More than half the public courses I have played had other park users interacting with the course design in some fashion. In fact, I'd say it is probably closer to 4 in 5 public courses have other park users that can potentially be struck at some point if the player is not exercising caution when they throw. Either we learn to exist together or we start losing courses when governments rip them out.
The issue isn't that it is mixed use, it is the year of volume of people. The courses I play, all but one is mixed use, but I would say it is rare that I encounter more than two or three people if that during an entire round, so it is very easy to avoid. But this is just like very bad plan from the start. Part of this is just speculation, but I seriously doubt Innova had any idea just how much pedestrian traffic this had, and the government entities approving it would not have known the dangers of errant shots. They would have been looking at the intended fairways and displayed, so this was in my opinion, an irresponsible course designer, and rather than waiting until I could find a good, safe location, they put one in, which resulted in an innocent person being blind in one eye for the rest of their life. And the thing is, even though the player didn't get sued, it's got to be hard on the conscience knowing that your throw not only caused someone to go half-blind, but to get the course shut down, and it's not their fault, it's bad course design, but it's still going to be on their mind.
@@clintsawyer7702 Without knowing the course and without knowing the specific facts of the case, I don't know how much can be blamed on the player. If the woman was on the fairway and hiding under a tree where the thrower's view of her was obstructed by the tree, they would have never known. Personally I have almost accidentally hit people twice, ironically both dog walkers who were walking middle fairway of a blind curve on a wooded course...they weren't when I looked before throwing.
@@will.green. I would love more private courses, but don't think the revenue is there yet... And disc golf etiquette dang sure ain't there yet, either. If I'm paying to play, I don't want to deal with the party of six who refuse to let you play through or the sprinter throwing as fast as possible behind you but doesn't want to play through.
If there are signs up clearly stating "danger, flying discs" then its on the lady. Otherwise its on the city. Only problem with that is you can say goodbye to city disc golf courses if there's a chance of litigation. The city should have shut down the course during the special event.
if the disc golf hole was near the xc spectators, its on the city whether there was a sign or not. if it was just some idiot throwing in a random spot then its on the golfer
Polliwog had signs but most of the people that attended the park, signs or not, had no idea there was disc golf there. It’s a park the had a kids playground, random picnickers, dog walkers, an amphitheater, pot smokers…all kinds…It was 100% on the idiot who threw at people and didn’t think about the consequences. I played there a ton and never hit anyone.
If there were to be no immunity for municipalities then why in the world would they build out any kind of park or trail or anything that included any kind of risk. You should not be able to sue because jimmy fell off the monkey bars, unless they were not properly maintained. That's why park courses should be clearly marked and possibly sectioned off. The number of times some kid has come running from behind a tree from the soccer fields through the fairway or the number of early fall photo shoots in freshly cut fairways is crazy.
that pollywog park course was such a terrible idea, how did so many people pass that along the line without never stopping to ask if it was even a good idea
Probably the perspective of people that don't know the sport. Ok so disc golf is played with what? oh it's essentially a frisbee? What possible damage could that do?
It was a pitch n putt…if you don’t have the basic intelligence to know not to throw directly at people when the park is crowded, then we should shut down all disc golf courses at mixed use parks right? One idiot ruined it for everyone. I played there a lot.
The case with the grandmother seems interesting in that anyone could claim that they were NOT participating in recreational activity, even though recreational activity is certainly why they are there. They may not be actively participating, but if they are watching someone who is, then a lawsuit seems almost inevitable. Does this mean that anyone in the gallery at a PDGA/DGPT event could file a suit should they get hit with a disc?
