FM23 Mentoring Analysis
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ส.ค. 2024
- Link for Excel file on Dropbox:
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Link for the Test League savefile used in the video:
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Thumbnail made by Lucas. Check out Lucas's Behance page:
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Oh! I actually can maybe give something back to EBFM and this community after all his great videos!
Max, my current long term FM23 save is a save I called the Model Citizen Project. Basically trying to get a team of Model Citizens and use them, and mentoring, to make more Model Citizens, and eventually everyone would be. So naturally, I've been dealing with mentoring a lot. I chose Barcelona as they have intriguing young talents and I like the club, but more importantly, they have a fully playable B Team I can also control the mentoring of, giving me a lot more spots to work with. I've been playing with the editor on, exclusively to record changes in hidden attributes.
I am in agreement with your summary items but can add to some of them, CA/attribute development is not directly impacted (a higher crossing mentor will not raise a mentee's crossing), but interestingly player traits are passed through mentoring. (Not sure how to test this but, in fact it seems to me they are passed quite rapidly, faster than training it.) Ambition, Loyalty, Pressure, Professionalism, Sportsmanship are affected as you say. But also Determination, Controversy, and Adaptability, at least., The game will explicitly tell you this in the "Mentoring Month in Review" email where it will note changes in these attributes, and I've confirmed them in the editor. I don't know about consistency, dirtiness or versatility.
To discuss around your points in 3 and 4, I want to talk about two things, first, Team Hierarchy. The higher the player is in that, the more "Estimated Influence on Group" they have, and that is pretty important. How that Hierarchy works would probably need a couple videos of its own, but it's pretty intuitive, higher team importance (playing time), longer time at the club, captaincy (or vice) status, and ability all effect it. High leadership also seems to put you higher on that Hierarchy, but it is not required to even reach as high as Team Leader. (So a player with higher leadership may be higher on the hierarchy and therefore have more influence and therefore be a more effective mentor, but it's not required at all. This may also be part of the low CA mentor results, they just don't matter enough to impact mentees.)
Second thing, what I and the game (kinda) calls "general character of the squad" - the game has this concept it mentions sometimes and it absolutely affects hidden attributes. As far as I can tell it is a weighted average - weighted by position in the Hierarchy - that impacts every player on the squad - even older players. What I am not sure of is exactly what is affected, it seems like every hidden attribute, but it's super noticeable with professionalism and determination, they move the quickest/most. Presumably this can work with or against mentoring, but mentoring is definitely way more impactful on a mentee. It definitely feels like it pops up more to me on players I don't have in any mentoring group, but that's not tested or confirmed in any meaningful way. This "general character of the squad" is probably why Tel/Wanner were losing Spor and Temp even without mentoring - Bayern's general character (heavily impacted by Kimmich who is almost certainly a Team Leader) has lower values for those than those players start with.
Finally, on Vidović not growing. So, the game, in my monthly meetings, is opposed with telling me what mentoring groups are best for the players. The game (via the coach giving feedback at meetings) has really strong opinions on this. As background, I initially sorted my mentoring structure around making sure no one lost any (hidden) attributes points - if you were better than your mentor I didn't put you there (to avoid situations like Kimmich causing Tel/Wainer to lose those points) and the game hated all my groups. After really examing why the game recommends mentoring groups, it cares a lot about... (one or both of) citizenship and language. I can't tell exactly which, but it loved to put, say, Zaire-Emery (French PSG wonderkid) in my group led by N'golo Kante. Similarly, Spanish players together, English players together. But what's weird is... it doesn't always do this - I've had it recommend pulling a Spanish player out of a group with other Spanish players to put them with a Dutch player, so, it's not the only thing the game cares about. There is some other "fit" metric between mentor and mentee. Now, I believe Vidović starts the game speaking fluent German, has secondary German citizenship, and so should be just fine with Kimmich... but maybe this "fit" issue is at play here.
