Great explanation how that valve works. At first I thought it was using the cold pipes to recirculate the hot water, which made me think that now you had no cold water. But your explanation helped me understand. Thanks.
I like your honest, knowledgable and straight forward approach in your video, sharing your pertinent observations and experience like we are your friends, not boring and not pretending to be a TV show with bad acting or waste of time "I'm gonna talk about" or ridiculous logos and intros and never getting to the point. You're great!
Nice dyi idea. I would highly highly suggest you put some type of support under that pump as you have the weight of the pump and hose on that shark bite fitting. As cool as those shark bite fittings are, having it how you have it, it's a ticking tune bomb waiting to pull apart and flood that room. Also fasten that bridge valve to the cabinet wall, pipes and hoses need to be supported as the stress is what weakens them then eventually coming home to a flooded bathroom. That is why pipe supporting is plumbing code. Thanks for the informative video on how to save money on water 👍
Very good explanation of the bridge valve or thermal valve. I’ve listen to many TH-cam’s on this and it becomes very simple after I’m acquainted with it in the circulating pump but your explanation under the sink is the best I’ve heard. Plus you mentioned you can use the bridge valves on multiple areas which I wasn’t sure if.
Nice video....Great idea for the circulation pump. In our situation part of the house was serviced by the circulation pump but not the kitchen (where we mostly need it far more often). I put this on the most distant sink and poof....the other 2 sinks that are inline are hot immediately as well. Our circulation pump has a timer or you can let the self-learning program do the job. For the most part the self-learning is working well enough for now. We unplug both the circulation pump and turn off the breaker when we are gone for an extended period.
Hi Paul, thanks for this posting. I also recently installed the same pump, only the stainless version. The system works fantastic however I wanted to share some more information for anyone reading these posts. I have a Rinnai Tankless heater, with the circulation pump on the cold (inlet) side of the heater, and I have two under-sink Taco Hot-Link Valves, one in the 2nd floor bathroom and one under the 1st floor Kitchen Sink. What I did notice is that this pump (located in the basement) does not have enough force to overcome the head of the 2nd floor, and satisfy the water heaters flow switch. Once I added the 1st floor valve (which I was planning to do all along), the flow was able to satisfy the water heater. Bear in mind that there was and is flow to the 2nd floor, just not enough to energize the heater by itself. This pump is rated for 8-GPM's, which is twice the flow that should satisfy the WH, but not if only pushing up to the 2nd floor due to the head. That being said, with both valves installed, the water heater will shut down as soon as the 1st floor Taco valve closes due to hot water being present, even if the 2nd floor is still flowing. All that said, the system works fantastic and provides hot water to both floors. I also installed a smart plug and just asks Alexa to start the pump anytime I need instant hot water.
@@adm369 I have an older Rinnai, model # R75-LSi. I installed the pump on the inlet side of the tankless WH, and I have two of the bypass valves, one on the first floor kitchen sink and one on the second floor bathroom sink.
Hi Paul, thanks for your video which helped me to install a recirculation pump with my tankless. This Bokywox pump worked with ny tankless, before I purchased watts pump and it didn't work with my tankless but this one does work when connected with watts thermal valve under the sink. I connected it with digital timer that run every one hour for only two minutes from 7:00 am to 9:00 pm and it work fine and give faster hot water. Connecting it with smart plug like what you did will be a better choice if you want to control it with your mobile or with voice command which I may do in the future. Anyway I just wanted to thank you and to confirm this setup work with my tankless.
Great to hear. One update regarding my pump. I switched to a stainless steel pump head so no rust could be introduced into the system, as one reader mentioned.
The pump will most likely take the shortest path then I guess therm valve will close and then next open one will cycle.....and so on. I would be curious to find out.
Thanks for the detailed video. I added our pump under the sink and used Kasa (TPLINK) smart plug. You can set a Smart Action to always turn the plug off after xx minutes.
I had a problem understanding how the bridge valve worked. Kind of a simple genius solution. You gave a great explanation. I'm calling the plumber soon. Thanks, Ken
Dude! I love you for this! You really explained the hell out of this and it was super super easy to understand if the viewer watched to the end! Absolutely phenomenally helpful!!👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
I knew I wasn't clever. Awesome video thanks for sharing this was stupid useful even though I wasn't looking for it. I saw the title and thought damn it's a thing. And should be probably more common then just now seeing it is. Cause with an rv this is stupid useful on limited water. Thanks a bunch
I wanted to throw a comment here - We built a 2900sqft single story home this past year - builder stated the Tankless Water Heater (TWH) was great and we would love it - In our previous home of 15 years we had a 60 gallon gas water heater and was great no problems - Anyway house completed 4 months ago and we moved in - Sooo guess what - we have hated the TWH - we built a large 1 story home and the TWH is on the other side of the house in the crawl space - takes about 4 minutes every morning to get hot water to the Master Bath... wife takes shower at 530 am and myself at 630 AM - so of course the water cools down in that hour and we waste soooo much water. We saw this video and was so excited and did the install - simple enough - bought the pump in this video only upgrading to the stainless steel housing, bought the Watts under sink connector off Amazon which BTW gets bad long term reviews, Gosund smart plug...1 shark bite union connector and 1 shark bite 18" hose connector - total parts under $200 - Time to install everything about 2 hours - Verdict - FAIL - noticed no pre improvement in hot water - still wasted same amount of water and took same amount of time to get hot water to MB. BUT - guess what - IM now loving my TWH the most since moving in to our new home. . We returned the Watts thermo valve back to Amazon ($62) - went to Lowes and bought (3) 20 feet sections of 3/4 PEX($36), 2 pex Tee ($5), 2 pex couplings($5), 1 shark bite check valve($8), roll of 25' plastic hanging strap, small box flat head nails, a crimp tool/pex cutter/ crimp connector combo kit off Amazon ($28) - so total of about $92 - additional items we bought was 20 pieces of 3/4" foam tubes to insulate hot water pipes. ---- So total amount was still under $300. We had a quote from the plumber that did the plumbing in our home and he quoted us $1800 to do the work. . Spent about 1.5 hours under the house running the 3/4" pex from Master bath back to TWH adding insulation and hanging with the straps as we went - we placed a tee connector on the cold water side just before coming into water heater and installed check valve before the TEE - so now I have a complete hot water loop where in the morning I can tell Alexa to turn on hot water and my hot water is now super heated because the pump cuts on , causing the TWH to cut on, heats the water then recirculates back through the TWH again heating the hot water again and again. I now loose very little water in the morning and Im assuming that Im not using as much gas as its reheating the warm/hot water again and again- Im talking I turn on my hot water and within 10 seconds I can take a hot shower ( has to bleed out the cold water in the 1/2" pipe coming from the 3/4" pipe) - Frigging nice - I mean NICE. Just as a background - never did any plumping like this before - my wife and I are both nurses - but I am also very mechanically inclined and never pay to do stuff I can do myself. Oh yeah - the smart plug works great and I now have the pump timed to come on at 525am - off at 530 , on at 625am and off at 630 and of course can tell Alexa to turn on at demand - not perfect but not wasting all that water either. . I write all this to encourage anyone that it really wasn't that hard nor time consuming - that is if you have a 1 story home and have access to your crawl space - if you have a slab foundation or 2 story then dont think its to easy. lol - I say time consuming - we had to make a few different trips back to Lowes because we forgot to get the check valve one time and we misaligned a shark bite connector the other time and needed that little orange $2 part to separate the shark bite connection to recut a little straighter pex cut. The Amazon cutters were not the best quality. . one more point I will add - when we received the Watts connector from Amazon the plastic clam packaging had been opened before and lots of tape keeping it shut, so its assumable that someone had did the swappo and returned a bad unit but stating it was good - so maybe that's why I didn't have favorable results such as the maker of this video. Good luck and stay safe and remember to always be nice to others - we need more nice people in this world of ours.
Its sounds like you may have installed the bridge value backwards. Running a cold water recirculating line doesn't seem to be doing anything different from what happens if the bridge value was installed the right way, as the cold water would be forced back up the pipe toward the street, hit the T value leading to the hot water and then as the hot water system is using cold water would go back into the hot water system. Thereby doing exactly the same as your new return cold water pipe. No plumber, but that would explain the no change you were experiencing when first installed as on the hot side you would have the check value that would never allow the water to flow to the cold water side and would be effectively the same as not having a bridge value at all.
