix rocket direct on his hook target to finish the job. Rein it's pretty much a waste to do anything but shield and occasionally fire strike, with his two best kill tools being either charge (super risky and punishable) or earth shatter which had it's counter list go from "any other barrier" to like half the new support characters abilities and ults. Orisa is a tank bully meant to harass and make space between the enemy tank and the team but besides javelins on enemies out of position not a lot of outright fragging. Sig and Ram are kinda poke tanks with most of their power in their ult and their kit's versatility, but no real pick or movement potential. The three best off at holding their own are Doom (great mobility, can actually get picks alone, struggles with hard counter DPS and even Orisa), Zarya (insane damage, great ability, but has the same tank problem with range and has no mobility tool outside of blast jumping slightly off right click), and Dva (good enough damage, great mobility, enough health to brawl between cooldowns, eat is insane utility, just struggles with beam attacks and a few other things, but she can work around it sometimes. Anyone who says Zarya hard counters Dva plays it wrong, just kill the healers before Zarya kills you), but each are susceptible to one or two counterpicks and just lacking somewhere in their kit. It's pretty awkward one way or another, especially with the power of supports.
i don't have an ultrawide but you could probably letterbox to a 16:9 res and record that way if you are concerned about the screen being cut off
It baffles me anyone even still plays this game at all. I have not seen a positive video about this game since its release.
As a tank main since the dawn of ow1 playing tank use to be one person picks a main tank ( a tank with a shield whos goal is to be the main punching bag) and an auxillary tank (a tank with no shield who can still soak damage but assists with kills) who can fill in when shields are on cooldown but helps dps secure kills with their kit. Though many aspects of them game has been reworked to accommodate the one tank playstyle i still feel like theres to many responsibilities for one tank to handle and your often left at the mercy of your dps and supports to do either keep you alive and or get kills which isnt a bad thing but some tank characters have grown to be reliant on their team like reinhardt while other tanks have grown to be to powerful when properly supported such as orisa. Over all the balance goes in two directions and it hardly ever meets in the middle. The counter aegument for 6v6 was the cc hell we all endured but even then it wasnt the worst thing imaginable. And now that kiriko and lifeweaver exists most bad cc sitations can be solved by those two. I might be an old ow1 boomer but i sure miss the 2-2-2 comp.
I'm a one trick master dps player with around 150 hours, when I tried to queue tank my mmr was in around dia. I was shocked on how little impact I could actually get, the amount of 3 man gravs that would just get 0 value due to immortality field etc. Definitly never playing tank again xD
As a Zarya main, I do relate
i honestly dont think you could be more right about the state of tank right now. although im new to climbing on tank, ive always enjoyed playing doomfist. his movement techs, high mobility and his ability to make plays reliably despite being a tank hero really drew me to like his playstyle however right now ive never had a more miserable time playing him. in this season he was nerfed despite being an average tank at best due to the supports survivability being nerfed but this dosent take into account the dps who are now harder to reliably kill an no nerfs actively placed on most of them. whenever i actually am playing good as doom i almost always see a tank switch to orisa (which tbh isnt really that bad) or a sombra and cass appear in their team. because im at such a low rank right now the people around me never help when im hacked allowing the sombra to go in and out as she pleases sometimes even getting a kill for free and with cass i try to go in and apply pressure with a power dive and gain ult charge but when i try to get out a grenade is thrown at me and the entire team then focuses me. idk if its a skill issue on my behalf but it almost feels like i cant stay back with my team because of the threat of sombra but i also cant go in and do something because of the grenade not to mention that the healing supports still give out only makes dooms unreliable kills harder to get. with blizzard trying to convert tanks into a glorified bullet sponge a hero like doomfist who has 450 hp and is a playmaker who creates space through killing squishes has no real place in the tank role.
Wtf.. tank is necessary, as main dps I normally don't start my attacks with out the tank distracting
6v6 ... Thats all it takes to fix this. But the devs dont play tank so they dont give a damn
Great video! Thought I’d add that That in diamond on support and dps people seem to credit tank appropriately. Chat might express it as “tank gap” when your tank was better, etc.
Yeah I think people do respect the tank more at the higher ranks, recognizing that the tank did the best they could with what they have. But of course there's always going to be the guy using "gamer words".
