Streaming Data Shows 2024 Was a Disaster for Big Fantasy Franchises
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ก.พ. 2025
- Examining the Luminate 2024 report and Deadline's analysis of it, showing the drastic decline of some of the biggest sci-fi and fantasy franchises and the mismanagement that led to this decline. But I believe there is hope because certain studios are proving their ability to consistently tell compelling stories in this space.
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If the show is crap, don't blame the genre.
Maybe now we can dig up some IPs of crappy books and then get a really good writing team to adapt and elevate it. Like take a random pulp comic and make it Conan level good.
Aka rings of power. Money does not make a show great. Giving a damn does.
And whatever you do, don't blame the audience!
@@greasybumpkin1661 problem is we need new original shows. i think what they are doing is handing off the franchise shows to inexperienced people so they can gain experience, but these new people coming in are completely incapable of taking constructive criticism. instead they take the easy way out of blaming someone else. when they do something new, there is simply no-one to blame.
🎯🎯🎯
All these great franchises were handed to people who think the stuff they write were better then the original creators stuff. And when fans said anything about it, they treated us like we weren't fans to begin with. The numbers don't lie.
Unfortunately to most studios, they see big IPs not as continuing a grand story that needs to be well handled. Instead they see a "guaranteed audience" who will consume the show/film regardless of it's quality. I think that is why actors and executives lash out at the audience when these projects under perform. Because they can only see a nebulous sea of consumers and failed to buy what the studios were selling, instead of people with a modicum of taste that were unwilling to pay for garbage.
No one is watching bad sci fi. It could survive if we start to someday get good sci fi shows.
It just seems to me they make shows for 10% of the audience, tell the other 90% "this is not for you" then when the production flops they blame the 90% for not watching something that insults them and they made clear "we didn't make this for you."
Well said. And I vote with my remote.
it's because we're not being given Sci-fi & Fantasy, we're being force fed the Ideologies of whatever corporate entity is footing the bill
Exactly.
Yep.
I remember the days when T.V. shows like M.A.S.H., Magnum P.I., T.N.G. produced more episodes per season, were better written and their production cost per episode were far lower than the trash produced today. Audience apathy is the symptom of greedy mismanagement.
i spent more time watching m*a*s*h this last year than i spent watching other shows. and ive seen every episode 20+ times.
Back in the syndication days. Where you needed 100 episodes to sell into syndication.
Exactly.
These mega corporations will say they cant afford to give part time employees health insurance coverage, and then they'll waste $500 Million on a couple tv shows that hardly anyone watches.
It always goes back to the writing. Yes you can say there’s a lot more options now with streaming which can create choice paralysis or more diffusion of culture. But good writing is good writing. That’s why series like the Penguin, Shogun were so well regarded.
And why they managed to stand out amongst a lot of the stuff out there. Rings of power being a good example of spectacle over a lack of substance.
And for the folks who say that’s subjective then here’s my question: why is it that many folks revisit older great movies like the Jackson films? Almost like a lot of care and effort and thought went into them. That the writers wanted to make something good. There’s no guarantee it would have been a success.
But their drive to make something timeless and memorable shows with the writing. Instead of just content on a streaming service that’s like a Big Mac. Passively consume, get satiated and then move on. What a waste of
Who's to blame? The mismanagement that led to the writer's strike. The good writers have been run out of the industry by poor treatment. Bad writers==>bad shows==>bad ratings.
Maybe if they paid writers properly and treated them well, they'd start having hits again.
No IP is guaranteed. The past years have taught us that. Far too many seem to think lackluster writing and political narratives make a good show and it just isn't so.
They alienated hardcore Tolkien fanatics in general with how it was handled before the series even launched
I can see them now using this to say sci-fi doesn’t work or something stupid… not, oh boy we’ve been messing up 😞
The audience for sci-fi and fantasy from Disney and Amazon will continue to drop because the fans of those genres have no faith in either studio now, none at all.
It sucks because Skeleton Crew is pretty fun.
What annoys me the most is how inept these studios are. I mean how can you not manage to find a good tv series from Star Wars or Lord of the Rings?! Off the top of my head, as a huge fan of both, I can think of a dozen, but the key thing is they don't necessarily have to think up something new.
