My theory is that the phoenix only ever possessed Jean and Madelyn only ever had a memory of being possessed. That’s why Madelyn wasn’t able to use the phoenix to survive Genosha but Jean was able to use it to defeat Sinister.
I agree. If the Phoenix had only ever possessed Madelyn, Jean shouldn't have any lingering embers or connection to it. It's possible the switch happened during the original series but it imo, it had to be after Phoenix.
I agree to me that proves Maddy was never Phoenix. Phoenix was Jean Grey. If it had ever possessed Maddy, she would have survived the massacre. I also liked how it appeared that Maddy's power started to appear as pink while Jean's remained blue.
The phoenix is constantly working to preserve Jean because she is its ideal host. It totally makes sense than that she saved Jean and not Madyln. Great catch!
The Phoenix saving Jean then immediately “leaving” could be a story point later. Phoenix is now a separate identity/consciousness/personality within Jean’s mind. It imprinted on her (because of her strength and her powers) and now a copy of the Phoenix is always a separate personality within Jean. It surfaces to save itself from death, but now that it’s awakened, it wants more control. Jean will have to deal with literal split-personality disorder. Jean, Phoenix, even Madelyn, they’re all now separate personalities that live within her mind, and the battle over which personality is truly her would be an excellent storyline for the show to pursue. Jean is the rule follower, Madelyn is a little more loose, and Phoenix follows only its own desires.
Believe it or not, this video made me like the Phoenix moment so much better as it adds an additional layer to this identity story, and we never know what they'll pull next from the various Phoenix stories and what they could try to do with it to build upon this appearance. The great thing about media is all of us consume it in our own way and what resonates with one of us may never do so with another, but that's what's so great about the diversity of life and the fact that we are constantly changing and evolving and learning from one another.
Hey Ryan and ScreenCrush, I love this conversation! You should start a podcast dissecting more shows and episodes like this! I’d subscribe in a heartbeat.
The truth is if I was there, I would have talked myself into a three way with Jean and Madelyn. Maybe even get Morph and Mystique in on the action and have a Jean Grey free-for-all.
Since Madelyne is the one who actually gave birth to Nathan, that means that Sinister made the switch at minimum 9 months prior to X-Men '97 episode 1. It's possible that he made the switch in season 4 and that Madelyne was acting as Jean throughout all of season 5.
Thanks for that interview. It was captivating and I hope you will invite Nicolas again to talk about other metaphysical topics surrounding super-hero stories.
Don’t forget Jean’s black queen outfit when she was turning dark Phoenix, she’s got some kink in there too (plus all of Madelyn’s memories and potential for that costume lol)
I look at Phoenix as a force that will live with Jean forever. Let’s remember in the last episode of the Phoenix saga, it was the Phoenix who revived Jean after she destroyed herself. It is now confirmed that Jean passed away in the space shuttle and when she went deep into the sun. I guess Phoenix will show up anytime she senses Jean’s life is in peril. I guess this makes her immortal, maybe Wolverine does have a shot once Scott’s gone lol
Was a damn good video with great questions asked . . . Also was a good use ov clips from things not related, yet clearly in the same vein to add context. I appreciate your mind. ❤
This was great, love any philosophy talks and tying it in with my favorite comic/TV stories makes it even better. Please get Nicholas M. back for more videos!
Yo Ryan, get that man on the payroll ASAP! You guys should be having way more conversations like this one! I'm thinking a whole new segment where you and Nick keep giving each other different ways of thinking about scenes and philosophizing in universe... Oh yeah Ask him if he has any pets or puppets too!
1000% agree! I found this way more fun than the complaining we sometimes get. This is how to engage in a story and really dig in. Granted, I recognize it’s hard to dig in when the bottom of the sandbox is too shallow. One other reason to recognize why X97 is so good
I believe the plan behind this sloppy reintroduction of the Phoenix was to let us know that the Phoenix force can never truly be separated from one of its hosts. And it also attaches itself to the host's heirs, a piece of it at least. Madelyne was never Phoenix, so Cable didn't inherit it. I suppose you can make the case that his genetics and Madelyne's could make them good hosts, if necessary, but we're talking about Jean and any future children. I believe this scene was setting up... . . . . . . . . . . . . [SPOILER] Rachel Summers, the daughter of Scott and Jean, not Madelyne, who is destined to become Mother Askani in Cable's future timeline, and who was introduced in the last moments of Episode 10.
I still sort of believe that Madelyne was the mind and memories of Jean Grey and Jean had the Phoenix second hand memories which is why Jean couldn’t remember her memories. It wasn’t till Madelyne died that Jean recovered her memories which makes me think they merged back once Maddy died. I feel like it makes the most sense too given when Jean spoke about things she’d say, “I was the Phoenix. Whole galaxies called out to me” to Scott where as Maddy cared more about the things in Jean’s personal life like the child and husband she had. I really liked Maddy and it felt like a punch to the heart to learn she died in the Genosha attack.
jean is literally phoenix in comics phoenix in jean now and forever in comics and she can use power of phoenix wherever she went her most powerful form is white phoenix of crown which her become ominiversal being
So I think they do meet. When Cable goes to Genosha, he tries to warn what appears to be Jean, but it is Madelyne and he even apologizes to her and I think calls her "Mom." Not a long hangout, for sure, though
Poor Madelyne. I did too. She loved her son so much and he was loyal to her. It took him a really long time to warm up to Jean as being someone he could see his mother in.
@@Nightman221kJean is literally Madalyn he sees her when he looks at Jean, the issue was blaming Jean like it was her fault, and he realized it wasn’t during the battle with Sinister.
@@Byronic19134 My personal theory for why Cable felt discomfort around Jean is because he was using his telepathy to locate Madelyne before the Genosha massacre. I think he psychically felt Madelyne's hurt feelings from the moments leading up to the sentinel's attack when she was at the party. Maddy looked very disheartened when she saw Remy upset that Rogue appeared to be happier with Magneto. I think when Maddy saw her friend hurt, she felt like she could relate to what he was going through. With Madelyne, Scott chose to stay at the X-Mansion with Jean and didn't choose to remain with her (like how Rogue rejected Remy to effectively be Magneto's Queen). Cable tried so many times to save Madelyne, so psychically feeling that his doomed mother was feeling hurt feelings in her last moments in part due to Jean, it would be understandable to why he might feel hesitant to warm up to Jean and why he had complex feelings about his father.
An interesting conversation, but in no way does Madelyne have good reason to believe that she was first. Not only did Beast clearly explain that Madelyne was genetically younger than the original Jean, but the fact that the Phoenix also had a connection to Jean and not Madelyne is blinding obvious proof of which one of them was the original, real deal.
I think this is an important point. And I don't disagree. The problem then becomes the problem of the rest of society (i.e. Scott and the X-Men) having to do deal with the contradiction of them being the same person.
When you started talking about Jean and Madelyne's memories merging together, I immediately thought of RWBY when as the show progressed Oz's consciousness slowly began to merge with Oscar's.
