I have played this course hundreds of times and it is my daughter who is the junior champ referenced here. The course was almost always busy unless it had just rained as much of the course is in a low-lying area near a creek and thus floods. While I feel bad for the guy who was injured, having seen the course basically constantly over the past several years, I would be extremely surprised if anyone could say the church didn't make a "reasonable effort to maintain a safe environment for visitors." I also agree completely that when you engage in any level of athletic activity, you are assuming a level of risk that you may be injured. Unfortunately, the practical impact of this single claim is literally hundreds of people per week that are no longer able to play disc golf at the best course in Atlanta for beginners. I hope there is some resolution in the short-term and we don't have to continue to wait for the guy to determine the extent/cost of his injury.
Thanks for your personal perspective on this. I agree completely to what you stated. I'm curious if the act of signing a waiver might reduce their insurance premium. Although I realize that to do so would require staffing = budget costs.🤔
@@billycake5830 i run HR for around 70 employees. Most choose to opt out of healthcare due to the cost. Lets assume he has healthcare. With his coinsurance and out of pocket maximum, he could be very easily looking at a 5k-10k bill. Most people don't have that in savings nor would anyone want to take on that debt.
If disc golfers want to continue to have access to free to play and inexpensive courses, they need to take on the responsibility for injuries themselves. As more people file claims and liability costs rise, courses will continue to close, and the cost to play disc golf will go up. It is literally that simple. The community could start to make pariahs of those who file frivolous claims to get money, do discourage this problem, but I think given the hedonistic nature of the culture in the west, a few greedy disc golfers are going to ruin this for the rest of us.
How is filing an insurance claim greedy? Hey kid, take on 29k of debt, or be called greedy for filing an insurance claim. Do you have that much money to shell out? I sure dont
@@roll3605 thats a cop out answer. If you crash your car, you are calling your insurance company. When medical procedures are costing 5-6 figures and the average American has less than 5k in savings, it's not a surprise people will turn to insurance companies.
@@InbredJed82060 You made a misstep, and somehow that's the course's fault, and you're going to shut down a good disc golf course because money? Selfish. Greedy. Great way to close free to play courses.
I play this course often. The church does a great job with the upkeep and is extremely welcoming. It is definitely the best 9 hole course in Atlanta! I was pretty frustrated to hear about the course shutting down and immediately thought about the McBeth case as well I feel bad for the man who got hurt, but you have to understand that there’s a possibility of injury anytime you’re walking in the woods
if we had socialized medicine like most european countries, this claim might not have been filed because the surgery and recovery could've been heavily subsidized or totally subsidized by the government. Someone has to fall if there's no safety net to catch them and it sounds like it's going to be the church and local disc golf community in this case since it sounds like the person who sustained the injury knows how to navigate the situation.
@@ThomasBaker-qz4li The US pays more per capita for public health care than e.g. Scandinavian countries. It is possible to build a system in the US where public health care is cheaper for people and government and make it cheaper and better. There are not many who are willing to make changes towards it. It would not increase taxes or anything else. Pharmaceutical companies and many others would make less profit though.
@@kimmomatikainen1843Trust me, I am all in favor of a system like this and in general i prefer the public owning larger chunks of industries. Our politicians are too intertwined in industries that profit off our current health care system, either directly like health insurance, private hospitals and big pharma, or indirectly like the military industrial complex that gets the lion share of the US' gov spending. Republicans are strictly opposed to socialized medicine and most kinds of government spending beside military to protect profit for private companies, while pretty much every democratic presidential candidate of the last 20 years has promised a public insurance option except they never mention it again if they get elected
This feels like insurance companies being insurance companies and the church not knowing what they were in for if they told the claimant to pursue a claim. Liability insurance does exist for this purpose, but it seems like unless you have someone specifically trained to navigate these situations (like legal counsel), the best thing you can do for your facility is suggest injured parties pursue it through personal medical insurance first, even if that comes at the expense of the injured party.
There are risks with everything we do. I personally don’t skateboard as a hobby anymore because of the risk it poses to my health and ability to provide for my family. Every time we play disc golf, we are assuming a level of risk. Some courses have a greater level of risk than others. For the courses I play, I understand there is dangerous wildlife and uneven terrain. It is my responsibility to be aware of the risks and exercise due care. This situation sucks for all parties involved.
(1) As others have said, disc golfers should assume risk and be careful. (2) However, I understand the church's concerns. Maybe the solution is $2 per round donation or a modest membership fee option for regulars. It seems to be a very popular course that people want available, so this would cover the insurance and some maintenance.
Shoot. I badly sprained an ankle back in 2008 or 2009 when my follow through had me land on a root in front of the tee pad at an A tier/NT. I never even thought of trying to hold the course owner responsible. It was unfortunate, but I chose to play the course and take the risk.
If you replace "casual round of disc golf" with "pick-up basketball game" does the church take out the hoops when the premium increases due to a pending claim? Or does their insurance see a course as more "risky" than a basketball court or baseball diamond?
You're assuming the church has a baseball diamond and a basketball court. If so, they would've had a very strong liability policy for demonstrably more risky activities than disc golf. Based on this, I'll make my own assumption. They didn't have baseball or basketball activities.
