Another TH-camr, @boatworkstoday, demonstrated the same issue when laminating fiberglass. His key point was to 1) Wipe down, 2) Grind for tooth, 3) Clean, and 4) MOST important, coat the surface with resin BEFORE applying fiberglass! Do NOT place dry fiberglass on the surface followed by wetting with resin. During his demonstration, the test pieces that did not have the initial wetting with resin BEFORE applying the glass had results similar to yours.
Before laminating on poliester hull you need to grind, vacum the dust, clean with acetone , which all you did and than use liquid STYREN (Whipe it over the top layer of hull with cloth) to chemicaly activate the top layer of the poiliester in you hull laminate - result is a sticky hull like due to activation of the top layr of old hull resin. This is a must for chemical bond which you do not have. Than you laminate within up to 8 hours after styren activation of top layer. This works on polyester and vinilester resins. Being a boat builder and yacht designer and having similar issues in the past I am talking from experience
Yes....and I would only add that you should degrease the mold wax on the existing hull first before any sanding or grinding. I use xylene to dewax, followed by acetone to wipe away any film left by xylene. Acetone by itself is a poor degreaser because it flashes to fast.
Really pleased someone mentioned this. As a boat builder. this is standard practice when attempting to add layers / strips to an already cured surface. As mentioned, primary reason is to re-activate and ensure chemical bond between old and new.
I once heard from a boat builder: either you sand or you use peelply. BUT: both things should be not older than 24 hours. Why did you not use Epoxy? I only trust WestSystem.
@@bens_light use of peel ply is of triple purpose: 1 to absorb extra resin , 2 to create rough surface for secondary bondig(texture of ripped peel ply creates larger area for bonding ) and 3 to protect top layer of fibers from being dirty or damaged. Peel ply is taken of just prior od second bonding of layers or before applying sanding compound. There is a huge difference in using epoxy and ester type resins (polyester, vinilester). It is completely different chemistry. Idea is to always have chemical bond. So polyester on polyester and epoxy on epoxy.Yes people use epoxy on everything but it is not miracle resin. Difference between those resins is in elongation under stress; poliester 1.5-3% relatively cheep, vinil ester 3-4 % moderate cost and epoxy 5-6 % 2 to 3 or more times the price of poliester. On ester type boats, especily older ones, where resin has been cured completly over the time, it is important to use Styren to activate the resin for chemical bond. Epoxy has nothing to do with it, for epoxy bonding just rough the surface(sanding), clean it (xylen -much better than acetone), heat it if possible(heat gun on local area) and than you can start do laminataion or what is intended in epoxy based system. There is also huge differnce in epoxy types but this is no the topic. West system is great epoxy sistem but expensive compared to others. Personaly I use West system epoxy only on ther areas which are exposed to the sun (deck and riging) duo to very good UV protection of West system resin (probably the best on the market). For lamination of the construction and hull areas I use different epoxy resin depening on the pupose. For proper repairs I always use the same chemistry as the base sistem, epoxy works on small repairs which are more of cosmetic nature tha structural. It is easier to use than doing styren activation, also where I live liquid styreen is not the of the shelf type of product.
The energy and effect of hitting a dock is much much higher than slamming that small hammer via a block of wood, because the weight and inertia of a big boot is behind it.
FYI guys, Whenever you use a solvent to clean with (especially Acetone!!!) after you wipe a part down, take a clean, dry cloth and wipe it down again. All solvents leave a residue on the parts, and will contaminate any bonded joints. Just sayin…. Love the video’s
I've laminated over a peel ply surface multiple times, but about a year ago, I heard Shayne Young say you should absolutely not do that. Since he's way smarter than me, I believed him, but now you've shown the proof why peel ply is simply a nice surface to begin your prep from.
I am in tears. That last slow camera pan upwards, showing us Uma, with rising hope... Reality TV shows eat your heart out: THIS is a true reality show!!! Real life sneaks up and hits you with tragedy in ways you can never predict, and how we recover and deal with this is the true story. The human heart and how we learn to adapt with compassion for ourselves and everyone around us. The careful, detailed approach to figuring out the safe path forward. Thank you for having such incredible courage in sharing your journey with all if us Dan and Kika!
I realize that these videos were filmed weeks ago, but you got all the advice you needed last week. I've done hundreds of fiberglass jobs, ranging from small pieces to major repairs, and you didn't prep your test piece properly. Anything being glassed (Or painted) needs to be scuffed up. When glassing, it really needs 60 grit, and no need to acetone before - that is unnecessary! (I mean you can do it, but more important to do afterwards than before.) 60 grit will take off ANYTHING that is still stuck on there. I am not a fan of spinning disk grinders. I think there is a greater chance of gouging the surface, and tricky to get into corners. This is more important when painting than glassing. I prefer an orbital sander, and you can get round or square tools which can help with joints and seams. After sanding, wipe with a wet cloth first, then acetone, to ensure a REALLY clean surface. If doing a large surface, use compressed air to get the surface dust off before wiping with water. If you can get a hose on it, do that too, then wipe with a clean cloth. When you wipe with the acetone, only the smallest amount of very fine dust should be left. If the contractors sanded or ground the surface, and cleaned properly, that new glass will be as strong as the original hull.
I’m an industrial designer and used that foam to make models at design school years ago. It has a smooth skin on the finished processed side and I would always sand past that to the porous foam before laminating blocks together as the factory surfaces always delaminated.
Live and learn.. its definitely all in the prep work! As an older gentleman thats been boating 50yrs doin most projects on my own and now having my son owning his own boat business, as i tell him all the time hard work pays off. "You have to bleed to get somewhere". Awesome to see the test prep. Lets not forget when UMA will be retro fitted with all new interior walls bulk heads it will be extremely strong. I dont comment as i just normally sit back and enjoy the boating life of your videos but this one got me. Keep positive vibes and UMA will be just fine to sail again! (I was skeptical on first start of this project knowing theres a crap ton of work being a boat person) Awesome to see your dedication getting UMA new life. This chapter anyway. Cant wait to see that bottle break on her way to the next adventure.😊
A good engineering principle is :"Run samples". In your case a little sample of wetted out glass bonded to the inside of the hull, and formed to stick out at right angles( and then broken off) would have given you a true data point as to whether the vinyl ester resin would bond to your existing hull.