Except she wasn't injured by a stray ball kicked by someone in the recreational league she was watching while sitting in the bleachers, she was leaving the park. There was no recreation, or enjoyment of recreation, when the incident occurred. In your PDGA/DGPT example, I would side with Disc Golf dot Laws closing personal opinion. Whether playing, or there to enjoy, you accept some amount of risk. A fan at a baseball game or hockey game does just the same. But that's in stark contrast to the gentleman walking outside the ballpark who is struck in the head by a home run. I know nowadays many disc golf parks "close" for large competitions, but local C tiers rarely do. So a person walking on the trails in a park struck in the head by a stray disc to me falls under the same category as the home run. There was no participation in the event, nor expectation of risk or danger regarding head trauma during a walk. So I'd say the case of Pollwag Park was settled well with the $3M agreement.
@@FutureEngineer92 I went back to 5:31 to re-listen to that section. He said, "because the grandmother was not using the park for her own recreational purposes...". She was there watching her grandkids who WERE using it for their own recreational purposes. How does this differ from a person in the gallery, following the tour? They are NOT using the park for their own recreational purposes. They are just walking along watching others who ARE using it for their own recreational purposes. If a fan at a baseball game takes a ball to the beak or a broken bat to the chest, the likelihood they would not sue is remote. Fans at baseball and hockey games do not waive their right to sue for something like that as far as I know, but I am just guessing. The point of all this is it would seem that there would be more protection to maybe the owners of a professional sports venue from lawsuits of this nature. Same for parks and recreation divisions. I am in complete agreement with you that if you show up for an event, you should be paying attention and be as prepared as possible for the errant piece of sporting equipment heading your way.
Everybody just to fast to sue, need to use common sense while you walking around on disc golf course alot of people are clueless of they surroundings or just don't care about anybody else enjoying park. Like people parking on course so they don't have to walk 50 more feet to park in parking lot
As someone who has designed courses on business owned properties and in a County and a City Park, the idea that someone should be able to successfully sue anyone other than the person throwing the disc is absurd. It’s every park goer or patron’s responsibility to do their own due diligence and learn about the properties they are visiting and know their surroundings. Especially if there is a park map and disc golf course map that exists online. It’s unreasonable to have course maps on multiple kiosks at every entrance of a park and to have hundreds of “watch for flying discs” signs in the ground every 50’ along every walkway. It’s everyone’s individual responsibility to research the premises they are visiting and figure out when they are in areas of potential danger. Only wonton endangerment by an individual (the player) should be legally in question at all.
The question of immunity from a lawsuit is not a factor if the person suing names the city as a defendant. If there is a law on the books meant to help the city dodge responsibility, then the judge will decide if it's a just law or not and rule accordingly which could send the ruling to a higher court. The written law is not a final word on the matter and can legally be challenged in a lawsuit at anytime, although any higher court requested to hear the case and asked to rule on the first courts decision will most likely act as an arbitrator and decide on any awards to be made to either party.
I think you should always be able to sue due to negligence. However, assumed risk is something else. I've been playing disc golf for 20 years. I have seen some courses in public parks that were really risky. I don't believe for a second that these government agencies should not be held accountable.
We have all encountered other park goers sometime while playing disc golf im sure. The problem i have is that some people are not aware at all what disc golf is is one thing but we have very often come across others that know whats going in abd dont give a crap because its all about them being entitlied and dont care
wow, this is a tough one. I feel like the woman should get something. She wasn't there for disc golf and may have had no clue it was a risk. It was no fault of her own. I've seen players throw near people and never yell four. Thankfully, they weren't hit. i was hit by one and no one yelled four. Thankfully I just got a bruise on my shin. We do have signs that read, if you hit a car you are responsible. I don't know if that comes into play here.
Agree. Getting hit and having a slight "ding" on your arm or leg is one thing. Losing vision on a public course? Def a grey area. Hell, many times I've thrown a disc and froze as I'm watching it kind of get close to a group. Luckily a player in my group got my back and yells out the FORE. But even in that case, that's common acknowledgement of (disc) golfers, not people just walking in a park.
All the parks i play the course is no where near the other activities. Only 1 place has a problem when baseball is going becauee the parents walk through holes and watch in areas where they shouldnt be located. Theres also mandos to prevent discs from entering areas where people might be.
