I enjoyed the video but am confused about what is supposed to be surprising about it. It was mentioned a few times how surprising this was going to be but he seemed to say just what I would expect someone knowledgeable in the Divine Council worldview to say. Is that what the video is referring to in saying it could be surprising? Is it not something he said that was surprising but the fact that Wright supports the view that's surprising?
Austin Farrer was a close friend of CS Lewis. One of my songs inspired by my thesis on Farrer says: "When we say there's a way To the living God And say Jesus is the One, We're not picking a color from the rainbow; We're looking at the sun...."
@@melaOOK NT Wright is known and accepted as one of the leading NT scholars alive today, he is also a NT historian, and quite possibly the top one alive today, but he is not acquainted with Heiser's works from what I have seen.
@@andyk2218 Heiser interviewed NT Wright on the Naked Bible Podcast episode 131 which took place at SBL in 2016. I was disappointed that it seemed Wright wasn't familiar with Heiser's primary book.
I discovered The Unseen Realm and Dr Michael Heiser a few months ago and honestly I can’t get enough. I have read all of his books and started listening to his Podcasts in order from the beginning. I feel as though the Veil has been lifted from my eyes and so many things make so much more sense now. I now read the Bible through a whole new light. I am saddened that Dr Heiser has passed on and we won’t get any more teachings from him, but am so grateful that he left us with so much information!
Same here. I had a faint idea that the world was very different at pre-flood times….. but when God introduced me to Dr Heiser it was like I was hit by nuclear bomb of truth and my eyes got opened a bit more to see the reality of God and his character.
@@DA-yd2ny Shepherds chapel is on TH-cam , he has taught this truth for fifty years ....he is literally tge best bible teach since the Apostle Paul , Pastor Murray and his son .
What is your opinion on his ‘Angels’ and his ‘Demons’ books? I’m thinking of getting them, but I better re-read Unseen Realm first because I’m fuzzy on my first reading of it.
I hope by the time I've seen this, Wright will have read The Unseen Realm. I'm actually quite surprised he was so unfamiliar with it. He would benefit from Heiser's full treatment.
I enjoyed Heiser's insights regarding ancient texts from a secular view, had considerable correspondence @20 years ago. His admission that he knew biblical cosmology, yet rejected it so he could indulge in the sci-fi delusion is very telling.
Would he? I find it encouraging that they’ve both reached the same conclusions independently. How important is the cross pollination of ideas when a clear understanding of the original text is what matters?
I don't remember where in one of his presentations, could be simultaneously to an illustrated model of the biblical cosmology view, he elaborated on sci-fi being THE reason he rejected it. He authored quite a bit of sci-fi. I'm pretty sure there was nothing financial about it, just worldview.
@@nosretep1960I've been following Heisers work for many years now but I've never heard him say he disbelieved the Bible because of science fiction. Are these labels you're attaching to what he said? If anything this is precisely the OPPOSITE of Heisers' position. He got famous because he was a frequent guest on paranormal and radio ufo shows because he was a well versed DEBUNKER of people like Zechariah Sitchen.
Great video! Although, I'm quite surprised that Mr. Wright has never heard of Dr. Heiser or the Unseen Realm. I really miss Dr. Heiser. Thankfully he left us with a treasure trove of his work!
Thank you so much! Wright has mainly been focused on Paul and the NT in his work, although he is very balanced in his approach with the Hebrew Scriptures. Heiser had more of a Hebrew Scriptures focus to his study, and so many immediately falsely labeled Heiser as fringe, so the disconnect seems reasonable. That’s why I was so pumped to make the introduction thanks for watching and for commenting💯✅🔔
Dr. Wright does so many interviews that it's impossible for him to remember them all. Dr. Heiser interviewed Wright in episode 131 of the Naked Bible Podcast
Doc Heiser changed my faith life quite literally, my friend. Sent me on a trajectory and closer relationship with God, than I ever had. He was a good teacher!
I have been going through and listening to all of Michael heiser podcast for the last year in my studies it has increased my knowledge of the Bible and the life of Christ old and New Testament x 10. In the past i have read thruogh the old Testament 5 times and the New Testament 25 times this study on his podcast brings the whole Bible from beginning to end together with great 2nd Temple and first century jewish Christian world views, good luck to all believers who follow this path forwards you won't be disappointed. God Bless you !
Praise to Our Triune God Father Son Holy Spirit who is Victorious and invited us (the Church) to participate in His Glorious Mission of Redemption. Thank you so for sharing this video episode. Blessings from a Region that darkness is being defeated by the Light of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
I’m just working through Unseen Realm and learning a great deal. It has challenged many of my pre-suppositions and enlarged my understanding. NT Wright is always interesting and helpful too. What a great channel.
I don’t know how you “review” an author and his work when you have not read/studied the books he wrote. I followed Heiser for several years and last summer I listened to his audio book “Unseen Realm” at least ten times. Heiser’s books have helped me connect so many dots in my understanding of the Bible. Everyone needs to listen to Heiser’s Supernatural Seminar series on YT. Thankfully he was very prolific on YT.
You should all check the book by Andrei Orlov on Jewish Mysticism, especially the chapter on Worthless Mysteries (of the Fallen Angels). It is fascinating. You will not be able to put the book down. His trail of thought is very similar to that of Heiser but presented in a different way. Both are eye openers. The Unseen Realm should be compared to and studied alongside the Early Church commentaries and homilies. We cannot dismiss Scripture and the original Apostolic Tradition Jesus taught his original apostles. I am currently revisiting the Unseen Realm. I cannot deny that it greatly assists Christians to further understand how God thinks and His Cosmology. The research of M. Heiser is remarkably astounding, and profoundly deep. He presents elements very few have ever discussed or thought about.
Agreed. Heiser's work if phenom! He mailed me his PhD Dissertation on the Council of the Gods, and it just blew me out of the water! Tremendous thinker and explorer of the ancient Hebrew language and thought.
Wonderful. I dedicated our humble podcast to the work of late Dr. Heiser. He inspired all of us on the channel to think differently, in a deeper and Ancient Near East context, showing us that true biblical theology is deeply supernatural!
Love this conversation! This answers so many questions I have had since reading Heiser’s Unseen Realm, Demons etc. Thank you for asking the very things bouncing around in my head!!!!
Yes, @@bradevers8718, Dr. Heiser interviewed Wright in 2016 at a biblical studies conference in San Antonio. Very quickly, they begin discussing the atonement and both agree that one should NOT land on a singular view the atonement but, rather have a view that the atonement "is a multi-valent thing."
He really didn’t address what Dr. Heiser was laying out. I have learned so much from Dr. heiser. He does a great job showing the spiritual powers/war in heaven when Christ was on the cross.
I agree we didn’t get to cover everything. But for the small moment of time that I had to bring this out I feel like we got some good coverage. I wish I could do a whole episode with him just on Heiser and the unseen realm. But I’m grateful for this moment and looking forward to what the future holds for more just like it. Cheers🔔✅❤️
@@ringthembells143 I appreciate your ministry and am learning a lot. Over the last couple of years, I’ve read numerous NT Wright books and also Dr. Heiser's. I wish I could buy cliff notes for their books. They are very thick books (most I bought on Kindle due to their size). I’ve read slowly and have a dictionary with me 😅. But both of these men are fascinating and certainly have opened my eyes. With Dr. Heiser, I learned about the Divine Counsel, there were “ three falls” in the first 11 chapters of Genesis, and how all of that weaves together makes sense. Dr. N.T. Wright and his focus on the New Testament regarding no rapture ( makes sense to me), eternal life isn’t heaven, but living with a “Transphysical” (a word created by N.T. Wright) body as Jesus had after His resurrection makes good sense. Also, his coining the phrase “life after life after death” took me a while to understand and agree with him. We die and go to be with Jesus ( Paradise of heaven), which is like a intermediate spot not our final destination in a disembodied conscience state, waiting for the last bodily resurrection on the last day where we meet Christ in the air, not to be whisked off to a bodily heaven but return to the new earth with Christ to live forever just as God created Adam and Eve to live forever with Him. We are on a journey back to Eden. This time, it will be a global Eden, and God has permanently locked and sealed in another dimension: death, Hades, evil, Satan, etc., in a fiery pit that none of these things can ever escape from and return to the new heaven and new earth which will have blended together with no separation (if I understood N.T. Wright). So, in the end, both Heiser and Wright come to the same conclusion: we are bodily living in a perfect, incorruptible body on a new earth. Wright, I didn't answer Heiser's question, and while in Psalms 82, the members of the divine council for allowing worship of themselves, God says they will die like mortal men, Wright states according to Paul all of them will be forgiven and will all fall in line at the end. ( That makes no sense.) I think he was just promoting another book and took off in another direction. 😮 But I am just a layman and learning, so I am only giving you what I’ve understood but could be dead wrong! 😮
The only LEGENDS I know, walked in the "manifestation" of the Holy Spirit.....do you? Does He answer your prayers (and those you fellowship with)? Most of those that do or did are dead, some very recent (last 10-20 years).....the proof text and 'exegesis' that I hear often are thoughtful and well studied with "0" manifestation of the Holy Spirit! It might as well be pronounced and "exit Jesus". Quote as many scriptures as you can (elegantly even) but realise we are in a famine for the WORD of God!
@@projectdesign4675Calm your nerves man. He's just expressing the respect and adoration that many of us feel for Dr. Heiser. He lead me to Christ! So stop chastising already. God Bless you. My the peace of Jesus Christ be with you.
@@projectdesign4675 I don’t think he meant legend, in the sense of super natural legend. Just a human who did a great job explaining the supernatural. I took a giant step forward after reading his books. he was a godly man, and so intelligent, but very down to earth and very humble. I miss his teaching very much. I know he’s enjoying heaven as we speak!
I truly appreciate the content and men on this podcast. It's simply superior and you all definitely have the right guests on this show! God bless and Praise be to God Almighty!!
Love your show! You shouldn’t be asking questions that your guests haven’t heard of. How is it possible that Tom hasn’t heard of Heiser? Please send him Heiser’s book.
What a short brilliant interview! Thank for wrestling with this, and approaching the topic of supernatural Christianity and working through brilliant trusted theologians! So refreshing!
I agree with you. I have seen some commenting that N.T.Wright must read Heiser's book first before saying these. I bet to differ, because this is Biblical principle of understanding the scripture that he layed out much more clearly.
Though I’m interested in knowing about the unseen realm i also think no one really knows or understands what it is like or what exists there. We will know soon enough, it will be wonderous if of course we are saved. I pray every day that he finds me worthy 🙏
You are more than worthy and that was proven both on the cross and at the Resurrection. God looks For allegiance not certainty. You seem to have allegiance in spades trust that you are worthy and welcome in the kingdom of God!❤️🔔✅
@@ringthembells143 why thank you i appreciate the kind words i try not to judge or get mean and i always look forward to new views on matters because we are all on a voyage of learning. Have a wonderful day.
