I've been watching Forgotten Weapons for a couple of years now, and I'm beginning to get the idea that this John Moses Browning guy was pretty good with guns.
Reading McBride's "A rifleman went to war" it was interesting to find that machine guns like this were originally considered 'artillery'. That tripod allowed for very precise defilade fire.
A ww2 vet told me before he passed that he was the ammunition guy for a m1917a1 during the pacific theater in ww2. He said the gun was fantastic and told many stories about it. He even got General MacArthur his morning coffee when he was a MP in occupied Japan. Thanks for the vid on this awesome gun
I have one of the wooden ammo boxes; I found it in my grandparents' basement. My grandfather probably bought it in a surplus store after the war. He was about 15 when the U.S. went to war and convinced the army recruiters that he was 16, which required parental permission for enlistment. His father was a German immigrant, and veteran of the Franco-Prussian War, and did not want his son fighting against his former countrymen, so he would not sign the permission.
Its one thing to try to go to war against your old man's ethnicity. *Its another to go to war against the same exact military your old man used to be in.*
I have a kinda similar story. My great grandfather wanted to fight in WW1, but his parents (especially his father) really didn't want him to go and help the British as they were Irish and hated the Brits with a burning passion for obvious reasons. He went to fight anyway and was promptly disowned for more then 25 years.
"At the fierce battle of Momote Airstrip in the Admiralties, the US Army's 5th Cavalry machine gunners killed several hundred Japanese in one night using their M1917 Brownings; one gun was left in position after the battle as a memorial to the desperate struggle"
A gun that simply doesn't stop working really is frightning. When JMB desinged a gun, he made sure that it worked. Period. And that's what a soldier essentially wants: A gun which he can rely on when things get bad.
The British Vickers gun was tested and fired for 7 days continuously with no flaws, only stopping to feed a new belt, replace worn out barrels and change the crew every half hour.
Brian you know what I mean, not only stationed there For SOI, but lived there, my estranged wife and kids still do. 2016-2017. Nothing there no jobs worth having unless affiliated with the Corps.
Yeah, was there from 98-02, I`m sure it hasn't improved much. The base IS the town. If your a 19yo Lcpl and like tattoo`s, strippers and getting drunk, no problem. But I sure as hell wouldn't want to raise a family there.
Brian Anderson 89-90, stationed camp Geiger. Lived there 2016-early 2017, oh and don't forget the barbershops, never have seen so many. There has been some growth. The have extended Western Blvd out and built up along the new part. But it really isn't much improved. Downtown around camp Johnson is still a dump.
@@alifr4088that’s exactly what you do in Battlefield 1 lmao you can just run around and sprint with a fucking Maxim MG shooting it with the thumb trigger
Paul Shayter When the Brits were leaving 303 they decided to expend their reserves at a particular base in an extreme stress test of a Vicker's. Something like 5 million rounds over several days, alternating crews. Gun was completely in spec afterwards.
SgtKOnyx, Yeah but that doesn't sound like the story I had heard, and although I don't recall who or from wear I was told the story it was a reputable source, maybe Gary James but I'm not certain. But the story I heard invloved the Germans and it was in battle and it was one machine gun.
My father's gun when he was a 19 year old draftee...arrived in Belgium Dec 15. 1944, big welcoming surprise the very next day,,, a little dust-up referred to as the Battle Of the Bulge. RIP, pops. you were a good man.
My late friend Acie Taylor of Geneva, AL was 135 lbs. and carried and operated one of these from Utah Beach to Czechoslovakia, with the Hurtegen Forest in between. Acie was a member of the Order of the Purple Heart among other awards. RIP amigo.
I have loved every one of my 4 - 1919A4 that I've built. I purchased 5 kits back in 1993 when they were dirt cheap. Like $150 a kit or $750 for 5 kits. I noticed that in Sept of 2020 these kits were selling for $1795 each! So now I building my last kit gun & these things are awesome.
Ian, the plug on the chain is not used for the steam condensing hose port but it used when pulling the barrel/operating group from the gun. The gun is pointed at a downward muzzle angle and as the barrel/operating group is pulled out of the back of the gun the stopper is used to plug the barrel packing hole to keep the water from running out. This allowed the gun to be cleaned or a worn barrel to be changed without losing all your water. The downward angle kept the water from coming out of the trunion barrel channel.
Would you by any chance know how often one would have had to refill the water jacket once operating temperature was reached and under sustained fire? If you test fired 20 000 rounds, could you do it on one fill up? Once the water was boiling, did you have to top up every few belts? Did you wait for it to run dry and then re fill?
I do not know but the condensing can is not perfect and has losses due to some steam. That coupled with the normal leaks at the barrel packing glands means that there will always be required make up water for the gun. One belt will get the water int he jacket hot enough to blow like a steam loco. That said, many guys at MG shoots only have to fill the water jacket once and its enough for the day of shooting though its not being worked like in combat most of the time. At the end of one of my videos you can see the steam blowing from a Vickers after one 250 round belt. th-cam.com/video/kbeB2aE0eDc/w-d-xo.html
Mongo63a It really depends, but safe sustained firing could be had as long as the barrel remained under water. I'm honestly surprised that flat bottomed water jackets weren't used, though that may be a good indication that they were a bad idea. Edit. I actually looked at the 1917 after reading this and the placement of the barrel at the bottom of the jacket is basically what my mind had meant and also keeps the extra step of flattening the bottom out.
Years ago I met a World War 2 vet of the Royal Marines. He was on a machine gun crew that used a water cooled gun. He said that they used to fire off a bunch of rounds so that they could drain hot water out of the cooling jacket to make tea. Nice use of expensive ammo.
I can't say enough about the quality and accuracy of the historical information provided by Mr. McCollum. His videos are always interesting and entertaining and certainly informative. Thanks again.
