GW pulled a fast one on us and I'm not here for it However I am here to tell you that the Majorkill Christmas Merch drop is coming to a close - last chance here : www.majorkill.shop/
But this "retcon" is A: not even up to date, its like 5-6 years old. B: Was only published in one book. C: Have been overwritten again by the standard lore in every book since, including the codexes since 8'th ed. All in all: This was one author that clearly took liberties no other author at BL did, and GW have not even taken notice as per the 10'th ed Necron codex things are still the same as they were in 9'th.
I wonder how the necrontyr were able to fight chaos a BILLION years before they got fucked by the old ones, because a billion years time is enough to regenerate your strength.
Plus you can treat it just like history in that often its completely wrong, got forgotten over 1000's of years and someone made shit up for a degree. Bonus round is that most people in 40k are at best, a bit silly and mostly legally retarded you can figure its the current public historical revision by some high lord that doesn't want people knowing about them aliens
Aye!!! Precisely!!! I mean, as long as this 'billion-years-old' pseudo-retcon does not directly influence anything in the current setting (meaning the 41st millennium), then it could be easily disregarded.
Aye!!! I mean, as long as this pseudo-retcon does not directly influence anything in the current setting (meaning the 41st millennium), then it could be easily ignored.
My headcanon is that this series of events is the result of some Chaos sorcerer managing to ask Fateweaver what happened in the War in Heaven and going with what the lying head said to make himself feel better about being a Chaos worshipper.
I swear GW has an unhealthy obsession with Chaos, and this is coming from a Chaos fan. Feels like they'd make the Tyranids a Nurgle bio-weapon or make the Tau a race of Tzeenchian sleeper-agents if they thought they could get away with it.
to me chaos is just a stupid idea thats hard to follow or comprehend. It's nothing more than a reinvented hell. Most of it doesn't make sense even tho they tried really hard to make it make sense. And i know maaany that hate chaos too, their lore , their gods... it's just cheap and badly explained
What I like about the old lore is it kept the door open for more new chaos entities to come into being under the right circumstances. It also partially explained the current god-like status of the emperor along similar lines. But now that’s all up in smoke too..
I like that lore because I like to joke that the Space Wolves acutally end up causing a minor Chaos God to form that's a Massive Wolf that helps the Emperor
I mean, this "retcon" is 5 years old. And it wasn't mentioned since then - not in codexes or anything. So I don't think it was actually retconned. It was just mentioned in a single book (the part with allying with necrons) and one campaign book (with old ones vs chaos) - for me it's an idea of a single story writer but even GW ignores it lol. We'll see in the new Necron Codex that comes out soon.
Yeah Majorkill is just chasing the Reddit train recently and spreading misinformation. Numerous sources retcon this supposed retcon, including GW themselves.
@@adrienwatson2179 As they would and should. Maybe the should do a better job explaining and writing. Instead if leaving it open to interpretation to get $$$$$.
elves in warhammer fantasy: we have saved the world multiple times and have the best mages in the entire world, we could do even more to help the world if we had time to fix our own problems but we are always busy with the next crisis, our forest elf bretheren kill anything that comes within our forests and keep the balance within nature elves in 40k: how the fuck did a space marine captain just punch a shard of khaine to death
hahaha yeah cool, after he supposedly killed Alpharion he took (or somehow learned/absorbed) his disguising skills and now is chilling as a centurion. That would be a nice one xD
@@andreajankovic9929that’d be an interesting way to get omegon back into the setting as well motivated by the return of the man who killed his twin. Dorn reveals himself to say the Lion and is happy that another one of his brothers returns. He goes to embrace him (like him and Sanguineos in the end and the death) only to find a knife in his gut, with the Lion proclaiming that he is Omegon.
This takes away from so many races that were involved in the war in heaven The lore may be old, but it was really good and didn't need to be changed at all The necrons lore was so dang good This dying and broken race met these gods of creation but were denied help, and that is what pushed them over the edge Thei hatred going so far that they met and Made deals with these eldrich vampire gods just to crush the enemy who had denied them so much The eldar and Orks being these 2 races that were made to fight a gigantic war was so cool, too And one of the best parts I'd that the war in heaven was the very thing that corrupted the warp in the first place and made it the mess it is today Entire systems are getting destroyed on a daily basis, 100s or 1000s or races and creatures getting annihilated Each side making these weapons of war that could sunder reality itself All of that is what caused the warp to be what it is now in 40k Making the warp and chaos always having been like this takes away from so much of what it is and what makes it good I wouldn't even say it makes chaos more intimidating, either Idk why GW is trying to set them up as this overarching big bad when we kinda have the tyranids for that But i think everyone can agree to just ignore this Recton and say that the lore is still like how it was before, and no dumb changes were ever made
Yeah, that's more of a grimdark setting background than just "oh yeah it was always like this". Before this retcon, the universewas f###ed for a specific, *very cool* reason. Now, it's just f###ed.
It seems the consensus is to simply ignore this and force GW to retcon the retcon. The users of the IP have the real control and it's important to remind them of that sometimes.
there are people who to this day don't take end times as canon (despite even enjoying age of sigmar lore) and still focus on the old world so honestly yeah i can understand.
Their lore and product only exists so long as we the fans agree to purchase and consume it. Trust me. Once GW's bottom line starts hurting, they'll clean their shit up. This goes for any organization. The quickest way to hurt an entity and affect change is to threaten their wallet, or to go a step further, threaten their resources. Sad but true.
@@sovietunion7643 Literally me. I really like the worldbuilding potential of Age of Sigmar. I'm even about to paint some Saurus Warriors based on the new idea of them being the "Daemons of Order" to combat Chaos on a more supernatural front. I also like the Lizardmen from Fantasy and just treat the lore as if they're in another timeline where the End Times never happened and Fantasy didn't die.
i heard the reason aussie shipments take a long time is because the upside down planes have to do a maneuver with the normal planes to exchange the packages similar to how fighter jets fuel up mid flight
Fun fact, that's also why cargo planes exchanging products between Australia and the US aren't allowed to have toilets on them - the water circling in opposite directions could potentially reverse polarities, causing a catastrophic retcon of our world. Games Workshop didn't listen to this well-known fact in 2016, causing probably one of the dumbest retcons in all of 40K lore. And that's how babies are made
@@uzhirian6662 wait, my parents always said Aussies were distant relatives to the giant spiders there. That’s why you guys are not afraid of them, but also makes you able to walk on the ground(ceiling)
After consuming so much lore on the war in heaven from this channel I was able to explain it quite consistently to a friend who’s not good at knowing 40K lore. Then this rocks up 🤣 it doesn’t sit well with me compared to the original and I refuse to accept it 🤣
Well, 40k is a universe where the story you’re reading could be either the complete and uncut truth…or a bald faced lie concocted by the inquisition to make the Imperium look good. You decide what’s canon and what isn’t, because as far as anyone knows, we’re all just reading propaganda (This is how I cope with shit like… _C.S. Goto…_ )
@@TheCorrodedMan You are right. Even when one looks at our own history, people always have different views on how things went down. Not too mention that we tend to be taught what the current governing power wants to be true. When I got into 40K, I also wanted things to be established like this happened and it was final but overtime I started to realize that the idea of fabricated history is actually fun, not just in fiction but also real life too! Glad to meet someone with similar views
@@nedsteven4622 Nonsense. GW doesn't give two shits about anyone but the Imperium and Chaos in the setting. Imagine them framing the lore from the perspective of the other bookkeeping xenos races like the Eldar, Necrons, or Votann? That would require GW knowing or caring that they exist in the setting.
As a Slaanesh player I always understood the birth of Slaanesh was meant to be interpreted as when he awoke and became aware. Before that he was a slumbering concept waiting to take form and that all the chaos gods have always existed it was just they required some spark to awaken them as entities.
Careful there tho. The chaos gods aren't really gods and shouldn't be understood as such, as Dan Abnett indicates when he more properly describes them as accumulations of psychic energy.
@@felicianofrontado3134yes they are accumulations of energy, but with a purpose and contious. And as physics and the lore state, energ, can't be created, only transformed. The gods have a set amoubt of energy distributed inbetween them. If one gets more power, another one loses power, that's the great game. So it is true that in essence, they always existed, but the gods, the energy with personality if we want to call them that, were had a moment when they truly started beeing instead of just existing in theory
We've had a couple editions since 2018, both of which have some decent involvement from the Necrons and Aeldari, but I haven't heard of this retcon at all in recent publications with the exception of the weird Slaneeshi time shenanigans. Maybe it went so far under the radar that GW has forgotten about it (hopefully)
@@refugeehugsforfree4151 They can do that with Malice, yet apparently we have Vashtorr and now the Dark King as other major candidates for "5th chaos god", now there's technically 7 chaos gods existing since now The Warp also being "timeless" and not being byproduct of collective cesspool of sentient beings' psychic processes
@@ohamatchhams That's what I was thinking, is the mere mention of them being in existence or possibility of the existing mean they now existed since forever too? So confusing.
I also like the idea of the chaos gods being not just bad, like Khorne is also the god of honour. But this just kind of fucks that greyness of it feels and says "nah unkillable big bad"
This used to be a thing, but more and more I feel GW pushing the Imperium to be “the avenging sons, the great heroes” and chaos to be “yeah, we bad” - though GW will still tout “no, no, this is definitely Grim Dark and nobody is good”
I mean it makes sense. Chaos, the textbook definition, isn't inherently bad and many would argue it's the natural state of the universe. Freedom is chaos, yet any sensible person wouldn't associate freedom with evil. In WH40K, there are no good guys. The God-Emperor is the antithesis to Chaos not because he's good, but because he's the absolute pinnacle of Order. There should be more redeeming factors to Chaos that actually make it Chaos and not just Evil.
@@darko-man8549 they have to make a point to SAY ITS BAD because we get fuckheads who suck the emperors chode and dress up as nazis in warhammer tournaments
Isn't the gods of order pretty much more evil then chaos in the original chaos source books? There are gods of order that would prefer the galaxy to be dead and steril while the chaos gods want it alive and in an upheaval?
If they were going to explain how Slaanesh was around for so long yet being born 10k years ago they could have went with Slaanesh originally being a Eldar god, corrupted and eventually becoming "reborn" as Slaanesh due to the war in heaven and all the crap it caused in the warp. The Dark Eldar only cracked the egg open, releasing the now chaos god. Still has it issues, but i think its better than "oh yea she always existed, even before she actually did".
"oh yea she always existed, even before she actually did" I mean when talking about the warp, causality need not apply. The way I understand the warp would totally allow something like that to take place. I think the idea of a warp god being "born" is deeply idiotic and should be reconned.
The handwave explanation is "The warp is acausal, meaning everything exists throughout all time on the Materium side of things, but you don't usually see it affect events in the Materium in this way." It's still really, really dumb, and part of why the Ynnari trilogy more or less died on book 2.
Rogal Dorn's voice from TTS "Nope! THAT. IS. DUMB." But seriously, everything was wrapped up in a bow and had a beginning, middle and end. Now Games Workshop is changing stuff! WHY YOU DO THIS?! Maybe GW could make up a Slaanesh like Chaos God that died during the war in heaven. That way its successor, Slaanesh 2.0, can be born millions of years later. I don't know, I'm just making this up on the spot trying to fix what GW has broken. They'll probably patch the story over the next 10 years and make it a bit better. I assume they changed it to make chaos more of a threat and seem eternal and menacing. Sure, yeah, okay. How about you write some books where the named greater demons don't get their asses kicked by named heroes. Bring back more demon primarchs and make them the leaders of Chaos, not just Abadon. For the Warmaster of Chaos he isn't very threatening or memorable. Ask someone their favorite Chaos character. It'll most likely be a demon primarch or a named greater demon.
