I DON'T KNOW HOW HE WILL WIN! Opinions on Massa's Legal Team 'Bringing it Home'
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 ก.ย. 2023
- So it turns out, this thing is serious. Massa said it was about money before but now his legal team really wants to bring the F1 championship from 2008 back to Brazil. They're going all out.
But I don't see how they're going to go about doing this. Because the whole thing is locked in, as we found out after Abu Dhabi 2021. It would also be a rather hollow victory if some miracle happens and the title is given 'back' to Massa.
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Next week, Peter Shilton goes after the Argentine Football Association for the Hand of God...
It definitely does have that kind of feel to it, doesn’t it.
And Germany go after FIFA over Hurst's second goal in the 1966 World Cup final....
@@NonFlyiingDutchman and we’ll go after Ze Germans for Lampard’s goal in 2010.
Because that actually did cross the line.
@@AidanMillward Indeed, The lawyers are going to be busy!
The lawyers are the only ones who will win. 😞
Massa's lawyers asking Lewis for the title is like me asking my crush for advice on how to get over her rejecting me (real story)
It might work give it a go? Ask her?😆
I’m not getting back together with you.
This case is perhaps a testament to how even now after all these years, the echoes of Flavio's shenanigans still ring around the Formula 1 paddock in some form.
On the Brundle having to hand back his trophy for Detroit issue he said on a Collecting Cars podcast with Chris Harris that he still has the trophy next to the screws that were used to put his foot back together. Absolute Legend
He also said it during the 2021 Belgian 'Grand Prix' broadcast while telling stories
It's a stock-in-trade answer from Brundle. He's even said it in some old copies of Autosport. Brundle can sound slightly bitter at times and this is one where he was rightfully bitter. Then again, Ken Tyrrell was a royal pain in the arse given that almost every race from late 70s to the mid 80s he would protest the legality of the turbo engines. It's no wonder FISA were royally pissed off with him.
Most of me thinks that a lawyer/manager already connected to Felipe got wind of this story, imagined the six figure injection into their bank account and smooth talked Felipe enough for him to start this process. He took the ‘08 loss like a pro, retired on a high at Williams then had a bonus year to boot. Always seems like a good dude.
The case really should be thrown out.
Yes, it sucks Massa lost the title. But there were so many events before and after Singapore that could have swung it in Felipe's favour.
I would say Massa was the reason why Massa lost the title.
Idk man. Ferrari was also a big factor in it. They screwed up so many races its just like last year
@BlogVomMax Exactly. The courts will point that out too.
@@BlogVomMaxFerrari didn’t spin 6 times in Silverstone
@@josiahboatengmyrie ha forgot about that one! Yeah massa's not getting that title
Exactly, this is so pointless because he spun so many times in Silverstone, he barely stayed on track, whereas Lewis dominated from start to finish and was the only driver who remained calm in the wet conditions, he almost lapped the entire grid. Why bring this up years later and just get over it when Massa cost himself. He isn’t doing himself any favours whatsoever and losing a lot of respect. It’s like I should be rewarded a first class because I got 68% or I should’ve been given a promotion because I worked harder than the person who got it!
Just because there is no (or only "shaky") legal precedent it does not mean Massa therefore can't win. I, for one, wish him the best of luck. Imagine how Felipe must feel seeing one of the main protagonists in this sordid affair now strutting up and down the F1 paddock again after Formula 1 officially welcomed Flavio Briatore back into the fold last year, as an "ambassador for the sport" (he so deeply loves) no less... to me that's akin to the UCI making Lance Armstrong an "ambassador for cycling", a "slap in the face" if there ever was one. That brazenness alone warrants Formula 1 being taught a hard lesson.
I can't help but feel that Massa was initially keeping his feet on the ground over this, having only been seeking financial compensation and whatnot at first, but since then some lawyer or someone has got into his head and pushed him to try and go all the way.
"we want everything that happened in 2008/2009 to come to light"
so we can get all the details on how ferrari screwed over Raikkonen ?
In an alternate universe Kimi is a 4 times world champion right now lol
Was that the thing where his suspension geometry got changed for several rounds in 2008 in order to drop him out of contention?
@@RANDOMZBOSSMAN1 Is there any way to travel to this universe?
@@potatogirlcultist19 Vodka and a party.
Hopefully we also get also all the details on the steward with ties to Ferrari who "fixed" the Belgian GP. Not even a big fan of Lewis, but if we talk about Singapur, we have to talk about Spa.
I just want to say these videos are great to put on in the background while doing work/editing. Great work!
Wonderful analysis, couldnt have done it better. Keep on.
The whole problem here is that even if the cheating scandal had come to light immediately the likely outcome would have been Alonso being disqualified, not the whole race result being thrown out. I don't see how Massa can possibly argue his way around that, given that most of the people who could have decided otherwise are dead and therefore unable to offer their opinion in court.
Another example of cheating: Rosberg finished second in the 1983 Brazilian GP, but got disqualified for being push started after he stalled his car in the pits during his stop. But rather than promoting everyone else, they just took his points away.