What do I mean by that? Star Wars has decades of Expanded Universe books, comics and computer games most of which are excellently written. Just adapt them!! As for Lord of the Rings, well, Tolkien left a lot of ideas in the Appendices. What Amazon did wrong was hire idiot writers who decided to cherry pick bits and pieces from an age that stretched for hundreds of years in Tolkien's history then ram them all together over the course of a few months on the show. My first go to if I had been Amazon writers? Tell the War with Angmar and the Witch King. Spread the show out over a number of seasons and don't be afraid to jump forward many years if you need to in the story. It's basically Game of Thrones, just in Middle Earth :)
It’s almost like the shows are bad and not worth the time or money. 🤷♂️
I watched season 1 of rings of power and I'm not surprised at this news. I didn't watch acolyte so didn't have an opinion, but I saw a lot of people (I thought) mocking the power of many singing, then saw the scene and... you know that feeling when you think people are joking about something because it's so outrageously ridiculous, but they're actually being serious? Yeah.
Another problem is the trend of milking a franchise til it goes sour.
I was watching an interview of one of the writers from the Marvel Civil War series on Disney Plus and something stood out to me. The writer said, _"We were told not to look at the source material and to just..."_ The interviewer Grace Randolph who's usually utterly professional looked absolutely appalled _for a second_ before she returned back on her professional demeanor. I was stunned at the notion of writers being told not to follow the source material and to just _do their own thing._ A lot of these shows veer so far off of the material while also injecting social narrative which isn't always a terrible thing, but that tends to highlight every little mistake a show doesn't get right. Imagine if you actually follow the material and then inject a social modernistic narrative... that tends to go down easier. Or at least you'd think that would be the case.
Give the actual audience something they enjoy, that their time has already been poured into, and then surprise them with something that's not normally there in the material. But with these shows, they completely redo the entire narrative to the point that it's only the series in name only. It's just not working for the studios when they do these sorts of things. I think Hollywood is so used to adapting novels and other franchises that they've enjoyed a lot of creative freedom. It's as though writers hate being tied down to a more well-known author's work. They want to inject their own ideas without paying homage to the established narrative.
To me, it's a give and take but the writers these days just seem to take and take and well... get bored of the very same material the fanbase adores. It's a problem but I'm not sure how to fix it, hopefully, these numbers push them in the right direction but at the same time, I'm so worried that'll cause them to lean so far into the material that it becomes overly predictable.
As far as I can tell, all of the offerings which are doing poorly have decided that social critique messaging is more important than plot and character. Clearly, many of us just want to be entertained, not preached to.
Yep.
There is hope, as soon as companies start hiring more for competency rather than checking a box or pushing an irl political narrative.
Yep!
I miss the days of Battlestar Galactica and Game of Thrones. Silo is good. Disney seems hellbent on ruining the things I love but, Amazon is a close second.
HBO is still knocking out the odd banger. House of the Dragon is great and so is The White Lotus
I've had a hypothesis for a few months regarding the backlash towards criticism of these shows, The Acolyte especially, as it was so close to the election. I think one of the reasons the backlash to criticisms of shows like RoP and The Acolyte was so vitriolic was because their supporters were also vehemently anti-Trump, and perhaps subconsciously they sensed that these shows that catered to their preferred brand of politics being increasingly criticized and unpopular, combined with The Acolyte being cancelled was a sign of "things to come." Which is why the freakout over that one, and it's subsequent cancelation seemed more extreme than usual (to me at least).
Who knew giving Star Wars to Kathleen Kennedy and Harvey Weinstein's secretary would be a bad idea?
"The power of MAAANNNYYYY!"
apathy has set in, fans have given up on beloved franchises due to poor writing.
Some sci fi shows i enjoyed, like Raised By Wolves , which i thought was excellent even if it was a bit out there , but it got cancelled, then you get some shows , how ever bad they are, that just appear to keep on going lol
Money laundering.
If the show is shit, the fans will quit. 🤷♂
I wonder what the problem is haha it’s right in our faces. Make quality and magically the numbers will come back
Honestly its the lack of creativity across the entire entertainment industries fault that its down. Obviously Disney hates money with their offerings lately. Amazon has a similar issue with LOTR. The whole industry needs to purge their creatively bankrupt employees.
People haven't got money for multiple subscriptions. Ita easier to get a disc set of something old from goodwill or ebay
Yep.
i pay one subscription, my vpn account. so i can download all the "linux isos" i want.
"Creativity makes up for the lack of a budget." Brilliant point, Elaine. It baffles me why Hollywood doesn't get that.
I disagree on the point that they buy an IP for the huge fan base. Yes, logically that would be how they view it. I mean hell, its like printing money if you give the fans what they want. Unfortunately it seems Disney and Amazon don't see it that way. They buy the IP then change them up to what they think people want to see. The screw over the inbuilt fans looking for that ever elusive 'Modern audience' that has never, ever been seen.
Thanks!
Thanks for the support!
Episodic TV. Back in the day (50s, 60s 70s) you had to have a writing team able to do 39 episodes per year!
