Pontiac Head Cooling Trick - Heater Hose Myth?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 ต.ค. 2021
- Does adding a heater hose to both heads help the engine's temperature? I'm not sure... After installing a Mechanical Temp gauge, I noticed I'm running way too hot. Why is that? Am I getting too much hot coolant recycling through my timing cover, back into the engine? I sure am! Lets discuss why.
In this episode, "Pontiac Head Cooling Trick - Heater Hose Myth?, I'll diagram the Pontiac Water Flow, and what I did to help it... or, did I hurt it? We shall see! Enjoy!
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Oh my god this worked for me! I have a 1973 Formula 455 Pontiac with Edelbrock heads, and had T-ed the heater returns together to even up head cooling. But my car has always run hot 200 plus, especially when idling. I was to the point of not driving it any where, due to fear of it overheating. I just installed a $13 ball valve from Amazon in the heater return line with the valve about 1/4 open, and now my car is idling at 180 degrees on a 90 degree day. Monty thank you so much for coming up with this tip. Cheers!
That's awesome! Have you seen my latest video on this subject?? Might want to check it out... it will help even further. th-cam.com/video/v_qUY4E33r0/w-d-xo.html Thanks again for the comment!
This, 'trick" is something I shared in The 421 Club magazine 35 years ago.
Great to hear it's been around, for a long, long time. Thanks!
Awesome vid! Now I know how others feel watching me do stuff 'cause I'm OCD and I appreciate the hell outta this kind of work! Thank you, learned a lot today ✌
Thanks again Scott! My part 2 is even more eye opening... th-cam.com/video/v_qUY4E33r0/w-d-xo.html
I'm not a huge motor guy, but this was a very informative and transparent explanation of how water flows through engine heads for cooling. Super well done, thank you for the schooling Monty.
Thanks for that... yeah, just me trying to learn how it works too. I will eventually have a follow up episode to this one where I'm going to plumb it into the radiator. Thanks for the comment!
Great information here. There is not too much info out there on these old Pontiac engines. Thank you
Welcome... I'm not an expert, yet. But, I'm getting there... ha, ha... Thanks for the comment!
Been eagerly awaiting this video. Great work Mike!
Thanks! One of my more painful to video, videos. Definitely a learning experience. Thanks again!
Brilliant idea about the adjustable valve Mike. I used to run the bypass liness on my Pontiac as well.
Good to know... thanks!
Mike, another great video. Thank you. Run the heater core outlet back to the intake manifold crossover. The hot water will go thru the radiator before going to the motor.
I love it. Thanks!
That won't flow because the pressure is equal. Must go from a higher pressure to a lower pressure to flow.
Hello FMG, I just finished plumbing my cross over on a 471 Pontiac using Edelbrock D-Port heads. Here is a list of parts I used:
2- 3/4” male NPT to 8AN male adapters. They screw into the heads on either rear port. This is the beginning of AN.
2- 8AN Female 90 degree swivels. One goes directly on the left head adapter. This puts the hose side coming out to the left of the distributor. The other one will be used on the right side. That’s all the hardware for the left side.
1- Female to 8AN Male Flare 90 Degree Swivel Hose Fitting. Attaches to the right side adapter. Position so it points to the rear of the engine past the right side of the distributor.
1- 8AN T fitting, single female, double male. Female side attaches to the fitting above. Angle the stem of the T about 45 degrees.
Now attach the other 8AN Female 90 degree swivel to the end of the T. This will have the hose end making a nice turn around the back of the distributor.
1- 8AN 45 degree female. Attaches to the other male portion of the T and should point towards the heater input.
5 feet 8AN hose. Cut to length to connect the left and right sides together behind the distributor. Cut another length to connect the 45 degree swivel to the heater.
1- 8AN hose finisher clamp.
That should be all the hardware needed to fab the crossover and connect to the heater.
You will also need another 5 feet of 10AN hose to connect the heater to the timing cover along with 2 -10AN hose finisher clamps.
Hope this helps.
Awesome Summary! Now you need to watch my latest cooling analysis, which will give you some more ideas... th-cam.com/video/v_qUY4E33r0/w-d-xo.html
Was just considering how to add an outlet to the rear of the drivers side head and remembered that you had addressed the issue but couldn't recall the details. So, thanks for the details!! Well worth a second and 3rd watch.
I have a factory AC car and still run the heater. Trying to wrap my head around a way to keep the heater core supplied, add an outlet to the left head and also re route the outlets from the heads to the crossover up front so that it's all controlled by the thermostat. Seems like that would be a little tricky and maybe not look that great. I guess theoretically you could route the heater return to the cross over and the return from the left head to the cross over, then eliminate the old heater return to the pump. Practically, not sure if or how it would work with regard to actually running hoses etc. Great work with the videos, greatly appreciated and motivating!
Great question... before proceeding, check out my latest version of this trick, here; th-cam.com/video/v_qUY4E33r0/w-d-xo.html After watching that, and you're still game. I'd Tee of both heads, and run that to the heater core inlet. (Keep in mind, I don't recall if there's a valve that turns the heater core inlet on and off, based on A/C input, so you need to research that) If the heater core flows all the time, then you can run the return line to the crossover like I did in the newest video. Hope that helps!
@@FastMonty lol, how the hell did I miss that!! Thanks for the link. With running a heater core/heater system this seems to be the way to go. For best cooling efficiency it's probably best to come off each head and back to the cross over, but some folks gotta have heat! I may be pulling my engine for a rebuild in the next year or two, this will definitely be on the punch list of to-do items!