Nah clearly Archie from Fantasy/Sigmar is going to show and show Abbadon what a real Everchosen looks like. Jokes aside, would love to have more interesting chaos characters actually doing stuff rather than Abaddon just kinda existing.
these daemoncages could have easily worked as something the Eldar pantheon created as part of how they controlled the warp in their day against a nascent Chaos, and providing an explanation as to how everything went downhill so quickly when it did even a pre-fall Slaanesh can work since, in combination with anything that exists in the warp has always existed in the warp, since it makes the gods seem powerful to the point that they cast a shadow on Time itself. There was once a time before Slaanesh, but while She is in ascendance and until there is something on the scale of her own birth to cast her down, it is lost to us these two could have worked to make Chaos seem powerful in its own way and using their unique abilities to the maximum effect, but they went too far and fucked it by making them the undefeatable evil at the dawn of time and other bullshit, and that's just boring
there's millions of warp entities that are merely a shadow on the surface, but until given power for all intents they dont exist, which is how slaanesh always existed, wasn't until the eldar murder fucked her into awakening that he took form within the warp as what we know of her now
@@geryldpina7091 Yeah that doesn't seem to have changed because Old Ones fighting chaos happens before that along with making the Eldar to fight chaos. Though it feels weird to make eldar to fight chaos even if no eldar have fallen to it in lore but if the Old Ones were gonna make an anti-chaos race why not combine traits of orks and eldar so you got a fast reproducing warrior race of psychic might that can't be corrupted. Also how Slaanesh was able to claim all eldar souls kinda makes it out to be that the Old Ones did a shit job making the eldar if they ended up making a new Chaos god that nearly wiped them out
Implying that GW is eye of terror Games Workshop is like the core within Eternity Well that disfigured Kairos then scared Tzeentch shitless to never even get close ever again
Ok, so with the plot point about Slaanesh: Back when I started 40k, in 3rd ed the lore regarding Slaanesh wasn't that it was created by the Eldar, but that it was awoken by the Eldar. So perhaps to bring it in line with this new lore, Slaanesh was awake and fighting billions of years ago, fell asleep, and was then awoken by the Eldar once more. I dunno. This still sounds like a pointless lore change overall, but that was just what came to mind when I saw it.
Plot Twist spoiler from GW employee: There was never a real Chaos faction since the beginning, it was just the enemies that we made along the way. MIND BLOWN
I was never a big fan of the timelessness of chaos either. In my eyes, it seriously devalued how the materium is meant to affect the immaterium and the great game, i.e. plagues running rampant, Nurgle gains power. If the warp is timeless, then each god is at its weakest and strongest simultaneously and the great game has no meaning because its outcome, or more likely lack thereof, is already decided... As for the retcon, I really hope they don't continue with this plot... I always liked the idea that the warp was relatively tame until the psychic pain of the War in Heaven shifted the scales towards it being more demonic, which then shifted further due to the actions of the younger psychic races, eventually leading us to Chaos as we know it.
I don't know if Majorkill is conflating the terms 'non-linear' and 'timeless'. A non linear warp would mean occasionally having effect precede cause and all kinds of convoluted sillyness, as well as events in the warp not nessecerially corresponding to events in the materium. Whereas, as you say, timeless literally just means 'everything all at once' which doesn't fit with the different chaos gods vying for power.
Yeah the second any fantasy setting starts bringing in time travel backwards im done wasting time trying to make sense of it, simoly becayse it blatantly cant ever make sense hence why its not part of the mathmatical theory that deifnes our real world physics. If something could go back, its very presence invalidates the timeline its from and hence itself. It ends up being Lazy gimicky fiction writing every time that ruins otherwise possible fictions.
Yeah, Chaos really needs to be more connected to what's going on with the materium, otherwise what is even the point of them doing anything in the first place?
@@bencox3641 Exactly, those who advocate "The Warp is timeless therefore chaos gods are also timeless" thing won't just admit that it's terrible lore writing that generates a looot and I mean a looooooot of plot holes and just more vexing and baffling bad contradictions, making the settings gravita to be taken seriously out of point (and Warhammer 40K since post 4th or post 7th editions onwards are really trying to be taken seriously They really needs to make notes and make clear golden rules of lore on writing novels or else it's just turned into grey amorphous slops of dungs and pisses
@@ohamatchhams I remember someone saying that 40k needs a setting bible and yeah, when you have more people working on a single IP than a regular TV show you really need something like that. And a lot of people use "it's satire" to defend bad writing from 40k, even though it's supposed to be taken more or less seriously since 4th edition.
Yeah I've never been a big fan of the 'everything boils down to Chaos' thing. For example, the Badab War was super interesting at first and the 'bad guys' had a point, at first, but they won't let mankind fight itself without one side aligning itself to eldritch space gods. Ever. So they go all on in Chaos for no reason like everyone else.
I like the Cadian Honour book because it’s essentially people wanting to crusade for the emperor but none of them know they are aligning themselves with chaos. The idea that people get tainted without knowing because they think they are the good ones fighting for the emperor, but being manipulated by some smart cultists is a really underused idea.
@@collecter343yeah I'm fine with badab as it shows how the imperium feeds chaos by design and the red corsairs are awesome Things didn't get too chaotic until the literal end
40k desperately needs a non-imperial/non-chas humaan faction. The options for humaan faactions aare currently: Space 1984 and a bunch of mitsted goths who cant get a win.
@@PodreyJenkin138 Maybe! I could be looking at it the wrong way but I think an ongoing 'just secession' free of chaotic taint would be awesome. For humanity it always boils down to either you're Imperium or you're Chaos at the end of the day and I wish they could have one notable example where that doesn't happen.
The slaanesh thing was always a thing though, but yeah, its probably for the best to just collectively ignore the retcon in favor of established canon until it goes away.
If it becomes real thing then we know there will never be 5th chaos god because there is none right now. If warp is timeless, then it should already contain every single incarnation of chaos gods that will ever be created.
@@Metalija1315Tbf, I get his point, this means that Chaos Gods always and already exist, so new Gods born or theory of Emperor in Chaos means that he always that powerful, since existing in Chaos means he always is.
@@novelreader1834 And any plotline that involves birth of new chaos god is now destined to failure because otherwise they would be that god at this moment already in timeless warp.
If their main goal was to make the daemon cages a plot point, they could have easily just set that near the end or even after the War in Heaven, kind of where the Enslavers came in too. It would make sense for the Necrons to do all their Blackstone stuff then, at the height of their power, then go to sleep thinking they've contained the problem.
the war in heaven is both the coolest and one of the most convoluted things i’ve ever read/heard about in 40k. retcons like this make it a clusterfuck to explain to newer fans
Khorne being an honorable god was always more of a fantasy thing rather than his 40k version. And even then it doesn't make sense when one of his slogans is that he doesn't care where the blood flows from. Khorne has always been a little derpy honestly lol...
@@damianwomack4668except that’s not derpy at all. Khorne is the martial god. Nurgle is the god of life. Tzeentch is the god of hope. Slannesh is the god of passion and pride. They’re two sides of the same coin. That’s kind of the point.
@alexanderstrickland9036 You completely missed the point of what I was trying to point out bro. Khorne (in 40K at least) literally doesn't seem to care about where blood flows from, as I stated. Which goes against the entire honorable and martial aspect that some people attribute to him. Maybe Fantasy Khorne doesn't want you to kill babies, old people, or others who can't fight back, but Khorne in 40k seems perfectly happy with any kind of blood sacrifice. Whether that is just a symptom of 40k trying to be as grimdark as possible, idk. But it's just a funny contradiction with his character and I honestly wonder whether GW or BL even care about how he used to be considered some entity that only rewarded sacrifice of high-tier opponents. The only thing that seems to remain of that aspect of Khorne is that he still doesn't like pansy sorcery
@@damianwomack4668 it really doesn’t clash, the chaos gods are a reflection of the warp and the warp is a reflection of sapient life(ish) in their setting. Fantasy’s setting is less screwed over than 40k’s is, so Khorne reflects more of that martial honor/spirit in fantasy than in 40k - because the Imperium on average cares way less about martial honor and the like than the Empire does, and places way less significance on individual human life - and that’s not mentioning the rest of the average 40k Imperial’s screwed up morality, or the mess that is the rest of the galaxy. This isn’t at all a contradiction or a lore mistake, there are other places to find those; just incorrect equivalency of the settings.
4:36 I sighed to myself at the exact same time as Majorkill sighed saying Necrontyr... Must be all you need to hear before losing the last shred of good lore hope 😂
I thought that the Eldar actually imprisoned demons on various worlds and that was after the War in Heaven. The old lore either states or heavily implies that the Eldar Pantheon effectively policed the warp. The demon cages which the Eldar could have built over 10s of millions of years could have been part of actual reason the Warp was so sedate for most of Human history. Even normie humans are considered acceptable demon food as opposed to Tau. This means that if the warp was as fucked up during the earlier ages of man I really doubt we would have bothered with warp travel. It would have been sublight sleeper ships until a non-warp FTL was figured out, like was what stored in the AI of the Esperanza. If you can use black holes as weapons you can probably create wormholes as well. Wormholes AFAIK are a thing in 40k. I agree that the pantheon existing for all time as far as the Materium is concerned is pretty dumb. If I were GW the calming of the warp for 60ish million years would have been the a combination of Necron and Eldar efforts for differing reasons. The calmed part would only be the upper layers so humans and others could use warp drive and not die immediately. While the pantheon is eternal as far as the warp is concerned they were effectively kicked out of the warp shallows. This would be in line with various in book mentions of "Don't go too deep into the warp" as that is where the eternally bad stuff lives. The slumber of the Necrons and the Fall of the Eldar opened up the kiddie pool again. Edit: Grammar/typos
Interestingly, These retcons bring the chaos gods more in line with Warhamner Fantasy where Chaos was eternal, fought the old ones , and are the ultimate force that destroy the world.
Fantasy Chaos didn't claim that Chaos was eternal, just that it was older than any of the civilisations on the world. It left open the possibility that Chaos had an origin, just that none of the protagonists had any idea what it was. 40K, on the other hand, ultimately encompasses the entire history of sapient life in the Milky Way galaxy and is our own future according to the premise of the setting, which means that 1) they have to commit to whether it has an origin or is eternal (and it's hard to claim the latter given that the universe isn't and Chaos needs sapient life to draw power from) and 2) there needs to be some explanation why the start of the third millennium is apparently a relatively safe environment for at least one pre-FTL civilisation. (Chaos being relatively quiet, and the Aeldari being in charge and able to keep races like the greenskins in check, explains the second, since the Aeldari are one of the few factions that isn't in the habit of wiping out sapient species for the crime of living on a world suitable for habitation.)
The Chaos gods in Fantasy and 40k are one and the same. Chaos is a multiversal force of destruction that's responsible for a universal cycle of death and rebirth across all of reality. This has been canon for literally decades now.
