Well done! Great to hear of your early experience with 8x10. I too was surprised by how different the experience was after 15 years of shooting 4x5; I was making rookie mistakes all over again! But the pleasure of working with that big ground glass and the big negatives made it all worthwhile. I hope that you continue to enjoy.
I think you said the “why”…it’s fun, challenging, but super fun! I’ve been into 8x10 since the middle of 2020, and it probably is for me, some of the most fun I’ve had in photography period. And the discussions never stop! People are just interested by this camera that they might have only seen in a movie, not up close in real life.
You have a knack of building up - for me - a strong sense of what you’re doing and using a minimal number of words. A rare ability. Thx. Good luck too!
There is nothing like it in the world that taking pictures with an 8x10 is a wonderful pleasure, this big, slow, heavy camera makes every photo very your , you have the details below, above, diagonally, right, left, you'll get to a fantastic world.First I was a photographer I used Nikon D810(I sold all digital equipment) and after trying a large format I lost my mind,first time under the cloth I thought,this is my world,must think,do not rush, he has to study, take a picture of inside you, it's hard to put into words what he feels.Looking forward to see your photographs. Congratulations on your purchase and good light!
I was first motivated to try large format when I was visiting a local photographer and he put an 8x10 Kodachrome transparency on the light box. OMG, it was like touching a live wire. That was 30 years or so ago and I've never gotten over it. The irony is that my preference is for black and white. I can't remember the last time I shot color film. 😊
There was an essay that was written by a fellow (I can't quite remember his name) where he was in New York and he got a job with Irving Penn retouching his prints. At one point Mr. Penn called him into his office and on the Lightbox was the original 8x10 Kodachrome transparency for "After Dinner Games". There are few things in life as incredible as seeing a large format (I'll include 4x5 but really 8x10) transparency on a light table in a darkened room.
I'm picking up a Deardorff on Monday. I'm rediscovering film and have been shooting 120 for about a year. The other cost that I hadn't considered is the outrageous prices they get for film holders! I figured they'd be $50 - $75. Your experience with film is far advanced to mine, but since you're also new to 8 x 10 is very intriguing to me. I'll be watching for your progress and insights!
Really looking forward to see more of how you get on with this. I too just "upgraded" from a 3lb Chamonix 4x5 camera to a 19lb Wisner 8x10. Like you I struggle to explain why hah but it sure is an interesting challenge!
Thanks! It was a good *ahem* starter 8x10. I have been salivating after a few different cameras (Gibellini, in titanium and carbon fibre, anyone?) but the Toyo is solid as a rock and it's working out rather well, so far.
Wait till you try paper negatives. They are a challenge to figure out at first. Once you can get the paper, developer and split grade printing down, it’s a lot of fun. Even experienced photographers who print their own stuff, can’t tell it’s not from a film negative. I love 8x10 paper negative contact prints.
This intrigues me greatly! Thanks for the suggestion. Currently I’m working on gum bichromate with the negatives I have. Paper negatives are on the list!
The psycological pressure of not ruining a shot is also LARGE. You think you know about "the relief" when you take your film out of the jobo, but this is at whole another level of relief. Currently I use a lightweight 810 for field use (just 3kg, but no front swing and shift , and not rear movement at all ) and a monorail for indoor. Your Toyo is the best 810 field camera in my opinion, looking forward to see your work
the problem is you can't quantify intellectual curiosity. i'm unable to explain to my friends why i shoot 6X6 film on a hasselblad 500C in 2024, when there's no difference in the image quality to the common eye. if i ever shoot 8X10 - i'll never be able to justify it. kudos to what you're doing.
I have resisted to get an 8x10 because I don't know what it should be good for. More resolution than 4x5? In my opinion not necessary, if you don't regularly print larger than 2m. You can also do the perspective correction tilt, shift and swing with the more reasonably priced and portable 4x5 camera.