Finally, what I am currently super interested in is how really low professionalism in the mentee impacts the... impacts of mentoring. In the save I saw an awesome prospect with just 5 professionalism, and generally bad hidden attributes overall. I put him in the best mentoring group possible. And he went up... just a bit, 3 points overall, 1 Prof, 1 Det, 1 Spor. I've had other players go up that much in a month. So. That's a current area of interest.
If anyone reads this far, thanks so much for getting through it, I tried to keep it pretty brief actually, I've been thinking about this every day for about 6 months so I have a lot of thoughts and insights and examples.
Ebfm sidekick. Wonderful insight
This is exactly how I play and everything you said happened to me. This is an awesome feeling. I was thinking about writing a comment with some notes of mine but yours did the trick plus some. What a great guy
Traits are actually passed faster than in training, traits can also be "plays one-twos" which can be passed around faster in a group full of players from the same position
It can be the one who says the player will retire at the top or the will play into his 40s, that always come from a mentor 35+yo CB
Don't ask me why, I've only rarely seen it come from a CM or ST.
If you put wonderkids from abroad in a mentoring group with a leader or influential player in the squad that speaks his language, his adaptability will be maximised. He'll also belong to the core group quite earlier.
You’re doing god’s work sir
What if this is the work of the devil?
he'd be contacted and offered a job by either the Glazer or Gerry Cardinale @@NJ_Random edit: really cool playlist dude
You can mentor U18s and U21s using your first team players by adding the young players to your first team units section. Click Training, then Units, then add the desired players to your first team training units. Next, in Mentoring, tell your AM to assign mentoring groups (this is the only way the young players can come in to first team mentoring groups), and if you don't like the mentors assigned, remove them and use different ones, keeping your young players in their groups.
then you might aswell add them to the first team squad, seeing as they are ganna be training with them anyway
That's a neat trick, kudos for sharing!
then they wouldnt play games, thats why there CA didnt go up@@DanTempleman
It's been said that moving youngsters to the first team for mentoring isn't ideal for their development due to loss of youth training
also the impact of mentoring from my experience over a year or two has been weak to say the least
I find you can manually add them once they are assigned a place in the current first team match day squad. I.e. Add the young players to the first team training units, then give them the 12th / 13th / 14th / 15th spaces in the match squad (whilst still being in youth team). Click continue once and you can manually add to mentoring. When you then remove them from the match day squad, they stay in the mentoring groups.
Surprised you didn't mention traits, I often use mentoring as a quick way to add traits.
This is also related to positions, although it makes no difference in the personality attributes, I still wouldn't want Tel to get the 'dictates tempo' trait. Great video!!
Hey bud, I didn't test Player Traits, partly because it's difficult to know exactly when to stop the simulation, which means it is difficult to record the exact amount of time required for players to learn new traits. The information provided by the developers does mention that Player Traits are passed during mentoring.
The more important question is this: do Player Traits actually matter? 🤔 A possible research topic for FM24.
@@ebfm That would be awesome, to know attributes priority for each position and what traits suit them. If they do work.
Traits also get passed quickly from veteran players to veteran players. Even players in their 30s will learn new traits.
Remember mentoring also propagates traits. Even if mentoring does nothing it can quickly pass traits
Discovering your channel earlier this year was a delight. Your videos aren't just informative and well-presented; they're meticulously structured at an extraordinary level, providing benefit. I want to express my gratitude for your dedicated efforts in analyzing and elucidating the phenomenon we're all grappling with. A massive thank you. Enjoy your break, and return with even greater strength.
Oh, btw please don't change the music, it really nails our mood enjoying your content.
- David
Thanks mate. I will have to change to a different music though because my subscription with Epidemic Music (provider of copyright-free music) has expired 😅
Another thing that is really important is the social group, I've had mentees dropping attributes even tho they have great mentors because they were in different social groups and another mentee from their social groups was rubbing their bad mentals on him
Thank you for all of your contributions to the FM community.
Just wanna say "thank you". Have a good rest. Most importantly, just do/test what you like to do/test in the game. The requests are numerous, and there is only one "you".
I am dropping the game (and picking up Dynasty Warrior 5) for a while. When I had to resort to Save/Load(ing for 20-50 times?) for a 5* kid, it ... spoils the mood quite a bit.
