It’s NOT a trail bike it’s more a baby enduro or All mountain. Neil just wanted an excuse to ride the 150 spectral and bit his self in the A*s doing it! Now everyone is talking 💩 in the comments😂😂🤣
Came here to say exactly this. 160/150 travel is pretty much Enduro category anyway, which is what Canyon categorise it as. It would be interesting to see how it would be on a 120/120 travel bike?
140 mm is never under-biked unless you are doing freeride. even running it on uci world cup dh tracks is sufficient enough unless you want to win. but for weekend rides? nah, its fun enough.
I have an enduro bike, which is definitely "over-biked' for my local trails, which are all cross county in nature. However, I'm in my mid 60's, and appreciate the extra comfort. Plus, we do travel 2-3 times a year to ride more challenging trails, and it's nice to have confidence that my bike (and I) will be confident about our capabilities.
I tend to go with over biked as it's easy to adjust the suspension for the trail you're riding that day. Under biked means you probably have multiple bikes for different things and it's not really affordable with current pricing.
Thank you for the comparison video. I feel like this does help people consider what they really want to use their bike for. Me, I’m 40 and ride a Marin rift zone XR which is 130/140. Before that I exclusively rode around on a hard tail and learned how to let the bike move underneath me quite well. My trail bike has opened up a whole world of playful opportunities!
Your videos are usually excellent, and the concept here is interesting. However, even Canyon categorizes the Spectral as an enduro bike. There was not nearly enough contrast. For restitution, you should redo the video with the Orbea against a Spectral 125 and a hardtail.
A 125 travel bike and a hardtail might break at Dyfi, people don't realize how insane that bike park is. Dyfi was built to train pro DH racers and most of the trails are pro lines (beyond double black).
Fun topic, I definitely enjoy over-biking 👍 Not because I wish I were riding double blacks, but because I enjoy being comfortable lol and, as an average rider, it gives me more confidence on sketchy features when I come across them.
Nice insight as usual Neil. So many variables but I think age and how much your body is hammered plays a part. I've been riding since '92 and had a fair few injuries. I lean on the overbiked side purely for comfort and having a bit more to play with on the rougher stuff as you mention.
@@BlackMan614 I've not had a great experience with advice at bike shops.. I seem to get "you want a road/MTB/etc bike? There they are. More money equals better, it's just a question of what you're willing to spend. The bike has to be name-matched to the task (road for road). If that doesn't work for you, you need to accept that." Things like the 175mm cranks (right size for 5'11"/1.8m rider) being slapped on everything have highlighted for me that bike companies/sellers don't care if it's right for the owner.
The thing is, you can also build your trail bike with Enduro parts, but keep it mid travel. Ive seen alot of trail bikes with 150/140 travel-27.5 or even 140/130 29ers running 4 piston brakes big 200mm+ rotors, 35/36 mm stanchions fork, rear shocks with piggybacks, enduro tires. You could definitely build a mid travel Burly bike.
bumped my Yeti SB 5.5 up to a Fox 38x170 and have burly wheels on it. Looking to get an insanely light (but tough) wheel set with light trail tires on it so it’s more fun on my local trails that I usually ride my SS hard tail (160mm Ohlins coil) on. I love tweaking my bikes to fit my terrain and riding style. the companies have to cater to sales volume so they generally don’t excel in specific areas within their product lineups
I've just finished exactly that build. SC Hightower frame (so 145mm shock) but Fox 36 160mm, Hope Tech 4 E4 brakes (200F/180R), DT Swiss XMC 1501 wheels, 180mm dropper, SRAM AXS X01 drivetrain. Minion DHR II front and back. Very much in the All Mountain box, but it weighs exactly 14kg inc pedals, so it's a great trail bike that can also get me down anything without big drops (or anything within my ability!!). I love it.
@@SprSonik13I'd definitely recommend the DT Swiss XMC 1501 wheels if they're in your budget. Just over 1500g for the pair, but All Mountain rated. I love them (altho the DT Swiss 240 hubs are a bit loud).
I did this on both my previous bikes which weren't enduro bikes. My Giant Trance had SLX 2 pots, 203mm rotor up front, front travel extended to 160mm and Assegai/Dissector tire combo. My Ibis Ripmo had a set of DT Swiss FR560 wheels (got tired of killing Ibis rims), XT 4 pots with 203mm rotors at both ends, cascade link, DVO Onyx fork, and cushcore out back. Each was fun in its own way, the Giant was a great little jumper but too short and outdated geo for steep tech. The Ripmo just did everything pretty well and was fairly confident on steep tech. I now have a full on 160/170 travel enduro bike and the difference on faster terrain is night and day even vs the 151/160 travel Ibis. The Ripmo felt fine on big bike terrain, but the enduro bike feels like an absolute weapon on the same terrain.
seems the only way to truly compare is to run the same wheels and tires on the trail in Enduro bikes. That way you’re seeing the differences purely from the frame/suspension. I used to run a heavy, aggressive, tire wheel set and a light fast tire wheel set on the same bike, and it completely changed the bike. I went from a fleet of bikes down to one aggressive hard tail and one big trail bike when I realized that wheel entire selection made much more difference than 20 mm of travel and 1/2 degree in the head tube
Fair to say Dyfi isn't a great barometer of under vs over biked. That's the bike park that has developed a reputation for being unrideable by anyone short of a pro (most of its trails are pro lines). My current bike is a RM Altitude, yes it's a proper enduro bike, but manages to be more lively even on blue trails and more comfortable for big pedal days than the Ibis Ripmo I had before it. It's unreal ability to carry speed makes even blue trails fun on it, because you start railing corners and try to send it off every rock and root. The plush ride of the enduro bike is also nice for comfort, especially when you're not in your 20s or 30s anymore.
I'd probably question whether a less experienced rider (like myself!) would feel a significant difference between a trail and enduro bike. It'd probably be interesting seeing a few new-ish riders out on a range of bikes and seeing their takes on them, as a lot of newer riders probably only have experience of hardtails
Imho the biggest difference in feel comes down to tyrechoice. Put a heavy DD casing for aggressive riding on your trailbike and it will feel heavy and slow on the uphill and grippy/more secure on the downhill. Using the same tyre combo on a trail vs a (non-extreme) enduro bike shouldn't make much of a difference, unless you are racing. The 20mm difference on the suspension might help an inexperienced rider on some line choice mistakes/sloppy jumping, but the difference would be negligible, because you're not riding as fast and/or in as technical challenging terrain as a beginner. I.e. pick the bike that is tailored to the stuff you'll be riding on a regular basis; most of the full suspension bikes nowadays are capable enough, even the short travel models, and the deciding factor is the person riding the bike.
Look at a modern enduro bike as a downhill bike that you can pedal uphill. So unless you have the abilities and skills / confidence to ride pretty challenging trails e.g. the Slab Track at Dyfi then you don't really need an enduro. If you are less experienced and ride an enduro bike it's going to be pretty dead and unchallenging for you. If you started with a trail bike then hit a point where you wanted to go further and the bike is holding you back, then maybe consider an enduro rig.
You definitely feel the difference, I’m not a pro but can definitely feel the difference between bikes and use the ones I’ve got for their intended style… usually…😬
For a new-ish rider on green/blue trails without a lot of fast downhill an enduro bike will probably feel big and ponderous. but they will feel very confident on downhill tech. If you're at the point where you're leaning the bike over to corner, are comfortable with jumping and are already pumping the bike on trail features even on regular trails, then you might be able to get some speed out of an enduro bike to the point where it comes alive.
I’m an older riders with a great deal of experience, in my case mostly off-road motorcycle racing, but have ridden bikes for decades and stayed pretty darned fit. Guys like me will trade off the extra thrill of a lighter, livelier bike for the extra control/safety of a more capable bike. Turning the pedals has never been my problem. Avoiding crashes and injury are very important. So yeah, I’ll work a little harder and perhaps arrive a little later but I want to get there in one piece no matter what the terrain offers up. I’m riding a Specialized Stumpjumper Evo expert with 150/160mm travel and don’t find it at all unmanageable. I’m 73yrs, 169mm and 61 kilos.
If you're confident on Dyfi trails, then you're well above the skill level of the average rider. So you're probably one of those who likes to ride underbiked for the challenge.
The don's the best gmbn presenter in my opinion , always solid content and no childish nonsense like the other presenters are getting into more and more .
In the last 4 years the definition of each categories has increased by 10-20mm across the board. I remember when everyone thought the Norco sight was an enduro bike.