That sounds similar to Speedway's 1990 world championship: Shawn Moran finished 2nd then was disqualified after his drugs test result from a previous round was published. Third was not promoted so records show no second place for that season.
Rosbeeg was lucky to get that title with just 1 win
@@mike04574 Well, there were a number of drivers that had serious accidents (Pironi) or died in an accident (Villeneuve) that helped with that. I think Renault had reliability problems while Ferrari had sorted out the car and engine fairly fast.
This whole thing reminds me of the lawyers in the film Bank of Dave
-"We're lawyers, we're on the side of whoever's paying us; even if they're guilty"
-"And if they're delusional?"
-"Even better..."
On a side note though, the only time i can think of a championship being overturned was the 1986 WRC. The short(ish) version of it is at Rally Sanremo the scrutaneers disqualified all 3 Peugeots on the grounds that their ground effect side skirts were illegal. Supposedly because their title rivals were Lancia and the italian scrutaneers wanted Lancia to win. But when they rocked up to rally GB the British scrutaneers deemed them completely legal. Mirko Alen and Lancia won the title initally at the Olympus rally but Peugeot won their appeal 11 days later and the title was then given to Juha Kankkunen.
The difference is though Peugeot actually had a case because Kankkunen probably would have won the championship at Rally GB had he not been disqualified. And once more they didn't wait 15 bloody years to protest it...
How did you manage to use they're correctly once and higher up you used their
@@AdminAbuse because I'm a moron who can't type...
In reality, lawyers hate genuinely delusional (as opposed to just hopelessly optimistic) clients, because working with a genuinely delusional client is a good way to end up having to choose between "getting paid" and "continuing to have a license to practise law".
@@grommile "hopelessly optimistic" that is probably the nicest description of Massa's antics I think we're going to hear...
//they didn't wait 15 bloody years to protest it...//
Yeah, but Massa is only protesting now because of the comments Bernie (maybe? probably?) made earlier this year. New information.
Great Flag Mate - Well Done
I do think it's fair that Massa, following Bernies statement, wants to get every little bit of information he can. I absolutely understand where he's coming from. And if he infact was - royally or otherwise - screwed by how Bernie et co handeled the whole crashgate debackle he is owed a huge apology (which he won't get) from Bernie.
Overturning the championship, that's a whole other question. I don't think it would be right to do so. Especially considering -21 wasn't overturned when they were finished arguing about the letter vs the intent of the safety car rules. And yes, Hamilton is also owed an apology for how that was handeled.
I think the '08 title should go to Massa and the '21 title to Hamilton, but that ain't gonna happen.
@@peekaboo15752008 should set a precedent of rounds being cancelled and points being withdrawn. Leaving the last round of 2021 the one before abu Dhabi.
Renault screwed all non-Renault drivers, they did not screw Massa in particular.
@@peekaboo1575 not the case with 21 you give hamilton the win for ABU DHABI GRAND PRIX 2021 +7points max -7points still wins by fastest lap
2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix
Driver Max Verstappen Red Bull Racing-Honda
Time 1:26.103 on lap 39 (lap record)
lewis 25+19+25+25+7+ 0+18+19+12+27+18+7.5+19+ 0+25+10+19+18+25+25+26+18=387.5
MAX 18+25+18+19+25+ 0+26+25+26+ 3+ 2+12.5+25+ 2+18+18+25+25+20+19+18+26=395.5
For those of us who have watched F1 for more than 40 years, imagine all those controversial titles won and lost that would be contested if he was successful. Start at Abu Dhabi 2021 and work your way backwards...
Exactly, Massa is being a knob...
If I start my way backwards, does it end with Mike Hawthorne giving the championship to Stirling Moss or does it go even further back?
There is a massive difference between Abu Dhabi in 2021 and Singapore 2008. Abu Dhabi was a mistaken interpretation of the rules in the 'heat of the moment' under extreme pressure, if what Ecclestone has said is proven to be true, Mosely Ecclestone and Whiting were aware of what happened at in Singapore, all agreed that the correct interpretation of the rules was to cancel the results of the Singapore GP and in a illegal move, which itself is actually just as bad as what Renault had done, cynically planned and colluded to cover up what had happened to avoid following these rules for their own purposes. All of this before the 2008 season had finished and the championship was awarded, denying Massa the championship in the process.
@@scottofield8141 Except had the result been changed directly after Singapore. the title contenders would have driven differently based on the points they had and what was needed. It's a pointless and flawed argument to challenge it now
this is the problem, i have only watched F1 since 1996, so 27 years, however i am into the hisotry, one of the reasons why i watch Aidan's videos, as you say this is opening a whole can or worms
“It’s not financial.”
Whenever they say it’s not about money, it’s about money.
So if they disqualify everyone from the 1998 season does than Ricardo Rosset will be world champ 🤞
I don't think I could have put that any better than you did Aidan in your closing statement. You win in court, the palpable championship moment is 15 years ago, ya can't really get that feeling back. Everyone kinda looks at you now in a variety of ways, none of them glowing either. I can understand to a degree Felipe's disappointment, but to really be going this hard over it? This movie doesn't end well.
