This has always been a massive no no as a PI. Our account managers stress it every time for this exact reason. As a PI, you are never allowed to add funds unless it is the 1st of the month, even if it means that your monthly average equity will drop below the threshold, resulting in a demotion. I had to tank a 2 month demotion because of this in 2022 during the crypto crash as I wasn't able to add funds during the month.
Oh wow really? I wonder if this is the case for all PIs, or if you just have a particularly strict/effective account manager. That's an even stronger restriction than I had imagined.
I trust that etoro monitors and is on top of such things... if nothing else, because they are regulated and can get in trouble with that authority. (which can fine or even shut down) As a software engineer, the easier way to do this, with minimal change that does not require them to rework big part of their systems, is to simply flag this particular statistic (say a "*" next to the number) anytime money is added near the end of the month. So it offers a warning to all and the trader can explain to the public, if needed. Or a more involved approach, that the trader would need to explain to etoro, so that the flag is removed. But yes, simply flagging the suspicious statistics, would be an easy way to go, technically.
That sounds good - anything really just to promote as much transparency as possible. I think everyone's fine with odd situations as long as they can understand what happened. I think* :) I like the idea of the asterisk. I wonder if they've already got some fixes they've been considering.
Hi Tom! I just had a call with my account manager. He promoted Celesh and by this chance I spoke with him about your video and your concerns and that you haven't received any feedback from Celesh nor Etoro. I wonder if you get any explanation now.
Thanks - yeah, it's a difficult one as I'm always going over their stats in my vids, and it's made a complete mess of my ability to track how he's actually done now. Not sure what to say from now on when I mention his yearly stats.
This is my biggest critique with etoro at the moment. I have seen many blue and red stars gaming their stats last year, and attaining hundreds of copiers off the back of their "over-performance", even reaching Elite level status as a result. As someone who has worked extremely hard and been 100% open and honest, by constantly posting my account balance (with screenshots) and having a fraction of the copiers I should have based on my stats history, it is extremely demoralising.
Im still copying Celesh but the moment he can't get a profit in April I'm out and I don't see why anyone should stay. As you said, the statistics are the only thing we can go by when deciding to copy someone. Celesh has never had more than 2 red months in a row and always followed by a month of bigger profit right after those 2 bad months. Actually he always gets his most profitable month of the year right after the 2 bad months. If April is a month of good profit I still very much believe in his consistency. Otherwise I'm not sure how real his statistics are and I'm not going to copy someone who's statistics I can't trust. So I'm waiting till the end of April.
Just bear in mind that, there has been a technical error on etoro the last few days and it just got corrected today. My stats as of until noon today showed a 3% loss this year, but it got corrected today and now show 3.3% in profit which is correct. This issue has been lasting since the market closed for Easter. ( I didn´t add any funds during this time, nor did I withdraw any funds )
@@SocialTrading Sure if he did add funds on the last day of the month it should. But you need to be 100% sure that he knew which effect it would have on his stats, as maybe he didn´t. Unlikely but possible. But there are many ways of manipulating things. Probably the worst of them is the 2 account trick. You open 2 accounts and go as heavy as your risk level allow, but in opposite directions. You buy stocks, currencies or whatever with 1 account , then you sell the same assets with the second account, high leverage. Wait for one account to have made like 80% profit and the second 80% loss, then take profit and stop the other account out. Then Copy the winning account with the second account and you now apply to become a PI, with the winning account. Ever wondered why some PI´s made a lot of profits before they started getting a lot of copiers, but then the stats dropped afterwards?
If you mean the smart portfolios which are full of PIs, then the effect would be incredibly diluted if one was to do this... I think eToro really are watching for it though. There's a comment from a PI somewhere here where he's saying that as a PI, he was specifically spoken to about this subject, so unless it's just him, it looks like the warnings not to try to manipulate stats are pretty standard.
Hmmmmm. Maybe. I never thought about that, so I'm not sure. Would make sense, but I'm not sure if they have systems to not let that happen... Have you ever seen that happen?
Yes I always found the fact that etoro shows funds as a profit to be really confusing and funny (probably misleading too to be fair with you). I hope they change that.