I ride a 150/140 Trek Fuel EX, it gives me plenty of travel for chunk but I can flip the Minot link and adjust the compression settings on days when I’m just doing XC riding with my wife(she’s 120/120)…it works well for me and my 56 year old knees.
As an older rider, I chose to go with something that would protect my joints with a smoother ride. I went with 160/140 on the analog bike and 150/150 on the ebike. I ride techy trails, bike parks, and pump tracks. I'm just starting to get a little air and doing small drops. The analog weighs 34 lbs and the ebike weighs 50 lbs. I've had lighter bikes. But, I don't mind the extra weight versus less suspension.
I went from a 160mm/140mm 29'r to a 150/130mm 27.5 and am way happier. The 29'r was a monster truck and could just mow things over but the shorter travel 27.5 is just more fun to ride. Even though you have to be a bit more selective on lines, that actually kinda adds to the enjoyment. You have to hop around its a challenge. The old bike might have been faster going down but thats not really what I am after.
I switched from 27,5 to a mullet and its much better now on the chunk, but on jumps the front needs to be pulled more because the weight drags it down. I did have a 29er a couple of years ago and I agree what you say. Even though im 6 ft 2. Any tight corners were much harder and while doing bunny hop it felt forever to pull off. Jumping was so weird.
I'm just happy to see a GMBN video where the presenter is wearing protective gear appropriate for the terrain being ridden, rather than the bike they're on.
I take my Enduro bike to the Swiss Alps, but for the local hills at home I take my hardtail. Enduro bike is totally over biked for the local trails and the soft compound tires suck the life out of me on the uphill 😆
Interesting subject, even after almost 30 years practicing mtb. I personaly have often been overbiked. Last example was my Rocky Altitude. I felt confident but after 3 hours riding with my friends, I was always exhausted, My actual bike is an Orange Stage Evo, just a 130/120 travel. But I really prefer this one. It is much more dynamic, so I am less tired during long rides. And when I go in the mountains, I still have plenty of sensentions. So my advise will be: Buy the good bike for your local trails, not for those you ride twice a year.
150mm fork with 35 or 36 mm stanchions and a 140 mm rear is my sweet spot for a trail bike. Put some better tires on the Spectral and i bet the times are the same as the enduro bike.
Ive never had more than 100mm on any of my bikes and I seem to be going as fast as anyone else. I prefer light and fast to heavy and more sus. On the trails I ride its more than enough. Im actually building a Sworks epic frame up that only has 95mm rear travel. Steep head angles dont bother me either. Ive been riding 33 years so im used to it.
Nice comparison Neil. Your attention to important details was excellent. I would probably 'over-tire' my 160/150 travel trail bike to address such trail conditions.
150/160 travel bikes can ride pretty much anything an enduro bike can, just a little slower and with a less smooth ride. I rode an Ibis Ripmo for 3 years and basically had DH wheels on it (DT Swiss FR560s) and then ran EXO+ tires with a cush core out back. Used it on everything from pedally XC trails to bike park days, it did the job though the 38lb weight wasn't conducive to going up and the ride got chattery at the bike park when the speeds came up. I now ride a 160/170 travel enduro bike and it's faster, more confident and more comfortable and weighs 4lbs less. I would generally recommend an enduro tire setup on a 150/160 travel bike since the travel and geo will let you do big bike things on it.
Overbiked all the way for me! It gives you a bit of room for error, it you do go off line and take a big compression you’ve got the travel to take the hit if you’ve got less travel your going to feel it! My bikes saved me countless times!😂
Not much, mine is 120 rear 130 front, and it handles everything just fine, including double black downhill bike park tracks, suspension travel along with head angle has mostly become a sales pitch by manufacturers to try and convince people to buy new bikes.
@@rubberside3969 i think it just comes down to riding style. if you like to ride slow and pick your way through stuff it doesnt matter, but those things start to become very noticeable when youre blasting through chunk
@@sam61480 Depends on the trails too. You can defintiely pick your way down a double black DH track, if the trail can be ridden that slowly. Example, in Moab you can ride the double black trail Captain Ahab on pretty much anything since it's mostly super grippy slickrock which can be ridden as slow as you like. Try that on Top of the World in Whistler and you're going off a cliff, Whistler rock is not grippy at all and you MUST go fast down rocky sections in Whistler or you're going to end up in a slide and crashing.
Was good to have a chat with you on the day bud, really interesting look at riding Iv done similar as I had a polygon Siskiu D5 now riding a specialized BIGHIT 1 with tripples I’m definitely over biked now but feels so much more comfortable at DYFi.
I’ve been lucky enough in my job to try a variety of bikes in the last 3 years. The bike I actually own is a 2021 Giant Trance 29er with 115mm rear travel and a 130mm fork. That’s had a set of 27.5 wheels on it for the last year to make it even more playful. Through work I’ve tried both the Gen 1 Levo SL Comp Carbon (full 29er, 150mm travel all round) and now the Levo SL2 Comp Alloy (mullet wheels, 150mm rear travel, 160mm fork and a burlier build kit than its predecessor) and also a Specialized Enduro Expert which is full 29er and 170mm travel all round with a coil shock. I found the 1st Gen Levo SL to be a lot of fun, but under equipped for the level of travel with a Fox 34 and a Fox Float DPS. It didn’t feel any faster than my shorter travel Giant but had a similar ride feel. The Levo SL2 feels more like a 150/160mm bike should thanks to the burlier Fox 36 and the Float X rear shock. The mullet wheels help it to stay playful and nimble. The Enduro was a tank. Far too much bike for what I ride most. Great through fast open sections with chunky rocks and roots but it took some effort to get it to corner well on slower more technical bits. I also struggled to manipulate it in the air due to its sheer size. All 4 of the bikes have been size Medium or S3 in Specialized S sizing. Long story short, I’ve always come back to the short travel Giant and fallen back in love with it every time I’ve ridden it after spending time on something bigger. It’s done things that are way out of its depth and it’s been set up stiff with the most volume spacers in the fork and shock so it’s a rocket ship to pedal and doesn’t blow through its travel on big hits. So my personal conclusion is I like being under biked. Maybe because I come from BMX and dirt jump bikes and my formative years of mtb riding were all done on a singlespeed dirt jumper with only a rear brake. I used to ride everything on that. Skateparks, dirt jumps, downhill/freeride style stuff and singletrack trails in the woods. I’d just adjust the forks to be stiffer or softer depending on what I was riding that day and maybe swap out the tyres to something more or less knobby and run higher or lower pressures depending on the terrain. Those were some of the most fun times I’ve had on a bike and most of the time it was entirely the wrong bike for the job.
Great video. I know what you mean about people naturally overbike. I did this with my previous bike, a Norco Range Carbon. Now I’m on a Santa Cruz tallboy which has a lot less travel and it fits my riding better. 😊
What I've been learning is that being over biked or underbiked sucks. Having the right bike for the job is where it's at. A 2 bike quiver with a short travel trail and enduro bike is where it's at.
I agrée about buying for what you want to be riding. I should probably have gotten a long travel, full sus XC bike rather tu an a trail bike, but I love riding my trail bike so much and I can take it on everything I want to ride. Seem to be the conclusion of Neil’s video really is, you are fastest on what you are most confident on !
As someone who rides an enduro bike and has previously owned an Ibis Ripmo and a trail bike before that, no a 150 travel bike is not an enduro bike. 150 travel is usually called "All Mountain" as they kinda fit between trail and enduro. Once the speeds come up even that 10mm difference in travel between a 150/160 bike and a 160/170 bike becomes very apparent. The enduro bike is just on another level in terms of stability and ability to carry speed, they also tend to corner better than trail/AM bikes. At slow speeds though, the enduro bike might feel a little lifeless.
If you consider things from purely Enduro racing, sure, however for most users it's not a trail bike, it is even listed under the enduro category on the website.
comes down to the individual bike too. My current bike is 160/170 travel and feels more plush than some bigger bikes I've ridden. Though that comes down to a suspension setup that works particularly well for heavy riders, the back end has 42% progression curve which lets me run the shock quite linear (I'm 250lbs and am running zero spacers in the X2 for normal trails and only 1 spacer for bike park) while still having good bottom out resistance.
In theory this all holds up enough, but I have both a short travel trail bike and then a kind of medium travel Enduro bike. The ladder has industry. Non-wheels is fully carbon has a good drivetrain, has great suspension. It's hard not to ride my favorite bike even if it is a little much for the trails
Makes me glad I "overbiked" and bought the Polygon N7 this Christmas as a beginner. I was worried I would enjoy the T8 more when I made the purchase (I definitely enjoy the paint more on the T8). So far I like the N7 though, just need to get more confident and in better shape to start tackling the uphills so I can have some fun on the downhills. Also very hard to compare them when I've never touched a T8.