@@kevinw6282 Good call, much easier with the engine out. AND, if you want to use A/C you can get creative with a three way valve. Anyway, happy wrenching!
stainless in n out hoses, restricter ring, gutted thermo for 160 degrees, mechanical clutch fan. no issues, I also suggest block filler to casting plugs. if you need more one large elec. fan on front with manual switch-done.
Nice! This is more about keeping temps the same from front to rear.... here's my latest solution. th-cam.com/video/v_qUY4E33r0/w-d-xo.html Thanks!
also fitting an anti cavitation coil spring inside the lower hose to prevent it (the hose) from collapsing partly closed when the motor accelerates in rpms. last dyno video i watched, the lower hose closing itself close was very noticeable
Great point... not many people are aware of that phenomenon. (My lower hose is an AN hose, so that won't happen) But, a great tip for everyone reading this, most mechanics forget to re-install that coil, and then wonder why the engine won't cool down like it used to. Thanks again!
Great video Mike. I going to experiment this theory on my 455 when we finish breaking her in
Awesome, keep me posted!
Great video, very informative.
Thanks Pat! Stay tuned as Part 2 of this video is coming soon. Thanks for the comment!
Great info. Love your video's.
Thanks! Much appreciated!
Great video Mike, Thanks. I like the shirt.
Ha, ha... thanks!
As a side note: flowing unrestricted coolant into the heater core may cause issues with the core itself. It was not designed to handle pressure and volume of the unrestricted load it’s seeing.
Pontiac had some warranty issues w/ the cores back in the 60’s. I’m thinking that’s why one of the core tubes is crimped and why PMD has a restriction in the head fitting.
Good point... one may never know... ha, ha... I have a bypass valve in front of my heater core, which isn't being used. I'm leaning towards testing the pressure of different access points, ie the AN Cross over trick mentioned earlier. Makes me wonder if there's enough pressure to overcome the pressure in the crossover. Gonna have to noodle that one for a bit. Thanks for the comment!
Just found your channel and subscribed. I have a Butler top end on my 462. I also have FiTech with timing control. Looking forward to checking out your vids.
Welcome Steve! Nice to see we have similar top ends, including the FiTech system. If you see something, say something... ha, ha. See ya!
@@FastMontyThanks! What do you know about multi port injection from FiTech? I used the Edelbrock multi port intake back in the early 2000’s using Mega Squirt. Sold the car. I would like to use multi port injection again.
@@steveh1256 Good question... I don't know enough, yet. But, it is installed. :) My plan is to dyno the current FiTech throttle body, then switch over to port injection. Here's the video where I switched manifolds, and hinted at the port injection ports. th-cam.com/video/ew0MYYZrpMQ/w-d-xo.html Enjoy, and stay tuned!
Hey Mike, if your GTO came with factory a/c, there was a vacuum operated valve that controls the coolant flow thru the heater core. Flow was interrupted when the valve was closed.
Thanks Jeff! Great to know!
Great video, and you're using aluminum heads so the motor should cool down quicker than a stock iron head. When my 455 was together, I had that port in the back of the passenger side head blocked off also on the timing cover so water flow just went through the engine with cast iron heads. In summertime heat in traffic no problem, cuz I like I told you before ran the fan on the motor and also electric fan in front of radiator for constant airflow. Keep the videos coming, enjoying.
Thanks for sharing, Steven!
A lot of the '60's and '70's non-AC cars had full flow through the core all the time and a diverter door or flap to direct the fresh air over the core. It was simple and cheap. The restrictor is to ensure the coolant spends enough time in the core to throw off the heat. Without the heater blower fan running both heads should be about the same. BTW, a ball valve is designed to be either fully opened or fully closed. It's not meant to be a flow regulator. Eventually the ball will erode from the flow and it won't seal. You need either a restrictor or a different valve.
There's more complexity to localized head temperature than trying make sure it's all homogenous. In the late '60's-early '70's manufacturers deliberately restricted coolant from the heads to control emissions like N2O by increasing combustion temperatures. Some of the gaskets had restricted holes for the coolant passages. If you increase head temps and combustion temps BSFC decreases and efficiency increases. NOx however will increase slightly.
Agreed. Thanks Vince. But, both head temps are not the same, if you're flowing coolant out the back of one head. Which I proved. Thanks for the comment!
Thk for Good Video , I did not know that gone up like that
Welcome! Hope it helps!
I really like your videos. I found you looking for how a FiTech EFI works on a similar engine. I have a 70' GS455 Buick with aluminum heads, 4 speed. I haven't purchased an EFI system yet but I'm doing my homework. I'm curious about the future video about an issue, but overall how do you like it? The Holley Xflow, and MSD atomic 2 are the others I'm considering. You do an awesome job on video quality, explaining everything, and like most of us we don't know everything, but you ask and learn. Very nice car by the way.👍
Thanks Big D... I love the FiTech system. Granted I don't have experience with Holley or MSD, so I'm pretty sure you'll like any of them. If you've seen my FiTech playlist... I was the most excited about how the engine NEVER stalls, even when cold. Not sure if you have that issue, but that would drive me nuts with my Carb. Starting is awesome too... more on that issue I found, next week! Feel free to ask questions, any time. See ya!
Great information
When i rebuilt my 75 400 ci Pontiac Trans Am i filled out all the water jackets that were not open on the smog heads and ran a 160 gel operated thermostat and it ran 110 to 120 degrees consistently at idle it would be 145 to 150 degrees with the fan clutch deleted and a 2 inch fan spacer which is really important to have the correct spacer for the fan near the fan shroud ✌😎👍
You can also run too cool for efficiencies sake.
@@superduty4556 yes but my car was running awesome and i wish i still had it, i sold it out of necessity and i know i did the right thing. I needed money for my Mom God Bless Her b Soul 🙏
Wow, that's ice cold. ha, ha... good tips with the fan shroud.