Obviously I don't know everything that's going on with your build and it sounds like you've got a lot of smart people helping already, but I'm a boat builder manufacturing fibreglass boats with vinylester resin doing very similar things to what you're currently doing. We find that the resin we use when infusing parts tends to be harder to bond to and requires additional coupling agents or adhesion promoters beyond just cleaning and grinding. On the point of grinding, ALWAYS rough the surface, if you're laminating on top of a peelply finish then a quick scuff with 40 grit sandpaper is generally ok but if it's a smooth resin finish or an infused finish you want to ensure its well ground. I primarily do systems fit off work and only a few weeks every year I help laminate the structure but to the best of my knowledge. 1 clean the surface as you've been doing, 2 grind or sand to create the mechanical bond, 3 prime with a bonding agent, this might be a thin coat of a good structure adhesive or perhaps additives like silanes in the resin, I can't advise on this as it's not my area of expertise. 4 laminate, I won't explain you already know. 5 peelply so that it's easier to grind, easier been the key word there. This might be late or information you already have but it's another data point so I hope it helps 🙂
The 'thickness' of the resin will determine its ability to fill the micro cracks made by the preparation. Filleting the edges of the foam ribs will distribute the forces over a much larger area. Everything gets back to the distribution of forces. Architects bring the future perfect. Engineers bring durability. Think Buckminster Fuller. I have no wish to be critical. Education expands.I absolutely adore your work. Love ya guts.
Whew!! Well done. Serendipity that you did the sample as an illustration. Caused a bump in confidence but now you can be even more confident. Appreciate the other comments already provided as well. Uma Nation has yer back.
every boat builder that I've worked with is that you ALWAYS need to sand after you've taken off your peel ply. Its a secondary bond and you want to sand it well...good luck with it! Phil
Good news! I would get an ultrasound of the areas you hit with a hammer on the hull just as insurance. Also dragging a chain over the hull interior and listing for hollow sounds is a good idea. Cheers!
very happy for you guys! While watching the episode I keep hearing in my brain 'measure twice cut once' which is exactly what you were doing here. well done
Polyester and Vinylester don't make the strongest mechanical or flexible bonds....as Epoxy would. So applying a primer coat of styrene thinner over existing hull surfaces that are fully dewaxed and toothed with 40grit is beneficial to enhance a degree of both chemical & mechanical bonding.
This video is what I like watching the most because it has a story arc. We have a setting (place, characters, situation), a quest (can our heroes get the new fiberglass to bond with the old?), trials and tribulations, and a resolution to the story (success, thankfully).
I recommend you try epoxying the test pieces back together, then try separating them with impact again. It will show you one of the most important Must do's in boat restoration- secondary bonds need to be done with EPOXY, never ester based resins.
Great job. thanks for pointing out your mistake so we don't have to make the same one. i just got done repairing a 10 x11 inch hole in my Hall. boy did it fell good to know that I can do that kind of stuff if I need too. I bought a 21' sailboat to learn on last year. poked a hole in it when I turned to sharp and the back end of my truck pushed a hole in it. but that why I bought a 21 foot to make mistakes with, less stressful making mistakes with a 3000 then a 50000 to 100000 boat. you guys have been a real inspiration.
That was absolutely brilliant - I'm so impressed. Such a clear demonstration of how proper preparation helps to ensure a good bond and, therefore an effective structure. Thank you for this most informative video. clean and grind, clean and grind.........
Hey guys, I've worked with fiberglass for over 30 years, I don't know how long it had been when you started hitting it with a hammer, but I've found the longer it's been since you glass, more it cures and stronger it will be, and as long as you keep it clean, your glass inside the boat is a great job, and will last for another 50 years, and I've also noticed that bigger the total glass area, the over strength is much better, so be at easy guys, you done a great job so far, good luck and God bless you guys
So relieved that you found out what the problem was. I had a funny feeling that it was something that you did differently with the surface preparation. I couldn't imagine that the yard would do all that work only to hand you a huge bill and a little note attached to it that said that everything would pop off as soon as you hit a wave.
I'm very happy that things went the way they did! You're now back to being only the Uma Nation. However the Lami Nation will always be part of the Uma Nation! : - ) The D-Lami Nation has been permanently split off from all other relevant Nations!
Wow! That shows how much detailed knowledge is required to do fiberglass-work! It is anything but just throw some glass and some epoxy on. Wet in wet, wet-dry, temperature - humidity impact... It is very inspiring and educational to see you guys deep dive into it 🙂. Love it!
Holy cow, my heart just sank into my stomach. My brain just went numb thinking about what you found. Thanks for sharing this very important info. You guy's rock! 💖 ⛵
sharing the good stuff is easy but being humble and sharing the bad to is a great blessing... so many see instant gratification and only ever winning online and it warps peoples perspective of life. the want everything to always work and be good and go to plan and that is rarely the case. thanks foir sharing some hardships.. heh.. hard... ship...
I won't repeat what everyone else has already said, I'm rooting for your success and return to the seas and I believe you know where things went wrong at this point. Keep pushing, you'll be finished before you know it.
I had the same sinking feeling last week. We’ve all been there. I had a feeling that the fact you didn’t grind the glass before gluing the stringer was a possible cause for the failure. I haven’t done much glasswork but having a clean roughed up surface gives the resin something to bond with. Glad you could turn that frown upside down. Keep up the good work. 👍
i learned so much from video and comments that i an pretty confident that i can do some renovation at my 46 years old boat by myself Thanks Dan and Kika! you videos always cinematic, dramatic, entertaining and educational at the same time. you are number one sailing channel!
You made a comment at 16:45 about the timing of laminating. That does make a difference. You have to determine the per the particular resin you're using, what the optimal lamination timing should be, as well as sanding if necessary. Built large composite structures as an engineer, including airframes. Impressed at the methodical approach you've taken to evaluate a potential issue.
I can not tell you how my heart sunk in Last week step, and to have you guy test it so that you fell ok with the way repairs are going (beating the hull with a hammer, which made me cringe and laugh the same time) and the final testwhere the glass work as it shoud have, lets me breath a sigh of relief for you! I am happy for you guys.
I’ve literally watched every single episode at least 4x already. I literally fall asleep to your guys channel. (In a good way). Some play crickets sounds I play Sailing Uma.