It's routine for an insurerer to raise the premium after a significant claim is made or even drop the coverage completely. The church could possibly obtain a separate policy for the course from a company familiar with disc golf safety data. Risk managers would become involved and the various corporate structures would have to be carefully evaluated or created. Insurance is certainly available, but it actually can become cost prohibitive, especially for a group that's just offering a public service.
"It's routine for an insurerer to raise the premium after a significant claim is made or even drop the coverage completely. " You typed this like it was a normal thing.
I am in the industry and it is not “routine” for an insurer to raise a premium or drop coverage after a significant claim. There are many factors that are reviewed when making these decisions.
I’m not. I originally left a comment calling Kevin haveev a piece of crap but deleted it after hearing that the church told him to file a claim with their insurance. I still think it sucks but I can’t call him a piece of crap when he did what the church told him to do.
It's sad that people abuse these laws. I've played on some pretty rough courses and still could never see myself suing the owners if I got hurt because it is typically still self caused. Even if it isn't, unless it's something completely egregious, I assumed the risk when I went out. I've rolled my ankle, I've tripped on stumps and gashed my foot through my shoe. A friend of mine tripped on a stump and went shoulder first into a tree. It's part of the game. My local course does a pretty good job of putting orange paint on stumps that are in the fairway, but it's possible one gets missed, or it wears off before another coat can be applied.
Your final thought really reinforces my opinion that it's the insurance company that is to blame. Why does insurance go up when you use it? It's BS... if they just paid it like they are intended to everything would work out.
It seems like insurance these days ends up being a one and done situation. You have to have it in case something happens, and then when it does and insurance gets used, you can no longer afford the insurance for future uses
This is more an indictment against the US "health care" system than anything else. The simple fact is that most people, even lawyers(though that profession is not necessarily as economically stable as it is often presumed to be) are in real danger of being victimized by medical debt. It's the leading cause of bankruptcy in the United States. The safer option by far is to at least ATTEMPT to recoup the financial damages by making use of a standing insurance policy - let the deep pockets of the insurance agencies stand as a buffer between ordinary people and unexpected damages. You know, like insurance is supposed to work. The harm that it causes to affected parties in the meantime, in this case the church, is seen as acceptable to the for-profit "health care" industry.
@@pigs6486 For example Scandinavian countries spend a lot less money per capita in public health care than the US does. In here this guy could have gotten surgery for free in public hospital and pay $25 for each hospital night and that is it. US health care is built so that companies around health care get as rich as possible. Politicians, pharmaceutical companies etc. or even majority of the people are not ready to make changes to get better public health care. It would be quite easy to spend less money on it and have better health care.
One of my local courses is overrun with ground squirrels, they make massive burrows. Even using caution when the grass is over grown, I’ve fallen in to the point where I’m sunken past my knee. You guys are telling me that if you snapped a knee or femur on a course that wasn’t maintained properly you’d just eat the cost? What if you’re in construction like I am, and you don’t get paid if you’re not working? Still no claim? Your own insurance lapsed due to mass layoffs, still no claim? If you see a lawsuit and dismiss it as frivolous, you’re dishonest, to yourself at the very least.
So when I have to go to the chiropractor after playing a round at my local course because my shoulder and neck hurt really bad after I putted a crazy distance, should I file a claim against the town? Perhaps, I should just wait until I need to a shoulder replacement? this is a joke people...
This case sets a precedent. @@woodwindfixer9248 Apparently, we can grift medical payments for being a clutz and aggravating a pre-existing condition. Certain people/lawyers/ngo's make up these ridiculous rules so as to steal money and ruin others/businesses. We have all heard of ambulance chasers = attorneys. It's a HUGE Money scam. Bigger than we can fathom.
This is a completely normal thing to do when someone gets injured on someone else's property. You file an insurance claim, that is expected, that is reasonable and it is the correct thing to do. If your insurance company tries to gouge you for it, then you do not do business with that insurance company any longer and you can submit a complaint to the BBB. I've personally been through both sides of this when someone was injured on our property and when my mother was injured on a public accessible farm. In both cases a claim was submitted by the injured person and when insurance attempted to raise the rates the insurance was dropped and a new and better policy was acquired. Now one thing I don't believe about this story is that they don't have the money. It's a church with a HUGE community and it doesn't pay taxes. This is 100% on the church. They closed the course by choice, it was NOT "forced" to close. That's a misleading use of words. They are blaming it on the course when this could just as easily happen to any old lady walking up the steps of their chapel. It would be the same claim, same increase, same result. So you can remove the course it won't change a thing.
finally someone with some fucking sense! For some reason, people don't think its safe to assume this is a well off church when they have the means to put a 9 hole disc golf course on private property in a town where the median home price is 500k
yeah it's hard to imagine that because your metaphor is incorrect. Liability is different in public owned places vs privately owned places. I think most parks with running trails are publicly owned and most publicly owned parks are exempt from liability unless it's proved that the local govs neglect caused the injury. Try to keep up man
Interesting, it would be nice to know how exactly the injury occurred. To me it will have to be extreme negligence before I would even think about filing a claim on any course. If this injury was from tripping over a root, falling over a log, or slipping while throwing, in my opinion there should be no claim. Is this any different from hiking on a trail in a park and then tripping, most folks would not file a claim. The fact the claimant is an attorney says volumes. I have tripped on vines looking through saw palmetto for lost discs, never really injured but that is what we face playing in known conditions. We have all played on sketchy tee pads but we can usually see that they are sketchy tee pads and we throw accordingly.