@@FastMonty i really enjoy watching your videos
@@asmdjjkg5830 Great to hear! Thanks for being a part of the channel.
Really enjoying your excellent videos and love the things you've done with your beautiful car. On my '69 Firebird I have eliminated my heater core and am looking for a way to "plug" the 3/4" outlet from the water pump in an attractive way (prefer not to use a piece of hose with a big screw in it) that will last. I have all AN hoses under the hood now and want it to look nice. Are you aware of a way to do it without running a hose between the timing cover and back of the head? Thanks for any advice!
Thanks Steve! Well... the harder way to do it, is to weld on a nipple. Which is what I did, during my Lower AN Hose video. That was a Pain. But, you can't see it now that I've done this crazy mod, that you might consider... th-cam.com/video/v_qUY4E33r0/w-d-xo.html but running underneath the intake manifold to the cross over. Which is also a lot of work... Hope it gives you some ideas.
The best thing I ever did was tee the back 2 ports off and run them to the discharge hose this made a huge difference in cooling in my blown car. My car is a pro street setup. It has a Kauffman 505 with a 871 blower on top so this is kind of a different use but it made 30 degrees difference then running it back to the front cover. I believe this is because you are running preheated water back into the motor without ever cooling it.
Awesome Rick... jealous of your motor. Yeah, I agree, I'm going to experiment with running it back to the radiator. Should be another fun experiment. Thanks for the comment!
Mike. I’m about to turn on my 455 on a 67 GTO. Thanks for the videos. Great information. How did you install the AN fittings on the back of the heads. I have cast iron heads. Is there a AN pressure fitting that presses in similar to a freeze plug. I’m interested in applying this to my GTO.
Congrats Richard! With Iron heads, you'll need to use the standard heater nipple. The driver side head has a freeze plug you'll need to remove. Use nipples that have the restrictors built in... Then you'll need to find a molded 5/8" heater hose to make the sharp bends. (AN fittings are a pain to get right, so, you're better off with rubber hose) Then run that to the cross over, like I did in my second iteration of this video, here... th-cam.com/video/v_qUY4E33r0/w-d-xo.html Have fun!
Seems like running with the factory restrictions on the hose bibs is the same as 3/4 open on your test. Also an idea I had was instead of going back to timing cover have a metal line going back to the trunk with a heater core and a blower motor and conveniently pipe it out that hole in the trunk that I have. Lots of time for it to cool off before it goes back in. You may not even have to run the motor. Your thoughts.
Welp, I'm sure the more heat exchangers, the merrier. :)
There was some discussion on the PY site about how Pontiac experimented with using coolant in the intake instead of the exhaust cross over. I found that very interesting, especially if you have ever had to deal with gas boiling in the carb making it hard to start.
Your testing reminded me of that. Plumb off the back to the underside of the intake and then to the front cross over. It would take some work to seal up the intake correctly.
Yeah, definitely getting coolant back to the front cross over is a great idea. I might just skip that step and plumb the return directly into the radiator. :) Definitely worth another experimental video. Thanks Ryan!
@@FastMontyfirst thing I thought when I was watching the last video. Why wouldn’t you just enter the rad near the top nicely below the filler cap. The purpose is to lower your coolant temp then this makes sense to me. I love opening the left side head and regulating everything. This is certainly nothing I dreamed up but was common on quite a lot of vehicles. Out into heater out to rad. As for heater core flow Some are wide open two sizes of fittings create a restriction of some sort. I’ve seen restrictors in the fittings.
My mind is mushy now but a quick example straight to rad were gm a and b body 80?/89.
@@jimrudolph1582 yeah, lots of good ideas... here's what I ended up doing. th-cam.com/video/v_qUY4E33r0/w-d-xo.html Enjoy!
Mike
Interesting to see how the electric WP will work. I will be sure to install a valve on the heater feed line.
Me too Brian... yeah, that valve isn't required, but good to have just in case you run into my issue. Thanks again!
You ever ran electric water pump curious to see how it worked out
I run lines from the back of each of my KRE heads, AN fittings, to the intake crossover. Since I live in central Florida no real need for a heater. So I just block off that fitting on the timing chain cover. Works well.
Good stuff. Thanks Mark!
Makes sense- you’re using the water pump’s suction to pull the hot coolant from the rear of the heads(hottest part) through the crossover, t-stat, and radiator… so the coolant is truly being cooled vs. feeding hot coolant into ‘cooled’ coolant.
@@CrawdaddyCustoms Agreed. Might be another video... ha, ha..
I came to suggest the same. The issue was introducing hot coolant back into the engine rather than sending it straight to the radiator
@@rustycarter2091 Thanks Rusty... totally agree. Next experiment, I'm going to add a nipple to the radiator, and plumb directly to that. We'll see!
Different GM Models had Cable or Solenoid Actuated Heater Valves that were built into the Main Heater Controls. You have to look it up per application to confirm how that model came equipped. It was kind of like the Power Steering Filters they put in for awhile. Some Mechanics would not know they were there or what they were and bypass or miss them with regular maintenance service intervals and then they would clog causing a problem. The heater valve would corrode and freeze up either opened, closed or part way. So GM stopped installing many of them. Plus the cost was more justified is More Expensive Lines of Car like Oldsmobile and Cadillac because those cars were more frequently Serviced by the Dealership. I never use the OEM Style Heater Hose Nipple on the back of the head because many times the Heater Hose cut at it's Original length has to tight a radius in the curve from the nipple to the fire wall and is very vunerable to kinking or excessive internal wear that can cause a Hose Burst and Spray Alcohol Based Coolant directly on or up and under the Distributor Cap causing at the very least a Very Least a Complete Engine Stall but possibly a Fire depending on what concentration and type of Coolant You are using. It is Best to use either a Long Radius Sweeping Curved AN Fitting, Fabricate a Stainless Steel Long Raduis Pipe/Tube section or a Large Brass/ Stainless 90 degree Elbow for strength. Interesting video. Thanks.