Everything that gets woke gets wrecked on a very consistent basis. When it comes to selling a product, you can't crap all over the consumers by disrespecting the original IP, insulting them, and expect them to pay for more.
Wild to think back to when there was a "TV Season" that began every Fall and each show would be like 24 episodes. You would look at the "TV Guide" to keep track of it.
LOTR offshoots are so far below the high expectations of the original IP. I too became disinterested midway through season 1 and just stopped watching.
The last series that I was passionate about (The Expanse) isn't even spoken about any more.
Another big fantasy IP that Amazon botched was "The Wheel Of Time" obviously not as big as LOTR, but it should have made for a great series. It was sad to watch them stray from the source material. Even though I heard it was bad, I gave it a chance. However I didn't even finish the first episode. It was clear that the fans criticizing the show were on point.
It's simple, identity politics destroys entertainment.
Billy Bob Thornton is an exceptionally compelling actor.
Yeah, Foundation is only loosly suggested by the work of Issac Asimov.
To be fair, I think it'd be pretty close to impossible to do a video adaptation of "Foundation" which really faithfully stuck to the books.
Because most of what's been made has been utter crap.
I'm going to admit outright. I'm author with a fantasy series, and a dream is to have it out as a tv series (rather than movies), and the decline in quality productions of scifi and fantasy is worrying to me. I know many authors who berate with "not another remake, why not do good tv series and movies with the hundreds of thousands of books, often those from lesser known authors INSTEAD."
The second problem is that compared to the early 1980s when TNG launched with seasons of 25(ish) episodes of about 45 minutes. Compare that to 'V' (the 1980s mini-series) which clocked in at 190 minutes for its TWO episodes. The Acolyte (as an example) is 8 episodes of about 35 minutes each (some a bit longer) and that's about 290 minutes(ish).
A rhetorical question but which was able to deliver more exposition within the frame of "the story" being told. I'm speaking here of the overall backstory for ALL the characters by the way.
A much longer series with at least 20 episodes of at least 45 minutes has a chance to tell so much more story EVEN IF no additional series are done, which is a shame in some cases as there were and are some gems out there whose story beyond the end of the last episode of the only seasoning should have happened. Browncoats, don't you agree with me? Or the same with Lurkers/Fivers for Babylon 5. Or Trekkers/Trekkies for Star Trek. We ALL deserved and still deserve and will always deserve as much of a series we fall in love with as the story can show us. Not what the executives want. Us....
Okay for a demand for the opener in my comment, I want at least 20 episodes per book, of at least 45 minutes each. Also, as true to the book as it can be made, and NO CHANGES in the appearance of a character if they're a certain sort of appearance. Okay, haha, I await all top producers of fantasy to come clambering over themselves to win the rights to my books... errr... okay who am I kidding really... LOL 🤣🤣🤣 (yep, I don't always take myself serious, but I hope I got my point across)
"Don't assume the IP's audience, assume the audience from the last iteration, then subtract. WE are starting from zero."
- my ideal Director and Showrunner, town hall meeting, inception stage
Am I lyin or am I dyin? haha
Taking responsibility for their actions/ the public holding them accountable would literally fix this weird entertainment era we are in.
Idiots and Bullies have established themselves as talented because an opportunity was given to them for reasons that have nothing to do with talent. So if they produce a bad product, it's not their fault, so Hollywood keeps making more bad products. It's not their fault, and we are criticized for not liking that product for reasons that has nothing to do with talent. Which is idiotic. They want to bully the public into liking their crap. What they don't get, WE WANT THEM TO SUCCEED IN MAKING ENTERTAINING, ENTERTAINMENT!!!!!!!
A lot of fantasy and science fiction is corporate cosplay as casting and stories seem to be all about virtue singling and problematic casting, gender switching.
Maybe just make good content instead of forcing everything on a nonexistent modern audience. Oh, and maybe don't try to subvert expectations and rewrite the story because you think you know better.
However they're showing a Rise in Dramas. So that's what we'll see for awhile.
Sci-fi and fantasy will be pushed aside for more of those because 'Numbers' that's all. Not the fact that people are tired of their movies being a hot bed for ideologies.
The field is infested with dogshit activist writing that's more concerned with ideology than with story and character arcs. It's the antithesis of art.
Thank you.
The issue is that many of these productions can be summarized as slop written by people who know less about the lore than average long time fan and are also often less intelligent. Especially Sci-fi tends to be popular among people interested in possible future, in what could be, what future might hold and these fans are often very curious about the world in their own way which might lead to having more thoughts about the subject than the showrunners. This is a sad state of things and I hope this changes because otherwise we might be treated to a very undesirable slop of even worse quality.