It doesn't actually show them as profit, but rather it dilutes any losses or profits the trader has made - but yeah, if your losses lower, it's resulting in the same effect as adding profits, so I get what you mean :)
Maybe stopping copy the traders who add money on the last day of the month is the solution? Only keep those who don't do it. I think that is the conclusion you made in the video right?
I'm going to wait and see if he explains first. He may have just done something without thinking it through, so I'll give him some time to see what he says. It looks bad though...
@@SocialTrading you can possibly check if other traders you copy have done it in the past. Maybe by checking their activity and when they added money in the past? Or before starting copy someone, checking their stats for funds add to see if they try to manipulate the stats.
I’m not sure what the issue was about but I’m glad you got the results and are feeling better now I just need you to know how much it hurts and how bad it feels to feel like it is not helping me or helping you feel like I need to get through the process of moving around with my body. I’m sorry for the stress but I’m sure you will be able to handle this with ease and understanding
If your account is the one I think it is... you only have 4 years in the platform (very few to have solid results), you only have 2 positive full years and 1 negative (VERY negative), Your average considering this year is a 10% yearly return (which is quiet low), and around 40% of your portfolio is in the red.....usually what ive seen, people with copiers either have a longer history of good results or have had espectacular results in the recent years, either option attracts users in my opinion.
As always a great vid. You always want to give benefit of doubt but this is clear manipulation - bin Celesh!!! Zero trust. Even if he has seen an unmissable opportunity, a reputable PI has a modest cash reserve for this purpose. Celesh has more than 80% now unallocated. He can’t magic away the red candle completely doing this but still huge red flag. Plus he has shorted Gold!!!
But eToro did say they were watching closely, and if they spotted someone purposefully trying to manipulate their stats, they'd be in trouble... I believe them, just because there's no way you'd risk your business by doing nothing about it. I'd imagine anyhow...
@@SocialTrading Etoro know about this issue, it has been existing always. They even did in some post recommend you add funds on the 1st of the month, to avoid your stats being affected which they will be if you add at any other time. Please remember that there are millions of people on Etoro so there is really no way they can do anything about it, unless they only will allow new funds on the 1st of the month, which is not going to happen as that would be chaotic
should be better in future with the new regulation with 50k for elite and 100k for Elite Pro, like this its not easy to manipulate with this big amounts
Good point. I reckon eToro are watching it even with the smaller PIs though - I think if they get a reputation for having manipulated stats, they know it'd be bad for business.
Is it not possbile he had some trades move in his favour towards the end of the month. Your two screenshots of his stats are 6 days apart, could a few of his investments moved well in that timeframe? Or are you sure the uptick between your two screenshots was from him adding money alone?
I looked at the closed trades, and there aren't any which would have caused it which closed before the end of March, and looking at the open assets, I can't see any which had a strong enough uptick in those last 3 days (only 1 day when markets were open) which would have caused it. I could be wrong, but I don't think so...
You reckon? I thought maybe it's quite a complicated calculation to display. Maybe some sort of 'with additional funds' / 'without additional funds' toggle maybe.
But over all e-toro as a real problem with this because each time I close a trade my "profit/losses" indicator changes. So if I made 100$ profit on a trade, close it and open it at the same price, then loose 5$ the "profit / loss" indicator will show in red "-5$" where in reality I made 95$ ... this is not how we count T_T They should just sum up all the historical realised and unrealised equity and show it as a result. However they only show the "unrealised" one. In the same manner for the % of the copy traders they should always calculate the % profit/loss with regards with the initial value of your portfolio i.e what you invest. Open 1 trade at 300$, you make 100$ then you put 500$ external liquidity. So from 300 you now have 300+ 100 + 500 = 900$. e-toro will show a 200% increase where you only made a 50% increase, that's just bad maths, no math teacher will have any pitty for you if you math this way because it's not really complicated to do. I think they do it on purpose so they can show better statistics ...
I'm not sure I'm understanding right. The thing about adding funds when you're in profit is that it wouldn't increase your profit stats, it would actually lower them, as it's causing a diluting effect each time new funds are added. So losses get smaller, and profits get smaller too...