At least when Bobby Unser was in court for Indy '81, he actually finished 1st on-track. Thankfully, he and Mario patched up before Uncle Bobby passed away in '21. Know what they sorted out? Life is too short for that CHIT! Great vid.
A lot of people seem to be under the misconception that this is about how Renault acted but it's not.
It's about proving that F1 knew about it at a time when they were legally obligated to take action and refused to do so. If he can do that it means that the 2008 season has no integrity. Although I can't help but feel that if he wins the result of this is that the entire season is scrapped, not just the race and no one gets the trophy.
That won’t be the case given the precedent set before crashgate. At most they’ll disqualify Renault from the championship and let alonso keep his points, which changes nothing.
Also, I wonder if massas transgressions in Japan will be brought up as counter,
Given by the FIA rule book he should be given two 30 second penalties for doing what Lewis did at spa.
There is no reason whatsoever to scrap the race. There is no precedent for that, and it would make zero sense. Crashes happen, and for all drivers except Alonso and PIquet Jr this was a crash like any other crash. Alonso does not deserve the win in Singapore, but that's it. Massa did not win any points there because Ferrari blundered.
@@ronald3836 If Massa was already 2008 world champion (let's say he had a great pit stop, didn't spin in other races, engines didn't fail), I would *still* throw the Singapore race out. Everyone's position was affected by the scam. Kubica qualified 4th! (I've never been a Ferrari fan. I've always been a McLaren fan. My friends and family would quickly tell you about my general loathing of anything Ferrari. My view doesn't come from any love of Massa or his team.)
What do you say to that?
@@rhyswheeler858 I'd say those aren't relevant enough examples. Cheating to make one's own car faster, or Schumi trying to take out one other driver, is not the same as rigging the race that we saw in Singapore. I don't think they are precedent; I don't think they set any precedent. They aren't comparable.
Renault's cheating wasn't done in a vacuum, to enhance their own performance, it was done to the race itself. It's not the car that's illegal, or that crashing is illegal, such that we can exclude Renault and get a clean result. The people who want to penalise Renault in isolation, not throw out the whole race, seem to be forgetting that rigging the whole race was the point of the scam.
@@stephengalanis not at all. The investigation at the time concluded that fernando had no prior knowledge of crashgate. Just like spygate. If you really think that 15 years later they can prove he knew about it your as desperate as felipe is.
Renault were also disqualified from the 2019 Japanese GP after finishing 6th and 10th place after they were found to automatically adjust the brake balance.
I don't know if he's looking for money, or attention; but this won't go anywhere. His "If I wasn't screwed out of a win on Singapore, I would be champion" is similar to me saying "If I had a rich dad I would have made it to F1". It's not as simple as "If A then B". There are a whole lot of things in between A and B.
PS: I like the guitar and the amps in the background. Motorsports and guitar make up for a very nice combo.
Problem is that massa was so far ahead in that race he had the luxury of a strategically planned pit stop with a big gap behind not a forced one which affected the whole grid not just massa and Lewis that's the difference.
@@Byronthegoonerand it was his error that led to him driving down the pit lane with the fuel hose still attached. Blaming crashgate for your own error is pathetic and a massive reach on massas part
@@rhyswheeler858 you completely ignore my point okay "mate" thanks for the "debate"
@@Byronthegooner it’s not missing your point as you didn’t have one to begin with. You’re assuming that the error never happened which is fantasia at best.
The thing is Hamilton only gained from that incident by accident, Renault cheated for their benefit not to effect the championship. Alonso even said that year he'd rather see the championship go to ferrari than mclaren
That's irrelevant when a race is fixed the result has to be voided, that's in the rulebook.
@@roller98 Ah yes that's why Austria 2002, Germany 2010, Japan 89 and 90 were all voided weren't they. Oh wait...
And of course Saudi 2021 the worst one. @@MegaTimtheman
@@roller98 the race wasn't fixed for anyone but Renault, to everyone else it was just a race with a safety car
@@patepulkkinenvtec2403 ramming someone on purpose to win the championship is definitely cheating though isn't it
I want this case to go forward and win - if only for the couple of cracking vis this will get us from you
The one MAJOR difference though with 2021 is that if they null and void Abu Dhabi 2021, Max still gets the title because he was ahead on points/tiebreaker having more GP wins.
I watch your content almost every day, and it is consistently great. Thanks.
Also, almost every day I ask myself "What is the piece of music you have in your opening credits." I like it many.
Shazam suggests, Jazz Club by the Freesounders.
Another problem I see with Massa's case is that Ferrari could have won the title, if they have supported Kimi Räikkönen from the beginning till the end. But because of the Santander money, they've decided they can gift the title to Massa.
Everyone should send up for themselves, but this whole story is silly.
There is a difference though between cheating and matchfixing, if a match/race is deemed fix the result has to be void.