@@westwoodandrew LOL - yeah that would have been the most easy fix and would have saved some time and aggravation but I installed the bridge valve correctly and checked again when un installing. So not sure why I didn't have a positive outcome unless it was due to my last point in my above narrative. I will say running a dedicated hot water line alleviates any future issues, no bridge valve to go bad ( Look at the reviews on Amazon for the Watts and the TACO). Used 2 Tees and 1 continuous straight PEX. If you draw it out its one big loop ... It works great, little more time but definitely worth it.
The problem was the single value was not demanding enough water flow to ignite your TWH. If you had added a second value at a different sink location, the flow rate would have increased and ignited your TWH. Having a return line is great but for those that don't want or can't do a return line, add a 2nd value at a different sink location and your problem is solved!
@@reb1225 REB, What is the thing you refer to here (and in other posts) as a "value"? (sorry, i'm an idiot w/ this stuff) Obviously this point you make is a very important one since if the TWH fails to ignite then the whole thing is a fail... and your solutions sounds simple enough... I just don't know what it is, Lol. Thanks in advance for the help!!!
Hi Paul, thanks for taking the time to create this video and share your experience, greatly appreciated! I am shopping outdoor tankless units and was debating if I needed a built in recirculating pump, which is quite expensive. Your solution is far cheaper and more practical for older home piping configurations. I love the added bonus of the Alexa integration idea too! Nicely done!
@@paulsecondi2053 had to give your video a thumbs down because in it you promote a certain company that supports child kidnapping and rape by ICE... as well as union busting and destroying small american businesses with anticompetitive practices.
Thanks for great video. I just finished similar install with my 14 year old Bosch tankless water heater. Everything works well. Set up my smart plug schedule to run the pump for 3 minutes every hour 7 am to 8 pm. So far so good.
@@josefbaikal Thank you. I just called their customer service and they told me that I can only do up to 4 schedules. Is that true? I would like to turn it on/off for 3 minutes every hour from 6-10pm.
@@brandonkarn6675 15 max for Feit brand. I just checked in the app. You can alway do a manual on / off once or twice a day or use Alexa to add one or two routines for scheduling. This way you can have your schedule.
Paul good video after seeing your video I also use Alexa to control the pump I did one thing different; I tell "alexa turn on hot water", smart switch turns on pump for 2 1/2 minutes (in my case on a very cold morning it takes a little over 2 minutes to heat up the hot water pipe. I found that sometimes alexa did not turn off the pump so i use the gosund app to detect the pump is on and turns it off after 3 minutes (incase alexa had a hiccup and did not turn off pump). So when i get ready for a shower "alexa turn on hot water" Alexa responds "I'll put on a pot" then 2 1/2 minutes latter alexa responds on all alexa devices ""water is hot" latter when my wife is ready for her shower she repeats the process. Again thanks for your video had a lot of good information
@@paulsecondi2053 in the smart life app i created a scene that detects "if" the pump was turned on (smart life app detected the switch being turned on" (then) a timer is started and after the time delay smart life will turn off the switch if it is still on, i use the scene as a backup just n case alexa had a hiccup and did not turn off the switch. The alexa app has a shorter time then what i set in smart life (i set smart lift 30 sec longer than alexa
@@albertguerini7160 That is so fabulous, I just set this up!! Thank you! Question how do you edit a current scene? I can't seem to get back into the one I just set up to adjust the run time...
Thanks Paul for this. To share my experience... I used the Grundfos Comfort System (pump plus their "comfort valves" - which are the same as the bridge values) since 2005 with a Tankless. Like you, I used a smart receptacle to control the pump (X10 given when I was doing this it was pretty much the only option). But, the pump Grundfos provided didn't create enough flow, in my case 0.5GPM, to trigger the tankless to fire (the Grundfos system is design for water tanks, so I was trying to hack it for tankless since there were no good tankless recirc options without a dedicated return line on the market in ~2004-2005). So this meant, when I first set it up the pump would just circulate cold water to the faucets! :-( But I discovered on my tankless it was possible to "fake" the 0.5GPM flow switch, i.e. cause the Tankless to fire even if the flow rate was 0,5GPM flow, it would then fire, and the pump would pump the hot water via the comfort vales and hey presto... hot water at the faucets. Then in 2018 I had to change my tankless. My new tankless is far more digital so there was no easy way to fake the 0.5GPM. So for the past 2 years I've been without DHW recirc. Then I found this system www.fasterhotwater.com/Tankless%20circulation%20pump.shtml. I just purchased it and will be installing shortly. This system has a more powerful pump, so it will create much more than >0.5GPM, which will trigger the tankless to fire, *AND* get the water to the faucets way quicker than the Grundfos. Also this system uses the same comfort valves, so no need to switch them out (in fact bridge values used by FasterHotWater are made for them by Grundfos). Lastly, and this is the big advantage, this pump is triggered by any flow >0.17 gpm (about the flow rate when a drip becomes a stream). So opening and closing *any* hot water faucet for a second or two, will trigger the recirc system pump that will trigger the boiler. And 15-45seconds later (depends on how far the bridge valves are from the tankless), there is hot water at the faucets with bridge valves. Once the hot water arrives as the bridge valves, and these close, the flow goes to zero, and the pump turns off automatically (no deadheading, no timer needed). You can also control the pump via a smart receptacle (which I will also be doing). I'll try to remember to report back here once I've installed to share whether the reality lives up to this description! :-)
@@pranayshah44 Sorry haven't installed it yet... And the company is very good to deal with. Answered all my questions promptly... I just called them. The pump arrived very quickly. FWIW the pump is a Grundfos so I have no doubt it will work.
I installed the faster hot water system several years ago and love it. I have a Rennai tankless (for 20 yrs) that requires 0.5 gpm to turn on. My problem was that my dishwasher did not trigger the water heater, so it was trying to wash dishes with cold water. I don't like the timer based recirc pumps because they run only on the timer - too long or at the wrong times - and not automatic. The faster hot water system with their flow monitor is triggered with a very low flow (good for dishwasher), so any hot water use turns on the pump. Because it is on-demand, the pump and thus the water heater only runs when needed. No smart plug or timer or manual switch involved. I don't like the idea of a pump running when the bridge valve closes, so I use a return line (use a check valve on the return). The control can be programmed to run just enough to fill the main trunk with hot water (60 seconds for my house). Any hot water use restarts this timer. I don't see why this system would not work with any tankless water heater. Some tankless models include a recirc pump, but the key for me was the flow monitor. fasterhotwater.com/DRS%20-%20T%20coupon-code.shtml
You should read Pat Foy comments from 3 weeks ago. He was having the same issue and added a 2nd value at a different sink location to increase the flow rate which would ignite the TWH. In Pat's situation, his TWH is in the basement, he originally place one comfort value on the 2nd floor (furthest sink for the TWH) and that would not ignite the TWH. However, he added a 2nd comfort value to a sink on the 1st floor which increased the flow rate enough to ignite the TWH. In Pat's comments, this worked perfectly and he gets instant hot water on the first and second floor. So keep the pump you have and add a second value to increase the flow rate and problem solved.
Trying to wrap my small brain around this one. When I ask for hot water at a fixture, the TWH fires and takes forever to get there. With this system, I ask for hot water and the pump turns on along with the TWH and hot water arrives. How is the pump getting the hot water there faster? I like the idea of no timers or fancy plugs, I'm low tech old school. Thanks for listening.
You are the man! Recently i moved into a new home that has these tankless water heater. Takes forever to get hot water to the master bath. I was looking for a recirculating pump from Rinnai and it was just too many parts to buy and too expensive. This solution is much simpler and easier to install.
@@lsna4 You can make any pump work with a TWH by adding additional under sink values to increase the water flow rate. The problem with a single under sink value is that it does not demand enough water flow to ignite your TWH. By adding a 2nd under sink value, when your pump kicks on at your set/designated time, the water demand (flow rate) for two values is enough to ignite the TWH. Problem solved!
I have been using a similar setup at my place and it's nice but I get hot water coming out from the Cold side at times. This is a great alternative to the expensive returned piping.
I started this way, but save yourself a lot of waste and aggravation and get motion sensors and ditch the timers. Only runs when someone enters those rooms and turns off in 5 minutes, all I needed for the water to be hot in all locations with a dedicated recirc line.