I think not understanding this forgotten and (running) theme throughout the entire scripture is something that has SERIOUSLY held the church back from accomplishing and being what we are really supposed to be...
There is nothing more likely to cause endless debates than these sorts of topics. Judgement is always God’s no matter the arguments. Blessings to fellow believers
Sorry, but as I have told you many times, MH was not a Christian and did not understand the Bible. He was the blind leading the blind. Repent, and learn what the truth of the Bible actually is.
@@forthosewithearstohear6219you should really try and explain your position. Everything Heiser ever taught, i've back checked and it's rock solid. It is what the WORD actually says, rather than some foolish opinion or false teaching.
@@forthosewithearstohear6219 cast first stones do you? You should go wash your robes and pull that plank out of your eye. Why not share your superior knowledge of the Bible with all of the world as NT Wright and MH do and we will let the truth of such matters be self evident. Sir, your tongue has revealed the true nature of your heart.
@@jasonleveck8546 ,...My position is as I stated, MH was not a Christian and did not understand the Bible. He was a false teacher and nothing more than the blind leading the blind. The problem is, the whole church is filled with people that think they are Christians when they are not. The fact is, there is no people more Biblically illiterate and more opposed to the truth of the Bible than are those who claim to be Christians. You are a perfect example of this. All the apostate churches fake christians absolutely refuse to acknowledge that they are deceived. Their favorite lines are, oh, you have a plank in your eye, who do you think you are to judge me. The truth is, those like you will only listen to those who have planks in both eyes. The scriptures below all apply to you. Repent! "Correction is grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: and he that hateth reproof shall die." Proverbs 15:10 KJV "This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing." Jeremiah 13:10 KJV "O LORD, are not thine eyes upon the truth? thou hast stricken them, but they have not grieved; thou hast consumed them, but they have refused to receive correction: they have made their faces harder than a rock; they have refused to return." Jeremiah 5:3 KJV
@@BibleandaBicycle ,....Your reaction only confirms the truth I have spoken for your edification. Like your Godless, blind, lost, and deceived fathers, when anyone comes to you without a plank in their eye, you reject them as your Ignorant fathers did to Jesus. You will only accept and listen to those who have planks in both eyes like MH and nt wright. This all applies to you as well,.... @jasonleveck8546 ,...My position is as I stated, MH was not a Christian and did not understand the Bible. He was a false teacher and nothing more than the blind leading the blind. The problem is, the whole church is filled with people that think they are Christians when they are not. The fact is, there is no people more Biblically illiterate and more opposed to the truth of the Bible than are those who claim to be Christians. You are a perfect example of this. All the apostate churches fake christians absolutely refuse to acknowledge that they are deceived. Their favorite lines are, oh, you have a plank in your eye, who do you think you are to judge me. The truth is, those like you will only listen to those who have planks in both eyes. The scriptures below all apply to you. Repent! "Correction is grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: and he that hateth reproof shall die." Proverbs 15:10 KJV "This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing." Jeremiah 13:10 KJV "O LORD, are not thine eyes upon the truth? thou hast stricken them, but they have not grieved; thou hast consumed them, but they have refused to receive correction: they have made their faces harder than a rock; they have refused to return." Jeremiah 5:3 KJV
Its quite clear in the Bible that God acknowledges other gods. Thats why he mentions getting justice on the gods of Egypt. The plauges are actually represented by egyptian gods. The frogs? There is actually an egyptian goddess with a frog head, etc. Jeremiah 46:25, Exodus 12:12, Numbers 33:4
The late Michael Heiser's conclusions do not agree with N.T. Wright's about the evil gods and powers. Heiser would say that they are not reconciled under Christ in any way, rather, they are eternally doomed.
N T Wright is wrong on this point. Please see Isaiah 24:21-22 "It shall come to pass in that day that the Lord will punish on high the host of exalted ones, and on the earth the kings of the earth. They will be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, And will be shut up in the prison; After many days they will be punished" (NKJV). Also Revelation 20 says Satan shall be bound in the bottomless pit for a thousand years. Isaiah 24:21-22 says Satan's crew "the host of exalted ones" shall be gathered in the pit also. This is what reconciliation is going to mean for the "sons of God" referred to my Heiser.
@@reubenoni let me help you unpack your position that is giving you unwarranted certainty about cosmic issues. First let’s start with humans. Our Lord Jesus in Matthew 13 specifies very clearly that we as humans will never know proper judgment in between good and evil. Meaning we can’t separate who’s going to make it into the kingdom and who is not going to make it into the kingdom. we will be wrong in our judgment to decide the eternal fate of anyone. This truth stretches past humanity and into the divine realm. Were you there when God made the universe and told the stars where to hang? Did you help God hold back the waters and create the garden of Eden? The answer is no. So you can have an opinion, even an estimated guess that is dressed with humility. But that’s about it… Other than EVIL, SIN, DEATH and the Satan there is no point where the Bible is ever giving you certainty of anyone’s specific final judgment. The powers that God instituted to rule the nations will be redeemed under the power of the cross and resurrection. What does that mean? We will find out. Until then we have a bias of hope, because of Jesus. We are required to remain hopeful about What God is doing for all of the universe. I hope that makes sense, stick around and join our community. We need people like you!
@@ringthembells143 Brother, please don’t accuse this commenter of being prideful and errant in his thinking. He is stating exactly what Michael Heiser attests to from scripture in his classic book, Unknown Realms. He is not personally judging the eternal destiny of the spiritual authorities and powers who rebelled against God in heaven and were cast out, he is properly quoting scripture.
My dear brother. You are doing a wonderful job. I feel the need, to keep praying for your mission. Be smart stay strong and God bless. A mighty warrior for God's Kingdom
Hey Brother; wow, the things you said in the intro had me on the edge of my seat in anticipation! Once the video concluded, however, i felt let down and still left with unanswered questions, with no help from N.T Wright. Please let me explain. You asked an amazing and well-known scholar to simply give an assessment of a clip from Unseen Realm and by extension, i assumed, of Dr. Heiser's view of scripture in general. You set up the stage very well and concisely but Wright crawfished on us, imo. Wright responded - but to what i'm not sure; Rather, your beloved guest did the best job ever of completely side-stepping and re-directing and NOT giving a straightforward response to what you asked for! He did admit that he had not read Unseen Realm (a real tragedy that) but from the clip you played for him, Dr. Wright would have known what you were getting at, surely. After the clip had played, all you asked for was simply his response to the clip. He looks up and i saw he was smiling. What's that smile about? I saw nothing laughable in the clip at all. What was it about the clip that he found amusing? Then in his belittling reply, Tom says, "Yeah, um, you want to put 'that' (referring to the clip) - you want to put that together with passages like 1 Cor. 8, where Paul...yada yada." At that moment I was thinking, Tom! It is precisely the "THAT" that you're being asked to weigh in on! Tom also added, "...I want to bring Colossians into the argument as well.." Argument? What argument? You're deflecting from giving a response to the Unseen Realm clip! Who are you arguing with? What is this argument! He only briefly gives a nod to Psalm 82, saying that the word Elohim there and in other places, Can be used to refer to these other beings or to the Sons of God, as they're sometimes called. But he doesn't stop and elaborate. After going on a bit and trying to connect old and new testament he said, "That's a complicated set of stories." Stories? At that point I thought maybe he does believe in actual Spiritual beings having rule over the nations even today, but the vague language he used left me wondering - and THEN he brings up his late friend Walter Wink? I thought, okay, here we go; he's more aligned with Wink than with Heiser, or is he? ISDK Near the end, Brother Tom says, "These are great questions and I wish more people were wrestling with them." "Questions? "Them"? OP only asked one thing of you Sir. It was as if he intentionally went out of his way to NOT directly respond to or speak his mind or express his beliefs on the Divine council worldview! I was hoping to hear him give an assessment like, 'Yes this Dr. Heiser has a firm grasp of the Spiritual realm and how the plan of God Does involve His 'angelic' family to this day and I suppose I should read his book!" - or something Like that. Right now, i'm trying to figure out why this theologian would NOT directly respond to the topic at hand; Is the Divine Council Worldview just too controversial? Would a direct response have required him to take a position that could put him in a bad light, or what? I wonder. My great respect for N.T. Wright has dropped down a notch and I'm still left wondering whether Wright believes in actual geographically placed Elohim and their progress throughout history OR whether he holds the same understanding as his friend Walter Wink - that wicked Elohim do not exist and the principalities and powers are nothing more than a systemic, institutionally entrenched and EARTHLY power structure! I may not have all the facts to that but Tom adds here that "Many passages in scripture don't give us precise analyses, precise definitions of what these powers are". 'Many don't'? That implies the 'Some do'! @Ring Them Bells; let me ask you this; after Tom was done talking, did you feel he gave a satisfying response to the Unseen Realm clip and get his opinion of Dr. Heiser? Did he satisfy the questions you gave to us in the intro? I am keen to know where/how we should be directing our spiritual warfare or even if we should be. I did not hear that aspect mentioned. Also at the end you said Thank God for you and for Michael Byrd for writing this book. I'm like, what book? After re-watching this entire video again, i heard you tell Wright, "Now this 'next' clip I want to share with you..." This has me guessing that this video is but a portion of a longer interview? Maybe if i could hear that? Forgive me any undue harshness. I had hoped Wright would be talking Dr. Heiser's language, so yeah, i'm a bit miffed. Blessings to you Brother
The first Time I heard NT Wright weigh in on these discussions about The Unseen Realm, I completely misunderstood him, thinking he was in opposition to the theological stance Michael Heiser presented in his writings and lectures. NT goes into such detail , working hard to bring everything in a wider context that I think some of his listeners get lost in it all. But as I continued listening and relistening I could see that he was not presenting an opposing view to Heiser, but a complimentary one. Still, I might not fully grasp what NT is communicating on any topics. Before I heard him speak I heard some others claim there was no rapture, pointing out that while that word itself did not appear in the manuscripts, the term “caught up” does. At that point I just thought we were getting into semantics. Personally I believe a spectacular supernatural event will occur and it will involve the church being caught up to meet Christ whilst on his way into the earthly realm to establish his millennial reign.
Love your channel bro. So glad you are helping inform those who are disconnected from this scholarship. It's a tough pill for many red blooded Americans to handle, but necessary.
Wonderful Video! Thank you both for the inspiration. All for the glory of God. Come Lord Jesus, pour forth your Spirit, create in us your creation, and renew the face of the earth! Amen.
