Pretty gnarly. That's about what my 455 looked like when I tore down. I highly recommend sending it off to Butler to get it bored with their torque plates on. The steel crank and rods I picked up for mine were under $600 total and are tons lighter and stronger than what I had. Those guys did an awesome job cleaning up the castings I sent in and everything is going together easily.
Thanks Brother. It's a little more complicated than that... If I lived in Tennessee, no brainer. However, it's $500 just to send the block to and from California. It's a lot cheaper to machine locally, with torque plates, etc... (I only need honing) I already have the 467 Eagle Rotating Assembly, with Butler/Ross forged pistons from Butler. To send everything back to them is not reasonable, for regrinding and rebalancing. Nor is the 12+ week lead time. :) (They're super busy) I did have to source 4.191" Ross/Butler pistons ... thank god those were in stock. :) Thanks for the comment!
Thanks for the transparency my friend.... No pride just fix it! Waiting to see your next episode. In highschool a neighbor and I got together and bought a 69 GTO at a towing auction for 300.00 bucks.... 1978. It dropped a valve and blown that piston up and the rod tried to cut the block in half! Lol. Knock section of the cam out the exact size of the small end... He bought a Crane cam close to Ram air 4 specs had the other machine work done, put it together in a not so shop, massaged that mother in..... That thing was a beast! That's why I love Pontiacs today, flat torque curve and will rev past the valve springs capabilities.... He blew it up again, should've put dual springs in it.... Lol
Sorry you are having to do this, but thanks so much for taking the time to document your findings and walk us through the troubleshooting and corrective actions. Very helpful for us non-mechanics!
Ha! Yeah, I'm sorry too... but, not really. As you can tell, I'm not a professional, and I learn from my mistakes. It inspires me to give others confidence in themselves, to work on their own car. Thanks for watching, and for the great comment!
Hurts to see that more machine work is needed. Makes me super nervous about my 455 that sat for over ten years... flushed the fuel system, fresh oil, coolant "looked" good. Fired up with timing totally off, still ran awesome w/70psi oil pressure until it overheated! All the coolant in the block was crystalized, flushed it all out changed oil again and saw a very small amount of shiny in it. I've got an hei to swap in and rebuild the Qjet, fingers crossed...
Yeah, kicking myself for not doing a good job the last time I had the engine out. At least I can upgrade and/or change some parts, like going with a Butler Pro Pump, New Valley pan to solve the PCV issue, in combination with a M/E Wagner adjustable PCV valve. Thanks for sharing your story, I like the plan!
What a PITA. You've spent a small fortune and things are still not right with it. As a long time Pontiac enthusiast, it pains me to see another Pontiac enthusiast have significant engine problems. I truly hope that you're able to straighten out all the issues and get back on the road with your Goat before the summer is over. Good luck.
Thanks Bill... yeah, my fault for rushing that last "lifter swap". I should've done what I'm doing now.. .back then. Ohhh well, living and learning... part of my job. Ha, ha... thanks for the comment! Yes, I will be back on the road for some summer lovin. See ya!
We will get through this! I’ve been chatting with you on ig, my cranks at the machine shop as we speak. You showed different symptoms than me. Mine was clearly oil starvation only. I didn’t have the catastrophic debris from a failed lifter. I am slowly getting it done one piece at a time. Hope it goes well for you poncho brother! Can’t wait for the next video
Ohhh yeah... yes, we will get through this. Ha, ha... glad to hear you're on your way to a fresh start, like me. And, I agree, no need to rush. (I made that mistake last time, which I will not do again) See you soon!
I am in the situation now of a lifter that went bad. Found needle bearings in the oil pan during inspection. So I start the process of getting the motor pulled. I had a few younger guys saying I was over thinking it and to just replace the lifter and cam and be done with it. I just kept on and pulled it to their shrugs. And yes I’m finding bits and pieces all over but it seems I caught it early enough. Wife was on it with telling me it was running rough and started ticking. Moral is that yes don’t skimp pull that motor apart and do it right.
It's good you tore it down before it got worse. Made things salvageable. Too bad it will need new positions and a rebuild, but you could have easily trashed the crank or rods or gouged the cylinder walls too deeply. I'd say you dodged a lot of bullets and it will come back better. I think I'd just say it's a 470 when you finish. Good luck with the rebuild!
Welp, 470 it is! ha, ha... yeah, I'm glad I caugt it in time too... as frustrating as it is, this is a great opportunity to do it right, and this time, blue print the bearings myself. Will also make some PCV plumbing changes, which I'll show why... thanks, as always!
@@FastMonty I bought a bore mic and a set of micrometers so I could check clearances on my engine. I could not get repeatable measurements with the bore mic so I relied on the machine shop's measurements instead. Hope you are able to execute the metrology more repeatably than me!
Sorry to hear that this happened! But if there is one guy who will figure out what's wrong and how to rectify the issue that would you! Looking forward to your next episodes and the rebuild process. I have always thought about building my own motor and now I get to see what's involved.
Real sorry to hear that, after all that meticulous good work, good news in the bad is that the bore can be cleaned up with a 0.60 overbore. i am on a 455 with a 0.60 overbore now. And i change oil probably more often than needed. full synth with 1200 PPM zinc/phosphorus. All these incidents with roller lifter faliures, makes me scared to make the switch. I wish you all the best on the rebuild, I'll tune in to the next video for sure.