@@Casual314 Yeah perhaps I'm immune to certain negativities lol. You've got very well said points, I just thought I'd add a little data to the sample size! Definitely my new favorite gaming channel. If you ever have a channel slogan I'd like to propose 'unreasonably rational" because I think I said that out loud the first time I watched one of your OW videos lol
im hard stuck bronze tank on one account and platinum tank on my alt. bronze because i keep getting stuck with dps with no damage and supports that only heal and keep dying. no matter how much i try to carry, it seems like our team loses no matter what. on my plat account, it is much more about reading my team and adjusting to their playstyle. but one thing thats annoying is when my team bashes me and blames me for our loss when the opposing teams dps and supports were just better. also, i want 2 tanks back. just wish they would make it main tank and off tank roles. then balance each role accordingly to prevent ow1 shields stalemates.
you might want to turn up the volume. i was just watching a news channel and i had to the turn the vol 10 points to make out words.
This was a fire vid, congrats on 2k man!
Thanks Pineapple 💖
Im really considering coaching thanks to your videos... I know I can be better because I've gotten so close to it before and as someone who started OW+OW2 in bronze it only serves to motivate me to climb higher. In the current meta, one of the many problems tanks face is how many cooldowns there are that almost instantly get value & instantly punish a tank player's aggression or mistakes. I mostly main ball now because of my ability to directly impact the game through skill (soloing a squishy to force the 1v1) (skill checking ana sleep darts) but as someone with more hours on Rein than I'd like to admit, I think the majority of the discontent with the tank role, is how much support & power creep has taken away from the tank role.
As a ball player, one of the things I face the most is taking 4 to 6 different cooldowns when I try to make a play (going after a squishy, trying to punish someone that's alone or chasing a kill) often getting sleep, anti-nade, hacked, javelin is the point where I know my chance of making it out of that combo are very slim, more often none. What's the alternative? Like you said, play Orisa, cycle cooldowns, and just stand there. Boring. Play Rein, hold shield, play corners, hold shield, take cooldowns, and just stand there. Boring. Play Sigma, hold shield, use suck, rock the tank, and just stand there. Boring. Yet, when you counter-pick the tank, you in turn get counter picked... and it has turned the majority of OW2 into a very complex game of Rock, Paper & Scissors.
Also, I don't think the mentality of now with 1 tank, we have the responsibility of 2, its a very Overwatch 6v6 take, and we're not playing that game anymore. We have to think of 5v5 as its own subjective thing separated from what 6v6 used to be, which begs the question, how can we make tank role more impactful? Because it feels like what we have currently falls short of what the vast majority of the player base was used to in 6v6, and the 1 role which was previously 2 isn't as impactful as it needs to be.
It's always possible to become a better player given the motivation, I think it's great that you have the belief in yourself that you can do it. Remember to always be willing to change your ideas about the game and admit that you might be doing something wrong. If you can do that, you'll get the most value you can out of coaching. Best of luck.
I was playing the other day, and having to switch between several tanks throughout one game made me have a thought. switching to 5v5 now means that one tank has to fill 2 roles. With 6v6, you could have a Rein to protect support/dps, and a Winston (or ball) to make space. In 5v5 though, One tank has to make space, and protect other teammates. My perspective comes from Silver and Gold, ans tanks and support always seem to be blamed for losses.
Yeah in order to play tank you have to have the mentality and know right off the bat it's fun in a different way. You have to be thinking that your role is baiting cooldowns (nor fun because your supposed to absorb or take them and even ults), distracting, killing squeeshies and in so doing, you'll create space for your team to enable them (should they not engage, you play safe near them and wait for your cooldowns to create off angles or kill ppl overextending while also playing high groumd and more importantly, around natural cover like corners)so in time you'll develop the criteria of when are you going in to bait and distract or when are you going in for the kill (im playing winston, for example) also being a tank involves you having good awareness of your team's locations so you don't overextend and this still have access to heals (pushing in deep can get you killed and hinder your team despite you baiting said cooldowns). You also need to play high ground if possible, corners and chokes (always consider ally team LOS) also MU knowledge which comes in time. Ngl it is team dependant and at the beginning stressful while you learn, but i believe that there is more in one's hands that we tanks can do than we think.
I've been playing tanks in games for over 25 years. If there's one thing that I have learned in every game that includes a tank it's this: Tanks will always be the least picked role because it's the most demanding and the most team reliant and the most called out.