I understand. But can't Mormons have multiple wives? That would even it out a little, at least for me. If they don't all live at the same place of course! ;)
TonyNewJersey1 It was only during the mid 1800's due to how many husbands died on the trail to Utah. Today the church condemns the practice. (Source: am Mormon)
Marcus Borderlands the “they only adopted polygamy because so many men died” is a nice bit of apologetics, but it simply isn’t true. Joseph Smith began the practice of plural marriage long before he published his “revelation” on the subject. He had two dozen ‘wives’, some of whom were already married to living husbands and one of whom was recorded to be 14 years old. Sources: 1. Was a Mormon for 28 years 2. CESletter.com
Captain BaseBallBat-Boy I wouldn’t go that far to say it’s incredibly disappointing. I enjoyed the series, only I agree it isn’t as good as Band of Brothers
My father led a heavy machine gun squad in the ETO and although he seldom talked of his experiences, I recall he told me they rarely fired aimed shots at enemy troops. He said their primary mission was to sweep designated areas with their fire and deny the Germans access. Hence, the calibrated traverse and elevation settings on the tripod.
It's actually in the infantry manual (or was 30 years ago) to pre-mark your sectors and fields of fire in the tripod Travers and Elevation mechanism so you can still sweep your assigned sector in case of night action or smoke.
Great video, Ian. The only thing even more rare than that 1917 Tripod is one that still has the traverse worm gear mechanism still intact! Mine is missing that as well, sadly. Another historical note on these, to add to your discussion of the weakness of the bottom plates: all the guns that remained in service after WWI received the reinforcing stirrup, which was the band-aid approach to strengthen the assembly. You are aware of that, certainly. The gun you had here is a rare one to have NOT been retrofitted as you point out. But while developing the 1918 Aircraft Gun at the end of that year, Marlin-Rockwell developed a fix for the cracking bottom plates, so that the stirrup was not needed. Unfortunately, virtually all the guns had been built before these changes could be introduced into production. While the limited production 1918 Aircraft models might have benefited (few were made), it was too late for the 1917s.
I just laugh at today's youtuber's, who cant deliver they're under 10 minute video's without looking at a screen or papers, when I see Ian giving such a detailed history by only looking at the subject matter it self for words while speaking. Really detailed history and in such a concentrated format, c'est magnifique! :D
I love the 1917 A1M4 I've built up 3 from kits and have only one more to build. There fun and expensive to shoot any more. They were a ton of fun when surplus ammo was only 5 cents a rd and it was already belted.
There were a lot of these used by the British Home Guard in WW2, my grandfathers unit had one along with P14 rifles, Thompson M1928's, BAR's. Later the Sten would replace the Thompson's as they were issued to the regular Army.
My grandfather's favorite, MG/sgt, 42 div, always works and it will heat your soup; he said up and down you would hear a couple of belts run off, the another and another, cooking soup or stew.
John Browning was a gun god. His designs were far ahead of time and when implemented in WW1, was clearly vastly superior to any of those European forces ever have.
8:31 - Assuming, of course, that the steam-discharge hose doesn't get clogged (in which case steam buildup will raise the pressure within the water jacket, increasing the boiling point of the water in the jacket and allowing it to get hotter than 100C) and that the water in the jacket doesn't boil completely dry (in which case the steam filling the jacket will start to heat beyond 100C).
Even uses the same headspace and timing gauges as the M1917. Or at least the plain M2 .50cals did. The M2A1 finally stopped needing to be headspaced with each barrel change.
My understanding was that the Vickers and other water-cooled HMGs of the period were also extraordinarily reliable. In that context, it seems odd that the French officers would be so surprised to see one running without malfunctions. Have I misunderstood something or had those particular officers only dealt with their own (presumably less reliable) Hotchkiss guns? As an aside, I assume being gigantic and heavy and mounted on a tripod helps mitigate some of the known issues with recoil operation? You can't exactly hold it wrong when it sits on a tripod and weighs that much.
one of the mayor complains of the Vickers if I remember was that it was really heavy. like it was a chore to swing the gun facing one way to face another way. sure not to bad if it was stationary and firing on one point but if you was a gunner and had to keep as much of a front under suppressive fire. been able to swing the gun back and forth a few times before getting fatigued is something you will start to consider. another thing was that one of the current HMG was that it was way to complicated, expensive and well a bit of the colling worked but nothing else. A water-cooled gun is only going to get you so far if the reciver/feeding mechanic is faulty. and that is something the M1917 did good all its pieces minus that bottom plate worked and it worked well and you could swing it around whit out getting sore after 10 seconds.
the French had Hotchkiss and Chauchat for their automatic firepower in WW1. the Hotchkiss was pretty reliable but was air cooled with large metal 'rings' for lack of a better term on the barrel to help dissipate heat, but still needed a barrel change every 1000 rounds of ''continuous fire''. The chauchat has an infamous reputation as unreliable and being generally awful, but its more so due to the magazine design than the mechanics of the weapon itself which actually runs quite well. having an open sided magazine in a trench that pretty much rested in the mud was an almost guarantee that mud would get into the gun and any automatic fails at that point. if the officers' only experience was with chauchat and Hotchkiss then seeing a gun that can go through multiple 1000s of rounds without requiring a barrel change and not using awkward metal belts but instead a 250 rounds cloth belt would definitely be impressive. gotta remember this was the earliest days of standard automatic weapons we know today so with hindsight it seems obvious, but for them they are seeing a brand new wonder weapon in the Browning when it's compared to what they know.
James Healy like most of the problems with those guns were things not entirely related to the gun, belts and the delinker/feed system are usually most of the problem. also going into ww1 nobody expected to have to cycle hundreds of thousands of rounds through any single gun
ya i knew it but i couldn't for the life of me remember it at the time and since copy pasting from google isn't really a comment just an explanation i used what i knew/remembered ^^
Thanks for quality content Ian, I'm using this video as a source in an undergraduate economics paper about how national defense works (or doesn't) as a public good. Wish me luck!
If JMB lived another 100 years there is no doubt in my mind he would have been building energy weapons before his end. The dude never stopped evolving.