Thanks Stian! Yeah, good news is I can now blue print the bearings myself, where someone else did the last set. As well as some other changes... pro oil pump, new PCV set up, valley pan, etc... it'll be fun. Thanks for the comment!
Thanks Michael. No worries... I get to do the bearing blue printing, myself. Versus trusting someone else. As well as make some more changes. :) Thanks again.
Man Mike, I don't want to sound like a smart ass remark , but it seems if it weren't for BAD luck you wouldn't have any luck at all. Man I am so saddened to see all these things happen to your motor. Nothing but good thoughts moving forward. The Pontiac God's are looking down on you and saying the force is strong with this one.☺🙏 I'm praying no more problems for you . The only bright side to this is your video's are teaching others . THE best of LUCK to you bud.👍👍🍀
Thanks John... it's my own fault, as for the lack of cleaning the debris out the last time. The PCV issue was new to me too... I have changes coming in that regard, and making some other changes too... it'll be fun. Thanks for watching, and commenting!
@@FastMonty I know that all of your followers including me are sorry to see you getting a run of bad luck , but I also know that we all can't wait for the Pontiac Professor to teach our next class on repairs and what not to do.✌☺Keep the great videos rolling.
Expensive lesson for sure! but if you have not considered it yet i would rebuild or replace the lifters, dissy the heads and re fresh them and if you really wanted to de burr the block inside and out before the machine shop. i am just finishing up my build and have used Butler, KRE and nightmare performance all have been great to deal with along with summit.
Thanks Steven... yeah, I had the heads torn apart, cleaned, and valve job. Great idea about de burring the flashing on the inside... unfortunately, I'm past that step. I can still do most of the outside. Thanks again for the comment!
@@FastMonty I'm about to build a 412 for my '66 with #16 heads, and this will be my first Poncho build. Coming from big blocks and LS's, it should be interesting.
@@ctg288 Ha! You have way more experience than I do... you'll be fine! (Although you may want to check out my head cooling trick, to give you some ideas) th-cam.com/video/DWvVkrGQDsw/w-d-xo.html Have fun!
Hey Monty, good vid as usual ! Sorry to see a damn aftermarket lifter causing this. You are moving forward with it and for the better, good work ! I am about to start a 461 build for my 70, and i am considering using LS hyd roller lifters. Many are going down this route now as they’e been super reliable for the LS boys and they actually fit our pontiacs.
Thanks Brother... Yeah, if you go with the LS lifters, make sure the oil band is in the right place, and get one of those "anti-rotate" plates that bolts into the valley. Sorry, the name escapes me, but looks like a great idea. See you next week!
I think there is a crack on cylinder 1 from the cylinder to lifter journal. Dont know your valve train setup, but highly recommend Johnson lifters and Smithbrothers pushrods.
Yeah, big bummer... my fault. Oh well, moving on, and doing it right. Great to hear you got the short block from Butler, a ton of work goes into making it perfect. I'm sure you're fine on the rest... just make sure you PCV system is perfect. I have a video coming soon about that. (That was half my problem originally) Thanks Marcus!
@@FastMonty thanks Monty, I really liked your video on the water ports on the back of the heads the way you connected them with AN lines. I really want to get on that soon
@@sampson7941 thanks Marcus... bare minimum, using standard heater hose will work. If you go the AN route, it takes some patience. Especially if you're doing it in your engine. Send me an email, or hit me up on Instagram and I'll send you a picture of the latest configuration. Thanks for the comment!
Great video man it’s unfortunate to go through the damage but it is entertaining and very helpful so thanks for your effort can’t wait for the next vid 😜
Do you have access to a tuner with an engine Dyno. If you are in CA I know westech is somewhere in CA. food for thought. It may be expensive to get done, but at least it will be tuned, and tested so you won't have to pull the engine again.
Thanks Rick... this engine was dyno'd. Testing and tuning an engine before installation will not predict oil starvation or premature failure of an internal component, like a lifter, in my case. Thanks for the comment!
@@FastMonty that's awesome if you Dyno it again we'd love to see that. Sucks that it scorched a bearing, but at least you caught it before it spun. That always sucks. I do remember that pontiac engines were notorious for frying bearing because of the large clearances.
@@efssurplusfunds I still have to get to FiTech for some Dyno tuning... so, that'll be fun. (After my break in period, of course) Yeah, I'll be covering the bearing clearances in this rebuild. Thanks again for the support.
That sucks I will be sure to make sure my PCV is plumbed correctly when my engine gets rebuilt. I am sticking with the 400 not going to go with the stroker. Just round port e head roller cam and air ram restoration manifolds with a forged bottom end
Yeah, Brian, it sucks... but, I now get to do the bearing blue printing myself, as I didn't do the last build. I'm also making more changes to the PCV system, and valley pan, you're going to like that. BTW, it's ok to go with a stroker, and 0.030" over. (That converts it to a 455, but with a 3" main journal. Consider it.
@@FastMonty I will go with the stroke next time I get it built I need to replace the 8.2 before I jack up the tq and there too many other things that need attention now however if the crank(previous owner put a forged one in)is bad I will get it stroked and pray for my 8.2
well, you pretty much found what you expected to see (other than the broke piston) you know from the view here, it looked as though the lifter bore of the one the let go, has a ridge down at the bottom? do any others have that ridge? mabey it was just the camera angle. was that lifter scored in any way? might want to run a bore gauge to check if anything funny going on there also. Really sorry for your troubles there Monty. Well, at least you'll will have piece of mind once ya get'r put back together. Looking forward to the progress.