Wow. Thanks for sharing this. As a boatdeveloper myself. This is very important to know about. It is very good to watch you as always. Stay blessed😃. Best regards from the west of Norway
I had not realised that your test sample hadn’t been ground prior to bonding on the “ribs” as had been done with your hull interior. Knowing that now, personally I’m a lot more comfortable that there’s no issue with your resin performance. In similar work that I’ve done I’ve always used epoxy for it’s relatively forgiving nature and it’s mechanical bond strength, having had a couple of bad experiences some decades ago with polyester lamination onto old polyester substrate. I’ve had no experience with vinylester so it’s interesting to learn about it’s properties in use. Good vid and I’m greatly relieved for you in its outcome, but I’ll bet that my feelings of relief on the matter don’t hold a candle to yours! Well done for your approach to investigating the issue, it’s not always easy to maintain a completely objective viewpoint when you already have so much invested in a situation. Onwards and upwards, cheers! 😎👍🍻
Glad to see the real hull works as designed and the sample was retested. The beating on the hull went well too. Glad to see the relief on your faces. Don't want to burst your bubble... but after hull nearly completed, put on the mast and tighten up the stays. Different loads/stress tests may show something different. With mast on and tightened, then simulate the dock banging. The stress will be different. You'll have upward stress and lateral stress. I believe you're on the right track, but keep testing! Love the highs n lows of your vids and both of your adventures. Well done!
Doubt is the father of science....You tested, tick. You were not impressed. Tick. You checked and tested again until results were satisfactory. Tick, passed 100%... Without this mindset, there would be an awful lot more catastrophes in a world already, ah, "challenged". Good job guys, this is the "sharp end". Thanks for being brave enough to share x🤗🤗
My heart sank after the last episode. Any doubts contact Parley Revival he did a huge amount if glassing on his hurricane damaged cat. So happy things and the glassing method have been investigated and Uma’s ribcage is looking mighty fine. Greg 🇬🇧
I am impressed with your brave testing and experimentation. I am confident if you follow the direction of the Boat Builder, you will rebuild UMA the way she deserves to be!
Great test. I also thought you could laminate directly over glass handled with peel ply. I nuild skis and snowboards and luckily always in 1 layup, so it hasnt comprimised anything i have built. Thanks for sharing. And smooth sailing with your rebuild.
Thank you so much, I have learned at lot for this video, the bonding is key: so fist degrease, then sand and remove dust and degrease again. Then you can start to rebound new glass to the excisting structure. Keep on the good work.
So glad you pulled advice from the vast Uma nation, and you folks have been diligent in your own testing. You model thoughtful and careful stewardship! Could the issue have been lack of using acetone to do a final wipe down before applying the new layers? Between sanding/ scratching the surface and having unseeable contaminants, there are probably a host of issues, but those two stand out as the big ones in my experience. Good luck with the evolution of your ‘remodel!’ We all are looking forward to seeing the interesting developments!
I'm not a fiberglas expert but I did hire one of the best in New England to rebuild a transom on a boat back in the early 90s - to make it much better than the original factory glass chop garbage and able to withstand the forces of a 1000+ horsepower stern drive setup. I watched as he worked. Essentially, you can add multiple layers of different fiberglas substrate - building up the thickness as you go - but it must be wet (short time window). If it cures or flashes, than the surface must be "reprepped" to begin layering again and roughening or grinding the surface is a critical step in that process.
I'd wondered about the surface on you first test panel. Keying the surface before a lamination is so important- even if using peel-ply! Glad that you guys are feeling better about your upgrades! Take good care!
Very interesting video. I worked in a boat factory long ago and still do some of this stuff occasionally. You have given me pause to ponder. Gonna be doing some investigation before any more projects. Thank you very much!
Great Follow up! When Dan was hitting Uma, I caught myself saying "It's okay Girl, they are just looking out for your best interest." What a relief! sweeping forward!!!!
If you are using waxed finishing resin or adding wax you have to prep well. Always wipe down with acetone before any coat. Just dust in the air from pollen or anything can wreck a lamination.
Dan & Kika, you guys are an inspiration! So much so I've been taking (slow) steps to building my own sailing dinghy. I felt terrible for you with the delamination set back.... so much so that it pushed me to join the Uma Nation just to throw a bit more support. 🤗 I'm hoping one day your sailing journey leads you to the Pacific Northwest - it would be amazing to meet you two one day! Wishing you all the best in your next chapter of Uma adventures!
I’m not not interested in these plastic building topics, but somehow I needed to see how this turns out. Great storytelling! (And now, if the talks come to delamination issues, I’ll know more about it than before…)
I wish you all luck with this renovation. One thing I hope you'll consider though is that the test you've done hammering the hull from the outside is not even near the forces of impact and torsions the oceans, docks and other real life scenarios will put your boat through. Basically, don't use that as any assurance. You are loved and we want you to stay safe.
Was thinking exactly the same. You shouldn’t be reassured by that. It is when the hull flexes it will gradually delaminate. I doubt any of this will cause a sudden structural failure but will gradually be noticed by squeaks etc. Once it starts to delaminate moisture and other chemicals will find their way between the layers and speed up the process.
@@abbbee8918 That's some of what I thought. Thanks for listing. I am still concerned for them in relation to torsion forces while sailing in open oceans. They have experience so I trust they'll be OK. I am just not sure if the repairs will last as long as they'd need them though.
Great step. More like a huge stride than a step. Now you have confidence in your hull within a hull I am really looking forward to seeing the build. I am interested to see what two architects came up with design wise. Uma 2.0 here we come.⛵
Poor Uma going through all the trauma being hit.I think she will forgive you now that you have trust in her again.Cant wait for the interior restored.Stay safe and take care.
Vinylester resin is great. I built two Glasair planes with it. But secondary bonding is not vinylester's thing. You should have added the ribs and stringers as you went. But there' s also an issue that the same resin is lining the hull, which presumably was originally polyester or epoxy. Will the new hull eventually delaminate from the old hull? Your best answer is to use epoxy for the ribs and stringers because it does secondary bonds much better than vinylester. And is the vinylester you used a bonding resin or a finishing resin? Does it have a wax coating from a finishing resin? In that case better to use bonding resin and spray it right away with PVA. That is all.
Thinking further, the work you hired-out may be useless unless you add through fasteners to keep the delaminated inner hull lining attached to the old hull when the it flexes underway. Use stainless fasteners and replace the ribs and stringers with sheet stainless ones. Sorry. Who designed this repair?