Anyway, cheers. Will keep following your videos. 🙂👍
Thanks as always for the video, your research has really influenced how I play the game and I'm always excited to see what you're cooking up. I hope you enjoy your break and look forward to more great content in the next game cycle!
Can't wait for your FM24 based training videos. I just binge watched all of the FM23 vids last night and learned a ton.
thank you for ur work, its sad to see its last video of FM23 :(
Thanks for all your videos on FM23. Well deserved break and looking forward to FM24 and your new videos!
Enjoy your break, Max. Looking forward to exploring FM24 together when the time comes.
Can't wait for Zealand's video on mentoring!
Charismatic leader. Nationality: North Korean. Nice one. You're doing god work
oh dude that was totally unintended but eerily it makes sense😅 The reason I set player nationality to North Korea is because North Korea does not play any international matches in FM so it reduces unwanted variables.
commenting for algorithm or smth
Most based FM TH-camr
Enjoy your break!
just found your channel from reddit, very good video!
a new topic you're the only one can explore is the differences between the game setups( large database, number of leagues chosen, playable/view only) and how this effects the transfer market
Something that could factor in is language and how fluent they are.
Mentorship is cool, but for me it is just a tool for sharing traits with other players. Like, when I have a talanted youngster, I give him a mentor with certain traits and watch him acquiring it. Mostly a free agent, 35+. What makes me wonder is the team's hidden attributes. Sometimes I would get a message saying that the character of the team has impacted a player. I can't remember the text exactly, but looks like the team itself also acts as a mentor. So my hypothesis is: having more professional players in your team makes young players grow their professionalism (or other hidden attributes) as well, even without direct mentoring.
Indeed
Would love to see some more detailed analysis on some of the parametres. For example is age just a static yes or no question, does reputation factor into this at all, do two mentors and one mentee give better growth than one mentor and two mentees, also how many mentees can you add before you dilute the gains. Does a 20 in Professionalism increase the growth compared to a 15, assuming the mentee is lower.
Otherwise, great job. Really appreciate your work!
Hey mate, all good points, each of those points will require separate videos for thorough investigation. Not so soon though, I need my TH-cam holiday!
LET'S GOOOOOO
Solid video as always. Perhaps this one was the least surprising, pretty much confirms what I thought/observed: yes mentoring is doing what it says it does, but the effect is fairly small.
FM24 training analysis would be awesome. Keep up the good work! :-)
Thank you for the great research. It has really helped with my youth academy challenge save 🙂
happy holiday playa hope your time off is merry
mentoring is unfluenced by social groups. Also the team personnality have an influence on the hidden attributes.
The benefit of using someone with the same position to mentor your players is player traits.
take your rest king
For the Kimmich tests, it would be good to test if there is a limit on how many he could mentor by replacing the Croatian kid. Also consider the effect of team influence on the players.
I'm loving your content it's exactly the sort of research I'm interested in in regards to FM. Would you consider making a video on finances? How different country, league and club attribute affects TV revenue, prizes and sponsors?
Hey bud, finances is one of the projects I'm considering in FM24. I'll have to take a look at FM24 first before I can decide though.
Great video Max! Would love to see you and Zealand collaborating in a video soon
Thanks.
Position does matter when it comes to traits which will most likely be passed on. You wouldn’t want to have a CAM mentoring a CD and have them pass on their “Shoots from distance” trait.
Hey bud, sure, position would be relevant if it is proven that mentoring shortens the amount of time it takes for a youngster to learn a new trait. I haven't tested it in this video though.
@@ebfm From an eye test from just playing it appears it does and at random too. It’s why I don’t often use mentoring unless I’m happy with 100% of potential outcomes. For example if I’m Liverpool I’ll use Salah to mentor Ben Doak and Harvey Elliot. Salah has the personality to mentor and has the ideal traits for an inside forward so him passing those traits onto Doak is what I want so I don’t need to train them into him which takes away from other training.