You're absolutely right in all respects. The 4x5 is lighter, more reasonably priced and the resolution from 4x5 is more than adequate for every possible scenario. And yet the 8x10 called me. The rationale for shooting 8x10 is purely romantic. There isn't any reasonable benefit to 8x10 with the only possible exception of being able to easily do contact prints in the darkroom. But, I love the 8x10. It's really strange, when I process my film and pull out a sheet of 8x10, it feels, 'right'. When I shoot with the 8x10 4 or 5 frames is a good day's work. When I lug it around it's not too heavy... If you look at it clinically the 8x10 serves little purpose. And yet I really love it. I think the reason why comes down to the fact that it's so incredibly unforgiving that in order to get a decent image you really have to want it and, in many cases, fight for it. The work and the dedication pays off. Any sloppiness will show up immediately.
very interesting Alistair, wow, a big camera, but, as a view camera (bed style, NOT a field camera), quite rare to see, esp. as most are either a monorail, or a field design, would be nice to see an "open and shut" video, and movements, holders, etc. a different look to the k.b. canham wood cameras you see on the fred Newman channel.
You what's funny about the Toyo? The 810M is their 'field camera'. The 810G is the studio camera, and it's even more cumbersome. Regardless, I hear what you're saying about the design of the camera. A Canham or a Gebellini is on my list, as soon as I get tired of lugging the Toyo everywhere. We'll see what we can do about an open and shut video. Not too hard to set that one up.
@andyvan5692 Toyo 810M is one of the very best field folder cameras made. This comment is based on owning two Toyo 810Ms decades ago (Tan version, then later Black series II). These metal field camera have stability, rigidity and accuracy no wood field camera can offer. This comment is based on previously owned Dorf, Wisner and others.. The 810M is simply superior as a field folder in every way. 810M also has enough camera/bellows extension to use non-telephoto design lenses which is not a small advantage for a field camera. Wood cameras might be visually charming and nostalgic, if the image maker is serious about using a proper view camera high precision all metal cameras like this 810M is the proper and correct choice. Keep in mind Linhof started out making press cameras (to be the Technika series) out of wood. It was not long before the folks at Linhof figured out there is no possible way for wood to meet the accuracy/precision/stability demands of a truly high quality camera... This is why Linhof makes only high quality all metal cameras to this day.
I've resisted 8x10 so far and after watching your video, I can probably continue resisting! I might give 110 a try😁.Thanks for the informative insight.
Oh yeah. 8x10 is just…. More, in every way. Lenses, camera, tripod…. But it is a ton of fun. 4x5 is a bit of a gateway, unfortunately! But you can stop before you get to 11x14….
Hi Alistair, I am about to jump in into 8x10 , I have been photographing for a long time but 4x5 was my entry along with 6x6 but now it is time to go all in. So my question is I have the opportunity to buy a TOYO as yours or A Thahirah or an Intrepid M2. the Intrepid is at $500 Aus and the other two are at 3k Aus (Australian $) Do I ease my self in and only spend $500 or go all in at 3k? Thanks, Dominique
Good question. Certainly the Toyo is one of the most sturdy 8x10 cameras ever made - but it's expensive and rather heavy. I love my Toyo but it's a challenge to lug around. Edward Weston was once quoted as saying, "Nothing worth taking a photo of is more than 500 yards from the car" or words to that effect, mainly because of the cumbersome nature of the 8x10. For the Intrepid I have heard the same thing but the other way - namely that it's a great camera, given the (low) price. I have heard of many people upgrading to something else after shooting with the Intrepid for a while. My opinion is that 8x10 is hideously expensive no matter what. The film is 4x the price of 4x5, same with processing... I think the smart way to approach it is to budget accordingly, and as a consequence I would buy the more expensive camera. I think, all-in, I'm at about $9,500 (Canadian) for my setup. That's 4 lenses, tripod, camera, holders, 3005 drum to process the film, spot meter, etc, etc... It feels like a hideous sum of money (and it is) but everything I bought I can re-sell for pretty much what I paid for it, less a reasonable amount of slippage. 8x10 isn't like a digital camera where the value drops like a stone. The pricing on 8x10 equipment is relatively stable. ...holding an 8x10 negative makes it all worthwhile, though. It's an incredible experience. If you need any clarification, ask away. Good luck with your quest.
@@UnderexposedwithAlastairBird HI well I pulled the trigger and go the TOYO with a 300 f5.6 along with 4x film holders. I don't know if it's madness or a good thing hahaha .