Thanks for sharing... Love it when manufacturers change their SOP, and don't tell anyone else. ha, ha... thanks again!
You have the right idea mike. But you should run your a.n. Lines from the rear of the heads to the intake crossover. That way they will be restricted by the thermostat as intended. Not pumping hot water back into the engine. I drilled and tapped mine on the back side of the crossover which should be no problem since you already split it from the intake. I ran the lines under the intake. This makes coolant flow the same front to rear
I wasn’t running a heater core though.
This is the way to go, the hot water goes back thru the radiator before going to the motor. No Heater this way though. I guess you could go through the heater then to the crossover.
Thanks Darren! That's awesome. Might have to implement something like that for Rev 3.0 ha, ha... thanks for sharing!
@@danw.8180 I like it! Thanks!
I did the crossover on my pontiac motor after watching your video. I also have the edelbrock heads. I have noticed my car takes longer to heat up. I have no problems with it running warmer though. My question to u is what water pump are u running. Do u have the stock style with the cast iron impeller or do u have the newer style that looks like a flex fan. Also did u massage your metal plate that fits behind your water pump to fit your impeller.
Great to hear... yeah, Aluminum heads take longer to heat up. Glad you're not running hot. I have a Flow Kooler pump, so the plate is "pre-massaged".
My brother is currently restoring a 67 goat, that I'm helping with, I'll let him know very good info and testing method! I usually run my 60's engines with a 160 thermostat, and I know that's a bit cool. But, for fuel injection learn to function it needs to be over 160 for that to function. So I'll be running 180 thermostat, and adjusting the fans accordingly. The lower the temp you run, the longer things last and a cooler/denser air/fuel charge. So more power, as long as you are not too cold, for the engine to run clean. But, ya thanks very helpful info, even for sb chevys that have aftermarket manifolds with a rear crossover coolant setup!
Thanks Mark! Yeah, I have a 165 thermostat currently. But, it won't get that low unless I'm going 80mph, with 65 degree ambient outside. lol. Agreed about using a higher temp for Fuel Injection. Thanks for the comment!
@@FastMonty Ya, I was guessing that you were running a 180. With your highway temps being about that. But that means something is wrong in your cooling system. If you have a 165 thermostat, that's what it should run at most all the time when you are warmed up! Just guessing try lowering the temps that your fans come on and off at. Especially at speeds below 40 mph. Let me know after you try that, then we can go into other solutions.
@@FastMonty At over 60mph your fans really shouldn't matter even with the a/c on running 134a refrigerant.
Have you considered maybe running a small AN line from the back of the head to the drilled and tapped lines in the water crossover? That is what I have been considering.
Good comment Jake. Yeah, a couple other guys mentioned that's exactly what they do. I think my next endeavor is to run the heater hose back to the radiator. (ie, I need to weld in a nipple) Stay tuned for that test.
This is interesting, as we all know Pontiacs have major cooling issues and I did not know the bottom hose needs to be smaller than the top one. Im glad I havent installed the ANs, yet. Ive watched other vids and they state to getyour divider plates as close to the wp body as possible which I did to .001, approximately. I did notice the crossover in the rear of your engine when I was watching the intake vid you did and was wondering what it was for, now I know. I havent seen you do the install for that do you have a vid for that? My engine still isnt put together theres been several issues, had to order custom pistons and its taking months.
Thanks for all kid
Yeah, the hoses can be the same, I think I was referring to modern cooling systems, in my head anyway. That rear cross over is here... th-cam.com/video/DWvVkrGQDsw/w-d-xo.html Good job on your water pump divider plate. Flowkooler plates come that way. Thanks again!
Great coverage on the head cooling issue, one thought on the use of a ball valve is ball valves are "NOT" normally a good source for throttling. For test purposes a cable operated heater control valve has a tapered plug that gives you better control (cv pressure drop across the valve). I used your application and a different valve works great.
Fantastic point Mark... I think I was just wrapped around using a valve that had AN fittings... you know, cuz I'm addicted to them. Anyway, have you seen my latest video on this subject? It's a level up... th-cam.com/video/v_qUY4E33r0/w-d-xo.html Thanks again!
@@FastMonty yes I have seen your latest and as far as AN fittings they are perfect but I'm semi retired and go for cheap and street able daily driver! The end game is what ever works for your budget.
@@markcollins457 Agreed! Thanks Mark, and have fun!
got me thinking, your only just cracking open the valve to get the best results...why not just tee them together like you did and then just add a 5/8's in line Flow Restrictor, like ford uses to protect their htr cores, any way, it makes sense to flow from both heads, there's also a kit we can install that plumbs the rear heads to a Flow Restrictor housing where the thermostat goes, that piece would allow hot water from heads to go strait back to the radiator. I'm going to try the in line flow restrictor, seems to be the cleanest most economical way to go.I'm not having heating issues, just want to better protect the driver side head
Good stuff John... yeah, I went with a ball valve on purpose, to play with the settings. But, a flow restrictor would be perfect. Thanks for the comment! There will be more on this topics... I'm not done, yet. :)
Here's another thought, we may see even better results using a y-pipe to the upper radiator hose so it cools before re entering the engine.
www.universalpartsinc.com/shopping/productDetails.aspx?i=1104591&c=0
@@johnb2140 Yup! Totally agree. I'll be doing something similar, and then documenting the change in temps, if any... lol We'll see!
