Why Does Greek Music Sound Eastern? - And Why It's a Dumb Question
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 มิ.ย. 2024
- Man talks in Greece about things.png
This video is an in-depth discussion and analysis of the discrepancy between our typical understanding of Greece worldwide, and its nature as cultural force situated between and having aspects of both Western and Eastern cultural zones, and how recent political narratives emphasised the former at the expense of the latter. Please remember that as always, these discussions have a broad historical scope, therefore responses like "what about Greek jazz/rock/metal" are irrelevant to a scope focused on the permanent generalities of Greek music over 2500 years, not just the previous 50.
Articles and media mentioned:
The Westernisation of Greek Music by Katy Romanou:
www.academia.edu/2154302/West...
Alexander Lingas' discussion and papers on the controversies of Byzantine chant:
• What did Byzantine mus...
www.academia.edu/608245/Perfo...
00:00 The Zorba, Italian-like sound is a regional exception
05:44 No, Greek music wasn’t “orientalised,” it was always “oriental”
07:18 Why are we even surprised that Greek music sounds eastern?
08:42 The invention of a “Western” Ancient Greece
15:44 Blaming the “evil Westerners,” is easy, but natives oft colonise themselves
24:32 The Magic Wall between Anatolia and Europe
29:52 We can accept Greece being influenced by the East, but not being eastern herself
34:12 How tourism reinforces misconceptions
44:08 Thermopylae: the European West vs the Brown East
48:14 East and West are overlapping circles, not separate boxes.
50:32 Conclusions - เพลง
RESPONSES TO COMMONLY ASKED QUESTIONS IN THE COMMENTS:
1.About the Zorba song not being “Cretan music,” and being Ionian, since I may not have been clear enough:
The Zorba song was reportedly based on a song made in Crete. This one: th-cam.com/video/OS_JajwgM2s/w-d-xo.html
Zorba was indeed *based* on a piece of Cretan music, but the Zorba song itself shares none of the defining typological features of Cretan music, which is a highly modal, melodic tradition with very basic power chords acting as the only harmonic presence in the music. The people claiming that Zorba’s theme is “typical Cretan music” are willfully ignoring how the song works to characterise it on the basis of what inspired it in the first place, rather than what it actually is as an end result. It is evidently clear, from a musicological point of view, that Theodorakis (Zorba’s composer) started with a Cretan inspiration, but filtered it and translated it into an entirely Western sensibility, ending up with a Western result. Inspiration and final result are not one and the same.
To get an idea of the contrast, here is an example of far more typical Cretan music in the same film: th-cam.com/video/unXlDkyEbdA/w-d-xo.html
As for why I refer to Zorba’s song as Ionian, I’m not claiming that it’s a traditional piece from the folk repertoire of the Ionian. It is ultimately a modern composition by Theodorakis, however, upon looking at its typological features, (a harmonic progression serves as the foundation of the piece, modality and ornamentation are absent, microtonal inflection/chromatic ornamentation of the diatonic base is not present, etc.), it matches up with Ionian principles, which are the only natively Western typological features in the Greek cultural context.
I should have explained this better this in the video: Zorba’s song isn’t necessarily Ionian; and has features of other regions such as the basic rhythm being similar to Hasapiko; rather, it is a modern composition whose fundamental features are ultimately rooted in Ionian principles. This stance is supported by one the sources mentioned below, which show that, for all intents and purposes, all basic Western musical vocabulary in Greece like harmony and reduction of modality/chromaticism are fundamentally rooted in Ionian influence, as it was the base from which these elements later entered Greek culture. Therefore, my usage of the term “Ionian” in this video should be understood more as being synonymous with Western typological features such as harmony and lack of modality within a minor-major dualism, rather than referring to specific Ionian genres or musical forms like cantandes.
2. "You don't know about the rest of Greek music. Yes, the music of the islands sounds eastern, but you need to learn about mainland music like Epirotic. Those don't sound Eastern." To the people saying this, you're welcome to browse my channel and see for yourself that I am very much aware of other styles outside of Nisiotika, like Epirotic or Thracian music. When I say "Eastern" in this video, I purposefully mean *all* regional forms of Greek music, including Epirotic, Attic, Thracian, Thessalonian, etc. I understand that different people may have different ideas of what is "Eastern," but I am using the typical ethnomusicological definition of "Eastern," which consists of typological features I listed in the beginning:
"Traditions that are melodic, modal, based on usul-like percussive patterns, heterophonic, highly ornamental on the melodic line, not based on the Western Tonal system, with roots in the modal styles of Medieval Greek music of the Byzantine Era, and overlapping in a fundamental sense with traditions east of the Bosporus." That is the clear set of musicological features that I define as "Eastern," and it applies to all forms of Greek music except for Ionian. So although I primarily use Cretan and Nisiotika as examples in the video, I am very well aware of Greek music outside of those, and am knowingly applying the term "eastern" to all the others too. I understand the term "Eastern" can be confusing and misleading, but I am only working with the most common terminology in the field, and regarding those features, "eastern/oriental," are the most commonly used ones. Within this framework, Kalamatiano, Tsamiko, Epirotic Miroloi and Peloponnese folk songs are also considered "Eastern," at least to a large degree.
3. Regarding the Metaxas regime’s attitude towards oriental music: I should have explained better that the active police raids banning music altogether specifically targeted rembetiko tavernas, primarily because they were centres of drug use. However, the Eurocentric hostility towards oriental music also played a large part in banning this Asia Minor-based form of music, and whilst Metaxas did not outright ban instruments like the oud, he and other regimes before his like Venizelos’, all born out of the Western cultivated narrative of Greece being purely Western, implemented all sorts of means to push down oriental musical aspects and instruments and prop us Western ones instead.
kk thx for reading love you bye 😘
Man talks in Greece about things.png
This video is an in-depth discussion and analysis of the discrepancy between our typical understanding of Greece worldwide, and its nature as cultural force situated between and having aspects of both Western and Eastern cultural zones, and how recent political narratives emphasised the former at the expense of the latter. Please remember that as always, these discussions have a broad historical scope, therefore responses like "what about Greek jazz/rock/metal" are irrelevant to a scope focused on the permanent generalities of Greek music over 2500 years, not just the previous 50.
Articles and media mentioned:
The Westernisation of Greek Music by Katy Romanou:
www.academia.edu/2154302/Westernization_of_Greek_music
Between Orientalism and Occidentalism by Stathis Gauntlett
academia.edu/resource/work/23079847
Alexander Lingas' discussion and papers on the controversies of Byzantine chant:
th-cam.com/video/XhOvv-2l5hM/w-d-xo.html
www.academia.edu/608245/Performance_Practice_and_the_Politics_of_Transcribing_Byzantine_Chant
“When Progress Fails, Try Greekness: From Manolis Kalomiris to Manos Hadjidakis and Mikis Theodorakis
Paris Konstantinidis” by Manolis Konstandinis: academia.edu/resource/work/6938904
Thank you so much for this. Most Greek-Americans don't understand that Greeks were present in all part of Anatolia, Egypt and the Levant up through the modern era. It is sad. They aren't Greeks. They are "Hellenes". They only undestand modern Greece as Greek.
No relation at all
Hello Farya, wonderful video! I just wanted to add something I thought was interesting. You talk a lot about how Zorba's Dance has been used to create a westernized view of Greece. And I found this both tragic and ironic because perhaps my favorite quote from the original book Zorba the Greek by Nikos Kazantzakis is when he describes Greece as "the marvelous synthesis of East and West". The quote has always stuck with me and its something I think about a lot with my own Greek identity. I feel like this whole video is kind of like a love letter to this marvelous synthesis that I am so proud to be a part of. So thank you for putting in all the effort to truly understand my culture and educate others about it because so many are content with holding onto their misconceptions
Hi Farya,
There is one other unexpected and continuously opposed aspect of the ancient Hellenic civilisation- the religious practices that include the use of psilocybin and its huge role in the proto christian religion. The book by Brian Muraresko - The Immortality key, dives deep into this topic, also observing closely the everlasting dilemma of the Greeks - are we westerners or more easterners. I strongly believe that this religious related topic is very well connected with the topic you are speaking of - music, because music is playing main role in peoples life in the past, now it is hard to say it is music what we generate but this is another topic for a very long debate. Anyways, dont want to bore you, it’s getting too long already.
Congrats on the great work, your point is spot on. Who is interested in history and cultures immediately understands what you are trying to say and explain.
Greetings from Bulgaria.
For you dearest Farya, food for thought: Fredrich Nietzsche, the ultimate German philosopher, on the Greeks:
"Proven in every period of its development, the western European culture has tried to rid himself of the Greeks. This work is imbued with deep disappointment, because whatever we create, seemingly original and worthy of admiration, lose color and life in comparison with the Greek mode, came to resemble a cheap copy, a caricature.
So again and again soaked in a rage erupts hatred against the Greeks, against this small and arrogant nation, who had the nerve to call it barbaric whatever that had not been established in its territory ...
None of the recurrent enemies had the fortune to discover the hemlock, which could for ever be rid of them. All poisons of envy, of hubris, hatred, have been insufficient to disturb the great beauty.
Thus, people continue to feel shame and fear of the Greeks. Of course, occasionally, someone appears to recognize intact truth, truth which teaches that the Greeks are the charioteers of any upcoming culture and almost always as the chariots and horses of the upcoming cultures is very low quality compared to the charioteer, who eventually work out driving his chariot into the abyss, which are beyond the Achilles 'Leap'."
I am a tourist guide in Crete, mainly working with French and Americans, and EVERY TIME that I will put on some traditional cretan music, I see those faces filled with surprise telling me "this is oriental music it's not greek", I mean, if I had a penny for the times I've heard that...And the fact is that there is contempt there too. Well, have you seen where are you in a map??? And they are very disappointed to learn that Zorba means nothing to us, that it was just made for the tourists, and even more that they will not listen to that bullshit in my bus. Very good work Farya, aferim!!!
Hello, I have a question. Do you use the word “aferin/aferim” in Crete? That surprised me 🙂 greetings from Turkey, we have the same word for the same purpose.
Also; I’ve been in Crete. It’s my favourite place in all Greece.
@@ozanbayrak562 Nope we don't. Maybe only the Greeks from minor Asia that came to the island who had knowledge of turkish language and their next generation who were hearing them using words here and there sometimes. But that was many years ago and it went extinct.
@@antoniosvidakis thanks.
Very interesting. Many people would be surprised at hearing more authentic Greek music especially if they have only heard what the entertainment industry has presented.
I experience the same reaction from people when they hear our "real" Sicilian folk music for the first time. They expect to hear a more typical Italian or Neopolitan sound but are surprised at what they hear. Sicily is a crossroad of cultures and it was historically a Greek colony, part of the Byzantine empire and also conquered by thr Arabs so traditional Sicilians folk songs can sound very different from mainland Italy with even an Eastern wail sound to them which sounds exotic to people.
I'm Lebanese. When I visited Athens I heard my Greek friend playing music on the radio. And I nearly asked him why he listens to Arabic music. Then it occurred to me that I've been listening to Greek music this whole time!
"East and West are overlapping circles, not separate boxes."
Couldn't have said it better myself as a Turk.
Of course, have people never heard of Anatolia before? Persia and Greece were influencing each other for millennia.