You do a great job !!! Having owned and fired over a hundred thousand rounds through 1917A1"s LOL My hands are greasy from one now !! The cork is for plugging the barrel hole so not to loose your water on a barrel change (tilt the gun down hard)
This video is actually kind of funny in regards to Battlefield 1 (sorry Ian, I'm sure you hear comparisons a lot) because in that game the soldiers are actually able to just tote this gun around like a lewis gun.
John Moses Browning was a freaking genius....❤❤ Got an A-5 Browning Autoloader 12 gauge from the same year I wuz hatched...😂 (1955)... It's been modified. It's an A-8 now..!!!! Home defense monster killer.......
I can across three examples of the potato digger at the military museum in Bogota, Colombia. In later years after the remodeling on the museum one was removed to storage. The good news is they did keep the various Gatling on display
This machine gun weighs over a 100 lbs when fully loaded with a 250 round box magazine and yet people in battlefield are carrying it around like a paper weight.
Also the whole story of this beating the Vickers in the trial when it had parts breakage with "only" 40 thousand rounds sounds very sketchy. Considering the British were getting Vickers to hundreds of thousands without such issues.
@Doc Purps If you are looking to defend a fixed position against infantry assault, you could choose any number of modern machine guns less suitable than the Vickers. There is no currently fielded machine gun of any type in any military that could beat a Vickers gun for reliability or volume of fire.
@@TheFanatical1 thats true, but human wave assaults against fixed positions arent really a thing anymore because its suicidal. there really isnt a need for that kind of sustained fire, and water cooling is a huge disadvantage in every other area. for any army with enough soldiers to employ such tactics to do so, the world would probably have to be in a pretty desperate state. who knows, though...
Invents the Gas Operated Machine gun, it's too far ahead of its time, so makes a recoil-operated one that can shoot 40k rounds straight. What a badass.
If the water jacket is reasonably tight, then when the gun cools the vacuum in the water jacket should suck up a good part of the water that passed as steam into the condenser. Ian is absolutely right with the explanation, it works as a constant-temperature device. The Vickers was the first with this more intricate plumbing, and the Russian version "Maksim" had a huge filling plug you could force snow into. Presumably it would land on a trough lengthwise at the top of the jacket, where the steam collects and not directly on the barrel, which might not be very good if the barrel had overheated. The glands at the ends of the jacket may be asbestos, beware.
Browning made machine guns still in use with the US Military today, notably this thing’s bigger cousin the M2 .50 cal. He also designed the m1911 pistol, which was the standard issue US pistol for nearly 70 years. Dude was probably the best gun designer ever
Now that you've mentioned the "Potato Digger" machine gun, I wish you'd get a look at one and tell its history and mechanics sometime! It seems to be one of the indeed forgotten weapons, for comparability - Maxim and its licensed derivatives, Hotchkiss and Lewis are from the same era, but they seem to be much better remembered, even though Browning M1895 too had seen actual and substantial combat with Belgian troops in WWI, at least that's what I remember reading.
TIL how water cooled machine guns worked. I legitimately always thought the water was circulated by some sort of pump mechanism, not just by the steam itself. Huh.
Wouldn't the water come pouring down through that steam plug, since it's at the bottom? Or is there some sort of tubing that collects the steam from the top and the pressure pushes it all the way down to the plug, and to the condesing vessel?
I dug up a tripod strap retainer of this gun at Waialua in 2014. It was probably lost there during WWII when any guns on hand would have been rushed there after Dec. 7th. The area was a dump, at the edge of the Waialua Plantation Co. dairy. Later concrete pillboxes were put in. These are ruined now, maybe in part by the April 1, 1946 tsunami, or by age. I was digging for old bottles, and also found a 1915 Territorial Motor Cycle tag, #8. I also found a 1917 bicycle tag. A few old bottles too.
I also found .30/06 casings, FA 08, today I found an FA29 next to an FA40. I have found a lot of 1918 casings-taken out of magazines as the Emergency period heated up in 1940?
Just came across this good presentation and will offer a couple observations. Unfortunately the manufacturer of the 1917 is not identified but is most likely Westinghouse as that maker is most represented in the registry. Both Remington and Colt are represented by at least two, both confirmed, and maybe four registered examples to account for unconfirmed registrations. So, all makes are very scarce, and the correct 1917 tripods even more scarce. The fine traverses mechanism installed in the tripod head is missing, a pivotal element of the 1917 tripods which would have added to the history of this review. The commentator notes that the rear sight is graduated to 2800 yards, but these guns used sights calibrated in meters due to the topographical maps in use in France were in that measure. Both the gun and steel components of the tripod have been reblued. Looks very trim and crisp. FWIW
One point about water cooling, it only keeps that limit of 100°c if pressure can be relieved. Water under pressure can't boil, a cars radiator demonstrates this well. The water and barrel will take longer to reach the point of overheating but it will get there will enough continuous fire. This can be incredibly dangerous as sudden release of pressure, again car radiators show this well, will cause flash boiling and a jet of superheated steam. That stuff will mess you up, instant burns sometimes 3rd or 4th degree, we're talking skin bubbling straight off in extreme cases. To make water cooling work and to make sure 100°c is the limit, a water cooling system must have a means to relieve pressure so that water can in fact boil. Since water has a specific heat capacity of 4.8j (the energy required to heat 1ml by 1°c), a 1gal jacket (approx 4.5l) can take 1,728,000J of additional thermal energy assuming the water goes in at 20°c and exits at 100°c. It only weighs 4.5kg and obviously can be drained to save weight when moving the gun. Plus that thermal energy is being slowly dissipated by the larger jacket. If we say that jacket is 70cm long and 10cm in diameter, that's a potential 2279cm² cooling area, and that's assuming the rear face of the water jacket is obstructed and therefore not involved in cooling. A barrel 1" or 2.54cm in diameter (super heavy for a 7.62mm bore) and 75cm long (let's be generous and assume this crazy over built MG has a bit sticking clear of the water jacket) would only have 599cm² cooling area but would weigh a considerable amount, even with the bore drilled out. Definitely more economical to water cool.