Hi Paul, Thanks for the video..I already have a hot water reccirculating system installed, using a Watts pump...after viewng this video, I plan on adding a Gosung smart plug. Did you consider replacing your old water heater with a heat pump water heater instead of the gas fired tankless unit?
Funny part at 4 minute mark, laughing so hard at whom ever was gonna get some hot water had to wait for your great video to end to be able to finish their shower. The things we won't do to make a good video.
Do you have a parts list ? Want to copy the set up on my older tankless but found it difficult to follow what parts you were using. Appreciate a quick response as I live I’m so cal and need to get on the drought wagon.
Paul, Thank your you for your video, it's very helpful. My tankless heater is outside the house and I think this BoxyWox pump is rated for indoor use only. So would it be OK to install this pump on the incoming hot line under the faucet which is farthest from the pump. I thinking it should work and my pump will be protected from the outdoor weather. Also what is the brand name of the smart outlet plug with an app that you show in your video.
Paul, great video! I installed a Noritz gas tankless gas water heater, model NRC98DV (gq-c2857ws-ff us) indoor installation. The instructions for installing a recirculation pump requires a maximum of 2 GPM. it also says that a pump control signal is the preferred method to control the recirculation pump. For pumps larger than 85w, a relay connection must be used. If the pump control signal is not used, an Aquastat may be used to control the pump. I had planned to use a smart plug to control the pump run time, what do you recommend? Bob Genzel
Thanks for the video. I just starting researching this topic. One question is we have a water softener on just the hot water supply. This will now put the salt water into the cold water lines. At the kitchen sink we would need a different source of water. Question two is how much does the water heater run? It seems the whole sales pitch for the tankless is that it doesn't run much unless you ask for hot water. With this system is the water heater running all the time the pump is on or a lot of the day. Also our Rinnai doesn't seem to modulate very well. You can not just put a low flow through it and have it work. It needs a good flow for it to kick on. Not sure if that pump would trigger it. Thanks
But what if you want cold water when the pump is turned on.. will it be hot water coming out the faucet when you wanted cold? I get you said the device under the sink will switch when the temp gets warm enough, so does that mean it will start out warm/hot but then get cold?
It's important to know you should only put in 1 bridge valve on certain tankless heaters. Rinnai for example often have built in recirculating pumps and explicitly state to only use one bridge valve or what they call a thermal bypass valve. Seemingly the same thing.
Question. How does the water recirculate through the cold water pipes when they are under pressure?? You can’t push water back into the city water supply and you can’t compress water. So how does that work??? Also I’m assuming the pump allows water to go through it when it isn’t running. Correct? Thanks for this video. I’m going to give it a try!!
My understanding is that the cold water in the pipes is circulating but no new water from the main inlet pipe is entering the pipes. So the pressure inside remains the same.
Good video but you don't have to put the pump on a timer they're designed to run all the time. I've had mine running every day for the last four or five years and it is still running.
Great Video Paul! Question? I wonder if I can just use the bridge valve only to circulate cold water without using the pump? I mean I would get the pump and the bridge valve but just wondering? Thank You!
Hi Paul, I think your fix is well thought out. I showed this to my plumber to see if he would do it. This was his reply, "I had a feeling you were going to send me that, I’ve put a lot of those in but not for a tankless. You can’t just slap a recirc pump on a tankless without a storage tank. Recirc pump goes on hot water tank outlet, crossover tee goes under furthest sink, and tankless out goes to storage tank inlet. If you don’t install it this way, you void the warranty." I have since asked him how he would suggest doing it.
Get another plumber, he's using scare tactics. That answer he gave you is standard speak for "I don't want the customer to tell me what to do, plus I don't want to learn anything new". You can check out the different videos Rinnai puts out regarding recirculation. Their newer heaters have built in re-circulation pumps, but, If your heater doesn't have one, Paul's method is a great low cost way to approach it. The Thermal By-Pass valve is installed to allow water to your faucet once the temperature is reached. The Chili Pepper recirculation pump (similar in price to the Grundfoss) comes with a button to activate the pump for a few seconds so you don't have to schedule anything. I have nothing to do with Chili Pepper, but I'm looking to improvise a low cost way to get the same result.
@@xr500t Hi Paul, I since received this from Rinnai after asking them about my plumber's suggestion about a storage tank and voiding of warranty. They also added a pdf of installation instructions and parts list. It's very similar to your method. Hi Michael,
@@mikebarber1799 it looks like the reply from Rinnai is cut off. I'm very interested in what they said. I am boggled by the number of people saying you can't install these on a tankless heater. The heater has no idea if you are recirculating water or if it's going out the tap. It just sees it as flow demand. I've seen no logical explanation of why people are saying you can't do this on tankless.
I have been researching about bridge valves (cannot find them in my country) so the shipping is very expensive. I was about to ask how does the pump stop before burning but by the end of the video you just turn it off manually. I think I'm going to use a solenoid valve (cheaper and I can choose which faucet to warm first whenever I like) instead of the bridge (I control it using Home Assistant) something you can also do with that app probably (scrips or scenes) if you can't just use sonoff devices and the ewelink app . Since you have the bridge valve you can add a flow valve to the pump, so if the flow stop the pump also stops, and even if you turn on the pump and the bridge is still hot it won't allow it to start..
Pump never runs dry; it’s fed directly off the outlet of the water heater. All the bridge valve does is take the cold water in the hot lines and dump it back in the tank
They make a bridge valve with a thermostat, and when the hot water reaches the Spicket, it closes the thermostat no longer allowing it to mix through the cold side, It would be interesting to know if one of these were installed with that style of bridge and just left them constantly plugged in without a smart plug. Would the pump automatically turn off when it was unable to flow through the bridge valve? I had a situation when we got down to -31 windchill and I had pipes freeze between my first and second floor and I thought if I had a circulation pump on with a thermostat mixing valve, I would never have to worry about this ever happening Granite I’ve lived in this house, 16 years and never had this problem. However, we’ve never had a -8 degrees with 31 windchill and I do wanna prevent against it ever happening again. This was the Thursday before Christmas this year. You may be familiar with this cold front. I live in St. Louis.
@@jordandreste5480 I'm no expert but I would think unless the pump itself had some built in shutoff mechanism, then running it constantly with no return path wouldn't be good for it.
@@Krb68691 yeah, I looked into it more they make automatic pumps, and when the flow stops the pump, turns off, basically when the thermostat opens up inside of the bridge, the pump turns on I’m not sure which model this is, but the same company makes one that has a switch for manual and a switch for automatic, they make another model that has only manual I found them on Amazon also
Awesome video. I now have hot water as soon as I need it. It’s even in the cold water line (added bonus) and the hot water heater is always heating my water, electric bill is now through the roof. But hey I have hot water now! 🙄
Awesome It would be great if you connect Alexa. And with a command: Alexa, turn on the boiler/tank, the water star running and you can put that stop after 20-30 minutes automatically after you said that command, so you don’t have to go every time to the app to turn it off
And also i would love to see a video of you explaining whole system operation and pipes around the tankless water heater. Or maybe can anybody just tell me if in the place of recirculation pump installation before it was just a straight pipe from the cold water line?
I was just wondering when did the pump keeps running after the bridge valve senses hot water and closes. If it does shut off how does it know to shut off?
I use motion detectors to determine when to turn on and off my recirculating pump. Walk into the bathroom, the pump turns on for 3 min. More than enough time for hot water to reach the furthest end of the house.
I'm not happy with my circ pump. My hot water is a little faster but now it's the opposite. The cold water is warm for awhile till it flushes out. Now what????
Paul-- good video and I installed the pump like you (pumping out the hot water into the house) and one comfort valve at our kitchen sink-- but its not really helping get the hot water. Does multiple comfort valves actually let enough water recirculate to kick on the flow sensor in the Rinnai and start its production of hot water? Only planned to do two comfort valves. Plus I tried setting the internal settings of the Rinnai heater for a dedicated recirculation but not helping.
FYI-- I added a 2nd comfort valve and the combo of the two valves did create enough flow for the Rinnai to start heating. Now those areas have quick hot water after the pump runs for ~2 minutes, starting the Rinnai, and thus pushes ht water through the comfort valve until hot. Then we turn off the pump cause the hot water is running through the faucets.