@@FastMonty sounds good 👌
I wonder if the nipple and heater hose on the driver side head was a larger i.d. to provide more flow would help equalize the head temps ??? Just a thought for you. Also I Would think Aluminum head's would dissipate heat faster than iron head's. Great video topic Mike good luck. Could not help but pick up on the Dazed and Confused lingo, HA😝👍Al right all right. I've also heard of a product called water cooler coolent additive. Might be worth checking out.
Not so sure about changing nipple sizes... it seems, based on the comments, some cars actually have heater valves that open only when the heater is on. So, those cars are equivalent to my valve being off. I've heard of water cooler, buy I use Evan's coolant, which is better. Thanks for the comment!
Looking at swapping out all of my heater hose with AN line like you. Are you running -8 or -10 on everything? Also have my timing cover off right now so I’ll be doing the weld on bungs like in your lower radiator hose video.
Very cool... get it? ha, ha... yeah, -10's all over. Before you go nuts, and if you're running the T'd heads trick, check out my latest video on this subject. th-cam.com/video/v_qUY4E33r0/w-d-xo.html Have fun!
Great info Mike, I’m installing my stroker 455 in my 65 and was thinking about teeing my rear head ports together. My heater core flows all the time , but I’m installing a shut off valve in the rear head connection. I also have aluminum heads.
Awesome! Good to have it and not need it, versus need it and not have it. ha, ha...
That's great stuff! I really like your testing to prove why the solution is best. There are a lot of rumours and myths in the classic car industri.
Besides that I am going to rebuild/freshen up my 68' and cooling system (and this solution) is definitely going to be a part of that. The divider plate design is some shit hopefully the 11 bolt design is "less shit" than 8 bolt. Have you done any testing on those 2 water pump designs?
Thanks.... yeah, testing water pumps would be a colossal amount of work, so no. ha, ha... I'm sure the 11 bolts are better. Just be sure to check out my water pump install video. Also, check out the latest video of the rear head plumbing... th-cam.com/video/v_qUY4E33r0/w-d-xo.html Thanks again!
For stock iron heads, could you accomplish the same result by just knocking out the freeze plug on the driver side head, installing another restriction nipple like on the passenger side, and then tee'ing it into the heater hose coming off the passenger side nipple?
Good question Robert... YES, that's exactly what you can do. But, just use rubber hose, instead of AN fittings.
my 68 Bird with A/C did not have a Heater valve but my 73 Grand Prix did it is closed with Vacuum "Jim Hand's book he calls for a .050" gap between the water pump impeller and divider plate" Have you looked at that as well? P.S. Keep up the great info
Thanks Fred... good to know about the heater valve. Yeah, I have a Flow Kooler pump which comes with a tighter fitting divider plate. Thanks for the comment!
gasket match the front water ports from the heads, to the crossover ports in the intake.
Not exactly sure what you're getting at... but, I added onto this concept in this video... th-cam.com/video/v_qUY4E33r0/w-d-xo.html Enjoy!
I have never tested it, but I tee both heads together and run forward to my crossover. I pull water for the heater from the crossover and back into the water pump nipple. Just for a cleaner hose routing with the AC lines. I do not see temperature fluctuations doing it this way.
Might be another angle for you.
Thanks Dave! Good stuff... I'm going to run the heater return directly to the radiator, and see what happens. Stay tuned for that test. Thanks again.
After building Pontiac engines for about 30 years I can 100% guarantee that your problem lies in the water pump to divider plate clearance.
Thanks Glenn... I agree with you. However, this video is about cooling the rear of the heads. Here's my latest video about it; th-cam.com/video/v_qUY4E33r0/w-d-xo.html Thanks again.
You can not run hot coolant back to the intake side of your pump as you will reduce the flow from your radiator reducing cooling. Coolent from the back of the heads must go to before thermostat so it will go to the radiator. Also you should try a remote thermostat on inlet hose.
Agreed! Here's part 2, where I fixed that ... live and learn, right? th-cam.com/video/v_qUY4E33r0/w-d-xo.htmlsi=HTHF-alYl34Jr2xh
Hi Mike, I’m looking at purchasing a 1970 GTO, it’s in original condition no modifications. It is not cheap but it’s in mint condition (everything). It’s almost too original to modify…. My question is do I destroy the long term resale value by modifying the car? Things like improving brakes, suspension, increasing horse power from the engine? I wouldn’t cut into body work I guess most mods would be reversible if I kept all the original parts.. just curious in your view..
Congrats on your purchase! That's a great question, the answer is... it's your car now, do what you want with it. :) From my experience, I elected to build a fun car to drive, for handling, etc... versus restoring an original owner car. When it comes down to it, it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, do what makes you happy. Have fun!
P S my 1960 389 had a Offenhouser aluminum 3 duece intake that blocked off the rear water passage on the heads.??😮
Ohhh, yeah, I don't understand 1960 and earlier. Ha, ha...
I badly need these solutions to the cooling cause I am building a butler spec'd 462. I would hate mess up, so I am open to any help from. SBC / BBC no problem, but Poncho power I have always loved and building engines new to me.
You're in the right place... congrats on picking a Butler build.
We should had this video to the 71 page thread on the PY/Ames message board about cooling.
I hope as a good example... ha, ha... Thanks Chris!
I'm curious why you run your coolant so high. I run a 160 degree thermostat and have the stock plumbing arrangement with 6x iron heads with no heating or cooling issues.
That is the mystery of the world. As you know, it depends on a ton of factors. I will have more episodes on this topic, changing one component or plumbing locations at a time until we figure out the best solution. All a part of learning. Thanks!