Make good shows and people will watch it. Try not to spend too much money.
And to think that in the 90s, the Star Trek franchise were putting out roughly 26 episodes per season. I don't think these streaming platforms understand the concept of sticking with something and developing a fan base. They’re just looking for instant results. Many shows on Netflix etc I've watched just abruptly end at the first season. Some were really good. Got sick of it so have cancelled 80% including Disney and Netshite. It's sad. Not that it hasn't happened before. 'Prey' in the 90s and most famously 'Firefly' which keeps stirring the rumour mill about a Disney reboot. God forbid!
It's really shameful and so insulting to the fans, who are attacked on top of it. Pray for better days ahead, love ya Nerd Cookies ❤
Its just as you said. Golden IP’s completely mismanaged and dumping money into terrible concepts and attempts. Agatha, and Skeleton Crew suffering from the bad faith previous shows in their respective IP’s have established even though they were solid shows. Its super sad. I really hope they turn it around
Hollywood should look at how other countries manage long-running franchises. For example, Gundam, Macross, Ultraman, Godzilla, and the various Louis Cha wuxia series (Condor Heroes, etc.)
That's because most if not all of the sci-fi stuff is trash and agitprop. All the sci-fi I watch now is old stuff. I'm currently going through X-Files, Battlestar Galactica, and Stargate: Atlantis. Outside of those are my EU Star Wars audio books that are not Disney Star Wars slop. I'm a legacy fan of Star Wars and they threw out the EU and then bastardized it. What Disney is putting out is not SW and disrespectful.
There is nothing good coming out in this day and age, unfortunately. Worse, they seem to despise the genre and only want to use it for "the message" and nothing else.
I'll argue that for the most part, a serialized story is better than episodic content. It gives you something to be invested in for a longer period. But, six to eight episodes ain't gonna cut it. You're cutting a lot of the main story, and all but deleting any side stories. One of the great things about older Sci Fi is how the story is made. You have one or two story-lines that are the center for twenty episodes, but you still get those random stand alone episodes that have nothing to do with the main story that flesh out the world and characters. They also let the creators have fun. I think it was the 200th SG1 episode that was basically an hour long fever dream. It was great. And, you don't see it anymore.
Personally, I'd say go with the anime model in the modern world. minimum 12 episodes, max 24 for a season. Plenty of time to actually build a story and a world, but short enough that you can take some time to wrap it up in a good way. Six episodes is a mini-series, not a full one. Spend the money better. Instead of 100 million on a handful of episodes with VFX every ten seconds, spend five million on each episode. Less eye candy, more story.
And for fraks sake, hire writers who can friggin write. Cool CGI shots do NOT make up for bad writing.
Great IPs and good actors can’t fix horrible scripts or bad plot ideas.
I’m encouraged by Feige hiring actual TV showrunners to work on Daredevil and hopefully other shows. Landman is a good example of good writing and a crisp story making an interesting show in a subject I had no interest in.
After so many tragic modern interpretations of much beloved IPs I would rather not have ANYTHING else tried for TV anymore.
In a few years maybe, after some serious moves from the shareholders of major production companies and TV studios to clear the activists and bad apples from the industry, but for now I have no hope at all :(
The lesson the idiots in Hollywood will take from this will 100% be "People are tired of Sci-fi and fantasy, time to bring back action films!" instead of reflecting on how badly their writing has become.
This got me to actually thinking about things. I don't watch much TV, and what streaming I watch is almost all old stuff. The only recent shows I watched had been Skeleton Crew and the Zorro series on Prime.
Silo and Severance both kind of remind me a little bit of the old Star Trek formula of only needing a couple of sets for the most part. They just dress them up differently depending on where in the Silo or Lumen they are supposed to be at.
Both those shows are amazing.
Another bitterly disappointing output has been the Witcher. They had everything they needed to make that into a monster show (Henry Cavill, plentysource material etc) and they just totally threw it all away because they hired show runners who thought they knew better than the fans what they wanted and needed.
The single thread that connects almost all of these failures is bad writing. I kind of think producers put all their eggs in 'production values' and forgot that the story is the single most important element. I don't think most producers can actually tell bad writing from good writing, and you'd think that would be one of the primary skills a producer would have. Then you look at people like James Cameron and Michael Bay, and they *clearly* don't give a shit about the quality of writing, and their films still make a ton of money. So for producers coming up, they figure they don't need to worry about writing, all that matters is the amount of money you spend. But that's not true, and it's much more not true for series.
But in the end, writing is all you've got to differentiate from the hundred other shows being launched every year.
Until they start respecting real writers, this is just going to keep happening.