See if I was going to fix this lore what I would do is that when Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle were born during the war in heaven I'd have them be rampaging feeding off all the war and psychic energy being flung around by the Old Ones and other races. The Old Ones were still fighting the C'tan and Necrons so didn't have time to properly deal with the daemons so they'd just trap armies of them on planets with the mindset of dealing with them later. Then closer to the end of the war some rampaging C'tan release them by destroying the daemon cage planets. Maybe this could be one of the events that convinces the Silent king to turn on the C'tan
Can even have the slanneshi demons being in the cages make sense, as due to there being an ungodly number of demons trapped there, the barriers between real space and the warp would be thin, and slanneshi demons could have popped through when the eye of terror was formed. Doubt the old ones would have really cared if anything got into the cages, so long as nothing could ever get out.
The BL author Aaron Dembski-Bowden is probably really happy with this new setting change (if it truly is the official thing from now on), as the guy really loves his Chaos stuff.
GW remembered about that one Ctan possibly sitting outside the galaxy of the 40k setting in its sphere within a sphere prison, possibly controlling the Tyranids in the process, and decided "Naw. Instead of having an interesting and potentially bloody storyline that doesn't involve reality tumors" they instead made the reality tumors more relevlant lmao
My headcannon for those cages is that they were actually made by the Kabal(a council of all kinds of super xenos including the Slann the direct descendants of the old ones) as a way to combat chaos. Don’t worry Major I still consider your video on the war in heaven Canon
SPOILERS FOR THE END AND THE DEATH PART II Reading that book at the start I did wonder if the Kabal was LITERALLY just a Dark Eldar faction meddling with things. A Dark Eldar emmisary turns up and says to the rest of the Eldar something along the lines of "Yeah we had a crack at fixing this whole Imperium/Horus/Chaos thing, hasn't worked so well" least that was my reading.
@@fromthedumpstertothegrave3689 in fairness I did confuse the Kabal for a Dark Eldar cabal at first as well so don’t worry your not the only one who got things mixed up
There's also that civilization that new about chaos but the imperium ended up destroying, they easily could have made it so those guys were the ones that made the cages.
@lachlanevans5013 Minor point, but it's "The Cabal" with a C. A "Kabal" is a Dark Eldar subfaction, "The Cabal" is the conspiracy of various xenos, psykers, xenos psykers, etc.
@@Nyghtking Nice theory but I don't see it. The *name draws a blank* were basically able to deal with chaos by just being super chill (oversimplification). Though in fairness they had the athame that erebus nicked and started the whole heresey process off with just lying in a museeum. So for a species that has mastered avoiding chaos' influence they wern't too smart. Though I think the implication was more 'chaos is something we beat so long ago but we keep the odd reminder about of how bad it was to stop people forgetting' Point was, their way of beating chaos seemed waaay more passive and chill than the idea of actively trapping daemons.
Noice!! 40k finally gets the modern story telling reatment of "yes, I (insert unknown writer without experience and training) have this unquestionably great, basically Hugo-awards worthy idea to fill an only by me percieved hole in the lore. And in my head it all comes together so great - what do you mean there is already a lot of lore which funtions nicely and that there is no plot hole where I am the only one to think one to be?!? No, it is not a Galileo fallacy and the existing lore - wait, there is further existing lore that build up logiacally on the one I try to fix…? What hack wrote that junk?!? - would absolutely not become nonsentical because of my third-rate fanfiction! I promise on my lib-arts degree. In my head it totally works and my friends all tell me that I am a good writer, just trust me bro!"
I remember a while back one of the authors made a comment about how “everything is and isn’t cannon”. Like a simple one to look at is compare the faction maps from the Codexes and compare them. They are vastly different
Pretty sure the argument for Slaanesh is that the Warp gods are higher dimensional beings not bound by things like time. Similar to how the Emperor was able to talk to a Custodies who went back in time as a child and was aware of who he was.
5:47 So this is the Void Dragon, or at least the shard of it, Big E had fought and beaten as St. George the Dragonslayer on medieval Terra before sealing it away on Mars.
A theory on the situation. Maybe the version of "Chaos" the Old Ones and their contemporaries dealt with was different than the current iterations? Since the Warp Gods are basically sapient collections of energy, maybe they were bleeding off power from even older versions, that eventually got subsumed/rebooted into the current entities we know eons later.
Slaanesh having existed since the dawn of time thanks to the warp being timeless has always been a thing. When I began playing WH40K in the late 90s it was already the case in lore.
Yes and no, the way that bit of lore is written it’s more said as though as far as the other gods are concerned, she has always existed, that doesn’t mean she actually had tho. That’s why a lot of people adhere to the theory that the chaos gods always existed as formless concentrated emotions and such, and their births are just them gaining actual sentience and self-control. So Slaanesh may have always existed as pure emotions before hand, but did not become Slaanesh until the Eldar caused her birth
@@darthrevan4485 no, the chaos demon codex was very specific. This thing about Slaanesh having always existed « and yet never existed at all » is specifically and explicitly tied to the way time flows in the Warp, how it’s non-linear. Because of that demons can exist before their birth and after their death. And that’s not the first time that time being non linear in the warp and allowing for time travel has been mentioned in the lore.
@@TheLokiel Then if The Warp have always been existed, should've Emperor have always been existed? Then should've eldar pantheon never being devoured by Slaanesh since they hold the dominions over The Warp for hundreds of millions of years? Shouldn't the chaos gods fear Eternity Well or anything of Deep Warp? Alongside other fucktons of questions of numerous plot holes, I'm not even starting about the souls of Primarchs which supposed to be lesser warp gods and shouldn't even be permanently killed by Emperor since Warp's timelessness implies every being also unaffected by changes whatsoever, yet we still seeing clear permanent changes anyway Just because it's been established, doesn't mean they're good or above writing, it's just terrible lore and just poke out the bad writing to make the settings deserves to not be taken seriously
@@ohamatchhams I never said it was good lore, I said it was not a retcon. Furthermore, it is coherent with various mentions of the warp making people time travel and it’s one of the lore explanation for the demons and psykers ability to predict the future. Lastly, while I said timeless, it’s not exactly true: what the lore actually said is that time in the warp is non linear. It can speed up or slow down in certain areas, cause can follow consequence, … It’s not always the case but lorewise Slaanesh has always been one of those cases.
@@TheLokiel I mean, time is relative to the individual perceiving it. Even if within the realm of chaos Slaanesh is perceived to have always existed, which is possible due to the warp’s lack of laws regarding time or really anything, the materium does still have strict laws on the flow of time, and is why Slaanesh wasn’t devouring the souls of the Eldar before her birth. Within the immaterium, maybe she has always existed, but here in the materium, she hasn’t and has no influence on events before her birth. Or at least that’s how it should be if GW could stick to a plot line for 5 minutes.
I could believe that as the war in heaven went on the wrap became more effect and demon incursions started to increase. After C'tan were shattered demon attacks increased and aldari and necrons had to put aside differences and work together. Ive actually heard a theory that the old ones created the aldari gods to protect them from Chaos. Just an idea. GW really needs to think this through and release a definite version of the war in heaven.
I choose to believe that the Ruinous Powers were ALL Slumbering within the Warp until the "Birth of Slannesh" woke the 4 of them up as collectively they inhaled the warp storms of Old Night, but Slumbering doesn't mean non-existent just unaware of themselves.
I think this is a classic case of someone in gw who was recently hired who knows just the bare minimum of the story and was given the power to write the lore, they told him, "chaos cages" And cart blanc to skrew around with the lore to make a pile of bull honky
I think it's a bit like Fire Warrior. The book shows a Tau corrupted by Khorne, but then later they show chaos as having no influence over them. And boom, latest lore, possible farsight corruption? I think they have a baseline that they follow, but they throw some shit in the fan (or at the fans) to see what sticks.
While the daemon cages are a cool plot point I feel like they didn't need the retcon to introduce them. Like just say the peak eldar made them after daemons became a thing. Makes the eldar more relevant if a daemon cage shows up in the current setting.
Exactly. It's completely pointless. There were examples of greater daemons and their armies being sealed away in certain planets for going on 20 years now. They didn't need to add this stupid shit.
@@dark7elementin the first Dawn of war, the demon on Tatarus was imprisoned by the eldar before the event of the game. This would support making the eldar responsible for the demon cage. They didn’t need to retcon anything.
What's really interesting is that in The End And The Death vol2 Loken defeats Samus by simply not fearing him anymore. I think that was a retcon also from how daemons operate. If thats the case, Chaos can be wiped out easily...
its also possible that the old ones simply COULDN'T give the necrontyr immortality as the necrons souls were so small. same situation as the tau in the modern setting who live very short lives as their souls are small and no amount of magic tech can solve that problem of small souls meaning short lives. there is a genuine possibility that the old ones told the necrons this that they couldn't help their problem and the necrons didn't believe them and lashed out
I agree there were already great ways to create steaks and add daemon cages as a plot point and instead GW decided to fuck over every good bit of lore about the war in heaven that still remains
It's kinda like Valrak was talking about Abby looking for shards of the Anathame. There's gonna be a load of warp farkery going on now if he completes his quest.
It's worth noting The War in Heaven never originally featured the Necrons, or the C'tan, or the Old Ones, that was a big retcon in it's own right. The War in Heaven was originally more an Eldar related event involving the Eldar Deities. As for the Chaos Gods being around during the War In Heaven, Time in the Warp has no meaning, things exist for eons within it that have yet to be born, yet have always been or might never be. It's why i like the idea that the Emperor didn't get his power boost from the Chaos Gods, but from his own future self ensuring it's own creation.
2:50 Chaos was born from the War in Heaven between the Old Ones & their creations, the Aeldari and Krorks, and the Necrontyr and the C'tan that made the Horus Heresy barely a blip on the radar. And said conflict had altered the Realm of Souls into the Warp where the three older Chaos Gods: Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle reside.
That TTS "universal history" retelling back in 2015 that you typed is somehow way tidier and doesn't constantly breaking lore informations embarrassingly compared to this retcon tbh
The only good bit is the idea of the Demon Prisons, but they could've brought that in to the setting in literally any other way. Like making it a Necron made series of structures similar to the Black Pylons, that instead of straight deleting warp entities from their effective range, trapped them there for study or something
Yeah, that's what should've been implemented, it's also could adding layers to the old lore of what the Eldar doing at their heights asides from revelling in decadence, so it's not ended up wasteful, they could even make the daemons non-Slaaneshi until Slaanesh awakens and turns majority of the daemons in the cages to be Slaanesh-corrupted types of daemons later on after Slaanesh's birth-scream or something like that
What could have happened: Chaos has always been part of the warp, but through the efforts of the Old Ones, Daemons were locked up in prisons in real space in order to weaken the chaos gods and keep the warp mostly peaceful. The War in Heaven caused the destruction of the Daemon prison worlds, giving power back to the chaos gods, who then waited for the right time to strike. Slaanesh has always been around, however a majority of its Daemons were locked up by the Old Ones, causing Slaanesh to resent them and their creations. After feeding on the Eldars' depravity long enough, Slaanesh finally attacked them and their gods in what appeared to be their birth.
Chaos came from negative emotions. Unless there have been a constant interplanetary war, there won't be enough negative emotions for the denizens of the warp to become daemons and the warp to become a hellhole. The Necrontyr can maybe turn a region of the warp into a hellhole with their constant infighting but turning the warp itself into a hellhole is a large undertaking.