@@SocialTrading I'm not sure if it is still like this, but at some point I made a month at +20% just because I added funds... it was not a dillution effect. Perhaps on the copy traders it shows differently. But my monthly stats are totally wicked, I have a separate accounting on an excel sheet so I can see what I made and it's quite different from what e-toro shows... EDIT : This is because they show a "value indicator" instead of a "performance indicator", i'm not sure if you can change the parameters to show it... but in interactive brokers you actually can :)
honestly i find it hard trusting anyone period, some are right some are wrong some know exactly what they are doing, and are genuine but some are not, so better not trust any, or trust your common sense
They're a massive business, so I reckon the last thing they want is people worrying about faulty stats. I do think it makes good business sense to constantly watch for manipulations of stats, so the virtuous thing coincides with the best business practise here i think.
it's supposed to be eligal to use insider trading, but we all know it goes on right, and we all know company directors of many companies are the one's that do it all the time, they even get family members to get in on the act, it's pretty normal to think like that, it's called GREED, @@SocialTrading
Poor execution, high fees, no advanced trading tips and educational materials, my take profits are sometimes not taken, stop losses always... They are a bunch of assholes just waiting for crypto to rebound than I'll take everything out!
This has always been a massive no no as a PI. Our account managers stress it every time for this exact reason. As a PI, you are never allowed to add funds unless it is the 1st of the month, even if it means that your monthly average equity will drop below the threshold, resulting in a demotion. I had to tank a 2 month demotion because of this in 2022 during the crypto crash as I wasn't able to add funds during the month.
Oh wow really? I wonder if this is the case for all PIs, or if you just have a particularly strict/effective account manager. That's an even stronger restriction than I had imagined.
I trust that etoro monitors and is on top of such things... if nothing else, because they are regulated and can get in trouble with that authority. (which can fine or even shut down)
As a software engineer, the easier way to do this, with minimal change that does not require them to rework big part of their systems, is to simply flag this particular statistic (say a "*" next to the number) anytime money is added near the end of the month.
So it offers a warning to all and the trader can explain to the public, if needed.
Or a more involved approach, that the trader would need to explain to etoro, so that the flag is removed.
But yes, simply flagging the suspicious statistics, would be an easy way to go, technically.
That sounds good - anything really just to promote as much transparency as possible. I think everyone's fine with odd situations as long as they can understand what happened. I think* :) I like the idea of the asterisk. I wonder if they've already got some fixes they've been considering.
Hi, thanks for answering my question in a new video. i'm happy i found you on youtube, learning each time watching your videos.
Glad to be of some help!
Hi Tom! I just had a call with my account manager. He promoted Celesh and by this chance I spoke with him about your video and your concerns and that you haven't received any feedback from Celesh nor Etoro. I wonder if you get any explanation now.
Thanks for highlighting the issue
Thanks - yeah, it's a difficult one as I'm always going over their stats in my vids, and it's made a complete mess of my ability to track how he's actually done now. Not sure what to say from now on when I mention his yearly stats.
This is my biggest critique with etoro at the moment. I have seen many blue and red stars gaming their stats last year, and attaining hundreds of copiers off the back of their "over-performance", even reaching Elite level status as a result. As someone who has worked extremely hard and been 100% open and honest, by constantly posting my account balance (with screenshots) and having a fraction of the copiers I should have based on my stats history, it is extremely demoralising.
So you reckon that a lot of PIs are getting away with this regularly eh?
@@SocialTrading I dont know if it's a lot, but I know of a handful.
Im still copying Celesh but the moment he can't get a profit in April I'm out and I don't see why anyone should stay. As you said, the statistics are the only thing we can go by when deciding to copy someone. Celesh has never had more than 2 red months in a row and always followed by a month of bigger profit right after those 2 bad months. Actually he always gets his most profitable month of the year right after the 2 bad months. If April is a month of good profit I still very much believe in his consistency. Otherwise I'm not sure how real his statistics are and I'm not going to copy someone who's statistics I can't trust. So I'm waiting till the end of April.
I’m still just waiting, but I would have hoped for some sort of communication by now really.
Just bear in mind that, there has been a technical error on etoro the last few days and it just got corrected today. My stats as of until noon today showed a 3% loss this year, but it got corrected today and now show 3.3% in profit which is correct. This issue has been lasting since the market closed for Easter. ( I didn´t add any funds during this time, nor did I withdraw any funds )
Cheers for the feedback. Unfortunately, it's still showing the same...
