Thanks for watching this!As we discussed in the video, the idea of a church covenant is different from the idea of a creed (I believe Daylan's church recites the creeds as well). A creed articulates essential orthodox belief and marks the boundaries of that orthodoxy, but speaks very little to the life of the local church community. A church covenant (as explained to me by Pastor Daylan) is more like a voluntary social contract between members of a local church to agree on how they'll treat each other and handle their business in the community. I think a Missionary Baptist would say that the Christian principles laid out in this particular church covenant flow from the essential doctrine of historical Christianity. Obviously some might disagree with some of the specifics in any given church covenant (If I were writing a church covenant I'd probably handle the part about alcohol differently), but the concept is excellent. It puts the basic social values of the group right up front so everyone knows what they're getting into, and so that someone considering joining the congregation can decide whether that's the kind of community they want to be a part of.
That conversation will be divided up over probably five videos, and the next one will come out in March. Glad you liked the first part enough to ask about the second!
Hi Matt, For the past 50 years or so, I've been a member of two Baptist churches. Both had a church covenant very similar or identical to this one. The first church (an independent, fundamental church) had the covenant pasted into the hymn books, but it was rarely referenced. The second church (founded nearly 150 years ago as a Swedish Baptist church), however, periodically has a "covenant reaffirmation" service. You mentioned that if you were writing a church covenant, you would probably handle the part about alcohol differently. Guess what. When the pastor of the second church first began his decades-long pastorate, one of the first things he did was change that part of the covenant. The amazing thing to me is that his respect for the Bible was so high that he made this risky move even though he himself was (and still is to this day) a teetotaler! I do see the value in these "covenants," but I see a danger as well: they can go beyond what the Bible says. In addition to this potentially danger, there is one quirk that I've noticed with this particular covenant. Near the end it says, "We moreover engage that when we remove from this place, we will, if possible, unite with a like-minded church where we can carry out the spirit of this covenant." I've often wondered why the original framers of the covenant considered that sentence necessary. I mean, if you love your church, but your job or something else moves you to a different part of the country/world, aren't you going to NATURALLY unite with a like-minded church? On the other hand, if for some reason you really cannot affirm the covenant any more, why would you want to unite with a like-minded church? Those quibbles aside, I was really impressed with how this pastor answered your questions. He seems like a great guy. I have a serious suggestion for you if you REALLY want to stir the pot with this series. Find a Biblical Unitarian pastor to interview (not to be confused with the Unitarian Universalist church!). I recommend Sean Finnegan, a pastor in upstate New York (restitutio.org/my-story/).
The Ten Minute Bible Hour I absolutely love your videos, especially when you conduct interviews. I wish there was a weekly upload so we can expect a video coming on a certain day of the week. Any plans to upload videos on a regular basis like that?
@@tyaucupis Glad you like the channel Ty; thanks for saying that! When I first started I did the scheduled upload thing for quite a while, but gradually I found myself needing to publish when the video is ready instead of what the calendar says. I think the content has improved as a result. So, all of that to say, I'm committed to my daily podcast, but can't commit the same way to a release schedule here. Thanks for your patience with me.
The Ten Minute Bible Hour understandable. Thank you for the response. I’m just little anxious for a new video to be posted I guess. It’s probably the day and age we live is where we don’t have to wait for the next episode of our favorite tv show to come out the following week or the next season. The Office just plays the next episode automatically haha.
potomaccrafter except he doesn’t. That’s borderline blasphemy. Reason why I say this is because the scriptures make it clear, the Holy Spirit brings unity and clarity. Not division and confusion. There’s disunity between many “churches” within the same denominations (ex all the many types of baptist and evangelicals). There can’t be unity in the one body if there’s multiple bodies expressing differing views. That’s schizophrenic theology. The funny thing about Protestants is that they are hung up on words whereas they claim Catholics are hung up on works. They attack Catholics for being legalistic but they themselves claim salvation via a legalistic statement, typically via the “sinners prayer” which by the way isn’t anywhere in scripture. Nor has Christ nor any disciple said to “ask Jesus into your heart” in ordered to be “saved”. There’s a lot of irony in what is even said in this video because these folks think Church pertains to one church building and their community they work with rather than a universal whole. If we are to believe in the words of Christ and the oneness of the Holy Trinity. Then one cannot remain Protestant. To do so and believe all denominations are the same is to say that there is disunity in the Trinity. It’s akin to pluralism and the heresy of belief that all faiths could lead to God. What it comes down to is if your “church” doesn’t serve the sacraments (Ex Eucharist, baptism etc) then you’re in the wrong religion. Period. As an Orthodox Christian we believe completely in the written word and the traditions handed down by the apostles. That includes belief in the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist (John 6:63). That includes the confessions of sins and receiving good council in order to avoid the sins we commit. As long as Protestantism exists the world we see Christians as self contradictory. As long as heresy exists we will loose the battle against the devil. This Protestant Church covenant is a silly rephrasing of the creed. Our covenant our creed is the faith the apostles handed down from Christ. It’s our example we see in our Lord and if it’s something he wouldn’t do, then we should strive to avoid commuting those sins.
@@mattbellacotti "Borderline blasphemy"?? I don't think so. The Holy Spirit spoke to individuals long before Christ was made Man. The Holy Spirit filled Mary. The Holy Spirit filled Elizabeth. The Holy Spirit spoke through all the prophets. The Holy Spirit came down on the first disciples at Pentecost. The Holy Spirit is the giver of every life, the advocate, the comforter, like the wind, in the cloud, at creation, in our hearts. No one can say "Jesus is Lord" except through the Spirit. All of the people Matt interviews have dedicated their lives to the notion of, and to declaring that "Jesus is Lord". Can it be true both that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Jesus and also that it is not? No--but it CAN be true that the Holy Spirit will bring us into all knowledge, and that we can trust God in His good time to bring clarity and unity to dispel the devil's deceptions. Meanwhile, the Holy Spirit in me responds with joy to the Holy Spirit I see in these good people all proclaiming that "Jesus is Lord"!!
Paul said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved." (Acts 16:31) He did not say that one must not misunderstand even one doctrine even a little bit or else he would not be saved. Because salvation is the work of the Holy Spirit (this is an idea that the Bible clearly teaches, and is not only found in Calvinist theology), we must conclude that anyone who believes in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation, and trusts Him alone to save them, must be evidence of the Holy Spirit at work. Christ is not divided, but even though various churches are divided from each other they can all be worked on and through by Him.
I love how the first two minutes are basically spent explaining the concept of concupiscence. The whole thing was really Catholic, both in describing how humans still have their natural gifts and capacity for natural virtue, and in describing how we still have a tendency to fall into sin.
tony does the Catholic Church deny the Father and the Son? That’s what an antichrist is, I doubt the Church Christ himself established is anti Christ take your protestant lenses off and stop protesting
One of the things that I really appreciated when I came back to the Catholic Church. The first comment (from Matt) does say that this church also recites the Creed on Sundays--as many evangelical congregations are beginning to do. I wonder if this covenant actually is more in line with the confiteor at Mass than the Creed.
Lutherans tend to recite the Apostles' Creed on non-communion Sundays and the Nicene Creed on communion Sundays. Some read the Athanasian Creed together on Trinity Sunday (the first Sunday after Pentecost, for those who are not familiar with the practice). I can see the value in a group recitation of a "horizontal" statement that deals with relationships among Christians as well, though I've never been aware of such a practice before seeing this video.
As a creedal Protestant, our denomination does the same at most services. These creeds are what binds the whole orthodox Catholic Church together. Notice I didn’t say Roman Catholic, though.
I see a lot of comments from people saying this is just the same as the Apostle, Nicene or Athanasian Creeds and therefore what's so big? "Why reinvent the wheel?" The creeds are more about Christian "beliefs" than anything, whereas this covenant is about Christian "life". This is more a covenant on how we will act and live as Christians, not so much what we believe from what I can tell. He quoted some about not tattling on people and resolving issues between our brethren etc. I don't see that in the Creeds, thus they have a covenant, not to replace anything, but for a different purpose all together.
Thank you. Finally someone who sees it this way. I see this is a good oath of what we as christians should strive for, but as a catholic I can say it would be rather rare if this could be used interchangeably with the part of the mass when we sing/say the Niceno-Constantinopolian creed.
Most creeds come about as a way of striking a gulf between what we are and what we are not. They serve to identify folks because if you don't agree with the whole thing it's gonna become clear where the differences are. The covenant is trying to define a clear idea of how we act out our faith, it's not for identification of what you believe, it's for comparing what you do in a concrete way informed by those creedal beliefs
This whole series (which I've just about finished start to end) Is so so good. The healing that's happening, the open dialogue and the walls broken. We need to continue actions like this that can remind that we are all brothers, all following Jesus and finding the same narrow road.
I was raised Free Will Baptist... a similar church covenant hangs in every one of the churches in that denomination I have ever been to. We read it every time someone became a member of the church, and at other times during the year (annual homecoming, quarterly meetings). I love that this congregation recites it on the first Sunday of the month.
Hey Matt, This is a really good video with Pastor Daylan on their church covenant. What a likeable guy. It sounds like he has a great church. I'd like to go there. Blessings.
I've gone to a Baptist Church my whole life (thought I'm now exploring other denominations now) but this is such a great idea! I wish my home church had had this!
That same church covenant was on the wall of my small independent Baptist Church. I read it a lot back then, I haven't thought about it in a long time. Thanks for this.
13:55 We had Ray Hughes visit our church, one of the most profound things I heard that evening was, "if you want to make an impact on the future, you start here and now with children, who will be our future legacy."
You're doing it right man, I'm a Saturday believer and I believe it's obvious the Lord is working through you. I've seen everything you've done on these youtubes. Your podcast is excellent as well. It's very difficult to find someone that lays out in the way you do. The open mindedness along with your solid belief in your faith is refreshing. Reminds me of a saying by a pastor that's always helped and stuck with me " we can disagree and still be friends". Please keep doing what you're doing. You've helped my understanding and faith. God bless you and your family man. Be strong in your faith and keep the Lord in your heart. We the Internet appreciate you.
This was great, a good explanation of what the covenant is and then your sharing of your own journey in church really brought it home. The covenant is there to help hold the community as they do the work of God. Well done.
I agree it's a cool thing, Matt! I belong to a denomination historically known as the "covenanters". Although the label has changed, the denomination still treats as important covenants made as promises with God as a witness. e.g., - Covenant of Marriage - Covenant of Church Membership - Covenant of Baptism When new members joins, they vow to participate in the body regularly, to not neglect the sacraments, to submit to correction, to teach our children of their sin and their need for a savior. And the congregation vows to support and encourage them and pray regularly for them. Similarly at baptism, and both occasions are times for us to recall our own covenants we made. It's a blessing!
Im starting to think that most protestant branches of Christianity (those who believe the Creeds) are unknowingly fragmented pieces of the Catholic Church yet to find there way back into full communion with the Mother Church. Vidoes like this are awesome and can help bring more unity. "Bless are the peacemakes for they will be called chidren of God". Thank you pastor Matt.
Tony thanks for your comment. I have an issue with what you are saying because it sounds like its coming from a bitter place that needs healing. Personally I was baptised catholic as a child but kind of raised evamgelical. I myself attacked the Catholic Church out of things I was tought to believe about it in my protestant way of thinking. I have since repented because I did it in ignorance before I began to question my beliefs and begin to study Church History for myself to see if these things were true. People like Scott Hann and the journey home network and Cathplic answers have helped me along the way to clear up my misconceptions. I also meet with an old teacher of mines who is a priest and received absolution for my sin that was haunting me and burdening with guilt and shame for a long time even when I was a part of Calvary Chapel. Since meet with my old teacher and confessing amd receiving absolution the guilt was lifted and peace increased within me. Thank God for that. There is defenitely an authority Jesus gave the Catholic Church. In my opinion and I dont know you but maybe you might have an issue with authority once you humble yourself God will give you His much needed merciful Grace. GBY
@tony As a Catholic, I read the Bible every morning as the daily Mass readings. Why do you think Catholics don't pay attention to the Bible? But the Word is also Jesus. The Word made flesh, who dwelt among us.