@ThaDude exactly, which is how they already exist. And why they would wait to attack instead of starting or joining a war. They're weak in the beginning and most of the warp is peaceful, so the Old Ones imprison pieces of the Chaos gods to prevent chaos from spreading throughout the warp, and giving them more power.
This is a great idea. They existed but were weak af compared to now and thus were at least defeatable back then. It also removes the need for the eldar to have already existed and some bullshit alliance with the necrontyr existing for no reason.
@@arrowstrike1174 How can you imprison pieces of entities that are absent? The chaos gods are not yet born. There were only denizens of the warp and the warp was relatively peaceful. The main principle and concept of the warp is turned upside down by making them present at the early era of the galaxy. The warp is timeless but its state changed from peaceful to a hellhole after the War in Heaven. If the chaos gods were to be present before the War in Heaven, they would be specks of negative emotion during that time and can't be distinguished from the other denizens of the warp.
@ThaDude Three of the four Chaos gods have always existed. This just retcons Slaanesh into existence at the same time. Just because they were too weak to do anything before doesn't mean they didn't exist.
If we take the idea of the WIH being a thing of legend that barely anyone alive in the 41st millennium knows exactly what happened in, this could work with the previous lore, but its a big maybe/ This story could be the set up for some daemon oracle stuff, a grand deception by chaos to trick people into thinking they really are unbeatable, and resistance is futile. Maybe it could be continued a deception told by Vashtorr to build himself up as this big player in the warp? Or some fragmented memory of a c'tan shard? there's possibilities, but they'd have to be careful writing a plot around a great deception/retcon-that-isn't-a-retcon, if that's the route they want to take
GW has opened the unholy Retconomicon and summoned forth a dark power of wanton narrative decimation that puts Doctor Who to shame. Imma just 🙉and pretend that this whole lore change is the in-universe result of a Mechanicus scribe spilling ink on the page after an especially violent toasterfuck session
The idea of whole planets traveling armies of Daemons is really cool. But it could be done by any advanced alien empire. It could be the Eldar, or any of the factions the Emperor and Horus exterminated. Or just someone new, or some wild card like the Hrud. Also could’ve been the Old Ones without changing the lore. Just make it to that these planets were giant grease traps or roach motels constructed during the War in Heaven, when the warp started getting too freaky.
The war in heaven is supposed to have lasted for a really long time right? So it makes sense that there would have been a lot more twists and turns in it than what we are aware of, and probably more factions too. I could easily see Chaos being created by the war and also being a part of it, since the war simply lasted long enough for both of those things to happen.
The retcon is now making The Old Ones existing billions of years before War in Heaven and Chaos being existing since day 1 (despite The Warp feeds on the limitations of sentient beings' psychic powers, so it's not even ALL psychic beings) Games Workshop simply inflates and exaggerates The Warp and Chaos so much that it's contradicts most of their established lore and Cosmology of Warhammer 40K universe both of the Immaterium/The Warp and Materium/Realspace, this is also to considered that C'tan race at their peak should've even rival if not outright more powerful than chaos gods, on top of other questions about how there's also linear struggles for Malice, Vashtorr and now recently The Dark King to be candidate(s) for chaos gods and even the 4 existing chaos gods don't trread lightly on them since each already have their own motifs and works more into Realspace and directly bridging Materium and Immaterium so they should've been way more tangible and able to grow more powerful than existing 4 chaos gods that only dwells in each otheir realms of chaos, so are Malice, Vashtorr and The Dark King makes chaos gods to be always 7 in total or no? Also shouldn't Eldar Pantheon able to elude chaos gods since time and space being meaningless too? Or how Emperor and Tyrannids' Hivemind's "Shadow in The Warp" always existing, even Eldar Harlequinn witnessing Enthroned Emperor's psychic presence and changes her mind to now believe that Emperor of Mankind is even bigger and more horrifying than Slaanesh too (in that book where Harlequinn somehow able to kill a few Custodians) Now the retcon breaks the established lore facts so much that no need for mental gymnastics, it's just bad writing, Chaos gods should've have their own origin and ending or else it's just stupid fatalism in spite of how Warhammer 40K books views Prophecies as a fickle thing, then even powerful warp entties including Warp gods (chaos-based or Order-based ones) should've been tangible and limited albeit in mass Psychic forms instead of these "always existed" nonsense that Kairos Fateweaver's lying side would tell to a chaos worshipper just to sleep well about their beliefs being justified by exaggerative lies, instead of LORE FACTS
I feel like if they're gonna make the gods timeless they should still be limited what they can do at a particular time because of the state of the galaxy. Like Slaneesh could exist before the Fall but she couldn't do anything. However if she summons demons a bil years ago then that doesn't work.
The annoying thing about this retcon is that it actually creates more consistency than it breaks. The timeless warp is the reason a ship can appear at its destination before it departs
If that's the thing, then should've been about The Warp have limits but can breaks convention with the amout of the surging tide of psychic elements to break into Immaterium, as The Warp supposeldy made up of Psychic energy, it has origin point from beginning ot end, or else anything and I mean ANYTHING (like making up warp gods that's more powerful than either Emperor, chaos gods, Gork and Mork, surviving eldar gods, etc to appear and doing something greater in The Warp or making legions of post-humans that's more powerful than any warp gods) can happen timelessness of The Warp means that there's no action and reaction to concept of The Warp in Warhammer 40K and therefore lack of consequences in writing, it's terrible lore additions and emphasizing fatalism of lore and worldbuilding into absurd narrative degrees, at this point any child can form up something better than whatever the hell Games Workshop are concocting off
GW seems to truly not understand that the factions, Necrons, Humanity, Eldar and yes, even the Old Ones, need the existence of a time that I shall call "Not-shit" to have the chance to grow and become powerhouses that can influence the setting. Otherwise it raises the question, 'how can any faction grow and not just be immediately corrupted by Chaos'? that is the purpose of the 'not-shit' period, for all the factions to appear and grow with little threat and no questions to be asked. The also don't seem to understand the kind of Fantasy 40K is, the same kid of fantasy LOtR is, the "The world used to be more fantastical and magical but because of our own Hubris magic is dying and that's terrible." kind of fantasy, but now...nope everything just sucked forever from the dawn of time, sucks to suck, I guess?
Maybe it's more that the essence and vices that created slannesh actually allowed lower demons of hers to exist before she was given full sentience with a concentrated form.
Time also moves differently in the warp compared to the material universe. So even though Slaanesh was birthed by the fall of the Eldar race, its also possible for Slaanesh to have been around even before that because of how unimaginably different time works in the warp.
Yeah, once Slaanesh was created in about 30k, Slaanesh had always existed in the warp. Pretty sure that's always been the line - not even a retcon either - since there's been a few references to The Great Game and at one point Tzeentch even allowed itself to be beaten and reformed cos it was winning against the other three.
GW pulled a fast one on us and I'm not here for it
However I am here to tell you that the Majorkill Christmas Merch drop is coming to a close - last chance here : www.majorkill.shop/
But this "retcon" is A: not even up to date, its like 5-6 years old. B: Was only published in one book. C: Have been overwritten again by the standard lore in every book since, including the codexes since 8'th ed.
All in all: This was one author that clearly took liberties no other author at BL did, and GW have not even taken notice as per the 10'th ed Necron codex things are still the same as they were in 9'th.
I’m just gonna pretend this retcon doesn’t even exist
Thank god it's a one off mention and therefore D canon at best.
I wonder how the necrontyr were able to fight chaos a BILLION years before they got fucked by the old ones, because a billion years time is enough to regenerate your strength.
@@snaplordmeep6748 cant reply to original comments anymore wtf is going on with youtube.
Games Workshop: *makes retcon no one asked for*
Everyone: "We'll ignore that."
Plus you can treat it just like history in that often its completely wrong, got forgotten over 1000's of years and someone made shit up for a degree.
Bonus round is that most people in 40k are at best, a bit silly and mostly legally retarded you can figure its the current public historical revision by some high lord that doesn't want people knowing about them aliens
Literally
Basically like much of the star wars fan base. Legends is the real canon now
Aye!!!
Precisely!!!
I mean, as long as this 'billion-years-old' pseudo-retcon does not directly influence anything in the current setting (meaning the 41st millennium), then it could be easily disregarded.
Yes
As a Necron player, I just pretend this never happened
smart
Aye!!!
I mean, as long as this pseudo-retcon does not directly influence anything in the current setting (meaning the 41st millennium), then it could be easily ignored.
Bro same. GW can‘t influence how i enjoy WH40K. Thats right GW-Simps and GW- Neckbeards, i don’t follow your rules. What are gonna do about it?
Pretty sure ignoring whatever lower species say is on-character for a Necron apologist 😂
@@tkraid2575 These dirty biologicals will not influence our history!
My headcanon is that this series of events is the result of some Chaos sorcerer managing to ask Fateweaver what happened in the War in Heaven and going with what the lying head said to make himself feel better about being a Chaos worshipper.
Bazinga
Wait a second, how'd he know which was the lying head?
@@Ray-yv7knhe just listen to both and choose what make him happy
@@kacperkonieczny7333this was translated by Google into “They are surrounded”
I fear for my life.
I swear GW has an unhealthy obsession with Chaos, and this is coming from a Chaos fan. Feels like they'd make the Tyranids a Nurgle bio-weapon or make the Tau a race of Tzeenchian sleeper-agents if they thought they could get away with it.
Okay but the Tau Ethereals being Tzeentchian agents is badass.
And Eldar were made by slaanesh so they can birth her
They are setting up farsight to become a khorne deamon prince...
@@magumble6107 I would literally drop WH right then and there if they did that.
to me chaos is just a stupid idea thats hard to follow or comprehend. It's nothing more than a reinvented hell. Most of it doesn't make sense even tho they tried really hard to make it make sense.
And i know maaany that hate chaos too, their lore , their gods... it's just cheap and badly explained
What I like about the old lore is it kept the door open for more new chaos entities to come into being under the right circumstances. It also partially explained the current god-like status of the emperor along similar lines. But now that’s all up in smoke too..
I like that lore because I like to joke that the Space Wolves acutally end up causing a minor Chaos God to form that's a Massive Wolf that helps the Emperor
I mean, this "retcon" is 5 years old. And it wasn't mentioned since then - not in codexes or anything.
So I don't think it was actually retconned. It was just mentioned in a single book (the part with allying with necrons) and one campaign book (with old ones vs chaos) - for me it's an idea of a single story writer but even GW ignores it lol.
We'll see in the new Necron Codex that comes out soon.
Yeah Majorkill is just chasing the Reddit train recently and spreading misinformation. Numerous sources retcon this supposed retcon, including GW themselves.
@@alexissandoval1284Exactly. its not even a Retcon.
GW Even says a lot of lore is a lie pr misinterpreted.
@@adrienwatson2179 As they would and should. Maybe the should do a better job explaining and writing. Instead if leaving it open to interpretation to get $$$$$.
Would you be able to point me in the direction of these two books?
@@clem8737 Angel's Blade book and Rise of the Ynnari: Wildrider
It kinda makes sense GW retconned it, because Eldar winning anything is apparently just really unbelievable for GW writers.
elves are panzies... one of the biggest eldar characters (yvraine) gets shipped to gurly man himself and barely anyone mentions vect or eldrad.