My first time hearing of J.T Wright and this channel. I've only recently been watching a handful of Michael Heiser's videos, stream interviews, and a few of his podcast episodes. There've been a few things I heard Heiser say that I think I was in disagreement with, though I cannot now remember whst. But the overall topic about the Elohim and the heavenly council has been stirring my interest. Especially after seeing a few of those verses Heiser points out. Though as a layman, I have to say I get mentally fatigued trying to comprehend many of his talking points pver the course of 20-30 minutes.
Amen to Mr. Wright. It does not matter what he has read. He nailed the truth. Heiser is great and God use him. But the true Church will do exactly what Wright said to do . If we need to take up the sword we will have Him in front of us behind us and on our flanks. No King but King Jesus.
Dr. Heiser and the unseen realm has really opened my eyes to the Scriptures. It's almost like I read the Bible 2D and after the unseen realm I read it in 3D.
The documentary The Unseen Realm is online. He used primarily canonical scripture. It's worth learning. There is a world above that influences the world below.
I am disappoited that Tom Wright had not read Michael Heiser's full arguement before discussing it. Why reinvent the wheel? I have huge respect for both scholars and delighted this is reaching the mainstream!!
What Wright says here backs up what Heiser repeatedly said about his own work. He said 1) nothing he teaches about scripture is novel to him, and 2) he is only popularizing what is discussed in Biblical scholarship. Thus, it should not be surprising that Wright already knows this stuff even if he can't recall Dr. Heiser, who informed we laymen of these things.
Heiser didn't popularise it, though. I'd never heard of Mike, but knew that there are angels- some of them fallen and refered to as gods by Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks and Romans. Paul says that Jesus is the name above all names. Pagan Rome converted to Christianity over a number of centuries. In the latter days we live in, it has become obvious that the old gods are making a come back, but, in reality, Jesus name remains above them
Bad logic, Pilgrim. To popularize something means to make it generally accepted and liked. Your knowing beforehand about the Divine Council does not mean Heiser did not make it generally accepted and like by a large population of people.
@R9500pro1 Bad reading skills. Plus, there is also this meaning of the word "popularize ": "make (something technical, scientific, or academic) accessible or interesting to the general public by presenting it in a readily understandable form." So your stipulation to support your misreading also fails.
I appreciate this conversation regarding the divine council in the scriptures, which many more Christians need to take seriously. At 8:57, N.T. Wright says these powers still have some strength left, referring to the book of Revelations, anticipating their end at the second coming of Christ in the end time. I've had to review my eschatological understanding when taking Jesus' words seriously, understanding the OT prophetic language He used, and His divine council worldview, which was the same as the NT's writers. This made me realize that the end time spoken of in Scripture was referring to the end of the Old Covenant Age, which did come to pass in the 1st century, just as Jesus foretold and just as the inspired writers anticipated. This means the adversary (the satan) has met his end. That realization made me question the evil we see and experience in this world and the spiritual adversarial phenomena I have personally overcome in Jesus' name. Meditating on this matter in prayer, I received the understanding that, indeed, the satan (the adversary) of Israel was none other than 'the prince of Persia' who violated his territorial authority and ruled over Judaea as the Jews brought the traditions of Babylon when they returned from exile. Hence, the rule of the Pharisees (Parsi) and the other ruling sects developed during the 2nd temple period. Jesus fulfilled the OT law and prophecy and brought an end to the Old Covenant practice while also bringing judgment upon the rebels of God and their spiritual forces through the hands of the Romans, destroying the temple and the city in the same manner, God 'came in the clouds' bringing destruction to Egypt, Edom, etc. in the OT period. This event in AD 70 also marked a change for all the saints, dead and alive, in that the OT saints were raised from Sheol to God's presence so that Sheol was terminated forever. The New Covenant saints, Jew and Gentile, received the full ramifications of being called the sons of God on earth and in heaven to represent Christ on earth, bring healing to the nations, and overthrow the remaining adversaries of the nations in Jesus' name. In other words, we, the body of Christ, are His second coming ongoing on earth.
I have yet to listen to the podcast but I believe it was at a conference, I wish I had known before the interview as I would have brought it up. it is a mission of this channel to help get Heiser’s work out into the mainstream scholarly world and the world of churchianity
I grew up in the Roman church but I wasn't serious about it. In fact, I left religion in early adulthood and came back later in life. I think that's why I was Open to Dr. Heiser and his Divine Council worldview. It made sense. I wasn't burdened by years of certain doctrines, even considering I was saved about 27 years ago. Honestly, I'm not a fan of Wright. I find that many people are unwilling to even think about the supernatural, not to mention non-canonical books. It's sad really as they are missing out on so much. also Heiser's saying we need to have the 1st century Jews in our heads. Excellent!
A great tandem to Heiser's Unseem Realm are the books by Barnshouse "The Invisible War", Thieme's "Angelic Conflict" and Bob Luginbill's "Satanic Rebellion". I easily picked up the divine council view because of them.
perhaps I am ignorant ["Neuro diverse or not], But, I have yet to run into an actual contradiction between the two gentlemen. Love to listen to either because, the way my particular mind works... IF "church" could be like this, I might not to be so bored... PS and to NT mi brother... What? are you also ASD 1? You answer the question while never giving an answer... I love it!
@@bobs8005 I’m pretty sure he says that all those spiritual beings and authorities have been reconciled. I agree with you in regard to that’s what happened, but it doesn’t sound like what Wright is saying.
@@ClintByars I’ve listened to a lot of Wright and he gets criticism for being a bit verbose so it does take a couple times relistening to him at times. I’ll replay it as well
I agree, Clint, those fallen elohim will not be reconciled. Jude 1;6, 2Peter 2;4 and Ephesians 6;12, among other passages, refer to the fate of these spiritual principalities.
Listening to Dr. Wright, it sounds as if he is speaking to his own interpretation of these Scripture passages and theological issues without truly engaging Dr. Heiser's interpretations. I never heard him answer the question in a satisfying way. I respect Dr. Wright but I'm not even sure he realizes that he sidestepped the issue. I don't doubt supernatural powers. How can anyone read the Bible and think that is beyond my comprehension. I must admit I had hoped for more in this discussion.
The idea from Col 1:18 that previously disloyal spiritual beings will be reconciled is interesting - the text certainly seems to point that way. It is, like many other issues in scripture, to be held in tension with other scriptures referenced in the OT of judgment for these disloyal spiritual beings. God will sort it out. Just like passages that speak of Israel being judged and discarded and yet other promises of their future near total salvation.
Isa 44 6 “This is what the Lord says, He who is the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of armies: ‘I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me. 7 Who is like Me? Let him proclaim and declare it; And, let him confront Me [f]Beginning with My establishing of the ancient [g]nation. Then let them declare to them the things that are coming And the events that are going to take place. 8 Do not tremble and do not be afraid; Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it? And you are My witnesses. Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.’”
Dr. Heiser interviewed Dr. Wright on a couple of occasions and presented some of his ideas to him. I wonder if he remembers that. I'm sure he's a lightning rod for many interviewers and people who want to get his opinion on various things.
If that's the case, then we should all be universalists, but I am not because I think part of the reconciliation is the removal from heaven and earth those things which belong in the lake of fire.
Heiser covers this extensively in his book Angels, no 'reconciliation' did not mean to the New Testament authors restoration or salvation for spiritual enemy elohim. He probably covers it in his book Demons as well but I have not finished that book yet.
It was a question inside a larger interview going over NT Wrights new book “Jesus and the Powers” here check it out-th-cam.com/video/VZ4N1ptUa2g/w-d-xo.htmlsi=UEBvFG2KP2atpf_m
Hmm NTW was slippery. He didn't really give a thumbs up to Heiser, but skirted around him, suspicious of giving credit to 'gods'. I agree with him - and while Heiser was an eye-opener to the existence and role of the Elohim, there's a certain level of importance given to them by Heiser's teachings that in my view runs counter to a Christian reading.
How am i supposed to pay for these things? Literally, what do i need to say to help our team? What words, specifically? I want to be used in this battle
This means so much to me. God is faithful and taking care of this ministry and for now we ask that you please continue to pray and share the content on other platforms if possible. Things may change and I’m hoping to get RTB established as a Non profit so we can allow people to join in support of they feel led to. Stay Tuned The Beginning is Near ❤️🔔✅
I like N.T. Wright, but one of his weaknesses is a reliance on strictly the Bible from the time period of Jesus. If he has read and taken seriously other writings from that time, the Apocryphal books as we call them, such as 1st Enoch and the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs for instance, he would have a more clear idea of how the Israelites of the time though about gods/sons of gods/angels/divine beings. If anyone is interested, "Apocrypha" by Fr. Stephen De Young gives an introduction to these texts, as well as how the Early Church and later the Eastern Orthodox have viewed and used these texts. Also, if the divine council is of interest to you, a fuller picture is presented in the Lord of Spirits podcast, host by Fr. Stephen De Young and Fr. Stephen Damack, about the spiritual aspects of the Christian Faith. De Young is an Old Testament Bible Scholar, with a focus on the Second Temple Judaism period.
@@ringthembells143 To say that it to say that God only ever worked in the lives of the Israelites, which the Bible directly contradicts. In the OT, the Israelites are told not to bother this group because they were doing God's work and had been given that land by God. In the New Testament, we are told that the very Creation itself points to the Glory of God. Everything is a direct Creation of God, and thus is God inspire, and you are worried about writing.
@@NdxtremePro however… God chose specifically to speak through a specific text and a specific people group. I hope I’m being specific enough. 🔔❤️✅ Because Jesus was very specific about what storyline and what people group he came to fill Full. This is the Jewish narrative of the TANAKH. This Jesus who was crucified and Risen as king of the world the only begotten son of God our Father came from this Jewish text specifically.
If all evil ceased when Jesus came, why is the world so evil? Why are nations and governments so evil? Why is abortion/child sacrifice so prevalent all over the world? What about false religions like Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam etc. No more idolatry? Wars and destruction and hatred are at an all- time high. How come?
Jesus disarmed the ruling powers on the cross but He did not immediately replace them (though he rightfully could have). He sent His disciples out into the world to bring in the inheritance He acquired in defeating death. We are being trained in righteousness so as to replace the wicked powers and principalities even as we bring in the inheritance Jesus died to gain.
The entire history of this world, and humanity, is a story that leads to our ultimate redemption. We and the world are in a fallen state, and WE aren’t going to “work our way out of it”. Nowhere in Scripture is that kind of trajectory indicated; in fact, quite the opposite. The story ends with the physical return of Christ, the transformation of the Church, and the upcoming eternal state. It’s bold and dramatic stuff. And yes, it’s supernatural, a concept that seems to cause many of us to cringe, unfortunately. It’s not something that’s going to be “hammered into shape” by our own efforts.