@@gokcenzkaya By the time Christianity came to Europe, it was already lost to the West (to Rome). If however, as Nietzsche suggested; that Greece went to Persia instead of Rome, we would be dealing with a radically different history. I doubt Christianity would have even taken off in Europe if that were the case... But I agree with you, everything to the west of the Hellespont was classified as Europe when Rome fell and they moved their capital to Greece. However for millennia before that, there were Greek satrapies in Anatolia, the Achaemenids tried to invade Attica and eventually Alexander brought Greek culture to the entire Persian Empire. Constantinople wanted to ignore this history and claim that they were the inheritors of Rome and the true guardians of Europe.
Look, man, how are elites supposed to spread ignorance and hate as a control method of their people. Shame on you
Aye aye, never thought, as armenian, that will agree with turk, but I hope this suprises won't end :)
Reject the east, reject the west, embrace the steppe
As a Greek I'm proud of our 'oriental' culture and we need to stop denying it. We are a fusion of east and west. 🧿🇬🇷
@@Ahmed-pf3lg The 🧿 is all over our Greek home 😆
@@Ahmed-pf3lg yes we've used it for 1000s of years
I also noticed that medieval Iberian music also has an oriental sound to it like Sephardic and Andalusias music it seem that oriental style is all over the Mediterranean I know Iberia was under Islamic control for like 800 years but that eastern sound probably goes farther back in In history
@@Ahmed-pf3lg Iberia was colonized by Greeks and Phoenicians and later Romans in antiquity
@@RaffiJaharian There are so many interactions between our ancestors in the past over hundreds of years & complex to understand who influenced who & how much, it would be a surprise if there weren’t similarities.
As a Greek person you're one of the few people that understand our music and history thank you 🇬🇷❤️🇮🇷
We hate That Islamic republic flag Friend but i love greece too💚🤍☀️🦁♥️🇬🇷
@@StormbringerI lmao you support cuckin yourself
@witcherpunk3633 I know but it's the only flag available
Greek music comes from Greek gods and strong sperm 🫡💪
@@StormbringerIyes Persian flag then
WTF? Why a foreigner UNDERSTANDS SO GOOD our Music, our History, our Traditions and maybe better than many Greeks? Sir, you have my deepest respect for that. Thank you for your effort!
because many Greeks nowadays have fallen victim to the new world order that tells us we have nothing in common with our ancestors and everything is taken from our former oppressors
Because you guys became a tool for germans, french and English to have a history to brag about to the eastern civilisation.
The problem is lot of ur people are literally hurting greece and it’s place in the world by claiming to be part of this imaginary Europe and the west , while greece is extremely eastern and historically has been connected to the middle east and the Mediterranean in all of it’s golden ages.
I mean why no idiot ever ask himself: oh why did alexander choose to expand east than north and west?
Because he is an "outsider" who doesn't have to prove something,namely that he is a west european when he isn't. Crucially also, he is not european,or more precisely westerner.
Research
@@dogrudiyosun yeah, the rampant racism is getting wild here , and the kind of comment that OP made is literally because they are too brainwashed to even consider researching any other culture than their own, ever.
I’m Serbian and I tried to explain this to so many people. We didn’t get all of our music from the Turks as some people claim, it was already in the Balkans long before the Turks came. Thank you so much for this and all your other videos. I’m a huge fan! Best regards and love from Serbia
🇮🇷❤️🇷🇸🙌🏼🙏🏼
True
Greek here
💙🤍
Kinda related. Many traditional dances from the north of greece are EXTREMELY similar to serbian folk dances and I find this pretty neat. Whenever I come across serbian folk music I get pumped because..I CAN DANCE TO THIS, I KNOW this music. Especially this eeird little half-step I ve noticed in the dances is so similar to the style of northen greek music.
As a Greek I want to congratulate you for speaking out especially about what the west cherry picks out of us whenever they want. We never lost our identity and that just pisses them off.
Just like Tarantella Napoletana has become the stereotypical Italian music or the Bavarian umpa-umpa brass bands that of us Germans despite them, just like apparently with you Greeks and your special song, being rather the exception than the norm
😂
You can also see this in the 'study' of history, where many eurocentric armchair experts go through ridiculous lengths to discredit the Eastern Roman empire as 'byzantine' and 'eastern' and 'not truly roman' because of its Greek cultural influence.
The 'oriental' character of the Romans offends their white supremacist vision of their founding mythology so much, that they have to engage in full-on revisionism to be able to sleep at night.
Why are you blaming this on the "West"? Actually the Greek people have been themselves divided over their identity since the 18th century because different groups of intellectuals have had to navigate between the ancient Greek, the Roman, the pagan, the Christian and the Ottoman elements of their history. Many Greeks are way more hateful towards their "oriental" elements than many westerners ever would.
Even the very name "Greek" wasn't used by the Greek-speaking people for centuries, but they called themselves "Romans". Which shows that Greece has undergone a deep transformation and had to reinvent itself as an independent state after the fall of the Roman Empire and four centuries of Ottoman rule. Of course, the West has been influenced the discourse within Greece, but Greece has itself been divided over its identity, and it's not the only country to have experienced such internal strife.
Furthermore, the hatred towards the "oriental" within conservative nationalist Greek circles, in opposition to the Ottomans and then Turkey, is very strong.
Greeks of Asia minor called themselves Romyie, like Romans.
For Europe Greece may be the East, for the Arabs Greece is the West, but for us they are brothers. Greetings from Armenia to Greek brothers, your music is great! Farya, thank you for showing people the truth about music. I also want you to make a video about Western Armenian music and Eastern Armenian music sometime, because it's an interesting topic!
In my experience as a wedding photographer for 8 years, the most similar vibes I ever saw between two cultures was Armenians and Greeks haha
@@faryafaraji Yes, Greeks love the Armenians always. FARYA, you don't find similarities in the dabke dance with Greek dances (?) because I and all of my cousins absolutely do.
@arameaiv GREETNGS TO YOU BACK BROTHER. With all my love from Greece and ALL the GREEKS this I can guarantee.
@@faryafaraji Yes, we have very similar cultures. But few people from Greece and Armenia know about the similarities that we have
@@miastupid7911 Big respect and love from all Armenians
As a Greek when i was younger i was trying to be as western as possible now that im over that phase i realized how beautiful my culture truly is and being part of the Oriental is pretty nice many people are made to feel guilty for being in a non western culture a general trend in many non western societies
Unfortunately bro the political establishment here is 100% slavish to the West and because of that we've been indoctrinated since childhood that we should be ''Westernised'' so that we will be more ''civilized'', when in fact this is far from being the truth.
Same for us Iranians, I used to have a complex when younger that my identity is Eastern, but now I celebrate it just as much as my Canadian identity, none less than the other
As a young Greek myself, I can't possibly agree more with this.
@@faryafaraji Me too as Arab. We all have amazing food, culture, and history compared to Canada or US, or some other parts of the world. I also like how we don't give a fuck about safety, like no helmets while on motorcycles, people drive crazy, people sit on a truck bed while on the highway, we don't force vaccines or medical treatments, we have less regulations so you'll see hundreds of sheep eating grass on the side of the highway. Nanny state vs Eunany state.
Western culture has financial dominance and we are pulled in that direction for practical reasons. But when you get older you realise there are many rich fools that are tone deaf 😉
There is a common sentiment/joke (Christian Turks {maybe offensive} is a joke used a lot to describe Greeks around here) in Turkey that we influenced Greek music but turns out it was them who influenced us. A few weeks ago a Byzantine chant become viral on Turkish twitter because of how similar it sounded to a popular genre commonly called Arabesque in Turkey. The sad part is Greek culture is much, much more fascinating than what "sympathizers" forced down on them. The unknown dance is very popular in the Blacksea region of Turkey including the same instruments btw, it's called Horon in Turkey.
As per tradition: 🇹🇷
Love u too ❤️💙
We know that
Greetings from Greece 🇬🇷
I'm not Greek, but I always believed that most of Greek music was inherently modal and the Greek popular modes were mainly inspired by the Byzantine modes. Your epic Byzantine music playlist is a great example of this.
Indeed,in my Island Creta music is 80 % Byzantine the pure traditional songs are without organs aswell.
Just like Byzantine music
The story Farya tells about the generic Greek music that they play to tourists, which gets switched into the actual traditional local music after they have left, reminds me of the documentary series, _Jazz_ by Ken Burns.
Jazz musicians will often play sweet, safe tunes for patrons but will only start jamming for real "after the squares have left."
And I would add got drunk a little bit 😉
Very interesting.
This is true! However, go to the smaller/less cosmo islands and you’ll hear violin and laouto all night!
A perfect example of this Westernization is the ancient "Pristine White Marble Statues". The west grabbed on to this image and said look how "Western and Refined". Now we know that all of these statues were painted in bright colours from top to toe. If you present the art in this way, people get amazingly upset...
People get upset because the "reconstructed" painted statues in popular media are ugly and garish, and not what the ancient painted statues looked like. They reconstructed the statues using the crudest painting techniques of just slapping the same colour on a whole section, no shading or colour depth. We know from e.g frescoes that the ancient Greeks had subtler painting techniques, and it would be ridiculous to think they used the crudest schoolkid painting techniques on these masterworks.
them kids with the "retvrn to tradition" and shieeet.
@@leepenn2493 This is just wishful thinking. What is garish and tacky to us in the modern world was not seen in the same way in the ancient world. They loved bright colours. Questions? Why would the ancient Greeks be any better at painting then the peoples of Egypt or Persian etc.... None of these cultures at the time were known for shading or colour depth. Colours had religious significance. Also historians will only restore from information that we know... if red ochre was found in the knee, toe and the crook of the elbow... all we know is all of the skin was painted this colour (shading? who knows?). Adding that shading would be historical revisionism. Also you talk about frescoes. Have you seen some of the reconstructions that are historically accurate. Most of that shading has come from age reacting to the medium (paint on wet plaster). A lot of these delicate outlines and shaded effects come from these paints being applied first when the plaster was very wet and these pigments sink. Paints become more fragile as the plaster dries. Art historians and modern archaeologist do these reconstructions using pigments, tools and samples available . Painted ceramics (those lovely black vessels of Greek hero's) show absolutely no intentional use of shading. We in the modern world fall for the "Greek Revival effect" where the revival represents ancient Greek art more than the original examples.
@@cliffcolter9161 There's a difference between liking brightly coloured clothing and being unable to use more then one paint to imitate skin colour
It's funnily enough the same thing with the very much western medieval statues and buildings we have, too. Of course, unpainted stonework existed in all ages, but when you tell people castles and cathedrals were actually often painted bright white or, on the inside (sometimes ouside, too), often with colourful frescoes, they get upset that the ashen grey many of them have now wasn't their intended appearance. Or look at medieval saints - so many of their statues are stone-cold now, when they originally were painted in vivid colour.
As a Moroccan, I feel closer to a greek than to a western germanic person. Your culture really is just eastern mediterranean and its values are very similar because you are mediterranean. And the greece were in history more part of the Middle Eastern theater of geopolitics and culture than western germanic europe.
I guess that goes together with the financial aspects too? xD
I see myself closer to Arabs from the Med than a Germanic as well so you're on to something.