Eldar aka Space Elves just like to chill and have space tea parties LOL
@@mr.mammuthusafricanavus8299 Yeah…but they should probably look into that god of addiction that has claimed over all their souls as a species.
elves in warhammer fantasy: we have saved the world multiple times and have the best mages in the entire world, we could do even more to help the world if we had time to fix our own problems but we are always busy with the next crisis, our forest elf bretheren kill anything that comes within our forests and keep the balance within nature
elves in 40k: how the fuck did a space marine captain just punch a shard of khaine to death
@@stingerjohnny9951 Eldar: Nothing like a good cup of chai and a biscuit to help figure that one out :P
Does this mean that rogal dorn is in a centurion suit secretly roaming around the imperial palace?
Yes!
hahaha yeah cool, after he supposedly killed Alpharion he took (or somehow learned/absorbed) his disguising skills and now is chilling as a centurion. That would be a nice one xD
The Emperors teddy
Vulkan is simply hiding in a very dark corner waiting for a dramatic entrance
@@andreajankovic9929that’d be an interesting way to get omegon back into the setting as well motivated by the return of the man who killed his twin.
Dorn reveals himself to say the Lion and is happy that another one of his brothers returns. He goes to embrace him (like him and Sanguineos in the end and the death) only to find a knife in his gut, with the Lion proclaiming that he is Omegon.
This takes away from so many races that were involved in the war in heaven
The lore may be old, but it was really good and didn't need to be changed at all
The necrons lore was so dang good
This dying and broken race met these gods of creation but were denied help, and that is what pushed them over the edge
Thei hatred going so far that they met and Made deals with these eldrich vampire gods just to crush the enemy who had denied them so much
The eldar and Orks being these 2 races that were made to fight a gigantic war was so cool, too
And one of the best parts
I'd that the war in heaven was the very thing that corrupted the warp in the first place and made it the mess it is today
Entire systems are getting destroyed on a daily basis, 100s or 1000s or races and creatures getting annihilated
Each side making these weapons of war that could sunder reality itself
All of that is what caused the warp to be what it is now in 40k
Making the warp and chaos always having been like this takes away from so much of what it is and what makes it good
I wouldn't even say it makes chaos more intimidating, either
Idk why GW is trying to set them up as this overarching big bad when we kinda have the tyranids for that
But i think everyone can agree to just ignore this Recton and say that the lore is still like how it was before, and no dumb changes were ever made
Yeah, that's more of a grimdark setting background than just "oh yeah it was always like this". Before this retcon, the universewas f###ed for a specific, *very cool* reason. Now, it's just f###ed.
every 40k edition that was good
The warp being a Timeless space is basically a get-out-of-jail-free card from the point of view of a writer.
It seems the consensus is to simply ignore this and force GW to retcon the retcon. The users of the IP have the real control and it's important to remind them of that sometimes.
there are people who to this day don't take end times as canon (despite even enjoying age of sigmar lore) and still focus on the old world so honestly yeah i can understand.
This is why Expanded Universe in Star Wars is where the real fans are, for instance.
@@TheRevan1337
Absolutely. Dark Empire, Yuzhaan Vong, Old Republic, no annoying whiney characters and so much more.
Honestly, f*ck Disney canon.
Their lore and product only exists so long as we the fans agree to purchase and consume it. Trust me. Once GW's bottom line starts hurting, they'll clean their shit up. This goes for any organization. The quickest way to hurt an entity and affect change is to threaten their wallet, or to go a step further, threaten their resources. Sad but true.
@@sovietunion7643 Literally me. I really like the worldbuilding potential of Age of Sigmar. I'm even about to paint some Saurus Warriors based on the new idea of them being the "Daemons of Order" to combat Chaos on a more supernatural front.
I also like the Lizardmen from Fantasy and just treat the lore as if they're in another timeline where the End Times never happened and Fantasy didn't die.
i heard the reason aussie shipments take a long time is because the upside down planes have to do a maneuver with the normal planes to exchange the packages similar to how fighter jets fuel up mid flight
I live in Australia and I can confirm this is how we operate down here
Fun fact, that's also why cargo planes exchanging products between Australia and the US aren't allowed to have toilets on them - the water circling in opposite directions could potentially reverse polarities, causing a catastrophic retcon of our world. Games Workshop didn't listen to this well-known fact in 2016, causing probably one of the dumbest retcons in all of 40K lore.
And that's how babies are made
@@SoulJnrwhat’s it like living upside down all the time?
Living right side up makes my back hurt, so your must feel great.
@@zaczaneIt's super hard on the feet living in Aus, constantly having to grip the ground so we don't fall off.
@@uzhirian6662 wait, my parents always said Aussies were distant relatives to the giant spiders there. That’s why you guys are not afraid of them, but also makes you able to walk on the ground(ceiling)
After consuming so much lore on the war in heaven from this channel I was able to explain it quite consistently to a friend who’s not good at knowing 40K lore. Then this rocks up 🤣 it doesn’t sit well with me compared to the original and I refuse to accept it 🤣
Well, 40k is a universe where the story you’re reading could be either the complete and uncut truth…or a bald faced lie concocted by the inquisition to make the Imperium look good. You decide what’s canon and what isn’t, because as far as anyone knows, we’re all just reading propaganda
(This is how I cope with shit like… _C.S. Goto…_ )
This never happened
@@TheCorrodedMan You are right. Even when one looks at our own history, people always have different views on how things went down. Not too mention that we tend to be taught what the current governing power wants to be true. When I got into 40K, I also wanted things to be established like this happened and it was final but overtime I started to realize that the idea of fabricated history is actually fun, not just in fiction but also real life too! Glad to meet someone with similar views
@@nedsteven4622 Nonsense. GW doesn't give two shits about anyone but the Imperium and Chaos in the setting. Imagine them framing the lore from the perspective of the other bookkeeping xenos races like the Eldar, Necrons, or Votann? That would require GW knowing or caring that they exist in the setting.
Unironically one of the most devastating spits to several different factions. Sick job GW.
As a Slaanesh player I always understood the birth of Slaanesh was meant to be interpreted as when he awoke and became aware. Before that he was a slumbering concept waiting to take form and that all the chaos gods have always existed it was just they required some spark to awaken them as entities.
Careful there tho. The chaos gods aren't really gods and shouldn't be understood as such, as Dan Abnett indicates when he more properly describes them as accumulations of psychic energy.
@@felicianofrontado3134 As I said they were concepts waiting to take form. At no point did I imply anything on the nature of divinity.
I remember there’s a book with a tau dude who apparently praised one of the chaos gods aside from farsight
@@felicianofrontado3134yes they are accumulations of energy, but with a purpose and contious. And as physics and the lore state, energ, can't be created, only transformed. The gods have a set amoubt of energy distributed inbetween them. If one gets more power, another one loses power, that's the great game. So it is true that in essence, they always existed, but the gods, the energy with personality if we want to call them that, were had a moment when they truly started beeing instead of just existing in theory
@@Thogrin1988 Indeed ! Specially since apparently the warp has no "time" to speak of.
We've had a couple editions since 2018, both of which have some decent involvement from the Necrons and Aeldari, but I haven't heard of this retcon at all in recent publications with the exception of the weird Slaneeshi time shenanigans. Maybe it went so far under the radar that GW has forgotten about it (hopefully)
We can only hope
Like all chaos, we have respoken it into existence
@@rayplays1443Its not a retcon. It was a side not speculation mention in a singular book.....I
@adrienwatson2179 basically hearsay because the author wasn't watched enough. into the depths of the black library with this one I say.
@@Jadefox32 Agreed 100% well said
The Retconnian must have been filled up with new residents thanks to GW's executive meddling.
Now malal has new friends :D
@@Ado_enthusiast1999 I want Malal to be Fleshed out. But that's just me I guess.
@@refugeehugsforfree4151I think a lot of people want that
@@refugeehugsforfree4151 They can do that with Malice, yet apparently we have Vashtorr and now the Dark King as other major candidates for "5th chaos god", now there's technically 7 chaos gods existing since now The Warp also being "timeless" and not being byproduct of collective cesspool of sentient beings' psychic processes
@@ohamatchhams That's what I was thinking, is the mere mention of them being in existence or possibility of the existing mean they now existed since forever too? So confusing.
I also like the idea of the chaos gods being not just bad, like Khorne is also the god of honour. But this just kind of fucks that greyness of it feels and says "nah unkillable big bad"
This used to be a thing, but more and more I feel GW pushing the Imperium to be “the avenging sons, the great heroes” and chaos to be “yeah, we bad” - though GW will still tout “no, no, this is definitely Grim Dark and nobody is good”
Same and the imperium being just as evil. Loved the thousand sons books take on tzeentch.
I mean it makes sense. Chaos, the textbook definition, isn't inherently bad and many would argue it's the natural state of the universe. Freedom is chaos, yet any sensible person wouldn't associate freedom with evil. In WH40K, there are no good guys. The God-Emperor is the antithesis to Chaos not because he's good, but because he's the absolute pinnacle of Order. There should be more redeeming factors to Chaos that actually make it Chaos and not just Evil.
@@darko-man8549 they have to make a point to SAY ITS BAD because we get fuckheads who suck the emperors chode and dress up as nazis in warhammer tournaments
Isn't the gods of order pretty much more evil then chaos in the original chaos source books? There are gods of order that would prefer the galaxy to be dead and steril while the chaos gods want it alive and in an upheaval?
If they were going to explain how Slaanesh was around for so long yet being born 10k years ago they could have went with Slaanesh originally being a Eldar god, corrupted and eventually becoming "reborn" as Slaanesh due to the war in heaven and all the crap it caused in the warp. The Dark Eldar only cracked the egg open, releasing the now chaos god. Still has it issues, but i think its better than "oh yea she always existed, even before she actually did".
"oh yea she always existed, even before she actually did" I mean when talking about the warp, causality need not apply. The way I understand the warp would totally allow something like that to take place. I think the idea of a warp god being "born" is deeply idiotic and should be reconned.
The handwave explanation is "The warp is acausal, meaning everything exists throughout all time on the Materium side of things, but you don't usually see it affect events in the Materium in this way." It's still really, really dumb, and part of why the Ynnari trilogy more or less died on book 2.
Rogal Dorn's voice from TTS "Nope! THAT. IS. DUMB."
But seriously, everything was wrapped up in a bow and had a beginning, middle and end. Now Games Workshop is changing stuff!
WHY YOU DO THIS?!
Maybe GW could make up a Slaanesh like Chaos God that died during the war in heaven. That way its successor, Slaanesh 2.0, can be born millions of years later. I don't know, I'm just making this up on the spot trying to fix what GW has broken. They'll probably patch the story over the next 10 years and make it a bit better. I assume they changed it to make chaos more of a threat and seem eternal and menacing. Sure, yeah, okay. How about you write some books where the named greater demons don't get their asses kicked by named heroes. Bring back more demon primarchs and make them the leaders of Chaos, not just Abadon. For the Warmaster of Chaos he isn't very threatening or memorable. Ask someone their favorite Chaos character. It'll most likely be a demon primarch or a named greater demon.
Nah clearly Archie from Fantasy/Sigmar is going to show and show Abbadon what a real Everchosen looks like.