Thanks Rickey! I'll double check that bore... it was scored the last time, and I had to delicately hone it out. At least that score was below the oil band, so there's nothing to "catch on". Thanks for the comment!
@@tanner8288 ahhh, bummer. Rear mains typically blow because of a poor PCV system. (Just learned that with my intensive research on my PCV issue) When I put the crank back in, I'll be showing off the one piece rear main seal from BOP. Keep at it!
As much as I enjoy following your journey with the Pontiac motor, the process is giving me a little bit of anxiety that’s also making a stronger case for an LS swap in mine. I was completely opposed to doing an LS swap in my 69 GTO at first. I’m starting to consider it again, since the butler set up I want will cost almost 20k.
Same here but I’m on my third Pontiac motor in 3,000 miles 🙄. I started over with a virgin 400 put 4 bolt caps on it, forged 4” stroke crank, new rods, pistons etc. if anything happens to this motor, another Pontiac motor will NOT be going in. I have already priced all of the LS stuff out.
I understand your concern... keep in mind, this was mostly my fault. (Well, no one can predict lifter failure, in any make or model engine) But, doing a poor job of cleaning my short block the last time, contributed to this failure. Me not realizing that the PCV was plumbed improperly, also my fault. At least this time, I'll be doing the blue printing of the bearings myself, and of course filming it too. I will never give up on Pontiac power. (Oh, and LS motors have their own issues too) Thanks for the comment!
You're on your third motor?! Crazy. I'm to blame for this last rebuild, and no one can predict component failure in any engine... At least I'll be do it right, from scratch this time. (And, I get to blue print the bearings, which I had someone else do last time) Thanks for sharing your pain... keep with it!
@@FastMonty I get it. I blueprinted mine and had a trusted machinist validate my every move. Some engines are just more susceptible to certain issues and there are a lot of Pontiacs with bearing failures. I have an LS7 in my Z06 and can assure you, that engine has well known problems as well. That said, the bread and butter LS motors seem to be very durable. Not as fancy a youtube channel and all but you can follow my saga on my blog: drivn.com/ride/36790/pontiac-firebird
Thanks! Yeah, I'm sorry too... but, I do get to do some more learning, as I did not do the original bearing blue printing. I'm doing it myself, this time. Thanks for the comment.
Good question, Nellie... Pontiacs don't need 4 bolt mains until you get up into the 700 hp range. Versus a Chevy motor, which require four bolt mains around 450 to 500hp. The reason is the rod/crank angle is more extreme in a Chevy. (Jim Butler himself educated me on that) Hope that helps...
Sucks... looking at the metal embedded in bearings, thought the oil filter would have done a little better job filtering out the metal chunks. I have seen metal chunks from lifter/cam issues “take out” the oil pump, which then caused low oil pressure, low oil pressure then damaged the bearings. The end results are basically the same...engine rebuild time! Be sure to put a magnetic oil plug in your oil pan, would not have prevented or helped with catastrophic damage, but might help with a few “flicks” of metal upon start up of the refresh engine.
Yeah, it does suck, but, I get to do some more learning. :) Agreed about the magnet, I have one on the plug, one on the back of the pan, and one on the filter. Apparently this debris was left over from my last top end rebuild, where I didn't inspect the bearings. Stupid me. Thanks for the comment!
How strange that I stumble on your video as I'm having the same ((LOW OIL PRESSURE) reading on my 68' Firebird. I just rebuilt the motor _ I have less than 60 miles on it. First situation _ the needle was jumping around alot. I thought for sure it was the gauges because the temp/fuel gauges were not accurate. After driving it one day the guages ((miraculously)) started working (fuel/temp) the oil gauge hovered around 40 then slowly started to lose pressure through out the break-in period. For oil, I filled it with Comp Cams Break-In Oil. I'm now having the valve clatter issue and oil gauges reading just over 0 ! Tomorrow I'm going to grab up some penetrating oil and spray up the valves and down the push rod while its running. I'm suspecting that the break-in oil just broke down sooner than I realized and is responsible for making the valves get stuck open from the break in oil that prob was in the motor for too long. I havent driven it much but I think that break in comp cams product isnt as robust as VR1 10W30. Today I changed the oil to the VR1 and it still makes the clacking noise and oil pressure is low. ((((fingers crossed)))) I'm praying to not have to tear it down again as I dont have a garage and will have to do it in my apartment!!! [ Motor _ 400ci _ 30ovr_ comp cams factory muscle cam_ ross racing pistons_ orig.piston rods, comp cams hydraulic lifters - new comp cam springs and push rods with the factory muscle cam kit ] ** when I changed the oil it was jet black ** there wasnt any brass metal particles and it didnt feel sludgy.
Ohhhh mannn... sorry to hear that. Did you test the oil pressure with a Mechanical Gauge? I did a video on that, a couple videos prior to this one. That'll rule out an electrical gauge issue. Other than that, I feel your pain. It's clearly not a bearing issue, unless the bearing clearances are too big. It may well be the oil pump. If any debris gets caught in the pressure relief ball valve, you won't be able to keep consistent pressure, causing the needle to bounce around too... BTW, if you're running a 60 lb pump, 10 lb idle pressure is ok, as long as the pressure increases by 10 lbs per 1000 rpm, and raises quickly when you add throttle, you're fine. (Cruising pressure would be 30 to 40 ish) Good luck, and let me know how it goes...