This was so dope. Only things I disagree on are The Phoenix showing up. I didn’t feel like it took me personally out of the 97 experience because, as they are expressing in the current X-Men comics the Phoenix is apart of Jean grey(and every mutant) always. So giving Jean that extra boost when she needs it will always be a thing. As far as Madilyn Pryor’s name, and how she got it here wasn’t her(Jean’s childhood best friend who was killed) named “Maddie”? I think that was her way of honoring, or giving her(Maddie)new life.
There's a quote by Alan Watts that talks about this. He talks about a school university and says that even tho the faculty and the students change all throughout the years, even the structure of the buildings, is it still the same university even tho there's not a single original structure.
Wow!!!! Madelyn Prior’s name comes from the folk band, Steeleye Span!!!! I never realised that and never connected “Maddie Prior” (fabulous singer) with X-Men!!!! Mind blown!
Maddy Prior is the singer of British folk-rock group Steeleye Span. It wouldn't surprise me if, in-universe, Madelyne picked up Scott's Steeleye Span album and read the credits.
I love marvel, but I'm getting a bit burnt out on the channel's many videos on this series as well as Deadpool & Wolverine. Could you please do a break down on Outer Range Season 1 & 2?
Yeah because in her case shes got her whole memory fucked up from absorbing that ladys powers back in the day. In her case its all about her memories, while this discussion is more about the "self" as a whole. Still interesting tho to ask this same questions using her example.
I disagree. I think Rogue’s case is different, but not outright worse or better applied. Rogue’s position has her taken what never belonged to her to begin with and trying to remember what parts of herself were her and what were the other person. Jean’s is more experiencing what should be her life through someone exactly like her. Taking on identities that are hers and separate from her. They belong to Jean, but took on lives of their own, confusing identity differently that cannot be as easily answered as Rogue who is only confused about memories that are not hers.
Jean isn’t the Phoenix, she was able to harness a portion of the power the Phoenix leaves in entities it encounters. A lot of people have used that power that the Phoenix leaves within them, Jean’s daughter met the Phoenix in the time stream and that interaction left a portion of the cosmic entity inside Rachel, she didn’t become the actual Phoenix and neither did Jean in the comics, Phoenix swapped places with Jean while her body healed and became lost in the thoughts and emotions it took from Jean and believed itself to be her. When Jean says I am Phoenix,it’s not a literal statement, she is channeling the power inside of herself and that power is part of Phoenix. Madelyne isn’t Jean outside of being a genetic copy with implanted memories, she didn’t make the memories, she didn’t experience the making of the memories, she just has them. If Sinister had put anyone’s memories into the clone, it would believe it was that person. It has the Phoenix memories because Jean has them from the psychic link between her and the Phoenix and Sinister took them, Madelyne never experienced being the Phoenix, she remembers what it felt like because Jean remembered, borrowing memories doesn’t give ownership to them. I recently had a conversation with cousins I grew up with and I was telling them a story about something that happened to us as kids and my one cousin started laughing, he said that didn’t happen to you, it happened to me and you were there. I thought about it and I remember myself in the memory and it happened to me but it didn’t. I was there and I witnessed it and somehow reshaped the memory to be about me, the mind is a very complex thing and we sometimes make memories to answer to what we believe. Madelyne believed she was Jean so she made it true but she wasn’t. Madelyne was a copy and with copies, there is a blurring of the original, it deteriorates the further you get from the original as did Madelyne in the comics, she became her own person who wasn’t like Jean once she started living her own life, making her own memories. It’s all fascinating and I think this show handled it as well as they could with time constraints, we are getting a lot of stories truncated for time but it’s done really well.
They switch between episodes 18 and 19 of season 4 (right after the second wedding). Jean is kidnapped by Mr. Sinister at the end of episode 18. Cable is reintroduced in episode 19. That allows Jean to be the Phoenix and Cable could make sure that they "rescue" his mom and not Jean.
The Ship of Theseus by Plutarch may also apply here too: The ship wherein Theseus and the youth of Athens returned from Crete had thirty oars, and was preserved by the Athenians down even to the time of Demetrius Phalereus, for they took away the old planks as they decayed, putting in new and stronger timber in their places, insomuch that this ship became a standing example among the philosophers, for the logical question of things that grow; one side holding that the ship remained the same, and the other contending that it was not the same. - Plutarch, Life of Theseus 23.1
The crazy thing about the identity question is that the prestige way that krakoan reincarnation works put the real identity of almost EVERY currnet mutant into question
This is a discussion that can happen in Transformers. Transformers souls are contained in their spark. But there's sparks can be transferred two brand new bodies and they'll be the same person. At the same time, their sparks can be split and bring new life to different robots with completely different personalities.
I love the discussion...I think you're also discounting that the Phoenix is a sentient being. It only bonds and manifests fully with its only chosen avatar. In the comics tbe phoenix cannot be at its peak being in an avatar if its not Jean. In the animated series Phoenix chose Jean and probably would not manifest if its not with the real Jean. I also think that they were switched after the Phoenix Saga... after she was resurrected where phoenix took a piece of fire from the X-Men. Madelyn is a tragic figure, unfortunately she lived the life that the real Jean deserved. Jean does not even have Madelyn's life during the marriage or having ever having nathan not until she had her psychic bout with Madelyn. Scott loved Madelyn because he thought she was Jean but yes he was married to Madelyn not Jean. Jean studied and is discerning Madelyn's Life. She embraced her clone to the point that she eventually called Cable "her son" and Cable also referring to Jean as "my mom" even if the real Jean did not birth him but her clone. So it's really that complicated to follow.
I mean, Jean showing up and being “the real” Jean made it feel like she instantly had to give up her whole marriage and life because she unknowingly was a clone created by Sinister. She was in an unwinnable position.
You brought up The Phoenix Force, but you also brought up that ever since The Phoenix bonded with Jean they became linked forever no matter by how little at the time. When The Phoenix aided Jean in the final episode of season 1 of X-Men '97 they were separate beings due to the events of the Dark Phoenix arc of the original show. The Phoenix still very much cares about Jean so it would obviously spare some power to aid her in an emergency like that final episode called for. Notice how it didn't stick around and only saved her from the immediate threat and then left so the X-Men would have to do the rest on their own. Thus, Jean is not guilty of any of the crimes committed while the Dark Phoenix was in control of her body.
Theory: The "Phoenix" gave the last of it's essence left in the OG jean, to resurrect her, and then be reborn. I could be wrong but I remember a Phoenix egg in the comics. Which could pit the X-Men against the Shi'ar over it's power. Which I think was the comic storyline, I could also be very off. Love the videos! Very though provoking on this specific one.
I think that the Phoenix is going to be making more frequent stops to Jean in times of need. Eventually, Jean will just adopt the name Phoenix, as she does later in the comics. She also ends up dying at the hands of Magneto.
That's not Magneto. It's Xorn. And that death is practically Grant Morrison's weakest writing to date. You can't kill the Phoenix with an EMP even if it's planetary in scale.
@@hcbabyssian8936 I forgot it was Xorn. I didn't really care for it either, but I felt it worth mentioning because the show has has shown fidelity to the comics and that story eventually comes to pass.