Some manufacturers use a wax additive in resin that has to be sanded in between layers and doesn't bond well even when still tacky. You have to actually wait till each layer cures and then sand before putting a new layer on for best results.
Honest question for Dan and Kika. Wouldn’t it be more reassuring to use epoxy resin instead and ensure s good bond for something this important? I feel like vinyl ester resin is too fiddly for bonds as important as this.
For an average DIYer, yeah, maybe epoxy. But there is a reason all the Pros and ship yards use vinylester to build boats and repair boats. For the work we're doing, it's perfect.
OMG. That was horrifying... like lightbulb is out in a basement-horror movie moment and you're yelling at the screen for them to not go down there. I am soooo relieved for you guys.
Dan and Kika hi from Calgary. Phew thank goodness for letting calmer heads prevail. Consulting with those whose experience and advise you respect. Ultimately confirming and restoring your faith in the hull strengthening design and work completed thus far. Very relieved and happy for you and Uma because it needs to return to sailing the Earths blue waters. Refit full steam ahead thank goodness Important to point out though after enjoying your channel from day one I feel like I know you. I'm confident if the worst had happened with your personalities you would have rebounded and we'd be introduced to Uma 2. Pleased that Uma 1, Kika and Dan triumphed, see you next week. (Dan its Spring time in the Canadian Rockies remember, you can explain that to Kika lots of white stuff).
For those commenting on the hot glue/foam connection note that that the foam doesn't need to be there at all, the strength comes from the laminate. The foam isn't there to provide strength to the structure. It is only there to provide the profile/shape to get the laminate to conform to. The foam could be completely removed/not used at all if it was possible to create a square section around thin air ... but as you can't laminate against nothing foam is used to give the shape. If you want/need strength from the shape material then you would use plywood or full thickness fibreglass. For beams though that would a lot heavier, more costly and probably too stiff (there should be some flex allowed in the structure). Think of the foam like a former for the inside of a sink bowl. Once the laminate is cured you would remove the foam to fill the sink with water, it is only there to give a shape to apply the glass to. That said the only improvement I can think of with putting the rib structure's in would be to laminate the foam first (to provide a square tube shape) and before immediately attaching that to the hull and laminating over that. This way the inside edge of the 'tunnel' would have a 'T' shape laminate connection rather than an 'L'' shape bond to the hull. I can only assume, as I don't see boat builders doing this, that this isn't needed as it would be much more time consuming and expensive.
Interesting suggestion (T vs L). Certainly edge effects (which result in peel failure rather than direct tensile failure) are a real Achilles' heel for any adhesive resin, but especially for resins which are not toughened. The layout of the test sample made for particularly severe edge effects. Peeling means that instead of acting across an area, failure occurs along a line (which in theory means infinitely high stress, because a line has no area). In peeling failure, that line moves across the area. It's (I suppose) an instance of "divide and conquer"
That is completely wrong. The foam should add significant strenght. The whole idea with structural use of foam is that you reduce the amount of heavy glass and resin and let the foam be the strenght. Modern boats or mostly foam with very thin layers of glass and resin. Carbon or other.
@@ottifantiwaalkes9289 This is not that sort of structure, and the modern boats you refer to are built with entirely different aims (maximum stiffness, minimum weight) to what these two have in mind. Such boats have no tolerance for running into heavy floating objects, like ice bergy bits, or deadheads (floating trees), let alone solid ice shelves or uncharted rocks.
After watching you guys I’m never using anything but epoxy! I’m not a professional, just a guy with an old boat that has been strengthening the bulkheads and adding tabbing.
Thanks this a great result ive commented on every video ive ever seen that states peel ply leaves a great bonding surface and it does not we Tested this in the early 2000's. Now the internet knows if its structural grind it sand it clean it.
I was confident that the interior prep would guarantee a good bond. New lay-up you have to be really careful between layers. Once you are cured "hard" I would always rough up the surface and clean it with acetone before trying to bond to it.
You absolutely have to sand a peel ply surface to bond to. The peel ply gives you a nice resin rich surface to sand back without cutting into the fibres of the last layer.
Another TH-camr, @boatworkstoday, demonstrated the same issue when laminating fiberglass. His key point was to 1) Wipe down, 2) Grind for tooth, 3) Clean, and 4) MOST important, coat the surface with resin BEFORE applying fiberglass! Do NOT place dry fiberglass on the surface followed by wetting with resin. During his demonstration, the test pieces that did not have the initial wetting with resin BEFORE applying the glass had results similar to yours.
Excellent, and yes, proper.
I used to make carbon fiber parts from scratch and you are 100% correct. Wet first then apply the fabric!
Andy from BWT has years of experience with glass. I would LOVE to see a collaboration with him.
Epoxy would never have delaminated like that. I have done one project with foam and ester resin, vastly inferior to epoxy. Esters are not a glue.
Before laminating on poliester hull you need to grind, vacum the dust, clean with acetone , which all you did and than use liquid STYREN (Whipe it over the top layer of hull with cloth) to chemicaly activate the top layer of the poiliester in you hull laminate - result is a sticky hull like due to activation of the top layr of old hull resin. This is a must for chemical bond which you do not have. Than you laminate within up to 8 hours after styren activation of top layer. This works on polyester and vinilester resins. Being a boat builder and yacht designer and having similar issues in the past I am talking from experience
Yes....and I would only add that you should degrease the mold wax on the existing hull first before any sanding or grinding. I use xylene to dewax, followed by acetone to wipe away any film left by xylene. Acetone by itself is a poor degreaser because it flashes to fast.
Really pleased someone mentioned this. As a boat builder. this is standard practice when attempting to add layers / strips to an already cured surface. As mentioned, primary reason is to re-activate and ensure chemical bond between old and new.
I once heard from a boat builder: either you sand or you use peelply. BUT: both things should be not older than 24 hours. Why did you not use Epoxy? I only trust WestSystem.