To whomever is reading, if you truly like the video, pls care to click the like button and comment, it will help with the YT algorithm, I think....
FM23 고생 많으셨습니다! FM24에서 뵙겠습니다.
+ Super Thanks 댓글 기능을 오픈하는 것도 고려해주세요. 품이 많이 드는 양질의 컨텐츠에 후원하고 싶은 시청자들을 위해서요!
감사합니다. Super Thanks는 음.. 아직 고려해 본 적은 없습니다. 차후에 고려해 보도록 하겠습니다😆
Mentee. Well I've learnt a new word 😂
One flaw here , If you don’t have the same position mentors some player traits not suited for their position will rub off like stay back at all times for a striker , cut inside from right for center backs and so on.
Good point mate, it appears that the difference in position itself does not affect the growth of personality attributes, but you definitely wouldn't want your youngsters picking up unwanted traits.
Next test could be straightforward: perfect group size for mentoring?
Some additional avenues that might be interesting to explore:
-Language barrier--condition where each player in the mentoring group only speaks one language, and all of those languages are different / the mentor speaks a different language from the mentees / one mentee speaks a different language from the mentor and the rest of the mentees.
-Social groups--I'm not sure if it's even possible to manipulate this using the editor, but whether the mentee is in the same social group as the mentor could make a difference.
-Size of personality gap--does an all-20s influence an all-10s more strongly than how an all-15s would? The Kimmich data hints at this, but I was having trouble interpreting it.
-Effectiveness at different levels--does an all-20s influence an all-15s differently from how an all-15s influences an all-10s?
A mentoring group tends to be the easiest pathway through Core Social Group in the whole game.
An all 20 influence an all 15 better but not because of the mentor is a great teacher, but because the mentee is ready to be a great leader by his self already
Oh, that was not the question. But yeah, all 20s influence all 10s better. Now yes, because they're so great.
Hey mate, all good points
1. Kimmich speaks fluent German, Tel speaks no German, Vidovic speaks fluent German
So you would expect Vidovic to respond better than Tel. But the results showed the opposite. So I doubt language barrier is a factor.
2. Social group could possibly make a difference, but there's no way to manipulate it using the editor so will be difficult to test.
3. Size of the 'gap' may slow down the transfer of personality. Although the differences between the personality attributes of Vidovic/Tel/Wanner are 2-3 points at most..
So yea, still no definitive answer about why Vidovic did not respond at all to mentoring.
Is potential ability at play here, ie "I will eventually be better than him, so i will pay less attention to the mentoring" - is it also possible that playing time affects the view of the mentee. ie if your mentor is being subbed, would you listen to him less as he isnt a star in the first team... could game ratings play a part... ie Just seen Kimmich have 5 great games - better learn from him... or could national team appearances play a part.. so many variables@@ebfm
정말 좋은 채널입니다. 다만 한국어 자막도 있었다면 한국이 나름 FM 인기있는 지역이라 생각해서 한국 유저들로부터 구독자를 더 많이 모으실 수 있을 것 같아요!
안녕하세요~ 저도 처음엔 한글 자막을 달아 볼까 생각했었는데.. 작업량이 너무 늘어나서 어려움이 있습니다 😂
@@ebfm 맞아요 ㅠ 글 쓰신 것도 보니 요약 분량도 아니고 디테일까지 다 담겨 있어서 보통 일이 아닐 것 같더라고요. 너무 유익한 채널이라 자주 홍보 하겠습니다!
@@ebfm 다시 복습하고 있는데 인게임 실험에서 비도비치가 영향을 받지 않은건 멘토링 그룹에 멘티가 이미 둘 이상이기 때문에 세 번째 멘티인 비도비치는 멘토링이 작동하지 않은 것 같습니다! 제가 알기로 멘토링은 멘토 한 명과 멘티 둘, 해서 총 세 명이 있어야 작동하거든요. 다시 한 번 훌륭한 컨텐츠 감사합니다.
With FM24 and its development changes that was talked about ( with Late Developers being a thing now ), wondering if you will take a look at that new system with FM24. It is something I am quite excited about as you won't have to just give up on players if they didn't develop explosively by age 20 or 21. I want more 26+ players to coming to their own.