@tony Ahh I see where you a coming from with the happy sabbath comment. No offense but sounds like you may still be under the letter of the Law and not the Law of Christ. Gods eternal Love and His Grace make us want to obey him, wanting to obey the Law without Gods love is called legalism. There is a distinction. Unhealthy Fear can also keep up away from God no matter how religious one may be. A Healthy fear of God is the beginning of wisdom and starts with humility and a contrite heart. Maybe its time for you Tony to stop running from God and start running to Him like the prodigal son (see my icon).
@tony --One thing I love about the Ten Minute Bible Hour is that it is a refreshing time away from the name-calling that some Christians do to others. I know that everybody has a different take on Christ's words, but Matt seems to take seriously the challenge of Jesus that we love one another. God is love. If we start there, heck--maybe we can even just stay there, and let God sort out the complexities. Peace to you and all of God's magnificent love to you, too!
@tony Tony Jesus healed on the sabbath and was falsely accused and hated on because of it. He was demonstarting that Love and Mercy are priorities for God. He exposed the hyprocrasy because they were willing to break the sabbath for there own good like saving there animals (lively hood) but unwilling to accept someone being healed on the sabbath in an act of Gods love. Basically there was no Love in these mens hearts. God is Love and We love God because He first loved us. Thats somewhere in the bible.
If you ask God to save ya, He Will...Ive been through doubts , depression, and some very selfish moments...And He never left me..Praise God that He is Faithful even when I am not..Jesus Christ is the Way The Truth and the Life
I experienced this dynamic at the spiritual center I attended for a long time. There was a member who was about midway up the hierarchy of the ministry there, who I observed being very incongruent with the teachings of the center, and I really struggked for a few days as to whether I wanted to continue to attend a center that taught how to have a mature relationship with spirit, only to have someone who had attended for a while, and had taken numerous classes, acting inconsistently with those teaching. It finally dawned on me that I had to judge the teachings of that center by my own experience and implementation of those teachings, and not necessarily by the foibles of someone else not necessarily living them.
@@ravissary79, It's not a church, due to them not considering themselves exclusively Christian, per se, but the Center does function similarly as a church. I attended the Center for Spiritual Living in Fort Lauderdale. They have a website, so please feel free to look them up if you have any further questions about them.
The New Covenant is the Eucharist. Faith is obedience to the New Covenant. Luke 22:20. The Catholic Church lived the New Covenant under persecution for 300 years before the Bible was formalized and longer than the USA has been a country.
For anybody wanting a clearer exposition of this I recommend Dr Jon Bergsma's books. He was a Presbyterian minister, so he speaks in a way that's very understandable from a Protestant perspective
@@erc9468 Actually, a covenant is nothing like a contract. A contract is a legal agreement that parties can opt out of. A covenant is life giving and and its binding until death. Pretty much why God became man to fulfill old covenant, and then die to establish a new one.
@@MNskins11 This is all just semantics. A Covenant is an Agreement is a Contract is a Compact. Same thing. The old and new covenants in Christianity are just special types of contracts. Just look at what God and Abraham did in Genesis 15. This was how a contract was initiated in the ancient world. Regardless, the covenant (or agreement or contract) that this Baptist church has on its wall is just a wonderful example of an agreement that Christians can have with one another.
My advice to anyone who loves the Word of God is to get an audio Bible and play it in your house 24/7. Then when you go to church you will know what is being taught. If you are in Bible school you will have done your homework. It's not for everyone. Not everyone can do it. If you can and will do it then you will be reminded of what the Bible says all the time. I have been doing it for a few years now and I don't have time to tell you all it has done for me.
Hello Matt. Where is the other video where you talk to the catholic apologist? Been waiting to see it for weeks now. God bless you brother for what you are doing
You realize catholics never talk about you guys, right? You guys seem to spend a ton of time hating catholics and thinking about them. It's like having a stalker, you guys need to chill.
@@lll9107 I don't want to speak for Manuel TK but I'm guessing that we are both anxious for Matt to release Part 2 of that video because we want to have a better and more complete understanding of Catholic theology, not because we want to bully Catholics. I'm sorry that Protestants have left such a bad taste in your mouth but not all of us hate Catholics 🙄
Sometime go weird at the parent level too...and that sometimes hurt. My parents and I feel that disconnect, but I and my wife don't. I'm committed to my faith, and this makes more sense to me than what I grew up with. I can't wait to see what else you have. Thanks Matt - keep it up!
Cool! I've seen this in small Christian communities. Where Christians join together regularly outside of a church setting. As a Catholic however, the local parish is SUPPOSED to be your extended family. I mean. That's the Biblical model. We don't have a guy in Corinth who isn't really involved in the Corinthian Church. But is in a small community with guys from Thessalonica. I mean. That sounds weird. But sadly, many Christians are doing just that. So, yah. Extremely cool idea. Holding the local congregation to actually be in communion (& all that should entail) with each other. That's awesome! 👍
Well, the reason you didn't have people in Corinth involved in the church in Thessalonica is is wasn't easy to get from Corinth to Thessalonica. It would take you 6 days and cost £6000 according to Orbis (assuming 1 denarius = £50, which is my opinion but values are difficult to find). Orbis, by the way, is an online Google maps for the Roman world; it's worth going on to get a perspective about the difficulty of travel in that time. But yeah, in terms of difficulty of travel, going from Corinth to Thessalonica back then is like going from the UK to Antarctica today.
I think you missed my point. I Judaism (traditional) one is to attend the local synagogue. Same in the early Church and how Christians lived until quite recently. We had a very charismatic Priest at our parish when I converted. People drive many miles to hear him. People adored and idolized him. As you might guess. It didn't end well. We've seen horrible scandal in several Christian small group organizations. I'm not against small groups. I'm in one. I'm not saying you have to go to the nearest church. Just that "I'll pick my own community" isn't the Biblical model. We should join a church. Ideally nearby. And be fed and serve there. Not be barely involved but deeply involved in some other group.
@@matthewweston643 hmm... not quite sure what you're saying here. That cults of personality are bad? I agree. I don't know what you'd need to bring up Corinth or Thessalonica for that though.
I was only using two well known NT churches. Shorthand. A better example would have been two Churches. Both in Rome (for example) but vin completely different parts of the city. Hopefully that's clearer.
@@matthewweston643 But do you have much evidence that a Roman Christian would necessarily go to their closest church community or whatever in Rome? I mean, maybe that's the case, but I'm not really aware of much evidence either way.
I've known of lots of churches that have had a copy on the wall, but we only read it when someone joined the church, which wasn't very often in the small church I grew up in.
It's not just a missionary Baptist covenant because a copy of that exact covenant hangs in the little country church in Missouri I grew up in, which is a southern Baptist church
I was raised in a Missionary Baptist Church and am still a member of the church I grew up in. I love seeing the church covenant up on the wall when I visit sister churches. It's a unifying symbol. I recently was at a revival and the pastor gave a great sermon on the covenant. Is this unique to Missionary Baptists or do other denominations have them as well?
Something like this would have been useful when I was an Anglican. Their services got so monotonous, for me, that it lost all meaning... so I eventually gave up on it. Can't recall anyone checking up on me, to see why I was drifting away!
A covenant is a great thing . Everyone needs something to follow and guide them. Also , This pastor is very intelligence and expresses himself extremely well . I’m in Alabama as well so all you folks that think we are all dumb as hell you’re wrong ! Ha. 100,000 subs is close man . Reward yourself with a Popeyes chicken sandwich . ✌🏼
It's become very popular for people to say by religion is always toxic. But I'm so glad that there are people showing that organized religion can and does make the world a better place.
Having a Bible is a case of religion being organized. I too always thought it was comical for people demonize "organized religion". As if God delights in his earthly Kingdom being, unorganized.
I no longer have a home church because I fell out with the leadership of the rather small congregation as it was mostly the same people taking on leadership rolls, just moving seats. I was on the committee at the time. They also weren't interested in helping to move things forward, to encourage more people to join and help run things.
I grew up in a Baptist church that had and recited one of these church covenants. I wished that I could have read the one on their wall to se if it was like I remembered. These things can help, but I have also seen them hurt a church. They can help in ways that was mentioned in the video. They also can hurt as they tend to take people away from Sola Scriptoria as the covenant replaces scripture in dealing with issues. I have also seen it used as a replacement of love between the brethren. It also tends to focus on the externals rather than the internals, which is where the Pharisees doctrine fell short. Oh well that is my two cents, add $5 and get a cup of coffee.
Thanks for sharing more on such an intriguing series learning about other churches! Eagerly looking forward to more on the Holy Sepulchre & the Garden Tomb! It's interesting to think about the Holy Sepulchre seismic testing captured by National Geographic's Secrets of Christ's tomb explorer special in regards to Matthew 28:2.
But, what about this? “Again you have heard that it was said to those of [m]old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.’ 34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 But let [n]your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one." I grew up in a Baptist Church where making covenants were, normal procedure. All they were effective at doing was, adding another layer of guilt when you fail, and creating another barrier between you and the Grace of God. You feel like you must live up to the covenant before you can receive grace, this is counter to the gospel.
Ty for your been there, done that perspective, it's appreciated! What keeps coming to my mind when I hear things we are to 'sign' to make us a part of 'the 'church', has no scriptural backing. Correct me if I'm wrong. But I did find it a nice way to remind us how 'the church' is supposed to work together. A good overview for the new believer.
BarnGeek - you are exactly right. We are not to recite oaths and this “covenant” is man made. This guy kept saying this shapes us, but, the Holy Spirit guides us, and the Word.
I thought about this as well. My perspective is this isn't really what I read that passage to mean. They're not swearing on anything, they're just saying "this is what we're going to agree to go for this" knowing full well they're going to fail. I'm not a huge covenant guy, we don't do it at my church; but, if their congregation likes it I don't see anything inherently bad. I get your perspective too though and respect it.
Yep, definitely have experienced that at church. First time experiencing it was in my youth group when I was in high school. It is amazing how so many years later very few churches want to address this problem.
A Confession of Faith is something intrinsic to Sacred Tradition, a plain reading of Scripture. A Catechism is the teachings of the Church institution and clergy. The Covenant here sounds more like a Creed, its part of worship that is like the centrepoint of Scripture, Tradition and the Church, much like Communion/Eucharist, and may even be understood as a part of it.
Matt, I would LOVE to hear your whole faith story and how that all played out...Something similar to what Rhett & Link just did on their podcast. Maybe here? Maybe on NDQ?
Was that on Ear Biscuits, which episode? Matt went through a small portion of that time in his life during the No Dumb Questions Ep. 015 on Sleep Paralysis
Have one of those in my church and also in the Baptist Church manual. Both are suggested reading for all Baptists in my opinion. They take everything in the Covenant from the Bible. Hoping to find me one to buy and frame so I can hang it on my wall in my house
I like the idea of the Church Covenant, but as someone who was raised Baptist (in Australia), I also have a fundamental problem with it. Part of being a Baptist is having the freedom of conscience, however that particular Covenant forbids the consumption of alcohol, which I understand is a common thing in Baptist Churches in the US, but it's not here in Australia. Furthermore, I find from my study of Scripture that whilst drunkenness is sinful, alcohol is a blessing from the LORD, and even commanded under certain circumstances. So even though I am, at my core a Baptist, I actually could not attend that church, because I could not make that profession every month, and have it be truthful. So now I am barred from fellowshipping with other Baptists, over an issue of conscience. Whereas if I were to fellowship with Baptists who likewise refrained from all alcohol consumption, but who did not have a Covenant like that, then I would simply refrain from alcohol whilst fellowshipping with them. To be clear, I don't rarely if ever drink, I might have one or two beers a year. I used to be a drunkard, but God miraculously delivered me from that bondage. This is not about the promotion of alcohol, and certainly not a defence of drunkenness, but a defence of conscience. Other than that, I really enjoyed everything this brother had to say, and I agree with most everything he says.