@@bens_light use of peel ply is of triple purpose: 1 to absorb extra resin , 2 to create rough surface for secondary bondig(texture of ripped peel ply creates larger area for bonding ) and 3 to protect top layer of fibers from being dirty or damaged. Peel ply is taken of just prior od second bonding of layers or before applying sanding compound. There is a huge difference in using epoxy and ester type resins (polyester, vinilester). It is completely different chemistry. Idea is to always have chemical bond. So polyester on polyester and epoxy on epoxy.Yes people use epoxy on everything but it is not miracle resin. Difference between those resins is in elongation under stress; poliester 1.5-3% relatively cheep, vinil ester 3-4 % moderate cost and epoxy 5-6 % 2 to 3 or more times the price of poliester. On ester type boats, especily older ones, where resin has been cured completly over the time, it is important to use Styren to activate the resin for chemical bond. Epoxy has nothing to do with it, for epoxy bonding just rough the surface(sanding), clean it (xylen -much better than acetone), heat it if possible(heat gun on local area) and than you can start do laminataion or what is intended in epoxy based system. There is also huge differnce in epoxy types but this is no the topic. West system is great epoxy sistem but expensive compared to others. Personaly I use West system epoxy only on ther areas which are exposed to the sun (deck and riging) duo to very good UV protection of West system resin (probably the best on the market). For lamination of the construction and hull areas I use different epoxy resin depening on the pupose. For proper repairs I always use the same chemistry as the base sistem, epoxy works on small repairs which are more of cosmetic nature tha structural. It is easier to use than doing styren activation, also where I live liquid styreen is not the of the shelf type of product.
Interesting, thanks! However also WestSystem Epoxy has no UV protection at all. Why do you think it has?
Phew! If you listen carefully, you can hear the Uma Nation breathing out. So relieved for you.
The transition of Kika's face and body language from before to after wood hammering shows such relief is amazing!
The energy and effect of hitting a dock is much much higher than slamming that small hammer via a block of wood, because the weight and inertia of a big boot is behind it.
At first, I thought she'd come out holding a scrap of fiberglass to prank Dan but that would have been excessively mean.
@@casybondFenders are a great trick 🙃
In the Navy we used to say "If it doesn't work and you can't fix it, paint it... at least it will look good! 🌴😎
I thought it was...If it moves, paint it. If it doesn't move piss on it.
FYI guys, Whenever you use a solvent to clean with (especially Acetone!!!) after you wipe a part down, take a clean, dry cloth and wipe it down again. All solvents leave a residue on the parts, and will contaminate any bonded joints. Just sayin…. Love the video’s
I've laminated over a peel ply surface multiple times, but about a year ago, I heard Shayne Young say you should absolutely not do that. Since he's way smarter than me, I believed him, but now you've shown the proof why peel ply is simply a nice surface to begin your prep from.
I am in tears. That last slow camera pan upwards, showing us Uma, with rising hope... Reality TV shows eat your heart out: THIS is a true reality show!!! Real life sneaks up and hits you with tragedy in ways you can never predict, and how we recover and deal with this is the true story. The human heart and how we learn to adapt with compassion for ourselves and everyone around us. The careful, detailed approach to figuring out the safe path forward. Thank you for having such incredible courage in sharing your journey with all if us Dan and Kika!
I realize that these videos were filmed weeks ago, but you got all the advice you needed last week. I've done hundreds of fiberglass jobs, ranging from small pieces to major repairs, and you didn't prep your test piece properly. Anything being glassed (Or painted) needs to be scuffed up. When glassing, it really needs 60 grit, and no need to acetone before - that is unnecessary! (I mean you can do it, but more important to do afterwards than before.) 60 grit will take off ANYTHING that is still stuck on there. I am not a fan of spinning disk grinders. I think there is a greater chance of gouging the surface, and tricky to get into corners. This is more important when painting than glassing. I prefer an orbital sander, and you can get round or square tools which can help with joints and seams.
After sanding, wipe with a wet cloth first, then acetone, to ensure a REALLY clean surface. If doing a large surface, use compressed air to get the surface dust off before wiping with water. If you can get a hose on it, do that too, then wipe with a clean cloth. When you wipe with the acetone, only the smallest amount of very fine dust should be left. If the contractors sanded or ground the surface, and cleaned properly, that new glass will be as strong as the original hull.
Love the hands on honest approach of all that you guys do. Your channel is in inspiration!
I’m an industrial designer and used that foam to make models at design school years ago. It has a smooth skin on the finished processed side and I would always sand past that to the porous foam before laminating blocks together as the factory surfaces always delaminated.
Live and learn.. its definitely all in the prep work! As an older gentleman thats been boating 50yrs doin most projects on my own and now having my son owning his own boat business, as i tell him all the time hard work pays off. "You have to bleed to get somewhere". Awesome to see the test prep. Lets not forget when UMA will be retro fitted with all new interior walls bulk heads it will be extremely strong. I dont comment as i just normally sit back and enjoy the boating life of your videos but this one got me. Keep positive vibes and UMA will be just fine to sail again! (I was skeptical on first start of this project knowing theres a crap ton of work being a boat person) Awesome to see your dedication getting UMA new life. This chapter anyway. Cant wait to see that bottle break on her way to the next adventure.😊
A good engineering principle is :"Run samples". In your case a little sample of wetted out glass bonded to the inside of the hull, and formed to stick out at right angles( and then broken off) would have given you a true data point as to whether the vinyl ester resin would bond to your existing hull.
Obviously I don't know everything that's going on with your build and it sounds like you've got a lot of smart people helping already, but I'm a boat builder manufacturing fibreglass boats with vinylester resin doing very similar things to what you're currently doing. We find that the resin we use when infusing parts tends to be harder to bond to and requires additional coupling agents or adhesion promoters beyond just cleaning and grinding. On the point of grinding, ALWAYS rough the surface, if you're laminating on top of a peelply finish then a quick scuff with 40 grit sandpaper is generally ok but if it's a smooth resin finish or an infused finish you want to ensure its well ground.
I primarily do systems fit off work and only a few weeks every year I help laminate the structure but to the best of my knowledge. 1 clean the surface as you've been doing, 2 grind or sand to create the mechanical bond, 3 prime with a bonding agent, this might be a thin coat of a good structure adhesive or perhaps additives like silanes in the resin, I can't advise on this as it's not my area of expertise. 4 laminate, I won't explain you already know. 5 peelply so that it's easier to grind, easier been the key word there.
This might be late or information you already have but it's another data point so I hope it helps 🙂
The 'thickness' of the resin will determine its ability to fill the micro cracks made by the preparation.
Filleting the edges of the foam ribs will distribute the forces over a much larger area.
Everything gets back to the distribution of forces.