As far as the temp of the water jacket and burning ones hands... boiling water may be 100C/212F but condensing steam delivers around 260C/500F so the heat released from the top of the water jacket housing (correct term?) is quite likely to fry ones hand same as a frying pan hot enough to make your cooking oil smoke. It takes far more energy to convert water to steam than it does to raise it’s temp up to that point. (Decades ago high school physics)
Interesting physics. Where is the energy come from that heat up steam from 100 °C to 260 °C and how it does that on an open end system? The steam can't be hotter than the water.
Lesson to learn: If John Moses Browning is making a gun, adopt it. Edit: Oh wow! Winchester did exactly that! Went to a meeting for something unrelated, saw Browning was making a trapdoor rifle that was better than the new Winchester and offered to buy it when it was ready. That's actually badass! Check out the vid Ian did on that rifle, here: th-cam.com/video/kx6xaNab5Es/w-d-xo.html
I've been watching Forgotten Weapons for a couple of years now, and I'm beginning to get the idea that this John Moses Browning guy was pretty good with guns.
Eks calybur Thar would be an understatement of his skills and talent.
Could not Agree More 🇺🇸😊🇺🇸
It seems like he had a few good ideas, and perhaps more importantly, good execution.
Laird Cummings well said 😎
Just a little bit, the man was a genius
Reading McBride's "A rifleman went to war" it was interesting to find that machine guns like this were originally considered 'artillery'. That tripod allowed for very precise defilade fire.
When you just consider the casualties they were dishing out, that was probably a more accurate classification really.
That’s exactly what they were. Before mortars medium MG were the principal area denial stand off weapon.
A ww2 vet told me before he passed that he was the ammunition guy for a m1917a1 during the pacific theater in ww2. He said the gun was fantastic and told many stories about it. He even got General MacArthur his morning coffee when he was a MP in occupied Japan. Thanks for the vid on this awesome gun
The gun was rock solid. Outdated by WW II standards, but still rock solid.
@Beef Stew
I thought that you were about to say that he used the machine gun to boil the water for MacArthur's coffee.
@@ianmacfarlane1241 boiling water infused with smokeless powder smoke make best coffee
Pour out the water from the shroud after firing a few thousand rounds.
It'll work, I swear.
I have one of the wooden ammo boxes; I found it in my grandparents' basement. My grandfather probably bought it in a surplus store after the war. He was about 15 when the U.S. went to war and convinced the army recruiters that he was 16, which required parental permission for enlistment. His father was a German immigrant, and veteran of the Franco-Prussian War, and did not want his son fighting against his former countrymen, so he would not sign the permission.
My bosses dad had about 30 of them at one time. Used them for kindling and storage. There's only one left now
Its one thing to try to go to war against your old man's ethnicity.
*Its another to go to war against the same exact military your old man used to be in.*
That story went a little whacky towards the end. I was not expecting that.
Spoicyy
I have a kinda similar story. My great grandfather wanted to fight in WW1, but his parents (especially his father) really didn't want him to go and help the British as they were Irish and hated the Brits with a burning passion for obvious reasons. He went to fight anyway and was promptly disowned for more then 25 years.
My grandfather was a crewman on this MG in WWI. He served in the120th Machine Gun Battalion and wounded in the Argonne Forest.
same. my grandfather got gassed in argonne. probably rode an M1917 just like this
Was he 79th division?
@@Autobotmatt428 C Co., 120th MGB, 32nd Division Red Arrow..
Dude thats so badass to see the ww1 ancestry come forward
Growing up in Springfield I met many old timers who worked directly with Browning. All held him in awe.
"At the fierce battle of Momote Airstrip in the Admiralties, the US Army's 5th Cavalry machine gunners killed several hundred Japanese in one night using their M1917 Brownings; one gun was left in position after the battle as a memorial to the desperate struggle"
A gun that simply doesn't stop working really is frightning. When JMB desinged a gun, he made sure that it worked. Period. And that's what a soldier essentially wants: A gun which he can rely on when things get bad.
"That was fun, y'all wanna shoot another twenty thousand?"
...and honestly, thats probably how it happened. xD
The good old days before ammo taxes.
"It's been issued out to us, I'd rather shoot it than turn it back in!"
40k rounds and one failure, which wasn't even the gun's fault?
Damn, that's four times the whole expected lifetime of some modern weapons...
No sir. One failure which *was* the gun's fault. The remainder (an unspecified amount) were due to bad ammo or belts.
Big deal, see my comment.
The British Vickers gun was tested and fired for 7 days continuously with no flaws, only stopping to feed a new belt, replace worn out barrels and change the crew every half hour.
@@Cervando Huh. Must have wiped out the entire Red Army by the time they had finished.
@@underpaidmook It was actually done as a test long after the war, using a surplus gun and ammo after they replaced the Vickers.
At the Marine Corps machine gun leaders course on Camp Geiger, they have one of these completely chromed.
Brian Anderson oh boy Jacksonville, not fond of that town.
Brian you know what I mean, not only stationed there For SOI, but lived there, my estranged wife and kids still do. 2016-2017. Nothing there no jobs worth having unless affiliated with the Corps.
Yeah, was there from 98-02, I`m sure it hasn't improved much. The base IS the town. If your a 19yo Lcpl and like tattoo`s, strippers and getting drunk, no problem. But I sure as hell wouldn't want to raise a family there.
Brian Anderson 89-90, stationed camp Geiger. Lived there 2016-early 2017, oh and don't forget the barbershops, never have seen so many. There has been some growth. The have extended Western Blvd out and built up along the new part. But it really isn't much improved. Downtown around camp Johnson is still a dump.
It's a shame it fell out of favor with concealed carriers in the past few decades
Ah yes, open carrying my M1917 Browning machine gun with it's tripod
The problem is one of stopping power. Concealed carry is only good if it has the terminal effectiveness too.