I think that 8x10 makes you a better photographer because it is, as you say, unforgiving. You will learn to pay attention or you will get frustrated and give up, and this translates into seeing and composition and exposure and everything else. I really think that there is no middle ground. Welcome to the money pit. Find someone with 11x14 or larger and go out shooting with them ( you're always welcome if you volunteer to carry something.) Bigger only gets better!
Wow! :) Have you considered loading photopaper instead of the expensive film? Yes its a hassle and no, you are not getting the advantage of getting a very detailed negative as a source, but its leas expensive and more available!
Sigh you have the camera I was looking for ever since I got interested in shooting 10x8. My Horseman, well, isn’t as portable… If you want to shoot colour, Polaroid is by far your cheapest option, assuming you can find a processor. Keeps like milk though.
8x10 film is the dream fantasy for some image makers as the "ultimate" image quality film format.. Reality is, 8x10 is extremely limiting in too many ways. The novelty of 8x10 film images easily wears off with the passage of time and realization of what is involved with creating film images on 8x10 film. That is when the reality of 8x10 film -vs- actual creative/expressive images made come into the light of actual image content. Limitations and problems with 8x10: ~Hard limits on lens choice (should be driven by image goals) and cost and size. Camera's ability to support lenses should be the driving factor for camera choice, not camera choice first then lenses to fit the camera. There are plenty of large aperture lenses that easily cover 8x10 with plenty of camera movement, problem is they are too big for shutters (including# 5 shutters) and too heavy for field folder cameras. ~Size/bulk/weight of any 8x10 camera.. as it is not just the weight of the 8x10 camera, there is the entire outfit from lenses, tripod, film holders, light meter, dark cloth outfit case and all easily adding up to more than twice the weight of camera alone. ~Film flatness is a very real issue with 8x10. film flatness degrades image quality in ways that is not often appreciated. ~Processing of film and post process image production. What will be done with 8x10 film images? Are there any advantages to using 8x10 film for the finished image? Fact is today, the only rational justification for 8x10 is to make contact prints. There is drum and flat bed scanning which does not reveal much of what 8x10 offers... IMO, most image makers today venture into 8x10 for the experience, few stay with 8x10. most leave 8x10 after some years of trying.. discovering 8x10's limits and benefits. This is based on doing this view camera stuff for about four decades. Been and done all that 8x10 stuff decades ago when 8x10 was very possible and more common. Did not find and significant advantage to 8x10 back then other than cost, size, lens/camera limitations and more. Moved to 5x7 circa late 1980's and have been using 5x7_13x18cm to this day. Easily equals 8x10 for optical enlargement print quality, best choices of lenses of all sheet film formats, less than half the size/weight and all of 8x10, slightly lager than 4x5. Oh, give up that ball head, fine camera control and positioning is near impossible with any ball head.. been there done that. The traditional 3-way head works better. Or use a Majestic geared head which is a near ideal performance/cost trade off for large sheet film cameras.. Do keep in mind, any view camera is a simple light tight box that is flexi in the middle with a lens on one end and ground glass/film holder on the other..
Can't argue with anything you said, except that overall the limitations are what I'm craving - they're a feature, rather than a bug. It might well wear off and I may well be selling off the old Toyo at some point, but in the meantime I'm having quite a bit of fun and I'm rather smitten by the process. Still in the honeymoon phase. If nothing else it has made me a much more careful shooter. Mistakes abound with 8x10.