Can Madalyn summon the Phoenix? Does the Phoenix recognize Madalyn? When in the show did we see the Phoenix last? Maybe it appears as a way of telling us when Jean was last Jean
@ScreenCrush your philosophy adviser fell short on a few points, as did your supositional thinking; in the cartoon, its obvious that even if Jean is wrong, and the Phoenix she felt deep insider of her is a psychological projection of Jean imaginig her strongest self. Though there was some fire, this "phoenix" was a telekinetic form of mostly water, and Jeans ego.
I feel like the girl born Jean Grey was the woman we followed for most of the series in the 90s, and Madeline is fairly new. Philosophical, I think our soul and our mind are the same thing.
What if we think of telepaths like cell phones. Would that mean that Madelyn was a burner phone and Jean was the one the burner (Madelyn) copy the data from. Then would that make the Phynix force the cloud storage? The same cell number, same data but three places it could exist, the original phone, and burner phone and the cloud. It because a superpower within a superpower as being a telepath like Jean allow for back-ups to exist. This was a cool video thanks @Screencrush!
It seems that Madeline Pryor never had the Phoenix force in her. After the Phoenix helped Cable, Jean said the Phoenix was finally gone. When Madeline was angry, she only changed into the Goblin Queen. So the 90s Phoenix was the real Jean Grey.🤷🏿
I think that Phoenix moment is fine they wanted to get it out of the way they don't want to have it as a crutch so as long as they don't use it from here on out it's better to get it over with
Just because someone doesn’t have memory of who they are, doesn’t make them not who they are. If that was the case, then amnesiacs and people with Alzheimer’s aren’t themselves. Something that can change when they regain their memory or become lucid….
This is fantastic, please do more stuff like this. Can we please have greater philosophical discussions about this bonkers, wacko universe, more videos, talking about the economics maybe the MCU? How does social work happen in this universe? Are businesses becoming pro mutant to make money, like when companies are real gay for pride month and then come August 1. They don’t do anything to support the gay community anymore? you know stuff like that?
I think I've got a pretty good idea. When she might have been switched. Now hear me out on this. The first idea I have cause remember. There have been several times gene has not been with the x men. We can exclude the Phoenix dark Phoenix thing. Because she was in space that whole time. And then she came back, but let's try. The savage land Jean was with sinister for quite a while before the x men had arrived plus sinister's men had to keep the x men busy before bringing them to the citadel, so I'm gonna assume that when he gene in Xavier. And more went to sleep that night. That might be when she was cloned. But remember clones need a while to grow. Unlike the Mary Jane clone in Spider-Man, the animated series that was taken DN. A from hydromann after e was cloned. Well, it was added to hydro man if you will. She immediately was cloned into an adult. So it could be possible that miles. Warren may may possibly have work with mr. Sinister, possibly again. This is a hypothesis possibility. The second idea I have is. I'm trying to think of any other times gene has been up when Apocalypse had sinister. Bring her to the access of time. She could have been clone then too. Because remember she was gone for quite a while. Almost 23 days I think it was 3 days. I don't know, but with Apocalypse messing with time. That could have also have done some altering. But even though Xavier was with Jean at the very end of that, he was not with her at the start of it when the nasty boys sinister's crew had grabbed her. So those are my only to thoughts of win. Jean might have been switched. The club made not have needed to have time to age that much. This isn't exactly gallata from the DCA u. And she started out as a call in the took a while. But at least we knew that clone she wasn't super girl. We knew the difference but yeah that's kind of my idea
You have Document A... you make an exact copy... they're now both Document A, yet different (so Document A and Document A1). You start making marks on Document A and making different marks on Document A1. They're not the same anymore. Each has it's own distinguishing traits. If you made the EXACT same marks on both copies then they'd still be technically the same document, yet Document A1 would still be a copy of A (though to the naked eye... they're identical). That's the issue here with Jean and Madelyn. For their to be confusion as to who is who, they would have to mirror one another's actions, attitudes, and choices IDENTICALLY. What's throwing everyone off is the fact that their memories "update" and sync with one another. If not for that action, then there'd be no question that they're two distinct people with a shared past. But that's sloppy writing. Think about it... when Jean get's angry at Madelyn and Scott for they psychic tryst, does Madelyn also remember and feel herself being angry at what she's done? No. It would be SO confusing trying to live TWO lives at the same time and make sense of it! Jean could be watching a ballgame and Madelyn could be rollerblading at 6pm on a Friday... and EACH would have to remember experiencing BOTH AT THE SAME EXACT TIME! No, that doesn't work. Jean should have her memories up until she's switched with Madelyn (and after she escapes) and Madelyn should have Jean's memories up to that time but also her OWN memories from that time forward. Each person is defined by his / her experiences and choices.
Twins are identical clones but they both have souls because they have separate lives and minds just because they share experiences doesn't mean difference is finger print and voice inflection but there than that u can compare the clones due 2 there ages I Believe they both have an identity
I can explain. I think. The phoenix is dormant much like Wolverine's berserker mode. He can't control it. Its triggered when in dire life threatening moments. You saw phoenix appear when Jean sunk into the water. She appeared, did her thing then disappeared. Later on Jean will be able to control or conjure the phoenix at will.
Memory doesnt just make who you are. As best clearly stated. I am assuming in the cloning of memory that somehow the OG Jean memory where taken or fragmented into the clone to create this confusion. Also. Throughout the OG series Sinster was trying to get Jean. If he all ready her why would he try to kidnap her? I think that during or sometime after Beyond Good and Evil Sinster kidnapped Jean to make Madelyn. I agree that Madelyn just shares Jean"s memory of the Phoenix but the Phoenix would know the OG from a clone.
The original was the one that was violated kidnapped experimented on. The clone didn’t experience any of that. Plus being a clone she was probably planted for bad reasons which makes her untrustworthy.
I think this question was answered in the movie The Matrix... real is not defined by sensory or memory, but what you choose to believe and how you act based on it. They are both the real Jean while both are different... like Loki variants. Just bc we are used to how 616 Loki looks doesn't mean the other Lokis are not the original. Or in the case of twins... a single cell dividing into 2 identical cells.