@@SocialTrading Sure if he did add funds on the last day of the month it should. But you need to be 100% sure that he knew which effect it would have on his stats, as maybe he didn´t. Unlikely but possible. But there are many ways of manipulating things. Probably the worst of them is the 2 account trick. You open 2 accounts and go as heavy as your risk level allow, but in opposite directions. You buy stocks, currencies or whatever with 1 account , then you sell the same assets with the second account, high leverage. Wait for one account to have made like 80% profit and the second 80% loss, then take profit and stop the other account out. Then Copy the winning account with the second account and you now apply to become a PI, with the winning account. Ever wondered why some PI´s made a lot of profits before they started getting a lot of copiers, but then the stats dropped afterwards?
I think the same way you do, but with the smart portfolios, we don’t have that problem, right?
If you mean the smart portfolios which are full of PIs, then the effect would be incredibly diluted if one was to do this... I think eToro really are watching for it though. There's a comment from a PI somewhere here where he's saying that as a PI, he was specifically spoken to about this subject, so unless it's just him, it looks like the warnings not to try to manipulate stats are pretty standard.
in contrary when PI have certain profit and PI reduce his money, than as percentage his return would be bigger?
Hmmmmm. Maybe. I never thought about that, so I'm not sure. Would make sense, but I'm not sure if they have systems to not let that happen... Have you ever seen that happen?
Yes I always found the fact that etoro shows funds as a profit to be really confusing and funny (probably misleading too to be fair with you). I hope they change that.
It doesn't actually show them as profit, but rather it dilutes any losses or profits the trader has made - but yeah, if your losses lower, it's resulting in the same effect as adding profits, so I get what you mean :)
They can't print someone's P/L or Balance sheet for tax reasons. But I don't take too much notice of the stats. Good video.
Cheers :) So do you mean that true transparency is impossible?
@@SocialTrading Not very likely, sadly.
You can see trades, % P/L and % balance which is all you need to flag manipulation.
Thank you
Thanks for watching!
They should add a delay on transfer on last day, would fix it ill post your video on e tor to inform my copiers /Epicquality @@SocialTrading
Maybe stopping copy the traders who add money on the last day of the month is the solution? Only keep those who don't do it. I think that is the conclusion you made in the video right?
I'm going to wait and see if he explains first. He may have just done something without thinking it through, so I'll give him some time to see what he says. It looks bad though...
@@SocialTrading you can possibly check if other traders you copy have done it in the past. Maybe by checking their activity and when they added money in the past? Or before starting copy someone, checking their stats for funds add to see if they try to manipulate the stats.
The lack of rightful information misleading me from what I am seeing. Trust is a virtue of being
❤
I’m not sure what the issue was about but I’m glad you got the results and are feeling better now I just need you to know how much it hurts and how bad it feels to feel like it is not helping me or helping you feel like I need to get through the process of moving around with my body. I’m sorry for the stress but I’m sure you will be able to handle this with ease and understanding
3:23 funny rage of annoyance :)
:)
Great Video
Thank you !
How come there are so many profiles/traders with copiers when they have poorly yearly returns or avg yet mine are not bad for 3 years and have none
Not sure. Do you have large drawdowns anywhere or high risk scores?
If your account is the one I think it is... you only have 4 years in the platform (very few to have solid results), you only have 2 positive full years and 1 negative (VERY negative), Your average considering this year is a 10% yearly return (which is quiet low), and around 40% of your portfolio is in the red.....usually what ive seen, people with copiers either have a longer history of good results or have had espectacular results in the recent years, either option attracts users in my opinion.
As always a great vid. You always want to give benefit of doubt but this is clear manipulation - bin Celesh!!! Zero trust. Even if he has seen an unmissable opportunity, a reputable PI has a modest cash reserve for this purpose. Celesh has more than 80% now unallocated. He can’t magic away the red candle completely doing this but still huge red flag. Plus he has shorted Gold!!!
It's not looking good eh...
and thanks :)
I always knew that. You can add money to stay in green.
But eToro did say they were watching closely, and if they spotted someone purposefully trying to manipulate their stats, they'd be in trouble... I believe them, just because there's no way you'd risk your business by doing nothing about it. I'd imagine anyhow...