Applying this to the standard of a publicly owned park is incorrect because that is not the situation, from what I understand, this course is on private land. Most states/municipalities have laws saying parties who are injured at their public parks have no legal recourse against the municipality unless they can prove the injury was caused by the local govs neglect of the space. So you're right, if this happened on a trail in a park, most folks would not file a claim because it would be instantly thrown out with few exceptions.
yeah, this is tough, play at your own risk should be posted in large letters at each course. I've hurt myself and slipped and fell, but nothing serious, this should be covered within reason by the insurance, but the 2nd thing here is the Insurance hiking p the rates to the point of having to close down the course is bad. I'd consult an attorney for guidance, DGDL should consult that institution.
I've injured myself a few times hiking in National and state parks here in Tennessee (mostly sprained ankles haha). However, I can't file an insurance claim against the federal/state government. I don't see how this is any different, a DGC should not be responsible for someone who hurts themselves walking in the woods, especially when the course is well maintained.
it's different because different liability is assumed in public places vs. private places, hope that helps man. Also, did you go to the hospital for your sprained ankles? What do you think the total cost of recovery was? The man in this case required an ambulance and surgery.
Welp we live in America where private health coverage is a serious demand. Unfortunately we have a set of morals and values that are very specific due to the nature of our country’s healthcare systems. I’d be curious how any of what golfers from the UK would have to say.
Would requiring a waiver solve this? Something as simple as “I acknowledge this property is super dangerous and I accept all risks of being here.” I don’t want to make my guests sign a waiver, it just doesn’t set the right tone. What about a sign at the entrance indicating passing that sign is agreeing to the waiver?
If a player gets hit by a vehicle due to a lack of signage or debris from a groundskeeper mowing the lawn or weed eating then that would be a case but there is an inherent risk when playing disc golf whether its a sprained ankle or a torn ligament, but with no witnesses its he said vs she said
Personally I feel that if I fall or something and hurt myself anywhere it most likely my fault and unless it is easily seen as a problem somewhere that it would be my problem to take care of myself. Recently I tripped over a small stump of around 2 inches and fell and hurt my wrist and busted up my face and I cleaned myself up at the next hole and went home it was my fault for not watching where I was walking.
I think about this often. I do not have Healthcare, so an injury like this could easily drain my life savings and put me in debt for years. Would i want to take on that or just file a claim with the insurance company? At the end of the day, we are all out for self preservation.
This is the real problem. any sane country there would be no issue, but most americans cant afford hospital bills so they sue. then the course closes and we all lose.
@@goobiesgamegarage4517 I'd agree with you. I'd love to be covered by healthcare and I'm more than willing to pay for good coverage. The available coverage is not great. Paying $600+ per month with a 5k deductible and 80% coinsurance when i havent been to a doctor in 6 years doesnt make sense.
this is interesting because if you think how many DGC's there are these incidences are very low percentage wise.....however! just as DG has evolved from handshake deals to player agencies does this tell us DGC's and those who manage them need to evolve too????
Even if the person injured didn’t file a direct claim to recover costs, it’s likely that his health insurance company will inquire about the cause/effect and location of his injury and seek to file for reimbursement against the personal injury insurance attached to the property insurance.
Entirely depends on the course and the situation. Maybe the church is great with the upkeep 99% of the times but as they say…. That 1% always bites back. With that said, there are certain courses that are straight up dangerous during certain situations. Try playing on a clay ground with nothing but hills after it rains.
What is the deal with hiking trails and/or other sports and recreational facilities? If you get injured on a field of some sort what does that look like?
it really depends on who owns the property, that's the crucial detail everyone seems to be missing in this. parks owned by the public are exempt from claims or suits unless negligence by the municipality can be proven, everyone seems to be framing this case in that context when the property the course is on is private. Therefore, the church is technically responsible for pretty much every kind of accidental injuries whether it's someone falling down the stairs or on the disc golf course even if negligence isnt prove-able. Feels like this is all avoidable with some warning signs and/or a waiver system.
Imo liability insurance should be used for freak accidents like a limb falling on a player or an eroded hillside falling out underneath a person. Filing a claim on a non contact injury doesn’t feel right to me. Is it possible for this guy to relinquish the claim or has the damage already been done?
Development of disc golf outside of US might be a real strategy for pdga. Instead of dealing with lawsuits which is a US thing. Until they have enough money to finance the lawyers. In Europe there are nearly no lawsuits of this type, because lawyers don’t win over the law system in europe and it’s almost impossible to win fluky cases.
Couldn't people take the same approach as South Park. Put up a disclaimer that says the course should not be played by anyone at any time, and doing so is at your own risk. That disclaimer has remained bombproof for 20+ years. I don't see why it can't be applied in these situations.
I think it's nice that chooses have insurance, but since insurance companies are starting to cost so much it needs to be put back on individuals that they have a responsibility for their own safety. If a person can't go through the course safely then they shouldn't be on the course.
If a person is injured due to blatant safety hazards resulting from negligence of the property owners there may be justification for a lawsuit, but if you fall down due to your own clumsiness it should not be grounds to sue the course owners.