Hello, I think I have an interesting concept that you may be interested in testing. Have you tried playing with grey players only and determining just what determines their quality? There has to be a correlation between club reputation, nation's youth rating etc. but it would be amazing to know more details such as if they remain the same throughout the season, get chosen for awards or gain tactical familiarity etc.
I think this needs further investigation.
1) If Mentor has 20 professionalism, will he affect the same a mentee with 1 and a mentee with 18 Prof? Will they increase their Prof in same rate?
2) How does social group affect Mentoring? If all in same social group does it increase Prof faster?
3) How does Team hierarchy affect mentoring? Will a Team leader help mentees more than a highly influential player?
4) How much multiple mentees are detrimental to Prof increases? 2 mentees all the way to 10 mentees.
5) How would a mentee increase if put in a group with 2 mentors (total group of 3 people)?
Hey bud, all good points you raise. I don't have answers to them, each of them will require separate videos for a thorough investigation.
@ebfm looking forward to that Sir!
Thank you !!!
I love your videos. Partly because of their insight but mainly because I could never glean this level of understanding myself. 5*****
Edit - are there conflicting personality types?
Hey bud, not sure what you mean by conflicting personality types, but I haven't heard of anything like that.
Max, I wonder if you are interested in how a specific player instruction on a specific position/role affect the tactic in FM24 just like what you did with step up/drop off instructions? It seems that "Dribble Less/More" on BPD have such a huge impact that can make the performance much worse. You can see this diffrence between "4231 Death Star" and "4231 Death Star II" on FM Arena. Besides, I wonder if this instruction truly made defenders dribble more or less?
Hey bud, it would be an interesting topic to test. Player instructions is an area that I've neglected but would like to delve into someday.
Interesting you point out BPDs with dribble less/more instructions, but whether the instructions actually work as intended is something that will need testing to prove. I know FM Arena does awesome work but their tests are based on season-long simulations so in my view lacks control. I prefer to do 1 game simulations so that I can compare the individual player statistics immediately after a match.
This is a awesome work! Really helpful. Just a quick question: when is the time to stop mentoring? when a young player reach a good personality attributes is enogh or his attributes could be drown back? I have some guys with good personalities at 18 and I'm not very sure If leaving them without more mentoring is a good decision
Hey bud, 24yrs of age is the cut-off date, as I mentioned in the summary 19:55. There is also an in-game message (appears during the loading-screen) that says mentoring is effective before the age of 24.
U have nice videos, thanks for the work. In this video i think u forgot one important test. One mentee with 2 or 3 mentors. Or if someone know about it, please tell me. :D
선생님 유망주 키울때
나이에 맞는 리그,풀타임,훈련빡시게
vs
1군올려서 멘토링으로 성격개조부터하고 u18계속차출시키기
중에 뭐가 더 효율이좋나요?
많은 공략들 찾아보니 시간도 의견도 뒤죽박죽인데 펨린이라 구분이 안가서
조언구해봅니더
안녕하세요. 1군에서 멘토링 + 1군 경기 출전이 더 성장에 도움이 되는 것으로 알고 있습니다.
FM23 시절에 진행했던 실험에 의하면, 1군 경기 출장시 성장률이 유스 경기 출장시보다 성장률이 더 좋았습니다.
th-cam.com/video/RwTSamdwi_E/w-d-xo.html
뛰어난 유망주가 있다면 1군 경기 출장을 최대한 자주 시켜 주시는 것을 권장드립니다. 다만 기존 1군 선수들에 밀려 출장 기회가 제한될 수 있으니, 1군/유스 경기를 섞어서 최대한 경기 수를 늘려 주시면 되겠습니다. 다만 너무 무리하면 부상 위험이 있으니 적당히..
You are missing the social groups influence
Thanks for the video, I wonder if the growth from mentoring has a detrimental effect on other areas of growth such as physical and technical traits; so do you get less growth in other areas as a consequence of mentoring. See you in FM24.