Quite interesting. My first exposure to N.T. Wright, though I'd seen references. I don't consider the Masorah as authoritative, use the LXX like Jesus and the Apostles. The narrative is QUITE different, let alone translational spin. Throws a wrench in my schedule for a bit as I'm interested.
Wright has some excellent work. He gets flack for his new perspective on Paul but he’s got a solid view on the gospel and kingdom like very few scholars.
N. T. Wright was on an SBL panel, responding to PhD candidate David Burnett's paper that dealt with the very issues raised in Heiser's work regarding the divine council worldview. Im not sure why he still isnt up to speed on this subject. He's had ample opportunity to do so. For the record, I highly regard Wright. I'm just baffled he hasn't read Heiser's work, not to mention his dissertation, on this subject.
After hundreds of repetitions, I'm always struck when yet another Evangelist tells his audience, with what I don't doubt is complete sincerity, that he's here with the "real" truth of the Bible.
OK, I like this guy, Wright. What I'm gathering is because we know Israel is really God's ppl. So anyway, God's ppl Isaac's ppl are God's chosen at first. The ones who were given to the other sons of God. After Jesus took back authority from these gods. They are able to overcome what their ancestors brought them into. By accepting God as their God. These gods are still here today. They've just used many different ways to lead you to idolatry. Therefore, you are under these gods. Have the choice to come back to the true God. Sorry, but churches are part of the leading astray. Whether by actively knowing it or not. Because the church of God is His ppl. I'm not saying all churches are bad. The teachings got tampered with hundreds of years ago. Which led us to not be able to read the Bible in the full perspective. I've been researching this stuff for a while now. I know I may not be fully explaining in detail. It's more the short version
Yes his church are the believers in Christ. When 2 or more gather i will be there. Find a good bible based church or gather a group of like minded people to study the Bible. Never trust any one man only let the Holy Ghost guide you. Stay strong in his word.
@BentIronBins thank you. I know all this already. I'm not brand new to this. I just continue to see and understand things on a deeper level each day. That's because of the Holy Spirit and good ppl like Heiser, Wright, and ppl with these channels. Also, with help from ppl like you. So again, thank you. God bless
The Message Deuteronomy 32:8-9 When the High God gave the nations their stake, gave them their place on Earth, He put each of the peoples within boundaries under the care of divine guardians. But God himself took charge of his people, took Jacob on as his personal concern.
Does anyone have an opinion on tackling NT Wright’s massive 4 volume Christian Origins series (actually 5 volumes if you consider that last volume is so large that it’s two books/parts)? Do you think it’s worth reading it all, or did you think perhaps it’s too wordy and drawn out? Thanks for anyone who can give any comments at all who has read the entire set, I’m considering reading it all, but it’s quite a time commitment.
Monotheism in the Old Testament? Whose is the Commander of the Lord's army who told Joshua to take his shoes off because he was standing on Holy ground?
Near the end, Tom says, "These are great questions - I wish that more people were wrestling with them." Are people NOT wrestling with them bc they're afraid to or bc the subject matter is too spooky or what? I need to hear scholarly debates!
Have you ever heard the song "Anthem" by Leonard Cohen? He has a line that goes Ring the bells that still can ring and I thought of it as soon as I saw your title
@@dogbackwardspodcast No but I’m going to check it out now. Thanks! The Lord gave me this name from a Bob Dylan song with the same title. You should check it out and search for the acoustic version done by a young lady recently
@@ringthembells143 I have a massive Bob Dylan tattoo on my arm and yet I totally forgot about that reference. FYI Bob Dylan looked up to Leonard Cohen they are cut from similar cloth
I think you need to listen to Tom Wright's response a few more times, and also get familiar with Walter Wink's books, because his positive description of Wink "grappling with these issues" takes things very far from Heiser (Wink sees the "principalities and powers" as social realities). Wright is a kind and gentle soul, but if you listen closely you'll see that he very much separates Christian Monotheism from the henotheism manifest in the clip you showed him.
No I disagree. I believe he just holds a balanced approach understanding these supernatural forces at work in combination with human social realities. I have put an enormous amount of time into this subject and specifically gathering information from Wright, Heiser, and Mackie. I’ll come back on here and tag my last video which is a complete podcast episode with Tom going over this specific subject with the BibleProject and this balanced approach that I speak of, and also the Bible speaks of, is present for NT Wright. Thanks for watching and commenting. I really hope you stick around and join our community. We need critical thinkers like you. Blessings
I appreciate your gracious reply, and wish nothing but the best for you in creating this forum to pursue these questions. But I do have a question: in what way is Heiser's work separable from Henotheism? @@ringthembells143
I’m interested to know how the conversation with NT Wright affected your understanding. Dr. Wright added a great deal to what Dr. Heiser says and they do not conflict. They complement well.
The second temple era was very interesting, and we should get their perspective in our mind as Heiser so often said. However, in the age of technology and advanced digitization, what are we to do when it becomes mandatory to be forced into a monetary system of digits. A.I running various systems etc. I cannot imagine how the church will go forward from here...and yet, who is bringing up THIS subject? A very real threat? The WEF the WHO...the United Nations are all advancing into a very nefarious global system and I simply do NOT see the Church responding or warning or ?????? Any answers anyone>>>?
I'm sorry, I take issue with the idea that some angels or other supernatural beings could be reconciled from sin. If they could have been forgiven some sacrifice would have to have been made for them, because the Scripture says "-without shedding of blood there is no remission." Hebs 9:22. Hebrews also makes it very clear that Jesus did not come to die and rise again for angels, but for us men and women. Look at Hebrews 2: "-we see Jesus.." [who] "by the grace of God should taste death for every man." (v9) and "For verily He took not on Him the nature of angels, but He took on Him the seed of Abraham." (v16).
Great point in fact you make me realize that the notion is heretical blasphemy. So Satan then can be forgiven? NO. How close are we to Rob Bells Conclusion in Love Wins after such a notion by the way. It's also a huge red flag when after thousands of years someone comes along and says hold up yall have been reading this wrong and I can base it off one text involving the divine council. Just what? I believe in reading the Apocrypha and it's explaining aliens and such but we gotta be careful plus he says e everything super confident. It's albeit interesting it's alarming. God bless him seemed like a great guy we just gotta he careful and you crushed it here with your comment absolutely unendingly important point to which I say...amen.
Thanks for watching- Here is the Full Interview. th-cam.com/video/VZ4N1ptUa2g/w-d-xo.htmlsi=3rTreHZbPoO9hC-M
I enjoyed the video but am confused about what is supposed to be surprising about it. It was mentioned a few times how surprising this was going to be but he seemed to say just what I would expect someone knowledgeable in the Divine Council worldview to say. Is that what the video is referring to in saying it could be surprising? Is it not something he said that was surprising but the fact that Wright supports the view that's surprising?
Austin Farrer was a close friend of CS Lewis. One of my songs inspired by my thesis on Farrer says:
"When we say there's a way
To the living God
And say Jesus is the One,
We're not picking a color from the rainbow;
We're looking at the sun...."
I wonder how many doctorates he have and did he indeed study what Heiser had
@@melaOOK NT Wright is known and accepted as one of the leading NT scholars alive today, he is also a NT historian, and quite possibly the top one alive today, but he is not acquainted with Heiser's works from what I have seen.
@@andyk2218 Heiser interviewed NT Wright on the Naked Bible Podcast episode 131 which took place at SBL in 2016. I was disappointed that it seemed Wright wasn't familiar with Heiser's primary book.
I loved listening to Dr Heiser he was one of my favorite people. He is truly missed
Highly recommend the podcast "The Lord of Spirits" for similar themes!
Same ❤️✅🔔
@@reverendterminatoryeah
@@ringthembells143
Can I ask you a question about Heiser's view?
Yes. Amen. And I love hearing and sitting on the two men’s work and insights intersecting and interacting.
I discovered The Unseen Realm and Dr Michael Heiser a few months ago and honestly I can’t get enough. I have read all of his books and started listening to his Podcasts in order from the beginning. I feel as though the Veil has been lifted from my eyes and so many things make so much more sense now. I now read the Bible through a whole new light. I am saddened that Dr Heiser has passed on and we won’t get any more teachings from him, but am so grateful that he left us with so much information!
Same here. I had a faint idea that the world was very different at pre-flood times….. but when God introduced me to Dr Heiser it was like I was hit by nuclear bomb of truth and my eyes got opened a bit more to see the reality of God and his character.
@@DA-yd2ny
Shepherds chapel is on TH-cam , he has taught this truth for fifty years ....he is literally tge best bible teach since the Apostle Paul , Pastor Murray and his son .
What is your opinion on his ‘Angels’ and his ‘Demons’ books? I’m thinking of getting them, but I better re-read Unseen Realm first because I’m fuzzy on my first reading of it.
I hope by the time I've seen this, Wright will have read The Unseen Realm. I'm actually quite surprised he was so unfamiliar with it. He would benefit from Heiser's full treatment.
I enjoyed Heiser's insights regarding ancient texts from a secular view, had considerable correspondence @20 years ago. His admission that he knew biblical cosmology, yet rejected it so he could indulge in the sci-fi delusion is very telling.
@@nosretep1960I’m unclear as to what you mean in your last sentence; could you elaborate?
Would he? I find it encouraging that they’ve both reached the same conclusions independently. How important is the cross pollination of ideas when a clear understanding of the original text is what matters?
I don't remember where in one of his presentations, could be simultaneously to an illustrated model of the biblical cosmology view, he elaborated on sci-fi being THE reason he rejected it. He authored quite a bit of sci-fi. I'm pretty sure there was nothing financial about it, just worldview.
@@nosretep1960I've been following Heisers work for many years now but I've never heard him say he disbelieved the Bible because of science fiction.
Are these labels you're attaching to what he said? If anything this is precisely the OPPOSITE of Heisers' position.
He got famous because he was a frequent guest on paranormal and radio ufo shows because he was a well versed DEBUNKER of people like Zechariah Sitchen.
Great video! Although, I'm quite surprised that Mr. Wright has never heard of Dr. Heiser or the Unseen Realm. I really miss Dr. Heiser. Thankfully he left us with a treasure trove of his work!
Thank you so much! Wright has mainly been focused on Paul and the NT in his work, although he is very balanced in his approach with the Hebrew Scriptures. Heiser had more of a Hebrew Scriptures focus to his study, and so many immediately falsely labeled Heiser as fringe, so the disconnect seems reasonable. That’s why I was so pumped to make the introduction thanks for watching and for commenting💯✅🔔
Dr. Wright does so many interviews that it's impossible for him to remember them all. Dr. Heiser interviewed Wright in episode 131 of the Naked Bible Podcast
@@bradevers8718 🔔✅❤️
Thank you...and also they spoke together with something Google did
Doc Heiser changed my faith life quite literally, my friend. Sent me on a trajectory and closer relationship with God, than I ever had. He was a good teacher!