I play this course often. There are no dangerous conditions other than trails going through the woods. If the guy tripped over a root or slipped on mud, it could have happened to any of the many people who walk through the property.
It's sad that insurance can raise your rates just because you used them. That is the entire purpose they exist. Also i feel bad for the people who get injured like this. I'm certain he has huge medical bills that he can't pay so he needs some assistance. I'm sure he doesn't want to sue either but he's left with no choice. The sooner we get universal health care the better
We can’t let idiots win cases like this in Atlanta or more of this crap will happen in other parts of the country. If this guy wins his case, it will ruin disc golf as we know it! How many disc golf courses will be shut down as a result of crap like this???
IDC, public courses don't require liability insurance so if this incentivizes more public courses and less private, im in favor of that. public courses are better for growing the sport imo
This is so so dumb. Premises liability on disc golf courses is so stupid. Sure - make or have a course taht is by it’s very nature supremely dangerous and don’t provide any notice. Like a glow round with a bucket right next to a 50’ cliff. Sure - sue that guy. But in general - you are outdoors on essentially trail like surfaces. It can be slick, uneven, undulations, muddy, loose rock, roots, etc, etc. also be on lookout for flying discs, etc. This is just so dumb and we might as well just close every course. Please find me the state where they have no or very very little premise liability. Geez
You're right that every state has premises liability laws BUT public land is exempt from pretty much all of those laws unless neglect can be proven. So lobby your local gov and get them to build/manage your courses if you don't want it subject to premises liability. I wouldn't be shocked if all private courses start adopting a waiver system if more of these situations come up (or at least post some signs about playing at your own risk). Seems like the church could've done a lot to avoid this situation, accidents happen and you have to be prepared for them, especially if you are legally liable for those accidents.
You take a risk every day just by leaving your house. This is another Greedy person trying to get paid. This guy should of taken up ball golf and pull this crap on a country club. More $ your Greedy pocket
It feels weird to me when the lawyer doesnt say that a guy was "allegedly" hit on the head with a disc. I dont honestly believe that the dude was, but thats just me
I call bullshit, I think a 150 year old church outside of a major city that has the means to build large community projects like a disc golf course (among other major renovations in the last 10 years) def has the means to pay for this man's recovery and the higher insurance premiums. Shutting down the course temporarily is either legal advice from a lawyer or an attempt to ice out the man who injured himself and guilt him into dropping the claim
Just because the church is old, doesn’t mean that a lot of people go or support it and the disc golf course is not a huge project. Maintenance money is requested on signs in the course and tee pads were a Boy Scout project which wasn’t paid for by the church
@@aaronlofton3230 I just watched the churches annual financial update from 11/2023 (it's on their donation page). They finished their year in the black for the first time in at least 5 years and they're getting a new roof this year. Even if a disc golf course is not a huge project (despite everyone who's played the course in this comment section saying it's very well maintained) just the real estate value of the amount of land required to build a 9 hole disc golf course in a town where the median home price is 480k hints that this is not a failing church
I have played this course hundreds of times and it is my daughter who is the junior champ referenced here. The course was almost always busy unless it had just rained as much of the course is in a low-lying area near a creek and thus floods. While I feel bad for the guy who was injured, having seen the course basically constantly over the past several years, I would be extremely surprised if anyone could say the church didn't make a "reasonable effort to maintain a safe environment for visitors." I also agree completely that when you engage in any level of athletic activity, you are assuming a level of risk that you may be injured. Unfortunately, the practical impact of this single claim is literally hundreds of people per week that are no longer able to play disc golf at the best course in Atlanta for beginners. I hope there is some resolution in the short-term and we don't have to continue to wait for the guy to determine the extent/cost of his injury.
Hopefully we'll be rooting for your daughter on Jomez someday! Cheers...
This is completely frivolous. I've played this course, it's no more dangerous than any other walk through the woods.
Thanks for your personal perspective on this. I agree completely to what you stated.
I'm curious if the act of signing a waiver might reduce their insurance premium. Although I realize that to do so would require staffing = budget costs.🤔
Play is at your own risk. Take responsibility for your own actions. Don't try to make others pay for your mistakes.
If you crash your vehicle, do you pay for the damages out of pocket or call your insurance company?
i have these signs in my SAW trap so my victims cant make me shut down my SAW trap
@@InbredJed82060 but the dude should have his own personal health insurance to cover this, right? Why file a claim on the church's insurance?
@@billycake5830 i run HR for around 70 employees. Most choose to opt out of healthcare due to the cost.
Lets assume he has healthcare. With his coinsurance and out of pocket maximum, he could be very easily looking at a 5k-10k bill. Most people don't have that in savings nor would anyone want to take on that debt.
@@InbredJed82060 you must be fun at parties.
Feel bad for dude who got hurt, but this seems frivolous unless he can prove there was a neglected danger on the property.
If disc golfers want to continue to have access to free to play and inexpensive courses, they need to take on the responsibility for injuries themselves. As more people file claims and liability costs rise, courses will continue to close, and the cost to play disc golf will go up. It is literally that simple. The community could start to make pariahs of those who file frivolous claims to get money, do discourage this problem, but I think given the hedonistic nature of the culture in the west, a few greedy disc golfers are going to ruin this for the rest of us.