It wasn't fixed. Briatore arranged for the crash to help Alonso but he still had to win the race against 18 other drivers who were all trying to win it too. There was no pre-determined fix whereby the result was decided in advance.
But the team that didn't cheat would typically be given a forfeit win. Likewise, the only fair thing to do for Singapore '08 would be removing Alonso from the results, punishing everybody else for it would effectively tell teams "Hey, in certain circumstances, we could cheat and get points taken off our rivals."
If its proven that Mosely as Head of the FIA and Ecclestone as the Head of F1 were aware of the cheating prior to the end of the season but they chose not to make it public for commercial/reputational reasons then the race result was fixed by the FIA/F1 not a team/driver as such rather than the team/driver being disqualified the whole result need to be nullified. This goes beyond what Renault did and becomes something much more serious. Maybe the only 'fair' result is the title for 2008 should not be awarded to anyone the whole season discounted as far as championship results are concerned (rather like the Tour De France with Lance Armstrong's titles)
@@scottofield8141 I think it depends on the circumstances. If they knew about it months later after the title was already decided I can understand them thinking 'best not open this can of worms'. If they knew about it within a day or two of the race they really should have taken some kind of action against Renault there and then, up to and including the loss of the SIngapore win and the stripping of all their constructor's points.
Thing is, there is absolutely no precedent for simply scrapping the result of a Grand Prix and removing it from the record books. If the winning team has cheated, you disqualify them and move everyone else up a place, that's how it's always been done. And if you do that, as the video makes clear, it doesn't help Massa.
The other thing is, if the FIA lose this case and Lewis is stripped of his title, what's stopping HIM suing the FIA? His whole brand is that he's the joint most successful driver ever in WDC terms, you take that away he doesn't have that and that may have material consequences for his personal sponsorships. He can sue the FIA for bungling the whole situation so badly that he lost one of his titles. Then he can take action to get back his seventh title by having the 2021 one given to him, at which point no doubt Max will start lawyering up. Where does it end?
Many of the same people cheering Massa on are the same ones who didn't want the 2021 result looking at too closely because 'it shouldn't be decided in court' which to me just shows they're not interested in the integrity of sport, just dunking on a driver they don't like. Whatever hurts him, they're on board with.
7:31 - Did you do “A VIDEO ON THIS” because “NGL” one of my favorite f1 cars “EVER CREATED”!!!!
I still love Mosley’s “1 million for the offence, 99 million for Ron Dennis being a twat” quote. It’s true, but funny as hell
I think Felipe has forgotten how he ‘won’ the 2008 Belgian Grand Prix. Ferrari International Assistance was in full swing that day.
You can equally say his championship was lost because the fueler messed up. How could we know that would not have happened whether the crash or not.
He should sue the fueler then.
No, he lost because he fucked it up in Australia, Malaysia, Monaco, Silverstone an Japan. I mean ofc he was unlucky in Hungary and Singapore, but was also really lucky in Belgium and France but overall IMO u can say Hamilton kinda deserved it.
@@patepulkkinenvtec2403 just no.... one pole and one win, plus no fastest laps whatsoever? Kimi if not Hamilton. The stats don't lie.... but it's Lewis tite - it would be pure folly to take it away from him. Massa is pi$$ing in the wind or his lawyers are I should say... poor Massa it just wasn't to be and Ecclestone is the biggest wind up regarding this, he has even retracted that statement too....
What you said at the end, the whole paper title thing, 100% true and I might add, that having seen the Brazilian fan culture you can multiply it. They will still feel robbed. Just not for a title, but for the opportunity to celebrate and robbed of having a hero for a while. I can not imagine, that a victory in court will make him a national hero and have people dancing in the streets.
And yes, Massa wont have the thing the Michael had 2000 after passing the chequered flag, either.
It kinda seems like a loose loose situation. He should just sui Briatore for a shitload of money, to compensate the financial losses, or something.
I won first place in the 1974 Cheriton ( its in Somerset) "visit to Mars" drawing competition.
When I was 7.
Confession time ... I cheated because my sister helped me.
As a man of integrity, I would like to offer the certificate and the 12p I won to the runner up.
Precendent set .. come on Lewis. 😂
A poster on the Autosport forum suggested a possible alternative cover-up in that the FIA chose not to disqualify Renault from Singapore so as to keep Hamilton from two extra points and help Felipe in the championship, as this fitted in with other events of that season.
Nice Falcon t-shirt
The video title says it all. (An excellent, well balanced video.)
I can't see any was a UK court can give Massa what he wants. Money yes (if he had the evidence), but never this. It's far beyond the court's powers.
And there are obvious legal issues with the 14 year delay between the incident becoming public knowledge (the latest date Massa could have first known). The court will require a very good reason for such a delay to hear the case. (In the real world you can't get away with what Ferrari did in 2003 with the Michelin tyres and delay beginning an action until a time of your chosing, without a very good reason.)