@@alifr4088 idk why but I can only see that happening in a Walmart
@@reginaldsafety6090 you questioned the stopping power of .30-06?
@@alifr4088that’s exactly what you do in Battlefield 1 lmao you can just run around and sprint with a fucking Maxim MG shooting it with the thumb trigger
Just imagine firing 40 000 rounds in one sitting. I can't. Not even that the gun survives it, just the freaking amount of brass.
I have been involved in firing a hundred odd thousand rounds at a time. We used shovels and sand bags to clean up the empty brass.
BIIGtony
Google the WW I German Maxim gun that fired just shy of a million rounds. As I recall it was all in one battle.
Paul Shayter When the Brits were leaving 303 they decided to expend their reserves at a particular base in an extreme stress test of a Vicker's. Something like 5 million rounds over several days, alternating crews. Gun was completely in spec afterwards.
SgtKOnyx,
Yeah but that doesn't sound like the story I had heard, and although I don't recall who or from wear I was told the story it was a reputable source, maybe Gary James but I'm not certain. But the story I heard invloved the Germans and it was in battle and it was one machine gun.
Paul Shayter I wasn't trying to correct your story, I was telling a different one.
My father's gun when he was a 19 year old draftee...arrived in Belgium Dec 15. 1944, big welcoming surprise the very next day,,, a little dust-up referred to as the Battle Of the Bulge. RIP, pops. you were a good man.
I actually trained on a M1919 in the Canadian Army Reserve a few decades ago.
My late friend Acie Taylor of Geneva, AL was 135 lbs. and carried and operated one of these from Utah Beach to Czechoslovakia, with the Hurtegen Forest in between. Acie was a member of the Order of the Purple Heart among other awards. RIP amigo.
Jay Felsberg
Hurtegen and Utah? God Bless him.
I have loved every one of my 4 - 1919A4 that I've built. I purchased 5 kits back in 1993 when they were dirt cheap. Like $150 a kit or $750 for 5 kits. I noticed that in Sept of 2020 these kits were selling for $1795 each! So now I building my last kit gun & these things are awesome.
I really love the classic feel of the WWI machine guns!
That fact that those designs are over a century old only makes it so much more amazing!
Ian, the plug on the chain is not used for the steam condensing hose port but it used when pulling the barrel/operating group from the gun. The gun is pointed at a downward muzzle angle and as the barrel/operating group is pulled out of the back of the gun the stopper is used to plug the barrel packing hole to keep the water from running out. This allowed the gun to be cleaned or a worn barrel to be changed without losing all your water. The downward angle kept the water from coming out of the trunion barrel channel.
you solved a mystery, thank you!
Would you by any chance know how often one would have had to refill the water jacket once operating temperature was reached and under sustained fire? If you test fired 20 000 rounds, could you do it on one fill up? Once the water was boiling, did you have to top up every few belts? Did you wait for it to run dry and then re fill?
I do not know but the condensing can is not perfect and has losses due to some steam. That coupled with the normal leaks at the barrel packing glands means that there will always be required make up water for the gun. One belt will get the water int he jacket hot enough to blow like a steam loco. That said, many guys at MG shoots only have to fill the water jacket once and its enough for the day of shooting though its not being worked like in combat most of the time. At the end of one of my videos you can see the steam blowing from a Vickers after one 250 round belt. th-cam.com/video/kbeB2aE0eDc/w-d-xo.html
Mongo63a It really depends, but safe sustained firing could be had as long as the barrel remained under water. I'm honestly surprised that flat bottomed water jackets weren't used, though that may be a good indication that they were a bad idea.
Edit. I actually looked at the 1917 after reading this and the placement of the barrel at the bottom of the jacket is basically what my mind had meant and also keeps the extra step of flattening the bottom out.
Years ago I met a World War 2 vet of the Royal Marines. He was on a machine gun crew that used a water cooled gun. He said that they used to fire off a bunch of rounds so that they could drain hot water out of the cooling jacket to make tea. Nice use of expensive ammo.
I can't say enough about the quality and accuracy of the historical information provided by Mr. McCollum. His videos are always interesting and entertaining and certainly informative. Thanks again.
Now lug it around Battlefield 1 style.
That pistol grip is hilarious.
Matthew Doye IKR its just this huge machine gun and then an itty bitty pistol grip
It’s just funny how they didn’t use the double grip button-trigger system
makes it illegal in california
@@wehex6947 I guess the magazine capacity is a bit high as well.
And so it began
The explanation of the water cooling was particularly helpful. Thank you.
As for hot water jackets look at John Basilone and his MOH on Guadalcanal during WW2 he got a good burn from the gun as he lost his asbestos glove
John Moses Browning was LDS, so couldn't drink alcohol or coffee. This made him very angry and he vented that suppressed rage into gun design.
Being Mormon was his only flaw . . .
I understand. But can't Mormons have multiple wives? That would even it out a little, at least for me. If they don't all live at the same place of course! ;)
TonyNewJersey1 It was only during the mid 1800's due to how many husbands died on the trail to Utah. Today the church condemns the practice. (Source: am Mormon)
Thank you. I always thought the opposite was true. Makes sense though. Have a great day!
Marcus Borderlands the “they only adopted polygamy because so many men died” is a nice bit of apologetics, but it simply isn’t true. Joseph Smith began the practice of plural marriage long before he published his “revelation” on the subject. He had two dozen ‘wives’, some of whom were already married to living husbands and one of whom was recorded to be 14 years old.
Sources: 1. Was a Mormon for 28 years 2. CESletter.com
"World Master Machine Gun Mechanic"
Pretty fitting for Our Lord and Savior John Moses Browning.
Vincent Simbe his great grand father was from colchester essex UK lol
@@mre.w.2850 yep, most people in the us were only a few generations away from Britain or Europe at that point lol.