@@HladniSjeverniVjetaryou dumb fuck. Atleast we're not depressed and live in cold shitholes
I don't know much but I believe the Levant which was mainly not inclusive of Greece was in a sense inclusive of Greece, if a little more peripherally, perhaps because of trade and because of Greek populations in Asia minor and Syria and other geographical locales.
Since you're a Morrocan look up what an Irish Musician who for more than 30 years has been living In Crete and plays the Cretan Lyre ,a forerunner of the modern violin says.
His name is Ross Daly and he explains that from Morroco all the way to China all along that latitude,
Morroco and China share more in common musically than Morroco and France which are much closer to each other.
Im an amazigh from algeria and in my first trip to greece, I was shocked to discover so much similarities between our culture and country. From the olive based diet to the landscape, I feel at home in a foreighn land A lot of people forget it but the mediterenean people share so much than what we tought!.
Yeah. Certainly in medieval, very probably in the early modern period, and possibly as late as the 19th century, a concept of Europeanness would scarcely make sense. Cultures around the Mediterranean were and I'd argue are more similar to each other than to European, Middle Eastern of northern-half-of-African cultures outside the Mediterranean. A Christian, romance-speaking Sicilian would have seen himself as having more in common with a Muslim, arabic-speaking Egyptian than with a Christian, norse-speaking Dane in the high-to-late middle ages
@@bvthebalkananarchistmapper5642 yes many nations and cultures share the same heritage and are linked together, especially in a geographical point. A fascinated and very much necessary topic to study, especially in our modern times
The Byzantine empire was indeed a synthesis of east and west, you had emperors whose background and ancestry was Armenian, Syrian and in the case of Nikophoros I his family was Arabic in origin (Ghassanid). The philhellenes of the 18-19th century had no interest in the medieval eastern Roman Empire, they looked down on it actually.
Faryah liked your comment, Pliska 811 incoming
And unfortunately many Greeks at the time, especially those who lived in the west, looked down on anything resembling Byzantine (Rum) and not Hellenic. And then you had the philhellenes who fantasized, men in togas indulging in furious philosophical debates conversing in Classical Greek. These westernized Greeks (Adamantios Korais, Theophilos Kairis, Methodios Anthrakitis, Athanassios Psalidas etc) even constructed an artificial language called Katharevousa (Purified) based on ancient Greek to be used as the official language of the newly formed Greek kingdom (who had a Bavarian chosen by the western powers as its first king) instead of a peculiar form of Romeika or demotic Greek spoken by piss-poor goat-herders. Our modern state is built upon the theory of 'Metakenosis', i.e. the transfusion or decanting of ancient Hellenic ideas/ethos/heritage from western Europe to the newly established Greek state, leaving aside a thousand-year old culture because, according to their contemporary Edward Gibbon, it was a decadent civilisation, destructive to the great culture that preceded it.
@@apmoy70ellenes may have been the ancestors to most of us but we are still Ρωμαίοι in essence no matter how we might call ourselves today
I sometimes wonder if we’d still call ourselves Hellenes If Constantinople was conquered nowadays
@@fallennarcotic6981 Νever in our history "Greekness" was a racial property, it always has been a cultural one. The Medieval Eastern Romans were Greek culturally and not genetically, had Roman cizitenship (they were subjects of the Roman emperor residing in Constantinople) and were Christians. Modern Greeks (be it descendants of the bilingual Arvanites, the Latin speaking Vlachs, the Muslim Pomaks), are not Greek "racially" but because they have chosen to be part of a certain culture. So, I'd say that if Constantinople wasn't conquered, it'd still define itself as Roman culturally, with Greek, Armenian, Thracian, Slavic, even Turkic, ethnicities
@@apmoy70 you are mostly right. We all call ourselves Greek because of our culture and not by genetics while also acknowledging the different genetic Make-up in the country. For example I consider myself a Greek but my ancestors are Vlachs which I don’t consider descendants of ancient Greeks at all. Some of my ancestors didn’t even know the Greek language. And yes being Greek was a genetically thing even back in ancient times when people based it on their lineage. The reason we have names like Vlachs, arvanites and so on is because we know they are sharing the same culture but hail from different „groups“ let’s say. There is still the simple „normal“ Greek. But that’s not the point I wanted to make.
The point I was trying to make is that the culture which binds us together nowadays is not the Hellenic culture. It is what we do poetically call „ρωμιοσυνη“. Greek language and Christian religion is not hellenic. It is what evolved out of hellenism but it is not that. That is what I mean by saying we are really Ρωμαίοι and not Hellenes
Thank you Farya. I am from Iran, I have visited Greece many times and I have so many Greek friends. In fact, both Iranians and Greeks who met each other, know that how much we are close to each other from culture to music to foods. Even both side highlighted this when they talk to people of other countries. Lots of love to my Greek brothers and sisters.
I find they we are similar in temperament. Iranians probably being more gentle and sensitive people from my experience
We always been very close. The main gaps today between us are religion and politics.
Could it all go back from the Greek and parfian interaction? Sorry I spelled Parfia wrong😅
@@dmitriydonskoy5665what's your problem? Are you stupid or something?
@@dmitriydonskoy5665 as he said we were neighbors. And our language are frome same roots. Even our religions were similar because they are coming from the same root.
Εσαι Φοβερός! As a Greek musician I have long been struggling to explain this concept to foreigners, and this is an expertly crafted Academic essay, It is important to show both Greeks and foreigners that we are a culture that is the bridge of East and West and how much our culture is a melting pot of both instead of viewing it so stereotypically and dividing it into groups of Western or Eastern.
It’s accurate to assert that much of the orientalism in the East itself originated in Greece and spread throughout the Islamic world via the Ottomans, who adopted it from the Byzantine Greeks.
It reminds me of how Byzantine chants and architecture influenced the Ottomans and how they then became fundamental to Islamic culture. Claiming the Ottomans orientalized Greece would be like claiming the architecture of the Hahia Sophia was influenced by the Blue Mosque
I think the elephant in the room is religion. "Muslim" music is often used synonymously with Arabic music, which to those who don't know better obviously does nothing but add to the confusion and cognitive dissonance of hearing music of that nature in a place where Christianity is so prominent
That’s a really good point I should have mentionned, thanks for bringing it up!
I don't think that's the case because Greek Orthodox chant is extremely "middle-eastern" sounding to most peoples ears. For Greeks themselves religion wouldn't be a factor because it's our religious Christian identity that is eastern in not only its origins of the religion itself but in her music. Also, Greeks who are more religious (myself included) tend to either listen to traditional Greek music or play the instruments themselves. So it's actually quite the opposite, at least in my experience.
@achilleuspetreas3828 As Westerner I prefer Aramaic hymns to the awful happy chappy western church music.
Couldn't agree more. For many people Eastern/Oriental = Muslim = Arabic. Thus anything sounding "oriental" = Arabic to their eyes.
No such thing as "muslim" music
Music is forbidden in islam
I always knew that greek music influenced turkish music more in my region (Pontos) and not the other way around. When I listen to your Byzantine music, even my mother bust out some karadeniz moves when she hears it. Which proves it to me.
I don’t think I ever got a greater compliment than a Karadeniz mom busting moves yo my music haha, thanks so much ❤
Pontos is a Hellenic state anyways mate. Check out its history.
well once upon a time what is Turkey now was Byzantium... and quite a number of Greeks lived there
@@lkrnpk Just Byzantium? Pontos comes from ancient classical age. You know...Mithridatic Wars with Rome.
@@lkrnpk we are still here mate 🤷♂
As a Greek I have to say this is absolutely amazing work Farya, you perfectly articulated thoughts I've held about our culture for a long time, but your final comment regarding what should be Greece's primary selling point to tourists ("The land between East and West"), being the exact thought I've had for some time, it was like you were inside my head at that moment.
Also your humour is always on point.
As a greek musician, this is an excellent video. I play rebetika and dimotika from all around Greece and play bouzouki, oud, accordion and sing, and I come across attitudes like this all the time. Keep up the good work
as a turk after watched this video I felt even more rich. I'm from antalya region one of the old greek settlement in asia minor and I'm aware that I have both greek and turkish heritage. I was always suprised after I learn how similar these cultures are and when I see people dening this I thought that was only my thought or something. thanks for the video to show some ignorants from both sides that they are not right and realty is far more different they what they have been told to us.
You know, every time I see a Turk commenting something like "in Turkey we do this and that" I always, always think how we do the exact same this and that in Greece too.
Whatever the this and that may be.
Never have I read such a comment without going "yeah".
Not once.
We're sardines from the same tin can. It's amazing. I love that about us, our both peoples, and it pains me that we have to live as we do now, with division, hatred and suspicion. It's wrong, just wrong.
We are brothers and sisters. We may have differences but we also have similarities and the people that bring up the only the differences and never the similarities only do it to manipulate the people's will. ❤ & ✌
I am from Iran. I am really glad to see your comment. I love both Turkeye and Greece.
@@yllejord as a turk with greek and balkan heritage i know this very well adelfos. especially western coast of turkey has more in common culturally with greece and balkans than it does with eastern turkey's culture. Since most of the people living here have greek heritage whether they know it or not. We have the same food, similar music, similar wedding traditions and such. and even some cultural aspects i recently learned were either borrowed from greek&balkan orthodoxy or was like that because my ancestors converted to islam to pay less tax lol. Like kin marriage is extremely frowned upon in western turkey but it's acceptable and eastern turkey. we even had sayings like "we wouldn't marry to even 7 generations of kin" which i later found out is a orthodox christianity rule. or respecting bread massively, picking it up and kissing it three times and putting it on your forhead if it dropped to ground. makes me real happy that with the world becoming more easy to access with internet or travel that we're realizing our similarities more and i hope it brings us closer overtime
@@NashQlaim Exactly as you said it. I was amazed to find out that many Turks are celebrating an Orthodox Saint on an island, if I remember correctly, near Istanbul. They were Muslims and yet they paid respect in that church by the thousands! Amazing sight!
When the modern European nation states formed over the course of the 19th Century, I think many found themselves in the position of having to “concoct” a unified cultural/ethnic identity out of what were really disparate micro-cultures. In France they accomplished this through suppression of local languages. At the beginning of the 19th Century, an Occitan speaker in Languedoc probably had more in common (ethnically, culturally) with a Catalan speaker on the Spanish side of the Pyrenees than with a Picard or Walloon. Now, a man from Montpellier and a woman from Lille are both equally “French.”
I think you’re right- a similar process occurs with the touristic identities countries develop for themselves and sell to the world. Eventually, this marketing identity can subsume authentic ones. Flamenco originated in Andalucía- specifically within the Romani cultural group at that, but it’s completely synonymous with Spain in general from an outside perspective now. Spanish artists from different parts of Spain (e.g., Rosalía from Barcelona) have also felt at home performing this genre as their own. I wonder to what extent they consider it “theirs.”
European support for Greek independence from the Ottoman Empire in the 19th Century was largely predicated on the notion that the Greeks were an inherently “Western” people (versus the Oriental Turks). I’m not sure to what extent Greek intellectuals shared that opinion (I’m sure they must have to some degree), but they would have had very little reason to fight against it. Ionian music is familiar to Western ears, it evokes similar pictures as Southern Italian music does (warm summers with limoncello)- it makes sense that this would be the easiest vessel to market a similar image in relation to Greece. It’s ready-made.