Jokes aside, would love to have more interesting chaos characters actually doing stuff rather than Abaddon just kinda existing.
these daemoncages could have easily worked as something the Eldar pantheon created as part of how they controlled the warp in their day against a nascent Chaos, and providing an explanation as to how everything went downhill so quickly when it did
even a pre-fall Slaanesh can work since, in combination with anything that exists in the warp has always existed in the warp, since it makes the gods seem powerful to the point that they cast a shadow on Time itself. There was once a time before Slaanesh, but while She is in ascendance and until there is something on the scale of her own birth to cast her down, it is lost to us
these two could have worked to make Chaos seem powerful in its own way and using their unique abilities to the maximum effect, but they went too far and fucked it by making them the undefeatable evil at the dawn of time and other bullshit, and that's just boring
there's millions of warp entities that are merely a shadow on the surface, but until given power for all intents they dont exist, which is how slaanesh always existed, wasn't until the eldar murder fucked her into awakening that he took form within the warp as what we know of her now
Rule #1 ELDAR never smug ass never get accolades EVER. Rule alpha zero: TAU will get the credit, follow by smurf marines 😅
This is why I'm an orks fan they might lose most of the battles they appear in but GW hasn't fucked with their origins as much as other things
I think this affects Orks too, as the Krorks were made by the Old ones to combat the Necrons in the War in Heaven
@@geryldpina7091 Yeah that doesn't seem to have changed because Old Ones fighting chaos happens before that along with making the Eldar to fight chaos. Though it feels weird to make eldar to fight chaos even if no eldar have fallen to it in lore but if the Old Ones were gonna make an anti-chaos race why not combine traits of orks and eldar so you got a fast reproducing warrior race of psychic might that can't be corrupted. Also how Slaanesh was able to claim all eldar souls kinda makes it out to be that the Old Ones did a shit job making the eldar if they ended up making a new Chaos god that nearly wiped them out
Orks don't lose battles. Every battle is fun, fun = win.
@@XarkoCZ this is true
Same with Tyranids. They remain mysterious. As long as they don't hire Ridley Scott to write a Tyranids book where Kawl was their creator
Gw and retcons a match made in the eye of terror.
Implying that GW is eye of terror
Games Workshop is like the core within Eternity Well that disfigured Kairos then scared Tzeentch shitless to never even get close ever again
Even the Eye of Terror wants nothing to do with this retcon
Ok, so with the plot point about Slaanesh: Back when I started 40k, in 3rd ed the lore regarding Slaanesh wasn't that it was created by the Eldar, but that it was awoken by the Eldar. So perhaps to bring it in line with this new lore, Slaanesh was awake and fighting billions of years ago, fell asleep, and was then awoken by the Eldar once more. I dunno. This still sounds like a pointless lore change overall, but that was just what came to mind when I saw it.
Awaking can also be interrupted, as being created....which fits narrative.
And also, why do Eldar souls get drawn to Slaanesh specifically?
Plot Twist spoiler from GW employee: There was never a real Chaos faction since the beginning, it was just the enemies that we made along the way.
MIND BLOWN
I was never a big fan of the timelessness of chaos either. In my eyes, it seriously devalued how the materium is meant to affect the immaterium and the great game, i.e. plagues running rampant, Nurgle gains power. If the warp is timeless, then each god is at its weakest and strongest simultaneously and the great game has no meaning because its outcome, or more likely lack thereof, is already decided...
As for the retcon, I really hope they don't continue with this plot... I always liked the idea that the warp was relatively tame until the psychic pain of the War in Heaven shifted the scales towards it being more demonic, which then shifted further due to the actions of the younger psychic races, eventually leading us to Chaos as we know it.
I don't know if Majorkill is conflating the terms 'non-linear' and 'timeless'. A non linear warp would mean occasionally having effect precede cause and all kinds of convoluted sillyness, as well as events in the warp not nessecerially corresponding to events in the materium. Whereas, as you say, timeless literally just means 'everything all at once' which doesn't fit with the different chaos gods vying for power.
Yeah the second any fantasy setting starts bringing in time travel backwards im done wasting time trying to make sense of it, simoly becayse it blatantly cant ever make sense hence why its not part of the mathmatical theory that deifnes our real world physics. If something could go back, its very presence invalidates the timeline its from and hence itself. It ends up being Lazy gimicky fiction writing every time that ruins otherwise possible fictions.
Yeah, Chaos really needs to be more connected to what's going on with the materium, otherwise what is even the point of them doing anything in the first place?
@@bencox3641 Exactly, those who advocate "The Warp is timeless therefore chaos gods are also timeless" thing won't just admit that it's terrible lore writing that generates a looot and I mean a looooooot of plot holes and just more vexing and baffling bad contradictions, making the settings gravita to be taken seriously out of point (and Warhammer 40K since post 4th or post 7th editions onwards are really trying to be taken seriously
They really needs to make notes and make clear golden rules of lore on writing novels or else it's just turned into grey amorphous slops of dungs and pisses
@@ohamatchhams I remember someone saying that 40k needs a setting bible and yeah, when you have more people working on a single IP than a regular TV show you really need something like that.
And a lot of people use "it's satire" to defend bad writing from 40k, even though it's supposed to be taken more or less seriously since 4th edition.
Yeah I've never been a big fan of the 'everything boils down to Chaos' thing. For example, the Badab War was super interesting at first and the 'bad guys' had a point, at first, but they won't let mankind fight itself without one side aligning itself to eldritch space gods. Ever. So they go all on in Chaos for no reason like everyone else.
I like the Cadian Honour book because it’s essentially people wanting to crusade for the emperor but none of them know they are aligning themselves with chaos. The idea that people get tainted without knowing because they think they are the good ones fighting for the emperor, but being manipulated by some smart cultists is a really underused idea.
At least Huron didn’t go to Chaos until he was literally half dead, with barely any brothers and lost his world.
@@collecter343yeah I'm fine with badab as it shows how the imperium feeds chaos by design and the red corsairs are awesome
Things didn't get too chaotic until the literal end
40k desperately needs a non-imperial/non-chas humaan faction. The options for humaan faactions aare currently: Space 1984 and a bunch of mitsted goths who cant get a win.
@@PodreyJenkin138 Maybe! I could be looking at it the wrong way but I think an ongoing 'just secession' free of chaotic taint would be awesome.
For humanity it always boils down to either you're Imperium or you're Chaos at the end of the day and I wish they could have one notable example where that doesn't happen.
The slaanesh thing was always a thing though, but yeah, its probably for the best to just collectively ignore the retcon in favor of established canon until it goes away.
If it becomes real thing then we know there will never be 5th chaos god because there is none right now. If warp is timeless, then it should already contain every single incarnation of chaos gods that will ever be created.
@@galedex5661 Warp is timeless, and it has always been timeless. Its mentioned like a billion times in the lore.
@@Metalija1315Tbf, I get his point, this means that Chaos Gods always and already exist, so new Gods born or theory of Emperor in Chaos means that he always that powerful, since existing in Chaos means he always is.
@@novelreader1834 And any plotline that involves birth of new chaos god is now destined to failure because otherwise they would be that god at this moment already in timeless warp.
@@galedex5661 Pretty sure the way it works is that a chaos god is created, it always existed, but if one dies it never existed.
If their main goal was to make the daemon cages a plot point, they could have easily just set that near the end or even after the War in Heaven, kind of where the Enslavers came in too. It would make sense for the Necrons to do all their Blackstone stuff then, at the height of their power, then go to sleep thinking they've contained the problem.
Literally perfect. Aside ofc that it doesn't please their chaos boner
You said the R-word, now Luetin is coming at you with a tire iron
It would be cool to have proto-chaos gods that appeared and disappeared with the old ones. Like an ancient more terrible version of the current ones
A video on the relationships between the first founding chapters and there most prominent successors would be cool
the war in heaven is both the coolest and one of the most convoluted things i’ve ever read/heard about in 40k. retcons like this make it a clusterfuck to explain to newer fans
Khorne being an honorable god was always more of a fantasy thing rather than his 40k version. And even then it doesn't make sense when one of his slogans is that he doesn't care where the blood flows from. Khorne has always been a little derpy honestly lol...
@@damianwomack4668except that’s not derpy at all. Khorne is the martial god. Nurgle is the god of life. Tzeentch is the god of hope. Slannesh is the god of passion and pride.
They’re two sides of the same coin. That’s kind of the point.
@alexanderstrickland9036 You completely missed the point of what I was trying to point out bro. Khorne (in 40K at least) literally doesn't seem to care about where blood flows from, as I stated. Which goes against the entire honorable and martial aspect that some people attribute to him. Maybe Fantasy Khorne doesn't want you to kill babies, old people, or others who can't fight back, but Khorne in 40k seems perfectly happy with any kind of blood sacrifice. Whether that is just a symptom of 40k trying to be as grimdark as possible, idk. But it's just a funny contradiction with his character and I honestly wonder whether GW or BL even care about how he used to be considered some entity that only rewarded sacrifice of high-tier opponents. The only thing that seems to remain of that aspect of Khorne is that he still doesn't like pansy sorcery
@@damianwomack4668 it really doesn’t clash, the chaos gods are a reflection of the warp and the warp is a reflection of sapient life(ish) in their setting. Fantasy’s setting is less screwed over than 40k’s is, so Khorne reflects more of that martial honor/spirit in fantasy than in 40k - because the Imperium on average cares way less about martial honor and the like than the Empire does, and places way less significance on individual human life - and that’s not mentioning the rest of the average 40k Imperial’s screwed up morality, or the mess that is the rest of the galaxy. This isn’t at all a contradiction or a lore mistake, there are other places to find those; just incorrect equivalency of the settings.
Any retcons made after 2008 are to be disregarded.
"I recognise that the Council has made a decision. But given that it’s a stupid-ass decision, I’ve elected to ignore it." Warhammer fans
4:36 I sighed to myself at the exact same time as Majorkill sighed saying Necrontyr... Must be all you need to hear before losing the last shred of good lore hope 😂
I thought that the Eldar actually imprisoned demons on various worlds and that was after the War in Heaven. The old lore either states or heavily implies that the Eldar Pantheon effectively policed the warp. The demon cages which the Eldar could have built over 10s of millions of years could have been part of actual reason the Warp was so sedate for most of Human history. Even normie humans are considered acceptable demon food as opposed to Tau. This means that if the warp was as fucked up during the earlier ages of man I really doubt we would have bothered with warp travel.
It would have been sublight sleeper ships until a non-warp FTL was figured out, like was what stored in the AI of the Esperanza. If you can use black holes as weapons you can probably create wormholes as well. Wormholes AFAIK are a thing in 40k.
I agree that the pantheon existing for all time as far as the Materium is concerned is pretty dumb. If I were GW the calming of the warp for 60ish million years would have been the a combination of Necron and Eldar efforts for differing reasons. The calmed part would only be the upper layers so humans and others could use warp drive and not die immediately. While the pantheon is eternal as far as the warp is concerned they were effectively kicked out of the warp shallows. This would be in line with various in book mentions of "Don't go too deep into the warp" as that is where the eternally bad stuff lives.
The slumber of the Necrons and the Fall of the Eldar opened up the kiddie pool again.
Edit: Grammar/typos
Interestingly, These retcons bring the chaos gods more in line with Warhamner Fantasy where Chaos was eternal, fought the old ones , and are the ultimate force that destroy the world.