I think it's important to note for those who oppose a church covenant. The church covenant is not being displayed or read as the Word of God. Those of us who have church covenants realize that without the new covenant that God has established, there is no church covenant. We know that Jesus established the new covenant in His blood for all believers for all time. Those of us who have church covenants are saying, "as a local expression of the universal covenant" we are vowing to uphold the new covenant that Jesus has established. Furthermore, the covenant is not legalistic as some has expressed, if you noticed two phrases in the church covenant, "by the Spirit of God" and "by the aid of the Holy Spirit." We realize that it is only by the Holy Spirit that we can live out the new covenant. Also, the church covenant is a guide (based on Scripture) it doesn't demand that everyone carry it out the same way. It is written in such a way that each person is free to carry it out on how the Holy Spirit moves in their lives. For example, there is a phrase that says, "to religiously educate our children." What is missing from that phrase? How to do that? Again, it leaves room for us to decide how to religiously educate our children. Does that mean we home school? Does that mean we do public or private school? Do we do a collaboration of both private, youth groups or personal family time devotions? The covenant leaves room for us to navigate what works best in your situation. In other words, it leaves room for the moving of the Holy Spirit for each individual. You can find support for educating our children in: Ephesians 6:4 “Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.” I think as you take a closer look at the covenant you will find that it is a good reminder and encouragement for believers to live out the new covenant in a local church body.
Great video Matt!!! Thank you for all your good work, but I´d really like to watch the second half of your conversation with the Catholic Theologian though.....
But...do we need to sign a paper to follow the word of God??? And agree to pay a percent tithe...and agree to behave...a certain way...my yes is yes...and no is no...we know a tree by its fruit....not a signed paper
Jesus blood is the new covenant. No need for more covenants. Human wisdom but legalistic. Jesus said, “Lee your Yes be yes and your No be no. Anything beyond this comes from the evil one.” Therefore, this is of the evil one.
Thank you for this one and this series! I am definitely one of the stuff got weird crowd, I'm back, but sometimes it's still hard. Could you tell your story, including those bits, or point me to a video where you do? Sometimes I think I need to hear those.
i grew up southern baptist and we used the same covenant. most baptist churches have used this covenant, as it was written in 1833and put in the "baptist manual" in 1853. not all churches had it posted on the wall, but it was printed in hymnals etc, many time recited at communion. my church had it posted in the vestibule. if he had read further, it says we wont use "intoxicating drinks as a beverage" meaning no alcohol. i wonder if he really calls out those who drink, which in effect is breaking to covenant.
It specifically states that telling on people is bad, and that people should be forgiven. And nothing against rape or abuse. Wonderful way to make shutting up rape and abuse cases look good...Wonderful way to make victims feel guilty for coming forward, and to guilt them into forgiving the person who hurt them...
Your allusions to your experiences really resonated, Matt. I do have to wonder if this sort of church experience is as common as it sounds, and if it is are we living in some kind of weird age of post-disillusionment where even affirmation of Christian faith is a reaction to Christianity or the church? Iunno my brain hurts and I'm seeing parallels between post-western films and religious ideology.
Welp, Missionary Baptists just have to get that statement about alcohol in there, don't they. As long as they realize that drinking isn't a sin, but that getting yourself drunk is the sin, I can let it go. I am a Texas Southern Baptist. I have a drink now and then, but I have never in my life gotten drunk or even "buzzed." I realize that this may not be that easy for some people due to genetics and psychology and that it is, therefore, something to be taken seriously, but making it a central part of your church's covenant document is to lose your sense of priority. For example, I notice that gambling and provocative dancing (as other classic targets of Baptist disdain) are not mentioned. The wording also seems to go against the ability of members to choose their congregation based on conscience. If taken seriously, this statement seems to lock the individual member into the support and membership of their specific congregation. While "church hopping" is a problem, freedom of conscience requires freedom of fellowship. Also, this document, especially as it is used across all Missionary Baptist churches, feels a little too close to "credalism" for this Baptist. We already have a document to refer to when dealing with member-to-member relations, discipline, and model behavior. It's called the Bible. I'm not sure why anything else should be necessary. [Obligatory disclaimer!] No, the above criticisms are not an attack on MBs or their churches. Neither do they constitute a condemnation or call to disfellowship with MBs. If all believers are my, "brothers and sisters," then my fellow Baptists of the Missionary variety are very close to my heart indeed. To me, criticism is a sign of care and respect. Please take it that way.
"We already have a document to refer to when dealing with member-to-member relations, discipline, and model behavior. It's called the Bible. I'm not sure why anything else should be necessary." What do you think about reading books and commentary about the bible? What do you think about sermons? Since we have the bible, why do we need people to explain it? Personally I see this 'covenant' as just that; a focused, intentional explanation of what the bible says. It isn't the bible itself, but is sure can be mighty helpful to have someone/something remind us of what the bible does say!
@@LoudCommentor , 1) I hope you have read the rest of my comment where I point out that I don't mean this as a condemnation. 2) The sermons, commentaries, etc. that you mentioned serve a different purpose than the document in question. They explain and exhort. We have examples of this type of thing in both the Old and New Testament. In at least one place that mentions when the Israelites were called together to have the Torah read out to them as a body of believers, it says that there were Levites placed among the people to explain what was read. The point of this Church Covenent is not to expound on a difficult piece of scripture or exhort the people of God to follow the Bible's commands. It is, by the very word "Covenant" a binding, regulatory document of church organization. As I said, church organization, discipline, etc. are all handled fairly specifically and straightforwardly in a relatively small number of verses in the New Testament. Any Baptist pastor, deacon, or longtime member worth their salt should be able to cite a specific verse that refers to any question of church order that might arise. It really is quite straightforward. Coming up with a separate document, with its unique set of priorities, for people to commit themselves publically to and recite on a weekly basis seems an odd thing to do when every member has a copy of the truly authoritative Document in his or her own hands. 3) Non-creedalism is a definitive aspect of Baptist belief. While this document has more to do with church order and individual behavioral expectation than the higher theology of most creeds, it still rubs up against the *purpose* of non-creedalism. The point is not that official church documents that people may place themselves under are themselves *incorrect,* but the very basic fact that they are authoritative statements that *are not the Bible.* I don't disagree with any one point in this covenant. The point of non-creedalism, however, is that denominations such as the Catholic or Orthodox Churches got to where they are by building up their own structures, layer by layer, that might very well be meant to have a Biblical basis, but are still *not the Bible* itself. Even the best and most Biblically-orthodox document is a product of human beings at a given point in history and geography and speaks through that human lens. REQUIRING that such a document be given any authoritative position in the church is to dip one's toes into the mire that sank the Catholic Church and others in well-meaning, but human made, tradition. Obviously, the Missionary Baptists are hardly about to appoint a Pope! As I said, my statements are simply meant as sibling advice, and constructive, loving, criticism. They, as fellow Baptists, are closer to me and mine in beliefs and practices than any one of the *many* other denominations out there that I am perfectly willing to call my brothers and sisters in Christ.
@@jameswoodard4304 Thanks for the long reply! Appreciate your thoughts; no offence taken nor intended! Unfortunately text can seem blunt sometimes; not my intention! Hope we can continue good convo, I am keen to hear more of your thoughts. I am in agreement with all your points. Yet I also think that a document such as this, which can be referred to at times, can be quite helpful within a church. Personally, if I were to use it, I would take several precautions: - I would refrain from calling it a covenant. - I would probably also refrain from using it as a creed/recitative, and find some way of using it as a resource (eg perhaps in small groups looking at it together with the bible). - Whether it were recited or not, I would make sure that time and care is taken upon baptism/membership, and sometime throughout the year, to be explaining where it comes from through the bible. - There is a concern about non-members, visitors, and new comers. How would they understand it in its proper place beneath biblical authority? I see this covenant as a summarised work of systematic theology, looking at the idea of 'life together' and putting it all in one place to be read easily. I do think you would come up with the same summaries if you were to do a word/theme search on the topic (though I also agree that some of the phrases could do with changing, eg alcohol). I would put it in the same place as gospel tracts, such as Two Ways To Live, or gospel summaries. Rather than expanding on scripture, they summarise, and I have found them a a helpful starting point for new Christians. As a member of a baptist church myself I see the benefits of non-credalism, as well as the dangers of credalism. I also see that there are benefits to creeds, if well managed, well taught, and put in their proper place (being beneath authority to the bible). -- Just had the thought. What would you say about worship songs? They do not expand or explain the scriptures in quite the same way as commentaries or sermons. Rather, they summarise, are not always paired explicitly with the verses that they are inspired by, and are not directly from the bible directly. If this were a song, would you feel differently about it?
@@LoudCommentor , First, I totally agree with you about the "bluntness" of text. That's actually one reason I often type out such long comments and replies, so I can lay things out logically and include disclaimers. The YT comment section is an amazingly emotionally-sensitive place. I tend to express myself in a very systematic and logic-based (and long winded) way in text, but this generally reads (ironically) as me either being *extremely* upset or smarmy and arrogant, which leads to attacks on my character. It's very strange. On worship songs, I don't know if you mean a specific genre or not so I'm just referring to all music used in a church setting from classical hymns to contemporary praise and worship, but I would again point to the difference in purpose and intent. Yes, songs do tend to encapsulate doctrinal points, but that is generally not their purpose, especially not these days. The incidence of using songs as teaching tools is quite low these days and really only applies to children who will eventually graduate to the firmer "meat" of the Word eventually anyway. Also, I think anyone basing their beliefs, doctrinal position, or resulting behavior on the lyrics of even the most well-beloved song is pretty obviously getting their priorities out of whack. In the way of thinking that seems proper to me, music has much use, but zero authority in that it is meant as part of the human individual's side of the conversation with God. Scripture comes from God. Explanatory and doctrinal materials, though mediated by humans by definition, are on that same side of the conversation.(and therein lies the danger) They are explaining or detailing what God said, so to speak. However, music, like prayer, and as it is used within the church setting, is part of the human response to God and therefore has absolutely zero authority behind it. As long as we, as individuals and congregations, keep this in mind and behave accordingly, there really shouldn't be a problem. That said, the orthodoxy of lyrics is still important. We don't want our side of the Conversation to be based on false understandings or to expose ourself to bad doctrine unawares. "Garbage in, garbage out" applies to elements of Christian culture as well as that of the rest of the World.
I made it serious mistakes for others (they were kids...), and others made mistakes with me (this was an adult). I can only pray that I get to make up to the kid one day. Ps it's not pedo, no one died or got physically hurt.... Just something I won't admit publically.
pyguy Google owns TH-cam and the advertising is driven by what you watch and search . So after this video some of your adds might have some Christian content . Blessings
I think that's great! Hopefully it happens because the Google algorithm believes a very diverse group of people with diverse interests watch these videos.
Because your internet activity makes TH-cam think you fit the audience for video games. It knows where you've been and what you do and what you search for. It's owned by Google. So it shows you ads it thinks you'd like to see.
Every Baptist church I've been in, including my own, has one of these, and they are all very similar. Just Google "Baptist church covenant" and take your pick of the church websites that come up.
We had this same covenant in the church I grew up in. I remembered the start, "Having been led, as we believe, by the spirit of God...", and a Google search came across multiple examples. A specific one from Shiloh Baptist's website was my first hit and has the advantage of having Biblical citations for various points, if that is important to you.
Oh, man. I've accidentally destroyed a group when I was younger. I didn't mean to, I didn't really do anything sinful, but, man, I destroyed that group basically by taking really seriously what everyone else just had as a casual interest. I'm so embarrassed by that, I consider changing my name pretty often.
you mentioned before in the comments that his church also recites the creeds, wouldn't that be awkward for them to accept the opinion of a council of bishops? I've always wondered about protestants using the Nicene creed, I mean the bishops at Nicea believed in priesthood and the real presence, I understand the stance of Lutherans or Anglicans, who generally accept the councils because they preserve some kind of succession.
it seems to me a bit strange to say this creed is our baseline for orthodoxy whilst rejecting the authority of those same bishops on just about everything else
not trying to be antagonistic, just wondering where you would disregard the fathers, would you accept their moral and doctrinal but not their teachings on priesthood? not catholic myself, was catholic but now im looking to orthodoxy
D L Moody "bro if you don't come back to church I'll burn your house down". 😂😂 I was dying when I heard about Moody taking out that coal and putting it on the floor. Dude didn't play around.
