Thanks to everyone who's been following my watchmaking lathe journey, and providing much-appreciated advice and moral support! If you're entering the story in the middle, here's a chronological playlist of the videos in this 'Not a Tutorial' 😉 series: th-cam.com/video/CMPds8SO-68/w-d-xo.htmlsi=jg_7zMzd4L-cgnM6
Hi Mike, a little tip. You will find much stability when you put the material to be cut into a collet. A drill chuck is not really designed to take sideways force. Also with the workpiece that far from the headstock you get much more vibration! Hope this helps.
Hi again MIke. I might be able to help with the issues you have. First with the first turning. You set the tool post to height which is good. But you didn't allow for the thickness of the graver's tip and any angle you might be holding it at. As a result the cutting edge was mostly much too high and you had to try to compensate for it by angling the edge over to a much too strongly negative top rake. As a result it was just scrapping the metal rather than cutting it. Then when you used the tip which was more in line with the correct height and the geometry at the cut was closer to a neutral to only slightly negative top rake you got curls. What you need is to lower the tool rest in connection with how you use the tool so the upper surface of the edge is neutral or only around 5 to 7 degrees at most negative to the metal. Then you'll get curls galore without any risk of digging in. And when you go on to cutting steel this will be even more important in that you want to be at most perhaps within 2 degrees negative at most. And with steel even a couple of degrees of positive top rake isn't an issue. Steel wants to naturally push the cutter away so aim for flat/neutral top rake but a couple of degrees of positive isn't going to make you jump at all. On that little jig you showed at the end. Because of how it holds the blank to the stones the edge you are considering dulling with a slight flat is also the cutting tip. So a hard NO on flattening that edge. Instead see if you can make up a mini V block that rests on the top of the tool's edge and fits within the arc of the hole. And I'd also reach into the V of the jig itself with a fret saw with metal cutting blade and make the "V" into a short tailed "Y so the edge of the tool does not rest against any slight radius in the corner. You're essentially doing what you see on commercial V blocks which have this same relief groove both for aiding with the final grinding and also with holding sharp edged stock that we don't want to ride up on any small corner radius. Those blanks you have are HSS. They come fully hardened and ready for use. And they are extremely hard to damage with the sort of heating we do with our home shop. And that's good because the technique for hardening and tempering HSS is WELL outside the capabilities of most home shop setups. Do a web search for "how to heat treat hss" and get ready for some big numbers that will sit you back in your home shop seat :D Since you will be doing a lot of diamond angle grinding with your bench grinder you might want to consider making up a new tool rest that you can swap out. Instead of a flat table do a simple edge on "L bend for the rest so the actual rest surface is the edge and not the flat of the bent piece. And then on top of that file the edge at a 45 angle leaving only a 1/32 or so flat edge. That way when you are holding the blanks at a steep angle to get the angle needed the support is under that edge that is really close to the wheel. So less shock and kicking with the tool in your hand... And speaking of which.... The last thing you want with a short 1/8 square HSS blank that has sharp edges is to catch and rip through our delicate digits. So I strongly suggest you get a 6 to 8 inch long piece of 1/2" or bigger round bar and drill a hole in the end that fits the 1/8 square blank and in the side put another hole for a set screw. That way if anything nasty happens your hands just get a nasty bump and your sense of wrong a little jolt. But at least your fingers won't be leaking. The same sort of edge on rest like this would also be nice to use with the diamond face wheel if you decide to get one. I smiled at your" Chuck Jacobs" because the little I've done with my own watchmaker's lathe used that same setup that I made using my big lathe. I've since gotten some additional WW collets and have the sizes i need to hold most of the imperial sizes from 1/8 to 1/4. That's a BIG comment but I hope it helps out with your journey into micro machining. Me? I still need to dress the bed of mine a little so the head and tail stock ride on the ways correctly. Darn flakey nickel plating..... Cheers!
Oh, wow, so much goodness in your comments! Thank you for the suggestions to keep my digits from leaking! Nobody wants leaking digits! 😂 your suggestions on how to hold the graver are very good, so I'm going to re-read them when I am at the leave, and adjust my technique accordingly. Thank you so much, stay tuned and continued good luck taming the finish on your new lathe! Please keep us posted how it is going.