This subject is extremely complicated but the way i look at it is that Jean and Madelyne are kinda like NAS servers storing Data i think they are permanently linked by their shared psychic power. Mr Sinister Cloned Jean to create Madelyne and i can only assume transferred Jeans memories to Madelyne giving her her sense of self as "Jean". As Jeans memories were transferred it is likely the reason Jean is unable to recall her memories as they were stripped, using the NAS annalogy Mr Sinister used Cut and Paste rather than Copy and Paste to transfer the memories. But like 2 Nas servers set to back up and Sync I think that when Jean and Madelyne's minds are both active their shared psychic connection acts like a bridge gradually syncing up their memories. I think Mr Sinister kept Jean mostly in a form of Stasis which means her mind was inactive and unable to connect to Madelyne, when she wakes up knowing nothing of herself she escapes Mr Sinisters lab and her powers start to passively sync with Madelyne allowing memories to slowly bleed accross the passive connection firstly making her know she needed to get to the X-men but also how to physically get there. Once they are aware of each others existence and start to actively Psychicly interact with each other that passive connection becomes active to copy the missing info from Madelyn back to Jean to restore the memory damage Mr Sinister caused during the original memory transfer like the scene of Jean's childhood, madelyne remembers it but Jean is recovering that memory from Madelyn restoring it to her own psyche. I think that the memory transfer goes a step further than recovering lost memory as it also transfers any memorys that Madelyne personally identifys as "Jean's" memories which extend as far as the point that she personally excepts she is not "Jean" this is why the real Jean remembers Madelyne's pregnancy as at the time she identified herself as "Jean" Any memory labeled as belonging to "Jean Grey" is backed up and synced between them solidifying the base persona of Jean which they both extend from, Jean continuing the persona and Madelyne using it as a foundation but branching off as an individual (Kinda like Thomas Riker in Star Trek). Only once they both identify themselves as seperate distinct individuals does their bond stop syncing their memories until the point where madelyne dies where the bond affectively does a large info dump into Jean's mind transfering Madelyne's memories as an individual to Jean which in it's own way now muddies the waters once again as to who Jean is as she amalgamates the sum of both Data sets, she starts wearing her hair down, she states while fighting Mr Sinister that Madelyne fights with her now. But while she now has all Madelyne's memories she is not Madelyne as it's information not emotionally linked recollections as you can see by Madelyne recognising Cable with a look but Jean needed to link to Cable's mind before she could connect it to her knowledge of Madelyne recognising Cable.
I have a key for my car. I go to the hardware store and they make a copy. Both keys are the real key because I recognize them as the same function, same purpose. I recognize them as the same nature.
I have a chain of memories that comprise a part of my identity. So I have continuity of recognition that this is me. The person I met 20 years ago and doesn't have me as a point of reference or pattern in their memories may not recognize me. I would be a different person to them. And if we got reacquainted, they might connect new experiences to old memories and suddenly I am the same person. Things can be the same thing or different based on frame of reference or recognition.
This is the horror and tragedy of Madeline. She knows herself as Jean, she has continuity of recognition. But with very little provocation, all the people she knows and loves the most suddenly and pointlessly break that recognition for no reason. By declaring all of a sudden, "you aren't real" when she knows she is real is a fundamental betrayal.
Big problems with this. 1. From an internal perspective, there are breaks in continuity when a person blacks out, goes under general anesthesia, every time they go to sleep, and every time they forget past experiences. I take it for granted that the me who wakes up is the same me who went to sleep because I remember being that me, but in a sense, past me, especially a past me I have forgotten, is simply gone. 2. Qualitative identity is not self-same identity. If you stepped into a machine that made an exact duplicate of you, then one of the duplicates would randomly be shot, I bet it would make a difference to you WHICH "you" gets to continue living. It's not a conundrum for objects. For conscious beings, it's a huge puzzle.
@@BlackShardStudio Continuity isn't meant to be literal, mathematical, logical identity. It is a chain, an understanding. The person before sleep remembers and recognizes themselves before and after. The same person. And yes, if you were to build continuity of recognition on a specific moment of you, then in a mere moment after that, you would not be the same under that definition. That's why that's not a good way to define identity. :) The machine makes 2 of me. As soon as there are two, their independent continuity begins to diverge. Of course they would not want to die. And over time they would be different people. There's no difference a person or an object. The frame of reference matters.
Ok this is a strong reach and it's just my opinion I think switched happened during X-Men the animated series Till Death Do Us Part (Part 2 of 2) because when the X-Men arrive to save Scott and Jean from Mr.Sinster he was removing genetic material from Scott and Scott and Jean hadn't to long had woken up in the lab after being attacked on the boat I just literally watched this episode and I'm just throwing it out there plus that episode also give you a back drop into the start of Morphs trauma that he suffered at the hands of Mr Sinister once again just throwing this out there
He keeps saying that Madelyn was Jean for 20 something years…we don’t know when they were actually switched. I believe it was definitely after the Phoenix saga. Otherwise Jean wouldn’t have been able to summon the PF. In comic book time that’s only been a short while. Which also means Scott’s wedding was to Jean not Madelyn. Juan didn’t have the memories at first-that’s true-but it was because she had been in a coma! It takes a while to get reoriented. It doesn’t make her any less “her”. I do feel bad for Madelyn…she hasn’t done anything wrong. But she’s not Jean.
My theory is that the phoenix only ever possessed Jean and Madelyn only ever had a memory of being possessed. That’s why Madelyn wasn’t able to use the phoenix to survive Genosha but Jean was able to use it to defeat Sinister.
I agree. If the Phoenix had only ever possessed Madelyn, Jean shouldn't have any lingering embers or connection to it. It's possible the switch happened during the original series but it imo, it had to be after Phoenix.
EXACTLY!! having pheonix pop up to save jean in episode 9 was deliberate and pretty much answered who the real jean is and when the switch happened
I agree to me that proves Maddy was never Phoenix. Phoenix was Jean Grey. If it had ever possessed Maddy, she would have survived the massacre. I also liked how it appeared that Maddy's power started to appear as pink while Jean's remained blue.
Agreed also don't forget that the Phoenix came in defense of Jean against Sinister of all people who was responsible for the switch
The phoenix is constantly working to preserve Jean because she is its ideal host. It totally makes sense than that she saved Jean and not Madyln. Great catch!
The Phoenix saving Jean then immediately “leaving” could be a story point later. Phoenix is now a separate identity/consciousness/personality within Jean’s mind. It imprinted on her (because of her strength and her powers) and now a copy of the Phoenix is always a separate personality within Jean. It surfaces to save itself from death, but now that it’s awakened, it wants more control. Jean will have to deal with literal split-personality disorder. Jean, Phoenix, even Madelyn, they’re all now separate personalities that live within her mind, and the battle over which personality is truly her would be an excellent storyline for the show to pursue. Jean is the rule follower, Madelyn is a little more loose, and Phoenix follows only its own desires.
Poor Logan even though there's two Jeans he still didn't get any! 😂😂
That's why he clapped mystique she can be Jean for him all day
Or he could clap Morph. 💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀
@@andrewmarsjr9879Can Logan have a three-way with her and Destiny
@@MarvelFan-zi9wq lol no botty mon ish brah
@@MarvelFan-zi9wq Morph kinda seemed like he'd be into it.
This is what I love about comics. These kind of deep philosophical discussions that can come from the hyper reality of super heroes.
Clicked for the info😊
Stayed for the philosophical lecture🤗
Loved puppy Doug the most 😍
Agreed, Doug is the best part!
Maybe the real Jean Grey were the friends we made all along while discussing X-Men 97 these past weeks
Believe it or not, this video made me like the Phoenix moment so much better as it adds an additional layer to this identity story, and we never know what they'll pull next from the various Phoenix stories and what they could try to do with it to build upon this appearance. The great thing about media is all of us consume it in our own way and what resonates with one of us may never do so with another, but that's what's so great about the diversity of life and the fact that we are constantly changing and evolving and learning from one another.
This was so much fun!!! Please do it again!!