@@M3Atelier-Initiative Here it is... th-cam.com/video/tHzs1jOCJKo/w-d-xo.html there are two connection points. The easiest for testing, is pulling the sending unit from it's stock location, which should be next to your oil filter. The backup point is near the distributor, but may or may not read the same pressure. Good luck, and let me know...
that sucks could have been a lot worse have a 72 GTO retains its original motor it now has 70 series heads from a 67400 so i could run ram air exhaust manifolds its not a race care just i nice highway cruiser had this car almost 40 years
6:26 Or it could be not enough bearing clearance. I’d be pissed about the whole deal. I know just how you feel cause I lost 3 lobes on my solid lifter cam. Isn’t there a saying, there’s nothing like a Chevy. Hope it all works out, good luck, fingers crossed.
Thanks John... at least I get to do the blue printing of the bearings myself this time. (As someone else did the last set) Of course, I'll be making some other changes, like a Butler pro pump, new intake, new PCV system, including a M/E Wagner adjustable valve, valley pan, etc... it'll be fun. Thanks again for your comments along the way!
As I said in the video, I did a terrible job cleaning after the lifter committed suicide, on the last build. If my last name was Bezos, I wouldn't be here. Thanks.
@@FastMonty Haha just yankin your chain. That must really be a bummer, good luck with the next rebuild. Im having mine done now, got all my parts from Kauffman. Not crazy about them. I guess maybe its the timing, cheers!
@@frekkledipped Yeah, I kinda figured... still wish I had Bezos money though. ha, ha... Kauffman is awesome. Looking forward to hearing your smile, when that's done. see ya!
@@FastMonty I just watched 2 vids on failing flat tappet hyd lifters. They say they are remanufactered. One guy got 3 sets tested them and only one set was OK. Im going to my machinist tommorrow morning get them and test them. Do you have hyd lifters? Most Pontiacs do.
@@frekkledipped Most engines have hydraulic lifters. (Either flat tappet, or Roller). Some upgrade to "Solid" lifters, which require more maintenance to maintain lash, AND are more abusive on the drive chain due to the fact they don't have hydraulics to soften the blow. I find it hard to believe that lifters are "re-manufactured", I do believe that anything coming out of China will have a higher failure rate. That said, it's critically important to clean the lifters from the manufacturing debris, and rust preventative, which acts like glue inside the plunger, if it sits on the shelf too long. I think that's what people are seeing when testing brand new lifters... without cleaning them properly. Just make sure yours get a good cleaning, before installation. Let me know how it goes...
Well, it's not the engine. What happened to me can happen to ANY motor, old, or new. Changes are coming as it relates to the PCV system, which was plumbed improperly from day one. Thanks for watching!
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Pretty gnarly. That's about what my 455 looked like when I tore down. I highly recommend sending it off to Butler to get it bored with their torque plates on. The steel crank and rods I picked up for mine were under $600 total and are tons lighter and stronger than what I had. Those guys did an awesome job cleaning up the castings I sent in and everything is going together easily.
Thanks Brother. It's a little more complicated than that... If I lived in Tennessee, no brainer. However, it's $500 just to send the block to and from California. It's a lot cheaper to machine locally, with torque plates, etc... (I only need honing) I already have the 467 Eagle Rotating Assembly, with Butler/Ross forged pistons from Butler. To send everything back to them is not reasonable, for regrinding and rebalancing. Nor is the 12+ week lead time. :) (They're super busy) I did have to source 4.191" Ross/Butler pistons ... thank god those were in stock. :) Thanks for the comment!
Thanks for the transparency my friend.... No pride just fix it! Waiting to see your next episode. In highschool a neighbor and I got together and bought a 69 GTO at a towing auction for 300.00 bucks.... 1978. It dropped a valve and blown that piston up and the rod tried to cut the block in half! Lol. Knock section of the cam out the exact size of the small end... He bought a Crane cam close to Ram air 4 specs had the other machine work done, put it together in a not so shop, massaged that mother in..... That thing was a beast! That's why I love Pontiacs today, flat torque curve and will rev past the valve springs capabilities.... He blew it up again, should've put dual springs in it.... Lol
Ha! Great story! Yeah, I love my engine too... the torque is amazingly constant. The rebuild will be fun, as usual. Thanks again!
Sorry you are having to do this, but thanks so much for taking the time to document your findings and walk us through the troubleshooting and corrective actions. Very helpful for us non-mechanics!
Ha! Yeah, I'm sorry too... but, not really. As you can tell, I'm not a professional, and I learn from my mistakes. It inspires me to give others confidence in themselves, to work on their own car. Thanks for watching, and for the great comment!
Mike - Once again thanks for the video series, I feel for ya man! Sounds like your luck and my luck both came from the same rabbits foot.
Yeah, live and learn, right? Glad we're in the same boat. Thanks for the comment!
Sad to see this happen to your engine, but I'm excited to see what you are going to do in the upcoming rebuild.
Thanks Paul... yeah, good excuse for more mods. :)
Man that's rough. I can't wait for your videos on the short block build!
Thanks Bryan! Yeah, it'll be fun...