Hey Mike: With HSS gravers you need to be aware of how hot it gets when sharpening (grinding) or you will alter the temper. Carbide on the other hand is much more tolerant of heat. I see carbide inserts glowing red all the time and they don't seem to lose the temper. I wouldn't worry too much about getting it too hot. Also, I still encourage you to check out the website I mentioned in my 1st post which was removed. He shows how to prepare and use the graver. Don't know if you're cutting "face up" or "face down". I rarely cut with the very tip of the graver. Carbide is very brittle and the point (unless "dubbed") is extremely fragile. You might consider moving the lathe to where the microscope is. It's MUCH easier to cut when you can see what you're doing. I have a cheap digital scope installed over my lathe. You are right, if the graver is properly sharpened and the tool post height is correct, it should cut through brass easily and produce nice curls. Good job for a 1st attempt!
@home-dp6oh - thanks for all the great suggestions! I'm pretty sure I watched the video you recommended. (Comment was removed? strange!) Good suggestion on using the microscope for the lathe - I've been experimenting with ways to mount my old digital scope to the lathe for that very reason! Also, I'm going to be resharpening my cutters, since I know they should be cutting much better. Thanks for the moral support!
Hi, well done for a first attempt. Instead of putting a flat on you steel bar try and small piece of aluminum plate bent in-between the bar and the screw, the bend will give the screw something to bite into.
@@angelramos-2005 I don't know why they would not come through! Maybe try to paste your comments into a program like notepad, and then copy them out of there and try pasting into TH-cam. If there is something that the website sees that they think is malicious code, they will block the comment. Copying from notes or notepad will strip out any formatting and just leave the text. Let me know if that works! I look forward to seeing what you have to say and thank you for keeping on trying! 😀
Interesting results! Seems the cutter works and the machine runs well! Great start to you parts turning journey! See if you cant get your machine to take standard tips. That way you can get a small tool holder and replace tips instead of sharpening the tip. I like you dont trust that tool. It shattered too easily when sharpening. You could also make a tool nut where you grind a nut to fit that jig and hold the key steel perfectly. I've never cut with key steel but I with D2 tool steel that I shaped. I honestly dont know the make up of that steel and how many Vickers/Rockwell it currently is. Unless you can find a data sheet or speak to someone who knows it the best you can do it trial and error. Perhaps anneal it, shape it and then temper it and then try one that you only shape and temper. Happy experimenting!
It has been a very interesting journey! One of the viewers commented that the tip on my new Graver may be carbide, which would count for my difficulty sharpening it. I've just received a new sharpening jig and will be experimenting with the high speed steel next.
Actually Mike, that was faciniating to watch. I have managed to assemble quite a kit of watchmakers equipment. Not least of which is a watch parts cleaning machine to go with my ultra sonic cleaner. I even managed to get a microscope with an LCD screen. A lathe is next in my list as I have a full sized machine centre for full size work in my garage but its too big and clumsy to make watch parts on. It was interesting to see that watchmakers lathes use hand held tools like a wood working lathe rather than held in a tool holder and moved with lead screws on slides and cross slides. I guess once you get down to making screws and dealing with wheel arbor pivots, you also need to get down and personal with a loupe, or set the microscope to veiw what you are doing... I need to get a lathe as I need to rebush some grandfather clock pivots... Thanks for a great video set... 👍👍🙂
Hi Nalak, thanks for the nice words and for watching! I do plan to get a cross slide, which will hold the graver and let me advance the cut more precisely. That is a very common accessory for these watchmaking lathes. But for now I want to learn the nuance of hand-holding the graver. It is a very tactile experience!
Hi Mike, see my comments on your recent graver sharpening video. These are carbide gravers and need to be sharpened as such. The information you need is in my comments there. It’s HSS and other steel gravers where you need to worry about hardness and temper. They come pre treated. When sharpening these, take care not to heat to the point of altering the temper, they should never get too hot to touch when sharpening. Trying to reharden a steel graver that has had the temper drawn is futile. Remove the damaged section and resharpen fresh steel which hasn’t had the temper drawn out.
@mercuriall2810 - I didn't see comments from you on my other video. Did you post them from another account? I appreciate the tips you mention here. I'll be playing with the HSS today!