Polliwog should never have happened. I played 2 total holes there when it opened and left to go back to Oak grove, it was a complete disaster waiting to happen from moment one.
I think in very select cases, immunity is warranted. The problem is that it shouldn't only be for government, and the courts should apply it propperly. It should be for any civil matter where the principals of the law have not been established. It should not require the same facts in the case, but the same legal principals. If a police officer used telepathy to unlawfully obtain random peoples identities, it would be unconstitutional. The courts would almost certainly grant qualified immunity in this case though, because the facts are so dissimilar to any precedent. This despite it being clearly established in principal, that an officer can't force his will on you to make you ID, for no legitimate reason.
Polliwog was my and my friends favorite local course, despite its issues. We missed that course for a long time, because shocker, in Los Angeles it’s a LONG fucking way to the next course…and never knew what happened for years. The next closest courses were 45min to an hour+ away, and the trend was being sold to developers who would just close the courses and build mansions on them. Shame on the city for not closing the course during the event, they did that all the time for major scheduled events like Shakespeare in the park and the like. Shame on the disc golfer who threw the disc because no doubt there was serious negligence for the safety of others demonstrated by throwing at people, both are equally stupid. You show up at that course and if it’s a packed day at the park, you either make your peace with the dog walkers, pedestrians and whatever and know you’re going to wait and be giving people a heads up…or you don’t play and go somewhere else. Yes it was a mixed use park, yes it often had people walking through lines, but if you went at a time when foot traffic was lower, it was no problem to play rounds. My friends and I usually played after work Friday nights or weekends mid day and yea there people, but no one we couldn’t wait for or give a heads up to. It was also mostly a pitch n putt 9-hole course, so there were very few shots requiring any real distance, the couple that did were nowhere near people. It was a terrible demonstration of consideration and conscientiousness of disc golfers in my opinion. The lady of course had every right to be litigious, I’m sad that’s the way it went. There was no reason to take the whole course away for one fucking idiot making one big mistake, but it always is isn’t it? One giant douche who ruins everything for everyone…
@@MrJSpicoli I don't but the whole point of being aware and conscientious in when you throw is knowing you can always fluff one regardless of skill level. It doesn't matter if he fluffed it or what. This is the course where I learned to play disc golf so we were always thinking we could hit people if we threw anywhere near someone, so we'd give a heads up or wait. But given how this was during an event with likely more than average people at the park at the time, the reasonable response was go somewhere else or come back later. This isn't an uncommon thing at my current local park either, where the schools' track meets run around the park through almost every single hole on friday nights. The reasonable response is not to try to play vs forcing the issue and throwing at people.
There’s a lot of courses being installed that are poorly designed. It’s about the companies that make the baskets selling them and making money. They don’t care about the long term, How many baskets are made in china? Not gateway
This is really a shitty situation. From her point of view she doesn't have 200k to pay her medical bills plus the money she lost from being out of work. And this is in no fault of her own. The guy who threw the disc is to blame but he likely doesn't have 200k+ to pay these bills either so what is she to do? The real issue is our lack of universal health care in this country. We all suffer because we don't have this coverage like other countries do
Disc golf courses should never be in busy parks where there is no room to freely play the holes period. I believe the city should be sued and was negligent in the design and installation of the course, putting peoples health and lives at risk.
Do you realize more than half the public courses in America would not exist by your logic? More than half the public courses I've played had at least one hole (most had multiple) that required disc golfers to use discretion as the course interacted with other park users.
One of my favorite disc golf channels.
More than half the public courses I have played had other park users interacting with the course design in some fashion. In fact, I'd say it is probably closer to 4 in 5 public courses have other park users that can potentially be struck at some point if the player is not exercising caution when they throw. Either we learn to exist together or we start losing courses when governments rip them out.