A church covenant sets out what members of the church are expected to do. Back when it was written, they were probably trying to accomplish what we try to accomplish with new members classes today. In fact, when I wrote the material for our new members class, I included the church covenant in it.
Something I might push back on a little bit, Matt, is the idea that the only thing you see of God is the world he made and the church. You know that's not true, God intervenes in the world directly, now, and in the past (and interacted in a special way in through the Word coming to earth as Jesus and also the inspiration of scripture). While it's true we many of these things we get know about visual and audible stimuli, which come to us via the light and sound in the world he created, even then God can come to us directly via the holy spirit, so it's not quite even true in that sense. I think seeing God in the church and the world is important, but it's also important to see God primarily in his direct action. I think that the "covenant" in this church is kind of cool, but perhaps it is emphasised a little too much. As someone who does drink alcohol "as a beverage" (presumably to not count communion and alcohol gels?) and might even distribute it as a community event or something, the emphasis on that does feel slightly exclusionary. I have not had the same feeling at Methodist services I've attended, who also have a strong view on teetotalism. And most Christians drink (usually significantly more frequently than I do) so it's not even a majority view they're uniting around. I'd worry, in a similar way, whether its centrality might put off nonchristians who are attending the services to check Christianity out; which is kind of a more important point.
I appreciate the thoughts! When I say "the world" I don't just mean the physically visible planet, I mean everything that's been made which encompasses most of what you listed as an addendum. The direct action you're describing happens in one of two places: The church (in the lives of Christians), or in the world (in physical things or in the lives of non-Christians). I'd also balk at including the clause about alcohol in the church covenant, but I understand why it's there historically. Such a clause would most certainly be off-putting to some, maybe even most, but that said, you've got to give them credit for being up front about what they believe and how they do things so you can know whether it'd be a fit for you. Controlling groups don't give you that information until you're already in.
@@MattWhitmanTMBH Oh, thank you for clarifying. Of course, if you're clear that "the church" includes yourself and scriptural authors, you don't necessarily have to be overly worried when the church you attend lets you down. (Of course you might let yourself down too, but your own experiences are the lens for how you find out any information about anything, so you have to trust them in some way at least). Well yeah, I'm glad they are upfront about their opinion on it, in the same way I'm glad the Methodists I know are. I'm just a bit less comfortable about the way that this group make it central to their worship meetings.
@@MattWhitmanTMBH Exactly! 😊 If you're a Christian who believes that casual/occasional drinking is not acceptable, you'll want to join a body of believers who have the same beliefs and who will support each other in that belief.
light & sound and that’s precisely why Protestantism is false. It’s dependent on emotions and personal preference rather than absolute truth and unity in Christ. The Holy Spirit brings unity and understanding. Confusion and disorder is the work of Satan.
The Ten Minute Bible Hour while I respect you immensely Matt I’d have to disagree. I don’t respect them for being upfront about errors in faith and doctrine anymore than I’d respect a Mormon or JW for being “upfront”. Tolerant perhaps. But not approving.
Why doesn't the preacher use the church covenant spelled out in the book of Acts, like the original Christians used? Oh wait. There isn't any such "church covenant" spelled out in the New Testament. Baptists are cool but they tend to add a LOT to the simple gospel and trivialize some of the most important parts. For example, baptism is something a Baptist undergoes when moving from one assembly to another. This is a COMPLETE distortion of what Christian baptism is supposed to symbolize. It's NOT like taking wedding vows - as some Baptists will tell you - it symbolizes your participation in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus (see Romans 6). How many times did Jesus die and get buried? How many times was He raised from the dead? Baptists completely ignore the original purpose of baptism and thereby invalidate the whole ritual. So, in my opinion, Baptists are cool and everything but they tend to play fast and loose with the original faith of our fathers. Kinda like the Catholic Church does - only to a lesser degree. I would NEVER join a church where I had to swear an oath. Didn't Jesus command, "Swear not at all"? It would be foolish to violate the Founder's commandment in order to join a church that claimed to be of Him. Don't you just love human traditions that eclipse the direct commandments of God? I think Jesus had ought to say about that kind of thing too...
Matt, I have been with you almost from the beginning and have heard you mention several times how you previously lost you faith in God for a time. On this video you actually referred to it as being a Christian (accepting and confessing Christ as Savior and Lord), then being an athiest (denying God exists), then being a Christian again (accepting Christ as Savior and Lord). Did you say it that way to keep it simple and within the context of the video itself; or do you truly feel it is possible to lose your Christianity (salvation), not just struggle with maintaining and growing your faith?
Fair points. I think the Missionary Baptist response would be that they believe the values of their church covenant are reflective of life by the Spirit.
I suppose one could post the 10 Commandments (not man-made) and say that reflects life in the Spirit... but we aren’t to live like that. “But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.” - Romans 7:6
Only Christ makes all things new. As St Paul clearly wrote the Holy Spirit brings unity not confusion and disunity. To only live by the spirit is dualism and is a fundamental rejection of the incarnations mystery of Christ. Christ became man and rose from the dead because the physical was good and created by God. Guess what? The Bible was written and canonically ordered by man. But apparently that’s the one exception? You claim traditions are man made but yet you forget that Paul and Timothy make it clear to keep all they have taught. Whether via handed down tradition or written epistle. Christ also said he came to complete the law not abolish it. Tradition literally means to hand down. Rejection of sacred traditions is the rejection of the faith that Christ gave to his disciples and shows further the work of Satan in confusing the Protestants.
The problem with what you say (feeling in any given moment of your life that your church mades some stuff wrong and therefore you want to quit christianity) lies within different levels of Æ sistematiic problems, lets say. The first one is that your faith is worthless, for which is man made, ergo, false, and because is made by man, its not enought to fill you, because only god can truly fill your whole being. This is important to consider, especially in the protestant point of view, because when the unity of your church falls apart, which are your options? surely you consider that maybe other churches may be the right ones, but the problem with that (again, protestant viewpoint) is that there are just too many, literally dozens of thousands of different churches, none of them valid, because, you think, who are we to judge the neighbour? This is the main issue of the relativism, which serves as a foundation stone for the whole protestant branch of christianity. Theese issues dont happen in the Orthodox or the Catholic tradition
Deacon Ken Why are we to be loyal to the original Creed? It’s not directly from scripture, it’s just a statement of faith. If their creed is biblical (I believe it is) there’s nothing wrong with having their own. Be careful when holding on to things that are made by men. Just because the Nicene Creed is biblical, doesn’t mean it’s biblical to see it as the one and only document of the Church.
I think this covenant goes beyond the creed (which focuses more on factual beliefs held in common) as it includes a personal commitment to the church community. As far as I understand them, the creeds do not include any practical guidance on how members of the faith are to engage with the world or each other which is what this covenant lays out.
Steph oneness is a crown of unity which Christ prayed to the Father for on our behalf. There’s no unity amongst Protestants. This covenant is nothing more than a mission statement and marketing.
Luke Harkleroad yes they do. “I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ the only begotten son of God, Light from Light, true God of True God..” if you cannot ascertain the instructions for Christian life from that then either you read but don’t understand, or you don’t truly believe in the words of Christ. “If you love me then you will keep my commandments”. Tire belief inspires action. One isn’t “born again” via belief or statement of it either. The mistranslation of the original Greek John 3:7 was written in, doesn’t say “ye must be born again” the original wording actually means to be “born from above”. Go back to John 3:5 where Christ affirms one must be born of both the water and the spirit. Christ spoke in clear terms of the times. Not symbols. So what does this have to do with creed? Simple at the end of the original creed it says I confess one baptism for the remission of sins. Because it affirms our belief in Christ’s one sacrifice, and our rebirth in him which happens once. As he is part of one God and truly established one church. If all things are made in his image then they should reflect upon his nature. And if we confess our faith as Christians that enough contains the understanding of following Christ and having Christ like behaviour. This bickering of doctrine between denominations isn’t reflective of the unity of the Holy Trinity. This isn’t the true faith Christ established.
God the Son became man at a certain point in time. It's what we Christians call the doctrine of the Incarnation. He remained God but took on flesh. After His resurrection and ascension He remains both God and man.
MWJ '90 @ it is a Biblical and Historical Fact that Jesus Christ was a Jew. Christians said Jesus is a God . So God is a Jew ??? What a racial God !!!!
From my experience within the SBC (can't speak for other denominations and church covenants), RUN from any pastor who speaks of implementing a CC. These YR&R guys are big on it and they are consistently manipulative, abusive, and most dangerous of all they are equal parts charismatic and articulate.
It used to be that every Missionary Baptist church had a copy of the church covenant on the wall. Most of the small SBC and other groups probably still have one hanging up. Most likely, even the large SBC churches have a copy somewhere, though it may be rolled up and stuffed in a closet.
I might not agree with every single item in their Church covenant, but the fact that they plastered on the wall for everyone to see when you walk in means they're not trying to control people. Controlling groups don't disclose their Hang-Ups oh, they disguise them until you're already too committed and can't leave.
The Ten Minute Bible Hour , hello, please re- listen to what this man said, just about every other word related to man made religion, control or manipulation, very deceptive, just like all religion.
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Thanks for watching this!As we discussed in the video, the idea of a church covenant is different from the idea of a creed (I believe Daylan's church recites the creeds as well). A creed articulates essential orthodox belief and marks the boundaries of that orthodoxy, but speaks very little to the life of the local church community. A church covenant (as explained to me by Pastor Daylan) is more like a voluntary social contract between members of a local church to agree on how they'll treat each other and handle their business in the community. I think a Missionary Baptist would say that the Christian principles laid out in this particular church covenant flow from the essential doctrine of historical Christianity. Obviously some might disagree with some of the specifics in any given church covenant (If I were writing a church covenant I'd probably handle the part about alcohol differently), but the concept is excellent. It puts the basic social values of the group right up front so everyone knows what they're getting into, and so that someone considering joining the congregation can decide whether that's the kind of community they want to be a part of.
That conversation will be divided up over probably five videos, and the next one will come out in March. Glad you liked the first part enough to ask about the second!
Hi Matt, For the past 50 years or so, I've been a member of two Baptist churches. Both had a church covenant very similar or identical to this one. The first church (an independent, fundamental church) had the covenant pasted into the hymn books, but it was rarely referenced. The second church (founded nearly 150 years ago as a Swedish Baptist church), however, periodically has a "covenant reaffirmation" service.
You mentioned that if you were writing a church covenant, you would probably handle the part about alcohol differently. Guess what. When the pastor of the second church first began his decades-long pastorate, one of the first things he did was change that part of the covenant. The amazing thing to me is that his respect for the Bible was so high that he made this risky move even though he himself was (and still is to this day) a teetotaler! I do see the value in these "covenants," but I see a danger as well: they can go beyond what the Bible says. In addition to this potentially danger, there is one quirk that I've noticed with this particular covenant. Near the end it says, "We moreover engage that when we remove from this place, we will, if possible, unite with a like-minded church where we can carry out the spirit of this covenant." I've often wondered why the original framers of the covenant considered that sentence necessary. I mean, if you love your church, but your job or something else moves you to a different part of the country/world, aren't you going to NATURALLY unite with a like-minded church? On the other hand, if for some reason you really cannot affirm the covenant any more, why would you want to unite with a like-minded church?
Those quibbles aside, I was really impressed with how this pastor answered your questions. He seems like a great guy.
I have a serious suggestion for you if you REALLY want to stir the pot with this series. Find a Biblical Unitarian pastor to interview (not to be confused with the Unitarian Universalist church!). I recommend Sean Finnegan, a pastor in upstate New York (restitutio.org/my-story/).
The Ten Minute Bible Hour I absolutely love your videos, especially when you conduct interviews. I wish there was a weekly upload so we can expect a video coming on a certain day of the week. Any plans to upload videos on a regular basis like that?