Architects bring the future perfect.
Engineers bring durability.
Think Buckminster Fuller.
I have no wish to be critical. Education expands.I absolutely adore your work.
Love ya guts.
Whew!! Well done. Serendipity that you did the sample as an illustration. Caused a bump in confidence but now you can be even more confident. Appreciate the other comments already provided as well. Uma Nation has yer back.
You two are a special coupling of two humans . . . . and we all Love You for who you are as individuals AND as Life Partners.
every boat builder that I've worked with is that you ALWAYS need to sand after you've taken off your peel ply. Its a secondary bond and you want to sand it well...good luck with it! Phil
Good news! I would get an ultrasound of the areas you hit with a hammer on the hull just as insurance. Also dragging a chain over the hull interior and listing for hollow sounds is a good idea. Cheers!
very happy for you guys! While watching the episode I keep hearing in my brain 'measure twice cut once' which is exactly what you were doing here. well done
Polyester and Vinylester don't make the strongest mechanical or flexible bonds....as Epoxy would. So applying a primer coat of styrene thinner over existing hull surfaces that are fully dewaxed and toothed with 40grit is beneficial to enhance a degree of both chemical & mechanical bonding.
This video is what I like watching the most because it has a story arc. We have a setting (place, characters, situation), a quest (can our heroes get the new fiberglass to bond with the old?), trials and tribulations, and a resolution to the story (success, thankfully).
Conlusion and lesson for us all: ALWAYS test BEFORE
Well heinsight 20/20 z We weren’t expecting the sample to fail….
You tested and that’s what’s important, wisdom gained with stay with you
Always clean before laminating
I recommend you try epoxying the test pieces back together, then try separating them with impact again. It will show you one of the most important Must do's in boat restoration- secondary bonds need to be done with EPOXY, never ester based resins.
Great job. thanks for pointing out your mistake so we don't have to make the same one. i just got done repairing a 10 x11 inch hole in my Hall. boy did it fell good to know that I can do that kind of stuff if I need too. I bought a 21' sailboat to learn on last year. poked a hole in it when I turned to sharp and the back end of my truck pushed a hole in it. but that why I bought a 21 foot to make mistakes with, less stressful making mistakes with a 3000 then a 50000 to 100000 boat. you guys have been a real inspiration.
That was absolutely brilliant - I'm so impressed. Such a clear demonstration of how proper preparation helps to ensure a good bond and, therefore an effective structure. Thank you for this most informative video. clean and grind, clean and grind.........
Hey guys, I've worked with fiberglass for over 30 years, I don't know how long it had been when you started hitting it with a hammer, but I've found the longer it's been since you glass, more it cures and stronger it will be, and as long as you keep it clean, your glass inside the boat is a great job, and will last for another 50 years, and I've also noticed that bigger the total glass area, the over strength is much better, so be at easy guys, you done a great job so far, good luck and God bless you guys
So relieved that you found out what the problem was.
I had a funny feeling that it was something that you did differently with the surface preparation.
I couldn't imagine that the yard would do all that work only to hand you a huge bill and a little note attached to it that said that everything would pop off as soon as you hit a wave.
I'm very happy that things went the way they did! You're now back to being only the Uma Nation. However the Lami Nation will always be part of the Uma Nation! : - ) The D-Lami Nation has been permanently split off from all other relevant Nations!
I see what you did there.
Wow! That shows how much detailed knowledge is required to do fiberglass-work! It is anything but just throw some glass and some epoxy on. Wet in wet, wet-dry, temperature - humidity impact... It is very inspiring and educational to see you guys deep dive into it 🙂. Love it!
I can imagine the relief you must have been feeling after this !
And now , carry on carrying on 😊
You two are the best team. I want all the good things for you.
Yes! Onward. Trials and tribulations make engaging videos. We are routing for you!!!
Phew! Glad you figured it out and that progress can continue!
Holy cow, my heart just sank into my stomach. My brain just went numb thinking about what you found. Thanks for sharing this very important info. You guy's rock! 💖 ⛵
And my cow just fell out of my stomach. And that felt like rocks.
sharing the good stuff is easy but being humble and sharing the bad to is a great blessing...
so many see instant gratification and only ever winning online and it warps peoples perspective of life.
the want everything to always work and be good and go to plan and that is rarely the case.
thanks foir sharing some hardships.. heh.. hard... ship...
I won't repeat what everyone else has already said, I'm rooting for your success and return to the seas and I believe you know where things went wrong at this point. Keep pushing, you'll be finished before you know it.
I had the same sinking feeling last week. We’ve all been there.
I had a feeling that the fact you didn’t grind the glass before gluing the stringer was a possible cause for the failure. I haven’t done much glasswork but having a clean roughed up surface gives the resin something to bond with.
Glad you could turn that frown upside down. Keep up the good work. 👍
i learned so much from video and comments that i an pretty confident that i can do some renovation at my 46 years old boat by myself
Thanks Dan and Kika!
you videos always cinematic, dramatic, entertaining and educational at the same time. you are number one sailing channel!
You made a comment at 16:45 about the timing of laminating. That does make a difference. You have to determine the per the particular resin you're using, what the optimal lamination timing should be, as well as sanding if necessary.
Built large composite structures as an engineer, including airframes. Impressed at the methodical approach you've taken to evaluate a potential issue.
OMgosh we were having serious feels with you guys this week... so glad its turning out better than we thought!
I am full time about to start cruising and the stuff you all show is intimidating and inspiring. Much love from sailing Abroad hope our paths cross.
This is the most anxious.I've been for an episode in a long wfile.Hoping all your tests go well
Good to see that it worked out well. Thanks for sharing your experience and process of finding solutions!
I can not tell you how my heart sunk in Last week step, and to have you guy test it so that you fell ok with the way repairs are going (beating the hull with a hammer, which made me cringe and laugh the same time) and the final testwhere the glass work as it shoud have, lets me breath a sigh of relief for you! I am happy for you guys.
The shape of UMA’s hull looks amazing for an50 years boat design. She deserves the work and care your are putting on.
We agree. We've sailed a lot of boats, old and knew, and this boat sails really well. That's why she's worth fixing.
I’ve literally watched every single episode at least 4x already. I literally fall asleep to your guys channel. (In a good way). Some play crickets sounds I play Sailing Uma.