@@UnderexposedwithAlastairBird All part of the learning ("honeymoon") phase of learning how to view camera. Suggest practicing with a 4x5 until few if any mishaps occur before moving on to the 8x10. Burning and wasting film is a given with learning how to view camera... The learning how to view camera learning curve is really steep and not worth burning 8x10 film during the learning process. As for the current lens set, they are the "Classic" what's ideal for 8x10 via the internet search. Yet, that lens set has a small focal length spread with is limiting in many ways. 250mm is medium wide on 8x10 at best and very close to 300mm. IMO, chose either the 250mm or 300mm. The 450mm Nikkor is also kinda close to 300mm and not really a "tele" on 8x10. A better set of lens focal lengths based on the 250mm as medium wide would be 165mm as wide, 360mm/14" as "normal" followed by 480mm/19" to 600mm/24" as tele. Don't get caught up with the "most desirable" lenses tooted on the internet, fact is there were no "hobbyist" view camera lenses made. Know wide angle lenses for 8x10 are big, pricy and might need a center filter to correct for light fall off (often and usually no for B&W, yes for color transparency film). APO process lenses like APO artar, APO ronar are absolutely idea for longer than normal focal lengths and will have absolutely excellent optical performance at infinity to 1:1 life size image ratios. Exposure aperture drives lens types, Tessar formula lenses like Kodak Ektars are excellent at full aperture (f4.5 or f6.3) down to f22 with excellent into out of focus rendition and modest contrast with surprising resolution. The modern plasmat will be optimized at f22, have high contrast and less than pleasing into out of focus rendition.. These lenses were specifically designed to meet the needs of commercial AD photographers needing high contrast impact in AD images.. Higher contrast is not always a plus.. that feature is image goal driven and not alway a good feature for all creative image making goals. Multi coatings are not always a plus on view camera lenses due to their simple and limited lens element designs. Worlds apart from any modern lens for digital or film.
@@rupunzel6299 Thanks for all the pointers. In truth, I have been shooting 4x5 for about 30 years. I generally don't shoot it the way most people shoot it - generally wide open and often trying to get as much mood and character as possible. I would love to track down some uncoated or single-coated 8x10 lenses because why not? If I want amazing sharpness and/or incredible lens designs, I have many other cameras which will suffice. I'm not trying to outdo my Fuji GFX with the 8x10. I'm trying to capture what I feel has been lost in modern photography. Everything is too perfect. Too sharp, too in-focus, too easy to get technically amazing but emotionally empty images. I want mojo, which the 8x10 has in spades. As long as you can figure out how to manage it, of course. Regardless, thanks again for the pointers, all very helpful.
Suggest 14" commercial Ektar for 8x10 or 12" f4.5 Ektar as first choice for 8x10 lenses used at full aperture. These are Tessar formula lenses that have excellent in to out of focus rendition with excellent contrast gradation and overall moderate contrast coupled with excellent neutral color rendition. Alternative, Schneider Xenar (f4.5), Fujinar f4.5 and many other Tessar formula view camera lenses. There are very real technical and image quality reasons why the Tessar formula remains in production to this day (over 100 years now). The "Everything is too perfect. Too sharp, too in-focus, too easy to get technically amazing but emotionally empty images." mentioned is a product of commercial AD images from the film era followed by the digital era where the majority of photographers were SO obsessed with "sharpness, resolution and contrasty" the camera and optics companies simply answered what the market demanded/expected or the style of images previously mentioned.These are the images to be expected from your current 8x10 lens set.. Do consider venturing into the world of 8x10 soft focus lenses then making contact prints direct from the 8x10 film negative.. the results remains special in many ways. Having been a 5x7_13x18cm Sinar user for nearly four decades, there are vintage (Kodak Ektar and similar) to the most modern (Schneider SSXL and last version of Funijon CM-W) to be used dependent on image goals. Lens choice is driven by exposure aperture. Wide angle lenses are majority modern as they have the best optical performance for a wide angle view camera lens. Longer than normal focal length (about 2x "normal) lenses are majority APO process lenses as they offer the best performance with few exceptions. Telephoto design view camera lenses that reduce the need for bellows draw are typically not used (exception of the 500mm f5.5 tele xenon which is used at f5.5 to f11) as none of the Sinar cameras have bellows or camera extension or camera stability issues.. @@UnderexposedwithAlastairBird
Well done! Great to hear of your early experience with 8x10. I too was surprised by how different the experience was after 15 years of shooting 4x5; I was making rookie mistakes all over again! But the pleasure of working with that big ground glass and the big negatives made it all worthwhile. I hope that you continue to enjoy.
That is so cool! I am looking forward to seeing your journey with the 8x10 camera.
I think you said the “why”…it’s fun, challenging, but super fun! I’ve been into 8x10 since the middle of 2020, and it probably is for me, some of the most fun I’ve had in photography period. And the discussions never stop! People are just interested by this camera that they might have only seen in a movie, not up close in real life.
You have a knack of building up - for me - a strong sense of what you’re doing and using a minimal number of words. A rare ability. Thx. Good luck too!