@@tyaucupis Glad you like the channel Ty; thanks for saying that! When I first started I did the scheduled upload thing for quite a while, but gradually I found myself needing to publish when the video is ready instead of what the calendar says. I think the content has improved as a result. So, all of that to say, I'm committed to my daily podcast, but can't commit the same way to a release schedule here. Thanks for your patience with me.
The Ten Minute Bible Hour understandable. Thank you for the response. I’m just little anxious for a new video to be posted I guess. It’s probably the day and age we live is where we don’t have to wait for the next episode of our favorite tv show to come out the following week or the next season. The Office just plays the next episode automatically haha.
I love seeing the Holy Spirit work in all these different denominations. Thank you for these windows on Christianity, Matt.
potomaccrafter except he doesn’t. That’s borderline blasphemy. Reason why I say this is because the scriptures make it clear, the Holy Spirit brings unity and clarity. Not division and confusion. There’s disunity between many “churches” within the same denominations (ex all the many types of baptist and evangelicals). There can’t be unity in the one body if there’s multiple bodies expressing differing views. That’s schizophrenic theology. The funny thing about Protestants is that they are hung up on words whereas they claim Catholics are hung up on works. They attack Catholics for being legalistic but they themselves claim salvation via a legalistic statement, typically via the “sinners prayer” which by the way isn’t anywhere in scripture. Nor has Christ nor any disciple said to “ask Jesus into your heart” in ordered to be “saved”. There’s a lot of irony in what is even said in this video because these folks think Church pertains to one church building and their community they work with rather than a universal whole. If we are to believe in the words of Christ and the oneness of the Holy Trinity. Then one cannot remain Protestant. To do so and believe all denominations are the same is to say that there is disunity in the Trinity. It’s akin to pluralism and the heresy of belief that all faiths could lead to God. What it comes down to is if your “church” doesn’t serve the sacraments (Ex Eucharist, baptism etc) then you’re in the wrong religion. Period. As an Orthodox Christian we believe completely in the written word and the traditions handed down by the apostles. That includes belief in the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist (John 6:63). That includes the confessions of sins and receiving good council in order to avoid the sins we commit. As long as Protestantism exists the world we see Christians as self contradictory. As long as heresy exists we will loose the battle against the devil. This Protestant Church covenant is a silly rephrasing of the creed. Our covenant our creed is the faith the apostles handed down from Christ. It’s our example we see in our Lord and if it’s something he wouldn’t do, then we should strive to avoid commuting those sins.
@@mattbellacotti "Borderline blasphemy"?? I don't think so. The Holy Spirit spoke to individuals long before Christ was made Man. The Holy Spirit filled Mary. The Holy Spirit filled Elizabeth. The Holy Spirit spoke through all the prophets. The Holy Spirit came down on the first disciples at Pentecost. The Holy Spirit is the giver of every life, the advocate, the comforter, like the wind, in the cloud, at creation, in our hearts. No one can say "Jesus is Lord" except through the Spirit. All of the people Matt interviews have dedicated their lives to the notion of, and to declaring that "Jesus is Lord". Can it be true both that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Jesus and also that it is not? No--but it CAN be true that the Holy Spirit will bring us into all knowledge, and that we can trust God in His good time to bring clarity and unity to dispel the devil's deceptions. Meanwhile, the Holy Spirit in me responds with joy to the Holy Spirit I see in these good people all proclaiming that "Jesus is Lord"!!
Paul said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved." (Acts 16:31) He did not say that one must not misunderstand even one doctrine even a little bit or else he would not be saved. Because salvation is the work of the Holy Spirit (this is an idea that the Bible clearly teaches, and is not only found in Calvinist theology), we must conclude that anyone who believes in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation, and trusts Him alone to save them, must be evidence of the Holy Spirit at work. Christ is not divided, but even though various churches are divided from each other they can all be worked on and through by Him.
This is a gifted Pastor. God bless him.
I love how the first two minutes are basically spent explaining the concept of concupiscence. The whole thing was really Catholic, both in describing how humans still have their natural gifts and capacity for natural virtue, and in describing how we still have a tendency to fall into sin.
tony does the Catholic Church deny the Father and the Son? That’s what an antichrist is, I doubt the Church Christ himself established is anti Christ take your protestant lenses off and stop protesting
As a Catholic, we recite the Nicene Creed and Apostle’s Creed at every mass because we want to remember why we attend mass in the first place
One of the things that I really appreciated when I came back to the Catholic Church. The first comment (from Matt) does say that this church also recites the Creed on Sundays--as many evangelical congregations are beginning to do. I wonder if this covenant actually is more in line with the confiteor at Mass than the Creed.
Episcopalians and some high-church Methodists maintain the reading of the Nicene at every service.
We recite the Apostle's creed often at our Evangelical Fellowship church.
Lutherans tend to recite the Apostles' Creed on non-communion Sundays and the Nicene Creed on communion Sundays. Some read the Athanasian Creed together on Trinity Sunday (the first Sunday after Pentecost, for those who are not familiar with the practice). I can see the value in a group recitation of a "horizontal" statement that deals with relationships among Christians as well, though I've never been aware of such a practice before seeing this video.
As a creedal Protestant, our denomination does the same at most services.
These creeds are what binds the whole orthodox Catholic Church together. Notice I didn’t say Roman Catholic, though.
I see a lot of comments from people saying this is just the same as the Apostle, Nicene or Athanasian Creeds and therefore what's so big? "Why reinvent the wheel?" The creeds are more about Christian "beliefs" than anything, whereas this covenant is about Christian "life". This is more a covenant on how we will act and live as Christians, not so much what we believe from what I can tell. He quoted some about not tattling on people and resolving issues between our brethren etc. I don't see that in the Creeds, thus they have a covenant, not to replace anything, but for a different purpose all together.
Thank you. Finally someone who sees it this way. I see this is a good oath of what we as christians should strive for, but as a catholic I can say it would be rather rare if this could be used interchangeably with the part of the mass when we sing/say the Niceno-Constantinopolian creed.
That's correct. A creed is good to say "this is what we believe". A covenant is a vow or a promise as to what you will do, with God as witness.
Most creeds come about as a way of striking a gulf between what we are and what we are not. They serve to identify folks because if you don't agree with the whole thing it's gonna become clear where the differences are.
The covenant is trying to define a clear idea of how we act out our faith, it's not for identification of what you believe, it's for comparing what you do in a concrete way informed by those creedal beliefs
This whole series (which I've just about finished start to end) Is so so good. The healing that's happening, the open dialogue and the walls broken. We need to continue actions like this that can remind that we are all brothers, all following Jesus and finding the same narrow road.
Late to the video. I love Pastor Daylan.
Thank you Jesus for these men of God.
I love this pastor. I really really love this series of videos.
I was raised Free Will Baptist... a similar church covenant hangs in every one of the churches in that denomination I have ever been to. We read it every time someone became a member of the church, and at other times during the year (annual homecoming, quarterly meetings). I love that this congregation recites it on the first Sunday of the month.
Hey Matt,
This is a really good video with Pastor Daylan on their church covenant. What a likeable guy. It sounds like he has a great church. I'd like to go there.
Blessings.
I've gone to a Baptist Church my whole life (thought I'm now exploring other denominations now) but this is such a great idea! I wish my home church had had this!
That same church covenant was on the wall of my small independent Baptist Church. I read it a lot back then, I haven't thought about it in a long time. Thanks for this.
This one episode above all others caused me to reflect on the inside for ways to be and do better.
13:55 We had Ray Hughes visit our church, one of the most profound things I heard that evening was, "if you want to make an impact on the future, you start here and now with children, who will be our future legacy."
There are a bunch of people in this comments section who typed up their angry comment while completely ignoring what was even said.
I haven't watched the video, but I want to know I'm very upset with you.
@@BM-si2ei lol I see what you did there :)
You're doing it right man, I'm a Saturday believer and I believe it's obvious the Lord is working through you. I've seen everything you've done on these youtubes. Your podcast is excellent as well. It's very difficult to find someone that lays out in the way you do. The open mindedness along with your solid belief in your faith is refreshing. Reminds me of a saying by a pastor that's always helped and stuck with me " we can disagree and still be friends". Please keep doing what you're doing. You've helped my understanding and faith. God bless you and your family man. Be strong in your faith and keep the Lord in your heart. We the Internet appreciate you.
This was great, a good explanation of what the covenant is and then your sharing of your own journey in church really brought it home. The covenant is there to help hold the community as they do the work of God. Well done.
We recite the Apostles creed every sunday before our service starts. It has shaped my thinking. Been great. This covenant is great too.
I agree it's a cool thing, Matt!
I belong to a denomination historically known as the "covenanters". Although the label has changed, the denomination still treats as important covenants made as promises with God as a witness. e.g.,
- Covenant of Marriage
- Covenant of Church Membership
- Covenant of Baptism
When new members joins, they vow to participate in the body regularly, to not neglect the sacraments, to submit to correction, to teach our children of their sin and their need for a savior. And the congregation vows to support and encourage them and pray regularly for them. Similarly at baptism, and both occasions are times for us to recall our own covenants we made. It's a blessing!
I'm really curious if you've found yourself drawn to a particular denomination after doing these tours?
Im starting to think that most protestant branches of Christianity (those who believe the Creeds) are unknowingly fragmented pieces of the Catholic Church yet to find there way back into full communion with the Mother Church. Vidoes like this are awesome and can help bring more unity. "Bless are the peacemakes for they will be called chidren of God". Thank you pastor Matt.
Tony thanks for your comment. I have an issue with what you are saying because it sounds like its coming from a bitter place that needs healing.
Personally I was baptised catholic as a child but kind of raised evamgelical. I myself attacked the Catholic Church out of things I was tought to believe about it in my protestant way of thinking. I have since repented because I did it in ignorance before I began to question my beliefs and begin to study Church History for myself to see if these things were true.
People like Scott Hann and the journey home network and Cathplic answers have helped me along the way to clear up my misconceptions.
I also meet with an old teacher of mines who is a priest and received absolution for my sin that was haunting me and burdening with guilt and shame for a long time even when I was a part of Calvary Chapel. Since meet with my old teacher and confessing amd receiving absolution the guilt was lifted and peace increased within me. Thank God for that. There is defenitely an authority Jesus gave the Catholic Church. In my opinion and I dont know you but maybe you might have an issue with authority once you humble yourself God will give you His much needed merciful Grace. GBY
@tony As a Catholic, I read the Bible every morning as the daily Mass readings. Why do you think Catholics don't pay attention to the Bible? But the Word is also Jesus. The Word made flesh, who dwelt among us.
@tony
Ahh I see where you a coming from with the happy sabbath comment. No offense but sounds like you may still be under the letter of the Law and not the Law of Christ. Gods eternal Love and His Grace make us want to obey him, wanting to obey the Law without Gods love is called legalism. There is a distinction. Unhealthy Fear can also keep up away from God no matter how religious one may be. A Healthy fear of God is the beginning of wisdom and starts with humility and a contrite heart. Maybe its time for you Tony to stop running from God and start running to Him like the prodigal son (see my icon).
@tony --One thing I love about the Ten Minute Bible Hour is that it is a refreshing time away from the name-calling that some Christians do to others. I know that everybody has a different take on Christ's words, but Matt seems to take seriously the challenge of Jesus that we love one another. God is love. If we start there, heck--maybe we can even just stay there, and let God sort out the complexities. Peace to you and all of God's magnificent love to you, too!
@tony
Tony Jesus healed on the sabbath and was falsely accused and hated on because of it. He was demonstarting that Love and Mercy are priorities for God. He exposed the hyprocrasy because they were willing to break the sabbath for there own good like saving there animals (lively hood) but unwilling to accept someone being healed on the sabbath in an act of Gods love. Basically there was no Love in these mens hearts. God is Love and We love God because He first loved us. Thats somewhere in the bible.
Wonderful enlightening conversation once again! So happy I found this channel.