I see a lot of ethno-pop emerging in Eastern Europe that attempts to recapture traditional folkloric sounds. Some of this is probably fanciful and invented, too. Greece has laïká pop music, and from what I’ve observed it seems to draw from a wide pantheon of Hellenic genres. That might be the most authentic Greek music we can hope to listen to today, as it’s what the real Greek youth are producing and listening to.
Well I think you are pretty much spot on
The revolutionary era Greek intellectuals they pretty much rode the wave of western admiration of ancient Greece
A classic example is that they started to use ancient Athenian Greek ( each city state had her own grammar) because every influrencial person in Europe knew" that " Greek as" the ancient Greek ".
They eventually even made a modernized version of that dialect the official one know as" Katharevousa " literally" the purist "
Katharevousa remained the official language until 1986
With intellectuals fighting each other ( literally people died) over the legitimacy of using the everyday talking" dimotiki " in written form
Also note that the original constitution of Greece was quite progressive for 19th century standards acknowledging minorities ect
But eventually was scraped for a more authoritarian one after the death of" governor" ( head of state) kapodistrias and the rise of king Otto
Otto's viceroys was, that kind of Europeans that considered everything Modern Greek as coaptated by the ottomans
For example they ordered the medieval fortifications of acropolis to be demolished to Reveal the ancient ruins or the pretty much ordered new cities to be built over ancient ones
For the story their entitlement was their downfall eventually Otto was forced out of the country and his replacement George was forced to accept that the country will be a constitutional monarchy and his fist son name will be Constantine and Greek orthodox,, because you know the last byzantine emperor was a Constantine as well 😏
Regarding Laika being the most authentic modern Greek music it's imo 100% accurate. Laika is very interesting because even that genre was a more "refined" supposedly version of Rebetiko which was considered a low class music genre associated by 'higher class greeks" of that time with drug culture, prison culture and looked down upon despite it being the actual music of the people. Later on the most famous composers and singers of "Laiko" came out and said that none of that music would exist today without Rebetika.
Another favorite of mine, is Israeli appropriation of Greek music and instruments with Hebrew vocals then rebranded as "Mizrahi jewish music" , I.e the music of Jews from Arabic lands.
Obviously its done to differentiate Arab Jews from other Arabs, to concoct a unique sub-Jewish identity.
Intellectuals were the bedrock of national revivals in 19th century. In many cases like Serbia or Romania whole languages were 'doctored' and the shift was always to support Western ideology. In Romania big parts of slavic influence was removed in order to present the Romanians as Roman descendents. In Serbia, writing and language were changed to sound more Western Slavic from its medieval origin wich was more a Russian sounding language. And you can find similar examples all over Europe.
@@gideonros2705 The adoption of Roman script in Turkey and dropping Arabic script is also a good example.
It's tremendous how you've accurately distilled out what is the true heart of Greek culture. I've traveled to various parts of Europe looking for aspects of the supposed Greek influence on Europe that's been drilled into Greek children since the earliest years of school and found absolutely nothing. Yet, within just minutes of standing in as far East as the UAE (and Iran, evidently), there's an instant familiarity that's inescapable. The food, the music, the chants and calls to prayer, and bits of the language from the Middle East are far, far closer to true Greek culture than even Italy is. The thing that you didn't mention, though is the influence Alexander the Great must have had with his expansion eastward... there's even similarities between Greeks and Indians - food, the music, and even the way they shake their heads in acknowledgement, diagreement, or confusion is instantly reconizable and translatable. Even something as simple as pita and naan are clearly linked. What an excellent essay you've developed here while still honoring both your and the Greek cultures.
As an Irish-American I can relate. There's a traditional type of Irish singing called sean-nos that features a lot of vocal ornamentations, and because that's not a typical feature of Western European music some people have attempted to explain it by proposing some sort of ancient connection between the Middle East and Ireland. Completely ignoring the fact that sean-nos sounds nothing like Maqam or Byzantine chant or any other "Eastern" modes, it shows a kind of ignorance or refusal to believe that heavily ornamented music doesn't belong in Western Europe, or at least can't be native to it, because it has to follow standardized Western (Italian and German) music theory (or in Ireland's case, it has to sound like the music of English colonizers). So even the idea that all Western European music should fit a certain ideal is bullshit.
EDIT: Also, just about every landscape behind you in this video could easily pass for Lebanon or Turkey or Syria even. And people want to argue that Greece has nothing to do with these cultures, because they rely on narratives they have about both Greece and the Middle East.
I just want to second that last part; as a Lebanese person I kept looking at the background of all the shots and thinking about how similar the landscape is. So similar to the point where it felt like I've been to these places before, despite the fact that I've never travelled anywhere outside of Lebanon lol. It speaks volumes to how nonsensical it is to strip Greece of the eastern side of its identity.
The EU pushes the narrative that Greece is 100% Europe no questions asked. This is why young Greeks embrace a more western identity, but most older people still embrace the oriental identity.
Absolutely so much of the small churches I see in Greece remind me of Lebanese ones
Iam half Greek (sarakatsanoi Tribe) and half Spanish .
I First thougt that you are Greek. There are phenotypes like u since antiquitie in greece.
The Thing with the Ottomann Empire is, that It wasnt "turkic" as such. the Former inhabitants of the Eastern Roman Empire didnt dissapear. People have very monotholithic ideas about the past . Be It the Román Empire , The Persians. The Spanish Empire , the Ottomann Empire etc etc. Wich is in the cosmopolitic realitys and the imperial context absolutey ahistorical.
Often These ideas came from national ideas from the Last centurie. When nations rised and wanted to give Them selfe a ancient backup.
you do a great Work.
Enhorabuena 🎉
Ottomans had no ethnic identity, the dynasty ruled an Islamic Caliphate that oppressed everyone. They massacred and deported Turks on multiple occasions especially in their early history. I'm of a Shia background, Massacring Shia was an Ottoman pastime sport.
The idea of Ottomans being some sort of grand Turk yoke is a misconception created by Christian terminology. Christians called Ottomans Turks, and Turk became synonymous with Muslim, which is why balkan muslims who did not speak a word of Turkish got deported to Turkey.
Christians kept on calling any muslim a Turk, they effectively wished Turks into existence.
@@erenaygun9696 this
Great video!! As a Greek and a historian of ancient world, I must truly agree with this analysis..... The ancient Greeks were very close to Persians, Egyptians, Phoenicians and many more... History, and specially ancient history, must be seen as a whole, a big "lake" where people communicate and even fight each other.... Because even war is an exchange of culture and ways of life, back in this times.... GREAT FAN, KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!!
Genetically modern Greeks cluster with other Europeans. 2000 years ago, 3000 years ago they had a bit more steppe ancestry. But genetically they do not cluster with Iranians, or Egyptians, even in the ancient world.
Culturally and musically there is plenty of cross pollination if you will.
Precisely my friend
@@patrickbateman3146 genetically speaking its the exactly opposite,modern greeks have more steppe today than ancient greeks ,to give an example an ancient greek would be like a Sicilian while a mmodern greek is more like a tuscan, because genetically speaking northern invaders such as the slavs left the biggest genetic influence in Greece
@@kkoron7908 No, the Slavs didn't leave the biggest genetic influence in Greece. The Slavs invaded the Balkans and mixed with the local Thracian peoples. Those peoples got slavicised and later invaded Greece. But Greeks had the habit of mixing with Thracians since antiquity.
Ancient Greeks were genetically diverse since the Bronze Age. Minoans, Myceneans and peoples of the Balkans mixed together and became the Greeks. Genetic studies prove that.
Farya Faraji, you have a deep understanding of the Greek cultural,musical and social/historical background. As a Greek I totally agree with you. This is the subject of an extraordinary PHD thesis.
I’m so glad I found this video bc as a Serb/South Slav, we face these hurtful assumptions as well, and as if it were not enough that foreigners will tell us our folk music isn’t our own but *insert “oriental” nation here*, we face so much of it from the inside as well. It’s particularly bad in Croatia, where to justify the far-right ideology currently dominating it Croats will legitimately deny their own cultural legacies that are shared with the Serbs, and justify it by said legacies being “too oriental, Croatia is western”. In Serbia, the easiest way to spot a pseudointellectual is the visceral hatred for any form of art, but in particular music, that their ignorant minds perceive as “eastern”; I’ve even had people tell me that “our culture needs to be purged of those elements so we can become civilized”. It’s a vile form of autocolonial mentality, fascism in its purest, yet somehow presented here as liberal and opposed to some imagined Serb/South Slav boogeyman, defined by its supposed primitive nature and unsophisticated taste. But luckily, it seems younger people are mostly unbothered by this, and, at least in Serbia from my experience, taking a principled stand against it, waving their “orientalism” proudly in the faces of the faux-occidental (bc there’s nothing wrong with actual occidental cultural legacies which have influenced our countries in equal amounts) pseudo-aristocrats, which makes me very happy. No culture should ever be made to feel inferior, because no culture is. Thanks once again for this video Farya!
Absolutely true! The situation is terrible in Croatia, both in the diaspora and with my family who live there. Luckily I have found many Serb, Bosniak, Bulgarian and North Macedonian friends to compare notes with and it turns out we all had pretty much the same culture growing up so we could compare notes and find the truth. My own family banned me from playing music there that sounded too eastern, mostly out of fear it would insult people who lived through the wars in the 90s, but that's another sad story. I know a lot of Croats who secretly love Turbofolk (not the really political stuff, but the fun kind), although they would never admit it in openly. It is particularly tragic how much Romani and Jewish influences have been completely ignored, suppressed even to this day.
I wish for all the countries of the Balkan peninsula to do this, find the friends across their borders and do as you did. It shows that the celebration of differences and commonalities is a force for good.
@@posavka Ok, lets cry on internet that little croats(ex serbs) call us eastern and not western europeans... thats a really "serb thing" to do 🙄
We have this in Poland too sadly.
Many Poles try to suck up to the West by pretending to not be like other Slavs and by pretending that they're "western". Any cultural things in Poland that remind them too much of other Slavic countries' traditions (which is like 99% of Polish culture, especially rural) is seen as uncivilised and that it should be purged.
If someone legitimately believes that Poland is culturally closer to Germany than to Ukraine or Belarus, then they need a lobotomy.
One of my most favorite quotes in regards to greek music comes from an opinion peace in a greek newspaper in the early 20th century. "Some prefer the western sounds and some the eastern sound, and both are ready to die on this hill. But most of the populous hears both. Because they like both"
I am paraphrasing, of course, but it is indicative of the power of good music. As someone who plays and studies rebetiko and modern greek music, I can't just ignore regional similarities and differences.
The reason I’m drawn myself to always covering Greek music is the marriage of Western harmony and Eastern modality. The laouto I bought last year is still my most favoured posession; I love the sound of hyper microtonal/modal violin over some classic power chords haha
Well, I feel like you speak greek good enough in order to understand a documentary series about how Rebetiko was created. It's called Ονειρου Ελλας. It goes through modern history and the cultural zeitgeist of the time that formed it. It also has a big band playing music. There's a Playlist on TH-cam, I think
Glad you found an instrument that can provide and support a good mix of both east and west. Have fun with it.
@@zeldafan9851I’ll check it out, thanks alot!