I have been going through and listening to all of Michael heiser podcast for the last year in my studies it has increased my knowledge of the Bible and the life of Christ old and New Testament x 10. In the past i have read thruogh the old Testament 5 times and the New Testament 25 times this study on his podcast brings the whole Bible from beginning to end together with great 2nd Temple and first century jewish Christian world views, good luck to all believers who follow this path forwards you won't be disappointed. God Bless you !
Love this!!!
Heiser is one of my favorite Christian scholars. I was terribly sad that he passed so young.
Michael Heiser and Chuck Missler were two legends that N.T. Wright needs to read on. Love Heiser's interpretation.
Hoping this session inspired NT and I plan to reach out to see if he would consider fully reviewing the book with me one day
Yep, Learned so much
You are absolutely 💯 right on Chuck and Michael. Both legends.God blessed us for being handed down this information
Unseen realm is a must read
It opened a veil for me
same
Praise to Our Triune God Father Son Holy Spirit who is Victorious and invited us (the Church) to participate in His Glorious Mission of Redemption. Thank you so for sharing this video episode. Blessings from a Region that darkness is being defeated by the Light of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
I’m just working through Unseen Realm and learning a great deal. It has challenged many of my pre-suppositions and enlarged my understanding. NT Wright is always interesting and helpful too. What a great channel.
I don’t know how you “review” an author and his work when you have not read/studied the books he wrote. I followed Heiser for several years and last summer I listened to his audio book “Unseen Realm” at least ten times. Heiser’s books have helped me connect so many dots in my understanding of the Bible. Everyone needs to listen to Heiser’s Supernatural Seminar series on YT. Thankfully he was very prolific on YT.
I’m grateful that he took the time even though he was dying to record all these videos so that we have them for our edification
I agree, kind of a misleading title…..
You should all check the book by Andrei Orlov on Jewish Mysticism, especially the chapter on Worthless Mysteries (of the Fallen Angels). It is fascinating. You will not be able to put the book down. His trail of thought is very similar to that of Heiser but presented in a different way. Both are eye openers.
The Unseen Realm should be compared to and studied alongside the Early Church commentaries and homilies. We cannot dismiss Scripture and the original Apostolic Tradition Jesus taught his original apostles. I am currently revisiting the Unseen Realm. I cannot deny that it greatly assists Christians to further understand how God thinks and His Cosmology. The research of M. Heiser is remarkably astounding, and profoundly deep. He presents elements very few have ever discussed or thought about.
Why are all his books like $100?
Which book are you referring to? After searching his books, it's not clear which one you're recommending. Thanks in advance!
What's the book title? I can't find it by searching. Thanks!
Agreed. Heiser's work if phenom! He mailed me his PhD Dissertation on the Council of the Gods, and it just blew me out of the water! Tremendous thinker and explorer of the ancient Hebrew language and thought.
@@mattmcqueary8972 They're not. They're all in the $15 to $25 range, according to the search I just did.
Wonderful. I dedicated our humble podcast to the work of late Dr. Heiser. He inspired all of us on the channel to think differently, in a deeper and Ancient Near East context, showing us that true biblical theology is deeply supernatural!
michael heiser was a 100% fraud. He was not a man of God, he was a Biblically illiterate man of the Godless world. Repent!
Love this conversation! This answers so many questions I have had since reading Heiser’s Unseen Realm, Demons etc. Thank you for asking the very things bouncing around in my head!!!!
I would have loved to see Heiser and Wright have a conversation. That might have broken the internet.
💯❤️🔔
Episode 131 of the Naked Bible Podcast. They did chat there.
Yes, @@bradevers8718, Dr. Heiser interviewed Wright in 2016 at a biblical studies conference in San Antonio. Very quickly, they begin discussing the atonement and both agree that one should NOT land on a singular view the atonement but, rather have a view that the atonement "is a multi-valent thing."
@@bradevers8718 They did?? Why is Wright so unfamiliar with Heiser in that case? Kind of confusing 🤔
Will look for that podcast
He really didn’t address what Dr. Heiser was laying out. I have learned so much from Dr. heiser. He does a great job showing the spiritual powers/war in heaven when Christ was on the cross.
I agree we didn’t get to cover everything. But for the small moment of time that I had to bring this out I feel like we got some good coverage. I wish I could do a whole episode with him just on Heiser and the unseen realm. But I’m grateful for this moment and looking forward to what the future holds for more just like it. Cheers🔔✅❤️
To me, it seemed he didn't want to let biblical truth invade his doctrine or theological view. For myself, Heiser lays it out clearly.
@@ringthembells143 I appreciate your ministry and am learning a lot. Over the last couple of years, I’ve read numerous NT Wright books and also Dr. Heiser's. I wish I could buy cliff notes for their books. They are very thick books (most I bought on Kindle due to their size). I’ve read slowly and have a dictionary with me 😅. But both of these men are fascinating and certainly have opened my eyes.
With Dr. Heiser, I learned about
the Divine Counsel, there were “ three falls” in the first 11 chapters of Genesis, and how all of that weaves together makes sense. Dr. N.T. Wright and his focus on the New Testament regarding no rapture ( makes sense to me), eternal life isn’t heaven, but living with a “Transphysical” (a word created by N.T. Wright) body as Jesus had after His resurrection makes good sense. Also, his coining the phrase “life after life after death” took me a while to understand and agree with him. We die and go to be with Jesus ( Paradise of heaven), which is like a intermediate spot not our final destination in a disembodied conscience state, waiting for the last bodily
resurrection on the last day where we meet Christ in the air, not to be whisked off to a bodily heaven but return to the new earth with Christ to live forever just as God created Adam and Eve to live forever with Him. We are on a journey back to Eden. This time, it will be a global Eden, and God has permanently locked and sealed in another dimension: death, Hades, evil, Satan, etc., in a fiery pit that none of these things can ever escape from and return to the new heaven and new earth which will have blended together with no separation (if I understood N.T. Wright). So, in the end, both Heiser and Wright come to the same conclusion: we are bodily living in a perfect, incorruptible body on a new earth.
Wright, I didn't answer Heiser's question, and while in Psalms 82, the members of the divine council for allowing worship of themselves, God says they will die like mortal men, Wright states according to Paul all of them will be forgiven and will all fall in line at the end. ( That makes no sense.) I think he was just promoting another book and took off in another direction. 😮 But I am just a layman and learning, so I am only giving you what I’ve understood but could be dead wrong! 😮
Yes that’s what I am thinking as well after watching this episode. Tom Wright did not address the divine council at all and that was the main point!
lHeiser is a LEGEND.
The only LEGENDS I know, walked in the "manifestation" of the Holy Spirit.....do you?
Does He answer your prayers (and those you fellowship with)?
Most of those that do or did are dead, some very recent (last 10-20 years).....the proof text and 'exegesis' that I hear often are thoughtful and well studied with "0" manifestation of the Holy Spirit!
It might as well be pronounced and "exit Jesus".
Quote as many scriptures as you can (elegantly even) but realise we are in a famine for the WORD of God!
Legend indeed! Dr. Heiser is one of the bigger influences that lead me to Christ. I'll never forget him!
@@projectdesign4675Calm your nerves man. He's just expressing the respect and adoration that many of us feel for Dr. Heiser. He lead me to Christ! So stop chastising already. God Bless you. My the peace of Jesus Christ be with you.
@@projectdesign4675 I don’t think he meant legend, in the sense of super natural legend. Just a human who did a great job explaining the supernatural. I took a giant step forward after reading his books. he was a godly man, and so intelligent, but very down to earth and very humble. I miss his teaching very much. I know he’s enjoying heaven as we speak!
@@projectdesign4675 no sure what you mean. Seems cryptic.
Two of my favourite scholars - thank you so much!
I truly appreciate the content and men on this podcast. It's simply superior and you all definitely have the right guests on this show!
God bless and Praise be to God Almighty!!
Love your show! You shouldn’t be asking questions that your guests haven’t heard of. How is it possible that Tom hasn’t heard of Heiser? Please send him Heiser’s book.
He was interviewed by Mike some time ago actually. He just hasn't read Unseen Realm
What a short brilliant interview! Thank for wrestling with this, and approaching the topic of supernatural Christianity and working through brilliant trusted theologians! So refreshing!
This interaction is gold bro, thanks so much, didnt think id ever get to hear NT interact with Heiser’s message. Two of my favorite modern thinkers.
You are most welcome!!!
NT Wright NAILED IT!!!!! Perfectly stated.
I agree with you.
I have seen some commenting that N.T.Wright must read Heiser's book first before saying these.
I bet to differ, because this is Biblical principle of understanding the scripture that he layed out much more clearly.
Though I’m interested in knowing about the unseen realm i also think no one really knows or understands what it is like or what exists there. We will know soon enough, it will be wonderous if of course we are saved. I pray every day that he finds me worthy 🙏
You are more than worthy and that was proven both on the cross and at the Resurrection.
God looks For allegiance not certainty.
You seem to have allegiance in spades trust that you are worthy and welcome in the kingdom of God!❤️🔔✅
@@ringthembells143 why thank you i appreciate the kind words i try not to judge or get mean and i always look forward to new views on matters because we are all on a voyage of learning. Have a wonderful day.
I think not understanding this forgotten and (running) theme throughout the entire scripture is something that has SERIOUSLY held the church back from accomplishing and being what we are really supposed to be...
There is nothing more likely to cause endless debates than these sorts of topics.
Judgement is always God’s no matter the arguments.
Blessings to fellow believers
Fantastic interview! Thanks to both of you.
Thank you, Prof Wright. Amazing theology, sir. Love from the UK
I am so glad I found this channel. I celebrate you. I am trying to write a story with people entering into the supernatural Biblical world view.
I do hope NT Wright reads Unseen Realm.
Bam! Another one knocked straight outta' the ball park! 👍God bless and shalom! ✌❤🙏
Sorry, but as I have told you many times, MH was not a Christian and did not understand the Bible. He was the blind leading the blind. Repent, and learn what the truth of the Bible actually is.
@@forthosewithearstohear6219you should really try and explain your position. Everything Heiser ever taught, i've back checked and it's rock solid. It is what the WORD actually says, rather than some foolish opinion or false teaching.
@@forthosewithearstohear6219 cast first stones do you? You should go wash your robes and pull that plank out of your eye. Why not share your superior knowledge of the Bible with all of the world as NT Wright and MH do and we will let the truth of such matters be self evident. Sir, your tongue has revealed the true nature of your heart.