Maybe there not bothered about being efficient, not everyone is chasing times trying to get miles done quick. Some people are just destressing in comfort and keeping fit some are just having fun. Ride what you like to ride I say
I went through a lot of bikes when I first started, something like 6 in 2 years. Everything from a cross country to a GT Fury DH. Multiple reasons why, mostly a lack of knowledge. However what I learnt was that the downhill bike gave me confidence to try obstacles that I never would have looked at on a cross country. It was massively overkill in hindsight, but it bought confidence. I’ve settled on a Specialized Levo SL enduro with Fox 38s (180mm travel) which still gives me a huge amount of confidence in the bike, but a more nimble and versatile bike over a DH especially. I went ebike because I had a baby and can’t maintain my fitness like I used to. 😂
My personal thought: I love my enduro bike and wouldn't give it up for any money in the world ( Custom Nomad V4 )! Nevertheless, I have to and want to say that even trail bikes are so incredibly capable. With just a few adjustments and tweaks, you can build yourself a "mini enduro". Especially when it comes to suspension settings and tyre choice, you can create so much support even for very rough trails. And 150 mm of suspension travel is in no way "short travel". What is certain, however, is that an enduro bike has even more reserves and is therefore more forgiving of riding errors. But I think that for the masses, a well-built trail bike is sufficient overall, as the range of use can be so widely diversified. On the other hand, you can see (excuse the expression) how pointless a downhill bike is these days. But hey, the bottom line is that we all want to have as much fun as possible on the trails!
It also comes down to how the kinematics of the bike favor certain riding styles. To use other SC bikes for an example, the Hightower is a wonderfully poppy and playful rowdy trail bike, but would be out of its element being a "mini enduro" bike. For comparison the Transition Sentinel is the very definition of a "mini enduro" bike, it's much more of a stable, planted speed demon. The Ibis Ripmo sort of splits the difference, but leans more towards the enduro side and feels more sorted doing big bike things than the Hightower, the Ripmo that I rode for 3 years was set up like a mini-enduro and it didn't do half bad in that setup. All 3 bikes fall into that 150 travel class.
I am riding a 160/160 Enduro Bike but with relatively fast rolling tires. Currently on trail casing Vittoria Martello (fr) Aggaro (re). Guess you could say the bike is undertired ;) For how I use it I find that´s a pretty good compromise though. Normally riding a mix of longer distance touring on natural trails /singletrack for which a short travel trail bike would be more appropriate and a good bit of bikepark where the extra suspension travel and burlier frame are nice for jumps and drops but the trails are mostly hardpack. I am giving up a bit of all out grip but with the faster rolling tires I don´t find much difference in terms of efficiency compared to a shorter travel bike.
Neil gets it i've thought about getting a slopestyle bike for my intermediate riding where i want a bit more than a hardtail but not quite a "real" full sus. Even my enduro is just an over-built trail bike (140/140)
i ride now way overbuilt dh bike but the one i always dreamt of and couldnt afford it earlier when i was more fit for that sport. i dont regret buying it since its way more comfy then my previous bike but i fear im being laughed at riding such a great bike the way i do. i try to tell myself that noone should be shamed for trying what they dreamt of as long as its doing no harm to anyone. i had a pretty bad crash some time ago and still recovering from trauma and the dream bike i have now is giving me courage and 'insurance' to train and 'git good'. one other point is that as long as you enjoy your bike does it matter if you are a bit slower than others? chill, have fun, stay safe and appreciate all bikes : )
I rode Revelstoke BC on my XC hardtail with Fox float 32s. Might have rattled my chops, but I shredded with the rest of the guys just fine. Didn't drop my chain once!
I’m mostly on a full 29er trail bike with 150/160 and 63.5 head angle. I feel like it’s the sweet spot for pretty much all terrain. My e bike is a mullet 140/160 with 65 head angle which surprisingly feels almost identical. Only the front wheel is slightly more temperamental on high speed flow trails, meaning more attention to weight distribution is needed. But it works really well on steep tech and jumps.
Sort of in the realm of Ferrari, Porche, or Corvette. Cars for the track, used on public roads, similarly some mountain bikes are done up, great forks, awesome suspension and are only utilized for gravel trails. However, nice to know there is the capability for knarly adventures should the opportunity arrive, or one travels to some exotic bike terrain. Cheers!
At the age of 59, I have just gone and brought an Enduro bike, and sold my trail bike. A couple of things to note, I do have an E-bike as well, so most of the Enduro bike use will be at bike parks. I have ridden one of my older XC bikes at bike parks, and completely wrecked my back shock 3 times (it didn't like high speed braking bumps 😞) Enduro or Trail should cover must peoples uses.
I ended up overbiked. I had 8 years without riding (even then I'd had that bike for years) then decided to get back into it. Discovered I didn't know what I was looking at. After asking around settled on a norco torrent (150mm hardtail). Found that on the tracks near me with the people I ride with, that is too much bike, so ended up buying an XC bike, which I love and suits me most of the time. If I could do over I'd probably buy a 120 or 130mm travel bike instead.
I ride a bike with 160 / 150 travel and 27.5 x 2.60 tires... I am really old. I have my son drop me off at the top of the run and then I plummet to the bottom (no need to do any climbing). He then picks me up at the parking lot below and we go get Pizza and Beer. This is the best MTB day you can have!
I think you need to expand this. Take the same three bikes and do a standard trail ride, throw in some uphills. Then do all three on a downhill trail, safely.
150/160 for underbiked? Lol. That’s an all mountain bike- should be able to handle that trail and more just fine. I know, it’s what I ride. Would like to have seen a 120/130 bike for the underbiked bike- something like the Ibis Ripley or SC Tallboy. Because IMO geo and the linkage is so much more important than just amount of travel. Longer, slacker, tougher components (like a 36 or Lyric) with a linkage that doesn’t have a quick harsh bottom out on a shorter travel bike will let that bike go much bigger. Likewise, the opposite on a longer travel bike is still gonna feel sketch at 35 mph through gnar. And since most bikes are built with short seat tubes you can size up or down to get your preferred geo on a bike with any amount of travel, so you really can build exactly the bike you want. Even two of the same model bikes will feel different and handle different stuff better depending on how they are built.
I’m getting old but went the other way. I used to ride the big travel enduro bikes, then went to the Spectral and now I’ve gone even smaller on the Reactor. Just got tired of peddling big bikes around and like the fast and fun days
First of all, I'm 54, and bones don't mend as quick as they do in your twenties. I've just bought a YT Izzo, which many would consider to be underbiked. I think it will be a whole lotta fun, without the potential consequences of getting it wrong. In my 30's, I had an MGB GT. Going 60 miles an hour was living on the edge, way more so than going 120 in an Audi 10 years later. That's why I prefer to underbike...
Jumped on a 150/140mm trail bike a couple of years ago and was amazed how capable it was compared to my HT with no dropper. Didn't think I was over or under biked at any point made everything feel easy and gave me room for progression and try increasingly tough things. After these couple of years I'm now faster and harder on the bike and I'm starting to feel under biked. Needed more travel for the hits, slacker steering to reduce the nervousness on higher speeds, etc. I'm guessing the kind of bike you need should be appropriate to your skill level but allow a bit of room for progression.
Just 10 years ago, 150/160 was enduro…130/140 trail…120mm below cross country. And 26” was still the standard. With 29ers all those numbers shrunk early on..now they are huge…170mm enduro??! Rampage was ridden like that some years.
When I got my first “real” bike, it was a 2018 Hightower (specifically after watching the gmbn tech episode that featured it). I didn’t think I’d ever be able to jump, drop, or ride anything chunky, even though I wanted to. After only a year, I tried my hand at a few downhill tracks and quickly realized how underbiked I was. A little over a year ago, I picked up a 2018 yt Capra and it’s made all the difference on dh days. I chose not to go with a full dh bike though because I don’t think I’ll ever be able to jump or drop anything big enough, or ride anything chunky enough to need it, even though I want to….. wait a sec, did that last bit sound familiar?
Canyon and most other brands put the 150 bikes under the trail category. There is quite a big difference between a race bred 170 and a trail oriented 150. Swapping from a spec enduro to a stumpjunper evo was quite a change. Local terrain also dictates whether you see a 130 vs 150 bike as a trail bike. It's worth noting I can put down similar times on the stump jumper compared to old times on the enduro, but the ride quality, kinematic feel, and the ability to hit true enduro runs consecutively are noticeably different.
