The fight that divided the Monster Hunter community
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 ม.ค. 2024
- Alatreon is a polarizing hunt that seemingly divided the community. Does this take away from the feel of the game or was this exactly what the playerbase needed? Lets dive in further.
As always please watch untill the end to hear my concluding opinion on Alatreon and feel free to leave yours in the comment section! - เกม
Thank you to everyone for this crazy influx of comments adding to the conversation, I hope to continue making these sort of video essays on a variety of games so please subscribe and stick around 👏
Edit - If you enjoyed this video I also have a similar style video on Fatalis coming out tomorrow (Saturday 4th Feb) so keep an eye out!
I am happy to see smaller Monster Hunter youtube channels popping up in my feed.
You know, you're actually one of the few new/small MH TH-camrs that don't sound like they have not the slightest idea about the game and what they're doing (not implying that the larger ones would fare any better xd), and you're also the first one I shall subscribe to in, like, forever. Not that my subscription would mean anything on its own, just saying. Keep up the good work.
@@Raisera Thank you mate, it's much appreciated!
I think you have absorbed the spirit of MH!
It's not the defeat, it's how you adapt to the hunt that is important. So hunting is like a puzzle that you need to solve. Therein lies the fun!
Alatreon is one of the FAIREST bosses i've faced in years or gaming life in general.. This Boss feels like a boss puts you in the arena and lets you know who the fukk you're messing with.. unlike any other boss where you come fully ready and prepared to fukk up a boss lol. Here you can't take ur breaks like with Malenia or Sekiro bosses you have to be calculated and evasive that's asking a lot and That's basically Alatreon in a nutshell. You are dealing with a freaking Elemental Dragon anything less than this Alatreon is a joke.
I feel like a big problem with Alatreon and similarly Fatalis is that you only need to be MR 24 to unlock them, whereas before they appeared monsters like Silverlos and Goldian were locked at MR 70, Ruiner and tempered elders at MR 100 etc, and these are noticably way easier than the black dragons. You were also at a point where you farmed Safi armour and Kulve weapons for the best elemental sets. It feels as if Alatreon was meant to be fought with that gear and anything less would be making your life too hard. So new players probably wouldn't really get that and just go in whatever they have and get stomped. They should have locked them behind MR 100 or something so it would at least hint to players that these are true endgame bosses and they are actually difficult, and that you need to continue working your way through getting better gear to have a decent chance
That is exactly it, coming in as a new player AFTER everything had already released is very overwhelming where as regular active players would have grinded to the pinnacle of power prior to these respective updates. MH Rise for me was such a different experience having grinded every title update on release and naturally progressing in that sense
Yes, the balancing was definitely off. But the main reason they did that is because they didn't want new players that were drawn in by the updates to see that they can't even access the new content that was promoted without getting through dozens of hours of postgame grinding first.
@@plus-delta4477i think thats good
You see the players getting humbled and getting the drive to improve their gear, performance and understanding the monsters
I'm MR 154, beat both Alatreon and Fatalis and the fight is still garbage.
1. You are not allowed to use your favorite weapon if you happen to be a heavy bowgun or slow melee player. Capcom attempted to fix elemental, but they didn't. Slow weapons will never do enough Elemental damage.
2. The elemental mechanic itself is flawed, due to the way Alatreon shifts. You always start in Fire or Ice, then go to dragon and if breaking a horn, prevent a shift to ice or fire and go back to what he started as. That means Water and Thunder are worthless and you are only really ever using the same element over and over again (so depending on the form, either fire or ice are useless for the whole fight too).
3. The Assignment is harder than the quest, because you ALWAYS start in the arena right in front of him. You have 0 time to eat, drink your buff potions and barely enough to put on a mantle for eating a roar.
4. Alatreon has a garbage weakzone on the head for guns and bows. That means you are stuck shooting the legs. Guess what you need to target to avoid being wiped?
@TheTexasDice 1. Did alatreon Solo with greatsword and gunlance he isn't that hard tbh
2. I did runs with my friends with water, thunder (and of there is s third person dragon) it does actually work better because alatreon has 1-2 stars each no matter the Element
3. No offense but skill issue or get roar immunity (idk what the name is)
4. Hoho, trust me, shooting his head with Bow is the MOST fun you do if you have K.O. dmg too
It's my opinion tho don't get offended. But brother you have to try it at least more often and experiment. But I do understand why people say take Fire/Ice or Dragon entirely because you always want 100% dmg output when he is in each form
I still see people bring blast weapons into the hunt to this day when i check SOS and i like to think those are the same people who leave the negative reviews
Saw people trying with defender weapons...
Yeah that's probably the case lol it's like that one freind who plays who only ever uses one thing 😂
@@stygian4011😮
Whats wrong with blast weapons? (Sorry, im a new player)
@@jimerick1 they are strong but to reduce Alatreon wipe attack you need fire or ice weapon to make it fall and reduce its wipe attack damage. Blast weapon cant do that. Unless you want to get carted 2 times before winning
Remember kids, reading isn't an armor skill
fr lol
I don't get it.
@@IncognitoActivado He means, you cant suvive just by knowing Alatreons moves! ... Means, If you dont do much damage, Alatreon will Vaporize you with his Ultimate!
@@venar4248 And the gameplay still sucks.
@@IncognitoActivado0/10 bait, at least you tried : )
funnily enough I find Alatreon's moves to be more telegraphed than most monsters
Once you learn him yeah he really is, it's a case of getting a feel for timings and openings IMO
He has the best moveset and hitboxes in the game. Once you get good at fighting him you realize how his hitboxes on his attacks are all pin point accurate. Nothing feels bullshit.
@@chewbacachunks8644 that's exactly how I feel. When I get hit I know it's my fault for over committing
@@chewbacachunks8644 ik, his attack is pinpoint accurate but man Im still mad everytime I got hit with a bodyslam 😂
The fight is not too bad but the the elemental check is cringe
Backseat gaming: at 0:53 Fatalis does the "Clutch Claw Stagger". When a monster is standing there drooling like this, they will drool for like 5 seconds then go back to normal, if you claw onto them, they'll stand there and drool for an additional 5 seconds (in order to give you enough time to do the soften attack). You don't even have to do the soften attack, when you see the Monster do this, just claw onto them and drop off so they will stay stunned longer.
I had no idea this was a thing after 500 hours in the game haha, thanks for the tip!
I haven't played in so long I even forgot this
I was wondering why people in YT videos did this thanks!
C l u t c h C l a w
i disagree with how the mechanics work as a old world player. it seems like a "myway or the highway" which i dont like. but i also see what you mean and i can respect your opinion
Yeah that's kinda the big problem with this fight, I really don't like to be forced into a specific playstyle cause the devs said f* u. That's a problem with world gear progression in general where there's armor and weapon options that are far too good compared to the rest and you are heavily shoehorned in few playstyles.
@@OzmandisMandis I don't really agree with this, I've played Monster hunter since tri back in what? 2012? I have 800 hours in world and i've never felt shoehorned into a build. I guess part of it is mostly playing dual blades which has always been a build varied weapon, but I have 100+ hunts on every weapon at end game. Alatreon is beatable with every weapon, the only contingency is you take Ice - Which most of the elemtnal weapon players have been swapping weapons accordinly to monsters since great jagras purely to be efficient.
@@OfficialYoushii it is beatable with every weapon but it never was the point. A lot of damage of gunlance comes from shelling which are not elemental, the worst offender being the long type where you are basically not even using the lance part. Talking about lance, the regular one also got a big nerf on elemental damage output with iceborne for 0 reason. Yeah sure it is possible but why do I have to work so much harder in order to beat him if I'm playing this weapons ? Certains weapons always have been suboptimal for certain fights, that is bound to happen, but I can't recall it being to this magnitude.
Tbf the real problem is that the elements in this game are simply very badly designed in the first place. They should be an additional percent of your damage, period. The system is way too convulated as it is and is both hard to judge for players and devs. I would have no problem with the fight if the elements made sense in the first place. It was not a problem when no monster requires you to use it because you could simply go unga bunga raw but you can't drop one that sole gimmick revolves around it in a game where easily half of the weapons positively suck at doing elemental damage in the first place. I don't care that it is theoricaly possible to do it, I care only about the fact that my personnal tastes will potentially make the fight way harder too learn for very arbritary reasons that should not exist in the first place. As a gunlance user you should not have to work 5 times as hard as a dual blade user just because of a system that makes little sense.
@@OzmandisMandis I mean adaptability is a large portion of the game, I've often swapped weapon to grind certain monsters using weapons I "thought" I didn't like, arch tempered xenojiva being a prime example where I played pierce shot HBG. Turned out after some very frustrating experience, I actually enjoyed it.
And gunlance is hyper versatile. You can just chain wide sweep combos and short stake combos on alatreon with great success. And lance has GREAT elemental damage output, farming black diablos with ice lance is one of my favourite weapons.
Is it as fast as ice dual blades? Most of the time no. But it's not as rewarding or fun as lance (and I have over 1k hunts on dual blades)
As a greatsword player, the elemental dps check is pain, I know it's technically doable and I've definitely learned his moveset and know the openings to hit him, but it stills feels impossible to hit the elemental threshold, so instead I learned how to time my astera jerky to heal the weakened escaton judgement once I break his horns
As a fellow greatsword main,I felt that pain. Took me 2 days to get my first kill but boy did that victory give me a rush
As a greatsword player, I can kill him in 15 min with out endgame gear. so...practise! my friend
@@sandemanchang7708 Practice,practice and even more practice :D
Oh yeah it's definitely a skill issue from me, haven't played in a while so I'm rusty, I just have to get better at it!
@@myownprod-second We'll be celebrating your victory once it happens!
To me, the issue with Alatreon is two-fold.
Firstly, while I have no problem with gearing towards a specific monster, I even like it, where it gets problematic for me is when it starts to really pidgeonhole you into certain playstyles. There's a difference between there being preferable strategies and the game trying genuinely force you into something.
I'd argue the most glaring example is Gunlance. Playing slow and steady not being viable is universal, but GL specifically
- struggles against a kit that's very hostile towards guarding
- is actively pushed away from using half of its moveset since Shelling barely contributes to the limit
Of course, you can still do it. It *is* possible. But that doesn't mean it's good or even fun. It certainly wasn't for me.
However, the thing that bugs me the most is, admittedly, a bit of an odd one:
Part of what, to me, makes MH so great is how the context clues and behavior of a monster lead you towards what to do, it adds to the immersion. How Escaton Judgement and the horns work feels really arbitrary. The clues you are given are... text messages. This is what makes it fail specifically as a MH fight for me.
Also yeah the fact that the black dragons are MR24 is really weird.
The game forcing you to fight and use all of it's mechanics is the point. Live learn. That is the fun part. Refusing to learn how and when to use the clutch claw or any of the other mechanics will result in loss. Mastering them and then using everything you know to to utterly destroy the target in front of you is the greatest feeling. Specially if the monster is hard to beat.
@@zazoreal5536 There's a stark difference between being forced to learn to use a mechanic and being forced to use a specific playstyle or strategy that is incompatible with the gameplay you find fun.
Clutch Claw, Wallbangs, Mounting etc. are already disruptive, there's a reason many players found Iceborne adding two of these mechanics to be too much and annoying as they actively break the normal flow of a hunt. You're not playing the weapon you like and chose anymore, you stop in your tracks to play a minigame. But that minigame is over quickly.
Escaton Judgement stretches this effect across an entire hunt.
It dictates your choice of weapon to be an elemental one, and your armor to facilitate elemental damage. Depending on the weapon, it also locks you out of specific playstyles at least for parts of the fight.
And if you don't comply, you are either left with brute forcing the quest through faints, or just fail outright.
Other monsters offered you to the opportunity to spec into them to make the fight easier or more comfortable, be it putting in specific skills or even stuff like building new sets with better resistances in the older games when we weren't able to slot those in.
Alatreon asks you to heavily spec into his mechanics to make the fight not miserable. Those are two completely different ballparks.
Of course how drastic this difference is depends on the weapon, Dual Blades, Insect Glaive and such aren't going to have this problem. But some weapons do. Some is more than none. And more than none, in my opinion, is already too many.
I did not feel accomplished when I beat Alatreon. Because I didn't figure out a solution or apply my knowledge and the things at hand. I followed instructions given to me in a textbox, as that was the one and almost only thing they want you to do.
@@zazoreal5536 cool but why was i basically forced off of mu favorite weapom, the only reason i got into the series because of a dumb dps mechanic because gunlance has to play nearly perfectly to stop the judgement
@@zazoreal5536 The elemental mechanics break immersion by showing you how much the developers are FORCING elements to be relevant.