How is filing an insurance claim greedy? Hey kid, take on 29k of debt, or be called greedy for filing an insurance claim. Do you have that much money to shell out? I sure dont
File a claim on your own insurance. If you dont have your own insurance you just learned a hard lesson. Play at your own risk.@@InbredJed82060
Take responsibility for your own actions. That’s all people need to do
@@roll3605 thats a cop out answer. If you crash your car, you are calling your insurance company. When medical procedures are costing 5-6 figures and the average American has less than 5k in savings, it's not a surprise people will turn to insurance companies.
@@InbredJed82060 You made a misstep, and somehow that's the course's fault, and you're going to shut down a good disc golf course because money? Selfish. Greedy. Great way to close free to play courses.
I play this course often. The church does a great job with the upkeep and is extremely welcoming. It is definitely the best 9 hole course in Atlanta!
I was pretty frustrated to hear about the course shutting down and immediately thought about the McBeth case as well
I feel bad for the man who got hurt, but you have to understand that there’s a possibility of injury anytime you’re walking in the woods
Common sense isn’t common. Losers want a free ride for their stupidity
That is too bad.
Keep us up to date on the course.
This is such an American phenomenon. My head aches.
if we had socialized medicine like most european countries, this claim might not have been filed because the surgery and recovery could've been heavily subsidized or totally subsidized by the government. Someone has to fall if there's no safety net to catch them and it sounds like it's going to be the church and local disc golf community in this case since it sounds like the person who sustained the injury knows how to navigate the situation.
@@ThomasBaker-qz4li right. American problem
@@ThomasBaker-qz4li The US pays more per capita for public health care than e.g. Scandinavian countries. It is possible to build a system in the US where public health care is cheaper for people and government and make it cheaper and better. There are not many who are willing to make changes towards it. It would not increase taxes or anything else.
Pharmaceutical companies and many others would make less profit though.
@@kimmomatikainen1843Trust me, I am all in favor of a system like this and in general i prefer the public owning larger chunks of industries.
Our politicians are too intertwined in industries that profit off our current health care system, either directly like health insurance, private hospitals and big pharma, or indirectly like the military industrial complex that gets the lion share of the US' gov spending.
Republicans are strictly opposed to socialized medicine and most kinds of government spending beside military to protect profit for private companies, while pretty much every democratic presidential candidate of the last 20 years has promised a public insurance option except they never mention it again if they get elected
This feels like insurance companies being insurance companies and the church not knowing what they were in for if they told the claimant to pursue a claim.
Liability insurance does exist for this purpose, but it seems like unless you have someone specifically trained to navigate these situations (like legal counsel), the best thing you can do for your facility is suggest injured parties pursue it through personal medical insurance first, even if that comes at the expense of the injured party.
There are risks with everything we do. I personally don’t skateboard as a hobby anymore because of the risk it poses to my health and ability to provide for my family. Every time we play disc golf, we are assuming a level of risk. Some courses have a greater level of risk than others. For the courses I play, I understand there is dangerous wildlife and uneven terrain. It is my responsibility to be aware of the risks and exercise due care. This situation sucks for all parties involved.
This is my local course, had no idea of the background. Thanks for making this video!
(1) As others have said, disc golfers should assume risk and be careful.
(2) However, I understand the church's concerns. Maybe the solution is $2 per round donation or a modest membership fee option for regulars. It seems to be a very popular course that people want available, so this would cover the insurance and some maintenance.
I just love that this channel exists.
Right?!?! Every time something legal-ish comes down the pike with disc golf, I'm just waiting on Chris to spell it out for us. Great resource!
Shoot. I badly sprained an ankle back in 2008 or 2009 when my follow through had me land on a root in front of the tee pad at an A tier/NT. I never even thought of trying to hold the course owner responsible. It was unfortunate, but I chose to play the course and take the risk.
If you replace "casual round of disc golf" with "pick-up basketball game" does the church take out the hoops when the premium increases due to a pending claim? Or does their insurance see a course as more "risky" than a basketball court or baseball diamond?
You're assuming the church has a baseball diamond and a basketball court. If so, they would've had a very strong liability policy for demonstrably more risky activities than disc golf. Based on this, I'll make my own assumption. They didn't have baseball or basketball activities.
They have a basketball court right off the last hole where they hold church league games and other events
@@flyingfishsurf There's literally footage of the church gym with basketball hoops in this video.
It's routine for an insurerer to raise the premium after a significant claim is made or even drop the coverage completely. The church could possibly obtain a separate policy for the course from a company familiar with disc golf safety data. Risk managers would become involved and the various corporate structures would have to be carefully evaluated or created. Insurance is certainly available, but it actually can become cost prohibitive, especially for a group that's just offering a public service.
"It's routine for an insurerer to raise the premium after a significant claim is made or even drop the coverage completely. "
You typed this like it was a normal thing.
I am in the industry and it is not “routine” for an insurer to raise a premium or drop coverage after a significant claim. There are many factors that are reviewed when making these decisions.
Everyone seems to be ignoring the statement that a church representative suggested he file a claim.
Oh please. He’s a lawyer, he knew exactly what would happen.