One of the best videos I’ve ever seen I play bouzouki, sazi, and oud and I could never give any of them up! Ζήτω η Ελλάδα .
I really love this comment because I have just been called “ignorant of Greek music and making crazy claims,” by some Greeks claiming that oud and sazi never existed in Greek music, and that I’m making it up. I guess you and I are both crazy then
@@faryafaraji I’d rather be crazy than to deny they gigachadness of saz bro. Those Greeks know they love it too but they’re so scared of anything remotely “Turkish” 😢
@@faryafarajiarya I thought Saz and Bouzouki was brought by Anatolian Greeks into Greece. In ancient times there were just Panduras no Saz, Oud or Bouzouki and nothing more. The Saz itself is just a modified medieval Turcoman Dutar/Kopuz with influences of Anatolian Byzantine panduras a old prototype was the „Çoğur Sazı”.
Well, this is pretty much like hearing "O sole mio" (a traditional Neapolitan song) in Venice (!) - Tourists will not notice the cognitive dissonance: for them, that's just Italy; cause, for tourists, Italy is the same thing as Sicily, which is the same thing as Naples.
The worst part arguably being the linguistic dissonance, Neapolitan not being the same language as Venetian, which are both different Romance languages from Italian
@@faryafaraji thanks agha, you know it!
@@faryafaraji I am so grateful for this channel and I just found it
Yeah, as a a Greek-Canadian who has lived in Greece for thirty years, I'd like to point out that emmigrant communities are far more conservative than local communities. I wondered where you were hearing this stuff about Greeks rejecting the 'oriental' sounds of their music until you mentioned Greeks in Canada!
I can kind of relate as a Polish person, where we are in a kind of unique situation in Central Europe, where Westerners call us too Eastern to be Western, and Easterners call us too Western. Because of us being on the border between East and West we grew our own unique mixed culture but whenever we try to be ourselves, one or the other side tries to pull us with them.
I prefer being called eastern
@@TrajGreekFire I prefer Central, it's unique and different than most of Europe.
@@SpartanLeonidas1821 God bless Greece! I presume you're Greek.
@@SpartanLeonidas1821 Likewise my friend, the Greeks have suffered long under occupation but resisted and regained their freedom in the end! Your history and culture is fascinating!
@@szymonbaranowski8184 Co?
You can find the same style in Romania (I am Romanian) in Bulgaria, Serbia etc. In my country we call it muzica lautareasca, a "lautar" it translates as bard like in the medieval bard.
It's like that with Spanish music too: everyone thinks flamenco, though flamenco is a specifically Andalusian Roma musical tradition. Spain's different regions have very old, very rich musical traditions as well, each one distinct.
I study anthropology and ethnomusicology with a focus on the Balkans, so I’ve known for a long time that actual Greek folk music doesn’t all sound like Sirtaki, so the whole time watching this video I honestly was having a hard time believing people could actually say things as dumb as the stuff you quoted.
I sent this video to my parents along with a couple examples of Greek and other Balkan music because I thought it was cool, but I guess my dad didn’t have time to watch your video and only listened to the songs because he responded:
“Do think the balkans and Greece were influenced by Turks? Suleiman built the Mostar bridge. Maybe music made it there, too?”
I have now disowned my father
He said clearly how Greek music influenced Arab and then Turkish music
I am French and I discovered the real Greek music with your productions. Even today, many of our history books depicts ancient greece as the core of the western civlisation and at school, we still learn the opposition between the two opposite of "Persia" and Hellenistic completely ignoring the complexity of cultures and the long relationship between greek and other anatolian and eastern culture. We depicts Roman Empire as the heirs of Greek and so, that our French culture came from Greek, and I would like to say that these opinions are also hiding the german, scandinavian and celtic (and even arabic and steppic) influences of the Europeans culture creating the myth of the Greek descent.
The Greek descent is not a myth honey. Your languages including Latin is almost fully Greek. Even Scandinavians share an exquisite amount of Greek origin words and in many cases even the same exact pronounciation. Greece is the core of Europe in most European things but Greece is also highly interconnected with her oriental neighbors and co-cultures.
@@SpartanLeonidas1821 I do not believe in the 'Indo-European' theory. It is not a serious theory. Latin is not 'close' to Greek. Latin IS Greek at least for its majority. The founding father of the Latin language literally took most Greek words to shape Latin. This is why all so called "Latin" languages have such an astounding amount of pure Greek words in them.
@@SpartanLeonidas1821For example the word "metric" which you just used in your previous text is Greek, the Latins borrowed it from the Greeks, after the French borrowed it from the Latin/Romans, after the Normans borrowed it from French and lastly the English borrowed from the Normans. 😅
@@noqueq9003 The thing is, that aspect is very well known, but the fact that ancient Greece was part of the Near East and that the king Cyrus the Great
t, who was Median/Persian was one of the first to create human rights, a state respecting other religions, and other things that are never mentioned, as an example in Sweden, history books when they speak about Alexander the Great lie and say that he was the first to create such a rule, even though he just copied Cyrus .
Greece is actually the core of western civioisation, but is is MUCH more than that. It has a huge history and it never belonged fully to the east nor to the west. In fact, majority of the time we looked towards the East to find trading partners, enemies, allies, other Greeks and other civilisations there, because befire th Roman Empire, we though of the rest of Europe as uncivilised (and rightfully so, i think)
the Greeks were always a nation with one foot in the West and the other in the East due to the geographical expansion of several Greek communities to all directions. Greece is a small country but every Greek region, inside or outside the modern Greek borders has its own dances and music.
Greece is a small country , today. Hellenism at one point and time occupied most of Eastern Med as well as Anatolia, North Africa/Middle East and even reached as far as India.
I remember studying how the musicians in Alexander's armies sat down with the Indian musicians after the fighting and realized that they were using the same physics to develop their music theory. So much wonderful music in the world - and the richness of Greek music styles and scales is indeed varied and wonderful.
Thanks for this fascinating documentary. As an Australian of Greek descent I always wondered about the development of Greek music. The punchline that the reason 'real' Greek music sounds oriental is that it intrinsically is oriental makes perfect sense.
You know when british people coined the term "middle east" they actually meant Ottoman regions which included both eastern Mediterranean countries but also Balkan southeast european region.
Once those regions were "liberated" from the "oriental despots", they've suddenly become part of "real" Europe.
Thank you so much for making the content you do. It makes me feel seen, especially this video, even though I’m Pontic Greek so I’m from the easternmost outlying subgroup of Greeks, this video still makes me feel seen more than any other media I’ve consumed.
Man, Pontic Greeks are both the most overlooked and underrated Greeks out there, much love to you guys
@@faryafaraji Thanks man!
@@Unknown00432 Η γενετική δεν έχει καμία σχέση με την κουλτούρα. Δεν υπάρχει "ελληνικό DNA"
There are still Pontic Greeks? I thought all of you must've been Turkified after so many centuries
@DonCossackRussian there certainly were plenty of greek colonies in pontus. Even ancient philosopher diogenis was pontic
As a Bulgarian from the southern part of the country which is more Greek-related I've always felt the same way about this question. Bulgarian culture as a whole is "European" but it's not "western" like France or England, and this is especially reflected in our music which can also tend to sound extremely "eastern" and "exotic" to westerners, especially because we use instruments native to the lands we inhabit, most of which are formerly Thracian and Hellenic. What people seem to not understand about the Balkans and to an extent southern Italy and Iberia (Spain), is that these are the birthplaces of the concept of "Europe" and "European", these are lands whereupon the *most* ancient European cultures were developed. The access to Asia via Anatolia for Semitic and Indian tribes and to north Africa with tribes like the Berbers and Egyptians via the Mediterranean were crucial to developing the European identity. Europe was not the western concept that it is today (which is only a recent phenomenon developed by Germanic and Celtic cultures), it's the sum of the cultures and civilisations which surrounded it that made it great.
This Iranian man is much more proud of Greece and informed about Greece than your average city dwelling modern westernized Greek. I was not expecting this at all.
Dude your accent in Greek is excellent. Lol'ed at the kokoretsi comment. Hope you visit us again soon.
As a Turk from Antalya, I'm happy to have inherited such a rich Greek cultural residues. My grandmother's side was from Crete, i always wanted to visit there. I think it would be the BEST if Türkiye and Greece came together as brothers and sisters of the same land and culture, celebrating our similarities as well as our differences. Let bygones be bygones and finally hug it out like family who hadn't seen each other for a long time with a gorgeous Aegean sunset in the background and drinking raki or uzo, listening to "our" music.
As a greek myself I absolutely agree.
It would be great until some political shithead decides "we're brothers therefore you must join my empire or at least become a satellite" like Soviets and later Russians have done.
(not that Ottoman Turkey and Imperial Russia didn't pull that off in slightly different ways either, both poached each others' taxpayers and stirred the pot under this pretense, and in 1970s Turkish offer to issue citizenships to both bulgarian turks and muslim bulgarians led the communist regime to counterattack targeting their own population as communists do)
Χαίρομαι που το ακούω, να σαι καλά αδερφέ
I don't think the people of Greece and Turkey have any problem with each other, it's all about lines on the map, and how much politicians gain from them.
Props for teleporting all around Greece during the video. I knew you were a wizard.
Greeks maintained their language, religion and traditions under Turkish rule. So why do people think that Greeks would have allowed their musical traditions be erased?
Right? Some people want to act like Greeks had no culture, food, music etc and then the Ottomans came and gave them everything. Or that the people where so fickle that they just dropped their culture and adopted their conquerors. 😂
It's such a braindead argument it's hilarious
As a greek, I did know that dances like the known Syrtaki or the typical Ionian music were referred as ,,Greek''. I always thought music in Greece that sounded eastern like, was influenced by the Ottomans so, that we greeks ''had'' to accept the influence of the ottomans. Yet, this video shows me the opposite! Great video, very very educational! Thank you!
It's quite easy when you look at the origins of the instruments, a lot of microtonal instruments come from regions that were at the time of invention were under the Greek culture, so it is native there. The issue is more that microtonal instruments also existed all over Europe, but they were simply put on the wayside by at the time modern composers and almost completely wiped away after the adoption of the 12 tone intervals. They werent used in a same manner like in the east, but they were there and music was made on them. I blame the church :D
nope, for music it is kinda the otherwise, Turks used to sing steppe music (fast paced, with Dombra or Kopuz instruments) after we got here we got assimilated and the thing we call "Turkish music" is heavily influenced by people living in there (which includes Anatolians who lived with Greek culture for some time)
Thank you for this very interesting video. I'm from Catalonia and we have a similar situation when it comes to tourism. Tourists come to hear flamenco (music from Andalusia, VERY different music to ours) and people here even sell souvenirs of things that have nothing to do with our culture (like sevillana dancers or bullfighters, when bullfighting is illegal in Catalonia because it's animal torture). I see tourists' children walk around dressed in sevillana dresses and for some reason some years ago it was super popular for tourists to buy Mexican hats as a souvenir from Barcelona.
Law of supply and demand. If there is demand there will be supply. Give the tourists what they want. I've seen it in downtown Athens where tourists buy overpriced junk. Of course when I travel abroad I also buy the overpriced touristy junk. I paid 100 Euros in a German airport for a beer stein because it had a lid
Finally someone talks about this, im of greek and spanish descent, and i love traditional greek music, its unfortunate people associate it with arabic when greek is a mostly orthodox country.