The elitism of much of the long term franchise fanbase declaring that anybody who DOESN'T 100% love Alatreon's fight must suck, only complain because they suck, and should be mocked for sucking (even if they love the rest of the fight and only dislike the elemental mechanics) was the true division of the fanbase.
@@GumshoeClassic damn, Gumshoe is spitting facts, that’s crazy.
Alatreon has the best sound design. He has moves that are identical but have a different follow up that can be identified by the sound he makes. (When he sprays ice or fire on the ground and slams on it).
Neat! If I ever re-fight him I'll have to listen for that.
KT and Alatreon were the two monsters where I completely memorized the fight via sound cues.
They are my favorite MR fights in the game cause of it.
Alatreon is a weird monster
First time you meet him. You'll hate him for sure .
But when you have a proper build and learn his moves properly.
Suddenly, He'll becomes your Favourite Boy.
Let me correct the last sentence for you:
Nothing changes, you still hate him.
@@YAH93 Also true
kekw
@@YAH93 i can't say more than agree with you! 5 times trying beat him with damn teo 3 set and 2 raging brobis 2 set.. lol but i trying grind on silver rathalos but end give up with his damn annoying attack... also s.Rathaols never go other than same place..
@@YAH93 Playing weapons with counters made him extremely fun to fight imo. The dps check turns into a speed run based on how good you are yourself.
@@ItsPu The DPS check was such an unnecesary mechanic. Save that shit for MMO, but not MonHun.
Been playing this series since MH1 with the 3rd Generation *the same gen Alatreon first debuted* being a very important Generation for me as a person. So when I first heard the same Monster that gave me alot of fond memories and challenge was coming back I naturally became excited. Now after fighting Alatreon again it has shown me that a MMO style DPS check that just insta-kills you for failing it really deters from the creature itself in my opinion. when I slew the beast and heard the MHTri quest clear victory theme, something that would get me to tear up back then...I felt nothing here. It felt like I wasn't fighting a legendary creature, but a Gimmick on legs.
Monsters don't Need some random MMO style gimmick to be difficult and I think this is just a artificial way to create difficultly.
*also didn't help his gear was really Mediocre to Underwhelming so there was like no point in actually grinding him so that was just salt in the wound*
I quite agree, it feels too game-y for me. I like the fight over all though.
Yep. The =forced elemental damage mechanic broke immersion for me.
The rest of the fight was fantastic though.
Well his gear is underwhelming yes but the beta legs had really good slots. Also the arms had 3 levels of power prolonger and attack which is very good
I will start off by saying I am somewhat biased as a HBG main. But I think something interesting I noticed with Alatreon is everyone always focuses on elemental DPS check, but not the real reason the fight is bad. The ARENA itself. Alatreon has to have its horns destroyed. The best way to accomplish this (as an HBG and some other weapons) is to run him into a wall with the claw. However on this map you only have a few pillars to run him into. These pillars have awful hit boxes and sometimes he will "miss" by an inch and run in place against the invisible wall. If this happens you are much more likely to lose the fight. The arena also forbids you from far castering once you jump down in the pit. For some reason the far caster birds fear Alatreon but not Fatalis. This does two things. One should you fail to break his horns the only way to swap gear and elements is to die. Secondly as a bowgun player you cannot carry much elemental ammo. Should you run out (you will) you cannot restock without dying. If his fight was in the elder recesses or guiding lands it would be 10 times more fun. It's a shame as is he has a very fun move set to fight. He's flashy and interesting. Telegraphs his moves well but also hits hard. But he just has these infuriating little extra mechanics that even after I killed him 10 times would still come up. He was a monster I was beyond excited to fight from the legends of old veteran MH players I played with and finally meeting him I was beyond disappointed. He was a tough monster, but only hard cause of some dumb mechanics that disproportionately harmed the weapon I mained. Even switching to Sword and Board I still say he's annoying. His armor and gear were also kinda weak and not worth the farm. Really killed my hype in the final days of ice born when my friends were slowly leaving the game. I'm sure that also soured my opinion of him. I loved World but it was a downer to end on. Still love the game tho.
Issue with Alantreon Mechanics in 5th Gen(World) is basically that it' doesn't feel like a Monster Hunter Mechanic.
Most people never played MH past Gens, but basically DPS mechanics that were introduced prior were mainly balanced as "If you met conditions you are rewarded, if you don't the fight becomes harder".
Not the stupid "Either I met the conditions or a get one shotted".
The issue with this design is that basically is the artificial dificulty that is created via a cheap oneshot mechanic, when often Monster Hunter is about Game Knowledge and Patience and Mechanical skill.
That's why correct way to approach mechanics like this is "Every time I fail it gets harder" for Example if you miss, X effect happens for Y time, or X effect is permanently added to the Arena.
A good example of this is Gore Magala DPS check, if you met it's conditions, you would receive a Damage Buff, if you didn't you would receive a Debuff that would remove Red HP and would prevent Regen for a time.
The biggest problem with a dps checks like this is it feels like not every weapon is viable.
I agree with this entirely.
Isn't this fight all about game knowledge patience and mechanical skill?
Lao Shan, Shen Gaoren, Jhen Mohran, Zohran Magdaros, etc. AKA Siege/Defense/Raid battles. These are all DPS checks where you instantly lose if you fail them. Alatreon in MHW is nothing new as a concept.
@@DaShikuXI people didn’t really like those fights much either. Not to mention Zorah Magdaros is pathetically easy. The criticism very much still applies even if it has been present before, now it’s just exemplified in a way that forces the use of elemental weapons for a single fight and then never again.
capcom created an entire game with monster hunter world where any type of elemental damage was overlooked because raw damage weapons were still better in 99% of cases.
Hell they even nerfed elemental damage on some weapons that could use it better (insect glaive).
Yet the only idea they could come up with to make people use elemental builds was to slap in an endgame fight where only elemental weapons would work during it.
It's just shit design in attempt to slap a bandaid on their other poor design choices.
Also safi'jiiva, alatreon, and fatalis are all really samey when you get to the end of the game and they throw variety out of the window in favor of just regular european dragons.
I suppose more thought needs to be applied to how elemental damage scales with different weapons. Naturally due to the damage multiplier of elemental fast attacking weapons like dual blades heavily benefit and you almost always want to be capitilising a monsters elemental weakness where as with a great sword its just negligible. Maybe we will see a change to this in wilds!
@@ZennyHunter ALL the weapons had a hidden modifier to make them even in the Alatreon fight. Greatsword's was something like 1.6 towards the elemental threshold, with other weapons varying, and slower weapons having the bigger bonuses.
The devs had to secretly buff the weaker element weapons to hide how flawed elements were in World.
You forget that with the release of Iceborne they removed the arbitrary cap on elemental damage that World had, which already made elemental weapons fantastic to use. Not to mention the release of Kulve and Safi weapons that had very high elemental damage on them. People were already using elemental builds well before Alatreon. In fact Alatreon was balanced around those elemental builds people already had.
@@ZennyHunter Elemental damage already does this. Different moves on different weapons have different elemental multipliers. TSC on a GS for example has a 1.7x elemental damage AND status damage multiplier. On the other hand most Dual Blade moves have elemental multipliers between 0.4x and 0.7x, with only a few of the combo finishing moves reaching 1.0x.
In other words, DB actually deals less elemental damage per hit than a GS, they just get more hits. Elemental damage output is already tailored on each weapon, and all of them are viable as elemental weapons.
Not to mention the fact that the Alatreon fight has additional multipliers on top of that.
This fight made me appreciate quick sheathe on my lance. I always felt iffy when you'd take chip damage from blocking and not having access to health augment on my MR weapons when fighting this guy. 70 fails on lance vs this, added quick sheathe 3 and beat him in the next 2 tries. I'm getting off of quick sheathe when I get health augments but man that one "useless" ability really saved me from potentially quitting this game.
Sry brother but you have to go full evasion skills and evade extender on lance against this asshole guarding against against him is out of question if you do not want to get element blighted against him
@@shadownight9956Use blight resist 3. You won't ever get dragon blighted that way (nor fire/ice blight). Makes the fight a lot less annoying.
Weirdly enough, I have a deep appreciation to Alatreons mechanics first time I started, its such a scary concept of a monster that is set like a ticking time bomb, and hitting that head increases the timer.
The escathon and astera jerky is only a hassle in multiplayer with new players BUT, I do think that it is a nice touch on the preparing aspect of monster hunter. I really like the idea of depending on items to either simply not die or counter a monster like sonic bombs and diablos
My issues with Alatreon are as follows: 1) The ramming portions of the map are horrendously small and specific compared to virtually every other monster's ability to be rammed. 2) The DPS Element check feels painful to reach because he's incredibly aggressive and has few timings where you can latch on and hit/just hit it - outside of ramming him which is, again, difficult. 3) F A R C A S T E R S. Literally hate how I finally start using a game mechanic only to be denied it.
The fact that they arbitrarily stop you from using farcasters as a game mechanic that every other fight in the game allows just so they can punish you during the learning process is bizarre and ridiculous and is one of the things that permanently soured me on the fight. I've beaten him a few times now but the fact that in only this fight you can't resupply or panic button out is just silly and one of MHW's few moments of arbitrary difficulty.
I love fighting him (over 100 slays, personally), but I won’t deny that I find the Escaton Judgement mechanic flawed. SnS is one of my main weapons, but the requirement to deal high element discourages me from using the weapon’s highest damage combo (Perfect Rush) until I’ve gotten a topple first. Gunlance has it even worse than this since it’s locked out of the “Gun” part of the weapon entirely. Because of this, it’s actually faster for me to just go for pure, raw damage and cart to a single Escaton to activate Fortify. That honestly doesn’t feel like it should be the “optimal” strategy to me.
Additionally, the in-game notes don’t actually specify which parts of Alatreon’s body are weakest to element. You have to rely on external sources to find out that the forearms take the most elemental damage, and should be your primary focus to get the topple.
Wow...Thank you.
I've been making a bee-line for it's head non-stop and was wondering why I couldn't trigger its topple.
@@isaacaustin864 Well, the head is still the 2nd highest elemental weakspot, but yes, you’ll be doing optimal element damage to forearms. Once he swaps to dragon, though, you’ll want to focus on the head to get the horn break.
What annoys me about Escaton judgement is that I've had multiple runs where I've met the elemental dps check, broke both his horns, but somehow haven't killed him yet, so he'll do a third escaton judgement and then leave me with a weapon that does absolutely crap damage because hes now basically immune to the element I'm using. so then I struggle to do damage or meet the elemental dps check, and die to a 4th escaton because game says "screw you".
I have both his armor sets, I've built nearly all of his weapons, and I still dislike they way they implemented his fight. I mostly just fight him because Tri was my first MH game so he has a special place in my heart.
@@zee8590 if you even see third escaton you're being extremely slow, and if you see the 4th you're doing something dramatically wrong.
was hardstuck on alatreon for 6 months until i quit when rise came out. came back to world a week ago and im currently grinding gear upgrades to try again. this video helps keeping me encouraged, thanks!
That's exactly what I did, keep grinding mate and you'll get it done soon enough!
hey man if u have xbox and wanna hunt lmk
If Alatreon was optional and not gatekeeping a large chunk of players from experiencing the Fatalis fight, I think most people would not have a problem with him.
Except the one for the Fatalis fight is dummy easy. You can brute force that one with a bow before he even does his nova.
Its normal Alatreon that people had true issues with. Honestly I just found the bugs with Palicos annoying during the fight.
The real issue is they didn't gate keep Alatreon and Fatalis enough. They should have put it around MR50 at the least. That way players could have good understanding of the game mechanics, their weapons, and gear sets as well as the ability to pilot them well. To find their comfort zones as hunters. MR 24 is too soon for these hunts to be accessible when they were scaled for end game gear and mindset. MR24 players are just unlocking the unique to guiding lands monsters and the Furious Rajang fight. They are not prepared for Alatreon at that point.
Now one complaint I do side with though is that the real Alatreon fight's DPS check is to high, pretty much locking certain weapons out of even attempting to reach it even if they bring the correct element. That I do agree with. Beyond that its on the player themselves if they go in with blast weapons or rarity 10 gear.
Theres definitely reasonable arguements on both sides. But both also have stupid arguments like the toxic git gudders and the never learns whiners wearing defender gear and using a blast weapon.
No way you think not gatekeeping Fatalis is a good idea
You don't have to beat him tho. You just have encounter him and the exitable A-lister spawns for the next special assignment
The Dawn Twilight quest isnt too bad as a gatekeep imo. Alatreon in that quest has way less health than in other quests and in singleplayer or duo you can faint to the first escaton judgement and still continue.