The only time tanks become extremely fun is when your tank is overpowered. In RPG's that means having equipment that buffs your stats over the level that the content was balanced for. In Overwatch, (all other team variables being equal) that's your tank simply performing far above the enemy team tank.
I played Overwatch since launch and tanking wasn't any better in 6v6. In fact, there was an entirely different set of problems with the role. Most people that wanted to play tank only wanted to play "off tanks". That means tanks that play more like DPS with large health pools like Zarya or Hog. Worse yet, most of those off tanks wanted to play like they were the main tank and removed any agency from the main tank. If I'm the "main tank" then my team should be following me so I'm able to properly in engage the enemy team. In OW1 what actually happened more often is the main tank would choose one route for engagement, the off tank would ignore it and go elsewhere, then the rest of the team would split up (usually unevenly) between both tanks leaving neither group in a good position to engage then everyone would die.
Then the ensuing "tank diff" and trash talk etc would start and just leave you not wanting to play the role anymore. Which then lead to over 1 hour queue times because no one wants to play a role that requires your team to follow you (when they don't), heal you (when the support is getting shot by the enemy), and attack your same target (when they're not even looking in your direction) and yet your team does none of this and therefore you literally can't make any impact and the cherry on top is that you then get berated by either the enemy team or your own team or sometimes both.
Meanwhile I swap to DPS for the rest of my gaming session and I literally don't need a team to create impact in any match I join. I wonder what role everyone will play?
If there's one issue OW2 solved by removing the "off tank" role it's that there's only one tank on your team so everyone should know who to follow, and know to position themselves accordingly to the only tank that is on your team. If you cannot do these two things, then the skill of your tank is likely not what's causing your game to end in defeat. A tank cannot be a leader if everyone refuses to follow him. It is always better for your team to die together because of a terrible engagement from your tank (don't worry he'll realize it) than for everyone to not engage with him at all and him repeat the engagement thinking that it would have succeeded if the team would have actually engaged together.
Yes in my low rank it feels exactly like that. Either roll (if the enemy tank doesn't know what their are doing or my team is really good) or get rolled (if the enemy tank is way better than me or has a team that can capitalize on plays).
Also playing support at that level those super aggressive Rein plays only work if you work like crazy to keep them alive, but then they are terrible on the receiving end. Otherwise it's insta death for the Rein. But again that's more the impact of the support.
When I look at WOW I wonder why tank feels fun there. It's because you can control the battlefield by manipulating the mobs. I wonder if more impact on the battlefield / space would be a good direction for tanks to go. Like ice wall. Or even Sigma shield a bit because you can prevent healing of the enemy frontline.
That's also maybe why Zarya still feels good, if the enemies are playing decent and shoot your support you can protect them. You can also enable your flankers / divers with bubbles. Plus a good grav forces the enemies into bad positions.
I'd like to see more of that.
Tank role has always been and forever the core of Overwatch gameplay. From OW1 to the new OW, developers must put themselves together and fix this issue before next year (season 8) or this game won't survive another year in healthy state
They literally save every major changes for season 8, basically next year making the same tactics they did with season 6 with the title "Official Release", saving up the contents to prolong the interest of consumers
Tanks gained a lot of survivability in OW2. The breakpoints they gain in they health when combined with healing being unchanged gives tank players much more survivability than in OW1. In OW1 zen was a monster capable taking down most tanks that couldn't block his damage, and kill him.
Doomfist is actually extremely impactful right now, just really difficult to pick up and just play like other tanks.
Ever since the 6 second Slam came back we've had a resurgence of Doom cause he's not unintuitive anymore.
I was a gm rein/dva player in overwatch 1 but swapped over to only playing dps with the release of overwatch 2 because I cannot stand the way tank plays in 5v5. The game was designed at its core to have two tank players working in unison to exchange their abilities and assist one another in both protecting their team and controlling the game. Reducing that down to one person has resulted in a huge imbalance in player impact. When each role had 2 players the responsibilities were divided evenly, and one players shortcomings could be made up for by the other player on their role. With the loss of a tank there is so much more pressure on tanks, which has led to them needing to be way overtuned, and for supports to be given abilities like suzu and life grip. In overwatch 1 if your rein over extended it was a team effort to save him, zarya bubbles or defense matrix would help mitigate damage and make way for him to get back to safety. With the loss of that help and synergy, abilities like suzu and life grip are a necessity, but feel far more bullshit than the help of an off tank ever did. They make it feel like instead of two tanks being a synergistic tank line that helps one another with their abilities, a single support has the ability to effortlessly and skill-lessly undo any mistake a tank player makes.