*John Basilone intensifies*
MyNameIsMud oorah
Primus sucks
@@numbermunch916 you're a toolbag
@@johnballs1352 tool is a good band too
@@numbermunch916 Primus sucks!
United States Marines John Basilone, and Mitchell Paige were awarded the Medal of Honor for actions on Guadalcanal with m1917 machine guns.
alex fogg
Are there any movie about this?
Sound interesting.
Dereenaldo Ambun john basilone is featured in the HBO tv series The Pacific
Jeremy Weaver
Thanks.
Jeremy Weaver word of warning: The Pacific is incredibly disappointing. Not even half as good as Band of Brothers.
Captain BaseBallBat-Boy I wouldn’t go that far to say it’s incredibly disappointing. I enjoyed the series, only I agree it isn’t as good as Band of Brothers
My father led a heavy machine gun squad in the ETO and although he seldom talked of his experiences, I recall he told me they rarely fired aimed shots at enemy troops. He said their primary mission was to sweep designated areas with their fire and deny the Germans access. Hence, the calibrated traverse and elevation settings on the tripod.
It's actually in the infantry manual (or was 30 years ago) to pre-mark your sectors and fields of fire in the tripod Travers and Elevation mechanism so you can still sweep your assigned sector in case of night action or smoke.
Great video, Ian. The only thing even more rare than that 1917 Tripod is one that still has the traverse worm gear mechanism still intact! Mine is missing that as well, sadly. Another historical note on these, to add to your discussion of the weakness of the bottom plates: all the guns that remained in service after WWI received the reinforcing stirrup, which was the band-aid approach to strengthen the assembly. You are aware of that, certainly. The gun you had here is a rare one to have NOT been retrofitted as you point out. But while developing the 1918 Aircraft Gun at the end of that year, Marlin-Rockwell developed a fix for the cracking bottom plates, so that the stirrup was not needed. Unfortunately, virtually all the guns had been built before these changes could be introduced into production. While the limited production 1918 Aircraft models might have benefited (few were made), it was too late for the 1917s.
I just laugh at today's youtuber's, who cant deliver they're under 10 minute video's without looking at a screen or papers, when I see Ian giving such a detailed history by only looking at the subject matter it self for words while speaking. Really detailed history and in such a concentrated format, c'est magnifique! :D
He has used teleprompters lol. Almost everybody speaking at length does.
Used in every major American conflict from 1917 up until the late 1960's. Truly one of the worlds most innovative machine guns.
How exactly was the M1917 innovative? Reliable, granted but essentially derivative in employment and methodology to maxim based guns.
Beautiful piece of kit. Browning sure was the man when it came to guns. Thank you for sharing Mr. Ian.
Browning is a genius. If I lived in that time, I would buy his 1911, trombone, model 8 and model 17.
I love the 1917 A1M4 I've built up 3 from kits and have only one more to build. There fun and expensive to shoot any more. They were a ton of fun when surplus ammo was only 5 cents a rd and it was already belted.
I'm off to watch The Pacific again to see these babies in action.
There were a lot of these used by the British Home Guard in WW2, my grandfathers unit had one along with P14 rifles, Thompson M1928's, BAR's. Later the Sten would replace the Thompson's as they were issued to the regular Army.
I learn so much from your videos. Nice closeup views of the weapons. The M1917 is a wonderfully engineered gun.
My grandfather's favorite, MG/sgt, 42 div, always works and it will heat your soup; he said up and down you would hear a couple of belts run off, the another and another, cooking soup or stew.
John Browning was a gun god. His designs were far ahead of time and when implemented in WW1, was clearly vastly superior to any of those European forces ever have.
Love your vids. I'm doing a school project on John Browning and this makes it a hell of a lot easier.
8:31 - Assuming, of course, that the steam-discharge hose doesn't get clogged (in which case steam buildup will raise the pressure within the water jacket, increasing the boiling point of the water in the jacket and allowing it to get hotter than 100C) and that the water in the jacket doesn't boil completely dry (in which case the steam filling the jacket will start to heat beyond 100C).
Why is John Browning so good with guns?
Stanislaus Kitagaul he was the original gun Jeasus
KaiserRolls Chicken that doesn't answer the question.
KaiserRolls Chicken AMERICA?
You might even say he was Gun Moses.
Well his father was pretty good with them too
Nice Video, if you have the opportunity please do one about the Browning M2 from ww2, specially about the aircraft models.
Dang Nab it! I don't think i'll ever catch up on all these fantastic videos! Thanks Ian.
Definitely up to your usual standards. Fine work. Keep 'em coming!
Great explanation of the water cooling there, thanks Ian.
very cool to see the basic design and guts look remarkably similar to the M2, and to think we still rely on it today for our HMG of choice.
The M2HB is essentially a scaled up M1919, which is essentially an air cooled M1917. Very similar mechanically
Even uses the same headspace and timing gauges as the M1917. Or at least the plain M2 .50cals did. The M2A1 finally stopped needing to be headspaced with each barrel change.
Great video! Particularly interesting as My Grandfather crewed a machine gun in the South Pacific in WWII. I have to believe it was a 1919A1.
My understanding was that the Vickers and other water-cooled HMGs of the period were also extraordinarily reliable. In that context, it seems odd that the French officers would be so surprised to see one running without malfunctions. Have I misunderstood something or had those particular officers only dealt with their own (presumably less reliable) Hotchkiss guns?
As an aside, I assume being gigantic and heavy and mounted on a tripod helps mitigate some of the known issues with recoil operation? You can't exactly hold it wrong when it sits on a tripod and weighs that much.
one of the mayor complains of the Vickers if I remember was that it was really heavy. like it was a chore to swing the gun facing one way to face another way.
sure not to bad if it was stationary and firing on one point but if you was a gunner and had to keep as much of a front under suppressive fire.
been able to swing the gun back and forth a few times before getting fatigued is something you will start to consider.
another thing was that one of the current HMG was that it was way to complicated, expensive and well a bit of the colling worked but nothing else.