The issue isn't that it is mixed use, it is the year of volume of people. The courses I play, all but one is mixed use, but I would say it is rare that I encounter more than two or three people if that during an entire round, so it is very easy to avoid. But this is just like very bad plan from the start. Part of this is just speculation, but I seriously doubt Innova had any idea just how much pedestrian traffic this had, and the government entities approving it would not have known the dangers of errant shots. They would have been looking at the intended fairways and displayed, so this was in my opinion, an irresponsible course designer, and rather than waiting until I could find a good, safe location, they put one in, which resulted in an innocent person being blind in one eye for the rest of their life. And the thing is, even though the player didn't get sued, it's got to be hard on the conscience knowing that your throw not only caused someone to go half-blind, but to get the course shut down, and it's not their fault, it's bad course design, but it's still going to be on their mind.
start paying to play like real golf and there will be tons of private courses
@@clintsawyer7702 all for a 9 hole course. i fucking hate 9 hole courses
@@clintsawyer7702 Without knowing the course and without knowing the specific facts of the case, I don't know how much can be blamed on the player. If the woman was on the fairway and hiding under a tree where the thrower's view of her was obstructed by the tree, they would have never known. Personally I have almost accidentally hit people twice, ironically both dog walkers who were walking middle fairway of a blind curve on a wooded course...they weren't when I looked before throwing.
@@will.green. I would love more private courses, but don't think the revenue is there yet... And disc golf etiquette dang sure ain't there yet, either. If I'm paying to play, I don't want to deal with the party of six who refuse to let you play through or the sprinter throwing as fast as possible behind you but doesn't want to play through.
If there are signs up clearly stating "danger, flying discs" then its on the lady. Otherwise its on the city. Only problem with that is you can say goodbye to city disc golf courses if there's a chance of litigation. The city should have shut down the course during the special event.
if the disc golf hole was near the xc spectators, its on the city whether there was a sign or not. if it was just some idiot throwing in a random spot then its on the golfer
@@will.green. I can definitely get behind that.
Polliwog had signs but most of the people that attended the park, signs or not, had no idea there was disc golf there. It’s a park the had a kids playground, random picnickers, dog walkers, an amphitheater, pot smokers…all kinds…It was 100% on the idiot who threw at people and didn’t think about the consequences. I played there a ton and never hit anyone.
If there were to be no immunity for municipalities then why in the world would they build out any kind of park or trail or anything that included any kind of risk. You should not be able to sue because jimmy fell off the monkey bars, unless they were not properly maintained. That's why park courses should be clearly marked and possibly sectioned off. The number of times some kid has come running from behind a tree from the soccer fields through the fairway or the number of early fall photo shoots in freshly cut fairways is crazy.
that pollywog park course was such a terrible idea, how did so many people pass that along the line without never stopping to ask if it was even a good idea
Probably the perspective of people that don't know the sport. Ok so disc golf is played with what? oh it's essentially a frisbee? What possible damage could that do?
It was a pitch n putt…if you don’t have the basic intelligence to know not to throw directly at people when the park is crowded, then we should shut down all disc golf courses at mixed use parks right? One idiot ruined it for everyone. I played there a lot.
The case with the grandmother seems interesting in that anyone could claim that they were NOT participating in recreational activity, even though recreational activity is certainly why they are there. They may not be actively participating, but if they are watching someone who is, then a lawsuit seems almost inevitable. Does this mean that anyone in the gallery at a PDGA/DGPT event could file a suit should they get hit with a disc?
Except she wasn't injured by a stray ball kicked by someone in the recreational league she was watching while sitting in the bleachers, she was leaving the park. There was no recreation, or enjoyment of recreation, when the incident occurred.
In your PDGA/DGPT example, I would side with Disc Golf dot Laws closing personal opinion. Whether playing, or there to enjoy, you accept some amount of risk. A fan at a baseball game or hockey game does just the same. But that's in stark contrast to the gentleman walking outside the ballpark who is struck in the head by a home run. I know nowadays many disc golf parks "close" for large competitions, but local C tiers rarely do. So a person walking on the trails in a park struck in the head by a stray disc to me falls under the same category as the home run. There was no participation in the event, nor expectation of risk or danger regarding head trauma during a walk. So I'd say the case of Pollwag Park was settled well with the $3M agreement.