@@francisharkins idky people keep talking like you could actually access those fights at mr24. when i beat shara ishvalda i became 49 instantly. then you have the whole guiding lands to get through before you unlock those fights. im currently mr 58 and still cant access the fights because "you havent unlocked that investigation yet" yes, im taking my time by trying to complete all optional fights as i go but still, i cant imagine you only being mr 24 by the time u beat shara, let alone the path to get to alatreon/fatalis. unless im missing something and you can access these fights earlier?
It's polarizing because it's an MR 24 battle. By that rank players and especially players new to the saga will quite probably not have equipment up to snuff with the powerhouse that Alatreon represents. The DPS check (Escathon Judgment) makes sure that your weapons are of top tier and not just any elemental stick will do.
Here you will see who will always enjoy Monster Hunter casually and who will regularly take on the challenges from there onward and will wear the sickest drip the game will have to offer.
Either way, as a hunter who took him down enough times to make a full armor set and 14 weapons out of its parts, I still think that it's very different from each and every other hunt and I understand if somebody doesn't enjoy the experience.
Another thing about the frustration with Alatreon: it was supposed to be the true final boss. Fatalis was added later as fanservice after people saw it had a 3d model; Alatreon was intended to be THE final challenge when Iceborne was in development. So in other words, the final boss of the game required players to play in a specific way (elemental damage) in a game series that normally lets people play however they want (status, raw crit, etc). I have friends that got really salty about that because they had to go farm for weapons and armor and make entirely new builds when everything else, including Fatalis, could be handled just fine using the builds they already had.
I already had elemental builds, but I went in to Alatreon blind and was using a crit build. Wasn't too happy to hear the Handler chime in with "You need to use elemental damage!" mid-hunt.
i dont think people care about the elemental part i think its that MHW does a bad job at explaining almost EVERYTHING lol
@@petejones6827 that's not a MHW problem
that's a MH problem.
I said this back then and still say it now, that's just people looking for excuses instead of admitting that it was skill issue. People talk about "playing in a specific way" as if your weapon's moveset suddenly changed when you went from raw to elemental. It is the same thing, you look for the spot with the highest hitzone values and you attack. And also, imaging complaining about making a new build in a game where all you do is make builds to fight new things and then make more builds.
@@caoz9375yes it does change a little you have to focus more on the weakpoints for elemental damage to really take effect and 300 raw vs 300 ele is drastically different in damage
I think capcom needs to balance raw and elemental or make it like mhst where the weapon is just element damage
@@caoz9375 im just at the end of the game and id have to say thats only the end game beating iceborne was super easy i just now hit raging brachydios and thats a roadblock for me the only boss i didnt kill first time solo i tried 5 times and gave up yesterday im gonna give it a day or two and try again i tried diff builds and everything but dude he is just a fucking beast this is the first time im wondering if i really just have to memorize his moves perfectly cause i could mess up a few times on other bosses but not him. im sitting here thinking is a better boss design one that doesnt allow for forgiveness and is difficult or one that is tough but allows forgivesness and is fun. id have to say for now atleast raging brachy is not a fun boss
The long of short of alatreons hate was due to the meta at the time. Aswell as just how weapon damage generally broke down. For things that are inclined to elemental damage it's a fine fight. Difficult but doable. But In world weapons like hammers and greatswords sway WAY WAY WAY WAY more towards raw, and just have absolute garbage elemental application. So those players who generally swayed towards weapons that had poor elemental stats it felt like getting the shaft. If those weapons were actually good at applying elemental damage it would have been fine. But due to their poor ability to deal elemental damage, it became quite a steep hurdle to cross. People eventually figured it out and new monsters came about allowing people to shift their priorities to prepare. But at the time?
Imagine going elemental hammer at the start, finding out shit sucks no matter what you do. Switching to raw, getting success, it staying that way for months after learning your lesson to success, and at the very end of the game you encounter a monster that has an elemental damage check when you've learned your weapon just isn't great for that purpose. Some switched weapons, others simply smashed their head into a wall until they found a strategy that worked. It felt like an artificial wall at the time rather than a skill check. If you didn't squeeze as much elemental damage as you could in that timeline, goodbye. It just felt like a slap in the face you know?
The weapons were actually balanced with bonuses for slow weapons so Alatreon is possible with all weapons. The bigger problem is that the elemental mechanic blatantly feels like the DEVELOPERS are fighting you by forcing the elemental weapon use.
So it breaks immersion.
But even worse? The longer term Monster Hunter players on forums declared that ANYTHING that wasn't utter and complete worship of the Alatreon fight (like me not liking the element mechanics, but also loving the rest of the fight) was proof that you sucked, only complained because you're a female of canine persuasion, and complaining was permission for them to mercilessly mock you for sucking or doing anything other than converting to Alatreonism.
Which was REALLY frustrating when they were friendly and helpful for most other monsters until then.
@@hariman7727 I'm actually shocked at how many times I've read ppl in this comment sections mention older MH players being the toxic ones. As somewhat of a MH veteran myself I absolutely hate the dps check on Alatreon and I really dont want to see a dps check ever again in MH. In my experience most people who say stuff like this are people who came into MH with World and the min-maxing mindset most of these people brought with them.
For me MH is a fun hunting party game and I like to see different silly builds even if it's not optimal.
I think Fatalis was perfectly fine tho. No bullshit overly punishing dps check. Just a straight up hard fight with also a tight timer the first few times when you are probably still playing very defensivly and learn his patterns/openings. That was the perfect endgame monster.
Alatreon just forced you into a specific playstyle, made some weapons kinda useless (GL), encouraged min-maxing and the dps check was just too punishing.
@@Maddin3 I agree on the subject of DPS checks, and that Alatreon's was especially punishing.
I beat Alatreon with Greatsword, and it's tricky because you have so little time to get used to the attacks and when to punish/etc.
I'd also rather not see the clutch claw and the wire bug again too, because they both push the game to either revolve around them (clutch claw/wounding parts for better hit zone values), or they speed the game up to where it borders on becoming another Devil May Cry clone.
@@Maddin3 Alatreon really doesn't need you to min max. Crafting a Ice/Fire weapon and putting Ice/Fire Attack 5 on your armor is not quite min-maxing. That's all you ever need to do for this fight.
@@DaShikuXI Yeah I know but any type of dmg check will always encourage it, like I really had a hard time doing it with random people back then and even saw ppl getting kicked for not bringing a perfect build. Dont know how it is today.
Alatreon is definitely a monster I prefer hunting solo because of this but I prefer monster hunter as a party game so it's just bad design for me.
I do enjoy the fight solo tho.
My issue with Alatreon is that its mechanics are not well-explained in game. They’re hinted at by the dialogue that plays throughout the hunt, but never outright confirms anything about the element damage check or the horn break. This makes the monster very frustrating to learn without a guide, because it’s very hard to tell what you’re even supposed to do. This also would’ve been helped by Rise’s hunter’s notes showing individual hitzone values, which would indicate to the player where to attack in order to deal the most elemental damage.
Once you learn this fight’s mechanics, it becomes one of the absolute best in the game. Its attacks are well-telegraphed and very fair. The lightning hitboxes are deceptively forgiving, making maneuvering aggressively around them feel incredibly good. As with most sweeping beam attacks, you can roll through Alatreon’s without evade window. You can even roll the aoe dragon bursts without evade window, which feels awesome and was of great help to me when I did the fight solo on greatsword. The only real gripe I have with this monster past the knowledge gate is the flying. For a monster whose entire hunt revolves around meeting specific damage thresholds in designated periods of time, having it fly around and be immune to flash pod drops while enraged (the state you want to keep it in for most of the hunt) is very lame. Yes, you can force it to land with some smoke bomb cheese, but this is very hard to do in multiplayer and is also not intuitive in the slightest.
That last part is absolutely one of the things that aggravates me about this. Like, you put it on a dps check, but then you regularly make it fly and prevent me from dealing damage to it in a meaningful way. Oh whats that? Hes gone dragon mode and its time to break his horn? Better make him fly for half of that time.
This 100%. Him flying about a lot of the time with no way to bring him down apart from Smoke Bombs is the stupidest part of this fight not the Elemental DPS check.
"it becomes one of the absolute best in the game" bullshit, his charging attacks where he does super fast turn around and veers towards you is some bull.
I'm playing MH through for a third time with another group of my friends. I love the series, have been a fan since Third on the Nintendo DS - After playing the game thrice with 6 people (two groups) of monster hunter virgins. I have realised how bad the game is at explaining ANYTHING at all. Simple things like weapon combos are basically hidden even inside the training post. It doesnt explain thresholds, immunities, its really a game were as a new player... If you don't meta game the shit out of it, the majority of people will get stuck. Which in hindesight isn't a bad thing, but I can see how its frustrating.
@@OfficialYoushii "Which in hindesight isn't a bad thing" yes, it is. if you have to google to understand what the game is saying, thats on the game not the player, i still dont understand affinity and nobody has managed to give straight answer on any and all forums ive looked at.
I've been trying to beat him for the last few days now with the regular Velkhana MR weapons, and I'm even using Dual Blades because they are best for elemental damage and I still struggle to meet the elemental cap sometimes despite playing really aggressively.
I do enjoy the challenge of the fight, but I can't say that I particularly enjoy Alatreon, I hate how it's nearly impossible to clutch claw to him without a mantle because he always, and I mean literally always instantly uses an attack that throws you off and when you try to clutch claw to his head you'll just get knocked off by the lighting that surrounds his horns on every other attack. Also, him spending like 2 minutes in the air during each rotation just cuts the already very short timeframe you have to weaken his Esacaton Judgement even more and using a smoke bomb to make him land doesn't work well either even though it should, ofc you could also clutch claw him out of the air but either he's enraged or you'll just get thrown off repeatedly.
The actual fight, dodging his elemental attacks and trying to break his horns etc, is insanely fun but the things I mentioned prevent him from being one of my favorite fights. So far, I definitely prefer Fatalis.
Use Frostfang Barioths weapon, they do much higher ice damage then Velkhana.
You can also use flash pods if he's not enraged and it'll cause him to instantly land and stay on the ground. If you really have the flexible equipment slot using a Ghille mantle also ensures he lands even if enraged.
It's helped me with my solo runs immensely and keep my hunts of him in 25 minutes or less
getting health auguments and running coalesence and get 'hit ' on purpose to trigger it , ice version is much easier to kill as it has long openings including grapple to the head when he cast downwards, fire version is a bit harder for some weapons that dont have fast attacks.
Insect glavie is very good vs this fight, you can meet the check only with thrust attack and elemental insect ,while your wep has 0 elemental, i think personally is easier with insect glavie then dual blades.
Fatalis is my favorite fight in Monster Hunter World.
I just went in with raging brachy weapon and nergigante/raging mix set and won, with 2 carts but won
Before anything else, I have beaten Alatreon on three different characters, and hunted it enough times on each character to craft full Alatreon armor and an upgraded Alatreon weapon. Then proceeded to fight and kill Fatalis, with each character now having all the Fatalis weapons they can use (I split the 14 weapons among the three characters) as well as both alpha and beta Fatalis sets.
Now onto what I think about the fight:
I fucking hate this fight. I do understand what you said about the thought of making the player prepare for their hunts properly BUT, you already can have that without a dumb elemental DPS check. I mean, going into an AT Velk hunt without Ice resist can possibly spell the difference between being one shot by any ice attacks or being able to survive getting one shot by all ice attacks except it's "ultimate move. Most, if not all, the other monsters already incorporate some proper prep time to be more efficient in the hunt without requiring some elemental DPS check that insta carts you if you fail.
Now, while I think the elemental DPS check is ridiculous, if you could fight Alateron in other locations with better designed maps then I think it would be an okay-ish fight. But the map just sucks. It's forcing players into a playstyle that they may not be comfortable with, which goes against Monster Hunter having so many options on play style that caters to players' preferences. I personally enjoy things such as wall bangs and utilizing things like falling boulders or sending monsters off ledges, but there's none of that in the Alatreon fight. Yes, there are walls you can finch it towards but those are barely walls because their hitbox is broken. I've seen so many flinch shots that missed where in other maps they would have definitely hit.
And people are saying "oh, but the Alatreon fight gets people prepared for the Fatalis fight." No, it doesn't. The Alatreon and Fatalis fights are as different as night and day. Personally, I enjoy the Fatalis fight a whole lot more than the Alatreon fight since I can utilize almost any build I want to play. I would also rather fight and fail Fatalis several times a day than fight Alatreon.
Anyways, that's what I think of this fight. IMO, Alatreon would best be an optional event fight like Behemoth rather than a story fight. I hope that Capcom doesn't do anything similar to it in Wilds because it's definitely one of the least enjoyable fights in the game.