A water-cooled gun is only going to get you so far if the reciver/feeding mechanic is faulty.
and that is something the M1917 did good all its pieces minus that bottom plate worked and it worked well and you could swing it around whit out getting sore after 10 seconds.
the French had Hotchkiss and Chauchat for their automatic firepower in WW1. the Hotchkiss was pretty reliable but was air cooled with large metal 'rings' for lack of a better term on the barrel to help dissipate heat, but still needed a barrel change every 1000 rounds of ''continuous fire''. The chauchat has an infamous reputation as unreliable and being generally awful, but its more so due to the magazine design than the mechanics of the weapon itself which actually runs quite well. having an open sided magazine in a trench that pretty much rested in the mud was an almost guarantee that mud would get into the gun and any automatic fails at that point. if the officers' only experience was with chauchat and Hotchkiss then seeing a gun that can go through multiple 1000s of rounds without requiring a barrel change and not using awkward metal belts but instead a 250 rounds cloth belt would definitely be impressive. gotta remember this was the earliest days of standard automatic weapons we know today so with hindsight it seems obvious, but for them they are seeing a brand new wonder weapon in the Browning when it's compared to what they know.
James Healy like most of the problems with those guns were things not entirely related to the gun, belts and the delinker/feed system are usually most of the problem.
also going into ww1 nobody expected to have to cycle hundreds of thousands of rounds through any single gun
"large metal 'rings' for lack of a better term"
the correct term you're looking for is "cooling fins"
ya i knew it but i couldn't for the life of me remember it at the time and since copy pasting from google isn't really a comment just an explanation i used what i knew/remembered ^^
This gun is so fun to use in battlefield 1 multiplayer,especially with "An Escalation" skin
But it isn't munted on a tripod ingame,but a bipod
Thanks for quality content Ian, I'm using this video as a source in an undergraduate economics paper about how national defense works (or doesn't) as a public good. Wish me luck!
Good friend of mine served during the early days of ww2 in the pacific.
He was a machine gunner.
He's saids he operated a water cooled machine gun.
If JMB lived another 100 years there is no doubt in my mind he would have been building energy weapons before his end. The dude never stopped evolving.
This thing is an absolute monster. Looks like fun!!
I dug up the brass I.D. plate/strap guide of an Browning tripod. I have it to a friend whom is a Nat'l guard veteran.
You do a great job !!! Having owned and fired over a hundred thousand rounds through 1917A1"s LOL My hands are greasy from one now !! The cork is for plugging the barrel hole so not to loose your water on a barrel change (tilt the gun down hard)
Why am I thinking "I want Ian for my kid's birthday party"? Maybe it's listening to his tale while he sits like that.
This video is actually kind of funny in regards to Battlefield 1 (sorry Ian, I'm sure you hear comparisons a lot) because in that game the soldiers are actually able to just tote this gun around like a lewis gun.
What a fascinating machine! Thanks for this video!
Man... These cats named Moses love their seas of red
I get the feeling that Ian is going to bid on this
Maybe he should have a GoFundme drive to buy it. Then hold a contest drawing, with the winner getting a trip out to Tucson to shoot it.
This gun is in call of duty world at war
@@sarahrigdon6774 That was the M1919
Imagine going into battle with a gun designed by your father.
John Moses Browning was a freaking genius....❤❤
Got an A-5 Browning Autoloader 12 gauge from the same year I wuz hatched...😂
(1955)... It's been modified. It's an A-8 now..!!!! Home defense monster killer.......
The perfect gun for teaching your kids efficiency and teamwork
Always loved the American 17 more than the British and German models. More comfortable to use and just looks better.
I can across three examples of the potato digger at the military museum in Bogota, Colombia. In later years after the remodeling on the museum one was removed to storage. The good news is they did keep the various Gatling on display
7:03 so val browning can say "ini saya punya senjata.. Saya bapak punya senjata" #proudmoment
This guy is a great communicator and historian!
Great explanation on how the water cooling works. I did not know there was that much to it.
you the man! I feel like I learn something every episode (often many times per episode)
What caliber was this, 30-06?
Yes.
This is WW1 America, why WOULDNT it be a .30-06 cal?
This machine gun weighs over a 100 lbs when fully loaded with a 250 round box magazine and yet people in battlefield are carrying it around like a paper weight.
It looks like a small pistol is stuck in the back. The entire design is so awkward, I love it
Vickers..... out of date?
Wash your mouth out Ian!
I've never such filthy talk about such a beautiful thing.
@Doc Purps *grammar.
@Doc Purps You should probably check yours, and your spelling, before saying things like that...
Also the whole story of this beating the Vickers in the trial when it had parts breakage with "only" 40 thousand rounds sounds very sketchy. Considering the British were getting Vickers to hundreds of thousands without such issues.
@Doc Purps If you are looking to defend a fixed position against infantry assault, you could choose any number of modern machine guns less suitable than the Vickers. There is no currently fielded machine gun of any type in any military that could beat a Vickers gun for reliability or volume of fire.
@@TheFanatical1 thats true, but human wave assaults against fixed positions arent really a thing anymore because its suicidal. there really isnt a need for that kind of sustained fire, and water cooling is a huge disadvantage in every other area.
for any army with enough soldiers to employ such tactics to do so, the world would probably have to be in a pretty desperate state. who knows, though...
Invents the Gas Operated Machine gun, it's too far ahead of its time, so makes a recoil-operated one that can shoot 40k rounds straight. What a badass.
The carry holster for this must be wild
Thanks for the explanation on exactly how water cooling works.
If the water jacket is reasonably tight, then when the gun cools the vacuum in the water jacket should suck up a good part of the water that passed as steam into the condenser. Ian is absolutely right with the explanation, it works as a constant-temperature device. The Vickers was the first with this more intricate plumbing, and the Russian version "Maksim" had a huge filling plug you could force snow into. Presumably it would land on a trough lengthwise at the top of the jacket, where the steam collects and not directly on the barrel, which might not be very good if the barrel had overheated. The glands at the ends of the jacket may be asbestos, beware.