It can depend where you are in your biking journey too, you might go bigger as a newer rider fot the stability, and the longevity of use in a bike as you learn. Like getting a school sweater 2 sizes too big... You can grow into it ;) still a big purchase getting a bike and this was certainly something I considered and don't regret it at all.
Average rider here…I had a Canyon Spectral and for anyone who wants one bike it’s great. I did a week of switching from DH with a lift, Enduro race trials and basic trails. It was able to do them all but I came away with that weekend is I need 2 bikes…Short travel trial and a proper Enduro. DH trial at speed over really techy sections felt a little sketchy and in regular trials a big heavy’ish bike wears you out after a while.
Spectral “short travel”???!! I’m fairly sure Ritchie Rude rode a Yeti SB150 on the EWS…fairly sure he won a few too! Wouldn’t necessarily call a 150mm travel bike “short travel”…unless of course the frames of reference have shifted (appreciate Yeti now have the SB160 replacing the SB150)… Is it “marketing”? I say just ride what works for you!!
The giant slacked out sled bikes don't win EWS/EDR races, but only pros are going to be able to push a smaller bike THAT hard on that type of terrain. The giant slack bikes let us mere mortals ride really rowdy trails with more confidence and less chance of ending up in hospital.
Also bike travel depends on the style of riding of the rider. Some guys might be more smooth riding down and others might like to play more with the bike and ride the same trails demanding that extra of the bike on purpose. My best friend, rides a 29" hardtail with 140 mm in the same trails we ride together, and we're pretty much equally fast. He rides pretty smooth and stable, Myself on the other hand, i ride a 27,5 170mm front-150mm back very aggressively and i am always popping out of roots, and rocks, doing gaps, and tacking the straightest lines through the trails that i can which ends up demanding more of my bike. Since i use all the travel and bike suspensions are properly set up to our weights. Have a nice day guys
Would LOVE to see you guys make a video comparing what you think are the top five 27.5 hard tails. Who’s with me? Really wish Trek kept the Roscoe a 27.5 Or maybe even your top 27.5 or mixed wheel HT’s (including Blake’s beloved Nukeproof Scout, of course) up against the new generation Roscoe with its 29’s. Would love a reason to pick up something other than another Roscoe for my new HT in spring. Enlighten us 🤘🏼
I think many beginner riders overspend on high bikes that they don't need. I live in Mexico and I see many beginners or those that rider every other week once on bikes and e-bikes worth a car yet they do not need it but are sold the lie that they need it. Unfortunately MTB prices are high to begin with in my country....but people here use creditcards or cash on 3-5k bikes when its not necessary. And the secondhand market here is sheist. I bought a secondhand GIant Trance X 2 (2021) but after a year of riding I feel I have out ride the bike to its maximum potential. Ive upgraded the 150 rockshox pike select to 160 with a cost efficient debon air upgrade (20 EUR)....changed the derraileur from SLX to XT because the SLX was bended...rear rotor from Deore 160 to XT 203...and shifter slx to XT....all from parts bought through Aliexpress to save money...either way the Giant is too small for me...its a size L and im 180 cm and it falls medium...its very playful but where i live its trail/enduro with steep rocky parts so time to upgrade and invest in a 3k bike...either Propain, YT, Canyon...
I'd love to see a Jones LWB in a comparison like this, but mostly just to see where it would fall. While having no suspension they do surprisingly well in technical terrain and single track - far better than you'd expect for such a rigid bike. Not saying it would win any of these categories. Honestly I am just curious in an apple to apples comparison.
normally ride a Whyte t130 at 150mm on a demo day I rode a Whyte E180, I wasn't just quicker where the E helps I was so much quicker on everything. conclusion, over biking helps low skilled riders would love to see this again with a wobbler like myself
So e bikes have a little secret, all that extra weight of the battery, nice and low in the bottom tube ... makes the bike a lot more stable. It also damps the ride a bit so even with more basic suspension they ride quite smooth.
Probably something in that as I also rode a Megatower before the E180 which I hated and was very slow on. So much bike for what is effectively a family friendly xc loop I wore myself out on the flats and climbs so had nothing left for the downs. Also tried the Whyte E160 and didn't feel any quicker on the non E bits than my own 130.
This was a really cool video, and I think it made great points and I took a lot away from it. I would agree with the rest of the comments that a 150/160 is not really "short travel" and maybe the spectral 125 would have been a better comparison.
I think we all overbike at the beginning, then when we realise we’re not world champions, we realise we’ve actually overbiked… personally I think underbiking helps you progress more quickly.
The right bike will always be optimal but in my experience being overbiked is just bland and boring because the suspension dulls the trail too much, while being underbiked is a ton of fun and very good skill training. I took my sc 5010 (130/140mm playbike) to the bikepark a couple of weeks ago. The more choppy/rooty trails would have been considerably faster on my nomad but on jumps or steep tech stuff it’s a blast. Bike and body did take a beating though so it does come at a cost.
I only have a hardtail with 130 forks, I'm super underbiked but whatever its still overbiked for trails compared to my BMX so whatever, I'll send it down what I can, if I cant get down something with my hardtail I probably wouldnt attempt it with an enduro either, I've seen plenty of trails with stuff so steep I dont understand how anyone rides down that stuff on any bike, it sucks walking down when your already part way into a trail that you didnt anticipate having a garbage section part way through but it is what it is, no bike can save you from breaking your neck.
Let's see how riders feel into their 40's and 50's riding gnarly dh and big jumps on 140mm. Something that's not discussed is wear and tear on the body, that the DH bikes and dual crown forks absorb more of. Yes, not as playful, but you can ride for longer periods with less damage to your joints. Also, it's not the travel, but the torsional rigidity that a dual crown fork offers when you ping your front tire off things sideways. Just my 2 cents...
The playful part comes down to kinematics more than travel. I've ridden DH bikes that jump better than nearly any trail bike. And I've ridden trail bikes that are hard to get into the air.
Would have been a nice touch if you’d also done a climbing comparison, most real world riding doesn’t have an uplift. We all want to drop fast n fun but the bike we choose to ride will always be a compromise.
![เปิด อาณาจักร หมื่นล้าน "สาระตั้ม" l [Nickynachat]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/3XE0nPF4YkQ/mqdefault.jpg)
150/160 is not really a trail bike. I think they should redo the test with a 140/140 trail bike instead
It’s NOT a trail bike it’s more a baby enduro or All mountain. Neil just wanted an excuse to ride the 150 spectral and bit his self in the A*s doing it! Now everyone is talking 💩 in the comments😂😂🤣
My 130mm/130mm, 27.5" trail bike is being slowly rebranded into an XC bike!
I agree, trail bike should be up to 130mm travel
up to? no@@taranveerkarir9203
My trail bike has 138 150.
Spectral isn't really under-biked for that terrain though 🤷♂️
Came here to say exactly this. 160/150 travel is pretty much Enduro category anyway, which is what Canyon categorise it as.
It would be interesting to see how it would be on a 120/120 travel bike?
yeah right dim tordo even raced the spectral in many enduro worldcup races
@@colincoulthard3021 yeah, going 10/15 mm shorter travel shouldnt be meaningful, i bet tyres were more influential than the bike itself
140 mm is never under-biked unless you are doing freeride. even running it on uci world cup dh tracks is sufficient enough unless you want to win. but for weekend rides? nah, its fun enough.
Yeah the Spectral just goes nomnomnom on that kind of trail
I have an enduro bike, which is definitely "over-biked' for my local trails, which are all cross county in nature. However, I'm in my mid 60's, and appreciate the extra comfort. Plus, we do travel 2-3 times a year to ride more challenging trails, and it's nice to have confidence that my bike (and I) will be confident about our capabilities.
Not sure if it's a British thing. But, I would certainly put a 150/160 bike into enduro category. A 120 to 140 max would be more of a "trail" bike.
I would have liked the video more if it was the baby Canyon Spectral 125, for a bigger contrast.
Definitely, I've the 125 and every trail is party time, I enjoy being under biked.
A 125 travel bike at Dyfi? I don't know which would break first, the bike or Neil?
@@mrvwbug4423 its 140f125r and same geo
I tend to go with over biked as it's easy to adjust the suspension for the trail you're riding that day. Under biked means you probably have multiple bikes for different things and it's not really affordable with current pricing.
Thank you for the comparison video. I feel like this does help people consider what they really want to use their bike for. Me, I’m 40 and ride a Marin rift zone XR which is 130/140. Before that I exclusively rode around on a hard tail and learned how to let the bike move underneath me quite well. My trail bike has opened up a whole world of playful opportunities!
Your videos are usually excellent, and the concept here is interesting. However, even Canyon categorizes the Spectral as an enduro bike. There was not nearly enough contrast.