Nice to see someone else here who understands and gets it.
it make sense, to the lore I mean.
He's an unstable elemental dragon, and you keep overflowing him with element so he's down, i think its a neat story to gameplay element.
though i agree that the map needed improvement, or something elemental based we can trigger to help with the fight and not just a background change lol.
@@zakimubarak7862
I did say that if the arena where you fought it was made better then the elemental DPS wouldn't be that much of an issue. I'd still say it's bullshit but at least the fight would be fun if the arena was better made.
I just want a map that has more gameplay options than just run up to monster and unga bunga the elemental DPS check.
And I'm not too convinced about lore reasonings for gameplay mechanics.
I mean Fatalis is weak to fire. A freaking Elder Dragon who's primary element is fire is also weak to it. How do you explain Fatalis being weak to fire while using fire but Alatreon becomes immune to fire while attuned to fire?
@@avery0307 Yes i agree completely on the map, it was godawful. They just gave a small piece of wall and a 5cm ramp to jump for 😂.
As for Fatty weakness to fire, not my theory, but "His habit of lying on defeated hunters causes their molten armor to meld with his scales, and provide a direct channel for fire weapons to damage him via heat conduction. It's pretty much a self-inflicted weakness."
thats why in second phase the chest starts glowing, Fatty mid section hitzone becomes much better.
I totally get your point, I just dont like the dps check, no other monster does that and its weird for me. Its probably skill issue from me, cuz I get hit, try to heal and get hit for more, so I need to heal more with not much time to damage him. As I said, its probably skill issue. But part that I hate the most is when you play with party of four, and he just onehots everybody with this nuke, and its game over, no counterplay. Its my main concern with this enemy, its not forgiving and sometimes unfair. Yes, you could argue that its the point of the game to be bullied by humongous monsters and hunt them (haha, like in the name of game), but I think its a bit unfair. I always get the feeling like aletron is some sort of Final Fantasy boss and you need 100% cooperation with your party (usualy of randoms with 24 MR), unlike other monsters. Its just my personal opinion tho.
Extreme Behemoth also has a DPS check as well. In some ways hes worse than Alatreon if you don't know how to counter Ecliptic Meteor.
I personally think its how the judgement worked. It instantly kill you if you don’t do enough elemental damage and encourages solo play since how the faints work.
Fatalis gives you a chance to redeem yourself when you didn’t break the horns by making it so if you have enough skill you can dodge his one hit fire attacks with alatrieon its oh well you die sucks to suck.
I would have had it so if you fail the element dps check alatreon would enter a full element mode where all attacks inflict all blights and ignore blight resistance and massive attack boost so that way you can play it how you want. You can build for defense to tank the ultimate mode or build for dodge and skill to kill it faster.
Well technically you can do that with EJ too, team darkside outheals full power EJ, granted and tbf no one with randos cant try to do that or have enough friend to do that.
But the fact that its not just plain "instakill" is neat i think
I think in retrospect it's an alright and challenging monster given it's a Black Elder Dragon. But in the early days of its release it was kind of difficult because the requirement of elemental damage wasn't really a thing and just raw damage with blast probably was the go to. They didn't really enforce elements prior to this so most of the player base wasn't conditioned to incorporating them. It really shows as you'll still see new players now jumping in your Alatreon quest with a Raging Brachy weapon LOL. When you're finally done with Alatreon, your elemental build will be set aside and it's back to raw.
The worst part was the elitism from the long term monster hunter fans who took ANY criticism of the Escaton Judgement mechanic as evidence that the critical players both sucked AND hated Alatreon only because they sucked.
Those bastards are why I burned out on monster hunter world for several years and only beat Fatalis recently.
@@hariman7727 I don’t think it was just long term MH fans, but yeah "skill issue" is not a valid argument for not liking a fight.
@@Flubbadon thank you.
as a long term monster hunter player i hated the alatreon fight. and a lot of it is the context of the releases leading up to it. each new monster added gave better weapons than the last, and there hadnt been a good fire or ice monster for a long time before alatreon released. and raging brachydios weapons were the best weapons in the game. This was bad monster hunter design itself, as they made the new and newer monsters objectively better to the normal monsters the game released with, but even the other post iceborne monsters. it led to a power creep issue. The other contextual issue is this fight relied on grinding taroth and safi, events that were not always available 24/7 and rotated in and out of availability, and the schedule for them had periods where neither was available for a couple weeks at a time. which is also bad design, as they created a FOMO situation, and a lot of people DID miss out, and because these quests were so heavily RNG on whether you did get the good gear or not, it created a ton of elitism. I had a friend who within a day was able to get the best elemental version of each weapon he played, while i grinded months of taroth and safi and never got any of the super good elemental weapons. due to bad RNG. And when we struggled with the elemental DPS check, he would talk down to us "get good" despite statistically, he was the worst hunter among us, and he only passed because he got his god drops and we never did. We did get revenge as out of all of us he was the only one who never beat fatalis because he didnt get good
This isn’t entirely true, as raging brachy had a soft form of this, using water weapons and puddle pods to reset the slime on his body! Most players didn’t try this ofc, but it was a thing that made the fight a hell of a lot easier
The thing I hate most about this fight is that it goes against one of the core elements of Monster Hunter and that is player creativity. As someone who loves status effects e.g., blast, sleep and paralysis, I don't like being forced to use only fire and ice weapons.. That is if you even have good fire and ice weapons for your weapon type.
I do have to give them credit for one thing; both of the Special Assignment Alatreon always start fire, and he was released just after Frostfang Barrioth (who had good ice weapons for everyone).
As a fresh player who only started playing Monster Hunter World a few weeks ago, I'm a bit surprised why most people describe Alatreon as easy.
Yes, the initial fight was doable, but the quest, which sends you straight into the middle of the arena and you basically have to buff yourself here, is quite something. How many times have I have seen me in a stun lock from full life into the cart animation. This beast kept me busy for 8 hours until I finally killed it with my long sword.
In comparison Lunastra, which I found in Guiding Lands, was down on the first try.
I think he's one of those that will kick your ass for a while but once it clicks you really get the hang of it!
I'm glad to hear you stuck it out and took him down, on to fatalis next 👀
@@ZennyHunter In any case. The design and mechanics are outstanding. It reminds me a bit of Shara Ishvalda. The fight wasn't really difficult, but it stays in your head because it's something special.
Well, let's see if that can be increased even further with Fatalis.
Done with Fatalis and AT velkana / Namielle now. Compared to Alatreon there were a joke tbh.
" I'm a bit surprised why most people describe Alatreon as easy. " very few do that, it is actevly described as a brick wall, i hear more about Altrons difficulty than Fatalis.
How did you reach the black dragons so fast, I'm trying to rush to Alatreon and Fatalis but I only have 70hrs in and still in the middle of assigned quests
I think Alatreon is poorly designed because it stifles player expression. I don't think it's malicious, however. Bringing element is whatever. Anyone upset about not being able to run a blast weapon is being silly. That's an hour of work at most to resolve. The issue is that the nature of EJ being tied to element switches which are tied to horn breaks that can only happen twice means some players are forced to drastically change how they play the game in order to deal with it and if they do not enjoy the way they have to play, there is little to no recourse.
Yeah, it’s a tad limiting I think.
Well Monster Hunter was always about preparing your gear for the next monster and its specifics in mind, not the other way around.
@@CheeseOfMastersAnd in most other content you had dozens of ways to prepare.
Monster has poison? Well, you could take an antidote or herbal medicine, or you could take the poison negation skill either through simply taking the amulet, slotting it in with decorations, or farming a whole different monster for its armor. You could take the cleansing tool with you, or even just deal with the punishment by bringing extra healing or taking a life steal augment. Evasion, wide range, I could go on with the ways you could deal with it, most methods working on every weapon. But you get hardly even a fraction of the choices for the dps check. Basically: do X element build, cheese it solo, or fail.
You can just ignore the horn break entirely though. You will cart once to EJ but he'll be back to the original element after 1 cycle.
Fire -> dragon (weaken ej at this point) -> ice -> dragon (die to ej)-> fire
If you play safe you can kill him on the first cycle costing 1 cart, 2 cart if need be but he can be killed by ignoring the horn break mechanic. Play safe- resupply potions after you cart and you can beat him pretty consistently.
Not only that. Some weapons like Greatswords suck at doing elemental damage.
So if youre a GS Main well too bad. Master the fight or just go and learn dual Blades or Longsword.
My issue with Alatreon really just came down to my own stubbornness, namely the fact I hard main Gunlance, specifically wide GL, meaning about 70% of my damage in most hunts comes from shelling, a non-elemental damage type. I did try swapping to a normal GL with a high element and playing more slaplance to SOME success but after probably a week of attempting the fight after it first came out I finally gave in, swapped to an ice Insect Glaive, and killed it in like two tries. And this just didn't feel great, the fight being made so much easier by swapping off my main weapon I had spent 100s of hours mastering just pissed me off, which is sad because I remember when not caring about the elemental damage check actually thinking the fight was really fun.
Gunlance mains unite! I'm right there with you, I did eventually go back and beat him with an ice slaplance (Frostfang) set up but it was really annoying how much of my play style changed.
I respect anyone who loves a challenge, and Alatreon was probably a needed addition for certain players. Unfortunately I wasn’t one of those players and was never able to be him. Not even once.
I’ve been playing Monster Hunter World since the beginning, but I took a break for a little bit and would hop back in mainly to increase my Master Rank a little bit. I’ve been getting heavily into it the last year. Last night I decided to sit down and actually take on the Black Dragon who even alluded me in 3 Ultimate. After about 4 hours one particular run was going well. And then the second Judgment I wasn’t going to survive due to time and the horns already being broken came. I accepted my fate and ran at him and hit him to try and do some damage as a “F you” before dying. I fainted…and then on the right side of my screen the glorious”1 continue remaining” popped up. And I realized that I hadn’t carted at all except for the third Judgment where I wasn’t able to suppress him. Killed him a minute later after 34 minutes. I was so excited. What a great way to end the day.
The only real gripe people have is the elemental DPS check (oh and yeah he should have been MR 50 at least) but I love it even if the elemental attack system needs to be revamped.
Without the nova, Alatreon would basically be just a bigger normal monster that you could run whatever set you run for most monsters.
It was frustrating but man, I love having to actually craft a set/weapon and learn an endgame monster’s moves to beat it. Otherwise, it’s just way too easy.
I hate him. As a GS purist, there just aren't many ways to get enough of an elemental output. I believe it is a bad monster design when it favors some weapons over others with such emphasis
@@frank2453 I feel you on that as a fellow GS user which is why I think the elemental damage system has to be revamped
@@frank2453 Every weapon has a different elemental threshold you need to surpass in order to topple him. It's perfectly doable with every single weapon. GS has plenty of openings to get big damage so it's more of an skill issue.
@@frank2453as a fellow diehard GS main, Frostfang GS without ele investment is fine for fire but for ice your options are a little limited
@@pabloriv7 No, it's more of an "I hate him'" issue. I never said I couldn't kill it, but it's not at all a fun fight when your build and playstyle has to be a certain way. That is just straight bad monster design.
Now I’m not one to constantly go on about "the good old days" very often, and I won’t do that even now. I’ve seen a few people say that this reminds them of the older games and having to build a new set for some monsters, I personally never ran into that issue across my journey from Tri/3U to now. I feel what made Alatreon frustrating for many is that it is the only monster in the game that really says "do this instead" and it being so late game may make people think "why the hell does this single dragon require me to make a whole build dedicated to beating him when none of the other monsters require that?" And that is a feeling I completely understand. Not to mention it being at MR 24.
What I’m saying is that the fight itself I think is quite good, not my favourite but definitely up there. The flaw in it was the lack of expectation the game gave for these kinds of things. If the game was built more around using certain sorts of builds against certain monsters, than this would have fit right in as an extreme version of that. However, that’s not the case, Alatreon just sort of showed up and said "Alright, you’re playing a different game now, have fun!" I really hated it at first, and I’m sure that’s the case for many, and I think the amount you have to put in to a set to beat him isn’t as much as many think, I just picked up a Frostfang weapon and went in, took me a bit but I got there.
End result: Alatreon’s cool and tough and stuff but the game did not properly prepare anyone for a fight like this, and that’s what frustrated people. Also unavoidable instant kills that are literally the entire map are kinda lame in my opinion but that’s just my take. I think it could’ve been done some other way instead of such a game-y mechanic of "oh you weren’t aggressive enough? Die" cause that is sort of annoying for people who might play more passively, I know I did for a while. I like him but I can’t say there aren’t factors that frustrate me.