Hey Ryan and ScreenCrush,
I love this conversation! You should start a podcast dissecting more shows and episodes like this! I’d subscribe in a heartbeat.
So glad you enjoyed it!
Omg I was NOT prepared for puppy Doug 😢
The truth is if I was there, I would have talked myself into a three way with Jean and Madelyn. Maybe even get Morph and Mystique in on the action and have a Jean Grey free-for-all.
How many times has Morph gave Logan the Boochie Cat as Jean Grey.
Found Logan's TH-cam account
We get it, you like redheads
@@jordanromesburg6819 Love 'em!
AND MAKE LOGAN WATCH
I was not ready for that cuteness overload of puppy Doug at 5:17
Since Madelyne is the one who actually gave birth to Nathan, that means that Sinister made the switch at minimum 9 months prior to X-Men '97 episode 1. It's possible that he made the switch in season 4 and that Madelyne was acting as Jean throughout all of season 5.
She have her hair down in that season too
In the last season her design change to the hair-down look signifies Madelyne to me.
Thanks for that interview. It was captivating and I hope you will invite Nicolas again to talk about other metaphysical topics surrounding super-hero stories.
Thanks! We just did another one on Agatha All Along!
After that Goblin Queen costume, idgaf, Madelyne Prior is the real Jean Grey now 😅
Ah a man of culture
Don’t forget Jean’s black queen outfit when she was turning dark Phoenix, she’s got some kink in there too (plus all of Madelyn’s memories and potential for that costume lol)
Acknowledge her lol
Awesome! Please more philosophy segments. Would be a great addition to "x was right all along" videos
Thanks guys. I would not have gotten into this show without you
I look at Phoenix as a force that will live with Jean forever. Let’s remember in the last episode of the Phoenix saga, it was the Phoenix who revived Jean after she destroyed herself. It is now confirmed that Jean passed away in the space shuttle and when she went deep into the sun. I guess Phoenix will show up anytime she senses Jean’s life is in peril. I guess this makes her immortal, maybe Wolverine does have a shot once Scott’s gone lol
Wolverine can wait for sure. 😉
Ryan, please do more content like that, it was really fun to watch
Was a damn good video with great questions asked . . . Also was a good use ov clips from things not related, yet clearly in the same vein to add context.
I appreciate your mind. ❤
Imagine if Jean, Madelyne and Cable went on Maury. 😂
sounds like a robot chicken skit
@@hoodedchildxtrue!
This was great, love any philosophy talks and tying it in with my favorite comic/TV stories makes it even better. Please get Nicholas M. back for more videos!
We'll let him know you want more
Thank you! We just did another one on Agatha All Along!
AMAZING discussion guys, such a wonderful example of the types of deep questions / discussions comics generate
This was suuuuper interesting and fascinating!!! More philosophical talks like this please haha!
So glad you liked it 😊
Yo Ryan, get that man on the payroll ASAP!
You guys should be having way more conversations like this one! I'm thinking a whole new segment where you and Nick keep giving each other different ways of thinking about scenes and philosophizing in universe...
Oh yeah
Ask him if he has any pets or puppets too!
Thank you so much! We actually just did another one on Agatha All Along! And I have two cats 😊😂
This is such a great theme and guest for a video. Id love way more of this in depth analysis with an expert over blind speculation videos any time.
1000% agree! I found this way more fun than the complaining we sometimes get. This is how to engage in a story and really dig in. Granted, I recognize it’s hard to dig in when the bottom of the sandbox is too shallow. One other reason to recognize why X97 is so good
Give Nicolas his own segment. Dude's great!
That's so nice of you. Thank you 😊
I believe the plan behind this sloppy reintroduction of the Phoenix was to let us know that the Phoenix force can never truly be separated from one of its hosts. And it also attaches itself to the host's heirs, a piece of it at least. Madelyne was never Phoenix, so Cable didn't inherit it. I suppose you can make the case that his genetics and Madelyne's could make them good hosts, if necessary, but we're talking about Jean and any future children. I believe this scene was setting up...
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[SPOILER]
Rachel Summers, the daughter of Scott and Jean, not Madelyne, who is destined to become Mother Askani in Cable's future timeline, and who was introduced in the last moments of Episode 10.
more of this please it was a great 🔥
could easily watch another hour
Thank you! 😊
10/10 banger video. Bring this man back please.
I think Jean Grey got replaced during Beyond Good and Evil story arc.
This is a fascinating discussion.
This was an epic omega-level nerd out! Thank you so much!!👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
I still sort of believe that Madelyne was the mind and memories of Jean Grey and Jean had the Phoenix second hand memories which is why Jean couldn’t remember her memories. It wasn’t till Madelyne died that Jean recovered her memories which makes me think they merged back once Maddy died. I feel like it makes the most sense too given when Jean spoke about things she’d say, “I was the Phoenix. Whole galaxies called out to me” to Scott where as Maddy cared more about the things in Jean’s personal life like the child and husband she had. I really liked Maddy and it felt like a punch to the heart to learn she died in the Genosha attack.
jean is literally phoenix in comics phoenix in jean now and forever in comics and she can use power of phoenix wherever she went her most powerful form is white phoenix of crown which her become ominiversal being
I wanted Cable to meet Madelyne.
So I think they do meet. When Cable goes to Genosha, he tries to warn what appears to be Jean, but it is Madelyne and he even apologizes to her and I think calls her "Mom." Not a long hangout, for sure, though
Poor Madelyne. I did too. She loved her son so much and he was loyal to her. It took him a really long time to warm up to Jean as being someone he could see his mother in.
@@Nightman221kJean is literally Madalyn he sees her when he looks at Jean, the issue was blaming Jean like it was her fault, and he realized it wasn’t during the battle with Sinister.
@@Byronic19134 My personal theory for why Cable felt discomfort around Jean is because he was using his telepathy to locate Madelyne before the Genosha massacre. I think he psychically felt Madelyne's hurt feelings from the moments leading up to the sentinel's attack when she was at the party.
Maddy looked very disheartened when she saw Remy upset that Rogue appeared to be happier with Magneto. I think when Maddy saw her friend hurt, she felt like she could relate to what he was going through. With Madelyne, Scott chose to stay at the X-Mansion with Jean and didn't choose to remain with her (like how Rogue rejected Remy to effectively be Magneto's Queen).
Cable tried so many times to save Madelyne, so psychically feeling that his doomed mother was feeling hurt feelings in her last moments in part due to Jean, it would be understandable to why he might feel hesitant to warm up to Jean and why he had complex feelings about his father.
@@Nightman221k half an episode of a cartoon is "a really long time"?
An interesting conversation, but in no way does Madelyne have good reason to believe that she was first. Not only did Beast clearly explain that Madelyne was genetically younger than the original Jean, but the fact that the Phoenix also had a connection to Jean and not Madelyne is blinding obvious proof of which one of them was the original, real deal.
All of these Jean-Madelyn discussion everywhere, but no mention of two Beths. I was kind of expecting how people would compare them.
Who are the two Beths?
Awesome episode!!! More, more MORE!!! THKS!