@@jasonleveck8546 ,...My position is as I stated, MH was not a Christian and did not understand the Bible. He was a false teacher and nothing more than the blind leading the blind. The problem is, the whole church is filled with people that think they are Christians when they are not.
The fact is, there is no people more Biblically illiterate and more opposed to the truth of the Bible than are those who claim to be Christians. You are a perfect example of this. All the apostate churches fake christians absolutely refuse to acknowledge that they are deceived. Their favorite lines are, oh, you have a plank in your eye, who do you think you are to judge me.
The truth is, those like you will only listen to those who have planks in both eyes. The scriptures below all apply to you. Repent!
"Correction is grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: and he that hateth reproof shall die." Proverbs 15:10 KJV
"This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing." Jeremiah 13:10 KJV
"O LORD, are not thine eyes upon the truth? thou hast stricken them, but they have not grieved; thou hast consumed them, but they have refused to receive correction: they have made their faces harder than a rock; they have refused to return." Jeremiah 5:3 KJV
@@BibleandaBicycle ,....Your reaction only confirms the truth I have spoken for your edification. Like your Godless, blind, lost, and deceived fathers, when anyone comes to you without a plank in their eye, you reject them as your Ignorant fathers did to Jesus. You will only accept and listen to those who have planks in both eyes like MH and nt wright.
This all applies to you as well,....
@jasonleveck8546 ,...My position is as I stated, MH was not a Christian and did not understand the Bible. He was a false teacher and nothing more than the blind leading the blind. The problem is, the whole church is filled with people that think they are Christians when they are not.
The fact is, there is no people more Biblically illiterate and more opposed to the truth of the Bible than are those who claim to be Christians. You are a perfect example of this. All the apostate churches fake christians absolutely refuse to acknowledge that they are deceived. Their favorite lines are, oh, you have a plank in your eye, who do you think you are to judge me.
The truth is, those like you will only listen to those who have planks in both eyes. The scriptures below all apply to you. Repent!
"Correction is grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: and he that hateth reproof shall die." Proverbs 15:10 KJV
"This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing." Jeremiah 13:10 KJV
"O LORD, are not thine eyes upon the truth? thou hast stricken them, but they have not grieved; thou hast consumed them, but they have refused to receive correction: they have made their faces harder than a rock; they have refused to return." Jeremiah 5:3 KJV
Its quite clear in the Bible that God acknowledges other gods. Thats why he mentions getting justice on the gods of Egypt. The plauges are actually represented by egyptian gods. The frogs? There is actually an egyptian goddess with a frog head, etc.
Jeremiah 46:25, Exodus 12:12, Numbers 33:4
When your journey is complete we'll be here waiting for you ☦️
The late Michael Heiser's conclusions do not agree with N.T. Wright's about the evil gods and powers. Heiser would say that they are not reconciled under Christ in any way, rather, they are eternally doomed.
I love that they agree and also have different conclusions, each with scriptural backing ❤️🔔✅
N T Wright is wrong on this point. Please see Isaiah 24:21-22 "It shall come to pass in that day that the Lord will punish on high the host of exalted ones, and on the earth the kings of the earth. They will be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, And will be shut up in the prison; After many days they will be punished" (NKJV). Also Revelation 20 says Satan shall be bound in the bottomless pit for a thousand years. Isaiah 24:21-22 says Satan's crew "the host of exalted ones" shall be gathered in the pit also. This is what reconciliation is going to mean for the "sons of God" referred to my Heiser.
@@reubenoni let me help you unpack your position that is giving you unwarranted certainty about cosmic issues. First let’s start with humans. Our Lord Jesus in Matthew 13 specifies very clearly that we as humans will never know proper judgment in between good and evil. Meaning we can’t separate who’s going to make it into the kingdom and who is not going to make it into the kingdom. we will be wrong in our judgment to decide the eternal fate of anyone. This truth stretches past humanity and into the divine realm. Were you there when God made the universe and told the stars where to hang? Did you help God hold back the waters and create the garden of Eden?
The answer is no.
So you can have an opinion, even an estimated guess that is dressed with humility. But that’s about it… Other than EVIL, SIN, DEATH and the Satan there is no point where the Bible is ever giving you certainty of anyone’s specific final judgment. The powers that God instituted to rule the nations will be redeemed under the power of the cross and resurrection. What does that mean? We will find out. Until then we have a bias of hope, because of Jesus. We are required to remain hopeful about What God is doing for all of the universe. I hope that makes sense, stick around and join our community. We need people like you!
@@ringthembells143 Brother, please don’t accuse this commenter of being prideful and errant in his thinking. He is stating exactly what Michael Heiser attests to from scripture in his classic book, Unknown Realms. He is not personally judging the eternal destiny of the spiritual authorities and powers who rebelled against God in heaven and were cast out, he is properly quoting scripture.
@@bradhicks5558 please refer to my comment above for yourself as well ✌️🔔✅❤️
My dear brother. You are doing a wonderful job. I feel the need, to keep praying for your mission. Be smart stay strong and God bless. A mighty warrior for God's Kingdom
THANK YOU!!!
I receive this in the name of Jesus.
🙏🏻
Hey Brother; wow, the things you said in the intro had me on the edge of my seat in anticipation!
Once the video concluded, however, i felt let down and still left with unanswered questions, with no help from N.T Wright. Please let me explain.
You asked an amazing and well-known scholar to simply give an assessment of a clip from Unseen Realm and by extension, i assumed, of Dr. Heiser's view of scripture in general. You set up the stage very well and concisely but Wright crawfished on us, imo.
Wright responded - but to what i'm not sure; Rather, your beloved guest did the best job ever of completely side-stepping and re-directing and NOT giving a straightforward response to what you asked for! He did admit that he had not read Unseen Realm (a real tragedy that) but from the clip you played for him, Dr. Wright would have known what you were getting at, surely.
After the clip had played, all you asked for was simply his response to the clip. He looks up and i saw he was smiling. What's that smile about? I saw nothing laughable in the clip at all. What was it about the clip that he found amusing?
Then in his belittling reply, Tom says, "Yeah, um, you want to put 'that' (referring to the clip) - you want to put that together with passages like 1 Cor. 8, where Paul...yada yada."
At that moment I was thinking, Tom! It is precisely the "THAT" that you're being asked to weigh in on!
Tom also added, "...I want to bring Colossians into the argument as well.." Argument? What argument? You're deflecting from giving a response to the Unseen Realm clip! Who are you arguing with? What is this argument!
He only briefly gives a nod to Psalm 82, saying that the word Elohim there and in other places, Can be used to refer to these other beings or to the Sons of God, as they're sometimes called.
But he doesn't stop and elaborate. After going on a bit and trying to connect old and new testament he said, "That's a complicated set of stories." Stories?
At that point I thought maybe he does believe in actual Spiritual beings having rule over the nations even today, but the vague language he used left me wondering - and THEN he brings up his late friend Walter Wink? I thought, okay, here we go; he's more aligned with Wink than with Heiser, or is he? ISDK
Near the end, Brother Tom says, "These are great questions and I wish more people were wrestling with them." "Questions? "Them"? OP only asked one thing of you Sir. It was as if he intentionally went out of his way to NOT directly respond to or speak his mind or express his beliefs on the Divine council worldview!
I was hoping to hear him give an assessment like, 'Yes this Dr. Heiser has a firm grasp of the Spiritual realm and how the plan of God Does involve His 'angelic' family to this day and I suppose I should read his book!" - or something Like that.
Right now, i'm trying to figure out why this theologian would NOT directly respond to the topic at hand; Is the Divine Council Worldview just too controversial? Would a direct response have required him to take a position that could put him in a bad light, or what? I wonder.
My great respect for N.T. Wright has dropped down a notch and I'm still left wondering whether Wright believes in actual geographically placed Elohim and their progress throughout history OR whether he holds the same understanding as his friend Walter Wink - that wicked Elohim do not exist and the principalities and powers are nothing more than a systemic, institutionally entrenched and EARTHLY power structure! I may not have all the facts to that but Tom adds here that "Many passages in scripture don't give us precise analyses, precise definitions of what these powers are". 'Many don't'? That implies the 'Some do'!
@Ring Them Bells; let me ask you this; after Tom was done talking, did you feel he gave a satisfying response to the Unseen Realm clip and get his opinion of Dr. Heiser? Did he satisfy the questions you gave to us in the intro? I am keen to know where/how we should be directing our spiritual warfare or even if we should be. I did not hear that aspect mentioned.
Also at the end you said Thank God for you and for Michael Byrd for writing this book. I'm like, what book? After re-watching this entire video again, i heard you tell Wright, "Now this 'next' clip I want to share with you..." This has me guessing that this video is but a portion of a longer interview? Maybe if i could hear that?
Forgive me any undue harshness. I had hoped Wright would be talking Dr. Heiser's language, so yeah, i'm a bit miffed.
Blessings to you Brother
The first Time I heard NT Wright weigh in on these discussions about The Unseen Realm, I completely misunderstood him, thinking he was in opposition to the theological stance Michael Heiser presented in his writings and lectures. NT goes into such detail , working hard to bring everything in a wider context that I think some of his listeners get lost in it all. But as I continued listening and relistening I could see that he was not presenting an opposing view to Heiser, but a complimentary one. Still, I might not fully grasp what NT is communicating on any topics. Before I heard him speak I heard some others claim there was no rapture, pointing out that while that word itself did not appear in the manuscripts, the term “caught up” does. At that point I just thought we were getting into semantics. Personally I believe a spectacular supernatural event will occur and it will involve the church being caught up to meet Christ whilst on his way into the earthly realm to establish his millennial reign.
Amazing. We are faced with the fact that the powers and principalities struggle is far far larger than we could even imagine.
Love your channel bro. So glad you are helping inform those who are disconnected from this scholarship. It's a tough pill for many red blooded Americans to handle, but necessary.
That means a lot. Thanks for taking a second to comment and encourage. Stay tuned! The beginning is near❤️✌️
Dr Wright's response exposes his unfirmiality with Dr Heiser's theses comprehensively.
NT Wright is my top fav and his work “Evil and the Justice of God” highlights evil in the same sense that Heiser did.
Great interview
Wonderful Video! Thank you both for the inspiration. All for the glory of God. Come Lord Jesus, pour forth your Spirit, create in us your creation, and renew the face of the earth! Amen.
Thank you so much 🔔✅❤️
My first time hearing of J.T Wright and this channel.
I've only recently been watching a handful of Michael Heiser's videos, stream interviews, and a few of his podcast episodes. There've been a few things I heard Heiser say that I think I was in disagreement with, though I cannot now remember whst.
But the overall topic about the Elohim and the heavenly council has been stirring my interest. Especially after seeing a few of those verses Heiser points out. Though as a layman, I have to say I get mentally fatigued trying to comprehend many of his talking points pver the course of 20-30 minutes.