If you ask God to save ya, He Will...Ive been through doubts , depression, and some very selfish moments...And He never left me..Praise God that He is Faithful even when I am not..Jesus Christ is the Way The Truth and the Life
I experienced this dynamic at the spiritual center I attended for a long time. There was a member who was about midway up the hierarchy of the ministry there, who I observed being very incongruent with the teachings of the center, and I really struggked for a few days as to whether I wanted to continue to attend a center that taught how to have a mature relationship with spirit, only to have someone who had attended for a while, and had taken numerous classes, acting inconsistently with those teaching. It finally dawned on me that I had to judge the teachings of that center by my own experience and implementation of those teachings, and not necessarily by the foibles of someone else not necessarily living them.
What's a "spiritual center"?
@@ravissary79, It's not a church, due to them not considering themselves exclusively Christian, per se, but the Center does function similarly as a church. I attended the Center for Spiritual Living in Fort Lauderdale. They have a website, so please feel free to look them up if you have any further questions about them.
The New Covenant is the Eucharist. Faith is obedience to the New Covenant. Luke 22:20. The Catholic Church lived the New Covenant under persecution for 300 years before the Bible was formalized and longer than the USA has been a country.
For anybody wanting a clearer exposition of this I recommend Dr Jon Bergsma's books. He was a Presbyterian minister, so he speaks in a way that's very understandable from a Protestant perspective
Covenant just means agreement or contact.
Yes, we have a New Covenant. But that doesn't mean we can't have a covenant together as a local community.
ERC Right. The covenant here in this church is a covenant between people and people not between people and God
@@erc9468 Actually, a covenant is nothing like a contract. A contract is a legal agreement that parties can opt out of. A covenant is life giving and and its binding until death. Pretty much why God became man to fulfill old covenant, and then die to establish a new one.
@@MNskins11
This is all just semantics. A Covenant is an Agreement is a Contract is a Compact. Same thing.
The old and new covenants in Christianity are just special types of contracts. Just look at what God and Abraham did in Genesis 15. This was how a contract was initiated in the ancient world.
Regardless, the covenant (or agreement or contract) that this Baptist church has on its wall is just a wonderful example of an agreement that Christians can have with one another.
Your 39,000 away from hitting 1,000,000 views with your 2 videos with Father Diaz!
Matt's mom needs to step up her game
OnePersonCirclePit 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
My advice to anyone who loves the Word of God is to get an audio Bible and play it in your house 24/7. Then when you go to church you will know what is being taught. If you are in Bible school you will have done your homework. It's not for everyone. Not everyone can do it. If you can and will do it then you will be reminded of what the Bible says all the time. I have been doing it for a few years now and I don't have time to tell you all it has done for me.
God bless you.
Hello Matt. Where is the other video where you talk to the catholic apologist? Been waiting to see it for weeks now. God bless you brother for what you are doing
You realize catholics never talk about you guys, right? You guys seem to spend a ton of time hating catholics and thinking about them. It's like having a stalker, you guys need to chill.
@@lll9107 I don't want to speak for Manuel TK but I'm guessing that we are both anxious for Matt to release Part 2 of that video because we want to have a better and more complete understanding of Catholic theology, not because we want to bully Catholics. I'm sorry that Protestants have left such a bad taste in your mouth but not all of us hate Catholics 🙄
On your better journey pastor. Come on home soon. Good idea.........covenant.
I have the Catholic church and the creeds. No individual covenants are necessary.
Sometime go weird at the parent level too...and that sometimes hurt. My parents and I feel that disconnect, but I and my wife don't. I'm committed to my faith, and this makes more sense to me than what I grew up with. I can't wait to see what else you have. Thanks Matt - keep it up!
I'm an agnostic but he's definitely an example of what I'd imagine a pastor should be
Cool!
I've seen this in small Christian communities. Where Christians join together regularly outside of a church setting.
As a Catholic however, the local parish is SUPPOSED to be your extended family.
I mean. That's the Biblical model.
We don't have a guy in Corinth who isn't really involved in the Corinthian Church.
But is in a small community with guys from Thessalonica.
I mean. That sounds weird.
But sadly, many Christians are doing just that.
So, yah. Extremely cool idea. Holding the local congregation to actually be in communion (& all that should entail) with each other.
That's awesome! 👍
Well, the reason you didn't have people in Corinth involved in the church in Thessalonica is is wasn't easy to get from Corinth to Thessalonica. It would take you 6 days and cost £6000 according to Orbis (assuming 1 denarius = £50, which is my opinion but values are difficult to find).
Orbis, by the way, is an online Google maps for the Roman world; it's worth going on to get a perspective about the difficulty of travel in that time.
But yeah, in terms of difficulty of travel, going from Corinth to Thessalonica back then is like going from the UK to Antarctica today.
I think you missed my point. I Judaism (traditional) one is to attend the local synagogue. Same in the early Church and how Christians lived until quite recently. We had a very charismatic Priest at our parish when I converted. People drive many miles to hear him. People adored and idolized him. As you might guess. It didn't end well.
We've seen horrible scandal in several Christian small group organizations.
I'm not against small groups. I'm in one.
I'm not saying you have to go to the nearest church.
Just that "I'll pick my own community" isn't the Biblical model.
We should join a church. Ideally nearby. And be fed and serve there.
Not be barely involved but deeply involved in some other group.
@@matthewweston643 hmm... not quite sure what you're saying here.
That cults of personality are bad? I agree.
I don't know what you'd need to bring up Corinth or Thessalonica for that though.
I was only using two well known NT churches. Shorthand. A better example would have been two Churches. Both in Rome (for example) but vin completely different parts of the city. Hopefully that's clearer.
@@matthewweston643 But do you have much evidence that a Roman Christian would necessarily go to their closest church community or whatever in Rome? I mean, maybe that's the case, but I'm not really aware of much evidence either way.
I've known of lots of churches that have had a copy on the wall, but we only read it when someone joined the church, which wasn't very often in the small church I grew up in.
It's not just a missionary Baptist covenant because a copy of that exact covenant hangs in the little country church in Missouri I grew up in, which is a southern Baptist church
Same one on the wall in my Independent Fundamental Baptist Church in GA.
I was raised in a Missionary Baptist Church and am still a member of the church I grew up in. I love seeing the church covenant up on the wall when I visit sister churches. It's a unifying symbol. I recently was at a revival and the pastor gave a great sermon on the covenant. Is this unique to Missionary Baptists or do other denominations have them as well?
Are your church a member of American Baptist Association? I am Missionary Baptist too.
@@isaganisoltes5011 We're a part of the Wiseman Association.
Something like this would have been useful when I was an Anglican. Their services got so monotonous, for me, that it lost all meaning... so I eventually gave up on it. Can't recall anyone checking up on me, to see why I was drifting away!
Visit a Quaker church!
Semita Anatis bring the oats while you’re at it.
Mikhail_Балика I personally like the grits. You should do the grits semita.
Beautiful Brother ❤️
A covenant is a great thing . Everyone needs something to follow and guide them. Also , This pastor is very intelligence and expresses himself extremely well . I’m in Alabama as well so all you folks that think we are all dumb as hell you’re wrong ! Ha. 100,000 subs is close man . Reward yourself with a Popeyes chicken sandwich . ✌🏼
It's become very popular for people to say by religion is always toxic. But I'm so glad that there are people showing that organized religion can and does make the world a better place.
Having a Bible is a case of religion being organized.
I too always thought it was comical for people demonize "organized religion". As if God delights in his earthly Kingdom being, unorganized.
I no longer have a home church because I fell out with the leadership of the rather small congregation as it was mostly the same people taking on leadership rolls, just moving seats. I was on the committee at the time. They also weren't interested in helping to move things forward, to encourage more people to join and help run things.
I grew up in a Baptist church that had and recited one of these church covenants. I wished that I could have read the one on their wall to se if it was like I remembered. These things can help, but I have also seen them hurt a church. They can help in ways that was mentioned in the video. They also can hurt as they tend to take people away from Sola Scriptoria as the covenant replaces scripture in dealing with issues. I have also seen it used as a replacement of love between the brethren. It also tends to focus on the externals rather than the internals, which is where the Pharisees doctrine fell short. Oh well that is my two cents, add $5 and get a cup of coffee.
I've only ever seen these used in an abusive matter, but my context is strictly SBC. Perhaps other denominations have used a CC more responsibly.
Most of them read the same. All I've ever seen has been a couple of words changed here and there.
We are a reformed baptist church and have a church covenant similar to this....
Excellent video. Thank you, Matt, for so many excellent videos! I do think that you shouldn't have said you were "lucky" at one point. We are blessed!
YAH bless u brother in JESUS name
Matt! Just realized that your mom has gotten pretty sophisticated with the bots. Almost 100k bots is impressive
Is this a jokey joke?
Congrats on 100k subs
Thanks!
Thanks for sharing more on such an intriguing series learning about other churches! Eagerly looking forward to more on the Holy Sepulchre & the Garden Tomb! It's interesting to think about the Holy Sepulchre seismic testing captured by National Geographic's Secrets of Christ's tomb explorer special in regards to Matthew 28:2.
Yes sir. Thank God.
But, what about this?
“Again you have heard that it was said to those of [m]old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.’ 34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 But let [n]your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one."
I grew up in a Baptist Church where making covenants were, normal procedure. All they were effective at doing was, adding another layer of guilt when you fail, and creating another barrier between you and the Grace of God. You feel like you must live up to the covenant before you can receive grace, this is counter to the gospel.
Ty for your been there, done that perspective, it's appreciated!
What keeps coming to my mind when I hear things we are to 'sign' to make us a part of 'the 'church', has no scriptural backing. Correct me if I'm wrong.
But I did find it a nice way to remind us how 'the church' is supposed to work together. A good overview for the new believer.
BarnGeek - you are exactly right. We are not to recite oaths and this “covenant” is man made. This guy kept saying this shapes us, but, the Holy Spirit guides us, and the Word.
I thought about this as well. My perspective is this isn't really what I read that passage to mean. They're not swearing on anything, they're just saying "this is what we're going to agree to go for this" knowing full well they're going to fail. I'm not a huge covenant guy, we don't do it at my church; but, if their congregation likes it I don't see anything inherently bad. I get your perspective too though and respect it.
Yep, definitely have experienced that at church. First time experiencing it was in my youth group when I was in high school. It is amazing how so many years later very few churches want to address this problem.
A Confession of Faith is something intrinsic to Sacred Tradition, a plain reading of Scripture. A Catechism is the teachings of the Church institution and clergy. The Covenant here sounds more like a Creed, its part of worship that is like the centrepoint of Scripture, Tradition and the Church, much like Communion/Eucharist, and may even be understood as a part of it.
This is the law and preaching it is great, however without the gospel leads to despair.
Do I smell a Lutheran?
Matt, I would LOVE to hear your whole faith story and how that all played out...Something similar to what Rhett & Link just did on their podcast. Maybe here? Maybe on NDQ?
Was that on Ear Biscuits, which episode?
Matt went through a small portion of that time in his life during the No Dumb Questions Ep. 015 on Sleep Paralysis
Like the 3 newest episodes
I freakn love it
Have one of those in my church and also in the Baptist Church manual. Both are suggested reading for all Baptists in my opinion. They take everything in the Covenant from the Bible. Hoping to find me one to buy and frame so I can hang it on my wall in my house
I like the idea of the Church Covenant, but as someone who was raised Baptist (in Australia), I also have a fundamental problem with it.
Part of being a Baptist is having the freedom of conscience, however that particular Covenant forbids the consumption of alcohol, which I understand is a common thing in Baptist Churches in the US, but it's not here in Australia. Furthermore, I find from my study of Scripture that whilst drunkenness is sinful, alcohol is a blessing from the LORD, and even commanded under certain circumstances. So even though I am, at my core a Baptist, I actually could not attend that church, because I could not make that profession every month, and have it be truthful.
So now I am barred from fellowshipping with other Baptists, over an issue of conscience. Whereas if I were to fellowship with Baptists who likewise refrained from all alcohol consumption, but who did not have a Covenant like that, then I would simply refrain from alcohol whilst fellowshipping with them.
To be clear, I don't rarely if ever drink, I might have one or two beers a year. I used to be a drunkard, but God miraculously delivered me from that bondage. This is not about the promotion of alcohol, and certainly not a defence of drunkenness, but a defence of conscience.