Much like Rick's daughter and her clone, Jean doesn't want to know who is the original because it doesn't matter
I think this is an important point. And I don't disagree. The problem then becomes the problem of the rest of society (i.e. Scott and the X-Men) having to do deal with the contradiction of them being the same person.
Gonna need a puppy Doug T-shirt..... NOW!!!
Agreed!
When you started talking about Jean and Madelyne's memories merging together, I immediately thought of RWBY when as the show progressed Oz's consciousness slowly began to merge with Oscar's.
Very interesting conversation!
Nicolas needs a TH-cam channel. Get on that bro.
OMG! Puppy Doug was hilariously cute, hahaha, looks like a lil ball of static 😂😂😂😂
This was so dope. Only things I disagree on are The Phoenix showing up. I didn’t feel like it took me personally out of the 97 experience because, as they are expressing in the current X-Men comics the Phoenix is apart of Jean grey(and every mutant) always. So giving Jean that extra boost when she needs it will always be a thing. As far as Madilyn Pryor’s name, and how she got it here wasn’t her(Jean’s childhood best friend who was killed) named “Maddie”? I think that was her way of honoring, or giving her(Maddie)new life.
didn't expect the House of Mogh name drop....but I'm here for it.
There's a quote by Alan Watts that talks about this. He talks about a school university and says that even tho the faculty and the students change all throughout the years, even the structure of the buildings, is it still the same university even tho there's not a single original structure.
Wow!!!! Madelyn Prior’s name comes from the folk band, Steeleye Span!!!! I never realised that and never connected “Maddie Prior” (fabulous singer) with X-Men!!!! Mind blown!
And they called him..... Puppy Doug
Maddy Prior is the singer of British folk-rock group Steeleye Span. It wouldn't surprise me if, in-universe, Madelyne picked up Scott's Steeleye Span album and read the credits.
I love marvel, but I'm getting a bit burnt out on the channel's many videos on this series as well as Deadpool & Wolverine.
Could you please do a break down on Outer Range Season 1 & 2?
I think this the question of "Who am I?" and "What is my soul?" is more applicable to Rogue than Jean Grey.
Yeah because in her case shes got her whole memory fucked up from absorbing that ladys powers back in the day. In her case its all about her memories, while this discussion is more about the "self" as a whole. Still interesting tho to ask this same questions using her example.
I disagree. I think Rogue’s case is different, but not outright worse or better applied.
Rogue’s position has her taken what never belonged to her to begin with and trying to remember what parts of herself were her and what were the other person.
Jean’s is more experiencing what should be her life through someone exactly like her. Taking on identities that are hers and separate from her. They belong to Jean, but took on lives of their own, confusing identity differently that cannot be as easily answered as Rogue who is only confused about memories that are not hers.
I hope S2 develops Rouge's history with miss Marvel.
Jean isn’t the Phoenix, she was able to harness a portion of the power the Phoenix leaves in entities it encounters. A lot of people have used that power that the Phoenix leaves within them, Jean’s daughter met the Phoenix in the time stream and that interaction left a portion of the cosmic entity inside Rachel, she didn’t become the actual Phoenix and neither did Jean in the comics, Phoenix swapped places with Jean while her body healed and became lost in the thoughts and emotions it took from Jean and believed itself to be her. When Jean says I am Phoenix,it’s not a literal statement, she is channeling the power inside of herself and that power is part of Phoenix. Madelyne isn’t Jean outside of being a genetic copy with implanted memories, she didn’t make the memories, she didn’t experience the making of the memories, she just has them. If Sinister had put anyone’s memories into the clone, it would believe it was that person. It has the Phoenix memories because Jean has them from the psychic link between her and the Phoenix and Sinister took them, Madelyne never experienced being the Phoenix, she remembers what it felt like because Jean remembered, borrowing memories doesn’t give ownership to them. I recently had a conversation with cousins I grew up with and I was telling them a story about something that happened to us as kids and my one cousin started laughing, he said that didn’t happen to you, it happened to me and you were there. I thought about it and I remember myself in the memory and it happened to me but it didn’t. I was there and I witnessed it and somehow reshaped the memory to be about me, the mind is a very complex thing and we sometimes make memories to answer to what we believe. Madelyne believed she was Jean so she made it true but she wasn’t. Madelyne was a copy and with copies, there is a blurring of the original, it deteriorates the further you get from the original as did Madelyne in the comics, she became her own person who wasn’t like Jean once she started living her own life, making her own memories. It’s all fascinating and I think this show handled it as well as they could with time constraints, we are getting a lot of stories truncated for time but it’s done really well.
They switch between episodes 18 and 19 of season 4 (right after the second wedding). Jean is kidnapped by Mr. Sinister at the end of episode 18. Cable is reintroduced in episode 19. That allows Jean to be the Phoenix and Cable could make sure that they "rescue" his mom and not Jean.
The Ship of Theseus by Plutarch may also apply here too:
The ship wherein Theseus and the youth of Athens returned from Crete had thirty oars, and was preserved by the Athenians down even to the time of Demetrius Phalereus, for they took away the old planks as they decayed, putting in new and stronger timber in their places, insomuch that this ship became a standing example among the philosophers, for the logical question of things that grow; one side holding that the ship remained the same, and the other contending that it was not the same.
- Plutarch, Life of Theseus 23.1
UPDATE: now I see it mentioned in the video lol
Vision approves of this reference.
The crazy thing about the identity question is that the prestige way that krakoan reincarnation works put the real identity of almost EVERY currnet mutant into question
This is a discussion that can happen in Transformers. Transformers souls are contained in their spark.
But there's sparks can be transferred two brand new bodies and they'll be the same person. At the same time, their sparks can be split and bring new life to different robots with completely different personalities.
I love the discussion...I think you're also discounting that the Phoenix is a sentient being. It only bonds and manifests fully with its only chosen avatar. In the comics tbe phoenix cannot be at its peak being in an avatar if its not Jean. In the animated series Phoenix chose Jean and probably would not manifest if its not with the real Jean. I also think that they were switched after the Phoenix Saga... after she was resurrected where phoenix took a piece of fire from the X-Men. Madelyn is a tragic figure, unfortunately she lived the life that the real Jean deserved. Jean does not even have Madelyn's life during the marriage or having ever having nathan not until she had her psychic bout with Madelyn. Scott loved Madelyn because he thought she was Jean but yes he was married to Madelyn not Jean. Jean studied and is discerning Madelyn's Life. She embraced her clone to the point that she eventually called Cable "her son" and Cable also referring to Jean as "my mom" even if the real Jean did not birth him but her clone. So it's really that complicated to follow.
She doesn’t get kicked out, she decides to leave By herself, this dude didn’t watch the show 😂😂
They didn't ..kick her out..but they instantly treated her like she was the plague..it was comical how quickly they turned their backs on her
didn’t watch*
I mean, Jean showing up and being “the real” Jean made it feel like she instantly had to give up her whole marriage and life because she unknowingly was a clone created by Sinister. She was in an unwinnable position.
@@BigFunnyGiant thank you
@@hernanvera4535 sorry sometimes I can come across a little bit rude. I don’t mean to be.