Hurts to see that more machine work is needed. Makes me super nervous about my 455 that sat for over ten years... flushed the fuel system, fresh oil, coolant "looked" good. Fired up with timing totally off, still ran awesome w/70psi oil pressure until it overheated! All the coolant in the block was crystalized, flushed it all out changed oil again and saw a very small amount of shiny in it. I've got an hei to swap in and rebuild the Qjet, fingers crossed...
Yeah, kicking myself for not doing a good job the last time I had the engine out. At least I can upgrade and/or change some parts, like going with a Butler Pro Pump, New Valley pan to solve the PCV issue, in combination with a M/E Wagner adjustable PCV valve. Thanks for sharing your story, I like the plan!
Like You say it pays to be picky when working with any engine, inspect and reinspect ! Good luck 👍
Agreed! Thanks Ferdinand... the rebuild will be fun.
What a PITA. You've spent a small fortune and things are still not right with it. As a long time Pontiac enthusiast, it pains me to see another Pontiac enthusiast have significant engine problems. I truly hope that you're able to straighten out all the issues and get back on the road with your Goat before the summer is over. Good luck.
Thanks Bill... yeah, my fault for rushing that last "lifter swap". I should've done what I'm doing now.. .back then. Ohhh well, living and learning... part of my job. Ha, ha... thanks for the comment! Yes, I will be back on the road for some summer lovin. See ya!
We will get through this! I’ve been chatting with you on ig, my cranks at the machine shop as we speak. You showed different symptoms than me. Mine was clearly oil starvation only. I didn’t have the catastrophic debris from a failed lifter. I am slowly getting it done one piece at a time. Hope it goes well for you poncho brother! Can’t wait for the next video
Ohhh yeah... yes, we will get through this. Ha, ha... glad to hear you're on your way to a fresh start, like me. And, I agree, no need to rush. (I made that mistake last time, which I will not do again) See you soon!
Your videos are so helpful thank you for doing them. I’m building a 400 and each has helped me in one way or another.
Thanks Adrian, I'm glad to hear that. Good luck, and thanks for the comment!
I am in the situation now of a lifter that went bad. Found needle bearings in the oil pan during inspection. So I start the process of getting the motor pulled. I had a few younger guys saying I was over thinking it and to just replace the lifter and cam and be done with it. I just kept on and pulled it to their shrugs. And yes I’m finding bits and pieces all over but it seems I caught it early enough. Wife was on it with telling me it was running rough and started ticking. Moral is that yes don’t skimp pull that motor apart and do it right.
Yeah, Thomas... totally agree. I "Skimped" on my first try, which was a mistake. Thanks for the comment!
It's good you tore it down before it got worse. Made things salvageable. Too bad it will need new positions and a rebuild, but you could have easily trashed the crank or rods or gouged the cylinder walls too deeply. I'd say you dodged a lot of bullets and it will come back better. I think I'd just say it's a 470 when you finish. Good luck with the rebuild!
Welp, 470 it is! ha, ha... yeah, I'm glad I caugt it in time too... as frustrating as it is, this is a great opportunity to do it right, and this time, blue print the bearings myself. Will also make some PCV plumbing changes, which I'll show why... thanks, as always!
@@FastMonty I bought a bore mic and a set of micrometers so I could check clearances on my engine. I could not get repeatable measurements with the bore mic so I relied on the machine shop's measurements instead. Hope you are able to execute the metrology more repeatably than me!
@@thebandit4393 You're gonna love my Rod and Main bearing videos. :) It certainly takes practice.
Sorry to hear that this happened! But if there is one guy who will figure out what's wrong and how to rectify the issue that would you! Looking forward to your next episodes and the rebuild process. I have always thought about building my own motor and now I get to see what's involved.
Thanks Johnny! Yeah, this will be a great tutorial... thanks again.
Great video one good thing the block is still good.
Agreed! Thanks Robert!
Real sorry to hear that, after all that meticulous good work, good news in the bad is that the bore can be cleaned up with a 0.60 overbore. i am on a 455 with a 0.60 overbore now. And i change oil probably more often than needed. full synth with 1200 PPM zinc/phosphorus. All these incidents with roller lifter faliures, makes me scared to make the switch. I wish you all the best on the rebuild, I'll tune in to the next video for sure.
Thanks Stian! Yeah, good news is I can now blue print the bearings myself, where someone else did the last set. As well as some other changes... pro oil pump, new PCV set up, valley pan, etc... it'll be fun. Thanks for the comment!
Is that a crack at 5:33 between the lifter bores? And 6:02 what is that between lifter bore?
Thanks for the heads up... I double checked, they're not cracks, they look like parting lines in the mold. Thanks!
Bummer man, sorry to see that happened.
Thanks Michael. No worries... I get to do the bearing blue printing, myself. Versus trusting someone else. As well as make some more changes. :) Thanks again.
Man Mike, I don't want to sound like a smart ass remark , but it seems if it weren't for BAD luck you wouldn't have any luck at all. Man I am so saddened to see all these things happen to your motor. Nothing but good thoughts moving forward. The Pontiac God's are looking down on you and saying the force is strong with this one.☺🙏 I'm praying no more problems for you . The only bright side to this is your video's are teaching others . THE best of LUCK to you bud.👍👍🍀
Thanks John... it's my own fault, as for the lack of cleaning the debris out the last time. The PCV issue was new to me too... I have changes coming in that regard, and making some other changes too... it'll be fun. Thanks for watching, and commenting!
@@FastMonty I know that all of your followers including me are sorry to see you getting a run of bad luck , but I also know that we all can't wait for the Pontiac Professor to teach our next class on repairs and what not to do.✌☺Keep the great videos rolling.