For restitution, you should redo the video with the Orbea against a Spectral 125 and a hardtail.
You’re trying to kill the poor guy! Mind you ….
I thought he was gonna do a downhill, enduro and cross country initially
A 125 travel bike and a hardtail might break at Dyfi, people don't realize how insane that bike park is. Dyfi was built to train pro DH racers and most of the trails are pro lines (beyond double black).
Fun topic, I definitely enjoy over-biking 👍 Not because I wish I were riding double blacks, but because I enjoy being comfortable lol and, as an average rider, it gives me more confidence on sketchy features when I come across them.
Nice insight as usual Neil. So many variables but I think age and how much your body is hammered plays a part. I've been riding since '92 and had a fair few injuries. I lean on the overbiked side purely for comfort and having a bit more to play with on the rougher stuff as you mention.
I think i agree now 😀
Same. Even my road bike has 50mm seat suspension
Young guys at the bike shop I purchase my bikes from are ALWAYS under biking me. I have to remind them I am a geezer.
@@BlackMan614 I've not had a great experience with advice at bike shops.. I seem to get "you want a road/MTB/etc bike? There they are. More money equals better, it's just a question of what you're willing to spend. The bike has to be name-matched to the task (road for road). If that doesn't work for you, you need to accept that."
Things like the 175mm cranks (right size for 5'11"/1.8m rider) being slapped on everything have highlighted for me that bike companies/sellers don't care if it's right for the owner.
The thing is, you can also build your trail bike with Enduro parts, but keep it mid travel. Ive seen alot of trail bikes with 150/140 travel-27.5 or even 140/130 29ers running 4 piston brakes big 200mm+ rotors, 35/36 mm stanchions fork, rear shocks with piggybacks, enduro tires. You could definitely build a mid travel Burly bike.
bumped my Yeti SB 5.5 up to a Fox 38x170 and have burly wheels on it. Looking to get an insanely light (but tough) wheel set with light trail tires on it so it’s more fun on my local trails that I usually ride my SS hard tail (160mm Ohlins coil) on. I love tweaking my bikes to fit my terrain and riding style. the companies have to cater to sales volume so they generally don’t excel in specific areas within their product lineups
I've just finished exactly that build. SC Hightower frame (so 145mm shock) but Fox 36 160mm, Hope Tech 4 E4 brakes (200F/180R), DT Swiss XMC 1501 wheels, 180mm dropper, SRAM AXS X01 drivetrain. Minion DHR II front and back. Very much in the All Mountain box, but it weighs exactly 14kg inc pedals, so it's a great trail bike that can also get me down anything without big drops (or anything within my ability!!). I love it.
@@SprSonik13I'd definitely recommend the DT Swiss XMC 1501 wheels if they're in your budget. Just over 1500g for the pair, but All Mountain rated. I love them (altho the DT Swiss 240 hubs are a bit loud).
I did this on both my previous bikes which weren't enduro bikes. My Giant Trance had SLX 2 pots, 203mm rotor up front, front travel extended to 160mm and Assegai/Dissector tire combo. My Ibis Ripmo had a set of DT Swiss FR560 wheels (got tired of killing Ibis rims), XT 4 pots with 203mm rotors at both ends, cascade link, DVO Onyx fork, and cushcore out back. Each was fun in its own way, the Giant was a great little jumper but too short and outdated geo for steep tech. The Ripmo just did everything pretty well and was fairly confident on steep tech. I now have a full on 160/170 travel enduro bike and the difference on faster terrain is night and day even vs the 151/160 travel Ibis. The Ripmo felt fine on big bike terrain, but the enduro bike feels like an absolute weapon on the same terrain.
I’m over 50 and I need 300mm travel front and rear for my Florida trails lol
This one made me chuckle
seems the only way to truly compare is to run the same wheels and tires on the trail in Enduro bikes. That way you’re seeing the differences purely from the frame/suspension. I used to run a heavy, aggressive, tire wheel set and a light fast tire wheel set on the same bike, and it completely changed the bike. I went from a fleet of bikes down to one aggressive hard tail and one big trail bike when I realized that wheel entire selection made much more difference than 20 mm of travel and 1/2 degree in the head tube
Fair to say Dyfi isn't a great barometer of under vs over biked. That's the bike park that has developed a reputation for being unrideable by anyone short of a pro (most of its trails are pro lines). My current bike is a RM Altitude, yes it's a proper enduro bike, but manages to be more lively even on blue trails and more comfortable for big pedal days than the Ibis Ripmo I had before it. It's unreal ability to carry speed makes even blue trails fun on it, because you start railing corners and try to send it off every rock and root. The plush ride of the enduro bike is also nice for comfort, especially when you're not in your 20s or 30s anymore.
I'd probably question whether a less experienced rider (like myself!) would feel a significant difference between a trail and enduro bike. It'd probably be interesting seeing a few new-ish riders out on a range of bikes and seeing their takes on them, as a lot of newer riders probably only have experience of hardtails
Probably not, because you’re likely to be riding both well within their capabilities. The trail bike would be nicer to pedal uphill.
Imho the biggest difference in feel comes down to tyrechoice.
Put a heavy DD casing for aggressive riding on your trailbike and it will feel heavy and slow on the uphill and grippy/more secure on the downhill.
Using the same tyre combo on a trail vs a (non-extreme) enduro bike shouldn't make much of a difference, unless you are racing. The 20mm difference on the suspension might help an inexperienced rider on some line choice mistakes/sloppy jumping, but the difference would be negligible, because you're not riding as fast and/or in as technical challenging terrain as a beginner.
I.e. pick the bike that is tailored to the stuff you'll be riding on a regular basis; most of the full suspension bikes nowadays are capable enough, even the short travel models, and the deciding factor is the person riding the bike.
Look at a modern enduro bike as a downhill bike that you can pedal uphill. So unless you have the abilities and skills / confidence to ride pretty challenging trails e.g. the Slab Track at Dyfi then you don't really need an enduro. If you are less experienced and ride an enduro bike it's going to be pretty dead and unchallenging for you. If you started with a trail bike then hit a point where you wanted to go further and the bike is holding you back, then maybe consider an enduro rig.
You definitely feel the difference, I’m not a pro but can definitely feel the difference between bikes and use the ones I’ve got for their intended style… usually…😬
For a new-ish rider on green/blue trails without a lot of fast downhill an enduro bike will probably feel big and ponderous. but they will feel very confident on downhill tech. If you're at the point where you're leaning the bike over to corner, are comfortable with jumping and are already pumping the bike on trail features even on regular trails, then you might be able to get some speed out of an enduro bike to the point where it comes alive.
I’m an older riders with a great deal of experience, in my case mostly off-road motorcycle racing, but have ridden bikes for decades and stayed pretty darned fit. Guys like me will trade off the extra thrill of a lighter, livelier bike for the extra control/safety of a more capable bike. Turning the pedals has never been my problem. Avoiding crashes and injury are very important. So yeah, I’ll work a little harder and perhaps arrive a little later but I want to get there in one piece no matter what the terrain offers up. I’m riding a Specialized Stumpjumper Evo expert with 150/160mm travel and don’t find it at all unmanageable. I’m 73yrs, 169mm and 61 kilos.
Not that I expect anybody to care, but most riders would be better off “over biked”. Not having enough fun and thrills?? Then just go faster…
Well that is respect. I hope your joints stay in a very good condition as long as they can. 😅
would love to see how a short travel vs long travel version of the same bike compare. The Canyon Spectral comes in 150 and 125 versions.
I rode my Whyte T-140 down those exact trails; never once did I feel out of my depth, but I would have been happier on an enduro bike
If you're confident on Dyfi trails, then you're well above the skill level of the average rider. So you're probably one of those who likes to ride underbiked for the challenge.
150/160mm is a trail bike now?!
That's what I said, LOL. My trail is 130/140, enduro is 160/170
Yep, not a good video, 150/160 isn't a short travel trail bike
yeah my trail is 140/140
150/160 is definitely an enduro by my standard
Canyon categorizes the Spectral as enduro!
The don's the best gmbn presenter in my opinion , always solid content and no childish nonsense like the other presenters are getting into more and more .
In the last 4 years the definition of each categories has increased by 10-20mm across the board.
I remember when everyone thought the Norco sight was an enduro bike.
I ride a 150/140 Trek Fuel EX, it gives me plenty of travel for chunk but I can flip the Minot link and adjust the compression settings on days when I’m just doing XC riding with my wife(she’s 120/120)…it works well for me and my 56 year old knees.