Secondly as Aiden covered in the video the correct remedy which should have been applied at the time is Renault being disqualified from the Singapore race, not the entire race being struck from the championship. (If Bernie, Max & co. knew at the time, then that just reinforces this point, as I see it.)
Thirdly as Aiden also covers so well, the whole argument that Singapore cost him the title just doesn't hold up. Many other mistakes were made, 2008 was a rather messy season for Massa. And even as far as Singapore goes, the Renault cheating merely determined the timing of Massa's pit stop. That pit stop had to happen at some point (even without Renault), by no stretch of the imagination did Renault actually cause the Ferrari incident which ended Massa's race. Maybe the timing put Ferrari under more pressure, but maybe they would have been under even more pressure if the pit stop had happened later in the race as scheduled. We'll never know. What we do know is Ferrari's lights system had been attracting attention before Singapore, everyone could see it was risky - iirc there had been other near misses before.
With the ferrari lights system IIRC there was a near miss at that European GP that year think Kimi had a really bad unsafe release
I do think you missed the point a little bit. Massa isn't going after Renault for fixing the Singapore GP. Renault were already punished, he's going after the FIA for knowing it was fixed and not doing anything about it until after the title was decided, removing Massa's ability to protest the result. He feels cheated by the FIA itself, not Renault.
I still think he'll lose but I can see why he's angry.
Rubens: you get used to it after a while
The one thing that's different from the examples you gave - time gap. Spygate, 1997 Jerez, Tyrell's Cosworth-powered shotgun? All was resolved stat-wise in the same year in which they were occurred. The final standings were in place by the time the championship trophy was given out. What there is ZERO precedent for it the FIA changing HISTORIC results. Senna kept his 1990 title despite owning up a year later, for instance. Pretty sure this is hard-coded in the rules - unless there's an open protest, results are set in stone for all time after that year's prizegiving. So Massa's case has no chance of anything other than compensation. And another thing no-one ever mentions - his zero score in Singapore was down to Ferrari fluffing his pitstop. Who says they wouldn't have done that in a normal race?
"Of course I intentionally crashed into Prost to win the championship. The fuck are you gonna do about it? Take away my championship? Lmaooo." Said Senna before driving off into the sunset in his Honda NSX with his trophy in hand and his underaged girlfriend in the passenger seat.
He lost the Championship because he fucked it up in Australia, Malaysia, Monaco, Silverstone an Japan. I mean ofc he was unlucky in Hungary and Singapore, but was also really lucky in Belgium and France but overall IMO u can say he threw it away by himself.
I don't think anything will change. Otherwise you can keep going and take on other championships. That will go on forever.
That's why it's good that certain things have an expiration date. I think the champion will be set in stone @ the FIA gala.
The George Russell for 2024-2032 😂😂😂 good luck mate!!
George Russell 2032?!?? . . . Sh--, I'm 10 years late for work! 😨.
How long is the status of limitations around brits rabbiting on about Abu Dhabi 2021?
Aside from the 4 examples you mentioned of Massa retirements/mistakes, spinning and ending up in the gravel entirely on his own at Malaysia from a comfortable 2nd could be argued as part of the reason he didn't win the 2008 title. It's only round 2, but they're all worth the same points in the end.
Also, at Monaco Massa qualified on pole but went off up an escape road, lost the lead, and finally finishing third. Furthermore, in the Canadian Grand Prix Massa had to pit twice due to a delay with his fuel rig, which put him down to 17 - he eventually finished fifth. And finally, at Monza Massa qualified sixth while Hamilton was down in 15th. Massa finished sixth while Hamilton finished seventh to score two points - not a lot, but could be handy at the end of the season...
The Spygate fine was indeed the biggest, by a big margin. Nr2 would be Mike Tyson for taking a bite out of Evander Hoolifields ear (3 million) tied with the New Jsersy Devils (something about the Draft, I am not familiar with NHL)
Manchester City and PSG (football teams in Europe) got fines for financial fair play breaches they did back in 2013-2014 and had to pay 20 million and 30 million Euros respectively
@@ZsebtelepHUN Thanks, those were not on the list I found, I stand corrected.
Don't forget RedBull Racing got fined $7m for their cost cap overspend. They are number 2 on the list.
I think the Astros may have gotten dinged for $5m for the 2017 sign stealing scheme
Massa should sue Ferrari for costing him the 08 Singapore race and drivers title, when they let him exit the pits with the refuelling hose still attached. He dominated the race up until that point and in typical Ferrari fashion they fucked it up. IIRC he went from 1st to last because of it.
I think, above a certain level, it's less in the moment because it's not about the win...
like a Naval Commander becoming an Admiral to top off his career... they KNOW they are the best.
it is about making the rest of the world formerly recognize and accept it.
this can be through the legal system or in direct combat, it does not matter so much...