Fantasy Chaos didn't claim that Chaos was eternal, just that it was older than any of the civilisations on the world. It left open the possibility that Chaos had an origin, just that none of the protagonists had any idea what it was. 40K, on the other hand, ultimately encompasses the entire history of sapient life in the Milky Way galaxy and is our own future according to the premise of the setting, which means that 1) they have to commit to whether it has an origin or is eternal (and it's hard to claim the latter given that the universe isn't and Chaos needs sapient life to draw power from) and 2) there needs to be some explanation why the start of the third millennium is apparently a relatively safe environment for at least one pre-FTL civilisation. (Chaos being relatively quiet, and the Aeldari being in charge and able to keep races like the greenskins in check, explains the second, since the Aeldari are one of the few factions that isn't in the habit of wiping out sapient species for the crime of living on a world suitable for habitation.)
The Chaos gods in Fantasy and 40k are one and the same. Chaos is a multiversal force of destruction that's responsible for a universal cycle of death and rebirth across all of reality. This has been canon for literally decades now.
@@worldstateproductions8787 if that's the case when does the great horned one show up in 40k
@@eggmin8967 Hopefully soon, they need some more color.
@@worldstateproductions8787 a slightly different shade of green?
See if I was going to fix this lore what I would do is that when Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle were born during the war in heaven I'd have them be rampaging feeding off all the war and psychic energy being flung around by the Old Ones and other races. The Old Ones were still fighting the C'tan and Necrons so didn't have time to properly deal with the daemons so they'd just trap armies of them on planets with the mindset of dealing with them later. Then closer to the end of the war some rampaging C'tan release them by destroying the daemon cage planets. Maybe this could be one of the events that convinces the Silent king to turn on the C'tan
Can even have the slanneshi demons being in the cages make sense, as due to there being an ungodly number of demons trapped there, the barriers between real space and the warp would be thin, and slanneshi demons could have popped through when the eye of terror was formed. Doubt the old ones would have really cared if anything got into the cages, so long as nothing could ever get out.
Great idea
This is good. Make this "war against chaos" a part of or phase of the war in heaven instead of its own thing
That is a WAY better retcon than what GW shat out.
@@alexanderingraham8255 I've found that almost anyone can do better retcons than GW
The BL author Aaron Dembski-Bowden is probably really happy with this new setting change (if it truly is the official thing from now on), as the guy really loves his Chaos stuff.
GW remembered about that one Ctan possibly sitting outside the galaxy of the 40k setting in its sphere within a sphere prison, possibly controlling the Tyranids in the process, and decided "Naw. Instead of having an interesting and potentially bloody storyline that doesn't involve reality tumors" they instead made the reality tumors more relevlant lmao
That would be epic, too bad they ditch it.
My headcannon for those cages is that they were actually made by the Kabal(a council of all kinds of super xenos including the Slann the direct descendants of the old ones) as a way to combat chaos.
Don’t worry Major I still consider your video on the war in heaven Canon
SPOILERS FOR THE END AND THE DEATH PART II
Reading that book at the start I did wonder if the Kabal was LITERALLY just a Dark Eldar faction meddling with things. A Dark Eldar emmisary turns up and says to the rest of the Eldar something along the lines of "Yeah we had a crack at fixing this whole Imperium/Horus/Chaos thing, hasn't worked so well" least that was my reading.
@@fromthedumpstertothegrave3689 in fairness I did confuse the Kabal for a Dark Eldar cabal at first as well so don’t worry your not the only one who got things mixed up
There's also that civilization that new about chaos but the imperium ended up destroying, they easily could have made it so those guys were the ones that made the cages.
@lachlanevans5013 Minor point, but it's "The Cabal" with a C. A "Kabal" is a Dark Eldar subfaction, "The Cabal" is the conspiracy of various xenos, psykers, xenos psykers, etc.
@@Nyghtking Nice theory but I don't see it. The *name draws a blank* were basically able to deal with chaos by just being super chill (oversimplification). Though in fairness they had the athame that erebus nicked and started the whole heresey process off with just lying in a museeum. So for a species that has mastered avoiding chaos' influence they wern't too smart. Though I think the implication was more 'chaos is something we beat so long ago but we keep the odd reminder about of how bad it was to stop people forgetting'
Point was, their way of beating chaos seemed waaay more passive and chill than the idea of actively trapping daemons.
Noice!!
40k finally gets the modern story telling reatment of "yes, I (insert unknown writer without experience and training) have this unquestionably great, basically Hugo-awards worthy idea to fill an only by me percieved hole in the lore. And in my head it all comes together so great - what do you mean there is already a lot of lore which funtions nicely and that there is no plot hole where I am the only one to think one to be?!? No, it is not a Galileo fallacy and the existing lore - wait, there is further existing lore that build up logiacally on the one I try to fix…? What hack wrote that junk?!? - would absolutely not become nonsentical because of my third-rate fanfiction! I promise on my lib-arts degree. In my head it totally works and my friends all tell me that I am a good writer, just trust me bro!"
Games Workshop try not to ruin their own lore challenge (impossible)
(Primaris drop soon)
I remember a while back one of the authors made a comment about how “everything is and isn’t cannon”. Like a simple one to look at is compare the faction maps from the Codexes and compare them. They are vastly different
Pretty sure the argument for Slaanesh is that the Warp gods are higher dimensional beings not bound by things like time.
Similar to how the Emperor was able to talk to a Custodies who went back in time as a child and was aware of who he was.
5:47 So this is the Void Dragon, or at least the shard of it, Big E had fought and beaten as St. George the Dragonslayer on medieval Terra before sealing it away on Mars.
Alright
A theory on the situation.
Maybe the version of "Chaos" the Old Ones and their contemporaries dealt with was different than the current iterations? Since the Warp Gods are basically sapient collections of energy, maybe they were bleeding off power from even older versions, that eventually got subsumed/rebooted into the current entities we know eons later.
Oooo interesting 🤔
Above GW writers' competence level
Slaanesh having existed since the dawn of time thanks to the warp being timeless has always been a thing. When I began playing WH40K in the late 90s it was already the case in lore.
Yes and no, the way that bit of lore is written it’s more said as though as far as the other gods are concerned, she has always existed, that doesn’t mean she actually had tho. That’s why a lot of people adhere to the theory that the chaos gods always existed as formless concentrated emotions and such, and their births are just them gaining actual sentience and self-control. So Slaanesh may have always existed as pure emotions before hand, but did not become Slaanesh until the Eldar caused her birth
@@darthrevan4485 no, the chaos demon codex was very specific. This thing about Slaanesh having always existed « and yet never existed at all » is specifically and explicitly tied to the way time flows in the Warp, how it’s non-linear. Because of that demons can exist before their birth and after their death. And that’s not the first time that time being non linear in the warp and allowing for time travel has been mentioned in the lore.
@@TheLokiel Then if The Warp have always been existed, should've Emperor have always been existed? Then should've eldar pantheon never being devoured by Slaanesh since they hold the dominions over The Warp for hundreds of millions of years? Shouldn't the chaos gods fear Eternity Well or anything of Deep Warp? Alongside other fucktons of questions of numerous plot holes, I'm not even starting about the souls of Primarchs which supposed to be lesser warp gods and shouldn't even be permanently killed by Emperor since Warp's timelessness implies every being also unaffected by changes whatsoever, yet we still seeing clear permanent changes anyway
Just because it's been established, doesn't mean they're good or above writing, it's just terrible lore and just poke out the bad writing to make the settings deserves to not be taken seriously
@@ohamatchhams I never said it was good lore, I said it was not a retcon. Furthermore, it is coherent with various mentions of the warp making people time travel and it’s one of the lore explanation for the demons and psykers ability to predict the future. Lastly, while I said timeless, it’s not exactly true: what the lore actually said is that time in the warp is non linear. It can speed up or slow down in certain areas, cause can follow consequence, … It’s not always the case but lorewise Slaanesh has always been one of those cases.
@@TheLokiel I mean, time is relative to the individual perceiving it. Even if within the realm of chaos Slaanesh is perceived to have always existed, which is possible due to the warp’s lack of laws regarding time or really anything, the materium does still have strict laws on the flow of time, and is why Slaanesh wasn’t devouring the souls of the Eldar before her birth. Within the immaterium, maybe she has always existed, but here in the materium, she hasn’t and has no influence on events before her birth. Or at least that’s how it should be if GW could stick to a plot line for 5 minutes.
as a fan of multiple factions in 40k, i'll just ignore this retcon.
Tzeentch laughs in the darkness at their retconn :P
I now need to know which books caused this retcon.
I could believe that as the war in heaven went on the wrap became more effect and demon incursions started to increase. After C'tan were shattered demon attacks increased and aldari and necrons had to put aside differences and work together. Ive actually heard a theory that the old ones created the aldari gods to protect them from Chaos. Just an idea. GW really needs to think this through and release a definite version of the war in heaven.
"Heard a theory"............😅
I choose to believe that the Ruinous Powers were ALL Slumbering within the Warp until the "Birth of Slannesh" woke the 4 of them up as collectively they inhaled the warp storms of Old Night, but Slumbering doesn't mean non-existent just unaware of themselves.
I think this is a classic case of someone in gw who was recently hired who knows just the bare minimum of the story and was given the power to write the lore, they told him, "chaos cages" And cart blanc to skrew around with the lore to make a pile of bull honky
Nah, this was a long-time writer making an ass of himself lorewise.
@@internetzenmaster8952 thats even worse
@@internetzenmaster8952 Who? And what book?
I think it's a bit like Fire Warrior. The book shows a Tau corrupted by Khorne, but then later they show chaos as having no influence over them.
And boom, latest lore, possible farsight corruption?
I think they have a baseline that they follow, but they throw some shit in the fan (or at the fans) to see what sticks.
This right here..bingo!
Retcon? Haven't seen this happen at all 😱😱
While the daemon cages are a cool plot point I feel like they didn't need the retcon to introduce them. Like just say the peak eldar made them after daemons became a thing. Makes the eldar more relevant if a daemon cage shows up in the current setting.
Exactly. It's completely pointless. There were examples of greater daemons and their armies being sealed away in certain planets for going on 20 years now. They didn't need to add this stupid shit.
@@dark7elementin the first Dawn of war, the demon on Tatarus was imprisoned by the eldar before the event of the game. This would support making the eldar responsible for the demon cage. They didn’t need to retcon anything.
Do a video on the chief librarian from each legion.
Really? Again?
Hey thats my idea brother!
"As flat as The Emperor's arse after being a Throne-Potato for 10 millenia" seems appropriate enough
What's really interesting is that in The End And The Death vol2 Loken defeats Samus by simply not fearing him anymore. I think that was a retcon also from how daemons operate. If thats the case, Chaos can be wiped out easily...
No. It had a lot to do with reading that book as well. Basically he had his power pulled away and dispersed
From what I remember the necrontryr were always mentioned as being powerhungery. that was one of the reasons why the old ones didn't give immortality
its also possible that the old ones simply COULDN'T give the necrontyr immortality as the necrons souls were so small. same situation as the tau in the modern setting who live very short lives as their souls are small and no amount of magic tech can solve that problem of small souls meaning short lives.
there is a genuine possibility that the old ones told the necrons this that they couldn't help their problem and the necrons didn't believe them and lashed out
Let’s go new Majorkill vid
All these people claiming first and the one who is didn't claim it. Respect dude.
@@Corrosion15people who say first are so stupid just enjoy the damn video people you won’t get internet brownie points for it
@TheNecronCryptek lmao right? Yes. I hope you have an amazing day dude. (:
@@Corrosion15 you too mate
Wow bud... hope this news doesn't put you into an existential crisis. Sorry to hear your entire lore is now upside down.