There is nothing like it in the world that taking pictures with an 8x10 is a wonderful pleasure, this big, slow, heavy camera makes every photo very your , you have the details below, above, diagonally, right, left, you'll get to a fantastic world.First I was a photographer I used Nikon D810(I sold all digital equipment) and after trying a large format I lost my mind,first time under the cloth I thought,this is my world,must think,do not rush, he has to study, take a picture of inside you, it's hard to put into words what he feels.Looking forward to see your photographs.
Congratulations on your purchase and good light!
Love your channel. Getting better each time. 8x10!!! Yes!!!
I was first motivated to try large format when I was visiting a local photographer and he put an 8x10 Kodachrome transparency on the light box. OMG, it was like touching a live wire. That was 30 years or so ago and I've never gotten over it.
The irony is that my preference is for black and white. I can't remember the last time I shot color film. 😊
There was an essay that was written by a fellow (I can't quite remember his name) where he was in New York and he got a job with Irving Penn retouching his prints. At one point Mr. Penn called him into his office and on the Lightbox was the original 8x10 Kodachrome transparency for "After Dinner Games".
There are few things in life as incredible as seeing a large format
(I'll include 4x5 but really 8x10) transparency on a light table in a darkened room.
I'm picking up a Deardorff on Monday. I'm rediscovering film and have been shooting 120 for about a year. The other cost that I hadn't considered is the outrageous prices they get for film holders! I figured they'd be $50 - $75. Your experience with film is far advanced to mine, but since you're also new to 8 x 10 is very intriguing to me. I'll be watching for your progress and insights!
Keep an eye out for used holders! They often come up and aren’t as expensive as the new ones!
Really looking forward to see more of how you get on with this. I too just "upgraded" from a 3lb Chamonix 4x5 camera to a 19lb Wisner 8x10. Like you I struggle to explain why hah but it sure is an interesting challenge!
When I pick up my 4x5 bag I can't believe how lightweight it is! Thanks for the reply.
The Toyo is a wonderful camera and will do just about everything you need it to. Looking forward to seeing you use it.
Thanks! It was a good *ahem* starter 8x10. I have been salivating after a few different cameras (Gibellini, in titanium and carbon fibre, anyone?) but the Toyo is solid as a rock and it's working out rather well, so far.
Wait till you try paper negatives. They are a challenge to figure out at first. Once you can get the paper, developer and split grade printing down, it’s a lot of fun. Even experienced photographers who print their own stuff, can’t tell it’s not from a film negative. I love 8x10 paper negative contact prints.
This intrigues me greatly! Thanks for the suggestion. Currently I’m working on gum bichromate with the negatives I have. Paper negatives are on the list!
The psycological pressure of not ruining a shot is also LARGE. You think you know about "the relief" when you take your film out of the jobo, but this is at whole another level of relief. Currently I use a lightweight 810 for field use (just 3kg, but no front swing and shift , and not rear movement at all ) and a monorail for indoor. Your Toyo is the best 810 field camera in my opinion, looking forward to see your work
Price might be astonishing but remember 8" x 10" is FOUR times larger than 4" x 5", AND 4x5 is 15 times the area of 35 mm frame.
the problem is you can't quantify intellectual curiosity. i'm unable to explain to my friends why i shoot 6X6 film on a hasselblad 500C in 2024, when there's no difference in the image quality to the common eye. if i ever shoot 8X10 - i'll never be able to justify it. kudos to what you're doing.
I have resisted to get an 8x10 because I don't know what it should be good for. More resolution than 4x5? In my opinion not necessary, if you don't regularly print larger than 2m. You can also do the perspective correction tilt, shift and swing with the more reasonably priced and portable 4x5 camera.
You're absolutely right in all respects. The 4x5 is lighter, more reasonably priced and the resolution from 4x5 is more than adequate for every possible scenario.
And yet the 8x10 called me. The rationale for shooting 8x10 is purely romantic. There isn't any reasonable benefit to 8x10 with the only possible exception of being able to easily do contact prints in the darkroom.
But, I love the 8x10. It's really strange, when I process my film and pull out a sheet of 8x10, it feels, 'right'. When I shoot with the 8x10 4 or 5 frames is a good day's work. When I lug it around it's not too heavy...