@@FutureEngineer92 I went back to 5:31 to re-listen to that section. He said, "because the grandmother was not using the park for her own recreational purposes...". She was there watching her grandkids who WERE using it for their own recreational purposes. How does this differ from a person in the gallery, following the tour? They are NOT using the park for their own recreational purposes. They are just walking along watching others who ARE using it for their own recreational purposes.
If a fan at a baseball game takes a ball to the beak or a broken bat to the chest, the likelihood they would not sue is remote. Fans at baseball and hockey games do not waive their right to sue for something like that as far as I know, but I am just guessing. The point of all this is it would seem that there would be more protection to maybe the owners of a professional sports venue from lawsuits of this nature. Same for parks and recreation divisions.
I am in complete agreement with you that if you show up for an event, you should be paying attention and be as prepared as possible for the errant piece of sporting equipment heading your way.
Everybody just to fast to sue, need to use common sense while you walking around on disc golf course alot of people are clueless of they surroundings or just don't care about anybody else enjoying park. Like people parking on course so they don't have to walk 50 more feet to park in parking lot
Do you think course designers should carry liability insurance? Or is it more likely they will be sued if they have insurance?
As someone who has designed courses on business owned properties and in a County and a City Park, the idea that someone should be able to successfully sue anyone other than the person throwing the disc is absurd.
It’s every park goer or patron’s responsibility to do their own due diligence and learn about the properties they are visiting and know their surroundings. Especially if there is a park map and disc golf course map that exists online. It’s unreasonable to have course maps on multiple kiosks at every entrance of a park and to have hundreds of “watch for flying discs” signs in the ground every 50’ along every walkway.
It’s everyone’s individual responsibility to research the premises they are visiting and figure out when they are in areas of potential danger.
Only wonton endangerment by an individual (the player) should be legally in question at all.
The question of immunity from a lawsuit is not a factor if the person suing names the city as a defendant. If there is a law on the books meant to help the city dodge responsibility, then the judge will decide if it's a just law or not and rule accordingly which could send the ruling to a higher court. The written law is not a final word on the matter and can legally be challenged in a lawsuit at anytime, although any higher court requested to hear the case and asked to rule on the first courts decision will most likely act as an arbitrator and decide on any awards to be made to either party.
I think you should always be able to sue due to negligence. However, assumed risk is something else. I've been playing disc golf for 20 years. I have seen some courses in public parks that were really risky. I don't believe for a second that these government agencies should not be held accountable.
We have all encountered other park goers sometime while playing disc golf im sure. The problem i have is that some people are not aware at all what disc golf is is one thing but we have very often come across others that know whats going in abd dont give a crap because its all about them being entitlied and dont care
I wonder if the player who threw the disc would have been sued if he/she had a $5m umbrella policy.
wow, this is a tough one. I feel like the woman should get something. She wasn't there for disc golf and may have had no clue it was a risk. It was no fault of her own. I've seen players throw near people and never yell four. Thankfully, they weren't hit. i was hit by one and no one yelled four. Thankfully I just got a bruise on my shin. We do have signs that read, if you hit a car you are responsible. I don't know if that comes into play here.
Agree. Getting hit and having a slight "ding" on your arm or leg is one thing. Losing vision on a public course? Def a grey area. Hell, many times I've thrown a disc and froze as I'm watching it kind of get close to a group. Luckily a player in my group got my back and yells out the FORE. But even in that case, that's common acknowledgement of (disc) golfers, not people just walking in a park.
maybe they yelled fore ?
every thing in life as an inherent risk, people need to less sue happy
All the parks i play the course is no where near the other activities. Only 1 place has a problem when baseball is going becauee the parents walk through holes and watch in areas where they shouldnt be located. Theres also mandos to prevent discs from entering areas where people might be.
On a side note is mvp axiom streamline discs manufactured in china?