Yikes, didn't think of that, now I'm curious too 😅 a possible topic to revisit in the future.
Yes - I wondered about that too, it just makes sense, if the seasoned pro is busy mentoring, then he should be having less time to train himself and might be slightly distracted@@ebfm
No it does not. If you increase the mental hidden attributes (with the editor for example), the CA of the player doesn't change at all. CA is only meant for the visible attributes. And not all of those btw, because changing leadership for example doesn't change the CA either.
Hey mate, love the content i was wondering about consistency and important games traits do those change at all?
Hey bud, I haven't tested them so can't say for sure. A possible area to delve into in FM24.
Consistency can go up naturally as a player gets more experience on the pitch. Important games afaik does NOT change, atleast from what I’ve seen.
Will be wise to sign for free model citizen players only to train younger players in order to grow their hidden attributes? Of course these players won’t ask for playing time(emergency backup)and their main role will be the mentoring.
Hey bud, that's an interesting idea. But I believe that player hierarchy also plays a part in mentoring efficiency. Team Leaders / Highly Influential Players may be better at mentoring. So if you sign a crap player with Model Citizen personality, he will most likely be at the bottom of the hierarchy, and won't be too effective at mentoring.
Hey have you ever tested how much different levels of facilities affect player growth and youth intake? Thanks.
see what does half coach and scouts work as compared to 5 star considering all other attrubutes same.
I noticed that EBT23 doesn't work in FM24 so I assume you will be getting a FM24 version out fairly soon?
Thanks
Hey bud, sorry no plans to release an updated version at the moment, because I cannot assume that the game mechanics are the same in FM24. The structure of the EBTS is easy enough to build though so you can feel free to construct the same training schedule in FM24 and give it a try.
Fair enough. I will do that@@ebfm
Doesnt senior apperances affect mentoring? If a player has over a certain number regardless of age, they could receive no benefit
I was wondering that one, and even perhaps form, ie starting more often makes the mentee listen
Any chance to test consistency in future?
Consistency is a frequently requested topic. It's one of the top items on my list of things to test in FM24. I will have to take a look at FM24 first though before I make a decision.
Dropping consistency and likes big matches attributes drive me crazy!!
has it been tested how the coaches personality affect affect players Personality change? cant remember if this has been tested or not :)
I haven't tested it. I don't think it should be a factor though, surely mentoring is just an interaction between the mentor and the mentees.
I did a small amount of testing and found no noticeable difference in players hidden attributes
Isn’t 20 in temperament worse than 1 ?
I believe 20 Temperament is better, as it means that players are more 'temperate'.
Whether Temperament actually works in the game as intended is.. another matter.
I've done my own tests on mentoring and saw the same results as you. Its completely useless except for passing on player traits. The amount of time it would take to get a mentees personality to change would take 5-6 years and that's assuming said mentee is in the perfect group for all 5-6 of those years.
Well I wouldn't say it's completely useless, since the personality attributes did go up. Yes the rate of change is painfully slow (1-2/season max) but some attributes like Prof/Loyalty are very desirable, so you want every bit you can get!
@@ebfm yea but don't forget they will always need to be in the best mentoring situation (which is hard in itself) + length of time = pretty much useless. If you don't start mentoring at 15, 16 max then not worth trying at all.
I've had a growth of +4 personality in 4 years (15-19). He's a ballond'or winner now
@@BhlackBishop what do you mean by +4 personality?
@@mantorras7752 as in 12 prof to 16 prof
do languange matter?
how do you deal with the frustration of doing so much research only to see it getting somewhat obsolete in only a few months?
mentoring will still exist in fm24
I counter the frustration with the almost guaranteed reassurance that not much changes in FM every year.
@@ebfmlol
A guess with Vidovic not benefitting is because it looks like the game uses the average of players, Ii've seen this mentioned elswhere and it looks like it's the case with det at least, so maybe there's less pull on Vidovic's personality as it's closer to the mentors, maybe if this test was done over a couple of seasons it'd change
I would also like to know if multiple mentors makes a difference.