I'm in the lower tiers and I main support, but got seduced by the queue times and I have a lot of fun tank with the idea that I'm here to not throw and the mentality is actually freeing me to get better
honestly the junkrat pharah comparison for tank is such a good comparison for a tank especially vs certain dps/supports
imo tanks get way too hard countered by way too many characters inside and outside of the role like tank busters, flying characters, supports with immor abilities and debuffers in general with not enough to respond with other than just hoping your own team's dps are able to kill faster them leading to an experience where you just feel like a push robot being pushed further along when your team wins and getting pushed back when your team loses trying to soak up damage and antinades like a sponge with rare opportunities to actually pressure the enemy team yourself without everybody behind you dying which means you only have fun maybe 2% of the time when you get the opportunity to pop off and it actually goes your way and the other 98% of the time your teammates yell at you for not being able to kill the enemy pharah as a tank player with limited range meanwhile they have a pocket mercy.
we're in a weird spot at the moment where tanks can't really make plays since we can't kill anybody if a single support has an immor ability or just heals whoever we go after and there's too much damage flying around that the 400-600hp pool gets destroyed within an instant if you leave cover without an ability to protect us yet the devs force most of our value to come from taking/blocking damage while also trying to not take up much of the support's resources meaning if you peek an angle and take damage you're doing it wrong, if you peek an angle and don't take damage you're doing it wrong, if you try to pressure the enemy dps/supports and the enemy tank pushes into your team as a response you're doing it wrong and if you shoot the tank you're doing nothing except padding stats. the only way to play well on tank is to play tank well and there's no way to gauge what you're exactly doing wrong/right without experiencing the opposite but your random dps teammates who're 5-9 will let you know that you're the reason their wife left them and their kid died a painful death.
What class has the most impact when team fight break out? Or in the sense that if a class can be put to its best situation, which one will be the determining factor of winning the fight?
Supports powercrept healing renders tank damage near useless, DPS had their burst increased or players have turned to more bursty options to outdamage the heals, and Supports are currently good at everything, more notably Bap being literally the best dueler in the game rn with around 350+ hp, and Ana literally controlling the fight with her bio and sleep. Hopefully, these upcoming support nerfs bring back more Tank potential (their damage will actually mean something), and burst can be lowered a bit. I say this as a GM DPS and Supp player. I don't play tank, but they're just kinda there atm. Unless it's Doomfist, he's super annoying in high ranks in the hands of good players, but that's rare and he's still easy to shut down.
I'm one of those in your comment section that basically said, tank skill diff (I said games depended on tank, and support had barely any impact). Now that I've gotten some free time to play ow, I went tank only (im a flex player bc I get bored playing the same role non stop). I was shocked by the massive meta change in the span of 2 months. I actually believe that tank is almost useless. Dps are now hybrid tanks, Mei and Bastion. Support are hybrid dps, Illari, bapt. If I saw a tracer and a genji in my team vs mei and bastion (actually happened twice in a row for me), it was game over. Also, the biggest annoyance is that everyone would get insta killed as I tried protecting them (I was basically being ignored by the other team most of the time), then I would be the last alive every single time then insta die. It felt like being a spectator who couldn't die but also couldn't kill. So I swapped to dps and in the first game, our tank kept going afk. We still won easily.
Yeah I don't blame you at all if you felt that tank was the strongest role. I think it absolutely was for a while until semi-recently, so I would have said "skill diff" as well a few months ago. There's of course still skill expression in tank, but you just don't get the same results in terms of carry potential as the other roles for the same amount of effort anymore. Mei Bastion is definitely a very annoying comp to deal with as tank, and if they play well, there's almost nothing you can do except hope that they make a big mistake. Blizzard is planning some changes, but I have a feeling that it'll be a while before tank gets promoted from being a "spectator".