As an older rider, I chose to go with something that would protect my joints with a smoother ride. I went with 160/140 on the analog bike and 150/150 on the ebike. I ride techy trails, bike parks, and pump tracks. I'm just starting to get a little air and doing small drops. The analog weighs 34 lbs and the ebike weighs 50 lbs. I've had lighter bikes. But, I don't mind the extra weight versus less suspension.
Third. I prefer to be over biked so I can take those big hits without bottoming out
I went from a 160mm/140mm 29'r to a 150/130mm 27.5 and am way happier. The 29'r was a monster truck and could just mow things over but the shorter travel 27.5 is just more fun to ride. Even though you have to be a bit more selective on lines, that actually kinda adds to the enjoyment. You have to hop around its a challenge.
The old bike might have been faster going down but thats not really what I am after.
I switched from 27,5 to a mullet and its much better now on the chunk, but on jumps the front needs to be pulled more because the weight drags it down. I did have a 29er a couple of years ago and I agree what you say. Even though im 6 ft 2. Any tight corners were much harder and while doing bunny hop it felt forever to pull off. Jumping was so weird.
Well done, I agree with what you said BUT you should do the same test on a more "natural" set of trails where pedalling is more prominent
I'm just happy to see a GMBN video where the presenter is wearing protective gear appropriate for the terrain being ridden, rather than the bike they're on.
I take my Enduro bike to the Swiss Alps, but for the local hills at home I take my hardtail. Enduro bike is totally over biked for the local trails and the soft compound tires suck the life out of me on the uphill 😆
Interesting subject, even after almost 30 years practicing mtb. I personaly have often been overbiked. Last example was my Rocky Altitude. I felt confident but after 3 hours riding with my friends, I was always exhausted, My actual bike is an Orange Stage Evo, just a 130/120 travel. But I really prefer this one. It is much more dynamic, so I am less tired during long rides. And when I go in the mountains, I still have plenty of sensentions. So my advise will be: Buy the good bike for your local trails, not for those you ride twice a year.
150mm fork with 35 or 36 mm stanchions and a 140 mm rear is my sweet spot for a trail bike. Put some better tires on the Spectral and i bet the times are the same as the enduro bike.
Ive never had more than 100mm on any of my bikes and I seem to be going as fast as anyone else. I prefer light and fast to heavy and more sus. On the trails I ride its more than enough. Im actually building a Sworks epic frame up that only has 95mm rear travel.
Steep head angles dont bother me either. Ive been riding 33 years so im used to it.
Nice comparison Neil. Your attention to important details was excellent. I would probably 'over-tire' my 160/150 travel trail bike to address such trail conditions.
150/160 travel bikes can ride pretty much anything an enduro bike can, just a little slower and with a less smooth ride. I rode an Ibis Ripmo for 3 years and basically had DH wheels on it (DT Swiss FR560s) and then ran EXO+ tires with a cush core out back. Used it on everything from pedally XC trails to bike park days, it did the job though the 38lb weight wasn't conducive to going up and the ride got chattery at the bike park when the speeds came up. I now ride a 160/170 travel enduro bike and it's faster, more confident and more comfortable and weighs 4lbs less. I would generally recommend an enduro tire setup on a 150/160 travel bike since the travel and geo will let you do big bike things on it.
Fun wins out over what the clock says unless racing. Personally I prefer the extra margin a DH bike gives me.
Overbiked all the way for me! It gives you a bit of room for error, it you do go off line and take a big compression you’ve got the travel to take the hit if you’ve got less travel your going to feel it! My bikes saved me countless times!😂
Not much, mine is 120 rear 130 front, and it handles everything just fine, including double black downhill bike park tracks, suspension travel along with head angle has mostly become a sales pitch by manufacturers to try and convince people to buy new bikes.
Exactly! That’s a trail bike , not an enduro light!
@@rubberside3969 i think it just comes down to riding style. if you like to ride slow and pick your way through stuff it doesnt matter, but those things start to become very noticeable when youre blasting through chunk
@@sam61480 Depends on the trails too. You can defintiely pick your way down a double black DH track, if the trail can be ridden that slowly. Example, in Moab you can ride the double black trail Captain Ahab on pretty much anything since it's mostly super grippy slickrock which can be ridden as slow as you like. Try that on Top of the World in Whistler and you're going off a cliff, Whistler rock is not grippy at all and you MUST go fast down rocky sections in Whistler or you're going to end up in a slide and crashing.
Was good to have a chat with you on the day bud, really interesting look at riding Iv done similar as I had a polygon Siskiu D5 now riding a specialized BIGHIT 1 with tripples I’m definitely over biked now but feels so much more comfortable at DYFi.
I ride my aluminum 27.5 spectral EVERYWHERE and I absolutely love it. But It’s more of an enduro bike then trail bike for sure.
I’ve been lucky enough in my job to try a variety of bikes in the last 3 years. The bike I actually own is a 2021 Giant Trance 29er with 115mm rear travel and a 130mm fork. That’s had a set of 27.5 wheels on it for the last year to make it even more playful. Through work I’ve tried both the Gen 1 Levo SL Comp Carbon (full 29er, 150mm travel all round) and now the Levo SL2 Comp Alloy (mullet wheels, 150mm rear travel, 160mm fork and a burlier build kit than its predecessor) and also a Specialized Enduro Expert which is full 29er and 170mm travel all round with a coil shock.
I found the 1st Gen Levo SL to be a lot of fun, but under equipped for the level of travel with a Fox 34 and a Fox Float DPS. It didn’t feel any faster than my shorter travel Giant but had a similar ride feel.
The Levo SL2 feels more like a 150/160mm bike should thanks to the burlier Fox 36 and the Float X rear shock. The mullet wheels help it to stay playful and nimble.
The Enduro was a tank. Far too much bike for what I ride most. Great through fast open sections with chunky rocks and roots but it took some effort to get it to corner well on slower more technical bits. I also struggled to manipulate it in the air due to its sheer size. All 4 of the bikes have been size Medium or S3 in Specialized S sizing.
Long story short, I’ve always come back to the short travel Giant and fallen back in love with it every time I’ve ridden it after spending time on something bigger. It’s done things that are way out of its depth and it’s been set up stiff with the most volume spacers in the fork and shock so it’s a rocket ship to pedal and doesn’t blow through its travel on big hits. So my personal conclusion is I like being under biked. Maybe because I come from BMX and dirt jump bikes and my formative years of mtb riding were all done on a singlespeed dirt jumper with only a rear brake. I used to ride everything on that. Skateparks, dirt jumps, downhill/freeride style stuff and singletrack trails in the woods. I’d just adjust the forks to be stiffer or softer depending on what I was riding that day and maybe swap out the tyres to something more or less knobby and run higher or lower pressures depending on the terrain. Those were some of the most fun times I’ve had on a bike and most of the time it was entirely the wrong bike for the job.
Great video. I know what you mean about people naturally overbike. I did this with my previous bike, a Norco Range Carbon. Now I’m on a Santa Cruz tallboy which has a lot less travel and it fits my riding better. 😊
What I've been learning is that being over biked or underbiked sucks. Having the right bike for the job is where it's at. A 2 bike quiver with a short travel trail and enduro bike is where it's at.
I would say enduro and dh bike would be the best. Like canyon strive and sender duo. 😂
I agrée about buying for what you want to be riding. I should probably have gotten a long travel, full sus XC bike rather tu an a trail bike, but I love riding my trail bike so much and I can take it on everything I want to ride. Seem to be the conclusion of Neil’s video really is, you are fastest on what you are most confident on !
Spectral 29 is a pure enduro bike, Spectral 125 and Neuron are trail bikes ;)
As someone who rides an enduro bike and has previously owned an Ibis Ripmo and a trail bike before that, no a 150 travel bike is not an enduro bike. 150 travel is usually called "All Mountain" as they kinda fit between trail and enduro. Once the speeds come up even that 10mm difference in travel between a 150/160 bike and a 160/170 bike becomes very apparent. The enduro bike is just on another level in terms of stability and ability to carry speed, they also tend to corner better than trail/AM bikes. At slow speeds though, the enduro bike might feel a little lifeless.
If you consider things from purely Enduro racing, sure, however for most users it's not a trail bike, it is even listed under the enduro category on the website.
I used to think 160 is sweet spot, but since getting myself a 180 enduro bike I love how plush it feels.
comes down to the individual bike too. My current bike is 160/170 travel and feels more plush than some bigger bikes I've ridden. Though that comes down to a suspension setup that works particularly well for heavy riders, the back end has 42% progression curve which lets me run the shock quite linear (I'm 250lbs and am running zero spacers in the X2 for normal trails and only 1 spacer for bike park) while still having good bottom out resistance.