Wow. Thanks for sharing this. As a boatdeveloper myself. This is very important to know about. It is very good to watch you as always. Stay blessed😃. Best regards from the west of Norway
I had not realised that your test sample hadn’t been ground prior to bonding on the “ribs” as had been done with your hull interior.
Knowing that now, personally I’m a lot more comfortable that there’s no issue with your resin performance.
In similar work that I’ve done I’ve always used epoxy for it’s relatively forgiving nature and it’s mechanical bond strength, having had a couple of bad experiences some decades ago with polyester lamination onto old polyester substrate.
I’ve had no experience with vinylester so it’s interesting to learn about it’s properties in use.
Good vid and I’m greatly relieved for you in its outcome, but I’ll bet that my feelings of relief on the matter don’t hold a candle to yours!
Well done for your approach to investigating the issue, it’s not always easy to maintain a completely objective viewpoint when you already have so much invested in a situation.
Onwards and upwards, cheers!
😎👍🍻
Uma is beautiful! So glad the project is working out⛵
Glad to see the real hull works as designed and the sample was retested. The beating on the hull went well too. Glad to see the relief on your faces.
Don't want to burst your bubble... but after hull nearly completed, put on the mast and tighten up the stays. Different loads/stress tests may show something different. With mast on and tightened, then simulate the dock banging. The stress will be different. You'll have upward stress and lateral stress.
I believe you're on the right track, but keep testing!
Love the highs n lows of your vids and both of your adventures. Well done!
Doubt is the father of science....You tested, tick. You were not impressed. Tick. You checked and tested again until results were satisfactory. Tick, passed 100%... Without this mindset, there would be an awful lot more catastrophes in a world already, ah, "challenged". Good job guys, this is the "sharp end". Thanks for being brave enough to share x🤗🤗
Last weeks scary ending totally gripped me. I have not been able to get it outa my head... ...good to see your recent testing went better...
My heart sank after the last episode. Any doubts contact Parley Revival he did a huge amount if glassing on his hurricane damaged cat. So happy things and the glassing method have been investigated and Uma’s ribcage is looking mighty fine. Greg 🇬🇧
love the experiments and the learning curve towards a super Uma
I am impressed with your brave testing and experimentation. I am confident if you follow the direction of the Boat Builder, you will rebuild UMA the way she deserves to be!
Great test. I also thought you could laminate directly over glass handled with peel ply. I nuild skis and snowboards and luckily always in 1 layup, so it hasnt comprimised anything i have built. Thanks for sharing.
And smooth sailing with your rebuild.
your comments on faith and doubt apply to so many things in life!
GOOD LUCK guys! Your fans out here are hoping it all works out great!!! fingers crossed!
Understanding the how's and why's is certainly a key to success in such projects. Good way to go, keep plugging things !!
Thank you so much, I have learned at lot for this video, the bonding is key: so fist degrease, then sand and remove dust and degrease again. Then you can start to rebound new glass to the excisting structure. Keep on the good work.
Please please please don’t ever change the outro whistle. It brings me joy.
So glad you pulled advice from the vast Uma nation, and you folks have been diligent in your own testing. You model thoughtful and careful stewardship! Could the issue have been lack of using acetone to do a final wipe down before applying the new layers? Between sanding/ scratching the surface and having unseeable contaminants, there are probably a host of issues, but those two stand out as the big ones in my experience. Good luck with the evolution of your ‘remodel!’ We all are looking forward to seeing the interesting developments!
I'm not a fiberglas expert but I did hire one of the best in New England to rebuild a transom on a boat back in the early 90s - to make it much better than the original factory glass chop garbage and able to withstand the forces of a 1000+ horsepower stern drive setup. I watched as he worked. Essentially, you can add multiple layers of different fiberglas substrate - building up the thickness as you go - but it must be wet (short time window). If it cures or flashes, than the surface must be "reprepped" to begin layering again and roughening or grinding the surface is a critical step in that process.
I'd wondered about the surface on you first test panel. Keying the surface before a lamination is so important- even if using peel-ply! Glad that you guys are feeling better about your upgrades! Take good care!
Love you guys! Glad you alleviated your worries. Be well. ❤
UMA looks amazing great job love the repair and construction videos
Very interesting video. I worked in a boat factory long ago and still do some of this stuff occasionally. You have given me pause to ponder. Gonna be doing some investigation before any more projects. Thank you very much!
Great Follow up! When Dan was hitting Uma, I caught myself saying "It's okay Girl, they are just looking out for your best interest." What a relief! sweeping forward!!!!
Great news that you don't have to strip and redo all that interior structural work. Nice job on experimenting and testing. Cheers from Winnipeg.
Good to see you testing - you can't beat sanding before laminating.
Merci ! Continuez à nous faire rêver
Man that’s great news. I was waiting for this video. Congratulations! Get some rest
If you are using waxed finishing resin or adding wax you have to prep well. Always wipe down with acetone before any coat. Just dust in the air from pollen or anything can wreck a lamination.
What a scare....nice work on research and patience.
Dan & Kika, you guys are an inspiration! So much so I've been taking (slow) steps to building my own sailing dinghy. I felt terrible for you with the delamination set back.... so much so that it pushed me to join the Uma Nation just to throw a bit more support. 🤗 I'm hoping one day your sailing journey leads you to the Pacific Northwest - it would be amazing to meet you two one day!
Wishing you all the best in your next chapter of Uma adventures!
Very happy it worked out. Liked your bonding experiment as well.
I’m not not interested in these plastic building topics, but somehow I needed to see how this turns out. Great storytelling! (And now, if the talks come to delamination issues, I’ll know more about it than before…)
I wish you all luck with this renovation. One thing I hope you'll consider though is that the test you've done hammering the hull from the outside is not even near the forces of impact and torsions the oceans, docks and other real life scenarios will put your boat through. Basically, don't use that as any assurance. You are loved and we want you to stay safe.
Was thinking exactly the same. You shouldn’t be reassured by that.
It is when the hull flexes it will gradually delaminate.
I doubt any of this will cause a sudden structural failure but will gradually be noticed by squeaks etc.
Once it starts to delaminate moisture and other chemicals will find their way between the layers and speed up the process.
@@abbbee8918 That's some of what I thought. Thanks for listing. I am still concerned for them in relation to torsion forces while sailing in open oceans. They have experience so I trust they'll be OK. I am just not sure if the repairs will last as long as they'd need them though.