It’s just incredible to me that they’ve taken the least popular role in OW1 and somehow made it less fun to play. Tank queue times are back to where they were in ow1. CC feels worse even if there’s less of it because you get all of it. Mobility and immortality creep you can’t punish mistakes or bad positioning. Healing creep took feels like you engage and retreat, engage and retreat, engage and retreat and nothing ever dies but you made space and that’s the fun part of tanking right? You pop your slow charging ult, gets counter-ulted because everyone else has faster charging ults. You win the first fight because your attacked with rock to their scissors and they respawn with paper. You switch but your team doesn’t switch with you the team still loses “tank diff”. The supports pick mercy/lucio, mercy/illari, Moira/anything you lose in spawn “tank diff”. I know I over-embellished a lot but there’s so many things that can go wrong out of your control, so much responsibility on the role of tank, it’s just not fun. I don’t think blizzard really cares either. I’ve played since day 1 and I have been a main tank player and it’s never been as bad as now.
We dont need 6v6 back. Tank at the end of OW 1 was atrotious and tank in the beta and start of OW 2 was fantastic.
The issue is the current ballance philosophy that blizzard has for supports and tanks. Theres too much powet in the support role and they seem to not like tanks being play makers
I personally feel that blizzard shouldn't have taken away the off-tank role in the first place because the purpose of the off-tank should be supporting the main-tank with splitting up the damage and enemy team so your damage and support heroes can do their jobs more effectively.
I enjoy enabling my teammates to do cool stuff and win us the game, and I don't love the pressure of playmaking. On paper, the role for me should be support, but I am finding that actually, tank is great for doing exactly this. The amount of games I lock Reinhardt and shield burst damage for my team while denying the enemy tank from walking and just playing for shatter is crazy. It's a bad sign when I play the least engaging game of Reinhardt ever played, and after we win and the enemy team begins to tear each other apart, the enemy Ramattra, who has nearly double my damage and elims, simply says they lost to a tank diff, and I know he's right.
Diamond tank here. I'm playing all tanks, but mostly hamster&dva. I'm good off tank and used to play in enemies backline and distracting them, eating abilities, etc. I use my skill to fill gap between our and their dps. I'm doing good, i climbed that way from bronze 3. Sometimes, i have to play against JQ or Doom (Last season, way often, almost each game is JQ&Doom). They are frequently eliminating my team. It's not a problem, i just switch hero and focus enemy tank.
But if one of dps or supp suck, i can't do anything. Even if i win tank duel, its doesnt matter. I wasted all my attention to their tank. And meanwhile, flankers destroying my backline. And i can't do anything about it. My teammates are not doing anything to counter them. For example: I take orisa to counter JQ or Doom, and wasting all my time to protect team from being bullied by their tank. But hey, there are genji&tracer in backline. And widow&sojorn in frontline. Cant take zarya for genji. I cant take ball or winston for snipers. I HAVE TO STAY WITH THEIR TANK, WHILE MY TEAM IN BACK BEING FUKED IN THE BUTT BY FLANKER AND SNIPERS. (Also i died without healing, supports are dead).
tanks are in a weird spot. they need the ability to carry or at least have a more defined role. small things like have Rams circle deal a small amount of explosion damage if the enemy’s catch half the duration in it. this encourages attacking a group or breaking a line. tanks need spearhead potential. the ability to engage like either a spear or a hammer depending on their kit, and either get out or sustain. supports are ~fine~ right now but tanks don’t have the proper abilities to deal with what the game is now.
IMO tank is Counterwatch. I mained hog for years. Now, I pick hog, they pick Orisa, Dva. I pick rein, they pick doom or ram. There’s also too many “oops”fixers. Suzu, grip, petal, lamp. It’s honestly exhausting and I no longer play tank regularly. All damage with a sprinkle of support. Loving on hanzo right now.
I think for the most part up untill recently tank has been overall a better experience, except for season 1 where it was pretty must just zarya and orisa (kinda like now but not as bad for different reason since support is way too strong rn) and season 2 where hog was good so it was mostly hog and orisa. Theres still the problem with getting tank diffed where it feels worse getting outplayed by the enemy tank but its not just the tank, having the better support to keep the better tank alive is the real killer. 6v6 could have been balanced much better but unfortunately going to 5v5 was the easier solution for blizzard, at the end of ow1's life double shield was the meta and i honestly hated it as a tank main. Comparitively the state of ow1 to ow2 I enjoy tank more now because I feel like I have more impact (I have been playing since 2016 so experience is a factor here) but i can understand why new players think ow2 tanks have less since it feels so bad to play tank right now, you take all the damage, all the cc, get blamed for losses. Ow2 currently is better than the state of ow1 but 6v6 had better potential.