@@WatchWithMike Same account. I’ll go check if I can see them. Edit to add : I can still see my comment. In the comments section of the bench grinder sharpening video. I’ll repost it below this comment.
@@WatchWithMike This is a carbide graver, that's why they cost a lot more than the Vallorbe steel gravers. Once you can turn well enough not to chip them, carbide graves cut better and stay sharp a lot longer than steel gravers. I use carbide when turning steel and steel when turning brass or other softer metals. The Waller and other carbide gravers came in a kit which included a 50mm diamond sharpening wheel to fit a #50 collet to facilitate sharpening the graver on the lathe. You can buy these separately. Eternal Tools sells them. Stock code is DHW1. They also have a TH-cam video on the item's page that demonstrates sharpening and turning with carbide. Hope this helps!
@@WatchWithMike You’re welcome. Have you got any books that describe turning with a graver? The biggest thing you could improve in this video is the way you present the graver to the work. There are free PDF versions of some old out of copyright books online that whilst old are still very useful. One is called “The watchmaker’s lathe, it’s use and abuse” by W L Goodrich. The one part where it’s outdated is carbide gravers didn’t exist yet, otherwise it’s good information. Archie Perkins’ book is in my opinion the gold standard, but not inexpensive.
Whel i put knife smithing experance and logic to that matrer. You aneel the metal to work it and sharpen it and after you harden and then tamper it to.make it flexible. Because obviously a hardend metal is more difficult to woth on then a soft metal. Kind of the same reason why you tryed to work on brass insted of steel
That makes sense! I'm also trying to understand how many times a metal can go through hardening/softening cycles before it gets altered beyond usable. So much to learn! 😁
Great job Mike! How much magnification do you get with the visors? I only ask because i usually see people with their chin inches away from the lathe. Unless your camera angle threw me off, you seemed a good foot from it? Either way, it does look fun as you said.
Hi Jimmy, the visors are just clear plastic, but my glasses have bifocals that put me about 6 inches away from the subject. I was definitely closer than a foot from the work area. But now that I think of it, I may have been watching what I was doing on the big monitor that I had behind the lathe! it was definitely fun, but it was cleared to me I need to adjust my gravers and my technique. More antics to follow!😁
So lets take off the tail-stock. We won't be needing that. And where do we put the tail-stock? That's right, under our tail-stock cozy. Now back to the lathe. But wait, there is smudge. In fact this whole table could use a cleanup! Lets get out our cleaning supplies. First the rubber gloves......... 🙂
You are not going to beleve what i just found on ebay. Ok it's in need for resaurarion but wow I bought a Vacheron pocket watch for beleve it or not for 15 euros. My god thank you. A Vacheron Constantine from the 18 century when they were called Vacheron Geneve You want to try your hands on it?
Thanks, that is a nice offer! It's amazing to me how inexpensively you can purchase pocket watches. I just bought a small pocket watch that is 124 years old. If I'm successful with that, then I may consider other pocket watches in the future…
I really hope you did get a Vacheron Constantin. However the movements I’ve seen with Vacheron Geneve are not by Vacheron Constantin. If it’s Vacheron à Genève or JM Vacheron it could well be connected with Vacheron Constantin. I think you’ll be hard pressed to find a real Vacheron Constantin (or watch made by what became VC) labelled Vacheron Geneve on the movement or case. It’s a shame you can’t share an image of it here, I’d be interested to see it no matter what it is.
Thanks to everyone who's been following my watchmaking lathe journey, and providing much-appreciated advice and moral support! If you're entering the story in the middle, here's a chronological playlist of the videos in this 'Not a Tutorial' 😉 series: th-cam.com/video/CMPds8SO-68/w-d-xo.htmlsi=jg_7zMzd4L-cgnM6
Hi Mike, a little tip. You will find much stability when you put the material to be cut into a collet. A drill chuck is not really designed to take sideways force. Also with the workpiece that far from the headstock you get much more vibration! Hope this helps.
@@iansmeath8674 It does help, thank you! I've been using the collets and they are indeed more secure.