I’m not. I originally left a comment calling Kevin haveev a piece of crap but deleted it after hearing that the church told him to file a claim with their insurance. I still think it sucks but I can’t call him a piece of crap when he did what the church told him to do.
It's sad that people abuse these laws. I've played on some pretty rough courses and still could never see myself suing the owners if I got hurt because it is typically still self caused. Even if it isn't, unless it's something completely egregious, I assumed the risk when I went out. I've rolled my ankle, I've tripped on stumps and gashed my foot through my shoe. A friend of mine tripped on a stump and went shoulder first into a tree. It's part of the game. My local course does a pretty good job of putting orange paint on stumps that are in the fairway, but it's possible one gets missed, or it wears off before another coat can be applied.
The videos you got for reasonable care 5:12 including Ricky's "raptor round" were great! LOL'd.
Played this course, was very impressed with the upkeep and how nice it all felt. Throw the case like one of my drives, Out!
Its in the fucking woods! If you trip over a rock or branch, that's par for the course. I hope this ambulance chaser doesn't get a dime.
I got tennis elbow from disc golf. Who can I sue? The disc maker for not forewarning me of the risk of injury?
Your final thought really reinforces my opinion that it's the insurance company that is to blame. Why does insurance go up when you use it? It's BS... if they just paid it like they are intended to everything would work out.
It seems like insurance these days ends up being a one and done situation. You have to have it in case something happens, and then when it does and insurance gets used, you can no longer afford the insurance for future uses
Sounds like a grift.
This is more an indictment against the US "health care" system than anything else.
The simple fact is that most people, even lawyers(though that profession is not necessarily as economically stable as it is often presumed to be) are in real danger of being victimized by medical debt. It's the leading cause of bankruptcy in the United States.
The safer option by far is to at least ATTEMPT to recoup the financial damages by making use of a standing insurance policy - let the deep pockets of the insurance agencies stand as a buffer between ordinary people and unexpected damages. You know, like insurance is supposed to work.
The harm that it causes to affected parties in the meantime, in this case the church, is seen as acceptable to the for-profit "health care" industry.
Too bad we spend TRILLIONS on our lovely WAR budget. Go military! Woo!!!!
@@pigs6486 For example Scandinavian countries spend a lot less money per capita in public health care than the US does. In here this guy could have gotten surgery for free in public hospital and pay $25 for each hospital night and that is it.
US health care is built so that companies around health care get as rich as possible. Politicians, pharmaceutical companies etc. or even majority of the people are not ready to make changes to get better public health care. It would be quite easy to spend less money on it and have better health care.
One of my local courses is overrun with ground squirrels, they make massive burrows. Even using caution when the grass is over grown, I’ve fallen in to the point where I’m sunken past my knee. You guys are telling me that if you snapped a knee or femur on a course that wasn’t maintained properly you’d just eat the cost? What if you’re in construction like I am, and you don’t get paid if you’re not working? Still no claim? Your own insurance lapsed due to mass layoffs, still no claim? If you see a lawsuit and dismiss it as frivolous, you’re dishonest, to yourself at the very least.
A few bad apples are going to ruin the great thing we have going for us…
So when I have to go to the chiropractor after playing a round at my local course because my shoulder and neck hurt really bad after I putted a crazy distance, should I file a claim against the town? Perhaps, I should just wait until I need to a shoulder replacement? this is a joke people...
The town is not responsible for your bad form 😂
This case sets a precedent. @@woodwindfixer9248 Apparently, we can grift medical payments for being a clutz and aggravating a pre-existing condition. Certain people/lawyers/ngo's make up these ridiculous rules so as to steal money and ruin others/businesses. We have all heard of ambulance chasers = attorneys. It's a HUGE Money scam. Bigger than we can fathom.
This is a completely normal thing to do when someone gets injured on someone else's property. You file an insurance claim, that is expected, that is reasonable and it is the correct thing to do. If your insurance company tries to gouge you for it, then you do not do business with that insurance company any longer and you can submit a complaint to the BBB. I've personally been through both sides of this when someone was injured on our property and when my mother was injured on a public accessible farm. In both cases a claim was submitted by the injured person and when insurance attempted to raise the rates the insurance was dropped and a new and better policy was acquired. Now one thing I don't believe about this story is that they don't have the money. It's a church with a HUGE community and it doesn't pay taxes. This is 100% on the church. They closed the course by choice, it was NOT "forced" to close. That's a misleading use of words. They are blaming it on the course when this could just as easily happen to any old lady walking up the steps of their chapel. It would be the same claim, same increase, same result. So you can remove the course it won't change a thing.
finally someone with some fucking sense! For some reason, people don't think its safe to assume this is a well off church when they have the means to put a 9 hole disc golf course on private property in a town where the median home price is 500k
Imagine trying to sue a park because one tripped while trail running.
yeah it's hard to imagine that because your metaphor is incorrect. Liability is different in public owned places vs privately owned places. I think most parks with running trails are publicly owned and most publicly owned parks are exempt from liability unless it's proved that the local govs neglect caused the injury.
Try to keep up man
No one wants to play Brook Run either.