Reading some comments I have to say that I'm very impressed because you respond/react to everyone. And I agree with you, even as a silver tank the game isn't fun at all, you have the pressure to get a lot of damag, kills, push and fight the enemy tank, even if your supports aren't healing you and you always get blamed if the team loses. Never playing ranked tank again.
Too many people maining their one or two roles then backseating their tank. I play other role oriented games too and embrace the duties required. Always seems like many other players don't understand their role niche nor their hero's subrole, preferring to have no self direction nor responsibility to their team. I guess it makes flaming other people guiltless if they're ignorant to their own faults.
When I was playing tank in Silver (but it does happen in every rank), I did notice that non-tank players kind of expect their tank to "carry" them or make up for their mistakes. I won the majority of my games, so I didn't flamed too often, but even the enemy team would complain to my team that they got tank diffed when they were caught out of position all game. Unfortunately learning to deal with that is one of the more frustrating aspects of learning to get better at tank.
Being a very new player to OW2, I'm really running into a lot of this. I KNOW I suck, I'm a couple months into learning how to play, and queueing for any role throws me into tank more than anything else (which has also meant when I get the rare occasion to play DPS, I suck even more at that--I have much, MUCH less experience). It's completely disincentivized trying to play competitive, because it's glaringly obvious to everyone that I, their tank, suck, and they're going to flame the shit out of me for that!
Used to be a (off)tank main back in ow1. You could really feel the impact each role made in every single game. Now it's too frustrating to play as tank: you're like a sponge for the bullets and that's it. I want 6v6 back, but without shields at all.
The only fun tank imo is doomfist. And he can actually solo carry, but more often than not he needs his supports and needs to understand his and their placements and the distance and which supports hes with.
What I liked about 6v6 is having another player to play off of. I actually played in open division toward the end of ow1 and I was playing main tank (rein, orisa, winston, ball) and it was nice to have a zarya bubble when going in, a defense matrix while engaging, a sigma shield to cover the off angles etc. Now you either can't do it at all or have to make do with what little resources you have. Being expected to play the role of two tanks as one tank I believe is the sole reason tank sucks in ow1.
me and my friends haven't been playing comp for a while, we play qp open queue and usually run zarya with some other tank the combo plays just feel so good
“Skull issue” is what you say when your mad and have no arguement🗿
I just hope the changes they will do to the support will be good I can't wait cause I can't even kill a dps with nano blade it's so crazy man
I started with OW2 and just recently tried tanking after doing hundreds of DPS games. Was Sigma and they were Orisa. We sat in a team fight 5v5 for so long with no one dying until I had 12k damage and 15k mit, that’s when we finally killed the enemy supports and they crumbled. Won that game but it felt so boring with nothing happening for so long it didn’t even feel like I did anything. Even if I knocked down the enemy bap and hit him with my autos I just couldn’t kill fast enough cuz the DPS on my team only hit Orisa
Tbh i kinda wish the game WAS just TF2 with powers. If the tanks were more like Heavy, still slow and powerful, but not to the extreme on both counts. Then there literally wont be a need for any roles but healer. And since its 5v5 now, even more so since each player has to do more, so the characters should be more generalists. Theyre trying too hard to be an MMO where tanks are bullet sponges, but players arent NPCs. They can target whoever they want. So tanks have to be a threat, so they have to be juiced up, so they have to limit them. So if tanks were less like mechs and more like Soldier 76 wearing swat armour and less accuracy, with abilities just more around defense, tanks might be a lot more balanced. Bidgette was a step in the right direction. But its so big in OW identity as a whole, that you cant simply just undo.
Playing Winston the other day dived bap with in 10 seconds he was suzued, immortality fieald then I was hindered by Cas nade hooked by hog and killed it sucked
You just have to bait suzu and lamp and then disengage unfortunately. Baiting support cooldowns is really the best thing you can do to "carry". It kinda sucks
Bap has become such a dishonest support. He was already very powerful in 6v6 but he was easily dealt with if you baited his cooldowns properly, OW2 has overkitted every supports healing to an insane degree not to mention their strong passive role.
It is. I played a game where we had 3 DPS 2 healers and we just killed the tank then deleted everybody else. Honestly it felt like a weight was dropped off my shoulders cause I usually play Tank lol.
I'm unhappy with tank because I chose it to be a leader and make huge plays, and when I'm feeling like helping others get huge plays, I go support. Not the other way around.