Hi again MIke. I might be able to help with the issues you have. First with the first turning. You set the tool post to height which is good. But you didn't allow for the thickness of the graver's tip and any angle you might be holding it at. As a result the cutting edge was mostly much too high and you had to try to compensate for it by angling the edge over to a much too strongly negative top rake. As a result it was just scrapping the metal rather than cutting it. Then when you used the tip which was more in line with the correct height and the geometry at the cut was closer to a neutral to only slightly negative top rake you got curls. What you need is to lower the tool rest in connection with how you use the tool so the upper surface of the edge is neutral or only around 5 to 7 degrees at most negative to the metal. Then you'll get curls galore without any risk of digging in. And when you go on to cutting steel this will be even more important in that you want to be at most perhaps within 2 degrees negative at most. And with steel even a couple of degrees of positive top rake isn't an issue. Steel wants to naturally push the cutter away so aim for flat/neutral top rake but a couple of degrees of positive isn't going to make you jump at all.
On that little jig you showed at the end. Because of how it holds the blank to the stones the edge you are considering dulling with a slight flat is also the cutting tip. So a hard NO on flattening that edge. Instead see if you can make up a mini V block that rests on the top of the tool's edge and fits within the arc of the hole. And I'd also reach into the V of the jig itself with a fret saw with metal cutting blade and make the "V" into a short tailed "Y so the edge of the tool does not rest against any slight radius in the corner. You're essentially doing what you see on commercial V blocks which have this same relief groove both for aiding with the final grinding and also with holding sharp edged stock that we don't want to ride up on any small corner radius.
Those blanks you have are HSS. They come fully hardened and ready for use. And they are extremely hard to damage with the sort of heating we do with our home shop. And that's good because the technique for hardening and tempering HSS is WELL outside the capabilities of most home shop setups. Do a web search for "how to heat treat hss" and get ready for some big numbers that will sit you back in your home shop seat :D Since you will be doing a lot of diamond angle grinding with your bench grinder you might want to consider making up a new tool rest that you can swap out. Instead of a flat table do a simple edge on "L bend for the rest so the actual rest surface is the edge and not the flat of the bent piece. And then on top of that file the edge at a 45 angle leaving only a 1/32 or so flat edge. That way when you are holding the blanks at a steep angle to get the angle needed the support is under that edge that is really close to the wheel. So less shock and kicking with the tool in your hand... And speaking of which.... The last thing you want with a short 1/8 square HSS blank that has sharp edges is to catch and rip through our delicate digits. So I strongly suggest you get a 6 to 8 inch long piece of 1/2" or bigger round bar and drill a hole in the end that fits the 1/8 square blank and in the side put another hole for a set screw. That way if anything nasty happens your hands just get a nasty bump and your sense of wrong a little jolt. But at least your fingers won't be leaking. The same sort of edge on rest like this would also be nice to use with the diamond face wheel if you decide to get one.
I smiled at your" Chuck Jacobs" because the little I've done with my own watchmaker's lathe used that same setup that I made using my big lathe. I've since gotten some additional WW collets and have the sizes i need to hold most of the imperial sizes from 1/8 to 1/4.
That's a BIG comment but I hope it helps out with your journey into micro machining. Me? I still need to dress the bed of mine a little so the head and tail stock ride on the ways correctly. Darn flakey nickel plating..... Cheers!
Oh, wow, so much goodness in your comments! Thank you for the suggestions to keep my digits from leaking! Nobody wants leaking digits! 😂 your suggestions on how to hold the graver are very good, so I'm going to re-read them when I am at the leave, and adjust my technique accordingly. Thank you so much, stay tuned and continued good luck taming the finish on your new lathe! Please keep us posted how it is going.
Hey Mike: With HSS gravers you need to be aware of how hot it gets when sharpening (grinding) or you will alter the temper. Carbide on the other hand is much more tolerant of heat. I see carbide inserts glowing red all the time and they don't seem to lose the temper. I wouldn't worry too much about getting it too hot. Also, I still encourage you to check out the website I mentioned in my 1st post which was removed. He shows how to prepare and use the graver. Don't know if you're cutting "face up" or "face down". I rarely cut with the very tip of the graver. Carbide is very brittle and the point (unless "dubbed") is extremely fragile. You might consider moving the lathe to where the microscope is. It's MUCH easier to cut when you can see what you're doing. I have a cheap digital scope installed over my lathe. You are right, if the graver is properly sharpened and the tool post height is correct, it should cut through brass easily and produce nice curls. Good job for a 1st attempt!