I don´t even though I am an American.
Because they don’t realize the extent that Hollywood has brainwashed them to think the Greeks are stereotypically “western” in every way, it shocks them when finding out that Greek culture was and is more “Eastern” than “western” since the Bronze Age into the modern day.
Jjjjj en serio? yo también soy "Greco-Hispano" 😂🎉
@@unomasdelsurNice 🇬🇷🇪🇸
@@OrthoKarter 🇪🇦🇬🇷
Such a great video, finally someone talked about this 200-year old misconception that does not intend to go away, at least in the near future. Thank you Farya for shedding light on this subject!
I want to point out some things, mainly details but also some general facts.
I apologize, in advance, for my bad English.
1- Ionian music, although at its core is heavily influenced by the Venetians, to the point that you may not find differences in the equivalent Italian songs, except from the language of course, still there is music in specific villages in all of the Ionian islands, especially Lefkada, but also Kerkyra(Corfu), Zakynthos etc. where the music is much more similar to mainland Greek music. Mainly because, as you said, there is no magical wall anywhere, especially regarding music, and so in places where they are literally some kms away from mainland Greece, the music is pretty much the same.
2 - What you say about Philhellenes is very very true, especially on the political aspect of things. However, I have to say that many of the Philhellenes do not fit this category of arrogant outsiders, since many of them came, fought, and died with the Greeks during the Greek revolution and adopted many (actual) traditional Greek characteristics, like clothing, and music (there are even instances where some of them learned to play the tambouras and the sheperd flute.
3 - The ignorance that is displayed in the sentence 'Oh, its sounds oriental, therefore it's Ottoman influence' is indescribable. And that is also true for ''Greeks should abandon 'Ottoman' habits''. However, on the social side, it is true that some of the 'bad habits' of Greeks are a remnant of that period. I'm specifically reffering to tax evasion, resistance to authority, and ρουφιανος (the one who cooperated with the Ottoman authorities). The Greeks adopted these traits mainly because they were second class citizens, as they belonged in the Christian millets and were burdened with huge taxes, punishments, even forceful conversion in some cases. But the thing is that these traits have (kind of kept on) even today but are now against the current Greek state or government. I think this is what people usually mean when they talk about 'Ottoman' bad habits.
4 - It is true that the Metaxas regime was severely strict against many things. However, there was no specific attack on the broad traditional Greek music, although it did ban the 'Amanedes' due to them being 'too Turkish''. Metaxas wanted to crush down the Rebetiko culture, where many would gather in tavernas or tekedes and they would consume marijuana and other kinds of drugs like cocaine etc. And so began the attacks on those places, where instruments, especially the Bouzouki was targeted because it was associated with that specific culture, the Kanonaki (Qanun) and the Oud happened to be collateral damage. There was no attack against them in the countryside and where they were traditionally played. They were still being used by all the traditional music players. Although the regime later allowed the Bouzouki to be played, they decided to ''purge'' the ''bad stuff'' from this kind of music, through censorship of the lyrics in every single song.
5 - The Greeks who told you that actual Greek music is only connected to ''European'' music and that it has nothing to do with the East are uneducated and do not know a single thing about Greek traditional music. Many of these, are people who have only studied Classical music, and look down on anything that is actually traditional Greek, wanting to impose the western Classical themes in Greek music. Thankfully, there are less and less of these types of opinions because of the rise and spread of excellent Music schools all over Greece which teach three different types of music theory. Traditional Music, Byzantine Church music and Classical music. So that the students will have an all-around knowledge. There are also thousands of organizations all around Greece that help preserve the traditional music of every little region. Often, these organizations will cooperate with these schools for concerts and festivals. I can also talk about the many charismatic figures that have brought attention to the Traditional Greek music like Simon Karras, Domna Samiou but this will take a very long time.
6- You are right about the dissapearance of the 'Saz' or the Tambouras as we call it in Greece. It was so forgotten here that they had modern Greek musicians had to go to Turkey to study its construction. But, thankfully, we have found tambourades from the 19th century, and have reconstructed them. Slowly, but surely, the Tambouras is making a comeback. However, the Oud and the Kanonaki (Qanun) were never abandoned, they were and are still widely played, especially in the traditional music of the islands.
7- The sirtaki dance was actually created for the purposes of the movie 'Zorba', it is derived from the Syrtos, which is a traditional dance from all over Greece. (I am talking about the movements of the dance, not the melody, the music was an original composition by Mikis Theodorakis, who did not traditional music theory in any of his compositions, which is why he became so popular abroad, as the 'main composer' of modern Greek music, I actually like Mikis Theodorakis, but his music is not traditional in any sense)
8- What you hear in tourist places is not necessarily Ionian music. It could also be a form of 'laika' music. Which is the continuation of the rebetiko but it slowly abandoned the traditional modes, the maqams, the melismata, where it has now reached a point that it is basically only played in even temperament, and only in major and minor modes. However the early laika were a really interesting mix between the rebetiko and classical music scales or modes.
P.S. 1 : I can't stand the Zorba song and the Sirtaki, it is even more stereotypical than the Tarantella is for the Italians
P.S. 2 : You get +100 points for the Anduril, Herrugrim and Legolas' swords on the wall
Thanks for the in depth response, I love making those videos especially for the intelligent conversations that arise in the comment section!
Regarding point 6, I agree that I should have distinguished the oud and kanonaki from the sazi; the latter almost disappeared, but the former didn’t have it that bad. That said, I feel like the oud and kanonaki did experience some slight erasure since I regularly get comments from some Greeks (in this comment section too) telling me I’m ignorant about Greek music and making crazy claims, because the oud and kanonaki have never existed in Greece 😂. I do feel like newer instruments like the tzouras, bouzouki and laouto really took over at the expense of oud and kanonaki in the 1900’s, but I’d like to hear your thoughts on this.
As for point 9; that’s a super interesting observation I hadn’t considered. Thinking about it, there is indeed alot of Ionian-like music, but also what you describe as “westernised” laïko. I’ll add that addendum in the pinned comment with your permission!
@@faryafaraji I'm glad that you found my comment helpful!
Well to be honest, the Greeks that tell you that the Oud and Kanonaki are completely new to Greek music are completely ignorant. I remember from a very young age, watching one of the most famous channels in Greek tv called ERT, where it showed traditional Greek groups from different regions. Nearly all of them had an oud and a kanonaki player in their composition. Even if you haven't been in a Greek village or in a traditional Greek festival you could hear the oud and the kanonaki in your TV all the time.
Therefore, I assume that the people who say those things are either diaspora Greeks who often reinforce the ideas that you mentioned in the video or Greeks who have never in their life listened to traditional music.
The Oud is traditionally played mostly in Thrace, Macedonia, most of the Aegean islands and also by the Greeks who came from Asia Minor. The Kanonaki is traditionally played mostly in the Aegean islands but it is also present in Central Greece, the Peloponesse and parts of Macedonia. You may be correct about the diminishing popularity, but in those specific regions, they have never ceased to be played. Regarding the Laouto, it is as traditional as the Oud and the Kanonaki. There have been laoutos found in Greece that are over 250 years old and the current form of Laouto probably dates back to late Byzantine times. In my regions, Thessaly and Epirus, it always had a widespread use, though mostly as an accompaniment instrument to the violin, the clarinet or the traditional sheperd flute. And this is about the mainland Laouto, the Cretan Laouto has a whole different history. However it is true that the Laouto has spread in a wider region over the years, mainly replacing the Tambouras, where it was once played.
In regards to the Bouzouki, the Tzouras and the Baglamas, these instruments are never used for traditional music, since they are not traditional themselves, they are variations, created for the Rebetiko music first and the Laika later. So they did not replace the traditional instruments in traditional music but they did replace their popularity, sort to speak.
Regarding the pinned comment, yes of course, you can use anything you want!
@@balkanmountains2-3131 reading your comment, I suddenly remembered watching a documentary about the santouri on ERT when I was young. Early '80s or something. It featured the "last remaining santouri players", two elderly gentlemen.
I have no way of knowing if they were indeed the last two, but I'm really happy that there are a lot of santouri players now, and a lot of them are young too.
@@balkanmountains2-3131but let's be honest most people don't watch EPT especially younger people who also are not that familiar with music instruments that are not being often used in modern music 😉
Hey as a Cretan Lyra player from Chania in Crete, I need to correct point number 7. Syrtos is not a traditional dance from all over Greece. It is a Cretan dance, of Cretan origin, which originates from western Crete. Syrtos encompasses about 85% percent of a Lyra players’ repertoire so I felt compelled to correct this assumption. Cretan music and dance does get played in other parts of Greece, but Syrtos is not a general traditional Greek dance that originates from nowhere specifically. Syrtos is one of 5 basic Cretan dances that originate from Crete specifically (along with Siganos/Kontylies, Pentozalis, Kastrinos/Maleviziotis, and sousta. By comparison, inCrete we also have Kalamatianos and Balos, but they do not originate from Crete.
43:53 I can’t thank you enough for including this! There is evidence of these dances being thousands of years old and we even have descriptions from Xenophon and Plato, yet Turkish people try to claim them as theirs all the time. You don’t know how many times I’ve seen comments like “the Greeks have nothing of their own, they always steal from others”, referring to things that have been undoubtedly Greek since the ancient times AND the people claiming them didn’t even live in this area until centuries later. The Turks call it “horon” and anyone who knows even the most basic level of Greek will understand how hilarious this is.
I wish there was a similar video essay about dancing, I would make one but I am Greek so people will call me biased. I am tired of seeing idiots calling us thieves and liars while being completely uneducated on cultural heritage.
I am Greek and I don't mind if I am western or Eastern or both of them.
I am proud of my culture and I feel there is not any reason for every one to feel guilty if his culture is non western or totally western. That is the Greek culture, a culture with great heritage. I am OK with that.
Personally I feel closer to southern european countries (Portugal, Spain, France, Italy, and our good friends in Serbia and Armenia, and at the same distance from Arab and germanic countries.
I am ok with that.
What a cathartic video! Thank you so much for taking such a big task educating people on this topic. I study at conservatoire in England, but I’m from Chania in Crete and I also play the Cretan lyra so I have both Western and Eastern music knowledge and practices. I feel so frustrated when someone asks me about Cretan music because I always have to go on a disclaimer spiel explaining why it sounds the way it does. One time, I took part in a folk workshop on jamming, and they asked if anyone doesnt know how to play in a key. I had to explain that though I know Western tonality (I write orchestral film music at uni), I am not used to implementing this theory into my Lyra playing. They respected it but didn’t understand, and I didn’t want to sit there and explain what makams are and what theory I actually implemented in my Lyra playing. I always have to explain that Greece is culturally Eastern on its own right, that there are many different types of Greek music etc. and you covered absolutely everything in this video. I will just send this to people from now on.
I am glad you made it a point that Greek music is oriental/Eastern in and of itself. An international student from China heard Cretan music and called it Arab music, which is really frustrating. Someone once asked me where we (Cretans) got the Lyra from, and though when I talk about Greek history and music I make a point to say that the bouzouki came from Turkish refugees due to the population exchange, the Lyra is genuinely ours. We even have records of Ibn Khurradadhbih speaking to Al Mutamid where the cretan lyra is described as “similar to the arab rebab”, meaning it does not originate from it like some people theorise. The speculations that our music is actually originally foreign to us is really invalidating and frustrating, so I personally really appreciate your video.