Amen to Mr. Wright. It does not matter what he has read. He nailed the truth. Heiser is great and God use him. But the true Church will do exactly what Wright said to do . If we need to take up the sword we will have Him in front of us behind us and on our flanks. No King but King Jesus.
I dig the Native American flute music. Word, cuz.
Amazing interview! Thanks again for your hard work. I've already pre-ordered the book and audiobook.
Awesome. Hoping to get the other author Michael Bird on as well. Expect more content from this book for sure✅🔔❤️
Great job, guys. I've had multiple undeniable encounters w/Reptilian hybrids living among us. We are in the last hours (Dan 2:43-44; Matt 24:7).
What kind of encounters?
Dr. Heiser and the unseen realm has really opened my eyes to the Scriptures. It's almost like I read the Bible 2D and after the unseen realm I read it in 3D.
The documentary The Unseen Realm is online. He used primarily canonical scripture. It's worth learning. There is a world above that influences the world below.
The unseen realm is soooo good
MY FAV!!!
I am disappoited that Tom Wright had not read Michael Heiser's full arguement before discussing it. Why reinvent the wheel? I have huge respect for both scholars and delighted this is reaching the mainstream!!
What Wright says here backs up what Heiser repeatedly said about his own work. He said 1) nothing he teaches about scripture is novel to him, and 2) he is only popularizing what is discussed in Biblical scholarship. Thus, it should not be surprising that Wright already knows this stuff even if he can't recall Dr. Heiser, who informed we laymen of these things.
Heiser didn't popularise it, though. I'd never heard of Mike, but knew that there are angels- some of them fallen and refered to as gods by Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks and Romans. Paul says that Jesus is the name above all names. Pagan Rome converted to Christianity over a number of centuries. In the latter days we live in, it has become obvious that the old gods are making a come back, but, in reality, Jesus name remains above them
Bad logic, Pilgrim. To popularize something means to make it generally accepted and liked. Your knowing beforehand about the Divine Council does not mean Heiser did not make it generally accepted and like by a large population of people.
@R9500pro1 Bad reading skills.
Plus, there is also this meaning of the word "popularize ": "make (something technical, scientific, or academic) accessible or interesting to the general public by presenting it in a readily understandable form."
So your stipulation to support your misreading also fails.
@B.A.Pilgrim Entirely irrelevant to my point or even the word "popularize", as in "make known to laymen".
I appreciate this conversation regarding the divine council in the scriptures, which many more Christians need to take seriously. At 8:57, N.T. Wright says these powers still have some strength left, referring to the book of Revelations, anticipating their end at the second coming of Christ in the end time. I've had to review my eschatological understanding when taking Jesus' words seriously, understanding the OT prophetic language He used, and His divine council worldview, which was the same as the NT's writers.
This made me realize that the end time spoken of in Scripture was referring to the end of the Old Covenant Age, which did come to pass in the 1st century, just as Jesus foretold and just as the inspired writers anticipated. This means the adversary (the satan) has met his end. That realization made me question the evil we see and experience in this world and the spiritual adversarial phenomena I have personally overcome in Jesus' name. Meditating on this matter in prayer, I received the understanding that, indeed, the satan (the adversary) of Israel was none other than 'the prince of Persia' who violated his territorial authority and ruled over Judaea as the Jews brought the traditions of Babylon when they returned from exile. Hence, the rule of the Pharisees (Parsi) and the other ruling sects developed during the 2nd temple period. Jesus fulfilled the OT law and prophecy and brought an end to the Old Covenant practice while also bringing judgment upon the rebels of God and their spiritual forces through the hands of the Romans, destroying the temple and the city in the same manner, God 'came in the clouds' bringing destruction to Egypt, Edom, etc. in the OT period. This event in AD 70 also marked a change for all the saints, dead and alive, in that the OT saints were raised from Sheol to God's presence so that Sheol was terminated forever. The New Covenant saints, Jew and Gentile, received the full ramifications of being called the sons of God on earth and in heaven to represent Christ on earth, bring healing to the nations, and overthrow the remaining adversaries of the nations in Jesus' name. In other words, we, the body of Christ, are His second coming ongoing on earth.
Love Michael Heiser.
Heiser has had N.T Wright on his podcast... one of the interviews.
Wright and every one should read Heiser's works.
I have yet to listen to the podcast but I believe it was at a conference, I wish I had known before the interview as I would have brought it up. it is a mission of this channel to help get Heiser’s work out into the mainstream scholarly world and the world of churchianity
Great interview.
Thanks!!!
00These 72 rebellious elohims from the council will be replaced by us and not redeemed..
You have spoken unbiblical nonsense like MH did. Repent!
I’m new to your show, however, I really enjoyed this and I think that you handled it very well.
Thank you for that. Hope you stick around✅❤️🔔
I dont see anywhere in the scripture that demons cease to be demons and are reconciled when people stop worshiping them...
I grew up in the Roman church but I wasn't serious about it. In fact, I left religion in early adulthood and came back later in life. I think that's why I was Open to Dr. Heiser and his Divine Council worldview. It made sense. I wasn't burdened by years of certain doctrines, even considering I was saved about 27 years ago. Honestly, I'm not a fan of Wright.
I find that many people are unwilling to even think about the supernatural, not to mention non-canonical books. It's sad really as they are missing out on so much. also Heiser's saying we need to have the 1st century Jews in our heads. Excellent!
Somehow send N.T. Wright Heiser's book The Unseen Realm and the documentary "Supernatural" !!
@@aitornavarro6597 I literally just mailed the book to Wright last week. Stay Tuned
The Beginning is Near
A great tandem to Heiser's Unseem Realm are the books by Barnshouse "The Invisible War", Thieme's "Angelic Conflict" and Bob Luginbill's "Satanic Rebellion". I easily picked up the divine council view because of them.
perhaps I am ignorant ["Neuro diverse or not], But, I have yet to run into an actual contradiction between the two gentlemen. Love to listen to either because, the way my particular mind works... IF "church" could be like this, I might not to be so bored... PS and to NT mi brother... What? are you also ASD 1? You answer the question while never giving an answer... I love it!
Heisser’s interpretation of Matt 16 and the keys to the kingdom of heaven passage is very, very compelling.
The demons have been reconciled? He triumphed over them and stripped them of authority, that doesn’t sound like reconciliation.
I don’t think Wright was saying that he is saying it’s all subjected and dethroned 9:52
@@bobs8005 I’m pretty sure he says that all those spiritual beings and authorities have been reconciled. I agree with you in regard to that’s what happened, but it doesn’t sound like what Wright is saying.
@@ClintByars I’ve listened to a lot of Wright and he gets criticism for being a bit verbose so it does take a couple times relistening to him at times. I’ll replay it as well
I agree, Clint, those fallen elohim will not be reconciled. Jude 1;6, 2Peter 2;4 and Ephesians 6;12, among other passages, refer to the fate of these spiritual principalities.
Listening to Dr. Wright, it sounds as if he is speaking to his own interpretation of these Scripture passages and theological issues without truly engaging Dr. Heiser's interpretations. I never heard him answer the question in a satisfying way. I respect Dr. Wright but I'm not even sure he realizes that he sidestepped the issue. I don't doubt supernatural powers. How can anyone read the Bible and think that is beyond my comprehension. I must admit I had hoped for more in this discussion.
Consider the readers of Hebrew, the Jews. They have a very satisfying explanation, not bordering on blasphemy.
Entirely agreed. Wright is fudgin it.
@@TheBackyardProfessor I'm not sure Wright was prepped that this was about Heiser.
Wright knows who Heiser is and his view. He just doesn’t agree with it. Appears as though he isn’t interested in anything but his personal work. Sad.
The idea from Col 1:18 that previously disloyal spiritual beings will be reconciled is interesting - the text certainly seems to point that way. It is, like many other issues in scripture, to be held in tension with other scriptures referenced in the OT of judgment for these disloyal spiritual beings. God will sort it out. Just like passages that speak of Israel being judged and discarded and yet other promises of their future near total salvation.
It’s in that tension that we find the two arrows pointing us towards wisdom and truth
@@ringthembells143 I'm sorry, but wisdom in blatant contradictions?
Isa 44 6 “This is what the Lord says, He who is the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of armies:
‘I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.
7 Who is like Me? Let him proclaim and declare it;
And, let him confront Me
[f]Beginning with My establishing of the ancient [g]nation.
Then let them declare to them the things that are coming
And the events that are going to take place.
8 Do not tremble and do not be afraid;
Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it?
And you are My witnesses.
Is there any God besides Me,
Or is there any other Rock?
I know of none.’”
Dr. Heiser interviewed Dr. Wright on a couple of occasions and presented some of his ideas to him. I wonder if he remembers that. I'm sure he's a lightning rod for many interviewers and people who want to get his opinion on various things.
Is this the Naked Bible pod cast you told me to watch? When I spoke of Dr. Michael Heiser being the best.
Someone else may have referred you to a specific naked Bible podcast. I did not. But I do love that podcast and hope you enjoy this video.✅🔔❤️
Wright states that these supernatural beings "sons of God" will be reconciled to God in the end. Did he give a text to support that statement?
Exactly !
Acts 17:11
I’ll go back and listen. But I believe it was Colossians 1:18 through 20
If that's the case, then we should all be universalists, but I am not because I think part of the reconciliation is the removal from heaven and earth those things which belong in the lake of fire.
Heiser covers this extensively in his book Angels, no 'reconciliation' did not mean to the New Testament authors restoration or salvation for spiritual enemy elohim. He probably covers it in his book Demons as well but I have not finished that book yet.
Sadly as much as I love NT Wright, he should never have done this without fully knowing what Heiser taught
It was a question inside a larger interview going over NT Wrights new book “Jesus and the Powers” here check it out-th-cam.com/video/VZ4N1ptUa2g/w-d-xo.htmlsi=UEBvFG2KP2atpf_m
I'm rather surprised that Tom has never heard of the late Dr Heiser - he interviewed Tom before!
Thank you
@@JESUS555 you are welcome!
Hmm NTW was slippery. He didn't really give a thumbs up to Heiser, but skirted around him, suspicious of giving credit to 'gods'. I agree with him - and while Heiser was an eye-opener to the existence and role of the Elohim, there's a certain level of importance given to them by Heiser's teachings that in my view runs counter to a Christian reading.
Correction* “runs counter to a Western evangelical reading”
There fixed it ✅🔔❤️
@@ringthembells143 Thanks. But I knew what I was writing. I don't identify as Evangelical.
How am i supposed to pay for these things? Literally, what do i need to say to help our team? What words, specifically? I want to be used in this battle
This means so much to me. God is faithful and taking care of this ministry and for now we ask that you please continue to pray and share the content on other platforms if possible.