I heard a couple of very interesting arguments from the-race website. The first is that apparently Piquest Sr. had a conversation with Mosley/Whiting at the 2008 Brazilian GP where he explained what had happened. At that time the FIA should have started an investigation to verify the claims made by Piquet Sr. The second argument is that drivers sign up to F1 and the rules that come with it (eg a protest cannot be made after 4 days prior to the FIA prize giving gala). At the same time the drivers are expected to adhere to the rules the drivers can expect from the FIA that they properly defend the integrity of the sport and that they make a substantial effort to make sure the championship is run fairly. The main argument from Massa is that because the FIA did not start a research when they were allerted by Piquet Sr. The FIA failed in their responsibility to make sure there is a fair championship, making the rules that drivers sign up to no longer valid. And that would be the entrance in the rules that Massa needs to overthrow the race results.
That all fair, but then Lewis could counter with the steward being on the panel that owned a company that worked with Ferrari at the time and rightly claim that he fixed the spa result in the same way.
Massa has destroyed his legacy for me over this. If Massa is trying to claim to fail play in Singapore, Ham can counterclaim Spa. It is all pointless anyway. The rules of F1 and the FIA state things can't be changed after the season.
Some say if he'd won the world title in Brazil in 2008 there might be one photograph of him without his father gurning in the back of shot
There was " no provision" for Rindt being awarded the championship either, but I don't see Ickx lawyering up.....
damon hill on Schumacher for 94
Hamilton to fia for spa 2008
alonso on lotus/Renault/alpine for spa 2012
etc,etc,etc
basically a Pandora's box of historical controversy will be open
Silly. but well presented.
I've always thought if Massa wins his case, Hamilton will just be stripped of the title. It won't be handed to Massa and that year will be forever written as blank. Look what happened to Lance Armstrong, he was stripped of his Tour de France titles and the years 1999 - 2005 remain blank. Doing it this way will hopefully deter any future cases.
People like to joke or attack Massa's plan to fight the 2008 title on the table.
I dare anyone to not pursue at least slme sort of compensation after the ExPresident of the FIA just said that, had they done their job correctly, you would've become a champion.
I don't know about you, but it seems pretty fair to me for Massa to at least fight for something. Its not that he's bitter for losing against Hamilton. It's that Massa feels robbed and that its unfair what happened. And it was.
And no, this doesnt make it so you can cancel any other championship. Its realñy different for people to think Schumacher cheated in 1994 to Ecclestone actually stating that they knew they had to punish Renault but decided to hide it. That's an actual organization actively trying to not enforce their duty.
Having said that, Hamilton deserved his title and Massa did also make mistakes that probably cost him way more than Singapour.
The fia have made it clear that the results of a season will be official after the prize giving ceremony even after 2021
I figure even on the off chance the whole legal proceedings go in Massa's favour, it shouldn't make much difference to Hamilton. He'd still end up with 7 titles, because if they take away the title he won in 2008, they will also have to give him back the one he lost in 2021.
The Belgian cheetahs, female 4x400 track team, got a bronze medal in the Olympics in 2008. This became gold over the years as the teams before them got dq'd for PED use.
Hollow victory idd.
So Massa is blaming crashgate for him loosing the title? Did he forget that Hamilton and other drivers were also impacted by the outcome of that race. Did he also forget that he didn't win several other races that year that Hamilton Won instead.
Hill should do the same with the german driver for what happened in Adelaide 94!
I love how that incident still rattles Yer Da nearly 30 years later
@@sanfordcurtis8242people are still rattled about Suzuka 89 but Damon has to shut the fuck up.
The mind boggles.
small contradiction: at the 12:20 mark you post "2021-???? max" followed by "2024-2032 George" meaning that the "????" can only be one possible number
also Hamilton was screwed out of the Spa win (30 second penalty for cutting a corner he gave back) that year which BENEFITTED Massa.
Actually Toto should encourage Lewis to do the right thing and acknowledge that the 2008 championship was robbed from Massa and let the statistics in the Wikipedia be updated. After all, nobody read those anyway right? Anyone?
"Precedent" in F1 doesn't matter a whit. F1 isn't a court. They aren't required to be self-consistent in anything.
4:46 "I went on the Internet and I found this......."
I'm wondering how much of this is Massa's legal team running the show vs what Felipe wants. Publically at least, Felipe was gracious in defeat. I've friends in Brazil who are asking the same ....yes but why, what is he doing, sort of question
When you look at what was known about crashgate vs what might be true, it starts to make sense.
Before Bernie's comments (assuming he isn't spewing bs), it was fair to assume FIA did everything they could, but truth came out too late to overturn the title.
But if what Bernie said isn't pure bs, then it's suddenly becomes that FIA didn't do they job properly and it costed Massa the title.
@@russotusso1695The FIA didn't do their job right? What a shocker!
@@russotusso1695given Nelson It’s silence on crashgate until he was fired by Renault it would’ve been impossible to pin that on them in the timeframe that they had before the prize giving ceremony. Just look at how long the case took
Massa's lawyers asking Hamilton for his support is like the UK government asking Chelsea fans to thank them for getting rid of Roman Abramovich. Never going to happen.
For the record, no one in Brazil is siding with Massa on this one. His one great image in F1 was his grace in defeat, and even that is now gone.