I was a little concerned after the last episode but this looks pretty good now.
Great step. More like a huge stride than a step. Now you have confidence in your hull within a hull I am really looking forward to seeing the build. I am interested to see what two architects came up with design wise. Uma 2.0 here we come.⛵
Wow guys! I’ve been building & doing fibreglass repairs 4 over 40 years now! I just learned sumthin new about peel ply! Thanx 4 the lessen! 👍❤️
Poor Uma going through all the trauma being hit.I think she will forgive you now that you have trust in her again.Cant wait for the interior restored.Stay safe and take care.
Vinylester resin is great. I built two Glasair planes with it. But secondary bonding is not vinylester's thing. You should have added the ribs and stringers as you went. But there' s also an issue that the same resin is lining the hull, which presumably was originally polyester or epoxy. Will the new hull eventually delaminate from the old hull? Your best answer is to use epoxy for the ribs and stringers because it does secondary bonds much better than vinylester. And is the vinylester you used a bonding resin or a finishing resin? Does it have a wax coating from a finishing resin? In that case better to use bonding resin and spray it right away with PVA. That is all.
Thinking further, the work you hired-out may be useless unless you add through fasteners to keep the delaminated inner hull lining attached to the old hull when the it flexes underway. Use stainless fasteners and replace the ribs and stringers with sheet stainless ones. Sorry. Who designed this repair?
Congratulations on figuring it out. Nothing is worse than not knowing - particularly where your safety and home are concerned.
Some manufacturers use a wax additive in resin that has to be sanded in between layers and doesn't bond well even when still tacky. You have to actually wait till each layer cures and then sand before putting a new layer on for best results.
Non tutto il male vien per nuocere! Sometimes the process of learning goes through mistakes! I'm glad you guys are sorting things out. Keep it up!💪
Honest question for Dan and Kika. Wouldn’t it be more reassuring to use epoxy resin instead and ensure s good bond for something this important? I feel like vinyl ester resin is too fiddly for bonds as important as this.
For an average DIYer, yeah, maybe epoxy. But there is a reason all the Pros and ship yards use vinylester to build boats and repair boats. For the work we're doing, it's perfect.
OMG. That was horrifying... like lightbulb is out in a basement-horror movie moment and you're yelling at the screen for them to not go down there. I am soooo relieved for you guys.
Dan and Kika hi from Calgary. Phew thank goodness for letting calmer heads prevail. Consulting with those whose experience and advise you respect. Ultimately confirming and restoring your faith in the hull strengthening design and work completed thus far. Very relieved and happy for you and Uma because it needs to return to sailing the Earths blue waters. Refit full steam ahead thank goodness
Important to point out though after enjoying your channel from day one I feel like I know you. I'm confident if the worst had happened with your personalities you would have rebounded and we'd be introduced to Uma 2.
Pleased that Uma 1, Kika and Dan triumphed, see you next week.
(Dan its Spring time in the Canadian Rockies remember, you can explain that to Kika lots of white stuff).
I'm glad you guys don't have to start over! That's fantastic⛵
For those commenting on the hot glue/foam connection note that that the foam doesn't need to be there at all, the strength comes from the laminate.
The foam isn't there to provide strength to the structure. It is only there to provide the profile/shape to get the laminate to conform to. The foam could be completely removed/not used at all if it was possible to create a square section around thin air ... but as you can't laminate against nothing foam is used to give the shape.
If you want/need strength from the shape material then you would use plywood or full thickness fibreglass. For beams though that would a lot heavier, more costly and probably too stiff (there should be some flex allowed in the structure).
Think of the foam like a former for the inside of a sink bowl. Once the laminate is cured you would remove the foam to fill the sink with water, it is only there to give a shape to apply the glass to.
That said the only improvement I can think of with putting the rib structure's in would be to laminate the foam first (to provide a square tube shape) and before immediately attaching that to the hull and laminating over that. This way the inside edge of the 'tunnel' would have a 'T' shape laminate connection rather than an 'L'' shape bond to the hull. I can only assume, as I don't see boat builders doing this, that this isn't needed as it would be much more time consuming and expensive.
This comment reminds me of something you really never want to be, confidently wrong. 😂
Interesting suggestion (T vs L). Certainly edge effects (which result in peel failure rather than direct tensile failure) are a real Achilles' heel for any adhesive resin, but especially for resins which are not toughened. The layout of the test sample made for particularly severe edge effects.
Peeling means that instead of acting across an area, failure occurs along a line (which in theory means infinitely high stress, because a line has no area).
In peeling failure, that line moves across the area.
It's (I suppose) an instance of "divide and conquer"
That is completely wrong. The foam should add significant strenght. The whole idea with structural use of foam is that you reduce the amount of heavy glass and resin and let the foam be the strenght. Modern boats or mostly foam with very thin layers of glass and resin. Carbon or other.
@@ottifantiwaalkes9289 ok, someone with a clue.
@@ottifantiwaalkes9289 This is not that sort of structure, and the modern boats you refer to are built with entirely different aims (maximum stiffness, minimum weight) to what these two have in mind. Such boats have no tolerance for running into heavy floating objects, like ice bergy bits, or deadheads (floating trees), let alone solid ice shelves or uncharted rocks.
After watching you guys I’m never using anything but epoxy! I’m not a professional, just a guy with an old boat that has been strengthening the bulkheads and adding tabbing.
Epoxy is much more friendly DIYer product for sure. There's a reason all the pros and builders use Vinylester and DIYers use epoxy.
@@SailingUma using epoxy is a poor substitute for proper prep, design and methods for DIY bogers.
I’m glad that the news is good on this :)
Thanks this a great result ive commented on every video ive ever seen that states peel ply leaves a great bonding surface and it does not we Tested this in the early 2000's. Now the internet knows if its structural grind it sand it clean it.
I was confident that the interior prep would guarantee a good bond. New lay-up you have to be really careful between layers. Once you are cured "hard" I would always rough up the surface and clean it with acetone before trying to bond to it.
You absolutely have to sand a peel ply surface to bond to. The peel ply gives you a nice resin rich surface to sand back without cutting into the fibres of the last layer.
that is WONDERFUL news. Now you continue with confidence.
This is a really insightful video for anybody looking to lay glass. Nice job investigating what happened.
What a roller coaster!!!! Keep at it!