I wanted to make a small point about Metaxas and his effect on Greek folk music. I know you didn’t say this, but it is cool to know that Metaxas did not affect the Cretan music tradition as he focused on attacking the urban hasis culture associated with rebetiko music. This is a nice point of comparison with Cretan music and other types of Greek folk, because whilst other traditions where restricted, Crete continued to produce music with a personalised touch (some traditions use repeat old songs without adding anything to it) within that traditional style/framework.
I love your point about tourist-bite versions of Greek folk music. Whenever I talk about Cretan music to non-Greeks, I explain that is one of the many subcategories of Greek music, and that music in Crete sounds different to music up north for example (think Thracian sound). But a die-hard tourist can visit Crete 10 times and have not heard of our music. Last summer I went to the ‘Where Crete meets Pontos’ concert in Chania. It was a fusion concert mixing Cretan music and dance and Pontic music and dance with Mattheos Tsahouridis. The amphitheater was full in the middle of busy August, and yet it was an exclusively Greek audience. I don’t think we do it maliciously, but through advertising only on Greek newspapers and signs around town, we do, in some way, keep Cretan music to ourselves. I think that Cretans being ‘mountain people’ contributes to that, too, since tourists tend to stick to specific areas and won’t travel with a car up a mountain to partake in the local honey festival that is not advertised to them. The fact that we indulge in live traditional music within our community functions (weddings, festivals, baptisms, dance recitals etc) furthers this divide.
I also love your point about bagpipes. I study film music and my teachers restrict my use of bagpipes in my re-scores because we need to stick to the sound that general audiences know. I would argue that we use bagpipes in Crete (askomantoura), but no, anytime I use them it sounds Scottish. In Eastern Crete, the Lyra players will even imitate the askomantoura in their ways of decorating and playing melodies! They do this when they play Kontylies. Cool fact.
Thanks again! I really appreciate it.
Damn that sounds so frustrating to deal with! As an Arab I always knew that modern Greek music is truly Greek and truly ancient. The similarity has to do with the fact that so many ancient civilizations were in close proximity to each other. In that spirit, the oriental nature of Greek culture is just a testament to its authenticity and its deep roots.
It's not 'Eastern' it's "Oikumene"!!!
Makes way more sense and it's accurate. At least I think so. Cheers Legend and once again Congrats on the 100K!!!!
I like your part on « west and east being overlapping circles rather than separate boxes », but I would go even further in saying that there are more variations than west and east overlapping, with more circles that could feature in your diagram, like protestant vs catholic vs orthodox, Germanic vs Latin vs Slavic, Nordic vs Mediterranean, etc.
As a French person with roots in the Alps and the Mediterranean I felt much closer with an important part of the Greek culture, especially the Cretan one, than I ever felt while in contact with Anglo-Saxon or Nordic cultures.
So when you said that France would be a good example of an extremely western culture, this did not really take into account the fact that, for example, people living along the Mediterranean sea have a way of life and set of values that are extremely close to the ones of people living in North Africa, despite the difference in religion.
I believe that the discussion on what the west and east are need to be nuanced even further.
Definitely, I grew up in Montpellier as a child so I totally agree. (D’accord avec la Crète, beaucoup d’éléments me rendent énormément nostalgiques de la Côte d’Azur!) There’s an endless amount of overlapping diagrams overlapping others. The world is so much more complicated than we make it appear
@@faryafaraji Oh I didn’t know you grew up in France … Well I guess I need to watch more of your videos ! But yeah, dans les alpes françaises où j’ai grandi, je retrouve beaucoup d’éléments familiers avec la crête, notamment dans le pastoralisme et la culture montagnarde en général, sans oublier les coutumes et l’esprit de clan que l’on retrouve aussi en Corse, Sardaigne, dans les Pyrénées… As for the musical traditions however, there aren’t much similarities. I guess that’s where other overlapping circles come into action.
In any case, i really enjoy your content so keep up the good work !
As a greek who has lived outside of greece in western europe for most of his life this video really hits home all of the points I have to repeat to western europeans about greece and greek culture. Thanks for understanding us :)
Hello, Mr. Faraji! I've been a fan for something like half a year, since I found and fell in love with your rendition of the Albanian folk song "Jarnana"!
I had a few comments!
First, as ever, I love the video. All of your silly little impressions, whether of ancient or medieval, revered scholars, or of Some Guy you had a conversation with a month ago and couldn't get his dumb comment out of your head, are always hilarious!
You're always well-informed about the things you speak of, and as someone who loves listening to history podcasts and peruse wikipedia pages, it's always wonderful to put a cultural face to the cold stories of empire and conquest, of Byzantine (literally and figuratively) politics.
I'm a gamer who likes listening to soundtracks that sound "eastern" to my American ears. Things like Runescape's Arabic tracks, Homeworld's soundtracks, things like that. One of the reasons I enjoy this channel so much is that you've parsed out many times and incredible detail what really makes Eastern music, Eastern! And where exactly the east/west split lies, musically.
One last thing before I go: I've noticed that you have two modes when trying to educate: a Myth Dispelling mode where you try to debunk in depth misconceptions about music, music history, culture and the like. And on the other hand, Educational mode, where you work hard to introduce ideas, history, and musical methods in a painstakingly slow to ensure a minimum number of misunderstandings. Of the two, I feel that the latter mode is the most helpful and educational, while the former makes for good laughs. Especially with your all too real impressions.
Anyways, thanks for all of your hard work. I hope you have a wonderful day!
P.s., I sent your Organum video to a French Canadian girl I know, and she said she giggled at your impression of the historical figure whose name I forgot. Also, that you're super hot
Oh I forgot to add! One thing I loved hearing about was the conversations you had with other Iranian folks about whether you're "Iranian" or "Persian". As someone who only speaks English and a bit of Spanish so far, I've always wondered about the kinds of questions and conversations people from other cultures have of themselves. Even if it's just a brief aside, I loved being able to hear about it!
I really appreciate this video, so many of your points hit home for me. My family's from all across the Balkans and Turkey, from where east and west meet, and perceptions of a stark divide really do crumble when held up to the barest scrutiny. It's a narrative that pointedly flattens the realities and complexities of our cultures and histories, and it's wild to see the misconceptions that people hold so stubbornly and insistently, whether it's about phenotypes, music, history, whatever. The 'magic wall' section of the video reminded me of when I was seeing comments about the Netflix show Rise of Empires: Ottoman demanding to know why the Turkish actor playing Mehmed II looked 'whiter' and 'less Turkish' than the Romanian actor playing Vlad Dracula. There is just no understanding of the diversity of our regions, lol.
I'm Polish and while Polish traditional and folk culture is predominantly Slavic and European, if you look at the traditional garments of the (male) nobility, it's very, VERY clearly inspired by the Ottoman fashions. We technically fought a lot with each other, but there was also clearly a lot of trade and cultural exchange between our countries (Polish nobility even liked to claim that they're descended from the Sarmatians, ie. an Iranian people, even though that is a rather fanciful notion, not borne out by any evidence and seemingly based on the nobility's desire to distinguish themselves even more from their serfs. Bottom line is, a connection to "the East" seems to be something they were proud of)
Fashion of the burghers/city-dwellers/mieszczaństwo from the early 1800s was also having clear Turkish influences
Even few common Polish words like "torba" (bag) are of Turkish origin.
And of course very widespread usage of sabre/szabla more than rapier is something rather clearly adapted from the Turks.
This was so excellent. Thank you so much for the explanation.
As a UK born Sri Lankan, (now living in Australia), I spent many happy months and years living in Greece.
The music of the Pelepones often brought me to tears because a certain familiar "Eastern" sound and of course the Ionian Islands music led me to Mikis Theodorakis and 'Tou stroma sou' ,a song that constantly inspires me.
Hope to start learning the bazouki soon and delving hands on the wonderful worlds of Greek music styles. Love your work so much 😊
In my first geography lesson I was taught that Europe and Asia were separate continents. Now we learn that Eurasia is a huge continent with many regions....
Some who speak so glowingly of Western civilization regard their own White Anglo Saxon Protestantism as the pinnacle of said civilization. Even Roman Catholics make them nervous.
Thank you for the thought provoking presentation. With beautiful images and music. ..
you summed it up when you said in one of your last sentences that in this place the People can feel like Italians as well as Persians. Very good work.. keep it up.
As a Greek musician-composer-producer I commend you. Could not have said it better myself
Im Spanish and we also get this. To be honest I think it’s just the Mediterranean influence, all over the Mediterranean plenty of countries have this kind of style of music, Mediterranean=trading=sharing cultures=it spreads= everyone in the Mediterranean can relate to this 😂
Great video! You just said what I've been saying for years! My only complaint would be that you didn't do justice to the bouzouki - sure, it's the primary touristy Greek instrument, but it has been used for actual Greek music from Smyrna for over a hundred years now, and of course it's tightly tied to the rebetiko/mangas subculture, which although more of a recent development, still deserves to be mentioned as real, non-touristy Greek music.
That’s a very fair criticism! I think I was so focused on the fact that the bouzouki overshadowed all other Greek instruments (in worldwide perception) that I didn’t adress its very real quality as a traditional instrument.
Much like Ionian music, it is a real, authentic part of Greek culture, it’s only the overblowing of them into all of Greek culture that is inauthentic
Not only is this one of the most accurate, objective and knowledgeable videos about Greece I have ever watched but I also love how you randomly pop up in some new gorgeous scenery every few minutes. Great work!
I rarely comment on videos but you have shattered my shallow understanding of my idea of what Greece is culturally. Your thoughtful explanations and research make this whole video such a gem.
I came here from the Middle Eastern orientalistusic video, another banger in the light of the recent popularity of films such as Dune.
Thank you for this video. I have SO much to say about it but it would honestly take too long to comment all my thoughts and feelings. But as a diasporic Greek, this felt very validating. I have always felt deeply connected to Middle Eastern/North African cultures, they've always felt familiar to me. And have always been particularly attached to the more 'oriental' (I'm not a fan of the word) side of Greek culture. People speak of 'Ottoman corruption', but it's really always been Western corruption. And as you say, geographically speaking it makes sense to see Greece at a crossroads between East and West! We quite literally are.
I didn't expect that argument that Phrygia and Japan are both in Asia... wow.
Whoever said that, please donate your brain to science.
The premise of your idea is flawed…
It implies someone who’d make this argument has a brain
@@faryafaraji this person at least has functional motor cortex. Otherwise writing or speaking would be mechanically impossible.
Indeed the presence of other parts of the brain are a matter of debate
I don't endorse Metaxas' decision to ban certain instruments but I can see his reasoning. 1. Relations with the Turks had hit rock bottom after Greece's unsuccessful Asia Minor campaign and the refugee crisis that followed so he wanted to distance the country from Turkey as much as possible and 2. rembetiko music was counter-cultural, often talking about drugs, crime and sex. Metaxas based his government on Mussolini's Italy (ironic since they became bitter enemies later) so this music went against the values the state promoted. As I said in the beginning, recognizing the reasoning behind a decision isn't the same as endorsing it but offering some extra cultural context behind it is important. Great video by the way. It appears academic opinions on Greek music have been shifting for some time now which is a good thing although I doubt Zorba is going away any time soon. It has become so ingrained with the image people have of Greece that Greeks themselves don't want it to die. It doesn't hurt that it's a nice upbeat track that's easy to dance to.