If you look at it clinically the 8x10 serves little purpose. And yet I really love it. I think the reason why comes down to the fact that it's so incredibly unforgiving that in order to get a decent image you really have to want it and, in many cases, fight for it. The work and the dedication pays off. Any sloppiness will show up immediately.
I bought an Arca Swiss, early version 10x8, but once I got involved with the costs I chickened out and sold it.
Can't blame you. The cost, the weight, the amount of effort... It can be overwhelming.
very interesting Alistair, wow, a big camera, but, as a view camera (bed style, NOT a field camera), quite rare to see, esp. as most are either a monorail, or a field design, would be nice to see an "open and shut" video, and movements, holders, etc. a different look to the k.b. canham wood cameras you see on the fred Newman channel.
You what's funny about the Toyo? The 810M is their 'field camera'. The 810G is the studio camera, and it's even more cumbersome. Regardless, I hear what you're saying about the design of the camera. A Canham or a Gebellini is on my list, as soon as I get tired of lugging the Toyo everywhere. We'll see what we can do about an open and shut video. Not too hard to set that one up.
@andyvan5692
Toyo 810M is one of the very best field folder cameras made. This comment is based on owning two Toyo 810Ms decades ago (Tan version, then later Black series II). These metal field camera have stability, rigidity and accuracy no wood field camera can offer. This comment is based on previously owned Dorf, Wisner and others.. The 810M is simply superior as a field folder in every way. 810M also has enough camera/bellows extension to use non-telephoto design lenses which is not a small advantage for a field camera. Wood cameras might be visually charming and nostalgic, if the image maker is serious about using a proper view camera high precision all metal cameras like this 810M is the proper and correct choice.
Keep in mind Linhof started out making press cameras (to be the Technika series) out of wood. It was not long before the folks at Linhof figured out there is no possible way for wood to meet the accuracy/precision/stability demands of a truly high quality camera... This is why Linhof makes only high quality all metal cameras to this day.
I've resisted 8x10 so far and after watching your video, I can probably continue resisting! I might give 110 a try😁.Thanks for the informative insight.
Ha! Well, if your resistance wavers you could always continue past 110 film - Minox, anyone?
👍😁
Omg… i am really keen to try 8x10 after using 4x5 for a year… but camera itself it also pretty expensive…
Oh yeah. 8x10 is just…. More, in every way. Lenses, camera, tripod…. But it is a ton of fun. 4x5 is a bit of a gateway, unfortunately! But you can stop before you get to 11x14….
You sold me.
Heh. Wait until I bring forth my laundry list of 'whoops, what just happened there?' situations!
Hi Alistair, I am about to jump in into 8x10 , I have been photographing for a long time but 4x5 was my entry along with 6x6 but now it is time to go all in. So my question is I have the opportunity to buy a TOYO as yours or A Thahirah or an Intrepid M2. the Intrepid is at $500 Aus and the other two are at 3k Aus (Australian $) Do I ease my self in and only spend $500 or go all in at 3k? Thanks, Dominique
Good question. Certainly the Toyo is one of the most sturdy 8x10 cameras ever made - but it's expensive and rather heavy. I love my Toyo but it's a challenge to lug around. Edward Weston was once quoted as saying, "Nothing worth taking a photo of is more than 500 yards from the car" or words to that effect, mainly because of the cumbersome nature of the 8x10. For the Intrepid I have heard the same thing but the other way - namely that it's a great camera, given the (low) price. I have heard of many people upgrading to something else after shooting with the Intrepid for a while. My opinion is that 8x10 is hideously expensive no matter what. The film is 4x the price of 4x5, same with processing... I think the smart way to approach it is to budget accordingly, and as a consequence I would buy the more expensive camera. I think, all-in, I'm at about $9,500 (Canadian) for my setup. That's 4 lenses, tripod, camera, holders, 3005 drum to process the film, spot meter, etc, etc... It feels like a hideous sum of money (and it is) but everything I bought I can re-sell for pretty much what I paid for it, less a reasonable amount of slippage. 8x10 isn't like a digital camera where the value drops like a stone. The pricing on 8x10 equipment is relatively stable.