There's that fantastic image of him thanking the Brazilian crowd on the podium while underneath Lewis and team are causing scenes. It's one of my favourite motorsport photographs.
Basiacally: "How to ruin your reputation in 5 seconds"
@@DrTortoiselle depends on who you are. If it’s England in 1982 it’s “deal with it”. If you’re a Massa fan, he’s the real champ. 😅
Despite how well he handled the defeat publicly at the time, I wasn't that surprised when I first heard the news he was trying to take legal action. Throughout 2008 Massa seemed to have a bee in his bonnet about Lewis and the championship, for some reason. And something between them flared up again in 2011, and at other odd times - it never fully went away.
I wish he had just left us with our final memories being his Williams years, when he was driving well and reminded us of the driver he was in 2006. He was astonishing that year, such a massive improvement (especially mentally) over his Sauber years, a much smoother driver too.
That is something that I was curious about, so thank you for shining light on it. Like you and Aidan, his picture of taking the win while being miserable with tears in his eyes because he lost the title is one of those memorable pictures, and the way he handled himself in that moment made me a fan of his attitude on track, plus his whole comeback, even if off the track I don't really follow him.
But I don't see the benefit of him getting the title now. His reputation will be the same, Hamilton's will be the same, I doubt he'll get much money off it now. The only thing I'm amused about is that Bernie's shit talking is having consequences for him, feel sad for Whiting's name being dragged through the mud though.
What is being glossed over by Massa's side is the typical Ferrari cockup in the pits. The "electric lollipop" had failed earlier in the year, *_yet they continued to use it._* How can _anyone_ say that the exact same cockup _wouldn't_ have happened during the originally planned pitstop? Their tech bollocksed up the more frantic pitstop, but the _tech didn't know there was a panic going on._ The guy supposedly in charge of it all (they were supposed to have had someone who could override it if necessary. Though frankly that made the tech redundant 🤦🏻♀️) didn't stop him leaving, and Massa didn't think to look in either mirror to make sure everything was okay.
IMHO, Ferrari are as much to blame for him losing the title as he was for his own mistakes during the year, and as Renault for cheating. Lewis and McLaren had _nothing_ to do with the Piquet crash. Why should they pay for it? I have no moral objection to them sharing the title, but to take it away from Lewis would be very wrong IMHO. I'm saying this as a neutral fan (stopped being a "fangirl" in '99. It's much easier on the nerves!)
It's pretty simple. They null and void the race, recalculate the points and he is ahead on the points and wins. Its not rocket sincce and has been done is other sports in similar ways. Like it's so simple and he probably will win the case
One thing that I keep wondering about both this race and Abu Dhabi '21: lots of people talk about voiding the race, has this ever actually happened? I can't think of an example of a whole race being retrospectively cancelled.
It’s never happened.
@@AidanMillward with Abu Dhabi '21one thing has been overlooked if the fia reset the race results to before the safety car giving hamilton the win +7 points
max 2nd -7 points there are 8 points in play the 1 point is fastest lap thay went to Max and this may be why MERCEDES did not contest it
2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix
Driver Max Verstappen Red Bull Racing-Honda
Time 1:26.103 on lap 39 (lap record)
lewis 25+19+25+25+7+ 0+18+19+12+27+18+7.5+19+ 0+25+10+19+18+25+25+26+18=387.5
MAX 18+25+18+19+25+ 0+26+25+26+ 3+ 2+12.5+25+ 2+18+18+25+25+20+19+18+26=395.5
If Mosley and Whiting were still alive it would put this thing to rest a lot faster (most likely NOT in Massa's favor - and I say that as a huge Massa fan). Having this just being based off of some insanity uttered by Bernie means that, no matter the decision (Massa won't win, but regardless...) everyone will keep this controversy alive from now until the eventual heat death of the universe.
It's a tricky one. Yes Crashgate brought out the safety car & gave Alonso victory but the kick in the teeth that cost him any chance of scoring points was the pitlane incident when the new traffic lights systems introduced by Ferrari ballsed up & the team sent Massa with the fuel rig. Now Massa & his team of lawyers will probably try to say well we had to send him out ahead of Lewis & cause of the crash that's why the team rushed & made a human error but a counter to that is a few races earlier in Valencia I believe in green flag conditions Kimi had the exact same problem, fuel rig attached to car. I do feel for Massa, he should be compensated but not champion
It is not tricky at all for the reason you give. Renault did not intentionally take out Massa. They did not even take out Massa. It was Ferrari that did that. Massa could try suing Ferrari.
TBH, this would've never come up with Hamilton and Wolff didn't complain about Max "stealing" the title.
It didn’t come up until Bernie said something that dropped everyone on it but sure, let’s pin it on Toto.
I don't think he has a leg to stand on, sadly for him. It is way too late to do anything about it and it's very difficult he would have won it anyway. On top of that, would you want to be known as the guy who won a title in a courtroom years later? He would be seen as little more than a complainer. I agree with you, the best he could expect or should get is financial.