Just to add because I thought of it, if you’re playing solo, just use Frostfang gear or something, don’t domeither of the sieges. I just soloed Safi the other day and that was so tedious and long.
KT CB absolutely SHRED Alatreon, I went in solo while relatively underprepared and still managed to get 2 topple and a horn break
True. its quite weird how a lot of ppl dont see it. Prior to this everything was pretty much a freedom of choice where the beauty of overcoming a challenge is finding ur own way. Play aggressive, defensively, fast, slow, elemental or raw, any weapon and still come out on top you name it. Suddenly this black dragon tossed this philosophy out of the window. They did better with fatalis albeit suffers the same issues although lesser
You can make something hard without resorting to cheap and very conditional mechanica
@@Ak4set The thing is you can’t actually design difficult monsters whilst still also catering to worse players. Alatreon and fatalis where designed as difficult fights primarily and the easiest method of achieving that is forcing people to contend with the monster on its own terms.
People hate the “dps checks” but truly picture alatreon and fatalis without them. They’d be so much easier because you wouldn’t be forced into contending with the monster as often. The pressure of the timer requires you to learn the monster and play well enough to keep your own dps up. In other words it’s a challenge for better players.
It took a long time before the fist fatalis fell and it took a long time before most of the better players where downing alatreon but that just wouldn’t have happened without the dps checks.
The difficulty is what made them special as well as the only true challenge for the better players who had conquered the majority of the game. Both designed as finale monsters (fatalis was not mean to be added originally hence why alatreon has its own dps checks). To be blunt not everything needs to cater to every player/playstyle. If they did then these monsters would never truly stand out.
@@MrJayza89 It really isnt cause when you dont meet the dps check you dont lose to the monster, you lose to the timer. And you dont really need strict timers to encourage ppl to learn the monster. ppl have already been doing this from the start. you can have difficult fights without using these cheap mechanics. I rather have alatreon having 30+ unique movesets that confuses the player rather than these bullshit timers, Its cheap and lazy. And not being aggressive enough ≠ unskilled. Fatalis was better though 30 min timer left much to be desirable but atleast you have the tools in the arena to help you out
@@MrJayza89 i think you may be missing the point a bit. We’re not complaining about difficulty at all, I am happy getting my ass kicked by monsters for a long time before I get it. The issue with Alatreon is how the difficulty is done, through a damage check. People like us would much rather a fight that has difficulty entirely because of their moveset and actual fight rather than a dps check or tacked on mechanic. Which is why I feel I’ll like Fatalis a lot once I start him up, because he just seems like a really hard fight, could do with the normal timer but that’s a really minor complaint.
So no I don’t think the dps check would be necessary if the fight itself was just more difficult, more punishing instead of the gimmick check that causes the difficulty to actually exist.
Didn’t realize how new this channel was, great job and great video you have a lot of potential
Glad you enjoyed it and thanks for the kind words, more videos on the way!
also the time it came out the most optimal weapon was the brachi weapons with blast. There were so many players who refused to use an elemental weapon back then.
Also I mostly slayed him with just a dragon element, which was more than enough
my only problem with alatreon is that i'm a greatsword main, and the other weapons i like to play are generally slow weapons, i'm not into elemental dmg stuff, i like blast and phys, so basically, this is not i hunt i'm able to do at "normal parameters" for me, thats the most upseting thing.
Then use elemental greatswords, that's how his fight works even in the old gen.
nah slow weapons can reach elemental check easily
Alatreon has lots of openings for slow weapons like greatsword and is easier to hit the elemental threshold with because Alatreon takes more elemental damage from slow weapons like greatsword. Trust me, I’ve beaten it multiple times with greatsword, it’s honestly really easy with it.
Draw Crit gems with Velkhana set and sword, add a frost charm if you can, or a dragon light immunity one(I did it without augments but if you get them good for you). Cleared it at MR 37 myself after looking around for a way to cheese the elemental damage.
Unfortunately it becomes a level 1 draw attack game on his front legs, with your TCS saved for the topple you get on the elements, and wallbangs. Hug his rib cage and focus on being defensive. Astera jerky when he goes for the judgement and just start chugging potions while laughing at him.
Actually hate that I can’t express myself with shoulder bashing and heavy slashes into his attacks. He could have been a much more fun fight if I could have done stuff like that.
ALL weapons have elemental damage buffs, especially slower weapons. The devs secretly hid how much elements suck in World so it's a fair fight for all weapons.
I went with a raging brachy weapon and Shara ishvalda armor that I made after beating those a few times. Took me god knows how many attempts to kill alatreon for the first time (I always do a bunch where I don't really try to hit the monster just watch it to learn what to i-frame and the openings). And after weeks of trying i finally killed it, I remember I felt so fulfilled lol. I think you can kill it with anything that deals decent damage as long as you eat for safeguard and are willing to die to the nova a lot xd.
I've also now since done an elementaless run and managed to get it done (after being obliterated by 2 novas lol), it feels so satisfying having learned the hunt to this extent and I hope to get even better at it!
Raging brachy weapon against Alatreon 💀
I played MHW on release but stopped playing after I beat Kulve. My friends and I recently got back into it with the uprise in player count and reveal of the new game.
Started a new save file as a Lance main, but I think I need to get into different weapon types. I’m currently in iceborne killing Velkhana. I’m only now learning about Monsters like Alatreon because I’ve only played MHW.
Looks to be a fun and challenging fight! Thanks for getting me more excited about completing this challenge! Looking forward to seeing more videos from you. 🤙🏽
I've played on and off since 2020 myself. Got into many weapons but have never started a new save file.
New player haven't fought him yet so maybe my opinion will change but these mechanics don't look fun and it doesn't match the rules of the game so far. The game only incentivized certain optimizations but never forced it like this.
Be sure to check back in once you've beaten him, I'd be really curious to hear your thoughts as a new player! (ps I hope you're enjoying the game so far)
The only thing it changes is your preparation, not really your playstyle too much. I don't quite get how that would detract from the fun. The only complaint here really is that certain things aren't communicated as well as they could be.
Definitely post an update.
They're immersion breaking, those elemental DPS mechanics on Alatreon.
Otherwise, the fight is great once you master it.
@@jakereich2080it depends on what weapon you have, I'm a gunlance mainso my entire playstyle actually changes because I no longer use shelling.
Edit for clarity: yes I have beaten him with gunlance, but I had to construct a set that is useless for any other hunt in the game.
Personally I never even reached Alatreon because I didn't like W+IB at all.
But I empathize a lot with the negative reviews, Alatreon sounds really bad on paper imo.
A game that gives you total freedom for potentially thousands of hours comes at the end and tells you "forget it, either this or cart" is legit egregious.
The Elemental DPS Check is immersion breaking AND requires a lot of time to farm up new BUILDS, because it can start in either fire or ice mode.
@@hariman7727 it make sense, to the lore I mean.
He's an unstable elemental dragon, and you keep overflowing him with element so he's down, i think its a neat story to gameplay element.
@@zakimubarak7862 that doesn't change the meta aspects of Alatreon's fight.
It was obviously designed to make elemental weapons relevant again for one final time.
But it did it in such a blatant way that it showed the developer's hand.
That's always been my problem with it.
@@hariman7727 it doesnt, i never said that, but it made sense to the "immersiveness" of the fight
i've been hunting him a whole lot this days with every weapon, it was such a good monster
So prior to World, Alatreon was an event quest or unlocked after hunting several wyverns. It didn’t have this eschaton judgement mechanic. If it did, it really wasn’t a problem after you got silver sol, gold rathalos, or furious rajang equipment. I also used to go at him with a raw GS and art of unsheathing skillset. The hunt was only 7 minutes long for me after I broke his horns and cut his tail.
It changed for World. It’s really tough at first and with three people not dealing enough damage, you can fail in 7 minutes.
You still needed to break both his horns to make his weapon or smth which was one stupid part I remember.
here is a fun fact, I made the full set armour and the LBG using plunderblade before I actually got my first kill
it was my favourite challenge back in the day. I still love this fight and it was a reason to come back to the game in 2024 :)
I'm a bow main and i haven't tried him yet. MR 65 so i'm gonna level up tot 70 and get the silver rathalos set. I've farmed safi to death, so i have all the elemental bows maxed out. Just bought my mighty bow jewel from the elder melder too. So my endgame built will finally be ready for the really challenging bosses. Looking forward to it 😎
You're approach to the game is what most players should do in my opinion, because you unlock him so early most new players feel the need to fight him ASAP and get frustrated as a result. Let me know when you take him down mate!
Quick tipp for the build Do the kulve taroth Event quest get All kjarr weapons and lvl them up and use safi 5 Piece way stronger
@@jasonbleibohm8131 I've seen the build! But the kulve event wasn't up for the last 3 weeks. Or is the MR event always up?
@@Ericboy114558 i think its up today for the next two weeks
Safi and kulve change every two eeeks
The problem isn't that he's difficult because he's a challenging monster. The problem is he's difficult because the whole way he's designed is lazy. "Oh, we're being so clever by forcing all these restrictions and time limits on the monster because his actual moveset is crappy and predictable af and a good enough glaive main or dual main could probably cheese him by just leaning into their superior mobility a little harder, but hey did we mention he has a DPS requirement you need to hit or else you die?" Suddenly changing game mechanics. Literally the laziest way to build a challenge.
Not quite to MR yet, but does Judgment bypass the Guts skill? (The one where you can't get one-hit from full HP) or was that skill never added back?
Guts won't even be a factor because escaton judgment is not even a hit in the 1st place. It's DoT.
@@JoelHernandez-tz3vk makes sense.
You’ve earned my sub good sir. Keep up the good videos my dude!
Welcome aboard!
I believe every game needs a boss or enemy somewhere that tests your understanding of the game itself. Not just for the sake of challenge, but to celebrate what the game itself is about. Alatreon is exactly that.
Sure but make it optional, not required to progress and beat the game.
@@masonhalesI don't know, chief. Having a monster that requires you to understand a fundamental element of the game, pun intended, forces a player to focus on something other than going full DPS 'Unga Bunga' like they could on weaker monsters isn't a bad idea at all. This goes doubly so for ENDGAME CONTENT where such basic concepts should have been learned a long time ago. It's fun to have a fight that requires some minor strategizing and decent knowledge of simple game mechanics rather than raw stats for a change. It's like complaining about Chameleos being too hard and refusing to bring antidotes/herbal powders or poison negating gear because you were focusing on pure DPS instead.
I'm assuming Mason simply means the idea of Alatreon as a roadblock, and the fact that he can't possibly be beaten without knowing how he operates. In that case, it's good that Alatreon is post-game. 'Cause the game is, by all intents and purposes, beaten before the hunter hears about Alatreon.
But on the subject of understanding a game's system as part of the experience, the best I can say is to know what the game is about before you get into it, and set your expectations accordingly.
I think the biggest issue that people who dropped this game has is either a refusal to adapt, or misaligned expectations. Losing, learning, and adapting is all part of Monster Hunter.
@@malikevans634 Once again, this is end game content. Although the low MR requirement strongly suggests otherwise, multiple dozens of hours need to be sunk into Iceborne in order to even reach Alatreon, unless you are speedrunning the game. If people have not grasped the basics of the game by then, perhaps Alatreon needs to be a 'wall' for those players who have not found a reason to improve themselves yet. Every MH player has had there 'wall' monster, usually several. Being able to pass that wall is just part of the MH experience.
@@aaronjohnston2751 Can't agree more, personally. It does make me wonder though why exactly Alatreon and Fatalis are both... MR 24, I think? You'd be forgiven for thinking they'd be the VERY last 2 monsters the hunter encounters. That's how it was with me, anyway.
it's so easy to beat alatreon, here's a tip: invite 3 MR999 players to your lobby
You had the correct mindset. I refused to advance until I had solo'd Alatreon - garbage decos, garbage gear, no aguments, and I still pushed through. If people can solo her with literally nothing optimal, the complaining is clearly people refusing to learn the fight.
I was inspired to do solo after watching your video, the path is painful and tough, but after you put understanding into the movesets, the mechanics, and be precise on the controls, soloing Alatreon is fun, even it might take one faint on me for swapping out the gear for once...
Love the mindset, happy to have helped encourage you!
i think having really hard hunts is the best part of monster hunter. i like to be challenged and it feels so badass to finally take down a legendary black dragon
I will never be a fan of map-wide nukes but I liked the fight from the getgo. On my first run since I wasn't confident I'd be able to break the horns I went in with a thunder weapon and the fight took me a long time. After returning to Alatreon on subsequent hunts, I started getting two elemental downs before the first escathon. Kjarr ice CB op
Kjarr ice cb shred and I love it.
believe it or not people still uses dragon element when fighting alatreon...even today and that really is sad even when i told them to try using either fire or ice element depending on what alatreon element is at the start
So is this fight basically impossible with bowguns because of the elemental dps check? Feel like you wouldn't be able to craft enough ammo.