Other than that, I really enjoyed everything this brother had to say, and I agree with most everything he says.
I think it's important to note for those who oppose a church covenant. The church covenant is not being displayed or read as the Word of God. Those of us who have church covenants realize that without the new covenant that God has established, there is no church covenant. We know that Jesus established the new covenant in His blood for all believers for all time. Those of us who have church covenants are saying, "as a local expression of the universal covenant" we are vowing to uphold the new covenant that Jesus has established. Furthermore, the covenant is not legalistic as some has expressed, if you noticed two phrases in the church covenant, "by the Spirit of God" and "by the aid of the Holy Spirit." We realize that it is only by the Holy Spirit that we can live out the new covenant. Also, the church covenant is a guide (based on Scripture) it doesn't demand that everyone carry it out the same way. It is written in such a way that each person is free to carry it out on how the Holy Spirit moves in their lives. For example, there is a phrase that says, "to religiously educate our children." What is missing from that phrase? How to do that? Again, it leaves room for us to decide how to religiously educate our children. Does that mean we home school? Does that mean we do public or private school? Do we do a collaboration of both private, youth groups or personal family time devotions? The covenant leaves room for us to navigate what works best in your situation. In other words, it leaves room for the moving of the Holy Spirit for each individual. You can find support for educating our children in: Ephesians 6:4 “Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.” I think as you take a closer look at the covenant you will find that it is a good reminder and encouragement for believers to live out the new covenant in a local church body.
Great video Matt!!! Thank you for all your good work, but I´d really like to watch the second half of your conversation with the Catholic Theologian though.....
Glad you're looking forward to it. The next part of that conversation is a couple of videos out.
@@MattWhitmanTMBH Thanks Matt! God bless you all!! Greetings from Honduras 🇭🇳😊😊😊
Blessings everyone xx
Can you give me a copy of thisteaching or topic? Thank you
But...do we need to sign a paper to follow the word of God??? And agree to pay a percent tithe...and agree to behave...a certain way...my yes is yes...and no is no...we know a tree by its fruit....not a signed paper
Jesus blood is the new covenant. No need for more covenants. Human wisdom but legalistic. Jesus said, “Lee your Yes be yes and your No be no. Anything beyond this comes from the evil one.” Therefore, this is of the evil one.
How about The Salvation Army??? Please make a video like this about army.
Thank you for this one and this series! I am definitely one of the stuff got weird crowd, I'm back, but sometimes it's still hard. Could you tell your story, including those bits, or point me to a video where you do? Sometimes I think I need to hear those.
i grew up southern baptist and we used the same covenant. most baptist churches have used this covenant, as it was written in 1833and put in the "baptist manual" in 1853. not all churches had it posted on the wall, but it was printed in hymnals etc, many time recited at communion. my church had it posted in the vestibule. if he had read further, it says we wont use "intoxicating drinks as a beverage" meaning no alcohol. i wonder if he really calls out those who drink, which in effect is breaking to covenant.
Beautiful!! :)
The Presbyterian Church has a Constitution that had two parts. And individual Churches can have things like this.
It specifically states that telling on people is bad, and that people should be forgiven. And nothing against rape or abuse. Wonderful way to make shutting up rape and abuse cases look good...Wonderful way to make victims feel guilty for coming forward, and to guilt them into forgiving the person who hurt them...
Your allusions to your experiences really resonated, Matt. I do have to wonder if this sort of church experience is as common as it sounds, and if it is are we living in some kind of weird age of post-disillusionment where even affirmation of Christian faith is a reaction to Christianity or the church? Iunno my brain hurts and I'm seeing parallels between post-western films and religious ideology.
No one in one these churches have ever kept their pledge to these covenants. It should be said church goals.
Welp, Missionary Baptists just have to get that statement about alcohol in there, don't they. As long as they realize that drinking isn't a sin, but that getting yourself drunk is the sin, I can let it go. I am a Texas Southern Baptist. I have a drink now and then, but I have never in my life gotten drunk or even "buzzed." I realize that this may not be that easy for some people due to genetics and psychology and that it is, therefore, something to be taken seriously, but making it a central part of your church's covenant document is to lose your sense of priority. For example, I notice that gambling and provocative dancing (as other classic targets of Baptist disdain) are not mentioned.
The wording also seems to go against the ability of members to choose their congregation based on conscience. If taken seriously, this statement seems to lock the individual member into the support and membership of their specific congregation. While "church hopping" is a problem, freedom of conscience requires freedom of fellowship. Also, this document, especially as it is used across all Missionary Baptist churches, feels a little too close to "credalism" for this Baptist. We already have a document to refer to when dealing with member-to-member relations, discipline, and model behavior. It's called the Bible. I'm not sure why anything else should be necessary.
[Obligatory disclaimer!] No, the above criticisms are not an attack on MBs or their churches. Neither do they constitute a condemnation or call to disfellowship with MBs. If all believers are my, "brothers and sisters," then my fellow Baptists of the Missionary variety are very close to my heart indeed. To me, criticism is a sign of care and respect. Please take it that way.
"We already have a document to refer to when dealing with member-to-member relations, discipline, and model behavior. It's called the Bible. I'm not sure why anything else should be necessary."
What do you think about reading books and commentary about the bible? What do you think about sermons? Since we have the bible, why do we need people to explain it?
Personally I see this 'covenant' as just that; a focused, intentional explanation of what the bible says. It isn't the bible itself, but is sure can be mighty helpful to have someone/something remind us of what the bible does say!
@@LoudCommentor ,
1) I hope you have read the rest of my comment where I point out that I don't mean this as a condemnation.
2) The sermons, commentaries, etc. that you mentioned serve a different purpose than the document in question. They explain and exhort. We have examples of this type of thing in both the Old and New Testament. In at least one place that mentions when the Israelites were called together to have the Torah read out to them as a body of believers, it says that there were Levites placed among the people to explain what was read.
The point of this Church Covenent is not to expound on a difficult piece of scripture or exhort the people of God to follow the Bible's commands. It is, by the very word "Covenant" a binding, regulatory document of church organization. As I said, church organization, discipline, etc. are all handled fairly specifically and straightforwardly in a relatively small number of verses in the New Testament. Any Baptist pastor, deacon, or longtime member worth their salt should be able to cite a specific verse that refers to any question of church order that might arise. It really is quite straightforward.
Coming up with a separate document, with its unique set of priorities, for people to commit themselves publically to and recite on a weekly basis seems an odd thing to do when every member has a copy of the truly authoritative Document in his or her own hands.
3) Non-creedalism is a definitive aspect of Baptist belief. While this document has more to do with church order and individual behavioral expectation than the higher theology of most creeds, it still rubs up against the *purpose* of non-creedalism. The point is not that official church documents that people may place themselves under are themselves *incorrect,* but the very basic fact that they are authoritative statements that *are not the Bible.*
I don't disagree with any one point in this covenant. The point of non-creedalism, however, is that denominations such as the Catholic or Orthodox Churches got to where they are by building up their own structures, layer by layer, that might very well be meant to have a Biblical basis, but are still *not the Bible* itself. Even the best and most Biblically-orthodox document is a product of human beings at a given point in history and geography and speaks through that human lens. REQUIRING that such a document be given any authoritative position in the church is to dip one's toes into the mire that sank the Catholic Church and others in well-meaning, but human made, tradition.
Obviously, the Missionary Baptists are hardly about to appoint a Pope! As I said, my statements are simply meant as sibling advice, and constructive, loving, criticism. They, as fellow Baptists, are closer to me and mine in beliefs and practices than any one of the *many* other denominations out there that I am perfectly willing to call my brothers and sisters in Christ.
@@jameswoodard4304 Thanks for the long reply! Appreciate your thoughts; no offence taken nor intended! Unfortunately text can seem blunt sometimes; not my intention! Hope we can continue good convo, I am keen to hear more of your thoughts.
I am in agreement with all your points. Yet I also think that a document such as this, which can be referred to at times, can be quite helpful within a church.
Personally, if I were to use it, I would take several precautions:
- I would refrain from calling it a covenant.
- I would probably also refrain from using it as a creed/recitative, and find some way of using it as a resource (eg perhaps in small groups looking at it together with the bible).
- Whether it were recited or not, I would make sure that time and care is taken upon baptism/membership, and sometime throughout the year, to be explaining where it comes from through the bible.
- There is a concern about non-members, visitors, and new comers. How would they understand it in its proper place beneath biblical authority?
I see this covenant as a summarised work of systematic theology, looking at the idea of 'life together' and putting it all in one place to be read easily. I do think you would come up with the same summaries if you were to do a word/theme search on the topic (though I also agree that some of the phrases could do with changing, eg alcohol).
I would put it in the same place as gospel tracts, such as Two Ways To Live, or gospel summaries. Rather than expanding on scripture, they summarise, and I have found them a a helpful starting point for new Christians.
As a member of a baptist church myself I see the benefits of non-credalism, as well as the dangers of credalism. I also see that there are benefits to creeds, if well managed, well taught, and put in their proper place (being beneath authority to the bible).
-- Just had the thought. What would you say about worship songs? They do not expand or explain the scriptures in quite the same way as commentaries or sermons. Rather, they summarise, are not always paired explicitly with the verses that they are inspired by, and are not directly from the bible directly.
If this were a song, would you feel differently about it?
@@LoudCommentor ,
First, I totally agree with you about the "bluntness" of text. That's actually one reason I often type out such long comments and replies, so I can lay things out logically and include disclaimers. The YT comment section is an amazingly emotionally-sensitive place. I tend to express myself in a very systematic and logic-based (and long winded) way in text, but this generally reads (ironically) as me either being *extremely* upset or smarmy and arrogant, which leads to attacks on my character. It's very strange.
On worship songs, I don't know if you mean a specific genre or not so I'm just referring to all music used in a church setting from classical hymns to contemporary praise and worship, but I would again point to the difference in purpose and intent. Yes, songs do tend to encapsulate doctrinal points, but that is generally not their purpose, especially not these days. The incidence of using songs as teaching tools is quite low these days and really only applies to children who will eventually graduate to the firmer "meat" of the Word eventually anyway. Also, I think anyone basing their beliefs, doctrinal position, or resulting behavior on the lyrics of even the most well-beloved song is pretty obviously getting their priorities out of whack.
In the way of thinking that seems proper to me, music has much use, but zero authority in that it is meant as part of the human individual's side of the conversation with God. Scripture comes from God. Explanatory and doctrinal materials, though mediated by humans by definition, are on that same side of the conversation.(and therein lies the danger) They are explaining or detailing what God said, so to speak. However, music, like prayer, and as it is used within the church setting, is part of the human response to God and therefore has absolutely zero authority behind it. As long as we, as individuals and congregations, keep this in mind and behave accordingly, there really shouldn't be a problem.
That said, the orthodoxy of lyrics is still important. We don't want our side of the Conversation to be based on false understandings or to expose ourself to bad doctrine unawares. "Garbage in, garbage out" applies to elements of Christian culture as well as that of the rest of the World.
I made it serious mistakes for others (they were kids...), and others made mistakes with me (this was an adult). I can only pray that I get to make up to the kid one day.
Ps it's not pedo, no one died or got physically hurt.... Just something I won't admit publically.
Why do I get video game ads on your channel? 🤔
pyguy
Google owns TH-cam and the advertising is driven by what you watch and search . So after this video some of your adds might have some Christian content .
Blessings
I think that's great! Hopefully it happens because the Google algorithm believes a very diverse group of people with diverse interests watch these videos.
Because your internet activity makes TH-cam think you fit the audience for video games. It knows where you've been and what you do and what you search for. It's owned by Google. So it shows you ads it thinks you'd like to see.
I get but why make things up… not like the Nicene Creed hasn’t been around since 381
Is there a way to read this covenant online without pausing this video in the right place?
Every Baptist church I've been in, including my own, has one of these, and they are all very similar. Just Google "Baptist church covenant" and take your pick of the church websites that come up.