Not really sure the Santander thing makes a difference though being that the Brazillians speak Portuguese which is based more on French. And the only Latin aspect to it is more Italian than Spanish, so really not sure that could be used as a bargaining chip for money lost. Yes as champion there would obviously have been financial benefits, but I am really not that sure its worth the court case to do so as this could ruin his reputation even amongst his own nation.
I like massa but just no. The whole logic behind this is so tenuous. Why would making the race void be the outcome when that’s not happened before or since? Maybe if Ferrari had handled the pitstop correctly things would be difficult, that’s not even briatore’s fault.
I’m not a massive Hamilton fan but he won fairly and honestly was probably the better driver over the course of the year. Plus there’s the whole Belgian gp controversy that I entirely side with Hamilton on. This is his title and it’s pretty rude to ask him to voluntarily give it up.
I’ve always thought Massa deserved that championship and honestly being a Ferrari fan isn’t the reason. I genuinely always think it should have been his. But to win it now like this. If it had been Lewis who cheated and gained a championship through it then maybe but considering he played no part in any wrong doing then no. Financial compensation and recognition of what happened. Leave the records as they are and we can all make up or own minds who the real champ was.
loving the GR63 pun at the end...
Would like to see him as WC but honestly he's to kind of a driver though (?)....
like the iceman -> only winning a title because Alonso & Hamilton f**ked it up heavily amongst themselves....
Massa's got no chance because of them old folks resenting to stand up for their mistakes (looking @ U bernie) and because the Authorities in Frace (?) have more pressing cases to work on...If it were to be held in a British court ... fougetaboudit -> because the legal system was outdated a several hundred years ago!!!!
I'd still love to see Massa win!
1) He earned it!
2) Hamiltin would definitely try and claim the 2021 title having a great chance at it.....
Aidan! thoughts on the Number 9 Derby last night?
for those who dont know, The Number 9 Derby is between Stourbridge and Halesowen Town in Football
I’m in brownhills so my local clubs are Chasetown and Rushall 🤣
His new pile of money might help him celebrate
As a Russell fan, the next best chance for him to win the title is 2026 with the new rules. Red Bull and Verstappen will dominate next year and 2025, it is a fact. I just hope Norris, Leclerc and Russell can also be in the mix and we end the decade with more variety of champions like the 2000s (last 5 years of those saw 4 different world champions).
there's also the chance for Lewis to finally take his 8th or possibly 9th championship
IMO It's still about money. Lawyers are just adding stuff, so they could drop them when the real negotiations start.
What about 1981 then if I have worked it out correctly if the South African GP had counted that year, then Reutemann would have been champion on 58 points and Piquet 2nd on 56. If somehow this gets overturned could it open the floodgates to all kinds of legal procedings.
Hold on, this one is very easy
FIA - well we've reinstated the race, but we have disqualified every competitor for breaking the rules on aerodynamic bodywork as they were all using sliding skirts.
There you go, floodgate closed.
I love the alledged quote @ 6:00. "That it [the fine] was $1 million for the offence, and $99 million because Ron Dennis is a C###." I do enjoy your ability to intertwine fact with humour, as such statement seems so "on-brand" for Max Mosely.
The actually funny part is using Jason Plato to cover my mouth.
I personnally believe Dennis gave the story about Mosely's Nazi theme'd Spankathons to the press in revenge. I wish it to be so,,,,
Don Quixote had a better chance of slaying the giant...if you've got it spend it!!
Just give Massa one of Bernie's watches. I'm sure he will be happy with that.
10:33 he also spun out Malaysia
Massa wanting Hamilton's help, when he must be aware of how that worked out for Sutil, is probably the funniest thing about this.
If its so inconsequential.. then give it to him.
For what it's worth, expelling all of Renault's driver's points and promoting the drivers behind them (like Tyrrell), Hamilton wins the championship 104 to 102 (if my maths is correct)
Think its more about lost earnings than the WDC..
King George VII for WDC
If 2008 is changed then the FIA will need to change 2021, 1994, 1990, 1989…….
If he is going on what bernie said during the interview, he is putting words in his mouth. Feeling something iffy and knowing something did happen is completely different
there a roomer Lewis say Michael should lose his from 1994 but i'm taken it as a pinch of salt
On the one hand, I'm inclined to think Massa might have been hit harder than initially thought by that spring. Probably a bit harsh. On the other, Massa is entitled to challenge if there is any doubt at all, which there is, thanks to Bernie's comments.
It's possible F1 was suspicious of Renault but couldn't act without a smoking gun. The only way I think I can see Massa succeeding in his case is if someone in the know (eg. Nelson Piquet Sr. or a Renault employee) explicitly informed Ecclestone, Moseley or another bigwig that cheating had occurred and it wasn't investigated due to a lack of hard evidence (which could have been uncovered had a tribunal been held immediately). I doubt that Massa would get the championship awarded to him in any case, but he may be entitled to a payout or Alonso could be stripped of the win.
The reason for saying it's not about the money is to get offered money. That's what I'd do as Massa's lawyer
blame it on Massi