...holding an 8x10 negative makes it all worthwhile, though. It's an incredible experience. If you need any clarification, ask away. Good luck with your quest.
@@UnderexposedwithAlastairBird HI well I pulled the trigger and go the TOYO with a 300 f5.6 along with 4x film holders. I don't know if it's madness or a good thing hahaha .
EXCELLENT!!!!
I think that 8x10 makes you a better photographer because it is, as you say, unforgiving. You will learn to pay attention or you will get frustrated and give up, and this translates into seeing and composition and exposure and everything else. I really think that there is no middle ground.
Welcome to the money pit. Find someone with 11x14 or larger and go out shooting with them ( you're always welcome if you volunteer to carry something.) Bigger only gets better!
Wow! :)
Have you considered loading photopaper instead of the expensive film?
Yes its a hassle and no, you are not getting the advantage of getting a very detailed negative as a source, but its leas expensive and more available!
Photo paper could be very fun. Great idea.
Sigh you have the camera I was looking for ever since I got interested in shooting 10x8. My Horseman, well, isn’t as portable…
If you want to shoot colour, Polaroid is by far your cheapest option, assuming you can find a processor. Keeps like milk though.
Polaroid! never thought of that. I'll have to check it out, thanks!
8x10 film is the dream fantasy for some image makers as the "ultimate" image quality film format.. Reality is, 8x10 is extremely limiting in too many ways. The novelty of 8x10 film images easily wears off with the passage of time and realization of what is involved with creating film images on 8x10 film. That is when the reality of 8x10 film -vs- actual creative/expressive images made come into the light of actual image content.
Limitations and problems with 8x10:
~Hard limits on lens choice (should be driven by image goals) and cost and size. Camera's ability to support lenses should be the driving factor for camera choice, not camera choice first then lenses to fit the camera. There are plenty of large aperture lenses that easily cover 8x10 with plenty of camera movement, problem is they are too big for shutters (including# 5 shutters) and too heavy for field folder cameras.
~Size/bulk/weight of any 8x10 camera.. as it is not just the weight of the 8x10 camera, there is the entire outfit from lenses, tripod, film holders, light meter, dark cloth outfit case and all easily adding up to more than twice the weight of camera alone.
~Film flatness is a very real issue with 8x10. film flatness degrades image quality in ways that is not often appreciated.
~Processing of film and post process image production. What will be done with 8x10 film images? Are there any advantages to using 8x10 film for the finished image?
Fact is today, the only rational justification for 8x10 is to make contact prints. There is drum and flat bed scanning which does not reveal much of what 8x10 offers... IMO, most image makers today venture into 8x10 for the experience, few stay with 8x10. most leave 8x10 after some years of trying.. discovering 8x10's limits and benefits.
This is based on doing this view camera stuff for about four decades. Been and done all that 8x10 stuff decades ago when 8x10 was very possible and more common. Did not find and significant advantage to 8x10 back then other than cost, size, lens/camera limitations and more. Moved to 5x7 circa late 1980's and have been using 5x7_13x18cm to this day. Easily equals 8x10 for optical enlargement print quality, best choices of lenses of all sheet film formats, less than half the size/weight and all of 8x10, slightly lager than 4x5.
Oh, give up that ball head, fine camera control and positioning is near impossible with any ball head.. been there done that. The traditional 3-way head works better. Or use a Majestic geared head which is a near ideal performance/cost trade off for large sheet film cameras.. Do keep in mind, any view camera is a simple light tight box that is flexi in the middle with a lens on one end and ground glass/film holder on the other..
Can't argue with anything you said, except that overall the limitations are what I'm craving - they're a feature, rather than a bug. It might well wear off and I may well be selling off the old Toyo at some point, but in the meantime I'm having quite a bit of fun and I'm rather smitten by the process. Still in the honeymoon phase. If nothing else it has made me a much more careful shooter. Mistakes abound with 8x10.
@@UnderexposedwithAlastairBird
All part of the learning ("honeymoon") phase of learning how to view camera. Suggest practicing with a 4x5 until few if any mishaps occur before moving on to the 8x10. Burning and wasting film is a given with learning how to view camera... The learning how to view camera learning curve is really steep and not worth burning 8x10 film during the learning process.