I consider 150/160 enduro. My trail bike is 115/130.
That's xc these days 😜
In theory this all holds up enough, but I have both a short travel trail bike and then a kind of medium travel Enduro bike. The ladder has industry. Non-wheels is fully carbon has a good drivetrain, has great suspension. It's hard not to ride my favorite bike even if it is a little much for the trails
100 mm xc hardtails for everything that i ride whitout a dropper.
Makes me glad I "overbiked" and bought the Polygon N7 this Christmas as a beginner. I was worried I would enjoy the T8 more when I made the purchase (I definitely enjoy the paint more on the T8). So far I like the N7 though, just need to get more confident and in better shape to start tackling the uphills so I can have some fun on the downhills. Also very hard to compare them when I've never touched a T8.
Most people are overbiked at the parks, nobody really wants to face the fact they’d be more efficient on a hardtail down the green runs.
Maybe there not bothered about being efficient, not everyone is chasing times trying to get miles done quick. Some people are just destressing in comfort and keeping fit some are just having fun. Ride what you like to ride I say
I went through a lot of bikes when I first started, something like 6 in 2 years. Everything from a cross country to a GT Fury DH. Multiple reasons why, mostly a lack of knowledge. However what I learnt was that the downhill bike gave me confidence to try obstacles that I never would have looked at on a cross country. It was massively overkill in hindsight, but it bought confidence. I’ve settled on a Specialized Levo SL enduro with Fox 38s (180mm travel) which still gives me a huge amount of confidence in the bike, but a more nimble and versatile bike over a DH especially. I went ebike because I had a baby and can’t maintain my fitness like I used to. 😂
My personal thought:
I love my enduro bike and wouldn't give it up for any money in the world ( Custom Nomad V4 )! Nevertheless, I have to and want to say that even trail bikes are so incredibly capable. With just a few adjustments and tweaks, you can build yourself a "mini enduro". Especially when it comes to suspension settings and tyre choice, you can create so much support even for very rough trails. And 150 mm of suspension travel is in no way "short travel". What is certain, however, is that an enduro bike has even more reserves and is therefore more forgiving of riding errors. But I think that for the masses, a well-built trail bike is sufficient overall, as the range of use can be so widely diversified.
On the other hand, you can see (excuse the expression) how pointless a downhill bike is these days.
But hey, the bottom line is that we all want to have as much fun as possible on the trails!
It also comes down to how the kinematics of the bike favor certain riding styles. To use other SC bikes for an example, the Hightower is a wonderfully poppy and playful rowdy trail bike, but would be out of its element being a "mini enduro" bike. For comparison the Transition Sentinel is the very definition of a "mini enduro" bike, it's much more of a stable, planted speed demon. The Ibis Ripmo sort of splits the difference, but leans more towards the enduro side and feels more sorted doing big bike things than the Hightower, the Ripmo that I rode for 3 years was set up like a mini-enduro and it didn't do half bad in that setup. All 3 bikes fall into that 150 travel class.
I am riding a 160/160 Enduro Bike but with relatively fast rolling tires. Currently on trail casing Vittoria Martello (fr) Aggaro (re). Guess you could say the bike is undertired ;) For how I use it I find that´s a pretty good compromise though. Normally riding a mix of longer distance touring on natural trails /singletrack for which a short travel trail bike would be more appropriate and a good bit of bikepark where the extra suspension travel and burlier frame are nice for jumps and drops but the trails are mostly hardpack. I am giving up a bit of all out grip but with the faster rolling tires I don´t find much difference in terms of efficiency compared to a shorter travel bike.
Neil's riding is so smooth and dialled its like a dolphin mated with a clock and the offspring was bought up by a ballerina
Neil gets it
i've thought about getting a slopestyle bike for my intermediate riding where i want a bit more than a hardtail but not quite a "real" full sus. Even my enduro is just an over-built trail bike (140/140)
Slopestyle bikes are kinda niche though. Maybe worth it if you spend all day on jump lines, not great for riding trails.
I'd do all that on a 120/120 no problem at all whilst watching all the doctors and dentists bobbing along on big travel e-mtb's :p
i ride now way overbuilt dh bike but the one i always dreamt of and couldnt afford it earlier when i was more fit for that sport. i dont regret buying it since its way more comfy then my previous bike but i fear im being laughed at riding such a great bike the way i do. i try to tell myself that noone should be shamed for trying what they dreamt of as long as its doing no harm to anyone. i had a pretty bad crash some time ago and still recovering from trauma and the dream bike i have now is giving me courage and 'insurance' to train and 'git good'. one other point is that as long as you enjoy your bike does it matter if you are a bit slower than others? chill, have fun, stay safe and appreciate all bikes : )
I rode Revelstoke BC on my XC hardtail with Fox float 32s. Might have rattled my chops, but I shredded with the rest of the guys just fine. Didn't drop my chain once!
I’m mostly on a full 29er trail bike with 150/160 and 63.5 head angle. I feel like it’s the sweet spot for pretty much all terrain. My e bike is a mullet 140/160 with 65 head angle which surprisingly feels almost identical. Only the front wheel is slightly more temperamental on high speed flow trails, meaning more attention to weight distribution is needed. But it works really well on steep tech and jumps.
Sort of in the realm of Ferrari, Porche, or Corvette.
Cars for the track, used on public roads, similarly some mountain bikes are done up, great forks, awesome suspension and are only utilized for gravel trails.
However, nice to know there is the capability for knarly adventures should the opportunity arrive, or one travels to some exotic bike terrain.
Cheers!
If the bike is fitted for me I would definitely go with more suspension travel than not !
At the age of 59, I have just gone and brought an Enduro bike, and sold my trail bike. A couple of things to note, I do have an E-bike as well, so most of the Enduro bike use will be at bike parks. I have ridden one of my older XC bikes at bike parks, and completely wrecked my back shock 3 times (it didn't like high speed braking bumps 😞) Enduro or Trail should cover must peoples uses.
I ended up overbiked. I had 8 years without riding (even then I'd had that bike for years) then decided to get back into it. Discovered I didn't know what I was looking at. After asking around settled on a norco torrent (150mm hardtail). Found that on the tracks near me with the people I ride with, that is too much bike, so ended up buying an XC bike, which I love and suits me most of the time. If I could do over I'd probably buy a 120 or 130mm travel bike instead.
I ride a bike with 160 / 150 travel and 27.5 x 2.60 tires... I am really old. I have my son drop me off at the top of the run and then I plummet to the bottom (no need to do any climbing). He then picks me up at the parking lot below and we go get Pizza and Beer. This is the best MTB day you can have!
I think you need to expand this. Take the same three bikes and do a standard trail ride, throw in some uphills. Then do all three on a downhill trail, safely.
150/160 for underbiked? Lol. That’s an all mountain bike- should be able to handle that trail and more just fine. I know, it’s what I ride. Would like to have seen a 120/130 bike for the underbiked bike- something like the Ibis Ripley or SC Tallboy. Because IMO geo and the linkage is so much more important than just amount of travel. Longer, slacker, tougher components (like a 36 or Lyric) with a linkage that doesn’t have a quick harsh bottom out on a shorter travel bike will let that bike go much bigger. Likewise, the opposite on a longer travel bike is still gonna feel sketch at 35 mph through gnar. And since most bikes are built with short seat tubes you can size up or down to get your preferred geo on a bike with any amount of travel, so you really can build exactly the bike you want. Even two of the same model bikes will feel different and handle different stuff better depending on how they are built.
I just bought a manitou mezzer so I guess I'll be able to easily figure it out!
the ideal travel to me is 170 front and 160 rear for what I do and ride
I’m getting old but went the other way. I used to ride the big travel enduro bikes, then went to the Spectral and now I’ve gone even smaller on the Reactor. Just got tired of peddling big bikes around and like the fast and fun days
First of all, I'm 54, and bones don't mend as quick as they do in your twenties.
I've just bought a YT Izzo, which many would consider to be underbiked. I think it will be a whole lotta fun, without the potential consequences of getting it wrong.
In my 30's, I had an MGB GT. Going 60 miles an hour was living on the edge, way more so than going 120 in an Audi 10 years later.
That's why I prefer to underbike...
Jumped on a 150/140mm trail bike a couple of years ago and was amazed how capable it was compared to my HT with no dropper. Didn't think I was over or under biked at any point made everything feel easy and gave me room for progression and try increasingly tough things. After these couple of years I'm now faster and harder on the bike and I'm starting to feel under biked. Needed more travel for the hits, slacker steering to reduce the nervousness on higher speeds, etc. I'm guessing the kind of bike you need should be appropriate to your skill level but allow a bit of room for progression.