What size AN fitting would you use instead of the ball valve!
Not sure I understand... it's all size 10. Keep in mind you need some sort of restriction, as I mentioned in the video. OR, plumb it to the crossover, which I'll be doing in a future video. See ya!
It would be interesting to see what would happen if you closed the valve and blocked the heater hose inlet to the timing chain cover so then you have a total heater delete. i was wonder if that would cause the water pump to pull the coolant thru the heads back to the thermostat more equally and return the coolant to the radiator since this would be the main path of return coolant to the radiator and if this would effect the head temps. Also running with a heater core is basically a auxiliary radiator so the return coolant to the timing cover would be slightly cooler. Well great video really enjoyed it take it easy mike hey you going to cops and rodders show in SD
Have to agree with you, this kind of goes with the old trick of when a car starts overheat turn on your heater to help cool your motor. Probably work better just to run it back through the heads.
Good question James, that's exactly what happened when I turned the valve all the way off. ZERO coolant flows through the heater line, acting the same as blocking the hose inlet and forcing ALL of the coolant through the heads. Which proved the point the rear of the heads are hotter. Yes, running through an operational heater core, with the heating fan on, will act as another radiator. (Mine is bypassed, which I failed to mention) Yes, I'll be at the Cops and Rodders show... you?
@@BostonsOfTerror That's what happened when I turned the valve all the way off, ALL the coolant went back through the heads, resulting in higher temps in the rear. (My heater core is bypassed, which I failed to mention) Thanks!
I did a modification about 22yrs ago and it worked great. I had a Eldelbrock Torker intake on my 455. I bought a used intake the same. I cut off the thermostat water cross over off the second intake and mounted it on the rear of the motor. Pulled the freeze plugs and bolted the cross over on the rear with the thermostat in the rear cross over and and blocked off the front thermostat housing. So the water flow enters the front of the motor and exists the rear of the motor..............the 455 bored .060 over ran 30 degrees cooler and never had over heating issues again.
Wow! That's awesome! Thanks for sharing!
Do you have any pictures sounds like something I might want to try on my 455 with stock heads
@@1intimidator3 I didn't think about pictures at the time. Back then was film and Polaroids......sorry
@@TxHammer757 ok no problem thank you for getting back to me
One more question did interfere with your distributor at all?
switch the hose to the other side of the engine and connect to the return from the heads.
Not sure what you mean? Regardless, you might like my follow on video to this... th-cam.com/video/v_qUY4E33r0/w-d-xo.html
Try porting both heads to feed directly back into the thermostat housing. Precision automotive specialist makes an adapter for a Pontiac water neck, but it is currently out of stock (I’m waiting for one for my 70 TA)
Thanks Dale, yeah, I was just made aware of that kit. Unfortunately, they eliminate the use of a thermostat. Unless I'm not reading their website correctly? Thanks for the comment!
I ordered from Precision over a year ago still waiting on parts. This is some BS , they need to give me my money back or my parts.
@@stevenlynch6605 it’s my understanding that he is no longer producing them. You’ll need to email directly and request a refund
What if you ran the hoses into the intake right next to the thermostat instead of water pump
Yeah Gary, I love it. Several others stated the same. I think my next experiment will be adding a nipple to the radiator, and run the return directly to that. (So I can hide that hose too) Stay tuned! Thanks again!
Did you happen to try tying the back of the heads to the top of the radiator rather than the cooler side going back into the engine? Why tie the hot coolant from the back of the heads to the cooler coolant going into the engine at all?
Agreed. I did that in a later video, here... th-cam.com/video/v_qUY4E33r0/w-d-xo.html It's wayyy better.
Noticed my chevy c10 doesn't have thermostat. When I touch the radiator hose coming from engine to radiator it feels pretty hot. Shouldn't the radiator cool down the fluid if it's that hot?
Depends what you define as "hot" :) the coolant from the engine is probably around 200 degrees. Even with a 175 degree thermostat, it can still get hotter than that. Hope that helps.
Is it possible then just to tap a 1/8" or 1/4" copper tube from the driver's side head to a tee in the heater core hose? Would the copper itself provide a miniscule temperature drop acting as a heat sink, or would you still install a valve inline to experiment with? Wish I had known this when I had my '70 350 Catalina...
I think you'd need one heck of a copper coil, to see any additional cooling. But, there's an even better idea... check out my part 2 to this. th-cam.com/video/v_qUY4E33r0/w-d-xo.html Have fun!
That IS pretty slick! Had to go back and watch the episode on divorcing a Pontiac crossover as well!
@@christopheransell2179 Ha! Yep, all kinds of new stuff in that video, huh? Thanks for checking em out!
I put a an6 with a y to the uper hose
Nice! Thanks for sharing that trick!
Mezier electtic pump free up horsepower i prefer that than hoses all around too the back of the heads
Agreed about an electric pump, but doesn't fix the rear of the heads getting hotter than the front. Hence my Part 2 video about this, where the electric pump would be a drop in. (That's my plan anyway, ha ha) Thanks!
Quick questions:
- what AN size did you use to make the rear crossover?
- what AN sizes are you running into and out of the heater core?
Good questions... I'm using -10 AN hose, where it converts to a 5/8" barb before, and after the heater core. BUT, before you go crazy, check out my latest cooling video here... th-cam.com/video/v_qUY4E33r0/w-d-xo.html Have fun!
Ok, that may explain why the restrictor lowered the engine temp.
@@urqed5305 Yup, too fast of flow doesn't give the radiator enough time to cool.
Agreed. Your videos are very
well done with some great tips!
@@urqed5305 Thanks! Much appreciated!