We had this same covenant in the church I grew up in. I remembered the start, "Having been led, as we believe, by the spirit of God...", and a Google search came across multiple examples. A specific one from Shiloh Baptist's website was my first hit and has the advantage of having Biblical citations for various points, if that is important to you.
Yes, it's linked a ways down in the description above.
Oh, man. I've accidentally destroyed a group when I was younger.
I didn't mean to, I didn't really do anything sinful, but, man, I destroyed that group basically by taking really seriously what everyone else just had as a casual interest. I'm so embarrassed by that, I consider changing my name pretty often.
Wait what? That sounds so interesting
What is your perspective on the dismantling of Rhett and Links faith (listen to ear Biscuits podcasts)? What brought you back from Atheism?
I would really like to hear about what brought Matt back from Atheism.
Love is not control or dominance. The garden of Eden promoted choice and free will . Covenants should be with God alone.
I had a dream that this ripped in two during church I feel like there is something bad behind this
7:32 and the occasional red
What Is a blood-oath covenant
you mentioned before in the comments that his church also recites the creeds, wouldn't that be awkward for them to accept the opinion of a council of bishops? I've always wondered about protestants using the Nicene creed, I mean the bishops at Nicea believed in priesthood and the real presence, I understand the stance of Lutherans or Anglicans, who generally accept the councils because they preserve some kind of succession.
it seems to me a bit strange to say this creed is our baseline for orthodoxy whilst rejecting the authority of those same bishops on just about everything else
not trying to be antagonistic, just wondering where you would disregard the fathers, would you accept their moral and doctrinal but not their teachings on priesthood? not catholic myself, was catholic but now im looking to orthodoxy
D L Moody "bro if you don't come back to church I'll burn your house down". 😂😂
I was dying when I heard about Moody taking out that coal and putting it on the floor. Dude didn't play around.
I'm sorry, but I see your titles and I just hear: What is a church covenant? What does a church covenant do? Is anybody listening to me?
A church covenant sets out what members of the church are expected to do. Back when it was written, they were probably trying to accomplish what we try to accomplish with new members classes today. In fact, when I wrote the material for our new members class, I included the church covenant in it.
Something I might push back on a little bit, Matt, is the idea that the only thing you see of God is the world he made and the church.
You know that's not true, God intervenes in the world directly, now, and in the past (and interacted in a special way in through the Word coming to earth as Jesus and also the inspiration of scripture). While it's true we many of these things we get know about visual and audible stimuli, which come to us via the light and sound in the world he created, even then God can come to us directly via the holy spirit, so it's not quite even true in that sense.
I think seeing God in the church and the world is important, but it's also important to see God primarily in his direct action.
I think that the "covenant" in this church is kind of cool, but perhaps it is emphasised a little too much.
As someone who does drink alcohol "as a beverage" (presumably to not count communion and alcohol gels?) and might even distribute it as a community event or something, the emphasis on that does feel slightly exclusionary. I have not had the same feeling at Methodist services I've attended, who also have a strong view on teetotalism. And most Christians drink (usually significantly more frequently than I do) so it's not even a majority view they're uniting around.
I'd worry, in a similar way, whether its centrality might put off nonchristians who are attending the services to check Christianity out; which is kind of a more important point.
I appreciate the thoughts! When I say "the world" I don't just mean the physically visible planet, I mean everything that's been made which encompasses most of what you listed as an addendum. The direct action you're describing happens in one of two places: The church (in the lives of Christians), or in the world (in physical things or in the lives of non-Christians).
I'd also balk at including the clause about alcohol in the church covenant, but I understand why it's there historically. Such a clause would most certainly be off-putting to some, maybe even most, but that said, you've got to give them credit for being up front about what they believe and how they do things so you can know whether it'd be a fit for you. Controlling groups don't give you that information until you're already in.
@@MattWhitmanTMBH Oh, thank you for clarifying.
Of course, if you're clear that "the church" includes yourself and scriptural authors, you don't necessarily have to be overly worried when the church you attend lets you down. (Of course you might let yourself down too, but your own experiences are the lens for how you find out any information about anything, so you have to trust them in some way at least).
Well yeah, I'm glad they are upfront about their opinion on it, in the same way I'm glad the Methodists I know are. I'm just a bit less comfortable about the way that this group make it central to their worship meetings.
@@MattWhitmanTMBH Exactly! 😊 If you're a Christian who believes that casual/occasional drinking is not acceptable, you'll want to join a body of believers who have the same beliefs and who will support each other in that belief.
light & sound and that’s precisely why Protestantism is false. It’s dependent on emotions and personal preference rather than absolute truth and unity in Christ. The Holy Spirit brings unity and understanding. Confusion and disorder is the work of Satan.
The Ten Minute Bible Hour while I respect you immensely Matt I’d have to disagree. I don’t respect them for being upfront about errors in faith and doctrine anymore than I’d respect a Mormon or JW for being “upfront”. Tolerant perhaps. But not approving.
Why doesn't the preacher use the church covenant spelled out in the book of Acts, like the original Christians used? Oh wait. There isn't any such "church covenant" spelled out in the New Testament. Baptists are cool but they tend to add a LOT to the simple gospel and trivialize some of the most important parts. For example, baptism is something a Baptist undergoes when moving from one assembly to another. This is a COMPLETE distortion of what Christian baptism is supposed to symbolize. It's NOT like taking wedding vows - as some Baptists will tell you - it symbolizes your participation in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus (see Romans 6). How many times did Jesus die and get buried? How many times was He raised from the dead? Baptists completely ignore the original purpose of baptism and thereby invalidate the whole ritual. So, in my opinion, Baptists are cool and everything but they tend to play fast and loose with the original faith of our fathers. Kinda like the Catholic Church does - only to a lesser degree. I would NEVER join a church where I had to swear an oath. Didn't Jesus command, "Swear not at all"? It would be foolish to violate the Founder's commandment in order to join a church that claimed to be of Him. Don't you just love human traditions that eclipse the direct commandments of God? I think Jesus had ought to say about that kind of thing too...
Matt, I have been with you almost from the beginning and have heard you mention several times how you previously lost you faith in God for a time. On this video you actually referred to it as being a Christian (accepting and confessing Christ as Savior and Lord), then being an athiest (denying God exists), then being a Christian again (accepting Christ as Savior and Lord). Did you say it that way to keep it simple and within the context of the video itself; or do you truly feel it is possible to lose your Christianity (salvation), not just struggle with maintaining and growing your faith?
To keep it simple. There's no theological statement implicit in that description beyond my own observable experience.
As nice as it is, it’s definitely a man-made tradition that binds people to a written code. We are to live by the new way of the Spirit.
Fair points. I think the Missionary Baptist response would be that they believe the values of their church covenant are reflective of life by the Spirit.
I suppose one could post the 10 Commandments (not man-made) and say that reflects life in the Spirit... but we aren’t to live like that.
“But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.” - Romans 7:6
tony
Hmmm, we are released from the 10 Commandments.
Only Christ makes all things new. As St Paul clearly wrote the Holy Spirit brings unity not confusion and disunity. To only live by the spirit is dualism and is a fundamental rejection of the incarnations mystery of Christ. Christ became man and rose from the dead because the physical was good and created by God. Guess what? The Bible was written and canonically ordered by man. But apparently that’s the one exception? You claim traditions are man made but yet you forget that Paul and Timothy make it clear to keep all they have taught. Whether via handed down tradition or written epistle. Christ also said he came to complete the law not abolish it. Tradition literally means to hand down. Rejection of sacred traditions is the rejection of the faith that Christ gave to his disciples and shows further the work of Satan in confusing the Protestants.
Mikhail_Балика
Take it up with St. Paul, bro. He clearly said we are released from the law. This is not dualism. You’re totally off track.
First in spirit
Yeah, but where in the Bible does it tell us to do that? Chapter and verse please.
These are great. But I have to ask, why 60 fps?
More real?
The problem with what you say (feeling in any given moment of your life that your church mades some stuff wrong and therefore you want to quit christianity) lies within different levels of Æ sistematiic problems, lets say. The first one is that your faith is worthless, for which is man made, ergo, false, and because is made by man, its not enought to fill you, because only god can truly fill your whole being. This is important to consider, especially in the protestant point of view, because when the unity of your church falls apart, which are your options? surely you consider that maybe other churches may be the right ones, but the problem with that (again, protestant viewpoint) is that there are just too many, literally dozens of thousands of different churches, none of them valid, because, you think, who are we to judge the neighbour? This is the main issue of the relativism, which serves as a foundation stone for the whole protestant branch of christianity. Theese issues dont happen in the Orthodox or the Catholic tradition
Sounds a lot like their Nicene Creek. It's what they believe and will live out. Why not stay with the original?
Deacon Ken Why are we to be loyal to the original Creed? It’s not directly from scripture, it’s just a statement of faith. If their creed is biblical (I believe it is) there’s nothing wrong with having their own. Be careful when holding on to things that are made by men. Just because the Nicene Creed is biblical, doesn’t mean it’s biblical to see it as the one and only document of the Church.
I think this covenant goes beyond the creed (which focuses more on factual beliefs held in common) as it includes a personal commitment to the church community. As far as I understand them, the creeds do not include any practical guidance on how members of the faith are to engage with the world or each other which is what this covenant lays out.
Steph oneness is a crown of unity which Christ prayed to the Father for on our behalf. There’s no unity amongst Protestants. This covenant is nothing more than a mission statement and marketing.
Luke Harkleroad yes they do. “I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ the only begotten son of God, Light from Light, true God of True God..” if you cannot ascertain the instructions for Christian life from that then either you read but don’t understand, or you don’t truly believe in the words of Christ. “If you love me then you will keep my commandments”. Tire belief inspires action. One isn’t “born again” via belief or statement of it either. The mistranslation of the original Greek John 3:7 was written in, doesn’t say “ye must be born again” the original wording actually means to be “born from above”. Go back to John 3:5 where Christ affirms one must be born of both the water and the spirit. Christ spoke in clear terms of the times. Not symbols. So what does this have to do with creed? Simple at the end of the original creed it says I confess one baptism for the remission of sins. Because it affirms our belief in Christ’s one sacrifice, and our rebirth in him which happens once. As he is part of one God and truly established one church. If all things are made in his image then they should reflect upon his nature. And if we confess our faith as Christians that enough contains the understanding of following Christ and having Christ like behaviour. This bickering of doctrine between denominations isn’t reflective of the unity of the Holy Trinity. This isn’t the true faith Christ established.
For one thing, Baptists existed before Catholics. For another, this is more like a new members class than it is a statement of belief.
Is God Almighty is a human being ???
God the Son became man at a certain point in time. It's what we Christians call the doctrine of the Incarnation. He remained God but took on flesh. After His resurrection and ascension He remains both God and man.
He is both spirit and man
MWJ '90 @ it is a Biblical and Historical Fact that Jesus Christ was a Jew. Christians said Jesus is a God . So God is a Jew ??? What a racial God !!!!
1974jrod @ Worship Of Jesus is Worship of color ( human ) White
@@teabag718 get lost
From my experience within the SBC (can't speak for other denominations and church covenants), RUN from any pastor who speaks of implementing a CC. These YR&R guys are big on it and they are consistently manipulative, abusive, and most dangerous of all they are equal parts charismatic and articulate.
It used to be that every Missionary Baptist church had a copy of the church covenant on the wall. Most of the small SBC and other groups probably still have one hanging up. Most likely, even the large SBC churches have a copy somewhere, though it may be rolled up and stuffed in a closet.
“Systemizing” the body sounds more like controlling or manipulation of members. The Holy Spirit will guide and teach us
I might not agree with every single item in their Church covenant, but the fact that they plastered on the wall for everyone to see when you walk in means they're not trying to control people. Controlling groups don't disclose their Hang-Ups oh, they disguise them until you're already too committed and can't leave.
The Ten Minute Bible Hour , hello, please re- listen to what this man said, just about every other word related to man made religion, control or manipulation, very deceptive, just like all religion.
No. Or rather i am forced against my will to be a citizen of this country i live in, i would like to leave here but circumstances won’t let me.
Where do you live sister
I should really stop whining. But there are a few things i must understand first. 😂