Why don’t they say made in USA
Polliwog should never have happened. I played 2 total holes there when it opened and left to go back to Oak grove, it was a complete disaster waiting to happen from moment one.
I think in very select cases, immunity is warranted. The problem is that it shouldn't only be for government, and the courts should apply it propperly. It should be for any civil matter where the principals of the law have not been established. It should not require the same facts in the case, but the same legal principals. If a police officer used telepathy to unlawfully obtain random peoples identities, it would be unconstitutional. The courts would almost certainly grant qualified immunity in this case though, because the facts are so dissimilar to any precedent. This despite it being clearly established in principal, that an officer can't force his will on you to make you ID, for no legitimate reason.
Polliwog was my and my friends favorite local course, despite its issues. We missed that course for a long time, because shocker, in Los Angeles it’s a LONG fucking way to the next course…and never knew what happened for years. The next closest courses were 45min to an hour+ away, and the trend was being sold to developers who would just close the courses and build mansions on them. Shame on the city for not closing the course during the event, they did that all the time for major scheduled events like Shakespeare in the park and the like. Shame on the disc golfer who threw the disc because no doubt there was serious negligence for the safety of others demonstrated by throwing at people, both are equally stupid. You show up at that course and if it’s a packed day at the park, you either make your peace with the dog walkers, pedestrians and whatever and know you’re going to wait and be giving people a heads up…or you don’t play and go somewhere else. Yes it was a mixed use park, yes it often had people walking through lines, but if you went at a time when foot traffic was lower, it was no problem to play rounds. My friends and I usually played after work Friday nights or weekends mid day and yea there people, but no one we couldn’t wait for or give a heads up to. It was also mostly a pitch n putt 9-hole course, so there were very few shots requiring any real distance, the couple that did were nowhere near people. It was a terrible demonstration of consideration and conscientiousness of disc golfers in my opinion. The lady of course had every right to be litigious, I’m sad that’s the way it went. There was no reason to take the whole course away for one fucking idiot making one big mistake, but it always is isn’t it? One giant douche who ruins everything for everyone…
How do you know he didn't fluff one?
@@MrJSpicoli I don't but the whole point of being aware and conscientious in when you throw is knowing you can always fluff one regardless of skill level. It doesn't matter if he fluffed it or what. This is the course where I learned to play disc golf so we were always thinking we could hit people if we threw anywhere near someone, so we'd give a heads up or wait. But given how this was during an event with likely more than average people at the park at the time, the reasonable response was go somewhere else or come back later.
This isn't an uncommon thing at my current local park either, where the schools' track meets run around the park through almost every single hole on friday nights. The reasonable response is not to try to play vs forcing the issue and throwing at people.
Quick aside. American capitalism has become who can hire the best lawyers
I have to tell hikers quite often that they are walking where we throw and it's dangerous if you get hit. Most are to stupid or stubborn to care.
They think a disc is like a nerf ball and won't hurt.
Disc golf tournaments do not belong in parks mixed in with
the boomers randomly walking through the park
There’s a lot of courses being installed that are poorly designed. It’s about the companies that make the baskets selling them and making money. They don’t care about the long term,
How many baskets are made in china?
Not gateway
This is really a shitty situation. From her point of view she doesn't have 200k to pay her medical bills plus the money she lost from being out of work. And this is in no fault of her own. The guy who threw the disc is to blame but he likely doesn't have 200k+ to pay these bills either so what is she to do? The real issue is our lack of universal health care in this country. We all suffer because we don't have this coverage like other countries do
Disc golf courses should never be in busy parks where there is no room to freely play the holes period. I believe the city should be sued and was negligent in the design and installation of the course, putting peoples health and lives at risk.
Do you realize more than half the public courses in America would not exist by your logic? More than half the public courses I've played had at least one hole (most had multiple) that required disc golfers to use discretion as the course interacted with other park users.
the govt doesnt need immunity. they always find themselves innocent anyways
We need tort reform
Dave dunipace designed courses are terrible. Just saying