That’s crazy how the barrel will never overheat unless you have water , it’s kinda ingenious yet I still can’t wrap my head around it 😂
Browning made the first semi auto shotgun, too? This guy is a legend.
Browning made machine guns still in use with the US Military today, notably this thing’s bigger cousin the M2 .50 cal. He also designed the m1911 pistol, which was the standard issue US pistol for nearly 70 years. Dude was probably the best gun designer ever
Man you know a videos gonna be comfy when Ian is sitting on the floor next to a big piece of ordinance
Now that you've mentioned the "Potato Digger" machine gun, I wish you'd get a look at one and tell its history and mechanics sometime!
It seems to be one of the indeed forgotten weapons, for comparability - Maxim and its licensed derivatives, Hotchkiss and Lewis are from the same era, but they seem to be much better remembered, even though Browning M1895 too had seen actual and substantial combat with Belgian troops in WWI, at least that's what I remember reading.
I've used one of these... On BF1... Hope I get the chance to try one out on a range at some point.
Commented before Laird Cummings.
impossibru
True story. Beat him by a full minute.
Seriously, what is that guys deal?
He's there on top just about every single video of Ian's I've seen...
Patrick Donohoe He likes Ian's videos and perhaps has things to say about the subject at hand?
Between him and Golden Caulk tho
TIL how water cooled machine guns worked. I legitimately always thought the water was circulated by some sort of pump mechanism, not just by the steam itself. Huh.
I didn't even know they tried to collect the steam, I just figured they topped it off when it was low with fresh water
Thats one hell of a beautiful machine
Wouldn't the water come pouring down through that steam plug, since it's at the bottom? Or is there some sort of tubing that collects the steam from the top and the pressure pushes it all the way down to the plug, and to the condesing vessel?
There is a valve that closes off the bottom port.
Fantastic video and informative. I didn´t know how it works besides not give away the position.
Minus the malfunctions, that is almost a solid hour of firing.
I dug up a tripod strap retainer of this gun at Waialua in 2014. It was probably lost there during WWII when any guns on hand would have been rushed there after Dec. 7th. The area was a dump, at the edge of the Waialua Plantation Co. dairy. Later concrete pillboxes were put in. These are ruined now, maybe in part by the April 1, 1946 tsunami, or by age. I was digging for old bottles, and also found a 1915 Territorial Motor Cycle tag, #8. I also found a 1917 bicycle tag. A few old bottles too.
I also found .30/06 casings, FA 08, today I found an FA29 next to an FA40. I have found a lot of 1918 casings-taken out of magazines as the Emergency period heated up in 1940?
Just came across this good presentation and will offer a couple observations. Unfortunately the manufacturer of the 1917 is not identified but is most likely Westinghouse as that maker is most represented in the registry. Both Remington and Colt are represented by at least two, both confirmed, and maybe four registered examples to account for unconfirmed registrations. So, all makes are very scarce, and the correct 1917 tripods even more scarce. The fine traverses mechanism installed in the tripod head is missing, a pivotal element of the 1917 tripods which would have added to the history of this review. The commentator notes that the rear sight is graduated to 2800 yards, but these guns used sights calibrated in meters due to the topographical maps in use in France were in that measure. Both the gun and steel components of the tripod have been reblued. Looks very trim and crisp. FWIW
One point about water cooling, it only keeps that limit of 100°c if pressure can be relieved. Water under pressure can't boil, a cars radiator demonstrates this well. The water and barrel will take longer to reach the point of overheating but it will get there will enough continuous fire.
This can be incredibly dangerous as sudden release of pressure, again car radiators show this well, will cause flash boiling and a jet of superheated steam. That stuff will mess you up, instant burns sometimes 3rd or 4th degree, we're talking skin bubbling straight off in extreme cases.
To make water cooling work and to make sure 100°c is the limit, a water cooling system must have a means to relieve pressure so that water can in fact boil.
Since water has a specific heat capacity of 4.8j (the energy required to heat 1ml by 1°c), a 1gal jacket (approx 4.5l) can take 1,728,000J of additional thermal energy assuming the water goes in at 20°c and exits at 100°c. It only weighs 4.5kg and obviously can be drained to save weight when moving the gun. Plus that thermal energy is being slowly dissipated by the larger jacket. If we say that jacket is 70cm long and 10cm in diameter, that's a potential 2279cm² cooling area, and that's assuming the rear face of the water jacket is obstructed and therefore not involved in cooling. A barrel 1" or 2.54cm in diameter (super heavy for a 7.62mm bore) and 75cm long (let's be generous and assume this crazy over built MG has a bit sticking clear of the water jacket) would only have 599cm² cooling area but would weigh a considerable amount, even with the bore drilled out. Definitely more economical to water cool.
Lots of great information, here for all. I learned several things from this video an i am into guns! Great job!
As far as the temp of the water jacket and burning ones hands... boiling water may be 100C/212F but condensing steam delivers around 260C/500F so the heat released from the top of the water jacket housing (correct term?) is quite likely to fry ones hand same as a frying pan hot enough to make your cooking oil smoke. It takes far more energy to convert water to steam than it does to raise it’s temp up to that point. (Decades ago high school physics)
Interesting physics.
Where is the energy come from that heat up steam from 100 °C to 260 °C and how it does that on an open end system?
The steam can't be hotter than the water.
@@XtreeM_FaiL resesrch it.
Browning was a fucking genius. Plan and simple.
Man i love your channel
Lesson to learn: If John Moses Browning is making a gun, adopt it.
Edit: Oh wow! Winchester did exactly that! Went to a meeting for something unrelated, saw Browning was making a trapdoor rifle that was better than the new Winchester and offered to buy it when it was ready. That's actually badass! Check out the vid Ian did on that rifle, here: th-cam.com/video/kx6xaNab5Es/w-d-xo.html
God, just look at how well its made... no wonder why they rival the plague for a body count