@@johnkennedy8452 Thanks John... yeah, nothing but learning for me. Ha, ha... Thanks again for the comment!
Good luck on the engine rebuild , you’ve been through it on that motor
Ha! For sure... I should be an expert by the end of this build. Thanks for the comment!
@@FastMonty Learn all you can so I can call on you for advice I have about 4 Pontiac’s to build a 350 389 400 and a 421
@@davidbisnette7673 Ha! After I'm done filming all this stuff, you won't need to call me. :)
@@FastMonty That’s true your videos are really good
@@davidbisnette7673 Thanks David! Much appreciated!
As tough as this is for you, I must say I really enjoyed this video and am looking forward to the rebuild vids 👍😉
Thanks Brother... yeah, I'll be making some more changes along the way... thanks for the comment!
having a garage with a lift is the life saver!
Hell yeah! Mainly a Back saver. Which is why I got it.
Expensive lesson for sure! but if you have not considered it yet i would rebuild or replace the lifters, dissy the heads and re fresh them and if you really wanted to de burr the block inside and out before the machine shop. i am just finishing up my build and have used Butler, KRE and nightmare performance all have been great to deal with along with summit.
Thanks Steven... yeah, I had the heads torn apart, cleaned, and valve job. Great idea about de burring the flashing on the inside... unfortunately, I'm past that step. I can still do most of the outside. Thanks again for the comment!
Damn it, man. It sucks when this happens, but at least it didn't get completely cratered before you figured it out.
Ain't that the truth... can I get to add some cubes... ha, ha... thanks for the comment!
@@FastMonty I'm about to build a 412 for my '66 with #16 heads, and this will be my first Poncho build. Coming from big blocks and LS's, it should be interesting.
@@ctg288 Ha! You have way more experience than I do... you'll be fine! (Although you may want to check out my head cooling trick, to give you some ideas) th-cam.com/video/DWvVkrGQDsw/w-d-xo.html Have fun!
@@FastMonty I watched that whole series already, but I'll definitely revisit it when i get into my build.
Hey Monty, good vid as usual !
Sorry to see a damn aftermarket lifter causing this. You are moving forward with it and for the better, good work !
I am about to start a 461 build for my 70, and i am considering using LS hyd roller lifters. Many are going down this route now as they’e been super reliable for the LS boys and they actually fit our pontiacs.
Thanks Brother... Yeah, if you go with the LS lifters, make sure the oil band is in the right place, and get one of those "anti-rotate" plates that bolts into the valley. Sorry, the name escapes me, but looks like a great idea. See you next week!
I think there is a crack on cylinder 1 from the cylinder to lifter journal. Dont know your valve train setup, but highly recommend Johnson lifters and Smithbrothers pushrods.
Thanks Matt, I'll check for the crack... yes, I'm now using Johnson Lifters, with Butler spec'd push rods. Thanks again for the comment.
Aww bro, that's a bummer. Butler built my short block now all I have to worried about is the top end that I assembled lol
Yeah, big bummer... my fault. Oh well, moving on, and doing it right. Great to hear you got the short block from Butler, a ton of work goes into making it perfect. I'm sure you're fine on the rest... just make sure you PCV system is perfect. I have a video coming soon about that. (That was half my problem originally) Thanks Marcus!
@@FastMonty thanks Monty, I really liked your video on the water ports on the back of the heads the way you connected them with AN lines. I really want to get on that soon
@@sampson7941 thanks Marcus... bare minimum, using standard heater hose will work. If you go the AN route, it takes some patience. Especially if you're doing it in your engine. Send me an email, or hit me up on Instagram and I'll send you a picture of the latest configuration. Thanks for the comment!
@@FastMonty Magicmarc30s@gmail.com
Great video man it’s unfortunate to go through the damage but it is entertaining and very helpful so thanks for your effort can’t wait for the next vid 😜
Thanks! Yeah, gives me an excuse to make some more changes too. Thanks for the comment!
lucky you caught it when you did, still sucks. looking forward to the rebuild videos.
Thanks Richard! It does suck, but gives me the opportunity to makes some changes. :) Thanks for the support.
What lifters were you using?
Lunati. Went to Johnson, thanks!
That stinks! Rod clearence is a little big. Super dutys were .0025 rods .003 mains Hope to see it back together soon 👍
Agreed. Now I get to blue print the bearings myself.. I had someone else do the last build. Thanks for the comment!
Do you have access to a tuner with an engine Dyno. If you are in CA I know westech is somewhere in CA. food for thought. It may be expensive to get done, but at least it will be tuned, and tested so you won't have to pull the engine again.
Thanks Rick... this engine was dyno'd. Testing and tuning an engine before installation will not predict oil starvation or premature failure of an internal component, like a lifter, in my case. Thanks for the comment!
@@FastMonty that's awesome if you Dyno it again we'd love to see that. Sucks that it scorched a bearing, but at least you caught it before it spun. That always sucks. I do remember that pontiac engines were notorious for frying bearing because of the large clearances.
@@efssurplusfunds I still have to get to FiTech for some Dyno tuning... so, that'll be fun. (After my break in period, of course) Yeah, I'll be covering the bearing clearances in this rebuild. Thanks again for the support.