Interesting, it would be nice to know how exactly the injury occurred. To me it will have to be extreme negligence before I would even think about filing a claim on any course. If this injury was from tripping over a root, falling over a log, or slipping while throwing, in my opinion there should be no claim. Is this any different from hiking on a trail in a park and then tripping, most folks would not file a claim. The fact the claimant is an attorney says volumes. I have tripped on vines looking through saw palmetto for lost discs, never really injured but that is what we face playing in known conditions. We have all played on sketchy tee pads but we can usually see that they are sketchy tee pads and we throw accordingly.
Applying this to the standard of a publicly owned park is incorrect because that is not the situation, from what I understand, this course is on private land.
Most states/municipalities have laws saying parties who are injured at their public parks have no legal recourse against the municipality unless they can prove the injury was caused by the local govs neglect of the space.
So you're right, if this happened on a trail in a park, most folks would not file a claim because it would be instantly thrown out with few exceptions.
yeah, this is tough, play at your own risk should be posted in large letters at each course. I've hurt myself and slipped and fell, but nothing serious, this should be covered within reason by the insurance, but the 2nd thing here is the Insurance hiking p the rates to the point of having to close down the course is bad. I'd consult an attorney for guidance, DGDL should consult that institution.
I've injured myself a few times hiking in National and state parks here in Tennessee (mostly sprained ankles haha). However, I can't file an insurance claim against the federal/state government. I don't see how this is any different, a DGC should not be responsible for someone who hurts themselves walking in the woods, especially when the course is well maintained.
it's different because different liability is assumed in public places vs. private places, hope that helps man.
Also, did you go to the hospital for your sprained ankles? What do you think the total cost of recovery was? The man in this case required an ambulance and surgery.
Welp we live in America where private health coverage is a serious demand. Unfortunately we have a set of morals and values that are very specific due to the nature of our country’s healthcare systems. I’d be curious how any of what golfers from the UK would have to say.
Would requiring a waiver solve this? Something as simple as “I acknowledge this property is super dangerous and I accept all risks of being here.” I don’t want to make my guests sign a waiver, it just doesn’t set the right tone. What about a sign at the entrance indicating passing that sign is agreeing to the waiver?
If a player gets hit by a vehicle due to a lack of signage or debris from a groundskeeper mowing the lawn or weed eating then that would be a case but there is an inherent risk when playing disc golf whether its a sprained ankle or a torn ligament, but with no witnesses its he said vs she said
I agree with you but your analogy is bad. There is inherent risk every time you drive a car as well, but we take that on
lol you shouldnt need a sign to not get hit by a vehicle bud.
Personally I feel that if I fall or something and hurt myself anywhere it most likely my fault and unless it is easily seen as a problem somewhere that it would be my problem to take care of myself. Recently I tripped over a small stump of around 2 inches and fell and hurt my wrist and busted up my face and I cleaned myself up at the next hole and went home it was my fault for not watching where I was walking.
dude just said "i got some ouchies and they barely even hurt"
calm down man, doesn't sound like you broke a bone and required surgery from your fall
If there’s negligence, it’s an certainly issue. But players can be negligent too and we play at our own risks.
I think about this often. I do not have Healthcare, so an injury like this could easily drain my life savings and put me in debt for years. Would i want to take on that or just file a claim with the insurance company? At the end of the day, we are all out for self preservation.
This is the real problem. any sane country there would be no issue, but most americans cant afford hospital bills so they sue. then the course closes and we all lose.
@@goobiesgamegarage4517 I'd agree with you. I'd love to be covered by healthcare and I'm more than willing to pay for good coverage. The available coverage is not great. Paying $600+ per month with a 5k deductible and 80% coinsurance when i havent been to a doctor in 6 years doesnt make sense.
Chased his own ambulance
this is interesting because if you think how many DGC's there are these incidences are very low percentage wise.....however! just as DG has evolved from handshake deals to player agencies does this tell us DGC's and those who manage them need to evolve too????
Even if the person injured didn’t file a direct claim to recover costs, it’s likely that his health insurance company will inquire about the cause/effect and location of his injury and seek to file for reimbursement against the personal injury insurance attached to the property insurance.
Make him prove the accident happened there. How do you know he didn't fall at home. Then have someone help him go there so he could file a claim.
Stop embarrassing yourself.
Don't disc golf unless you accept the inherent dangers. Idiot lawyer trying to abuse the system..
Entirely depends on the course and the situation. Maybe the church is great with the upkeep 99% of the times but as they say…. That 1% always bites back.
With that said, there are certain courses that are straight up dangerous during certain situations. Try playing on a clay ground with nothing but hills after it rains.
2:16 Casual not Causal. I'm sure you use the second word a lot more than most folks.
Insurance companies love to take your money every month but really, really hate to hold up their end of the bargain.
What is the deal with hiking trails and/or other sports and recreational facilities? If you get injured on a field of some sort what does that look like?
it really depends on who owns the property, that's the crucial detail everyone seems to be missing in this. parks owned by the public are exempt from claims or suits unless negligence by the municipality can be proven, everyone seems to be framing this case in that context when the property the course is on is private. Therefore, the church is technically responsible for pretty much every kind of accidental injuries whether it's someone falling down the stairs or on the disc golf course even if negligence isnt prove-able. Feels like this is all avoidable with some warning signs and/or a waiver system.
Imo liability insurance should be used for freak accidents like a limb falling on a player or an eroded hillside falling out underneath a person. Filing a claim on a non contact injury doesn’t feel right to me.