@home-dp6oh - thanks for all the great suggestions! I'm pretty sure I watched the video you recommended. (Comment was removed? strange!) Good suggestion on using the microscope for the lathe - I've been experimenting with ways to mount my old digital scope to the lathe for that very reason! Also, I'm going to be resharpening my cutters, since I know they should be cutting much better. Thanks for the moral support!
I use prescription safety glasses for work, they are so much better then having to wear a second set for glasses over your normal ones.
Prescription safety glasses are awesome. I wouldn't work without glasses, but I'll probably just use my regular glasses on this lathe moving forward.
You could try using a brass “shoe” to allow the screw of the honing fixture to spin while the shoe takes a bite
Thanks, that's a great idea! I like that better than having to file a flat into the bar stock.
Hi, well done for a first attempt. Instead of putting a flat on you steel bar try and small piece of aluminum plate bent in-between the bar and the screw, the bend will give the screw something to bite into.
That's a very good idea - much better than flattening the corner of the bar. Thanks!
Hi Mike.I tried 3 times to pass you the info on how I sharpen my gravers.NO LUCK.VERY FRUSTRATING.Thank you.
How are you sending?
@@WatchWithMike Regular comments
@@angelramos-2005 I don't know why they would not come through! Maybe try to paste your comments into a program like notepad, and then copy them out of there and try pasting into TH-cam. If there is something that the website sees that they think is malicious code, they will block the comment. Copying from notes or notepad will strip out any formatting and just leave the text. Let me know if that works! I look forward to seeing what you have to say and thank you for keeping on trying! 😀
Interesting results! Seems the cutter works and the machine runs well! Great start to you parts turning journey! See if you cant get your machine to take standard tips. That way you can get a small tool holder and replace tips instead of sharpening the tip. I like you dont trust that tool. It shattered too easily when sharpening. You could also make a tool nut where you grind a nut to fit that jig and hold the key steel perfectly. I've never cut with key steel but I with D2 tool steel that I shaped. I honestly dont know the make up of that steel and how many Vickers/Rockwell it currently is. Unless you can find a data sheet or speak to someone who knows it the best you can do it trial and error. Perhaps anneal it, shape it and then temper it and then try one that you only shape and temper. Happy experimenting!
It has been a very interesting journey! One of the viewers commented that the tip on my new Graver may be carbide, which would count for my difficulty sharpening it. I've just received a new sharpening jig and will be experimenting with the high speed steel next.
@@WatchWithMike That could be. Could also be tungsten. Looking forward to seeing what you come up with! Have a great week Mike!
Actually Mike, that was faciniating to watch. I have managed to assemble quite a kit of watchmakers equipment. Not least of which is a watch parts cleaning machine to go with my ultra sonic cleaner. I even managed to get a microscope with an LCD screen. A lathe is next in my list as I have a full sized machine centre for full size work in my garage but its too big and clumsy to make watch parts on.
It was interesting to see that watchmakers lathes use hand held tools like a wood working lathe rather than held in a tool holder and moved with lead screws on slides and cross slides. I guess once you get down to making screws and dealing with wheel arbor pivots, you also need to get down and personal with a loupe, or set the microscope to veiw what you are doing...
I need to get a lathe as I need to rebush some grandfather clock pivots...
Thanks for a great video set... 👍👍🙂
Hi Nalak, thanks for the nice words and for watching! I do plan to get a cross slide, which will hold the graver and let me advance the cut more precisely. That is a very common accessory for these watchmaking lathes. But for now I want to learn the nuance of hand-holding the graver. It is a very tactile experience!
Hi Mike, see my comments on your recent graver sharpening video. These are carbide gravers and need to be sharpened as such.
The information you need is in my comments there.
It’s HSS and other steel gravers where you need to worry about hardness and temper. They come pre treated. When sharpening these, take care not to heat to the point of altering the temper, they should never get too hot to touch when sharpening.
Trying to reharden a steel graver that has had the temper drawn is futile. Remove the damaged section and resharpen fresh steel which hasn’t had the temper drawn out.
@mercuriall2810 - I didn't see comments from you on my other video. Did you post them from another account? I appreciate the tips you mention here. I'll be playing with the HSS today!