Things may change and I’m hoping to get RTB established as a Non profit so we can allow people to join in support of they feel led to.
Stay Tuned
The Beginning is Near ❤️🔔✅
I like N.T. Wright, but one of his weaknesses is a reliance on strictly the Bible from the time period of Jesus. If he has read and taken seriously other writings from that time, the Apocryphal books as we call them, such as 1st Enoch and the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs for instance, he would have a more clear idea of how the Israelites of the time though about gods/sons of gods/angels/divine beings.
If anyone is interested, "Apocrypha" by Fr. Stephen De Young gives an introduction to these texts, as well as how the Early Church and later the Eastern Orthodox have viewed and used these texts.
Also, if the divine council is of interest to you, a fuller picture is presented in the Lord of Spirits podcast, host by Fr. Stephen De Young and Fr. Stephen Damack, about the spiritual aspects of the Christian Faith. De Young is an Old Testament Bible Scholar, with a focus on the Second Temple Judaism period.
Ndxtremer thank you
The Bible is the ONLY INSPIRED text ✅✅✅✅
@@ringthembells143 To say that it to say that God only ever worked in the lives of the Israelites, which the Bible directly contradicts. In the OT, the Israelites are told not to bother this group because they were doing God's work and had been given that land by God.
In the New Testament, we are told that the very Creation itself points to the Glory of God.
Everything is a direct Creation of God, and thus is God inspire, and you are worried about writing.
@@NdxtremePro however… God chose specifically to speak through a specific text and a specific people group. I hope I’m being specific enough. 🔔❤️✅ Because Jesus was very specific about what storyline and what people group he came to fill Full. This is the Jewish narrative of the TANAKH. This Jesus who was crucified and Risen as king of the world the only begotten son of God our Father came from this Jewish text specifically.
@@ringthembells143 He didn't come from the Jewish text, He came from God. Don't make the Bible your God. It is an idol in that case.
If all evil ceased when Jesus came, why is the world so evil? Why are nations and governments so evil? Why is abortion/child sacrifice so prevalent all over the world? What about false religions like Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam etc. No more idolatry? Wars and destruction and hatred are at an all- time high. How come?
1 John 5:19, "We know that we are from God, and* the whole world lies in the power of the evil one."
Jesus disarmed the ruling powers on the cross but He did not immediately replace them (though he rightfully could have). He sent His disciples out into the world to bring in the inheritance He acquired in defeating death. We are being trained in righteousness so as to replace the wicked powers and principalities even as we bring in the inheritance Jesus died to gain.
The entire history of this world, and humanity, is a story that leads to our ultimate redemption. We and the world are in a fallen state, and WE aren’t going to “work our way out of it”. Nowhere in Scripture is that kind of trajectory indicated; in fact, quite the opposite. The story ends with the physical return of Christ, the transformation of the Church, and the upcoming eternal state. It’s bold and dramatic stuff. And yes, it’s supernatural, a concept that seems to cause many of us to cringe, unfortunately. It’s not something that’s going to be “hammered into shape” by our own efforts.
Quite interesting. My first exposure to N.T. Wright, though I'd seen references. I don't consider the Masorah as authoritative, use the LXX like Jesus and the Apostles. The narrative is QUITE different, let alone translational spin. Throws a wrench in my schedule for a bit as I'm interested.
Wright has some excellent work. He gets flack for his new perspective on Paul but he’s got a solid view on the gospel and kingdom like very few scholars.
N. T. Wright was on an SBL panel, responding to PhD candidate David Burnett's paper that dealt with the very issues raised in Heiser's work regarding the divine council worldview. Im not sure why he still isnt up to speed on this subject. He's had ample opportunity to do so. For the record, I highly regard Wright. I'm just baffled he hasn't read Heiser's work, not to mention his dissertation, on this subject.
After hundreds of repetitions, I'm always struck when yet another Evangelist tells his audience, with what I don't doubt is complete sincerity, that he's here with the "real" truth of the Bible.
It's exhausting
I never thought I would see Shawn’s dad in a theology video.
Truth to power....
Amen!!!
He just showed me that Heiser wasn’t overstating things when he said this stuff is common knowledge to scholars.
if NT Wright hasn't read The Unseen Realm, then how can he have a logical argument against it?
He didn’t argue against it 👀
OK, I like this guy, Wright. What I'm gathering is because we know Israel is really God's ppl. So anyway, God's ppl Isaac's ppl are God's chosen at first. The ones who were given to the other sons of God. After Jesus took back authority from these gods. They are able to overcome what their ancestors brought them into. By accepting God as their God. These gods are still here today. They've just used many different ways to lead you to idolatry. Therefore, you are under these gods. Have the choice to come back to the true God. Sorry, but churches are part of the leading astray. Whether by actively knowing it or not. Because the church of God is His ppl. I'm not saying all churches are bad. The teachings got tampered with hundreds of years ago. Which led us to not be able to read the Bible in the full perspective. I've been researching this stuff for a while now. I know I may not be fully explaining in detail. It's more the short version
Yes his church are the believers in Christ. When 2 or more gather i will be there. Find a good bible based church or gather a group of like minded people to study the Bible. Never trust any one man only let the Holy Ghost guide you. Stay strong in his word.
@BentIronBins thank you. I know all this already. I'm not brand new to this. I just continue to see and understand things on a deeper level each day. That's because of the Holy Spirit and good ppl like Heiser, Wright, and ppl with these channels. Also, with help from ppl like you. So again, thank you. God bless
❤
The Message Deuteronomy 32:8-9 When the High God gave the nations their stake, gave them their place on Earth, He put each of the peoples within boundaries under the care of divine guardians. But God himself took charge of his people, took Jacob on as his personal concern.
Does anyone have an opinion on tackling NT Wright’s massive 4 volume Christian Origins series (actually 5 volumes if you consider that last volume is so large that it’s two books/parts)? Do you think it’s worth reading it all, or did you think perhaps it’s too wordy and drawn out? Thanks for anyone who can give any comments at all who has read the entire set, I’m considering reading it all, but it’s quite a time commitment.
Monotheism in the Old Testament? Whose is the Commander of the Lord's army who told Joshua to take his shoes off because he was standing on Holy ground?
Jesus
Monotheism means something different to the Jews and I though Tim expressed that well
@@albusai exactly- you win the prize eternal life
Near the end, Tom says, "These are great questions - I wish that more people were wrestling with them."
Are people NOT wrestling with them bc they're afraid to or bc the subject matter is too spooky or what? I need to hear scholarly debates!
What's the story between the host's eye tattoo? First time viewer
Is Dr. Wright ever going to do new episodes of 'Ask NT Wright Anything'?
I don’t think so 🤷🏻♂️
@@ringthembells143 they keep replaying old episodes. Why bother, if there won't be new episodes, and the whole catalog is available?
Have you ever heard the song "Anthem" by Leonard Cohen? He has a line that goes Ring the bells that still can ring and I thought of it as soon as I saw your title
@@dogbackwardspodcast No but I’m going to check it out now. Thanks! The Lord gave me this name from a Bob Dylan song with the same title. You should check it out and search for the acoustic version done by a young lady recently
@@ringthembells143 I have a massive Bob Dylan tattoo on my arm and yet I totally forgot about that reference. FYI Bob Dylan looked up to Leonard Cohen they are cut from similar cloth
@@dogbackwardspodcast that is so awesome. Glad to have you here in the community! Stay tuned… The beginning is near✌️❤️
I think you need to listen to Tom Wright's response a few more times, and also get familiar with Walter Wink's books, because his positive description of Wink "grappling with these issues" takes things very far from Heiser (Wink sees the "principalities and powers" as social realities). Wright is a kind and gentle soul, but if you listen closely you'll see that he very much separates Christian Monotheism from the henotheism manifest in the clip you showed him.
No I disagree. I believe he just holds a balanced approach understanding these supernatural forces at work in combination with human social realities. I have put an enormous amount of time into this subject and specifically gathering information from Wright, Heiser, and Mackie. I’ll come back on here and tag my last video which is a complete podcast episode with Tom going over this specific subject with the BibleProject and this balanced approach that I speak of, and also the Bible speaks of, is present for NT Wright.
Thanks for watching and commenting. I really hope you stick around and join our community. We need critical thinkers like you. Blessings
I appreciate your gracious reply, and wish nothing but the best for you in creating this forum to pursue these questions. But I do have a question: in what way is Heiser's work separable from Henotheism? @@ringthembells143
I’m interested to know how the conversation with NT Wright affected your understanding. Dr. Wright added a great deal to what Dr. Heiser says and they do not conflict. They complement well.
Seek jesus with all of your heart and you will find Him in a wonderful way. Even in a mystical encounter , maybe....
The second temple era was very interesting, and we should get their perspective in our mind as Heiser so often said. However, in the age of technology and advanced digitization, what are we to do when it becomes mandatory to be forced into a monetary system of digits. A.I running various systems etc.
I cannot imagine how the church will go forward from here...and yet, who is bringing up THIS subject?
A very real threat? The WEF the WHO...the United Nations are all advancing into a very nefarious global system and I simply do NOT see the Church responding or warning or ??????
Any answers anyone>>>?
I'm sorry, I take issue with the idea that some angels or other supernatural beings could be reconciled from sin. If they could have been forgiven some sacrifice would have to have been made for them, because the Scripture says "-without shedding of blood there is no remission." Hebs 9:22. Hebrews also makes it very clear that Jesus did not come to die and rise again for angels, but for us men and women. Look at Hebrews 2: "-we see Jesus.." [who] "by the grace of God should taste death for every man." (v9) and "For verily He took not on Him the nature of angels, but He took on Him the seed of Abraham." (v16).
The son of man Yeshua had the power to forgive sin before He died... Just saying.
Great point in fact you make me realize that the notion is heretical blasphemy. So Satan then can be forgiven? NO. How close are we to Rob Bells Conclusion in Love Wins after such a notion by the way. It's also a huge red flag when after thousands of years someone comes along and says hold up yall have been reading this wrong and I can base it off one text involving the divine council. Just what? I believe in reading the Apocrypha and it's explaining aliens and such but we gotta be careful plus he says e everything super confident. It's albeit interesting it's alarming. God bless him seemed like a great guy we just gotta he careful and you crushed it here with your comment absolutely unendingly important point to which I say...amen.
Wright said he hasn't read the book Unseen Realm. How can he review it?
He can't.
Then why does the title say "N.T. Wright Reviews" it?
@@MRETV-rm1bh NT Wright has a lot of integrity so I think he wasn't prepped properly about the specific topic.
I read Heiser, struck me as way out of the mainstream of 2,000 years of scholarship.