Its easy thb just cart once or twice for restock
The fight is 100% doable with all weapons, you might be forced to cart once or twice however if you don't have elemental damage (this is why a lot of players werent huge fans of him).
@@ZennyHunterIf youre good enough with HBG, you could kill him before escaton even happened
Its really not that hard to just fucking obliterate him with pierce ammo before he even has a chance to do much
@@ZennyHunterI feel like the response to bowgun being "just cart so you can restock" is really just admitting that the elemental DPS check is poorly calibrated for bowgun.
That you can go in with full Safi set, Spare Shot charm, full ammo and crafting stock, and the crit element bowgun and still not have enough ammo to meet all the checks is a design flaw that incentivizes bowguns to just ignore the elemental damaged entirely and use piercing ammo instead to kill him faster than his first judgement.
I remember when Alatreon released a lot of people were complaining mainly about the fact that they couldnt just run their non elemental sets like they did throughout all of MHW and IB. On top of that the fight actually had a mechanic that you need to play around. Honestly coming from MHTri and MHGU I can tell you that Alatreon is so much nicer to fight in its new state. The fight was originally very long-winded and ultra punishing with very little variation. Overall this fight was an incredible evolution of the monster and blew away my expectations from a monster i always loved.
I'm playing Monster Hunter since over 10 Years now, coming from crappy Hitboxes like Plesioth in Monster Hunter 1, Or failing multiple times fighting a Tigrex Hunt in Freedom Unite.
back in the older generations even Standard Monsters actually felt really hard so preparing for a fight i struggled with, was just normal to me and my friends who also played Monster Hunter, surely back then i was terrible at the game but we just took the time to actually think out a strategy, go grind out a full armor set and a fitting weapon so we can beat a certain monster more likely. For example if you struggle with a Black Diablos in mhw in Master Rank, you could either force fight that thing with your rushed gear, since you havent crafted any Armor since you killed a Pukei Pukei in Master Rank and thought that will do it. Perhaps you gonna kill that Diablos at some Point after 30-40 Minutes and with a Bunch of carts, or you are thinking about what you need to do to make ur Fight easier.
You get some flashbangs, some Sonic Bombs, Some Traps, and enough recources to craft more traps. And then you basically use your Items to make it easier for you. So in my eyes preparing for a fight is key. And i still don't understand players that go hunt a raging Brachy and don't place a single trap or throw a single flashbang and then die after 5 Minuter and wonder why this quest is so hard...
Now i can totally understand the points of people making in the comments about the rank you Unlock Alatreon and Fatalis, and i 100% agree with that.
I personally would say Alatreon should be somewhat MR 120 and Fatalis 150 perhaps even higher. Because unlocking Ruiner Nergigante at 100 is just not comparable. Did that thing solo in under 20 Minutes first try without any carts.
Now Alatreon took me around 10 Tries or so and alot of studying the Monsters moves. Same goes for Fatalis probably around over 20+ trys for that guy. But i feel like its okay that these 2 Monster are a bit harder to kill than the averrage Elder Dragon. Those 2 are basically late late game and i personally like the fact that its not that easy. Because the feeling of killing them the first time after failing dozens of times before hits just different.
Yes the fight is hard and it feels like a little bit of playing Dark Souls for Ala and Fat, but its the 2 hardest Bosses so its fair to me.
What i in generall don't like about what gaming became is, that so many people wan't their hands getting hold threw a whole game. everything needs a tutorial nowadays, can't beat a game with using ur own brain anymore. I think Monster hunter is doing a great job here only giving hints here and there. Thats why i also love most soulslike games so much because they don't have a huge tutorial. They just throw you in this humongus world, and say figure it out.
To summarize:
I would personally like it more if Alatreon and Fatalis are MR 100+ for the sake of everyones Sanity.
being only able to do Elemental Damage is not a problem for me, since im used to addapting to hard Monster since im used to older Monster Hunter Generations.
Carting and Failing a Hard quest a couple of times is part of the game.
The Urgent Quest instantly deploing you on Ala is the most Insane part so being able to spawn in camp would probably be the best change if there would ever be one.
Of all Monsters from World i think Alatreon is the Most Fun one to me, first its really annoying, but after a couple of hunts after you learn the moveset of Ala it becomes on of the most enjoyable intense fights imo.
I agree those augments past mr 100 in the grinding lands are 100% needed if your skill isnt up to par.
not even talking about most people dont have good Decorations aswell. Im at MR 150 now and i still been missing half my 1/4 of my perfect gems@@kevo300
To me, there's two issues: 1: The elemental mechanic of Escaton Judgement makes me feel like I'm fighting the DEVELOPERS, not the monster.
2: The elitism of the long term Monster Hunter fans was ABSOLUTELY ARROGANTLY TOXIC, because ANYTHING other than lickspittle for Alatreon was viewed as evidence that you sucked, were only complaining because you sucked, and that they should mock you for sucking because you sucked you bitch now GIT GOOD YOU SUCKY BITCH.
And I'm downplaying how bad it was back then.
Hell I wouldn't have nearly as much a problem with alatreon if you could farcaster during the regular parts of the fight just disable it for escathon
If you play since gen 1 you should know that you always find the best solution for YOURSELF. For Alatreon you kinda need to follow the solution that capcom wants you to use, which completely negates a big thing that I love about mh and souls games.
First time I played the game, I absolutely hated the fight. All because I misunderstood it(probably due to not being a native english speaker) and thought that you need to break the horns to suppress its power. So I aimed at the head only, with raw damage weaponry. My weapon at the time, was either a HBG or LBG, too. I still beat it, by myself, but it was a miserable experience.
During my second playthrough I took it on with a lance. And this time I actually understood the mechanics of the fight. The only problem was with my numbers. I basically needed better gear to have easier time reaching required breakpoints.
I remember when alatreon came out. Groups were a disaster to fight with. I made the alatreon light bowgun and made a build around it. 2 runs and it was down. It is the only elder I will ALWAYS make solo instead within a group
Alatreon's hunt is less of a "skill check" and more of a "compliance check"
For example if you take a successful Alatreon hunt where the player used an elemental weapon to get elemental topples and had an exact gameplay copy (but with with a non elemental weapon) what do you think would happen? Same gameplay. Same skill. Two different outcomes. An outcome based 100% on if a weapon has element or not. Explain to me how much "skill" it takes to "equip proper weapon because the developers said so" Sounds less like a "skill check" like everyone is implying and more of a "compliance check" because prior to Alatreon forcing players to use Elemental weapons...nobody used them. If Capcom had developed a better system for Elemental weapons then players would want to use them.
In past Monster Hunter games later hunts with Yama Tsukami, Unkanlos, etc. had "unblockable OHKO" attacks. If the player had enough skill then the player could avoid the attack. The player also had in game solutions such as skills like Guard Inc., Guts, etc. in case they lacked the skill to dodge said "unblockable OHKO" Heck you even could use in game items like a farcaster to leave the battlezone if you wanted to. You, the player, had the option on how to deal with the attack. Monster Hunter has ALWAYS been about player freedom. Regardless of if you used optimal armor, suboptimal armor or no armor at all the "equipment" was always second to "player skill."
The Elemental DPS check and unavoidable damage are MMO mechanics that do not belong in Monster Hunter because the core game is not designed around such things like MMOs are. For example in FF14 players have decided classes (Tank, DPS, Healer) and while bosses have unavoidable attacks it's because teams have a dedicated healer who can heal damage done to other players and can even resurrect dead players. The boss mechanics are designed with that in mind. With Iceborne's Alatreon the Elemental DPS Check is poorly simply designed and implemented. 1.) In the entire game you can freely avoid 99% attacks but this attack is unavoidable for...reasons. The "nuke" attack made sense for Behemoth since it was a FF14 monster in the MH world and the fight was designed around, poorly, copying FF14 in MHW but it caused a bad trend for other monsters having a nuke with a "hide behind a rock" mechanic. Alatreon is a victim of that. It would be one thing if players were getting hit due to a lack of skill but you ARE REQUIRED to get hit because the developers say so. In MMOs it's expected because you have classes to deal with that but in MHW unavoidable damage goes against player freedom that was available 99.9% of the game prioir. 2.) In game skills typically used like Guard Inc., Guts, etc. were also "disabled" since the check is "Damge over time" and not a single hit like 99% of the attacks in game 3.) In game healing could not bypass the unavoidable scripted attack even if you had max potions, ancient potions, wide range, life powders, etc. 4.) Farcasters had to be disabled otherwise players could avoid the poorly designed gimmick all together.
Alatreon's fight is treated as this "get good scrub" benchmark for players with any and all criticism being from players who "lack the skill" to complete it. The elemental DPS check was simply poorly designed. MHW was notorious for it's "handholding" of new players (see forced unskippable movement tutorial on Zorah and hiding in grass" the first hour of the game) and even at the end of the game developers decided to hold the hands playerbase hands one last time and "force" players to use elemental weapons because...reasons. They restricted in game player options via skills, items, strategies, etc. because...reasons. Lore wise back in MH3 Alatreon could use all the elements but was unstable so MAYBE the Elemental weapons can push Alatreon into losing control causing an Elemental topple. If thatvwere the case atvleast the in game logic behind the Elemental DPS check would at least make sense...but in MHW Alatreon is said to have "mastery of the elements" so...attacking alatreon with elements that it has mastery of will cause an elemental topple for... reasons. Alatreon's fight for me is a prime example of "artificial difficulty" similar to how games like Destiny have "artificial difficulty" because you don't have a high enough light level (aka gear/equipment) which works for MMOs but not Monster Hunter.
I get why players like the Alatreon hunt. I think the fight is fun but the mechanics are trash in my opinion. I think Rise handled "grandiose super nukes" with Narwa and Amatsu better MHW:I did with Behemoth, Safi, Alatreon, etc.
I love Alatreon, it's was harsh in the beginning since i didn't undestand what was happening and why i was dying to his ultimate, when a friend told me about the elemental mechanic i changed my build and in my second attempt i was able to finish it with a longsword elemental build. Today his fight is still my favorite one of the game, a trully amazing fight!!
Alatreon and fatalis as an update just *chef kiss*
Even though im not even finish the assignment yet but alatreon give you some feeling like you achieving something when you can progress throughout the stage
Cant wait finishing my first alatreon assignment without nerf
Thanks for watching, I have a video on Fatalis coming out tomorrow which you might enjoy :)
I like your content!! hope you do a video on your dual blade builds it is very interesting I am a dual blade main myself but still new to the game just reached the guiding lands and farming but still have no idea what build and dual blades I would use
I did have the idea to do a "100 hours of dualblades" type of video so maybe I'll get round to that at some point!
@@ZennyHunter looking forward to it!!!!
I still have not beat Alatreon or Fatalis to this day. At least Palico was able to get me those Fatalis parts, but yeah I have never been good enough to actually beat them.
That was me for the longest time as well, I beat everything MH Rise had to offer however so I felt the need to provde to myself that I can 100% world too and it's been a great feeling
Here what I've found that I hate about the fight. 1. Tenderizing the monster to do good damage 2. Needing a certain elemental weapon 3. 1 shot mechanics are terrible in any game!
I think Judgment works fine here, it’s a punisher for failing to do enough damage and it’s on a pretty generous timer imo. Heck with a good enough build it’s possible to double (maybe triple but I haven’t seen it) the element cap before the first nuke
why would you get kulve taroth weapon that has critical element built into it AND wear the silver rathalos set on top of it which gives you critical element? Is that not redundant?
The silver rathalos set gives you "True Critical element" which is essentially a stronger version of the regular "Critical Element" skill.
It's a shame that it overwrites the basic critical element from the Kulve Weapons however the Kulve Weapons are still the highest elemental damage weapons (for dual blades anyway!) so they are still reccomended for this fight.
@@ZennyHunter ahhh okay, ty for clarification. I'm guessing they don't stack though right? I thought the main reason the Kjarr weapons were good was the built in critical element so I figured if you're using TRUE critical element, some other weapon would become best
@@rathernotdisclose8064 Yes you are correct they don't stack, from my research it seems that the high elemental damage is so high from kulve weapons that you just use them anyway in this set (for dual blades anyway)
It's usually better mathematically to use the Safi set for the bonus elemental attack and the KT weapon for the crit element.
Dual blades might be an exception though, different weapons get different multipliers from Crit Element and True Crit Element with the faster "elemental" weapons getting better value from the skills for some reason.