@@WatchWithMike Same account. I’ll go check if I can see them.
Edit to add : I can still see my comment. In the comments section of the bench grinder sharpening video.
I’ll repost it below this comment.
@@WatchWithMike This is a carbide graver, that's why they cost a lot more than the Vallorbe steel gravers.
Once you can turn well enough not to chip them, carbide graves cut better and stay sharp a lot
longer than steel gravers.
I use carbide when turning steel and steel when turning brass or other softer metals.
The Waller and other carbide gravers came in a kit which included a 50mm diamond sharpening wheel to fit a #50 collet to facilitate sharpening
the graver on the lathe.
You can buy these separately.
Eternal Tools sells them. Stock code is DHW1.
They also have a TH-cam video on the item's page that demonstrates sharpening and turning with carbide.
Hope this helps!
@@mercuriall2810 Excellent! I don't think I saw this comment so thank you for reposting! 😀
@@WatchWithMike You’re welcome. Have you got any books that describe turning with a graver?
The biggest thing you could improve in this video is the way you present the graver to the work.
There are free PDF versions of some old out of copyright books online that whilst old are still very useful. One is called “The watchmaker’s lathe, it’s use and abuse” by W L Goodrich.
The one part where it’s outdated is carbide gravers didn’t exist yet, otherwise it’s good information.
Archie Perkins’ book is in my opinion the gold standard, but not inexpensive.
You made something…? 👍 I would frame it, hang it on the wall and put a brass plaque next to it!
I don't know whether to call it a widget or a thingamajig! 🤣
@@WatchWithMike as with a lot of modern art call it, “ Wordless”. 😀
Whel i put knife smithing experance and logic to that matrer. You aneel the metal to work it and sharpen it and after you harden and then tamper it to.make it flexible. Because obviously a hardend metal is more difficult to woth on then a soft metal. Kind of the same reason why you tryed to work on brass insted of steel
That makes sense! I'm also trying to understand how many times a metal can go through hardening/softening cycles before it gets altered beyond usable. So much to learn! 😁
@@WatchWithMike Yes it's a new world to conker.
Great job Mike! How much magnification do you get with the visors? I only ask because i usually see people with their chin inches away from the lathe. Unless your camera angle threw me off, you seemed a good foot from it? Either way, it does look fun as you said.
Hi Jimmy, the visors are just clear plastic, but my glasses have bifocals that put me about 6 inches away from the subject. I was definitely closer than a foot from the work area. But now that I think of it, I may have been watching what I was doing on the big monitor that I had behind the lathe! it was definitely fun, but it was cleared to me I need to adjust my gravers and my technique. More antics to follow!😁
@@WatchWithMike Antics! 😄
So lets take off the tail-stock. We won't be needing that. And where do we put the tail-stock? That's right, under our tail-stock cozy. Now back to the lathe. But wait, there is smudge. In fact this whole table could use a cleanup! Lets get out our cleaning supplies. First the rubber gloves.........
🙂
Wow, Charles… I need you to write a copy for my next video! 😄
You are not going to beleve what i just found on ebay.
Ok it's in need for resaurarion but wow
I bought a Vacheron pocket watch for beleve it or not for 15 euros. My god thank you. A Vacheron Constantine from the 18 century when they were called Vacheron Geneve
You want to try your hands on it?
Thanks, that is a nice offer! It's amazing to me how inexpensively you can purchase pocket watches. I just bought a small pocket watch that is 124 years old. If I'm successful with that, then I may consider other pocket watches in the future…
I really hope you did get a Vacheron Constantin. However the movements I’ve seen with Vacheron Geneve are not by Vacheron Constantin.
If it’s Vacheron à Genève or JM Vacheron it could well be connected with Vacheron Constantin.
I think you’ll be hard pressed to find a real Vacheron Constantin (or watch made by what became VC) labelled Vacheron Geneve on the movement or case.
It’s a shame you can’t share an image of it here, I’d be interested to see it no matter what it is.
🤠Hi Mike.Are you there?Thank you.
I'm listening!
🤘🤘
Yo, dude, you are posting car videos faster than I can watch them. Good stuff! Hey all, check out Coyote Car Guy's channel: @coyotecarguy2076