Hey Mike you a Vet?
Nope, my Dad was... Hooo Rahhh. If you were, thanks for your service!
My 67 flows all the time. 400 bored .030 over
Thanks, Bill! Good to know! Thanks for the comment.
Mike, Don't laugh and perhaps a dumb question. My old 389 bored to 400 made at least 400 hp. Always ran hot, 200-220 no matter what thermostat. Watching your video, which are always outstanding, made me think, hear the rattling? What if you run both heads in the rear to a tee then run direct to the radiator, hose or something modified so it gets a chance to be fully cooled. The thought of the neat valve you have leaking, in time, inside the interior is scary. I remember just the smell to this day when my heater core failed! Your thoughts, Tom.
Thanks Matthew. Yeah, I will have a follow up to this video with a solution... I'm thinking of tapping into the crossover, for the rear T return. Agreed about the heater core blow out... had that happen to me too. But, at least all of my hoses are brand new, and there's no excess steam pressure because I use Waterless coolant by Evans. :) Stay tuned! And, thanks for the comment!
@@FastMonty Well Mike, learned something new! The Evans waterless coolant. The only other coolant I had considered was the best Amsoil coolant, I think they have two kinds. Do you know much about it? Tom
@@Matthew-21_22 Do I know about Amsoil coolant? No. Evans is awesome, and expensive. The good thing is it never gets old, and you can use it over and over again. Here's a link to where I get it... www.amazon.com/dp/B00TPVI2TQ?ref=exp_fastmontysgarage_dp_vv_d
I had my 350 rebuilt and it wont stay under 220 and the shop says they dony know whats going on.When I bought the car it never went over 200.Can anybody explain
Great question, Clinton. We feel your pain. Unfortunately, there are so many things within the cooling system that could be the culprit, that it makes it impossible to diagnose over an online chat. Something clearly changed, OR maybe something got dislodged and clogged the radiator, or heater core, or the new water pump has a different impeller, or the coolant is different, or the thermostat is higher... I think you get my point, let us know if something is obviously different.
So this is a great idea but will only work on "newer" pontiacs lol if there is such a thing with D port ponchos.....but it will not work on the older 12 bolt style heads....pre 65 because there is no nipple on the rear of either head as the rear of the intake covers those coolant jackets......also 65-66 it wont work on because the throttle bell crank bolts over the soft plug blocking the passage on the driver head......just a little info on the older stuff......
Thanks Steven! Love the added info.
@@FastMonty i love the fact you do a lot of poncho specific stuff.....thats why i watch......ima poncho guy as well.....oh and love the goat
@@stevenhagebusch9561 Thanks Steven! I appreciate the comment, welcome to the FMG family.
On my 65 it flows all the time
Thanks Bill! I'm filming part 2 to this episode, this week... stay tuned!
Isn't there a thermostat bypass coming from the thermostat crossover to the water pump inlet?
Once you have that, make sure it's not too much because this bypasses the radiator.
The purpose of this bypass circuit is to keep water constantly circulating through the block to avoid hot spots.
It will depend on the engine but in my experience, a 1/4" thermostat bypass orifice is sufficient.
Yes, there sure is a crossover bypass, which is mostly used while the thermostat is closed. That said, and inherent to the Pontiac design, there's no way to get the coolant from the rear of the heads, to the front crossover. We proved that that theory is true, because when the ball valve I installed is closed, the rear of the heads are hotter than the front, where the crossover is. Ironically enough, I'm filming part 2 to this episode as we speak... so, stay tuned for that experiment. Thanks!
@@FastMonty I'm not sure why you want to bypass the heads, I feel it's better to recirculate through both block and heads. If there's too much coolant recirculating, the radiator is being bypassed too much. Place a restrictor in the passage from the front manifold crossover to water pump inlet to reduce the quantity of coolant recirculating (this coolant being recirculated is bypassing radiator).
In some cases (not referring to pontiac specifically, mostly sbc) the factory inserts an orifice in the heater core hose to limit coolant recirculation for this reason.
Anyway, the recirculation keeps hot spots from forming and flows past the thermostat bulb to warm it up.
Good luck, I'm not familiar with the pontiac cooling loop, I'm more familiar with ford, sbc, buick and olds, so just describing the concept/purpose of recirculation.
@@thisisyourcaptainspeaking2259 I don't know why you think I'm bypassing the heads? I suggest reviewing the first 5 minutes of the video, where I thoroughly explain the coolant path in a Pontiac engine. Thanks.
@@FastMonty so by allowing the coolant to exit the rear of the head, this doesn't reduce flow through the head, got it. I mistakenly thought this was bypassing the head, like would be the case for all other v8's I know.
@@thisisyourcaptainspeaking2259 Yup! and to your point, I had TOO much flow when I converted to AN hoses... at least too much flow back into the water pump, from the rear of the heads. So, next video, I'm changing that, and re-testing. Thanks!
Why not run the water from the back of the heads into the radiator hose
returning to the radiator instead of pumping it right back into the engine?
That’s what I was thinking, too.
Good thought, good thought... I'm actually filming the follow up episode this week. You'll see my answer soon. :) Thanks for the comment!
All that heat needs to flow back through the radiator. Not back into the engine. That's what radiators are for....
Agreed... that's why I did a Part 2 to this video. Here: th-cam.com/video/v_qUY4E33r0/w-d-xo.html
It would be better to change your motor to reverse cooling like Smokey Yunick describes in one of his How To Books.
Agreed... reverse cooling would be awesome. I'll have to look into the feasibility. Thanks!