@@SocialTrading Yeah makes sense.
@@SocialTrading Etoro know about this issue, it has been existing always. They even did in some post recommend you add funds on the 1st of the month, to avoid your stats being affected which they will be if you add at any other time. Please remember that there are millions of people on Etoro so there is really no way they can do anything about it, unless they only will allow new funds on the 1st of the month, which is not going to happen as that would be chaotic
Not true. Adding money moves stats closer to zero but never from red to green. ;)
should be better in future with the new regulation with 50k for elite and 100k for Elite Pro, like this its not easy to manipulate with this big amounts
Good point. I reckon eToro are watching it even with the smaller PIs though - I think if they get a reputation for having manipulated stats, they know it'd be bad for business.
Is it not possbile he had some trades move in his favour towards the end of the month. Your two screenshots of his stats are 6 days apart, could a few of his investments moved well in that timeframe?
Or are you sure the uptick between your two screenshots was from him adding money alone?
I looked at the closed trades, and there aren't any which would have caused it which closed before the end of March, and looking at the open assets, I can't see any which had a strong enough uptick in those last 3 days (only 1 day when markets were open) which would have caused it. I could be wrong, but I don't think so...
You can see all his trades and the 80% cash on balance. Clear manipulation.
@@SocialTrading Thought as much, just erring on the side of caution. Hopefully traders don't make a habit of this as it's not a good look!
@@dubaiglen I was just playing devils advocate, I thought as much
It’s not hard for etoro to visualise the profit and loss with and without the fund
You reckon? I thought maybe it's quite a complicated calculation to display. Maybe some sort of 'with additional funds' / 'without additional funds' toggle maybe.
Helping your insight,
How I can contact you
But over all e-toro as a real problem with this because each time I close a trade my "profit/losses" indicator changes. So if I made 100$ profit on a trade, close it and open it at the same price, then loose 5$ the "profit / loss" indicator will show in red "-5$" where in reality I made 95$ ... this is not how we count T_T
They should just sum up all the historical realised and unrealised equity and show it as a result. However they only show the "unrealised" one.
In the same manner for the % of the copy traders they should always calculate the % profit/loss with regards with the initial value of your portfolio i.e what you invest. Open 1 trade at 300$, you make 100$ then you put 500$ external liquidity. So from 300 you now have 300+ 100 + 500 = 900$. e-toro will show a 200% increase where you only made a 50% increase, that's just bad maths, no math teacher will have any pitty for you if you math this way because it's not really complicated to do. I think they do it on purpose so they can show better statistics ...
I'm not sure I'm understanding right. The thing about adding funds when you're in profit is that it wouldn't increase your profit stats, it would actually lower them, as it's causing a diluting effect each time new funds are added. So losses get smaller, and profits get smaller too...
@@SocialTrading I'm not sure if it is still like this, but at some point I made a month at +20% just because I added funds... it was not a dillution effect. Perhaps on the copy traders it shows differently. But my monthly stats are totally wicked, I have a separate accounting on an excel sheet so I can see what I made and it's quite different from what e-toro shows...
EDIT : This is because they show a "value indicator" instead of a "performance indicator", i'm not sure if you can change the parameters to show it... but in interactive brokers you actually can :)
honestly i find it hard trusting anyone period, some are right some are wrong some know exactly what they are doing, and are genuine but some are not, so better not trust any, or trust your common sense
They're a massive business, so I reckon the last thing they want is people worrying about faulty stats. I do think it makes good business sense to constantly watch for manipulations of stats, so the virtuous thing coincides with the best business practise here i think.
it's supposed to be eligal to use insider trading, but we all know it goes on right, and we all know company directors of many companies are the one's that do it all the time, they even get family members to get in on the act, it's pretty normal to think like that, it's called GREED, @@SocialTrading
That is why I wouldn't upload to etoro more than $1000 as I don't trust Internet that much.
I mean I've been on eToro since 2016, and never had problems, so I do trust them.
Poor execution, high fees, no advanced trading tips and educational materials, my take profits are sometimes not taken, stop losses always... They are a bunch of assholes just waiting for crypto to rebound than I'll take everything out!