@ScreenCrush I listen to your episodes like podcast, if you have an hour long video, it’ll help me get thru my work shift guaranteed 👍🏾
You brought up The Phoenix Force, but you also brought up that ever since The Phoenix bonded with Jean they became linked forever no matter by how little at the time. When The Phoenix aided Jean in the final episode of season 1 of X-Men '97 they were separate beings due to the events of the Dark Phoenix arc of the original show. The Phoenix still very much cares about Jean so it would obviously spare some power to aid her in an emergency like that final episode called for. Notice how it didn't stick around and only saved her from the immediate threat and then left so the X-Men would have to do the rest on their own. Thus, Jean is not guilty of any of the crimes committed while the Dark Phoenix was in control of her body.
Good talk!
Theory: The "Phoenix" gave the last of it's essence left in the OG jean, to resurrect her, and then be reborn. I could be wrong but I remember a Phoenix egg in the comics. Which could pit the X-Men against the Shi'ar over it's power. Which I think was the comic storyline, I could also be very off. Love the videos! Very though provoking on this specific one.
Phrasing Ryan LOL. Great philosophical discussion!
I thought we all theorized that the switch happened during "Beyond Good and Evil", specifically episode one
I think that the Phoenix is going to be making more frequent stops to Jean in times of need. Eventually, Jean will just adopt the name Phoenix, as she does later in the comics. She also ends up dying at the hands of Magneto.
That's not Magneto. It's Xorn. And that death is practically Grant Morrison's weakest writing to date. You can't kill the Phoenix with an EMP even if it's planetary in scale.
@@hcbabyssian8936 I forgot it was Xorn. I didn't really care for it either, but I felt it worth mentioning because the show has has shown fidelity to the comics and that story eventually comes to pass.
The bottom line is Jean is the original & Madelyn is a twin clone of Jean!
This Is The Same Conclusion I Came To As Well.
Can Madalyn summon the Phoenix? Does the Phoenix recognize Madalyn? When in the show did we see the Phoenix last? Maybe it appears as a way of telling us when Jean was last Jean
The editor not putting January Jones in the Mad Men clips 😅😅🤣🤣😂😂
You're the best Ryan
@ScreenCrush your philosophy adviser fell short on a few points, as did your supositional thinking; in the cartoon, its obvious that even if Jean is wrong, and the Phoenix she felt deep insider of her is a psychological projection of Jean imaginig her strongest self. Though there was some fire, this "phoenix" was a telekinetic form of mostly water, and Jeans ego.
I feel like the girl born Jean Grey was the woman we followed for most of the series in the 90s, and Madeline is fairly new. Philosophical, I think our soul and our mind are the same thing.
What if we think of telepaths like cell phones. Would that mean that Madelyn was a burner phone and Jean was the one the burner (Madelyn) copy the data from. Then would that make the Phynix force the cloud storage? The same cell number, same data but three places it could exist, the original phone, and burner phone and the cloud. It because a superpower within a superpower as being a telepath like Jean allow for back-ups to exist. This was a cool video thanks @Screencrush!
It seems that Madeline Pryor never had the Phoenix force in her. After the Phoenix helped Cable, Jean said the Phoenix was finally gone. When Madeline was angry, she only changed into the Goblin Queen. So the 90s Phoenix was the real Jean Grey.🤷🏿
I think that Phoenix moment is fine they wanted to get it out of the way they don't want to have it as a crutch so as long as they don't use it from here on out it's better to get it over with
When you think about it Logan has this same situation with him going to other versions of himself and not knowing who he is or the memories he possess
Cool video!
"The aching and the breaking is the making of a soul." - The Residents.
Just because someone doesn’t have memory of who they are, doesn’t make them not who they are. If that was the case, then amnesiacs and people with Alzheimer’s aren’t themselves. Something that can change when they regain their memory or become lucid….
Im surprised that Gamora in GITG3 didn't come up. Though her situation is much less complicated.
This is fantastic, please do more stuff like this. Can we please have greater philosophical discussions about this bonkers, wacko universe, more videos, talking about the economics maybe the MCU? How does social work happen in this universe? Are businesses becoming pro mutant to make money, like when companies are real gay for pride month and then come August 1. They don’t do anything to support the gay community anymore? you know stuff like that?
I think I've got a pretty good idea. When she might have been switched. Now hear me out on this. The first idea I have cause remember. There have been several times gene has not been with the x men. We can exclude the Phoenix dark Phoenix thing. Because she was in space that whole time. And then she came back, but let's try. The savage land Jean was with sinister for quite a while before the x men had arrived plus sinister's men had to keep the x men busy before bringing them to the citadel, so I'm gonna assume that when he gene in Xavier. And more went to sleep that night. That might be when she was cloned. But remember clones need a while to grow. Unlike the Mary Jane clone in Spider-Man, the animated series that was taken DN. A from hydromann after e was cloned. Well, it was added to hydro man if you will. She immediately was cloned into an adult. So it could be possible that miles. Warren may may possibly have work with mr. Sinister, possibly again. This is a hypothesis possibility. The second idea I have is. I'm trying to think of any other times gene has been up when Apocalypse had sinister. Bring her to the access of time. She could have been clone then too. Because remember she was gone for quite a while. Almost 23 days I think it was 3 days. I don't know, but with Apocalypse messing with time. That could have also have done some altering. But even though Xavier was with Jean at the very end of that, he was not with her at the start of it when the nasty boys sinister's crew had grabbed her. So those are my only to thoughts of win. Jean might have been switched. The club made not have needed to have time to age that much. This isn't exactly gallata from the DCA u. And she started out as a call in the took a while. But at least we knew that clone she wasn't super girl. We knew the difference but yeah that's kind of my idea
You have Document A... you make an exact copy... they're now both Document A, yet different (so Document A and Document A1). You start making marks on Document A and making different marks on Document A1. They're not the same anymore. Each has it's own distinguishing traits. If you made the EXACT same marks on both copies then they'd still be technically the same document, yet Document A1 would still be a copy of A (though to the naked eye... they're identical). That's the issue here with Jean and Madelyn. For their to be confusion as to who is who, they would have to mirror one another's actions, attitudes, and choices IDENTICALLY. What's throwing everyone off is the fact that their memories "update" and sync with one another. If not for that action, then there'd be no question that they're two distinct people with a shared past. But that's sloppy writing. Think about it... when Jean get's angry at Madelyn and Scott for they psychic tryst, does Madelyn also remember and feel herself being angry at what she's done? No. It would be SO confusing trying to live TWO lives at the same time and make sense of it! Jean could be watching a ballgame and Madelyn could be rollerblading at 6pm on a Friday... and EACH would have to remember experiencing BOTH AT THE SAME EXACT TIME! No, that doesn't work. Jean should have her memories up until she's switched with Madelyn (and after she escapes) and Madelyn should have Jean's memories up to that time but also her OWN memories from that time forward. Each person is defined by his / her experiences and choices.