The devs want you to switch in overwatch 2. Tank switching has more impact than any other role
The problem is every role is doing everting ! Tank has health and damage, DPS has damage and heals, Support has heals and damage and evade. I believe the solution is too:
- Give tanks invulnerable to any Nade, CC, Stun, Boop, .... and Decrease the damage.
- Remove DPS self healing and 1 Shots and decrease damage to tanks
- Decrease Support Damage, Remove self healing (Self suzu, Moira Orb, Bap Self Lamp, ...) Increase health or support passive.
Also to remove the rock, paper, scissors: The switch can be limited at least on Competitive. For example 3 switch per round ! So instead of counterplay, people could learn how to counter something by creative plays with their favorite hero. The game can be much more fun this way, tanks would get rid of DPS switching to counter tank, and game becomes more skillful.
Hit the nail on the head. I've been screaming about this for a while now, that tank is consistently getting nerfs and is losing more and more agency every season. They are the scapegoat of the community, ever since GOATS was a thing.
I find myself only playing doomfist and zarya, as they are the two tanks that I feel I have the most agency to determine the outcome of the match. I peak in masters, but play with my friends often in Plat, and can agree that every tank feels fine when you're smurfing a few ranks. But in masters? The only viable tanks are orisa and Zarya. Both do the same thing - just exist. Zarya bubbles her team to prevent their mistakes from getting punished, whereas Orisa has the smallest window of opportunity to punish her mistakes.
Sigma is pretty good right now as well, but since the rock combo nerf he feels like you can't punish people at all unless the entire team focuses them.
I think we just need to reduce healing from a few supports, and rethink a few abilities and the game will be just fine. The overall gameplay loop outside of these things is generally good, and fun to paly with.
Kiriko:
Swiftstep needs to require LOS. Suzu needs to pick 2 of the three: Heal, Cleanse, Immortality. Kunai damage on headshot needs to be reduced from 135 down to around 80 (2x instead of 2.5x).
Baptiste:
Regenerative burst needs to NOT heal him for 150 HP. Immortality field needs a rework of some kind, likely into the realm of damage reduction as a proactive cooldown that requires some train of thought to make a dicision about.
Illari:
Pulse rifle damage needs to be lowered, headshot dealing 80-90 damage.
Zen:
Discord orb needs to either be a cooldown, or be replaced with a second harmony orb.
Mercy:
Damage boost needs to be on a cooldown, rez should be an ultimate, and valkyrie should be a cooldown.
Moira:
Make damage hitscan, (I dont think this makes a difference, but she's only good in pisslow, so Idrc about this character)
For tank, you just need to do a few things:
Doomfist:
Slam slow comes back OR increase damage on normal punch.
Dva:
Rework ultimate to operate differently. Currently it's only used as a second-life, with very low viability to make plays with. Make it explode faster, reduce remech timer on it, whatever so that it doedsn't feel awful to use. Make DM a projected shield OR enable it to block beams. Zarya as a hard counter for no reason other than damage type feels bad to lose to, even if your character requires more skill to get the same value.
Zarya:
Increase base damage for beam, reduce %dmg gain from charge. This will make baseline value better, and encourage utility usage of bubbles rather than charge usage of bubbles.
Monkey:
Increase dmg of taser gun slightly (10% or less)
Rein:
Pin to 250, swing to 100 dmg, give some form of mobility outside of pin?
Ball:
He's fine, leave him in the depths of hell. High skill cap, required to get value, that's fine.
Sigma:
Rock dmg reverted
Ramattra:
Needs to be better outside of nemesis form. Increase proj speed or something? Make the vortex go to the skybox to allow him to be anti-pharah, as well as decrease lateral movement speed.
Orisa:
Fine as is, the 40% nerf wasn't warranted, but is fine as is. Works primarily as anti-brawl option, doesn't need to be used outside of that.
JQ:
Fine as is.
Your suggested damage nerfs don't work imo. There's no reason a projectile should only be dealing 80 on a headshot. Kiriko just needs everything else about her tuned down to make up for her good damage. Also it's 112.5 dmg rn
Illari's headshot only doing 90 would be awful too, that's only 15 dmg more than a bodyshot. She just needs her bullet to be the same size as other hitscans.
@@ryan_uwu Headshot dealing 80-90 damage means that she does 40-45 damage for a bodyshot ... what?
Nobody is hitting kiri headshots across the map. NOBODY. Don't play like you do either. Almost everyone plays kiri the same way - they either try to healbot(they're bad) or they play her like a pseudo flanker and get up close on a flank and try to assassinate somebody with cheesy headshots.