I have some questions: How can you push water from the hotline into the cold line, when the cold water line is coming at pressure from the utility provider? - Does this setup mean that your cold water line isn't "cold" anymore?
Did you have any issues with orientation of the pump. Looking at the instructions, you've installed it in the orientation marked (OK) rather than OK. I assume that means NOT OK. Do you have any insight into that?.
Like your setup. My Navien has a built-in pump, saving me that cost. Are those stainless braid flex hoses Home Depot house brand? They have a bad reputation for failing quickly.
I'm pretty upset because the house I just bought has the Navien NPE-240S and not the advanced model with a built in recirculator :( The house seller saved less than $300 on the standard model heater just for me to have to spend a ton of time researching, buying and installing a separate one.
And so as i understood now after the circulation, the cold line will have a hot water in it, and so if u will want cold water you gonna need to dump the hot water. AND if you are using water heater with a tank this water will be not much drinkable and you wont be able to use cold water untill you dump hot water, so this the flaw that i see in this device (bridge valve), can somebody confirm me if i am right? And its would be more feasable having dedicated recirculation line?
Do you run into error codes with your tankless with this setup? I keep hearing other YT videos of ppl saying dont do it unless theres a tankess water heater with built in and can run the correct mode.
Great video, does installing more than one thermal bypass valve work or does it confuse the water heater, I didn't think more than 1 can be installed, thanks!
Hi, Paul thanks great video. Instead of timing the pump, install a flowswitch on the hot water line. Therefore whenever somebody turns on the hot water faucet the pump will run.
Great video, thanks! QUESTION: Can the pump be installed under the SAME sink as the Bridge valve, or does the pump have to be at the hot water heater? Also, are there any issues with the tankless running just a little bit of water so often to charge the lines as they cool down? THANKS!!
Yes you should be able to install pump under the sink as long as the pump is pulling water from the hot water side to engage the TWH to turn on - has to have so many flow units to fire up TWH - your second question - no problems with running the pump - the pump is just that a pump whether in the closed loop state or open state.
Thanks Paul.. So the bridge valve is sending cold water away from the hot side and into the cold side while water heats up? So in other words, it is not that you open the hot side, and get no water until it reaches the right temp? Rather the valve keeps the water hot in all the pipes by circulating the whole time the recirculation pump is on?
My water heater in the middle of the house, so water outlets in all directions. Should I assume putting the bridge in the furthest away (in one direction) will still cycle hot water to all water outlets (including those in the opposite direction)?
Question. If the pump is on, I.e. the timer is set to have the pump on, and the water is above the 95 degree threshold for the crossover/bridge valve to operate, does the pump run even though there is no water flowing?
Do you get instant "hot" water? I just installed a very similar system today and I get instant "warm" water, but it's as if the thermostat at the water diverter is set just a little too cool, it closes off when the water is warm but not hot, so I'm curious what your experience is.
Hello, I'm from Germany. What you're putting in there is a very good part. My question is can you also install it on a Vaillant 246/2-c boiler. With best regards
Not sure if I'd want water in my cold water pipes that was once in my water heater. We have a whole-house water filtration system and I love the fresh, cold water coming out of the faucets.
Im in Western Australia and i have a Rheem instant hot water system. It runs on Natural gas and installed outside mounted to the wall and its pretty good, however as the bathrooms are located on the opposite side of house water wastage waiting for the hot water to heat up huge. I would love to get that installed in my home. Obviously the power requirements are different but im sure a step down power transformer can sort that out.
You may get any 220 v circulator pump and they consume very little power actually- max 1/25 horsepower, from any hardware store. I mean worry not about smart plugs in my opinion.
@@garygrey650 hey thankyou ive only just noticed your reply and to date im still looking at one but will let you know when i get one installed deffinatly
Wait......while its running through the check valve over to the cold side, where's that water going? Is it back-flowing into the city pipes? Then when you turn the cold water on it should come out hot for awhile, right?
Seeing that CPVC scares me. I had all mine replaced with pex tubing. Great install video too. Do you find your gas bill quite a bit more because of the pump running?
@@paulsecondi2053 Sounds good. I have a Rinaii and I think I'll install this same setup. Watts seems to have the most reliable kit. Appreciate the video!
Thank you for the video! I have a generic question: it was mentioned in this video that when OP first installed the tankless water heater, everything was working fine, and he got continuous hot water. But then he mentioned when his kids got older, they would have to wait for hot water. So does that mean that the standalone tankless water heater only works well when there are only a couple people using hot water? So if there are multiple people using water, then an external recirculation pump is needed? I currently have just tankless water heater with internal recirculation, do I still need a bridge valve at further sink upstairs?
bridge valve is set to 94 degrees. takes about 20 mins for mine to cycle hot water to to faucet. the bridge valves tend to freeze up with hard water systems. I keep a spare to replace mine about once per year. I soak the old one in vinegar for a day and it is ready to use next year. didn't include the cost of the alexa... so about the same as the units with the timer. I don't see how the tankless system saves anything if it running all the time when the pump is running?
Thanks, nice video and explanation..I am about to get the mac daddy Rinnai which comes with recirc and crossover valve. My question to you is how much does the crossover valve create an issue by warming your cold water supply? Can it be blown off pretty quickly?
you won't need those grunphos valves at each sink, one at the furthest is enough to keep the trunk line charged and the branches just access the trunk for a very short amount of cold. Waste of money to add one at each location.
Paul, did you have any issues with leaks? I bought the same pump on Amazon hoping it would be an easy install, but it leaked with the provided plumber's tape and again when I reconnected with pipe dope. The pipe was deburred etc. correctly as well.
You do need to use pipe dope and pipe tape and put it on tight. If if did it again i would see if i could put a rubber washer in there. May not be possible though.
Great explanation how that valve works. At first I thought it was using the cold pipes to recirculate the hot water, which made me think that now you had no cold water. But your explanation helped me understand. Thanks.
I like your honest, knowledgable and straight forward approach in your video, sharing your pertinent observations and experience like we are your friends, not boring and not pretending to be a TV show with bad acting or waste of time "I'm gonna talk about" or ridiculous logos and intros and never getting to the point. You're great!
Nice dyi idea. I would highly highly suggest you put some type of support under that pump as you have the weight of the pump and hose on that shark bite fitting. As cool as those shark bite fittings are, having it how you have it, it's a ticking tune bomb waiting to pull apart and flood that room.
Also fasten that bridge valve to the cabinet wall, pipes and hoses need to be supported as the stress is what weakens them then eventually coming home to a flooded bathroom. That is why pipe supporting is plumbing code.
Thanks for the informative video on how to save money on water 👍
Very good explanation of the bridge valve or thermal valve. I’ve listen to many TH-cam’s on this and it becomes very simple after I’m acquainted with it in the circulating pump but your explanation under the sink is the best I’ve heard. Plus you mentioned you can use the bridge valves on multiple areas which I wasn’t sure if.
Recirculating systems on a timer are awesome! I would never own a home without it.
Nice video....Great idea for the circulation pump. In our situation part of the house was serviced by the circulation pump but not the kitchen (where we mostly need it far more often). I put this on the most distant sink and poof....the other 2 sinks that are inline are hot immediately as well. Our circulation pump has a timer or you can let the self-learning program do the job. For the most part the self-learning is working well enough for now. We unplug both the circulation pump and turn off the breaker when we are gone for an extended period.
Hi Paul, thanks for this posting. I also recently installed the same pump, only the stainless version. The system works fantastic however I wanted to share some more information for anyone reading these posts. I have a Rinnai Tankless heater, with the circulation pump on the cold (inlet) side of the heater, and I have two under-sink Taco Hot-Link Valves, one in the 2nd floor bathroom and one under the 1st floor Kitchen Sink. What I did notice is that this pump (located in the basement) does not have enough force to overcome the head of the 2nd floor, and satisfy the water heaters flow switch. Once I added the 1st floor valve (which I was planning to do all along), the flow was able to satisfy the water heater. Bear in mind that there was and is flow to the 2nd floor, just not enough to energize the heater by itself. This pump is rated for 8-GPM's, which is twice the flow that should satisfy the WH, but not if only pushing up to the 2nd floor due to the head. That being said, with both valves installed, the water heater will shut down as soon as the 1st floor Taco valve closes due to hot water being present, even if the 2nd floor is still flowing. All that said, the system works fantastic and provides hot water to both floors. I also installed a smart plug and just asks Alexa to start the pump anytime I need instant hot water.