I find myself riding my Commencal Tempo more than my Stumpy Evo. It makes the more mundane trails way more interesting
This needs to be redone on a trail that isn't shuttled, I saw almost no pedaling.
Just 10 years ago, 150/160 was enduro…130/140 trail…120mm below cross country. And 26” was still the standard. With 29ers all those numbers shrunk early on..now they are huge…170mm enduro??! Rampage was ridden like that some years.
When I got my first “real” bike, it was a 2018 Hightower (specifically after watching the gmbn tech episode that featured it). I didn’t think I’d ever be able to jump, drop, or ride anything chunky, even though I wanted to. After only a year, I tried my hand at a few downhill tracks and quickly realized how underbiked I was. A little over a year ago, I picked up a 2018 yt Capra and it’s made all the difference on dh days. I chose not to go with a full dh bike though because I don’t think I’ll ever be able to jump or drop anything big enough, or ride anything chunky enough to need it, even though I want to….. wait a sec, did that last bit sound familiar?
Canyon and most other brands put the 150 bikes under the trail category. There is quite a big difference between a race bred 170 and a trail oriented 150. Swapping from a spec enduro to a stumpjunper evo was quite a change. Local terrain also dictates whether you see a 130 vs 150 bike as a trail bike.
It's worth noting I can put down similar times on the stump jumper compared to old times on the enduro, but the ride quality, kinematic feel, and the ability to hit true enduro runs consecutively are noticeably different.
It can depend where you are in your biking journey too, you might go bigger as a newer rider fot the stability, and the longevity of use in a bike as you learn. Like getting a school sweater 2 sizes too big... You can grow into it ;) still a big purchase getting a bike and this was certainly something I considered and don't regret it at all.
Average rider here…I had a Canyon Spectral and for anyone who wants one bike it’s great. I did a week of switching from DH with a lift, Enduro race trials and basic trails. It was able to do them all but I came away with that weekend is I need 2 bikes…Short travel trial and a proper Enduro. DH trial at speed over really techy sections felt a little sketchy and in regular trials a big heavy’ish bike wears you out after a while.
49 years old and been riding cheap hardtails forever but am going for an enduro now.
Underbiked HT all day. Pain is gain lol
Les Gets with my HT, some people just shook their heads in disbelief 😅
I too hate having ankles
Spectral “short travel”???!! I’m fairly sure Ritchie Rude rode a Yeti SB150 on the EWS…fairly sure he won a few too! Wouldn’t necessarily call a 150mm travel bike “short travel”…unless of course the frames of reference have shifted (appreciate Yeti now have the SB160 replacing the SB150)…
Is it “marketing”? I say just ride what works for you!!
The giant slacked out sled bikes don't win EWS/EDR races, but only pros are going to be able to push a smaller bike THAT hard on that type of terrain. The giant slack bikes let us mere mortals ride really rowdy trails with more confidence and less chance of ending up in hospital.
Also bike travel depends on the style of riding of the rider. Some guys might be more smooth riding down and others might like to play more with the bike and ride the same trails demanding that extra of the bike on purpose. My best friend, rides a 29" hardtail with 140 mm in the same trails we ride together, and we're pretty much equally fast. He rides pretty smooth and stable, Myself on the other hand, i ride a 27,5 170mm front-150mm back very aggressively and i am always popping out of roots, and rocks, doing gaps, and tacking the straightest lines through the trails that i can which ends up demanding more of my bike. Since i use all the travel and bike suspensions are properly set up to our weights. Have a nice day guys
Would LOVE to see you guys make a video comparing what you think are the top five 27.5 hard tails. Who’s with me? Really wish Trek kept the Roscoe a 27.5
Or maybe even your top 27.5 or mixed wheel HT’s (including Blake’s beloved Nukeproof Scout, of course) up against the new generation Roscoe with its 29’s. Would love a reason to pick up something other than another Roscoe for my new HT in spring. Enlighten us 🤘🏼
Awesome skills my friend!
I think many beginner riders overspend on high bikes that they don't need. I live in Mexico and I see many beginners or those that rider every other week once on bikes and e-bikes worth a car yet they do not need it but are sold the lie that they need it. Unfortunately MTB prices are high to begin with in my country....but people here use creditcards or cash on 3-5k bikes when its not necessary. And the secondhand market here is sheist. I bought a secondhand GIant Trance X 2 (2021) but after a year of riding I feel I have out ride the bike to its maximum potential. Ive upgraded the 150 rockshox pike select to 160 with a cost efficient debon air upgrade (20 EUR)....changed the derraileur from SLX to XT because the SLX was bended...rear rotor from Deore 160 to XT 203...and shifter slx to XT....all from parts bought through Aliexpress to save money...either way the Giant is too small for me...its a size L and im 180 cm and it falls medium...its very playful but where i live its trail/enduro with steep rocky parts so time to upgrade and invest in a 3k bike...either Propain, YT, Canyon...
I'd love to see a Jones LWB in a comparison like this, but mostly just to see where it would fall. While having no suspension they do surprisingly well in technical terrain and single track - far better than you'd expect for such a rigid bike. Not saying it would win any of these categories. Honestly I am just curious in an apple to apples comparison.
Underbiked is the way to go. I don't like dead feeling longer travel bikes. New XC suspensions work so well
normally ride a Whyte t130 at 150mm
on a demo day I rode a Whyte E180, I wasn't just quicker where the E helps I was so much quicker on everything.
conclusion, over biking helps low skilled riders
would love to see this again with a wobbler like myself
So e bikes have a little secret, all that extra weight of the battery, nice and low in the bottom tube ... makes the bike a lot more stable. It also damps the ride a bit so even with more basic suspension they ride quite smooth.
Probably something in that as I also rode a Megatower before the E180 which I hated and was very slow on.
So much bike for what is effectively a family friendly xc loop I wore myself out on the flats and climbs so had nothing left for the downs.
Also tried the Whyte E160 and didn't feel any quicker on the non E bits than my own 130.
That Rallon is such a sweet plow. If only they were a bit cheaper, though.
This was a really cool video, and I think it made great points and I took a lot away from it. I would agree with the rest of the comments that a 150/160 is not really "short travel" and maybe the spectral 125 would have been a better comparison.
I was hoping to see a gravel bike thrown into the test haha 💀
Are you trying to send Neil to hospital haha
I rock under or over-biked with a rigid ss or a 200/165 freeride machine. Its fun to be spicy on xc to enduro on the ss XD
gotta do the uphill climbing times!!!!
I think we all overbike at the beginning, then when we realise we’re not world champions, we realise we’ve actually overbiked… personally I think underbiking helps you progress more quickly.
The right bike will always be optimal but in my experience being overbiked is just bland and boring because the suspension dulls the trail too much, while being underbiked is a ton of fun and very good skill training. I took my sc 5010 (130/140mm playbike) to the bikepark a couple of weeks ago. The more choppy/rooty trails would have been considerably faster on my nomad but on jumps or steep tech stuff it’s a blast. Bike and body did take a beating though so it does come at a cost.
I got an enduro bike. It works for just about everything and I'm not racing anybody ever
I do literally EVERYTHING with my aggressive hardtail that’s got 160 up front
I only have a hardtail with 130 forks, I'm super underbiked but whatever its still overbiked for trails compared to my BMX so whatever, I'll send it down what I can, if I cant get down something with my hardtail I probably wouldnt attempt it with an enduro either, I've seen plenty of trails with stuff so steep I dont understand how anyone rides down that stuff on any bike, it sucks walking down when your already part way into a trail that you didnt anticipate having a garbage section part way through but it is what it is, no bike can save you from breaking your neck.
Now you should do the same comparison on local pedals trails which is the he majority of riders would use it
Let's see how riders feel into their 40's and 50's riding gnarly dh and big jumps on 140mm. Something that's not discussed is wear and tear on the body, that the DH bikes and dual crown forks absorb more of. Yes, not as playful, but you can ride for longer periods with less damage to your joints. Also, it's not the travel, but the torsional rigidity that a dual crown fork offers when you ping your front tire off things sideways. Just my 2 cents...
The playful part comes down to kinematics more than travel. I've ridden DH bikes that jump better than nearly any trail bike. And I've ridden trail bikes that are hard to get into the air.
I bought the canyon spectral as well, after 2 years of riding it, wished I'd bought strive. Overbiked for sure
Would have been a nice touch if you’d also done a climbing comparison, most real world riding doesn’t have an uplift. We all want to drop fast n fun but the bike we choose to ride will always be a compromise.