That sucks I will be sure to make sure my PCV is plumbed correctly when my engine gets rebuilt. I am sticking with the 400 not going to go with the stroker. Just round port e head roller cam and air ram restoration manifolds with a forged bottom end
Yeah, Brian, it sucks... but, I now get to do the bearing blue printing myself, as I didn't do the last build. I'm also making more changes to the PCV system, and valley pan, you're going to like that. BTW, it's ok to go with a stroker, and 0.030" over. (That converts it to a 455, but with a 3" main journal. Consider it.
@@FastMonty I will go with the stroke next time I get it built I need to replace the 8.2 before I jack up the tq and there too many other things that need attention now however if the crank(previous owner put a forged one in)is bad I will get it stroked and pray for my 8.2
@@brianmartin1133 Ha! I know the feeling... one thing at a time. Keep at it!
well, you pretty much found what you expected to see (other than the broke piston) you know from the view here, it looked as though the lifter bore of the one the let go, has a ridge down at the bottom? do any others have that ridge? mabey it was just the camera angle. was that lifter scored in any way? might want to run a bore gauge to check if anything funny going on there also. Really sorry for your troubles there Monty. Well, at least you'll will have piece of mind once ya get'r put back together. Looking forward to the progress.
Thanks Rickey! I'll double check that bore... it was scored the last time, and I had to delicately hone it out. At least that score was below the oil band, so there's nothing to "catch on". Thanks for the comment!
Beautiful don't you just love the Pontiac 400 ? Mine seized up
Actually, yes, I do. Why did yours seize?
@@FastMonty my rear main seal busted and insufficient oil pressure loss caused my crankshaft to break a bearing.
@@tanner8288 ahhh, bummer. Rear mains typically blow because of a poor PCV system. (Just learned that with my intensive research on my PCV issue) When I put the crank back in, I'll be showing off the one piece rear main seal from BOP. Keep at it!
@@FastMonty BOP is making one piece seals now?
@@SidewaysTA Yup... check it out... www.bopengineering.com/beltdrive_acc_topend.shtml
As much as I enjoy following your journey with the Pontiac motor, the process is giving me a little bit of anxiety that’s also making a stronger case for an LS swap in mine. I was completely opposed to doing an LS swap in my 69 GTO at first. I’m starting to consider it again, since the butler set up I want will cost almost 20k.
Same here but I’m on my third Pontiac motor in 3,000 miles 🙄. I started over with a virgin 400 put 4 bolt caps on it, forged 4” stroke crank, new rods, pistons etc. if anything happens to this motor, another Pontiac motor will NOT be going in. I have already priced all of the LS stuff out.
I understand your concern... keep in mind, this was mostly my fault. (Well, no one can predict lifter failure, in any make or model engine) But, doing a poor job of cleaning my short block the last time, contributed to this failure. Me not realizing that the PCV was plumbed improperly, also my fault. At least this time, I'll be doing the blue printing of the bearings myself, and of course filming it too. I will never give up on Pontiac power. (Oh, and LS motors have their own issues too) Thanks for the comment!
You're on your third motor?! Crazy. I'm to blame for this last rebuild, and no one can predict component failure in any engine... At least I'll be do it right, from scratch this time. (And, I get to blue print the bearings, which I had someone else do last time) Thanks for sharing your pain... keep with it!
@@FastMonty I get it. I blueprinted mine and had a trusted machinist validate my every move. Some engines are just more susceptible to certain issues and there are a lot of Pontiacs with bearing failures. I have an LS7 in my Z06 and can assure you, that engine has well known problems as well. That said, the bread and butter LS motors seem to be very durable. Not as fancy a youtube channel and all but you can follow my saga on my blog: drivn.com/ride/36790/pontiac-firebird
@@stevebrown6175 Yep, crazy hobby we picked, eh? Ha, ha... I'll check out your blog. Thanks again for commenting.
Like the time lapse and music. It looks like you were moving to the music. Sorry you have to go through this.
Thanks! Yeah, I'm sorry too... but, I do get to do some more learning, as I did not do the original bearing blue printing. I'm doing it myself, this time. Thanks for the comment.
why did'nt you go with a 4 bolt main block ?
Good question, Nellie... Pontiacs don't need 4 bolt mains until you get up into the 700 hp range. Versus a Chevy motor, which require four bolt mains around 450 to 500hp. The reason is the rod/crank angle is more extreme in a Chevy. (Jim Butler himself educated me on that) Hope that helps...
Sucks... looking at the metal embedded in bearings, thought the oil filter would have done a little better job filtering out the metal chunks. I have seen metal chunks from lifter/cam issues “take out” the oil pump, which then caused low oil pressure, low oil pressure then damaged the bearings. The end results are basically the same...engine rebuild time! Be sure to put a magnetic oil plug in your oil pan, would not have prevented or helped with catastrophic damage, but might help with a few “flicks” of metal upon start up of the refresh engine.
Yeah, it does suck, but, I get to do some more learning. :) Agreed about the magnet, I have one on the plug, one on the back of the pan, and one on the filter. Apparently this debris was left over from my last top end rebuild, where I didn't inspect the bearings. Stupid me. Thanks for the comment!
Will you be going one size up one cam
Keeping the same cam... might change my intake, and color. :) Thanks!
I am using the cam u have upgrading to a Torker II. 373 rear 4L80E trans
@@andrer3854 Nice! That'll be fun!