Head. It’s recirculating in a closed loop. Does head pressure matter.
There's no head pressure resistance because there's equal water column pressure helping things along the downward journey.
Hi Pat. Which Rinnai do you have? I installed a pump yesterday but it does not activate the unit.
@@adm369 I have an older Rinnai, model # R75-LSi. I installed the pump on the inlet side of the tankless WH, and I have two of the bypass valves, one on the first floor kitchen sink and one on the second floor bathroom sink.
@@foypat thank you!
Hi Paul, thanks for your video which helped me to install a recirculation pump with my tankless. This Bokywox pump worked with ny tankless, before I purchased watts pump and it didn't work with my tankless but this one does work when connected with watts thermal valve under the sink. I connected it with digital timer that run every one hour for only two minutes from 7:00 am to 9:00 pm and it work fine and give faster hot water. Connecting it with smart plug like what you did will be a better choice if you want to control it with your mobile or with voice command which I may do in the future.
Anyway I just wanted to thank you and to confirm this setup work with my tankless.
Great to hear. One update regarding my pump. I switched to a stainless steel pump head so no rust could be introduced into the system, as one reader mentioned.
Answered my question, yes I can install multiple bridge valves in the system. Great video, thanks!
How did the multiple bridge valve setup work out for you? Is it better than a single a bridge valve?
The pump will most likely take the shortest path then I guess therm valve will close and then next open one will cycle.....and so on. I would be curious to find out.
These recirculating pumps work awesome!
Thanks for the detailed video. I added our pump under the sink and used Kasa (TPLINK) smart plug. You can set a Smart Action to always turn the plug off after xx minutes.
that is a great feature!
Problem with Kasa is that you can only have 3 Smart Actions. #technologyfail
That’s a great explanation, Mr. Garrison
The Smart plug is a game changer. Thanks!
Sir, I saw some similar videos and no one example, how a bridge valve works. Your video is in-depth and more informative.
Thank you
I was thinking exactly the same, did you get a reply?
Great. Thanks for sharing. Where should we place the circulation pump? Cold pipe before entering the tankless heater?
I had a problem understanding how the bridge valve worked. Kind of a simple genius solution. You gave a great explanation. I'm calling the plumber soon. Thanks, Ken
Great info we need some in Jamaica to use like now when we are having a cold front and older folks can't manage the cold water thanks for yr video bye
Dude! I love you for this! You really explained the hell out of this and it was super super easy to understand if the viewer watched to the end! Absolutely phenomenally helpful!!👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
I knew I wasn't clever. Awesome video thanks for sharing this was stupid useful even though I wasn't looking for it. I saw the title and thought damn it's a thing. And should be probably more common then just now seeing it is. Cause with an rv this is stupid useful on limited water. Thanks a bunch
I wanted to throw a comment here - We built a 2900sqft single story home this past year - builder stated the Tankless Water Heater (TWH) was great and we would love it - In our previous home of 15 years we had a 60 gallon gas water heater and was great no problems - Anyway house completed 4 months ago and we moved in - Sooo guess what - we have hated the TWH - we built a large 1 story home and the TWH is on the other side of the house in the crawl space - takes about 4 minutes every morning to get hot water to the Master Bath... wife takes shower at 530 am and myself at 630 AM - so of course the water cools down in that hour and we waste soooo much water.
We saw this video and was so excited and did the install - simple enough - bought the pump in this video only upgrading to the stainless steel housing, bought the Watts under sink connector off Amazon which BTW gets bad long term reviews, Gosund smart plug...1 shark bite union connector and 1 shark bite 18" hose connector - total parts under $200 - Time to install everything about 2 hours - Verdict - FAIL - noticed no pre improvement in hot water - still wasted same amount of water and took same amount of time to get hot water to MB.
BUT - guess what - IM now loving my TWH the most since moving in to our new home.
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We returned the Watts thermo valve back to Amazon ($62) - went to Lowes and bought (3) 20 feet sections of 3/4 PEX($36), 2 pex Tee ($5), 2 pex couplings($5), 1 shark bite check valve($8), roll of 25' plastic hanging strap, small box flat head nails, a crimp tool/pex cutter/ crimp connector combo kit off Amazon ($28) - so total of about $92 - additional items we bought was 20 pieces of 3/4" foam tubes to insulate hot water pipes. ---- So total amount was still under $300. We had a quote from the plumber that did the plumbing in our home and he quoted us $1800 to do the work.
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Spent about 1.5 hours under the house running the 3/4" pex from Master bath back to TWH adding insulation and hanging with the straps as we went - we placed a tee connector on the cold water side just before coming into water heater and installed check valve before the TEE - so now I have a complete hot water loop where in the morning I can tell Alexa to turn on hot water and my hot water is now super heated because the pump cuts on , causing the TWH to cut on, heats the water then recirculates back through the TWH again heating the hot water again and again.
I now loose very little water in the morning and Im assuming that Im not using as much gas as its reheating the warm/hot water again and again- Im talking I turn on my hot water and within 10 seconds I can take a hot shower ( has to bleed out the cold water in the 1/2" pipe coming from the 3/4" pipe) - Frigging nice - I mean NICE.
Just as a background - never did any plumping like this before - my wife and I are both nurses - but I am also very mechanically inclined and never pay to do stuff I can do myself.
Oh yeah - the smart plug works great and I now have the pump timed to come on at 525am - off at 530 , on at 625am and off at 630 and of course can tell Alexa to turn on at demand - not perfect but not wasting all that water either.
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I write all this to encourage anyone that it really wasn't that hard nor time consuming - that is if you have a 1 story home and have access to your crawl space - if you have a slab foundation or 2 story then dont think its to easy. lol - I say time consuming - we had to make a few different trips back to Lowes because we forgot to get the check valve one time and we misaligned a shark bite connector the other time and needed that little orange $2 part to separate the shark bite connection to recut a little straighter pex cut. The Amazon cutters were not the best quality.
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one more point I will add - when we received the Watts connector from Amazon the plastic clam packaging had been opened before and lots of tape keeping it shut, so its assumable that someone had did the swappo and returned a bad unit but stating it was good - so maybe that's why I didn't have favorable results such as the maker of this video.
Good luck and stay safe and remember to always be nice to others - we need more nice people in this world of ours.
Its sounds like you may have installed the bridge value backwards. Running a cold water recirculating line doesn't seem to be doing anything different from what happens if the bridge value was installed the right way, as the cold water would be forced back up the pipe toward the street, hit the T value leading to the hot water and then as the hot water system is using cold water would go back into the hot water system. Thereby doing exactly the same as your new return cold water pipe. No plumber, but that would explain the no change you were experiencing when first installed as on the hot side you would have the check value that would never allow the water to flow to the cold water side and would be effectively the same as not having a bridge value at all.
@@westwoodandrew LOL - yeah that would have been the most easy fix and would have saved some time and aggravation but I installed the bridge valve correctly and checked again when un installing. So not sure why I didn't have a positive outcome unless it was due to my last point in my above narrative. I will say running a dedicated hot water line alleviates any future issues, no bridge valve to go bad ( Look at the reviews on Amazon for the Watts and the TACO). Used 2 Tees and 1 continuous straight PEX. If you draw it out its one big loop ... It works great, little more time but definitely worth it.
The problem was the single value was not demanding enough water flow to ignite your TWH. If you had added a second value at a different sink location, the flow rate would have increased and ignited your TWH. Having a return line is great but for those that don't want or can't do a return line, add a 2nd value at a different sink location and your problem is solved!
@@reb1225 REB, What is the thing you refer to here (and in other posts) as a "value"? (sorry, i'm an idiot w/ this stuff) Obviously this point you make is a very important one since if the TWH fails to ignite then the whole thing is a fail... and your solutions sounds simple enough... I just don't know what it is, Lol. Thanks in advance for the help!!!
Hi Paul, thanks for taking the time to create this video and share your experience, greatly appreciated! I am shopping outdoor tankless units and was debating if I needed a built in recirculating pump, which is quite expensive. Your solution is far cheaper and more practical for older home piping configurations. I love the added bonus of the Alexa integration idea too! Nicely done!