Is it possible for this guy to relinquish the claim or has the damage already been done?
I stepped on a thorn, when should I see my compensation?
^this guy broke his ankle and needed surgery from stepping on a thorn 🗣 HE ADMIT IT
Development of disc golf outside of US might be a real strategy for pdga. Instead of dealing with lawsuits which is a US thing. Until they have enough money to finance the lawyers.
In Europe there are nearly no lawsuits of this type, because lawyers don’t win over the law system in europe and it’s almost impossible to win fluky cases.
damages aren't as high for an injury like this in europe because most european countries have socialized medicine
Couldn't people take the same approach as South Park. Put up a disclaimer that says the course should not be played by anyone at any time, and doing so is at your own risk. That disclaimer has remained bombproof for 20+ years. I don't see why it can't be applied in these situations.
What did the little lawyer with a serious lack of talent and a broken ankle get for Christmas???!!!???
I think it's nice that chooses have insurance, but since insurance companies are starting to cost so much it needs to be put back on individuals that they have a responsibility for their own safety. If a person can't go through the course safely then they shouldn't be on the course.
Some people should just stay inside and not to go out to touch grass.
If a person is injured due to blatant safety hazards resulting from negligence of the property owners there may be justification for a lawsuit, but if you fall down due to your own clumsiness it should not be grounds to sue the course owners.
I play this course often. There are no dangerous conditions other than trails going through the woods. If the guy tripped over a root or slipped on mud, it could have happened to any of the many people who walk through the property.
this isnt a lawsuit, it's an insurance claim
It's sad that insurance can raise your rates just because you used them. That is the entire purpose they exist.
Also i feel bad for the people who get injured like this. I'm certain he has huge medical bills that he can't pay so he needs some assistance. I'm sure he doesn't want to sue either but he's left with no choice. The sooner we get universal health care the better
We can’t let idiots win cases like this in Atlanta or more of this crap will happen in other parts of the country. If this guy wins his case, it will ruin disc golf as we know it! How many disc golf courses will be shut down as a result of crap like this???
IDC, public courses don't require liability insurance so if this incentivizes more public courses and less private, im in favor of that. public courses are better for growing the sport imo
Everyone nowadays are so quick to sue others for their own decisions.
No one wants to earn a living, they want hand outs.
this is not a lawsuit, it's an insurance claim
Touchy subject, insurance is good protection. If this becomes a trend it will not help the growth of our sport.
we should want more public courses and less private then
This is such an american thing... Lawsuits lawsutis lawsuits. System is trash.
This is so so dumb.
Premises liability on disc golf courses is so stupid. Sure - make or have a course taht is by it’s very nature supremely dangerous and don’t provide any notice. Like a glow round with a bucket right next to a 50’ cliff. Sure - sue that guy.
But in general - you are outdoors on essentially trail like surfaces. It can be slick, uneven, undulations, muddy, loose rock, roots, etc, etc. also be on lookout for flying discs, etc.
This is just so dumb and we might as well just close every course. Please find me the state where they have no or very very little premise liability. Geez
You're right that every state has premises liability laws BUT public land is exempt from pretty much all of those laws unless neglect can be proven. So lobby your local gov and get them to build/manage your courses if you don't want it subject to premises liability.
I wouldn't be shocked if all private courses start adopting a waiver system if more of these situations come up (or at least post some signs about playing at your own risk). Seems like the church could've done a lot to avoid this situation, accidents happen and you have to be prepared for them, especially if you are legally liable for those accidents.
You take a risk every day just by leaving your house. This is another Greedy person trying to get paid. This guy should of taken up ball golf and pull this crap on a country club. More $ your Greedy pocket
100% not the best course in the ATL area. How could you even say that with it being only 9 holes?
This is soooo bogus. Dude falls and it’s their fault? Not right.
Douches are gonna Douche.
It feels weird to me when the lawyer doesnt say that a guy was "allegedly" hit on the head with a disc. I dont honestly believe that the dude was, but thats just me
Don't be a Keven !
Probably hates churches…
Too many lawyers
this is hilariously soft.
Between these kooks and a guy named Nate, DG's future is looking bleak. I remember when those who played loved the sport and didn't get sue-happy.
this is not a lawsuit, it's an insurance claim
Ignore such legal bs, it’s required to have a soul.
I call bullshit, I think a 150 year old church outside of a major city that has the means to build large community projects like a disc golf course (among other major renovations in the last 10 years) def has the means to pay for this man's recovery and the higher insurance premiums. Shutting down the course temporarily is either legal advice from a lawyer or an attempt to ice out the man who injured himself and guilt him into dropping the claim
Just because the church is old, doesn’t mean that a lot of people go or support it and the disc golf course is not a huge project. Maintenance money is requested on signs in the course and tee pads were a Boy Scout project which wasn’t paid for by the church
@@aaronlofton3230 I just watched the churches annual financial update from 11/2023 (it's on their donation page). They finished their year in the black for the first time in at least 5 years and they're getting a new roof this year.
Even if a disc golf course is not a huge project (despite everyone who's played the course in this comment section saying it's very well maintained) just the real estate value of the amount of land required to build a 9 hole disc golf course in a town where the median home price is 480k hints that this is not a failing church