@@yeffaros8419 A few other people have commented that the Safi set is better so I think you're correct, but Safi wasn't on rotation at the time of recording so it wasn't possible for me to farm out!
dunno, personally it's the only monster that made me prepare for a hunt - plan what things to carry, weapon to use and carefully observe everything in the fight.
with the ability to re-stock on camp i kinda forgot the minute preparation for a hunt and get used to as long as I can restock I can finish this hunt.
with this being an arena trap, I have to plan everything which kind if reminds me of old MH games.
with the issue of the so called DPS check and alatreon itself, I agree to some here that they barely tell you anything about alatreon or the hints itself, but then again lore wise, alateron has no records, even the build up conversation with the NPC's stated this. they help you mid hunt tho about the mechanics.
same with every monster, once you knew it's attack patterns and mechanics the hunt becomes trivial and sometimes a chore.
The hunter notes, the dialogue added by NPCs, quest descriptions, etc. There are so many things that the game does to give the player the best chance at hunting all its monsters. Also, the game has 14 weapon types. I think it's a beautiful thing where I can learn different weapons to have an advantage against different monsters. Right tool for the right job and all that jazz. A hunter's mindset/
The dps check demand players to be good similar to a 20 minute investigation except it’s on the hardest monsters in the game and it’s forced 20 minutes.
This is a gear check. Not a skill check.
@@JoelHernandez-tz3vkyou just told the world you suck at the game
@@JJLL195 You just told everyone you're part of the toxicity that divided the fanbase by being elitist/arrogant.
@@hariman7727 He's right though. The gear check is nothing more than 1) Do you have an Ice/Fire weapon? 2) Do you have Ice/Fire attack slotted in?
That's it. If you can't manage that by the time you reach Alatreon, that's on you. The fight is 1% gear, 99% skill.
@@DaShikuXI you're completely ignoring the meta context of elemental weapons being about 99% useless for the majority of the game, especially for slower weapons.
On top of that, this is the only fight that has the single absolute developer made method of beating it of: "use elemental weapons".
So it's not simply a when you actually look at the game, instead of isolating it.
Which is why I say that it breaks immersion, because you can feel the hand of the developers for a single elemental weapons to be relevant.
I really appreciate your feedback on this topic. This is the a rare moment in time where I've watched a video and agreed with everything you had to say. If you don't mind, I'm going to give my own perspective on the matter. I think (and hope) you and anyone else reading this will agree..
Monster Hunter World is the first and only MH I've ever played. I remember starting back in 2017 on Xbox One. I felt extremely confident (pre-Iceborne) beating monsters left, right, and center. I sort of lost interest and stopped playing. Years pass by and I decided to give it a try again. This time, I'm on PC and it's 2021. So I have to beat all those vanilla monsters again and start my Iceborne journey.
Iceborne..
I'm beating monsters, hitting a couple of roadblocks, but nothing too crazy. 2022 rolls around and I get access to the Guiding Lands and brother.. what a rude awakening. I took to Twitter to tweet about the gatekeepers at the time. Furious Rajang, Raging Brachydios, Safi Jiiiva, and Alatreon. Every single one of them beat my ass over and over again. Slowly but surely, I kept taking each of them down except Alatreon. My goodness.. Alatreon has been the biggest skill/DPS check I've ever encountered. I'm not one to complain, but man.. Alatreon was something else. I remember audibly saying, "what more can I do?" I had all bases covered (Full Alatreon set with fire/ice max elemental defense and even divine blessing) and I still came up short. I remember being anxious and had plenty of seeds of doubt in my head going into that fight. So mentally, I wasn't locked in either. All that to say..
It's taken me 2 years. 2 years (mostly because I tried, lost, avoided his fight because I wanted better armor, tried again, lost again) of trial and error. But I finally beat him on 1/20/2024. That was one of the most rewarding victories ever. Reminded me of when I beat Nameless King, Isshin Ashina, Malenia, the Crucible Knight Duo, Maliketh, and so many other bosses from other universes. Dude, in my humble opinion, Alatreon tops them all in terms of skill check, DPS check, resilience, grit, and determination needed to overcome that obstacle. Kudos man.. I enjoyed the video and I hope you enjoyed my comment.
For those that have not beat him, take time away from the game, gather knowledge from other hunters, min/max your build to the best of your abilities, watch other TH-cam content creators, and the best of luck to you. It's not easy. It it was easy, would we really make a big deal of the overwhelming sense of achievement you feel when you finally beat him and can join the discussion? No.. probably not. Good luck hunters.
In a game where EVERY monster could be brute forced and not have to consider it's elemental weakness, I'm glad they made Alatreon the way they did. It forced me out of my comfort zone for once and made me try/make new builds in order to beat him.
It took me a long time to figure out why players don't like Alatreon. Or at least why his reputation is so controversial.
For context: I almost exclusively played Switch Axe for my first playthrough, and my playstyle revolved heavily around what that weapon excelled in... DPS and getting good at timing dodges. There is very little a player can do with Switch Axe if they prefer a Slow and Steady play style. As such I also laughed to myself sometimes that hunts had 50 minute timers since I barely ever went past 15 unless I was really struggling to learn a monster.
Eventually I figured it out. Alatreon was already built to my playstyle. Also some people just really suck at listening to the field team leader.
Meanwhile as a new hunter with world, and a Switch Axe ONLY player up to that point, I hated him for exactly that; not letting me just enjoy the hunt in freestyle. I eventually had to swap to charge blade since its way better at applying elemental, just for him, but he had left his stain moving forward. After that I stopped enjoying longer hunts and chased faster and faster timers, more cheese tools and more damage. Some see this as "giting good" and "optimizing" but in all honesty, until I got with some friends again to play in groups, the game lost its magic.
@@Akario3sounds like you discovered Switch Axe wasn’t meant for you. That and it looks like you actually just discovered the magic of Monster Hunter. The joy of using all that is in your disposal to beat a monster, the joy of seeing yourself improve when you realize you’re spending less time on hunts. The joy of needing less “comfort” skills like earplugs because you yourself have become better.
@@Akario3when it become number game, it really lost its magic
Seriously tho I beat the guy solo too, an went in multiplayer to help some other players, and you'd be surprised by how many people DONT listen to the game at all, and also have the other side complain about too many tutorials.
@@shutup1037it was always a numbers game, you just started counting.
I don't like the elemental check but you showed that it is possible even with lower elemental dmg cause you don't have kjarr or safi weapons.
why though ? its a cool mechanic to make the fight unique and different besides its not hard to do 🤷
@@menega-_9291 it was unnecessary, MH is not an MMO we don't need dps checks.
@@corvoyami3192 this argument seems odd to me because literally every hunt is a DPS check because of the timer. Do you not like Fatalis or AT Velkhana either because of the 30 minutes timer?
@@corvoyami3192 i dont think so, its a black dragon so it is necessary to add a little Challenge and make a bit different, otherwise it would be just another fight
@@MoonyDrak It's not the same thing lmfao
This one might be a long comment:
The things I loved about Ala was the allure of attacking his back legs(less damage) versus his front legs(more damage), you could go for more damage but be at risk of dying more vs consistent damage. Also I've been in hunts WITH FRIENDS that would just sit there with Dragonblight on not even trying to cure it. I've been a straight up utility hunter since I got washed by Diablos in early game so I farmed all gears/decos/charms because I wanted to be ready for ANYTHING going forward. The timing when Ala came out when people were super into the RB Meta was interested because it wheeled people back to Elemental.
As mentioned in the video, you have options make that hunt easier but the hardest thing for people to do was subside damage or put their weapons away to heal. Nobody used Clense Boosters/Mantles and Blight Resist came into the general public's mind WAY later.
The only thing I didn't like about the Ala fight is how wonky wall slamming him felt. Also to add, I love how they added an anti head protection mechanic with his lightning flicker. You didn't see anything like that until AT Valkhana, another monster everybody seemed to hate lol
This was actually the first Title Update monster I experienced with everyone else and so I couldn't just SOS for help like I'd done so many times already and even if I did; they'd typically do more harm than good
so I have a special place in my heart for this beast, I consider it to be my first true test as a monster hunter!
I completely disagree. I'm a veteran from 3U and I've always went against the meta builds in each of the games going forward. My problem with this fight is the complete removal of choice and freedom. I'm not a speed runner and have no intentions of playing like that. I'm not an unga bunga type either. I study the moves, patterns, tells, etc and learn to adapt to them, but this fight is not that. This is take your builds and approach, throw them into the bin, then try to replicate god-like play or die. PERIOD!! Not fun and to me completely kills the spirit of MH. Also, you do manage to complete it and then are not guaranteed his rare drop? Not worth it
I understand disagreeing with the execution of the mechanics however is Alatreon not a prime example of a monster you need to study and adapt to? (At least in concept)
I think equipment in the MH franchise plays a big part in hunt preparation, while this might be an extreme example of this I find it a cool concept as a one off hunt.
Again I don't have the history and experience with older entries to the series which may be why I'm coming from a different perspective
@@ZennyHunter you were basicly forced between two armor sets for Alatreon (and Silver Armor leaves no room for customizability).
Some weapons, despite the elemental damage changes they got for this fight, are at a huge disadvantage compared to other weapons.
Especially great sword and Gun Lance compared to Charge Blade.
The moves of Alatreon itself are well telegraphed and fun to learn (except if it flies...).
But the mechanic is still bs since it limits all freedom.
In no other MH game was I ever so forced to play a certain meta as I was in Iceborne (Raging gear was so much powercreep compared to the stuff from before and base IB, and the forced Elemental Meta for Alatreon).
Yes there were Meta sets in previous games, but I never felt forced to play a specific playstyle and follow the meta.
Only in Iceborne.
And Sunbreak did the exact opposite and fixed the problem.
There is so much customizability, it's so much fun, almost any armor piece of any monster is useful, same for the weapons.
And I never felt forced to play a specific meta or playstyle, not once.
I did what I liked and had fun with.
@@obambagaming1467 I think the main issue as highlighted by yourself is that some weapons are simply superior than others for this mechanic. If all Alatreons dps check values were scaled depending on the hunters weapon I think the fight would feel much better for many players, with that being said I don't know how they could possibly achieve this level of balance so maybe the mechanic is simply flawed.
Thanks for sharing your opinion, I've had a lot of input from people as a result of this video which is great!
@@ZennyHunter they actually did have multipliers for the elemental damage of different weapon types to "balance" them.
First of all, it doesn't help with Gun Lance, so this is out.
I think they actually heavily increased the elemental damage of Great Swords by atleast 1.5 times. While reducing it on some of the elemental weapons like DBs and Bows.
Problem is just, if the damage of an Elemental build great sword with high Element value still consists of like 90-95% raw damage, even with this buff, then it doesn't help in the slightest.
Elemental Dual Blades deal way more elemental damage even tho their elemental output was actually nerfed for this fight (if I remember correctly).
And even if they fixed this problem, Gunlance would still be unusable and you are still forced between using two limiting armor sets.
Also there is the issue that you HAVE to break Alatreons horns to prevent it changing Element.
This is also limiting the players playstyle, since they are forced to focus on one body part.
For (most) monsters you can attack them however you want. You can break any part in any order you want.
Except for Alatreon (and maybe Fatalis a bit as well)
I quit the game. Im new 150 hrs. I made it to the end. Im now faced with the 2 major big boys, alatreon and fatalis... you inspired me to go back and try alatreon again (Its been a week) xD
Keep at it mate and you'll get it done!
I've done it with Greatsword, which is considered one of the hardest weapons to beat Alatreon with.
It's possible, and mostly fun. (I'll never like the elemental damage check on Alatreon, but I'll enjoy the rest of the fight.)
Loved the fight as soon as I figured it out. Extremely engaging
I remember the 1st week me and my team struggle a lot fighting Alatreon, but we didn't hate it. It was a phenomenal experience when you finally killed it.
Alatroen made me quit the game for a solid 6 months before I felt like giving it another shot. It seemed so insurmountable that it wasnt fun compared to the rest of the game before Alatreon where I hadn't had any notable difficulty in beating any of the monsters (max 5 attempts to complete). It was only when I hit the DPS check for the first time and managed to break a horn after an ungodly amount of attempts that I realised it was a pure skill issue. Compared to the other monsters that could generally be brute forced without very specific preparations, this one required a much more strategic approach. I still haven't beaten it, but im getting there, and while the meticulousness of Alatreon drove me insane to begin with, I genuinely welcome the challenge now because I know its doable and its only a matter of getting good or getting smoked.