Glad this came in handy for you! Thanks for the feedback.
@@paulsecondi2053 had to give your video a thumbs down because in it you promote a certain company that supports child kidnapping and rape by ICE... as well as union busting and destroying small american businesses with anticompetitive practices.
Thanks for great video. I just finished similar install with my 14 year old Bosch tankless water heater. Everything works well. Set up my smart plug schedule to run the pump for 3 minutes every hour 7 am to 8 pm. So far so good.
I did the same thing but I tried to go from 6am to 9pm and you can only set 30 schedules on a Gosund. I wish they allowed you to schedule more.
@@brandonkarn6675 Try a different brand. I have Feit from costco
@@josefbaikal Thank you. I just called their customer service and they told me that I can only do up to 4 schedules. Is that true? I would like to turn it on/off for 3 minutes every hour from 6-10pm.
@@brandonkarn6675 15 max for Feit brand. I just checked in the app. You can alway do a manual on / off once or twice a day or use Alexa to add one or two routines for scheduling. This way you can have your schedule.
@@josefbaikal Thanks. I was looking for more than 30, i'll stick with Gosund for now until I find something different.
Thanks Paul.... Greatly appreciated👍
Paul good video after seeing your video I also use Alexa to control the pump I did one thing different; I tell "alexa turn on hot water", smart switch turns on pump for 2 1/2 minutes (in my case on a very cold morning it takes a little over 2 minutes to heat up the hot water pipe. I found that sometimes alexa did not turn off the pump so i use the gosund app to detect the pump is on and turns it off after 3 minutes (incase alexa had a hiccup and did not turn off pump). So when i get ready for a shower "alexa turn on hot water" Alexa responds "I'll put on a pot" then 2 1/2 minutes latter alexa responds on all alexa devices ""water is hot" latter when my wife is ready for her shower she repeats the process. Again thanks for your video had a lot of good information
I did not know Gosund has an automatic timed turn off feature? is this correct?
@@paulsecondi2053 in the smart life app i created a scene that detects "if" the pump was turned on (smart life app detected the switch being turned on" (then) a timer is started and after the time delay smart life will turn off the switch if it is still on, i use the scene as a backup just n case alexa had a hiccup and did not turn off the switch. The alexa app has a shorter time then what i set in smart life (i set smart lift 30 sec longer than alexa
When you create a scene select "when the device status changes"
@@albertguerini7160 That is so fabulous, I just set this up!! Thank you! Question how do you edit a current scene? I can't seem to get back into the one I just set up to adjust the run time...
To edit a scene select the scene and the steps are shown select the step you want to change
Thanks Paul for this.
To share my experience... I used the Grundfos Comfort System (pump plus their "comfort valves" - which are the same as the bridge values) since 2005 with a Tankless. Like you, I used a smart receptacle to control the pump (X10 given when I was doing this it was pretty much the only option). But, the pump Grundfos provided didn't create enough flow, in my case 0.5GPM, to trigger the tankless to fire (the Grundfos system is design for water tanks, so I was trying to hack it for tankless since there were no good tankless recirc options without a dedicated return line on the market in ~2004-2005).
So this meant, when I first set it up the pump would just circulate cold water to the faucets! :-( But I discovered on my tankless it was possible to "fake" the 0.5GPM flow switch, i.e. cause the Tankless to fire even if the flow rate was 0,5GPM flow, it would then fire, and the pump would pump the hot water via the comfort vales and hey presto... hot water at the faucets.
Then in 2018 I had to change my tankless. My new tankless is far more digital so there was no easy way to fake the 0.5GPM. So for the past 2 years I've been without DHW recirc. Then I found this system www.fasterhotwater.com/Tankless%20circulation%20pump.shtml. I just purchased it and will be installing shortly.
This system has a more powerful pump, so it will create much more than >0.5GPM, which will trigger the tankless to fire, *AND* get the water to the faucets way quicker than the Grundfos. Also this system uses the same comfort valves, so no need to switch them out (in fact bridge values used by FasterHotWater are made for them by Grundfos). Lastly, and this is the big advantage, this pump is triggered by any flow >0.17 gpm (about the flow rate when a drip becomes a stream). So opening and closing *any* hot water faucet for a second or two, will trigger the recirc system pump that will trigger the boiler. And 15-45seconds later (depends on how far the bridge valves are from the tankless), there is hot water at the faucets with bridge valves. Once the hot water arrives as the bridge valves, and these close, the flow goes to zero, and the pump turns off automatically (no deadheading, no timer needed). You can also control the pump via a smart receptacle (which I will also be doing).
I'll try to remember to report back here once I've installed to share whether the reality lives up to this description! :-)
Did the www.fasterhotwater.com/Tankless%20circulation%20pump.shtml work for you? and how is the experience? Considering to buy it. Thank you
@@pranayshah44 Sorry haven't installed it yet...
And the company is very good to deal with. Answered all my questions promptly... I just called them. The pump arrived very quickly.
FWIW the pump is a Grundfos so I have no doubt it will work.
I installed the faster hot water system several years ago and love it. I have a Rennai tankless (for 20 yrs) that requires 0.5 gpm to turn on.
My problem was that my dishwasher did not trigger the water heater, so it was trying to wash dishes with cold water.
I don't like the timer based recirc pumps because they run only on the timer - too long or at the wrong times - and not automatic.
The faster hot water system with their flow monitor is triggered with a very low flow (good for dishwasher), so any hot water use turns on the pump.
Because it is on-demand, the pump and thus the water heater only runs when needed. No smart plug or timer or manual switch involved.
I don't like the idea of a pump running when the bridge valve closes, so I use a return line (use a check valve on the return).
The control can be programmed to run just enough to fill the main trunk with hot water (60 seconds for my house). Any hot water use restarts this timer.
I don't see why this system would not work with any tankless water heater. Some tankless models include a recirc pump, but the key for me was the flow monitor.
fasterhotwater.com/DRS%20-%20T%20coupon-code.shtml
You should read Pat Foy comments from 3 weeks ago. He was having the same issue and added a 2nd value at a different sink location to increase the flow rate which would ignite the TWH. In Pat's situation, his TWH is in the basement, he originally place one comfort value on the 2nd floor (furthest sink for the TWH) and that would not ignite the TWH. However, he added a 2nd comfort value to a sink on the 1st floor which increased the flow rate enough to ignite the TWH. In Pat's comments, this worked perfectly and he gets instant hot water on the first and second floor. So keep the pump you have and add a second value to increase the flow rate and problem solved.
Trying to wrap my small brain around this one. When I ask for hot water at a fixture, the TWH fires and takes forever to get there. With this system, I ask for hot water and the pump turns on along with the TWH and hot water arrives. How is the pump getting the hot water there faster? I like the idea of no timers or fancy plugs, I'm low tech old school. Thanks for listening.
You are the man! Recently i moved into a new home that has these tankless water heater. Takes forever to get hot water to the master bath. I was looking for a recirculating pump from Rinnai and it was just too many parts to buy and too expensive.
This solution is much simpler and easier to install.
Great to hear this information helped!
Yes there wasn't much info on how to handle this issue so I thought I would do this to help out. Thanks for the sharing of your situation!
did it work for Rinnai tankless water heater?
@@lsna4 You can make any pump work with a TWH by adding additional under sink values to increase the water flow rate. The problem with a single under sink value is that it does not demand enough water flow to ignite your TWH. By adding a 2nd under sink value, when your pump kicks on at your set/designated time, the water demand (flow rate) for two values is enough to ignite the TWH. Problem solved!
@@reb1225 do you need any sort of special return lines? My builder cautioned me about installing this type of pump? 🧐
I have been using a similar setup at my place and it's nice but I get hot water coming out from the Cold side at times. This is a great alternative to the expensive returned piping.
Great video! cpvc scares me. I had all of my piping replaced with pen tubing.
I started this way, but save yourself a lot of waste and aggravation and get motion sensors and ditch the timers. Only runs when someone enters those rooms and turns off in 5 minutes, all I needed for the water to be hot in all locations with a dedicated recirc line.
Hi Paul, Thanks for the video..I already have a hot water reccirculating system installed, using a Watts pump...after viewng this video, I plan on adding a Gosung smart plug. Did you consider replacing your old water heater with a heat pump water heater instead of the gas fired tankless unit?