How strange that I stumble on your video as I'm having the same ((LOW OIL PRESSURE) reading on my 68' Firebird. I just rebuilt the motor _ I have less than 60 miles on it. First situation _ the needle was jumping around alot. I thought for sure it was the gauges because the temp/fuel gauges were not accurate. After driving it one day the guages ((miraculously)) started working (fuel/temp) the oil gauge hovered around 40 then slowly started to lose pressure through out the break-in period. For oil, I filled it with Comp Cams Break-In Oil. I'm now having the valve clatter issue and oil gauges reading just over 0 ! Tomorrow I'm going to grab up some penetrating oil and spray up the valves and down the push rod while its running. I'm suspecting that the break-in oil just broke down sooner than I realized and is responsible for making the valves get stuck open from the break in oil that prob was in the motor for too long. I havent driven it much but I think that break in comp cams product isnt as robust as VR1 10W30. Today I changed the oil to the VR1 and it still makes the clacking noise and oil pressure is low. ((((fingers crossed)))) I'm praying to not have to tear it down again as I dont have a garage and will have to do it in my apartment!!! [ Motor _ 400ci _ 30ovr_ comp cams factory muscle cam_ ross racing pistons_ orig.piston rods, comp cams hydraulic lifters - new comp cam springs and push rods with the factory muscle cam kit ] ** when I changed the oil it was jet black ** there wasnt any brass metal particles and it didnt feel sludgy.
Ohhhh mannn... sorry to hear that. Did you test the oil pressure with a Mechanical Gauge? I did a video on that, a couple videos prior to this one. That'll rule out an electrical gauge issue. Other than that, I feel your pain. It's clearly not a bearing issue, unless the bearing clearances are too big. It may well be the oil pump. If any debris gets caught in the pressure relief ball valve, you won't be able to keep consistent pressure, causing the needle to bounce around too... BTW, if you're running a 60 lb pump, 10 lb idle pressure is ok, as long as the pressure increases by 10 lbs per 1000 rpm, and raises quickly when you add throttle, you're fine. (Cruising pressure would be 30 to 40 ish) Good luck, and let me know how it goes...
@@FastMonty I'll look for that video. I believe the connection hole is near the distributer. great channel (btw).
@@M3Atelier-Initiative Here it is... th-cam.com/video/tHzs1jOCJKo/w-d-xo.html there are two connection points. The easiest for testing, is pulling the sending unit from it's stock location, which should be next to your oil filter. The backup point is near the distributor, but may or may not read the same pressure. Good luck, and let me know...
that sucks could have been a lot worse have a 72 GTO retains its original motor it now has 70 series heads from a 67400 so i could run ram air exhaust manifolds its not a race care just i nice highway cruiser had this car almost 40 years
Totally agree... coulda been way worse. Great to hear you're keeping Pontiac alive ... one car at a time. Thanks again.
6:26 Or it could be not enough bearing clearance. I’d be pissed about the whole deal. I know just how you feel cause I lost 3 lobes on my solid lifter cam. Isn’t there a saying, there’s nothing like a Chevy. Hope it all works out, good luck, fingers crossed.
Thanks John... at least I get to do the blue printing of the bearings myself this time. (As someone else did the last set) Of course, I'll be making some other changes, like a Butler pro pump, new intake, new PCV system, including a M/E Wagner adjustable valve, valley pan, etc... it'll be fun. Thanks again for your comments along the way!
469? Are you sure you don't want to step it up to a 474 or a 494? :-) Seriously though, so Butler is not doing the machining on the block Mike?
Ha! I would love Butler to do my machine work... but, they're back log is over a year!
@@FastMonty Yeah I figured that was the case.
Looked like a crack in between lifter bores .. could be wrong
I'll check... thanks!
So how many times and how long a period of time have you rebuilt your engine? Is your last name Bezos?
As I said in the video, I did a terrible job cleaning after the lifter committed suicide, on the last build. If my last name was Bezos, I wouldn't be here. Thanks.
@@FastMonty Haha just yankin your chain. That must really be a bummer, good luck with the next rebuild. Im having mine done now, got all my parts from Kauffman. Not crazy about them. I guess maybe its the timing, cheers!
@@frekkledipped Yeah, I kinda figured... still wish I had Bezos money though. ha, ha... Kauffman is awesome. Looking forward to hearing your smile, when that's done. see ya!
@@FastMonty I just watched 2 vids on failing flat tappet hyd lifters. They say they are remanufactered. One guy got 3 sets tested them and only one set was OK. Im going to my machinist tommorrow morning get them and test them. Do you have hyd lifters? Most Pontiacs do.
@@frekkledipped Most engines have hydraulic lifters. (Either flat tappet, or Roller). Some upgrade to "Solid" lifters, which require more maintenance to maintain lash, AND are more abusive on the drive chain due to the fact they don't have hydraulics to soften the blow. I find it hard to believe that lifters are "re-manufactured", I do believe that anything coming out of China will have a higher failure rate. That said, it's critically important to clean the lifters from the manufacturing debris, and rust preventative, which acts like glue inside the plunger, if it sits on the shelf too long. I think that's what people are seeing when testing brand new lifters... without cleaning them properly. Just make sure yours get a good cleaning, before installation. Let me know how it goes...
As much as I love my Pontiac 400 I am starting to see just how problematic this engine is. And thus possibly a engine swap.
Well, it's not the engine. What happened to me can happen to ANY motor, old, or new. Changes are coming as it relates to the PCV system, which was plumbed improperly from day one. Thanks for watching!