As for the current lens set, they are the "Classic" what's ideal for 8x10 via the internet search. Yet, that lens set has a small focal length spread with is limiting in many ways. 250mm is medium wide on 8x10 at best and very close to 300mm. IMO, chose either the 250mm or 300mm. The 450mm Nikkor is also kinda close to 300mm and not really a "tele" on 8x10.
A better set of lens focal lengths based on the 250mm as medium wide would be 165mm as wide, 360mm/14" as "normal" followed by 480mm/19" to 600mm/24" as tele. Don't get caught up with the "most desirable" lenses tooted on the internet, fact is there were no "hobbyist" view camera lenses made. Know wide angle lenses for 8x10 are big, pricy and might need a center filter to correct for light fall off (often and usually no for B&W, yes for color transparency film). APO process lenses like APO artar, APO ronar are absolutely idea for longer than normal focal lengths and will have absolutely excellent optical performance at infinity to 1:1 life size image ratios. Exposure aperture drives lens types, Tessar formula lenses like Kodak Ektars are excellent at full aperture (f4.5 or f6.3) down to f22 with excellent into out of focus rendition and modest contrast with surprising resolution. The modern plasmat will be optimized at f22, have high contrast and less than pleasing into out of focus rendition.. These lenses were specifically designed to meet the needs of commercial AD photographers needing high contrast impact in AD images.. Higher contrast is not always a plus.. that feature is image goal driven and not alway a good feature for all creative image making goals. Multi coatings are not always a plus on view camera lenses due to their simple and limited lens element designs. Worlds apart from any modern lens for digital or film.
@@rupunzel6299 Thanks for all the pointers. In truth, I have been shooting 4x5 for about 30 years. I generally don't shoot it the way most people shoot it - generally wide open and often trying to get as much mood and character as possible. I would love to track down some uncoated or single-coated 8x10 lenses because why not? If I want amazing sharpness and/or incredible lens designs, I have many other cameras which will suffice. I'm not trying to outdo my Fuji GFX with the 8x10.
I'm trying to capture what I feel has been lost in modern photography. Everything is too perfect. Too sharp, too in-focus, too easy to get technically amazing but emotionally empty images. I want mojo, which the 8x10 has in spades. As long as you can figure out how to manage it, of course. Regardless, thanks again for the pointers, all very helpful.
Suggest 14" commercial Ektar for 8x10 or 12" f4.5 Ektar as first choice for 8x10 lenses used at full aperture. These are Tessar formula lenses that have excellent in to out of focus rendition with excellent contrast gradation and overall moderate contrast coupled with excellent neutral color rendition. Alternative, Schneider Xenar (f4.5), Fujinar f4.5 and many other Tessar formula view camera lenses. There are very real technical and image quality reasons why the Tessar formula remains in production to this day (over 100 years now).
The "Everything is too perfect. Too sharp, too in-focus, too easy to get technically amazing but emotionally empty images." mentioned is a product of commercial AD images from the film era followed by the digital era where the majority of photographers were SO obsessed with "sharpness, resolution and contrasty" the camera and optics companies simply answered what the market demanded/expected or the style of images previously mentioned.These are the images to be expected from your current 8x10 lens set..
Do consider venturing into the world of 8x10 soft focus lenses then making contact prints direct from the 8x10 film negative.. the results remains special in many ways.
Having been a 5x7_13x18cm Sinar user for nearly four decades, there are vintage (Kodak Ektar and similar) to the most modern (Schneider SSXL and last version of Funijon CM-W) to be used dependent on image goals. Lens choice is driven by exposure aperture. Wide angle lenses are majority modern as they have the best optical performance for a wide angle view camera lens. Longer than normal focal length (about 2x "normal) lenses are majority APO process lenses as they offer the best performance with few exceptions.
Telephoto design view camera lenses that reduce the need for bellows draw are typically not used (exception of the 500mm f5.5 tele xenon which is used at f5.5 to f11) as none of the Sinar cameras have bellows or camera extension or camera stability issues..
@@UnderexposedwithAlastairBird
@rupunzel6299 Ah, the Ektar lenses are on my list, for sure. Now to see if I can find a good copy.
if you want to step up get a chamonix its light and an amazing camera