Funny part at 4 minute mark, laughing so hard at whom ever was gonna get some hot water had to wait for your great video to end to be able to finish their shower. The things we won't do to make a good video.
Do you have a parts list ? Want to copy the set up on my older tankless but found it difficult to follow what parts you were using. Appreciate a quick response as I live I’m so cal and need to get on the drought wagon.
Paul, Thank your you for your video, it's very helpful. My tankless heater is outside the house and I think this BoxyWox pump is rated for indoor use only. So would it be OK to install this pump on the incoming hot line under the faucet which is farthest from the pump. I thinking it should work and my pump will be protected from the outdoor weather. Also what is the brand name of the smart outlet plug with an app that you show in your video.
Great video. Thanks for the education and making me decide on what to purchase.
Put some links to the products you've found (you can even put affiliate links and make a little something). Thanks
Paul, great video! I installed a Noritz gas tankless gas water heater, model NRC98DV (gq-c2857ws-ff us) indoor installation.
The instructions for installing a recirculation pump requires a maximum of 2 GPM. it also says that a pump control signal is the preferred method to control the recirculation pump. For pumps larger than 85w, a relay connection must be used. If the pump control signal is not used, an Aquastat may be used to control the pump. I had planned to use a smart plug to control the pump run time, what do you recommend?
Bob Genzel
Best advice on this situation thank you very much!!
Thanks for the video. I just starting researching this topic. One question is we have a water softener on just the hot water supply. This will now put the salt water into the cold water lines. At the kitchen sink we would need a different source of water. Question two is how much does the water heater run? It seems the whole sales pitch for the tankless is that it doesn't run much unless you ask for hot water. With this system is the water heater running all the time the pump is on or a lot of the day. Also our Rinnai doesn't seem to modulate very well. You can not just put a low flow through it and have it work. It needs a good flow for it to kick on. Not sure if that pump would trigger it. Thanks
But what if you want cold water when the pump is turned on.. will it be hot water coming out the faucet when you wanted cold? I get you said the device under the sink will switch when the temp gets warm enough, so does that mean it will start out warm/hot but then get cold?
It's important to know you should only put in 1 bridge valve on certain tankless heaters. Rinnai for example often have built in recirculating pumps and explicitly state to only use one bridge valve or what they call a thermal bypass valve. Seemingly the same thing.
Hello, this is exactly what I need for our cottage, Would you have a list of the products and where you purchased from. Thanks
Paul thanks this vídeos is very good.
Question. How does the water recirculate through the cold water pipes when they are under pressure?? You can’t push water back into the city water supply and you can’t compress water. So how does that work??? Also I’m assuming the pump allows water to go through it when it isn’t running. Correct?
Thanks for this video. I’m going to give it a try!!
My understanding is that the cold water in the pipes is circulating but no new water from the main inlet pipe is entering the pipes. So the pressure inside remains the same.
Do you necessarily need the recirculation pump to go with the bridge valves?
Thank you for this helpful video!
Good video but you don't have to put the pump on a timer they're designed to run all the time. I've had mine running every day for the last four or five years and it is still running.
How much of a expense can leaving the pump on cost. Yearly?
So the pump runs even when there is no water flowing? As when the water in the line is already to temp but no one is using any hot water?
Great Video Paul! Question? I wonder if I can just use the bridge valve only to circulate cold water without using the pump?
I mean I would get the pump and the bridge valve but just wondering? Thank You!
Hi Paul, I think your fix is well thought out. I showed this to my plumber to see if he would do it. This was his reply,
"I had a feeling you were going to send me that, I’ve put a lot of those in but not for a tankless. You can’t just slap a recirc pump on a tankless without a storage tank. Recirc pump goes on hot water tank outlet, crossover tee goes under furthest sink, and tankless out goes to storage tank inlet. If you don’t install it this way, you void the warranty."
I have since asked him how he would suggest doing it.
Get another plumber, he's using scare tactics. That answer he gave you is standard speak for "I don't want the customer to tell me what to do, plus I don't want to learn anything new". You can check out the different videos Rinnai puts out regarding recirculation. Their newer heaters have built in re-circulation pumps, but, If your heater doesn't have one, Paul's method is a great low cost way to approach it. The Thermal By-Pass valve is installed to allow water to your faucet once the temperature is reached. The Chili Pepper recirculation pump (similar in price to the Grundfoss) comes with a button to activate the pump for a few seconds so you don't have to schedule anything. I have nothing to do with Chili Pepper, but I'm looking to improvise a low cost way to get the same result.
@@xr500t Hi Paul, I since received this from Rinnai after asking them about my plumber's suggestion about a storage tank and voiding of warranty.
They also added a pdf of installation instructions and parts list. It's very similar to your method.
Hi Michael,
@@mikebarber1799 it looks like the reply from Rinnai is cut off. I'm very interested in what they said. I am boggled by the number of people saying you can't install these on a tankless heater. The heater has no idea if you are recirculating water or if it's going out the tap. It just sees it as flow demand. I've seen no logical explanation of why people are saying you can't do this on tankless.
Dude you are awesome !!! That’s exactly what I was looking for. Great step by step video.
I have been researching about bridge valves (cannot find them in my country) so the shipping is very expensive.
I was about to ask how does the pump stop before burning but by the end of the video you just turn it off manually.
I think I'm going to use a solenoid valve (cheaper and I can choose which faucet to warm first whenever I like) instead of the bridge (I control it using Home Assistant) something you can also do with that app probably (scrips or scenes) if you can't just use sonoff devices and the ewelink app .
Since you have the bridge valve you can add a flow valve to the pump, so if the flow stop the pump also stops, and even if you turn on the pump and the bridge is still hot it won't allow it to start..
When the Bridge valve closes does the pump shutoff automatically ? Or Continue running with no flow through the pump ?
Pump never runs dry; it’s fed directly off the outlet of the water heater.
All the bridge valve does is take the cold water in the hot lines and dump it back in the tank
They make a bridge valve with a thermostat, and when the hot water reaches the Spicket, it closes the thermostat no longer allowing it to mix through the cold side,
It would be interesting to know if one of these were installed with that style of bridge and just left them constantly plugged in without a smart plug. Would the pump automatically turn off when it was unable to flow through the bridge valve?
I had a situation when we got down to -31 windchill and I had pipes freeze between my first and second floor and I thought if I had a circulation pump on with a thermostat mixing valve, I would never have to worry about this ever happening
Granite I’ve lived in this house, 16 years and never had this problem. However, we’ve never had a -8 degrees with 31 windchill and I do wanna prevent against it ever happening again.
This was the Thursday before Christmas this year. You may be familiar with this cold front. I live in
St. Louis.
@@jordandreste5480 I'm no expert but I would think unless the pump itself had some built in shutoff mechanism, then running it constantly with no return path wouldn't be good for it.
@@Krb68691 yeah, I looked into it more they make automatic pumps, and when the flow stops the pump, turns off, basically when the thermostat opens up inside of the bridge, the pump turns on
I’m not sure which model this is, but the same company makes one that has a switch for manual and a switch for automatic, they make another model that has only manual
I found them on Amazon also
How about a flow switch on the return pump?
Awesome video. I now have hot water as soon as I need it. It’s even in the cold water line (added bonus) and the hot water heater is always heating my water, electric bill is now through the roof. But hey I have hot water now! 🙄
when the water stops, does the pump continue to pump? won't that burn it up? a parts list would be awesome.
Awesome
It would be great if you connect Alexa. And with a command: Alexa, turn on the boiler/tank, the water star running and you can put that stop after 20-30 minutes automatically after you said that command, so you don’t have to go every time to the app to turn it off
Great video! thanks! Question, do you need a pump to have hot water faster just by using the Bridge valve?
Will the pump turn on once the sink is turned on or only if you turn the app on ?
And also i would love to see a video of you explaining whole system operation and pipes around the tankless water heater. Or maybe can anybody just tell me if in the place of recirculation pump installation before it was just a straight pipe from the cold water line?
I was just wondering when did the pump keeps running after the bridge valve senses hot water and closes. If it does shut off how does it know to shut off?
I use motion detectors to determine when to turn on and off my recirculating pump. Walk into the bathroom, the pump turns on for 3 min. More than enough time for hot water to reach the furthest end of the house.