Twins are identical clones but they both have souls because they have separate lives and minds just because they share experiences doesn't mean difference is finger print and voice inflection but there than that u can compare the clones due 2 there ages I Believe they both have an identity
I can explain. I think. The phoenix is dormant much like Wolverine's berserker mode. He can't control it. Its triggered when in dire life threatening moments. You saw phoenix appear when Jean sunk into the water. She appeared, did her thing then disappeared. Later on Jean will be able to control or conjure the phoenix at will.
Memory doesnt just make who you are. As best clearly stated. I am assuming in the cloning of memory that somehow the OG Jean memory where taken or fragmented into the clone to create this confusion. Also. Throughout the OG series Sinster was trying to get Jean. If he all ready her why would he try to kidnap her? I think that during or sometime after Beyond Good and Evil Sinster kidnapped Jean to make Madelyn. I agree that Madelyn just shares Jean"s memory of the Phoenix but the Phoenix would know the OG from a clone.
The original was the one that was violated kidnapped experimented on. The clone didn’t experience any of that. Plus being a clone she was probably planted for bad reasons which makes her untrustworthy.
Reunion is when the switch happened in XTAS
1:34 Magneto was in a position to see the switch
This was an awesome reach of a write up! Collegiate level dope!
In the show, madaline says that it wont matter read magneto mind because its only at this point in time etc...
Puppy Doug 😍😍😍😍
I think this question was answered in the movie The Matrix... real is not defined by sensory or memory, but what you choose to believe and how you act based on it. They are both the real Jean while both are different... like Loki variants. Just bc we are used to how 616 Loki looks doesn't mean the other Lokis are not the original. Or in the case of twins... a single cell dividing into 2 identical cells.
This is why I love this channel. Thank you Ryan for always going deep and relevant!
This subject is extremely complicated but the way i look at it is that Jean and Madelyne are kinda like NAS servers storing Data i think they are permanently linked by their shared psychic power.
Mr Sinister Cloned Jean to create Madelyne and i can only assume transferred Jeans memories to Madelyne giving her her sense of self as "Jean".
As Jeans memories were transferred it is likely the reason Jean is unable to recall her memories as they were stripped, using the NAS annalogy Mr Sinister used Cut and Paste rather than Copy and Paste to transfer the memories.
But like 2 Nas servers set to back up and Sync I think that when Jean and Madelyne's minds are both active their shared psychic connection acts like a bridge gradually syncing up their memories.
I think Mr Sinister kept Jean mostly in a form of Stasis which means her mind was inactive and unable to connect to Madelyne, when she wakes up knowing nothing of herself she escapes Mr Sinisters lab and her powers start to passively sync with Madelyne allowing memories to slowly bleed accross the passive connection firstly making her know she needed to get to the X-men but also how to physically get there.
Once they are aware of each others existence and start to actively Psychicly interact with each other that passive connection becomes active to copy the missing info from Madelyn back to Jean to restore the memory damage Mr Sinister caused during the original memory transfer like the scene of Jean's childhood, madelyne remembers it but Jean is recovering that memory from Madelyn restoring it to her own psyche.
I think that the memory transfer goes a step further than recovering lost memory as it also transfers any memorys that Madelyne personally identifys as "Jean's" memories which extend as far as the point that she personally excepts she is not "Jean" this is why the real Jean remembers Madelyne's pregnancy as at the time she identified herself as "Jean"
Any memory labeled as belonging to "Jean Grey" is backed up and synced between them solidifying the base persona of Jean which they both extend from, Jean continuing the persona and Madelyne using it as a foundation but branching off as an individual (Kinda like Thomas Riker in Star Trek).
Only once they both identify themselves as seperate distinct individuals does their bond stop syncing their memories until the point where madelyne dies where the bond affectively does a large info dump into Jean's mind transfering Madelyne's memories as an individual to Jean which in it's own way now muddies the waters once again as to who Jean is as she amalgamates the sum of both Data sets, she starts wearing her hair down, she states while fighting Mr Sinister that Madelyne fights with her now.
But while she now has all Madelyne's memories she is not Madelyne as it's information not emotionally linked recollections as you can see by Madelyne recognising Cable with a look but Jean needed to link to Cable's mind before she could connect it to her knowledge of Madelyne recognising Cable.
The reason that Cyclops loved more
Madelyn instead of Jean Grey was the full loialty of Madelyn towards Scott.
Continuity of recognition.
I have a key for my car. I go to the hardware store and they make a copy. Both keys are the real key because I recognize them as the same function, same purpose. I recognize them as the same nature.
I have a chain of memories that comprise a part of my identity. So I have continuity of recognition that this is me. The person I met 20 years ago and doesn't have me as a point of reference or pattern in their memories may not recognize me. I would be a different person to them. And if we got reacquainted, they might connect new experiences to old memories and suddenly I am the same person. Things can be the same thing or different based on frame of reference or recognition.
This is the horror and tragedy of Madeline. She knows herself as Jean, she has continuity of recognition. But with very little provocation, all the people she knows and loves the most suddenly and pointlessly break that recognition for no reason. By declaring all of a sudden, "you aren't real" when she knows she is real is a fundamental betrayal.
Big problems with this. 1. From an internal perspective, there are breaks in continuity when a person blacks out, goes under general anesthesia, every time they go to sleep, and every time they forget past experiences. I take it for granted that the me who wakes up is the same me who went to sleep because I remember being that me, but in a sense, past me, especially a past me I have forgotten, is simply gone. 2. Qualitative identity is not self-same identity. If you stepped into a machine that made an exact duplicate of you, then one of the duplicates would randomly be shot, I bet it would make a difference to you WHICH "you" gets to continue living. It's not a conundrum for objects. For conscious beings, it's a huge puzzle.
@@BlackShardStudio Continuity isn't meant to be literal, mathematical, logical identity. It is a chain, an understanding. The person before sleep remembers and recognizes themselves before and after. The same person. And yes, if you were to build continuity of recognition on a specific moment of you, then in a mere moment after that, you would not be the same under that definition. That's why that's not a good way to define identity. :)
The machine makes 2 of me. As soon as there are two, their independent continuity begins to diverge. Of course they would not want to die. And over time they would be different people.
There's no difference a person or an object. The frame of reference matters.
Ok this is a strong reach and it's just my opinion I think switched happened during X-Men the animated series Till Death Do Us Part (Part 2 of 2) because when the X-Men arrive to save Scott and Jean from Mr.Sinster he was removing genetic material from Scott and Scott and Jean hadn't to long had woken up in the lab after being attacked on the boat I just literally watched this episode and I'm just throwing it out there plus that episode also give you a back drop into the start of Morphs trauma that he suffered at the hands of Mr Sinister once again just throwing this out there
He keeps saying that Madelyn was Jean for 20 something years…we don’t know when they were actually switched. I believe it was definitely after the Phoenix saga. Otherwise Jean wouldn’t have been able to summon the PF. In comic book time that’s only been a short while. Which also means Scott’s wedding was to Jean not Madelyn. Juan didn’t have the memories at first-that’s true-but it was because she had been in a coma! It takes a while to get reoriented. It doesn’t make her any less “her”. I do feel bad for Madelyn…she hasn’t done anything wrong. But she’s not Jean.
I live this, please do more