Majorkill showing off the santa hat like its a shirt made my day, laughed a little too hard at that
I agree there were already great ways to create steaks and add daemon cages as a plot point and instead GW decided to fuck over every good bit of lore about the war in heaven that still remains
It's kinda like Valrak was talking about Abby looking for shards of the Anathame. There's gonna be a load of warp farkery going on now if he completes his quest.
I'm waiting for Isha to love Nurgle since day one retcon.
But seriously would love her to get some lesser daemons
Sounds as bad as the Ymir and King Fritz retcons in Attack on Titan’s ending.
@@brandonlyon730James Workshop what a man you are. As a reward
To badly quote the Legend, Adam Savage:
"I reject this lore and substitute it with my own"
It's worth noting The War in Heaven never originally featured the Necrons, or the C'tan, or the Old Ones, that was a big retcon in it's own right. The War in Heaven was originally more an Eldar related event involving the Eldar Deities.
As for the Chaos Gods being around during the War In Heaven, Time in the Warp has no meaning, things exist for eons within it that have yet to be born, yet have always been or might never be. It's why i like the idea that the Emperor didn't get his power boost from the Chaos Gods, but from his own future self ensuring it's own creation.
2:50 Chaos was born from the War in Heaven between the Old Ones & their creations, the Aeldari and Krorks, and the Necrontyr and the C'tan that made the Horus Heresy barely a blip on the radar.
And said conflict had altered the Realm of Souls into the Warp where the three older Chaos Gods: Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle reside.
That TTS "universal history" retelling back in 2015 that you typed is somehow way tidier and doesn't constantly breaking lore informations embarrassingly compared to this retcon tbh
The only good bit is the idea of the Demon Prisons, but they could've brought that in to the setting in literally any other way. Like making it a Necron made series of structures similar to the Black Pylons, that instead of straight deleting warp entities from their effective range, trapped them there for study or something
Yeah, that's what should've been implemented, it's also could adding layers to the old lore of what the Eldar doing at their heights asides from revelling in decadence, so it's not ended up wasteful, they could even make the daemons non-Slaaneshi until Slaanesh awakens and turns majority of the daemons in the cages to be Slaanesh-corrupted types of daemons later on after Slaanesh's birth-scream or something like that
What could have happened:
Chaos has always been part of the warp, but through the efforts of the Old Ones, Daemons were locked up in prisons in real space in order to weaken the chaos gods and keep the warp mostly peaceful. The War in Heaven caused the destruction of the Daemon prison worlds, giving power back to the chaos gods, who then waited for the right time to strike. Slaanesh has always been around, however a majority of its Daemons were locked up by the Old Ones, causing Slaanesh to resent them and their creations. After feeding on the Eldars' depravity long enough, Slaanesh finally attacked them and their gods in what appeared to be their birth.
Chaos came from negative emotions. Unless there have been a constant interplanetary war, there won't be enough negative emotions for the denizens of the warp to become daemons and the warp to become a hellhole.
The Necrontyr can maybe turn a region of the warp into a hellhole with their constant infighting but turning the warp itself into a hellhole is a large undertaking.
@ThaDude exactly, which is how they already exist. And why they would wait to attack instead of starting or joining a war. They're weak in the beginning and most of the warp is peaceful, so the Old Ones imprison pieces of the Chaos gods to prevent chaos from spreading throughout the warp, and giving them more power.
This is a great idea. They existed but were weak af compared to now and thus were at least defeatable back then. It also removes the need for the eldar to have already existed and some bullshit alliance with the necrontyr existing for no reason.
@@arrowstrike1174 How can you imprison pieces of entities that are absent? The chaos gods are not yet born. There were only denizens of the warp and the warp was relatively peaceful.
The main principle and concept of the warp is turned upside down by making them present at the early era of the galaxy. The warp is timeless but its state changed from peaceful to a hellhole after the War in Heaven. If the chaos gods were to be present before the War in Heaven, they would be specks of negative emotion during that time and can't be distinguished from the other denizens of the warp.
@ThaDude Three of the four Chaos gods have always existed. This just retcons Slaanesh into existence at the same time. Just because they were too weak to do anything before doesn't mean they didn't exist.
GW: we're giving you new lore
Me: its not bettter than the old lore so we don't care
What books are these demon cages mentioned in? Also the new war in heaven concept. I want to look into this more.
Angels blade and rise of the Ynari apparently
@@bighairyballoon4818 Thanks. I eventually found the reddit article that he's referencing.
You're a legend for the daily uploads, got me into 40K a few months ago! Best 40k tuber and inspirational for self care. RESPECT!
If we take the idea of the WIH being a thing of legend that barely anyone alive in the 41st millennium knows exactly what happened in, this could work with the previous lore, but its a big maybe/ This story could be the set up for some daemon oracle stuff, a grand deception by chaos to trick people into thinking they really are unbeatable, and resistance is futile. Maybe it could be continued a deception told by Vashtorr to build himself up as this big player in the warp? Or some fragmented memory of a c'tan shard? there's possibilities, but they'd have to be careful writing a plot around a great deception/retcon-that-isn't-a-retcon, if that's the route they want to take
GW has opened the unholy Retconomicon and summoned forth a dark power of wanton narrative decimation that puts Doctor Who to shame. Imma just 🙉and pretend that this whole lore change is the in-universe result of a Mechanicus scribe spilling ink on the page after an especially violent toasterfuck session
MK, can you include sources in description for semi-specific things like this?
These are just rumors conjured by tzeench
The idea of whole planets traveling armies of Daemons is really cool. But it could be done by any advanced alien empire. It could be the Eldar, or any of the factions the Emperor and Horus exterminated. Or just someone new, or some wild card like the Hrud. Also could’ve been the Old Ones without changing the lore. Just make it to that these planets were giant grease traps or roach motels constructed during the War in Heaven, when the warp started getting too freaky.
Which books did this information come from? I have never heard of this and I considered myself well read up
Same. I love to read the book, this first time I’ve seen a lore channel talk about this, and it being out for couple years
The war in heaven is supposed to have lasted for a really long time right? So it makes sense that there would have been a lot more twists and turns in it than what we are aware of, and probably more factions too. I could easily see Chaos being created by the war and also being a part of it, since the war simply lasted long enough for both of those things to happen.
The retcon is now making The Old Ones existing billions of years before War in Heaven and Chaos being existing since day 1 (despite The Warp feeds on the limitations of sentient beings' psychic powers, so it's not even ALL psychic beings)
Games Workshop simply inflates and exaggerates The Warp and Chaos so much that it's contradicts most of their established lore and Cosmology of Warhammer 40K universe both of the Immaterium/The Warp and Materium/Realspace, this is also to considered that C'tan race at their peak should've even rival if not outright more powerful than chaos gods, on top of other questions about how there's also linear struggles for Malice, Vashtorr and now recently The Dark King to be candidate(s) for chaos gods and even the 4 existing chaos gods don't trread lightly on them since each already have their own motifs and works more into Realspace and directly bridging Materium and Immaterium so they should've been way more tangible and able to grow more powerful than existing 4 chaos gods that only dwells in each otheir realms of chaos, so are Malice, Vashtorr and The Dark King makes chaos gods to be always 7 in total or no? Also shouldn't Eldar Pantheon able to elude chaos gods since time and space being meaningless too? Or how Emperor and Tyrannids' Hivemind's "Shadow in The Warp" always existing, even Eldar Harlequinn witnessing Enthroned Emperor's psychic presence and changes her mind to now believe that Emperor of Mankind is even bigger and more horrifying than Slaanesh too (in that book where Harlequinn somehow able to kill a few Custodians)
Now the retcon breaks the established lore facts so much that no need for mental gymnastics, it's just bad writing, Chaos gods should've have their own origin and ending or else it's just stupid fatalism in spite of how Warhammer 40K books views Prophecies as a fickle thing, then even powerful warp entties including Warp gods (chaos-based or Order-based ones) should've been tangible and limited albeit in mass Psychic forms instead of these "always existed" nonsense that Kairos Fateweaver's lying side would tell to a chaos worshipper just to sleep well about their beliefs being justified by exaggerative lies, instead of LORE FACTS
'Preordained' and 'The Warp' are terms I can't imagine fitting together.
New race: Retconnus.
Main trait: is ignored by everybody
I feel like if they're gonna make the gods timeless they should still be limited what they can do at a particular time because of the state of the galaxy. Like Slaneesh could exist before the Fall but she couldn't do anything. However if she summons demons a bil years ago then that doesn't work.
The annoying thing about this retcon is that it actually creates more consistency than it breaks. The timeless warp is the reason a ship can appear at its destination before it departs
If that's the thing, then should've been about The Warp have limits but can breaks convention with the amout of the surging tide of psychic elements to break into Immaterium, as The Warp supposeldy made up of Psychic energy, it has origin point from beginning ot end, or else anything and I mean ANYTHING (like making up warp gods that's more powerful than either Emperor, chaos gods, Gork and Mork, surviving eldar gods, etc to appear and doing something greater in The Warp or making legions of post-humans that's more powerful than any warp gods) can happen
timelessness of The Warp means that there's no action and reaction to concept of The Warp in Warhammer 40K and therefore lack of consequences in writing, it's terrible lore additions and emphasizing fatalism of lore and worldbuilding into absurd narrative degrees, at this point any child can form up something better than whatever the hell Games Workshop are concocting off
GW was infiltrated by Alpharius, or maybe Omegon.
This retcon is heresy and must be purged
You know the cool thing about 40k lore? You can just ignore the bits you don't like.
Dont think of your old videos as "misinfo" but rather as potentially interesting documents and time captules of a bygone era in 40k lore!
If I ever win the Mega Millions I'm buying GW and hiring MajorKill as a quality assurance tester for every bit of lore.
GW seems to truly not understand that the factions, Necrons, Humanity, Eldar and yes, even the Old Ones, need the existence of a time that I shall call "Not-shit" to have the chance to grow and become powerhouses that can influence the setting.
Otherwise it raises the question, 'how can any faction grow and not just be immediately corrupted by Chaos'? that is the purpose of the 'not-shit' period, for all the factions to appear and grow with little threat and no questions to be asked.
The also don't seem to understand the kind of Fantasy 40K is, the same kid of fantasy LOtR is, the "The world used to be more fantastical and magical but because of our own Hubris magic is dying and that's terrible." kind of fantasy, but now...nope everything just sucked forever from the dawn of time, sucks to suck, I guess?
Yeah they've made this new lore sound more like scientology.
They did WHAT NOW!?
The more recent Trayzen novel outright states the Necrons know bog all about Chaos, so looks like a quiet reset of rhe reset has happened
Erebus must have broken into the black library to write this retcon
Thank God. I thought you were going to say female space marines were going to become canon
Maybe it's more that the essence and vices that created slannesh actually allowed lower demons of hers to exist before she was given full sentience with a concentrated form.
Slannesh has always existed and was also born by the Eldar. There is no time in the warp
Time also moves differently in the warp compared to the material universe. So even though Slaanesh was birthed by the fall of the Eldar race, its also possible for Slaanesh to have been around even before that because of how unimaginably different time works in the warp.
Yeah, once Slaanesh was created in about 30k, Slaanesh had always existed in the warp. Pretty sure that's always been the line - not even a retcon either - since there's been a few references to The Great Game and at one point Tzeentch even allowed itself to be beaten and reformed cos it was winning against the other three.
Damn, come back a few weeks later and he's rocking the Gordon Ryan hair 😂😂 oss