@@FastMonty I've done Reverse Cooling on Pontiac 400s and 455s using regular anti-freeze and also with Mecca Evans Cooling's Propylene Glycol. It is best to Tap and Thread the Block's Side Freeze Plugs and use Aluminum Heads makes it a little easier to Plumb the Water Manifold into the Back of the Water Jacket Behind the Exhaust Valves. Another thing that works Great on the Pontiac when not running Reverse Cooling is since You can Remove the Front Water Crossover is to Build a Gradual Shallow Merge Angle Style Crossover Manifold that goes thru a Straight Flow Inline Thermostat Housing with either a Restrictor Ring or Thermostat. Smokey Yunick liked the Robert Shaw Mini Thermostat for some reason for this. What this Gradual Shallow Merge Angle Crossover Manifold does is it switches from the Standard Pontiac Crossover's Design of a Head to Head Collision of each Cylinder's Head Hot Coolant Flow at the Thermostat Housing Turn each Fighting for Dominance to pass since one is always running a little Hotter than the other overwhelming the other side's Flow from it's Greater Pressure Stalling the other side causing it to get Hotter and Hotter till it eventually Forces it's Side to have the Dominant Flow which in turn Generates an ever Escalating side to side Cylinder Head Heating & Switching Flow Sides Cascading Overheating Condition and Now makes Each Side Equally Merge Politely with out the Hot Headed Road Rage and thru the Thermostat Housing into the Radiator Inlet for their Cool Down Period on their way back to the Block with the Whole System Running Dramatically Cooler. Reverse Cooling is of course the Real answer as the Original Steam Engine Design to Cool the Block First before the Heads Sending Hot Water to the Heads for Cooling just makes No Sense in a Internal Combustion a Engine. Mecca Evans in Conn. did the Original R&D for The Chevrolet Corvette (Late C4 or early C5 I think it was). Keep the Shiny Side Up on that Pontiac. Thanks for the Video.
@@ccfmfg Nice! I'm going to add it to my dream list... here's my latest video on the subject, which gets a little closer to evening out all that coolant heat. th-cam.com/video/v_qUY4E33r0/w-d-xo.html Thanks again!
Question….. When you run on the highway, do your fans kick on at all?
Great question... no, the car loves 70mph, and stays under 180 degrees. That's with ambient being around 85. Hope that helps.
@@FastMonty Thanks. So at 70mph, it stays under 180 with no fans on? I ask because on my Ventura, I've been playing with electric fans. If the fan kicks on, it will drive 75-80mph at 195. At 65 it stays at 180. But with no fan, it runs 210. It's an auto with th2004r & 4.10's. Cruises 65 at 2500 RPM.
@@v8pontiacvent Welp, sounds like you need your fans on. Not ideal, but 210 is too hot for me. You have a bigger challenge due to your transmission, as you know, your radiator has an oil cooler built in, which robs coolant capacity, and adds another heat source to the radiator. I'm going to start experimenting with more cooling ideas, like plumbing the heater hose directly into the radiator, and collect more data. I'll also pay more attention to speed, rpm, ambient temps, etc... and share that data as I get it. If you have any breakthroughs, let me know! Thanks for sharing!
@@FastMonty Thanks for the info Mike. I do have an aluminum 3 core radiator, without trans cooler lines. Separate trans cooler up front. E fan is a Black Magic, 3,300 CFM unit. If I install the oem metal 4 blade mechanical fan, (No fan shroud) she runs 190 all day any speed....160 in the winter lol! I should also point out, it's a 350, with KRE D port aluminum heads.
@@v8pontiacvent Great to hear you have a separate cooler for the trans. It sounds like you might need to just suck it up and allow the fans to do their job. :) (I suspect the E fan shroud prevents air flow, when they're not on, hence the higher temps) Nothing wrong with that, as long as they don't fail. I'll keep on my path of researching and learning more about radiator design, pump flow, ideal flow, etc... we'll get there! Thanks again for contributing.
So...you are having heating issues, and you are routing hot coolant back to the water pump. Long story short, you are heat cycling your coolant system. Why not route the back of both heads to the intake crossover, that way it is run into the RAD and had a chance to cool down before going back into the fire?
Thanks Billy, totally agreed! Stay tuned for my next experiment with this cooling stuff. Thanks for the comment!
You have to take it from back of both heads and plumb them into the thermostat housing. Get rid of thermostat and put a restrictor instead of The thermostat. Do restrict opening used to be the size of a quarter. No issues idling at 170 degrees. Definitely use an electric water pump. What you’re doing is a waste of time
Yup, one thing at a time... here's Part 2. th-cam.com/video/v_qUY4E33r0/w-d-xo.html Electric Water pump is on my list. Thanks!
Much to do about nothing, I've been driving PONTIACS for 45 yrs ,overheating never been a problem
That doesn't mean it doesn't work. While this particular method is marginal. The part 2 version worked even better. Here; th-cam.com/video/v_qUY4E33r0/w-d-xo.htmlsi=GElW1KtpG8juGZYw
All those heater hoses are doing is bypassing the radiator. You don't need all this drama.
Well, kinda... check out the latest version th-cam.com/video/v_qUY4E33r0/w-d-xo.html
Is there any way to email you? I believe that the solution I've needed for 2 years is within your process, but if we could "talk" via email that would really help! On top of not wanting to hurt the .035 over 421 Tripower that I've had rebuilt, it's my wife's car, and I need to succeed in fixing this.
Yes, of course... please review my latest video on this subject, here; th-cam.com/video/v_qUY4E33r0/w-d-xo.html If you need to send me an email, it's fastmontysgarage at gmail. Please also consider "Joining" the channel here; th-cam.com/channels/B2KWiUuWR_OFpJtXS94bCQ.htmljoin Thanks!