I needed this to be "On Demand". What is the name of the smart plug and the model?
I'm not happy with my circ pump.
My hot water is a little faster but now it's the opposite. The cold water is warm for awhile till it flushes out. Now what????
Paul-- good video and I installed the pump like you (pumping out the hot water into the house) and one comfort valve at our kitchen sink-- but its not really helping get the hot water. Does multiple comfort valves actually let enough water recirculate to kick on the flow sensor in the Rinnai and start its production of hot water? Only planned to do two comfort valves. Plus I tried setting the internal settings of the Rinnai heater for a dedicated recirculation but not helping.
FYI-- I added a 2nd comfort valve and the combo of the two valves did create enough flow for the Rinnai to start heating. Now those areas have quick hot water after the pump runs for ~2 minutes, starting the Rinnai, and thus pushes ht water through the comfort valve until hot. Then we turn off the pump cause the hot water is running through the faucets.
With regards to the Bridge Value:
Wouldn’t this valve build pressure on the cold water pipes? Eventually leading to leaks?
I have some questions:
How can you push water from the hotline into the cold line, when the cold water line is coming at pressure from the utility provider?
- Does this setup mean that your cold water line isn't "cold" anymore?
Did you have any issues with orientation of the pump. Looking at the instructions, you've installed it in the orientation marked (OK) rather than OK. I assume that means NOT OK. Do you have any insight into that?.
so you don't get cold water anymore?
So if I install these on the sink lines will it make shower hot too?
Like your setup. My Navien has a built-in pump, saving me that cost. Are those stainless braid flex hoses Home Depot house brand? They have a bad reputation for failing quickly.
I'm pretty upset because the house I just bought has the Navien NPE-240S and not the advanced model with a built in recirculator :(
The house seller saved less than $300 on the standard model heater just for me to have to spend a ton of time researching, buying and installing a separate one.
And so as i understood now after the circulation, the cold line will have a hot water in it, and so if u will want cold water you gonna need to dump the hot water. AND if you are using water heater with a tank this water will be not much drinkable and you wont be able to use cold water untill you dump hot water, so this the flaw that i see in this device (bridge valve), can somebody confirm me if i am right? And its would be more feasable having dedicated recirculation line?
If the pump is off, does the hot water still go through the pump?
yes it will..
Do you run into error codes with your tankless with this setup? I keep hearing other YT videos of ppl saying dont do it unless theres a tankess water heater with built in and can run the correct mode.
It it runs 24/7 it only cost about $20 dollars a year. But that smart plug is an awesome idea
Great video, does installing more than one thermal bypass valve work or does it confuse the water heater, I didn't think more than 1 can be installed, thanks!
No the system will just pump water where ever there is that thermal by pass valve.
Will this pump set up get hot water evenly and fast to each faucet
how does it push against 62# of street pressure on the cold side. doesnt make sense to me
What happens when the pumped hot water meets the cold pressurised mains water, where does it go?
Hi, Paul thanks great video. Instead of timing the pump, install a flowswitch on the hot water line. Therefore whenever somebody turns on the hot water faucet the pump will run.
Great video, thanks! QUESTION: Can the pump be installed under the SAME sink as the Bridge valve, or does the pump have to be at the hot water heater? Also, are there any issues with the tankless running just a little bit of water so often to charge the lines as they cool down? THANKS!!
Yes you should be able to install pump under the sink as long as the pump is pulling water from the hot water side to engage the TWH to turn on - has to have so many flow units to fire up TWH - your second question - no problems with running the pump - the pump is just that a pump whether in the closed loop state or open state.
can you adjust the on temp in bridge valve? Or what is it set at?
Thanks Paul.. So the bridge valve is sending cold water away from the hot side and into the cold side while water heats up? So in other words, it is not that you open the hot side, and get no water until it reaches the right temp? Rather the valve keeps the water hot in all the pipes by circulating the whole time the recirculation pump is on?
That is correct.
My water heater in the middle of the house, so water outlets in all directions. Should I assume putting the bridge in the furthest away (in one direction) will still cycle hot water to all water outlets (including those in the opposite direction)?
Question. If the pump is on, I.e. the timer is set to have the pump on, and the water is above the 95 degree threshold for the crossover/bridge valve to operate, does the pump run even though there is no water flowing?
Can the pump withstand running when there is no water flow?
Do you get instant "hot" water? I just installed a very similar system today and I get instant "warm" water, but it's as if the thermostat at the water diverter is set just a little too cool, it closes off when the water is warm but not hot, so I'm curious what your experience is.
Hello, I'm from Germany. What you're putting in there is a very good part. My question is can you also install it on a Vaillant 246/2-c boiler. With best regards
Not sure if I'd want water in my cold water pipes that was once in my water heater. We have a whole-house water filtration system and I love the fresh, cold water coming out of the faucets.
Im in Western Australia and i have a Rheem instant hot water system. It runs on Natural gas and installed outside mounted to the wall and its pretty good, however as the bathrooms are located on the opposite side of house water wastage waiting for the hot water to heat up huge. I would love to get that installed in my home. Obviously the power requirements are different but im sure a step down power transformer can sort that out.
You may get any 220 v circulator pump and they consume very little power actually- max 1/25 horsepower, from any hardware store. I mean worry not about smart plugs in my opinion.
@@garygrey650 hey thankyou ive only just noticed your reply and to date im still looking at one but will let you know when i get one installed deffinatly
Wait......while its running through the check valve over to the cold side, where's that water going? Is it back-flowing into the city pipes? Then when you turn the cold water on it should come out hot for awhile, right?
But now don't you have to wait for cold water?
So i imagine your not going to have very cold water because you're using the cold water line for recirculation. Am i right?
Paul, where do you buy the components for your setup?
Is this why my cold water always warm and doesn’t seem to get hot?
Seeing that CPVC scares me. I had all mine replaced with pex tubing. Great install video too. Do you find your gas bill quite a bit more because of the pump running?
Not at all. I have had zero issues with this system since it was installed. 2 years now. Love it.
@@paulsecondi2053 Sounds good. I have a Rinaii and I think I'll install this same setup. Watts seems to have the most reliable kit. Appreciate the video!
Thank you for the video! I have a generic question: it was mentioned in this video that when OP first installed the tankless water heater, everything was working fine, and he got continuous hot water. But then he mentioned when his kids got older, they would have to wait for hot water. So does that mean that the standalone tankless water heater only works well when there are only a couple people using hot water? So if there are multiple people using water, then an external recirculation pump is needed?
I currently have just tankless water heater with internal recirculation, do I still need a bridge valve at further sink upstairs?
I am unfamiliar with the internal recirculation valve or how it's activated to get hot water throughout the house.
bridge valve is set to 94 degrees. takes about 20 mins for mine to cycle hot water to to faucet. the bridge valves tend to freeze up with hard water systems. I keep a spare to replace mine about once per year. I soak the old one in vinegar for a day and it is ready to use next year. didn't include the cost of the alexa... so about the same as the units with the timer. I don't see how the tankless system saves anything if it running all the time when the pump is running?
Thanks, nice video and explanation..I am about to get the mac daddy Rinnai which comes with recirc and crossover valve. My question to you is how much does the crossover valve create an issue by warming your cold water supply? Can it be blown off pretty quickly?
No issues, maybe 2 seconds to clear the line. Great question!
you won't need those grunphos valves at each sink, one at the furthest is enough to keep the trunk line charged and the branches just access the trunk for a very short amount of cold. Waste of money to add one at each location.
Do you have a link where I can buy this? It would be nice if you put it in the video description for everyone else too.
Here in the UK we call this a secondary hot water system. But we would never use a heating circulator. All brass pumps will cost you at least £200.
Paul, did you have any issues with leaks? I bought the same pump on Amazon hoping it would be an easy install, but it leaked with the provided plumber's tape and again when I reconnected with pipe dope. The pipe was deburred etc. correctly as well.
You do need to use pipe dope and pipe tape and put it on tight. If if did it again i would see if i could put a rubber washer in there. May not be possible though.
@@paulsecondi2053 Thanks! Using pipe tape with pipe dope did the trick today! Had to go tight and past tight ... finally no leaks!
Great to hear!
Does the pump need to run continuously while using hot water?
No..
Where did you purchase the pump and bridge valve? can you provide a link?