My original experience was very similar to yours, I only started playing the game not long before his release and so I was still very new to the series and lacked a lot of knowledge. Coming back to it now with hundreds of hours of gameplay was really engaging :)
I recently just beat alatreon after 14 attempts. Once you learn his movesets and find your openings. It does become a really enjoyable fight. Alatreon went from this impossible wall to a fun monster to farm now. You'll get it for sure!
This is what I wish I saw more of tbh. It's "I hated it at first but realized it was entirely on me and then started to enjoy it" instead of "its too hard bad design bad fight terrible game I literally did everything right and still lost waaah" that you see so often from people
Nice to see you grew and improved. Most people you see that complain about it are just not that good and instead of getting better, they whine and complain. Nice to see you realize it’s a pure skill issue and are actually working to better yourself, unlike others in this comment section.
For me, it was the toxicity around Alatreon that made me burn out on World for a long time.
The big problem with this fight for me is Escaton Judgement, since ever since I started playing Monster Hunter in 3U I've been playing it very slow and steady with the Greatsword, so most of my hunts end with 0 carts but they also end in 25-30 minutes mostly.
Escaton Judgement *_forces_* me to play in a way that has never been necessary until this point, and as such I never got any good at it. In general, placing a hard time limit on me is an unenjoyable experience since all I can think about is how much time I have left and I can't focus on playing well due to the stress. Forcing me off my comfort weapon in addition to that simply made me hit the hardest wall I've ever faced in Monster Hunter and I just can't be bothered dealing with everything I don't like about the game condensed into one stupid gimmick.
Same thing happened with Fatalis once the 5 carts for the hunt ended up translating to 5 hits for the most survival focused build I had available.
I feel GS is pretty good dealing with Alatreon and Fatalis, since i just need to hit them one with draw attack and run around, it's not the fastest but pretty safe way
but yeah it's really force you to learn the opening of the monster to be able to beat the timer and optimize your build, I would say don't bother with the timer just focus on the opening
Fatalis tests your use of everything that the game gives you.
Alatreon tests your ability to obey the devs command to use elemental weapons.
I'll never forget the first time I beat him.
I was so mad that I carted the 3rd time when there was already a skull mark on the map but thankfully the food I ate after my 2nd cart just happened to give me felyne insurance. I went back into the fight incredibly nervous and then he died after just 3 sword swings lol. I've never been more grateful to get felyne insurance in my entire playthrough of MHW.
I gotta be honest I cheesed both this fight, and the Fatalis fight, with an Alatreon switch axe I was able to make from the baby quest, clutch claw, and zero sum discharge spam.
It felt wrong because I hadn't even unlocked Silverlos and Goldian yet.
I loved Alatreon when it first came out. My friends and I are all veterans from the old games from PSP and this was our major comeback and Alatreon kicked our butts off. We started to strategize. Learn. Adapt. It made for a memorable fight and we loved it but when saw the reviews being negative because people couldn't beat Alatreon, broke our hearts. We had time to farm since we had been playing the game but the new players, who played the game and saw that they can just continue the story and join Alatreon at MR24 was... Upsetting to us. It felt like they didn't deserve to be there yet but the system and game gave them an entry which we thought was absurd. They should at least be MR100. This is a final boss. We loved Alatreon. It didn't deserve the hate. The players who came in with Blast Weapons with the mindset that, they can and want to brute force everything, are in the wrong in our opinion. Even till today, we saw some of them and we tried to help but all they do is complain that they can't beat it because it *forces them to think and strategize* and that, to them, was unforgiveable. Our response, was simply to leave and think that they were not deserving of this boss fight, and much less Fatalis, if they couldn't overcome this one simple hurdle.
Me and my friends are all veteran hunters from the PSP/PS2 days but i have to disagree. Alatreon while a great monster was ruined by the dps check, this is coming from someone who would farm White Fatalis solo for days in MHFU and had to deal with his armor mode.
To me the dps check in the way it was done ( forcing you to use elemental weapons to be effective ) felt cheap and uninspiring. I did not have a problem fighting him ( never was a skill issue ), my group killed him many times both together and solo. We all agreed however we did not enjoy it and after getting what we wanted from him we moved on.
My personal opinion, anything that severely limits your freedom of choice with bullshit parameters ( not being able to switch loadouts between phases like every other monster in the game for example ). It was a mechanic that sounded good on paper but was executed poorly.
Many fellow veterans will disagree with me and that is fine, i know many who share similar thoughts and opinions regarding the World Alatreon fight. Toeach their own, tough shit. To say it's purely a skill issue or a matter of the quest requirement being too low is true but its more than that.
@@awesomesauce5974
I do agree that it could've done better. The idea and concept was fine to us and the execution of this quest wasn't a big deal to us but we do know and understand that it was poorly done for other players and the Elemental Check DPS was reduced in later patch, so it wasn't a big deal. So some players still run with Dragon Elements and still was able to deal with it just fine.
I think it's better to have it similar to Fatalis. Where if you did not break its horns after that elemental burst, which can be avoided with a method like, going behind a rock as well or using the environments to avoid those attacks, and breaking the horns, will reduce the amount of Elemental Damage, and Elemental Chain attacks that would've carted you like Fatalis does with its Supernova State. I think that would've been better in my opinion.
That said, I still standby my points that DPS check wasn't the issue. It does help filter out the newbies as well, as sad and depressing or arrogant as that sounds. I do agree that it felt cheap, but uninspiring, not so much. Tho I understand how that could lead players into feeling that. Overall, agree to disagree.
Dps checks have never been a good thing in mhw as it destroys all creativity and build variety for just build more dmg. Minmaximg dmg should be the player’s choice not the required way to play.
Agreed.
Top comment
i absolutely ADORE this goddamn fight so much. the fight just turns into a dance and all it took was a bit of build changing to be able to fight it which shouldnt be a big deal but people dont wish to ever try anything else so thats most likely another big reason why people hated it.
as much as i suffered to beat alatreon back in the day, It remains as one of my fevorite hunts in the game to this day.
I remember when he 1st came out what makes me and other players mald is that Alatreon takes more DMG from raw. One of my favorite TH-camrs Rurikhan explains this in more detail and the funny part is it's possible to completely ignore the gimmick that Capcom put for Alatreon because all you have to do is have Fortify equipped in your build and not get carted until he does Escaton Judgment.
TBH he HAS to take more damage from raw. if not then he'd need even more special mechanics to balance him out for the different weapon types
ultimately very few weapons in any monster hunter game have the capacity to deal a significant portion of their damage as elemental. often even a few of the weapons that can are only doing ~20% of their actual damage output as elemental damage, and that's the actual "elemental" weapons.
if you made alatreon have bad raw hitboxes, then suddenly he becomes even more difficult for most weapons, and trivial for a select few, unless you add *another* special mechanic to compensate.
EJ is just a sticky ammo restock opportunity.
Alatreon is great. I wish my co-op friend liked dealing with the elemental windows. It was also a great moment for "failed attempts give you pieces of the monster's body to better fight it next time". I made a hunting horn out of his shavings, and it's a magnificent weapon to use when killing him.
On release I beat him but hated him. Ended up killing him a few times with different weapons to see if I enjoyed the fight more, and settled for a dragon LS to farm him (the one that looks like a scythe, maybe it's his weapon I don't remember I just remember it looks cool). I lowered my time to kiil to around 10 minutes, even goign as far as killing him ~10 times in a row (trying to see how far I could go without dying).
I enjoyed a LOT his fight, I think it's close to being the most fair monster of the game (fuck you barioth), EXCEPT for his nuke.
He has big openings, he telegraphs his attacks very well, there are walls for wallbang and the arena is mostly flat with a few little ledges (IIRC) for aerial builds. I remember finding his flight annoying but he's no more than 20~ sec in the air, def not rathalos tier.
I feel like I have enough background experience to give an honest opinion on him (and on a broader scale on iceborne) : This is why I have around 1300 ingame hours and Alatreon made me quit the game.
When iceborne launched, after the honeymoon period I started to really really hate the clutch claw and the awful way it's shoehorned into the game with CClaw stagger and monsters weakpoints with a notable health increase in the extension, meaning you basically had to use the clutch claw to tenderize and wallbang or else your fights would take a solid 5more minutes.
Molding, making a janky mechanic a part of your core gameplay loop is risky, because it can alienate players that don't vibe with it, but it apparently worked because the consensus is that iceborne is fantastic.
I also had a love/hate relationship with MMO monsters like Kulve Taroth or Safi (and on a certain extend some mechanics of base game behemoth), on one hand being a novel and interesting concept, but on execution being a deeply unfun grind.
I remember vividly when the Alatreon update hit, 3 am trying to sleep because I was working at 8 but I just couldn't resist the call of friends and ended up not sleeping and grinding alatreon with them. A really cool experience, one that I remember and love (thanks to my friends), but as soon as I understood that there was a DPS check I was instantly put off :
Why ? Why would you put a DPS check on a monster and lock farecasters usage while you can't even go back to the tent by walking ? Just a big middle finger fuck you to the players that didn't want to engage with a shitty unfun mechanic or are trying to learn the fight, or don't want to use elemental builds ? You want to play gunlance ? Fuck you you're using slaplance even if you don't want to.
Oh you want to play GS ? *chuckles* I hope you already know the fight because otherwise you're going to have a bad time and die in 5min at the first nuke.
They even made the monster invincible during the nuke, even if he has 1 hp you CAN'T kill him... Jesus it's just hard shoved down your throat whever you want it or not. Really putting an instantkill move on a boss is something you do in MMOs for raid boss, not in this type of game, it's dirty, it's a cheap way to force your players to play the way YOU want them to and fuck them otherwise. It couldn't have been "the monster is really resistant to raw damage, has bad hitzones and has huge elemental weaknesses" no it had to be an instakill move ! Undodgeable damage is ALWAYS bad, period.
I didn't come back for fatalis because I was afraid it was gonna be the same bullshit, Alatreon left a really sour taste in my mouth honestly.
I can't wait for the inevitable "git gud" comments...
I haven’t beat him in solo but I agree. This hunt makes you get good. It’s a big wall but it’s an endgame wall that will feel amazing when it’s finally climbed
I do agree with you, however I think that Alatreon can feel like a pretty big slap in the face for greatsword and gunlance players in particular, as they don't really have good options for elemental damage.
The devs secretly buffed slow weapons' elemental damage to make it fair.
What stung was the elitism about NOT 100% loving alatreon from the long term fanboy elitists, which was the true division in the fanbase.
My main issue with Alatreon is breaking the horns to prevent the element switch. Sure, it seems simple enough, but you have to juggle breaking the horns on top of sealing its power, if you break the horns and don't seal its power, then you still die. Same of the opposite, you seal its power but don't break its horns, you might as well be dead. Really, sealing its power and preventing the element switch should have been tied together, instead of separate things that needed to be juggled.
Use a dragon weapon. That way you don't have to worry about the horn. As long as you do good damage you'll always seal it's power.
His horns are made of paper it takes like 2 seconds to break them lol
With endgame gear (full Safi armor, Kjarr Ice IG, all fully augmented) and full knowledge of the mechanics it was challenging but only took a couple hours of attempts, maybe a bit less. With a slower, less mobile weapon and in multiplayer (guaranteed full party wipe in ~25 minutes since the horns are a lie) might be a lot more difficult. And definitely not appropriate for MR24.
I just beat this monster today for the first time.
I struggled with the DPS check and I think the reason people do not like this fight is because the game up until this point has allowed the players to have the choice of wearing a comfortable defensive set and taking longer on a hunt, or stacking attack/affinity/element up and just playing optimally.
Also another note is the requirement to build around one of two elemental statuses, which hoses players who build for raw damage, especially if they invested a lot of materials into Blast Safi'Jiva weapon augments. Playing to a monster's weakness is all fine and dandy, but as long as they don't have an immunity you should be capable of defeating that monster, it's just going to be sub-optimal. I never bothered building for a specific element after my first few hunts in low rank because I realized that you don't need to grind out new weapons for each new hunt, you just power through with what you've already been working with.
Lastly, the fact that they do not allow you to use a farcaster to escape Escaton Judgement just feels cheesy. You're taking a massive time loss with a farcaster compared to jerky or a health booster, and up until this point in the game they allowed the player to use the farcaster to escape one-shot attacks. Behemoth's Meteor, Safi'Jiva's breath, and even Shara Ishvalda's giant bomb could be avoided if you happened to be caught out of position but you had a farcaster in your pouch. It feels wrong to punish players for attempting to use a mechanic they have always had access to up until that point in the game to avoid otherwise certain death if they weren't able to meet the damage threshold.
I think these three things turn this fight ugly in a bad way. It might be a fun challenge for some, but I hated fighting this guy and I look forward to never having to fight him again.