Indeed, we can recognise the cultural damage of it, but in an era where even a literal genocide against Greeks had occured only decades prior at the hands of Turkey, the perception of the political necessity can be at least sympathised with
@@faryafarajiit was a hard period people that originally couldn't get Greek documents like Armenian or circarsian refugees often felt uneasy for their ottoman papers, their was stories of people actually attempting Suicide for that reason... Also it wasn't just metaxas it was also his political rival Venizelos who had similar opinions.. interesting enough Turkey took a pro Greek stance of course within the limitations of neutrality in the war that followed
Also I don't know if you are familiar with the believe that if you are a Greek musician and want to be successful you have to go to salonika?
That's an other thing coming from metaxas - ww2 era
During the crack downs most now legendary musicians found refuge at salonika
...
Because the chief of police of salonika liked rempetiko and also liked Bribery 😄 turning the city to a musicians hub and starting this way a sort of modern tradition
I’m Greek and I’m proud of Oriental culture. Thank you for making educational videos
I love the style of videography you use, it’s like a documentary crossed with a podcast. The setting is really visually appealing, the audio quality is amazing considering the fact it must have been windy in a lot of places you shot- and it’s not overstimulating, it’s informational, calm, and conversationally oriented. Your channel deserves more growth and I wouldn’t be surprised to see it blow up over time. Please don’t change your video style because I’m obsessed.
Very inspiring and thought provoking video explaining the historical depth of Greece and the Eastern Mediterranean as a whole.
I feel humbled as Greek that you devoted that much time to explain the obvious.
As the "byzantine" eastern roman two-eagled flag suggests, Anatolia was a vital part of the Greek/Romios psyche, starting from antiquity all the way until 1204 and the later fall of Istanbul or Constantinople if you like. Primary education in Greece does not focus too much on the medieval history of the people that were dwelling in the region during the middle ages, possibly out of fear that the nationalist Great Idea/ "Megali Idea" of trying to assimilate Anatolia will resurface again in the mind of the ordinary people but that doesn't do justices to heroes and foes that lived throughout that period but at the same time that could help us learn invaluable lessons about who Greeks are truly and evolve further on.
That being said, I want to clarify that I am not a revisionist or nationalist, but on the contrary, a pacifist that would like to see the eastern med trade routes and cultural exchanges revive again between the regions all the way from Greece to Iran in his lifetime.
I would like to thank you for shedding light into this sensitive issue of my nation's duality of cultural and historical identity, that has been in darkness for so long due to economic and political circumstances, as well as insidious colonial practices followed in the 18th and 19th century, as you mentioned.
wow, im very impressed as a Greek. It still cannot believe you are not (originally) Greek.youre the Greekest man ive ever seen xD thanks for representing our music culture in this great video.
Kind of sounds like classical Indian music too here and there. Greece, Rome and the Indian subcontinent has a glorious history of interaction spanning well over 2300++ years. There was a thriving Greek community living in Sri Lanka around 2000+ years ago. we called them "Yonas" or "yavana" which is clearly the Sanskrit form of Ionian. Greeks are the only Europeans we loved and welcomed into our homes.
Greek music separates into two parts: Greek traditional music and Byzantine music. These compositions have existed for millennia: they originated in the Byzantine period and Greek antiquity; there is a continuous development which appears in the language, the rhythm, the structure and the melody.
There is evidence that the Greeks began to study music theory as early as the 6th century BCE. This consisted of harmonic, acoustic, scalar, and melody studies. The earliest surviving (but fragmentary) text on the subject is the Harmonic Elements by Aristoxenos, written in the 4th century BCE.
Music was also present in ancient Greek lyric poetry, which by definition is poetry or a song accompanied by a lyre. Lyric poetry eventually branched into two paths, monodic lyric which were performed by a singular person, and choral lyric which were sung and sometimes danced by a group of people choros.
The lyre enjoyed high cultural status in Mesopotamia and the Classical Greek and Roman world.
Unlikely Ottoman Seljuk influenced Greek music but rather the other way around.
I remember several years ago, an accomplished Greek musician was being interviewed on TV and he was insisting that Greek music is fundamentaly "Western". The interviewer asked him
- Wait a minute, when you go to traditional wedding celebrations do you listen to violins or Cretan Lyras and Greek clarinets?"
- The later but that's irrelevant, he said
- And yet you insist that Greek music is closer to Beethoven than the clarinets?
- Yes, the musician answered, completely unironicaly.
I couldn't believe my ears.
This is why I don't even use the terms "Eastern" and "Western" these days. I'll say stuff like "East Mediterranean", "Western European", "Balkan", "West Asian", etc.
You can even simply these terms to three words “Mediterranean” and “Broadly European” 😅
@@SxVaNm345 Ehhhh not really. Italy and Morocco are both Mediterranean yet have entirely different musical traditions
@@BlackLotusVisualArchive South Italian music sounds North African
The dude I follow to get some music for my Byzantine-inspired D&D campaign suddenly drops a great video explaining Greek music. An unexpected surprised to be sure, but a welcome one!
The funniest thig with the "Leonidas fought for the west" thing is , Leonidas in fact barely even ever fought for the rest of the Hellenic city states at the time 🤣he and the rest of the Spartans literally only fought for the kingdom of Sparta and that's about it. 😅 He in fact could care less if even Athens was destroyed, let alone "Europe"
''He in fact could care less if even Athens was destroyed'' Well Athens was ally and the Greeks had indeed united in the battle of Thermopylae. In Thermopylae many soldiers from many Greek cities were fighting not only the spartans as it is shown in the movie.
In Egypt we have a similar problem, in that people fetishize Ancient Egypt while regarding modern Egyptian culture as foreign (as well as modern Egyptians). Even though many aspects of our culture can be traced back before the Arab conquests, on top of this our government always had this direction of associating our culture with being Arab rather than labeling it as Egypt an which has convinced many Egyptians that our culture is not one of native evolution rather it's one we adopted from conqueror. I find this really funny, cause most of what people label as Arab culture can be traced back to Egypt from food to clothing idk just food for thought. Btw we Egyptians share dishes like moussaka and macarona bechamel with the Greeks👍, we also have a deep respect for Iran.
If anything the reverse is true. Turkish music was influenced by Anatolian Greek (and Iranian and Arabic) music, moving away from the Turkic roots.
@@jackholler3572 Farya has a whole playlist of Turkic music, which sounds like the music of Central Asia and the Steppes. Similar to Mongolian.
@@jackholler3572 tell me what is the music of Anatolia, not the dombra obviously
He must have deleted his comment. Realized his mistake, perhaps?
As a Turk I agree, our music still has steppe influence though especially in Central Anatolia. Also our food, originally it was mostly meat, dairy, and flour. Foods like manti, katmer, gozleme, kavurma, yoghurt are clearly Turkic in origin. Most vegetable foods were from neighbouring peoples like Greeks and Armenians, etc.
As a Greek born and raised in Greece, I've always kind of known instinctively that what you're saying is true. I come from Kythnos ,a tiny island in the Cyclades and whenever I hear the laouto and the violin (aka nissiotika), even my blood starts to dance. The same thing more or less happens with music from Crete, Asia Minor, Thrace, and Eperos, even from other parts of the Balcan Peninsula. It's like my DNA has co-evolved alongside this music. I've never felt that connection with music coming from the Ionian Island nor with Zorba-esque music -and now I know why.
Funnily I’m of croatian coastal origin, no oriental influence here, more from Venice same like Ionian islands 😉But I like the oriental sound more 😂
Another Greek here. I vividly remember spending some lovely time in Beirut, Lebanon, where I got a taxi with this guy singing to the radio in Lebanese. Oh man, I knew these songs from Kazandzidis and other Greek artists back home. It was awesome. We were singing the same songs, same melodies, in our own language….glorious
as a greek and lover of rempetika and byzantine music this is one of the best and most informative videos i have watched, awesome stuff!
I so enjoy your channel. I have been able to learn so much more about the historical impacts of music and the different cultures that you have represented. What I really appreciate is your ability to show the historical and cultural influences. Thank you for being such a great creator and sharing your knowledge. You truly are an inspriation.
I enjoyed this very much; very much agree with a lot of your take on it. I recently was driving some Swiss colleagues in my car and one asked to listen to Greek music; I put some which I had saved on Spotify and one tells me, 'but this sounds Turkish' and he received a short version answer of your presentation!
But I still think I would agree with your Swiss friends.
@@rooibos3857 never worth agreeing w/ the swiss
What a journey you took us on. Thank you for educating us on a very misunderstood nation. I can tell this video took a lot of passion to make, one which I share. I love your channel man, keep making art!
And the worst part is that people who are saying "that is arabic" can not even tell the difference between Greek and Arabic music. Only because there are some similarities they are like "that is arabic"... Never heard an Arabic music with a bagpipe or Pontic lyra.
As a Westerner, remember these same people still think bagpipes are exclusive to Scotland 😅
@@Badnercalabrese Exactly.
m.th-cam.com/video/s4X9ws9jK3E/w-d-xo.html&pp=ygUSVHVuaXNpYW4gYmFncGlwZXMg
There are many eastern and Arabic songs sung in Greek versions without people even knowing it and thinking it is traditional Greek music. Tunisian, Egyptian, Turkish, Indian songs sung in Greek... but people take things for granted...
Yes. There is huge diversity of music within the middle east / balkans. They are just so unfamiliar with it that the vary superficial level makes thwm label it all the same and shit their ears immediately.
I would say many would have similar reactions to music from other regions of the world like India, eas asia or africa.
Only through experience and familiarity you can notice the nuance.
I don’t understand why people refuse to believe that Greek music sounds eastern. Before I discovered your channel I had no idea how Greek music sounded like but when I heard your epic Greek/Byzantine music I did not think that it sounded off or to eastern. It sounded exactly how I thought Greek music would. Like exotic music from way down south far removed from the Hardanger fiddle and willow flute of Norway
They mean the modern Greek music like these ones.
th-cam.com/video/DQhHJ3euyQE/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/1dgM7hOlptQ/w-d-xo.html
Try listening to modern greek music.
So Funny Outro my friend Farya! Thank you so much for showing the Greek Heritage to the world. This world needs more people like you, people that see without blinders. I would like to see more videos from you..
It's the same in Portugal with fado. English and French people refuse to accept it as indigenous to Portugal, they HAVE to believe it's Arabic in origin.
I love your music a lot. Everything you've made helps me get through my university studying. Especially the Roman music, since I'm studying law and it always sets me in the perfect mood. You have been of great help and your music is essential for survival. Much love from Serbia, master of your craft Farya Faraji.
We know that Italians and Greeks are alike. We know also that Greeks are like Iranians as well. We need to solve the mystery: are Italians and Iranians alike as well? I joke but wouldn’t be surprised if that was true in some meaningful way.
All jokes aside that's actually a good question
One of the best and most well thought videos out there. Both historically and musically to the point. It is essential that all of these are heard beyond the borders of TH-cam.
Thank you Farya Faraji, εύγε ❤