Tell me now how last season was the first time you climbed to diamond 5, and then camped your rank this season.
The bullet nerf is warranted as well, but I'd also like to see supports lose this ability to 2 tap anybody aside from tanks. 3 shots? Sure, 4? fine. There's no reason a support should be a better duelist than the DPS.
@@noahodum9737 I just assumed you didn't change anything about her base damage lol. You aren't seriously suggesting 45(90) dmg for a full charge every second, that's lower dps than the entire roster aside from like Winston.
I'm actually not opposed to a Kiri damage nerf, i just think your numbers gut the characters. She could be 50 base dmg with 2x multiplier. Or they could lower her fire rate again. Kiriko's damage wouldn't be bad if she didn't also have insane utility and survivability.
And chill with the rank shaming, you're better lol, I'm just saying your suggestions are unbalanced.
Most supports only out duel dps because of their survivability, not their damage numbers, Kiriko is prob the exception. If DPS have 5/5 dmg, supports have 3/5 dmg with 5/5 survivability.
@@ryan_uwu Ngl wasn't really trying to rank shame, merely making the comment that people that share your viewpoint tend to be in lower elo, and I've seen a lot of 5 game andies lately
It wouldn't change much but lower TTK - which almost always increases skill cieling.
Unless you're incredibly skilled at tank, you'll either be overshadowed by the dps or get carried so much by your support that they might as well play the game for you. I really hope Ow2 regulates that (the probably won't) but until then ima keep playing Sigma
Yo. I was a wreckingball main. I loved tanking. I was a tank! I learned reinhart so I could have a second tank when someone else picked wreckingball in ow1. Playting rein with ball was just as fun as playing ball back then. Because I know I had a solid fron and I could focus the overall gameplay and flanking pressure.
Theese days... I never go tank. I go support and feel sry for the guy playing tank.....
"Now maybe, everybody's just stupid" -Casual
Right now a tank is around 1,5 of an OW1 tank. What if they increase the tanks' hp to be more around 2 OW1 tanks, but also decrease the dmg by 1/4 or 1/3 (except the ults, these should still be very impactful)?
That would make tanks less dominant in lower ranks and at the same time with more hp harder to kill = usually not worth to focus on. It would open a possibilty to go deeper, create more plays and decrese responsibility bagage.
With that change though, it would also require giving every tank a utility similar to Sigma, since for example Roadhog has nothing to offer other than hook and dmg.
Tanks not being able to consistantly one-shot combo, especially in lower ranks, could lead to team success dependant on tank-dps cooperation ("Ashe, why you don't shoot the knocked down target" instead of "Sigma, you messed up you rock combo"), increasing dps' possible influence.
Increasing hp could definitely be a part of the solution. I'm not sure about decreasing damage across the board, I think as long as tanks aren't melting/one-shotting everyone I think the damage can stay as it is. I like Spilo's take on the issue that it's too easy to deny the value that a tank is trying to create, and they need more tools to deal with all the ways they can be countered.
Really think the Overwatch team could take notes from what the balance over on Paladins looks like
Tank is good at tanking with decent supports but I agree completely. I spend most of my time just absorbing cooldowns while doing almost nothing to the enemy team. And if I’m not in LOS of support I die instantly because COD boy soldier only hits headshots. It feels like you’re locked into just standing in from of the team and taking damage without any damage potential
As a master/gm player that constantly smurfs in metal ranks i love running gold lobbies as doomfist or roadhog.
They are the only fun tanks anymore and im good enough to make them work even into counters like ana and zen but only while smurfing. I dont play tank on my main account bc i refuse to play orisa just to win. And i live the shock and surpise and the praises from my gold team when i carry on hog/doom and they notice me.
Thats why i smurf. Bc it feels good to be complimented by my team. Especially on a hero like doom and hog when peolle think they suck but you show them how good the hero can be if played properly.
When im not smurfing in gold though im a support main(ana) bc she has such high impact, when i lose i know its because i didnt land my shots/nades and its my fault.
When i lose games on tank or dps i almost always blame my supports for picking LW, Mercy combo or mercy moira combo because as an ana player i know how high her impact is and mercy, lw, moira and lucio do not even come close to competing.
Lifeweaver counters almost all tank ults and kiriko counters everything except ults that multi hit