Prior to "Avatar", Cameron cared a LOT about quality of writing; I think he's too wrapped up in himself right now to realize how bad his stuff is, but he had decades of films with great stories and dialogue.
Michael Bay with "Transformers", yes, and also all of the other franchises -- they're being run by the studio executives, it's so much worse than 20 years ago.
and by "big fantasy" we mean source materials that were "taken by the Dark Powers, tortured, and mutilated. The Shadow that bred them can only mock and cannot create new things."
The cost escalation must be a scam in the production process, somewhere. I started thinking through goodm sci fi from the last ten years and so much of the linear tv stuff is as good or better than Foundation, Dune Prophesy, Acolyte etc.
For example (allowing a little for budget): Killjoys, Pandora, Dark Matter, and even street-level stuff like Frequency, Colony, Agents of SHIELD, Blindspot. And omg does it benefit from not taking itself do damned seriously! Streaming seems to say to directors "this is expensive, everyone needs to be pompous af"
Popularity in Sci-fi & Fantasy Series come and go, some years are great others not so much.
Gotta make better stuff if they want better ratings lol
In the case of Star Trek, I think there is something like sheer spite in play. Star Trek has *fan made movies* which have a much better grasp of what made Star Trek memorable, but Paramount wanted to quash that instead of taking advantage of it. They should have looked at those fan-made films as if it was a minor-league which would develop the producers and story-writers who understood the stories; and then the best of them people could then "graduate" into major-budget motion pictures.
... the above observation brought to you by the fact that I just received an email with an update on the movie "Axanar", where the initial trailers _(so many years ago!)_ looked great, IMO.
I'm starving for good Sci-Fi shows. The writing's horrible these days
How can they not cancel Rings of Power? It's eating money.
Nothing more to add NC. apparently these content destroyers thought their product was not only great, but also what people want in scifi. Wrong x2.
There is always hope, but there is also hubris and greed that interfere more often than not.
When the producers of these IPs decided they were for indoctrinating the audience and not for entertaining the audience, they ensured this result.
Skewed corporate priorities, ideologically poisoned c-suites and writer's rooms make for sucky product.
Who knew?
This ^
The shows suck. They all more or less look the same or have the same cinematography queues. The last grand slam for a SciFi show was Mandalorian S1.
You should check out AMC+'s Interview with a Vampire; I love the updates they've done, I was sold much faster than the emperor in Foundation.
LoTR Rings of Power needed to actually relate to the base IP, not mess with it. RoP was rubbish
Apple is the clear leader in terms of sci-fi: Silo, Dark Matter, Invasion, Monarch, For All Mankind, Constellation, Sunny.
People rage about DEI and Woke when the truth is much more simple and obvious. Modern media sucks because they're badly written pieces of trash. All the money, special effects, and diverse casts don't matter if the story sucks and the characters are boring and/or unlikable. The loss of quality control when it comes to these major IP's is jarring and says more about the studious then the audience. What's worse is that the entertainment industry refuses to take responsibility for the mess they have made. They would rather get into a shouting match with their audience/customers rather then try to fix the problem. I somewhat get why they try to pass the blame onto the audience since the jobs and careers of many are on the line with these productions. However, its created this toxic cycle of everyone attacking each other and no one taking any responsibility. The studios need to take a step back and take a hard look at how they have messed up and start putting real work into making things right.
Rings of Power continues to be a capital offense and as such, everyone involved in making it deserve capital punishment.
stick to the original source material/lore and you won’t go wrong,otherwise develope your original content instead of riding the coattails of the past 🤔
Thanks Elaine
I'm really hoping Netflix renews Star Trek prodigy for a 3rd season. Seems unlikely at this point though
Disney with their woke narrative hasn't done Sci-Fi any favours.
Landman is winning because the writing is great. The story is interesting, compelling. The acting is really good.
It is for sure all the mismanagement and not creating good stories.
They did this to themselves.
Who's to blame? That's 'cos Who was on first!
Silo, and Severance are excellent shows.
a famous IP doesn't help much if your show is underwhelming, even more so if sayed IP became a hallmark for lame entertainment.
sci fi and fantasy are already harder to sell to a massive audience so when all sorts of messaging, virtue signaling and poor writing is combined with that no wonder many are failing.
SILO is good they are trying to milk 3 books into a longer show. Season 3 and 4 should be great.
Most great sci fi shows get 5 seasons. Battlestar, Fringe, Alias, some others. Game of thrones maybe should have stopped at 5😜
Smallville did 10 seasons. And more than 20 episodes a season. Why did they achieve that? The xfiles also 10 but very uneven quality.
I think the main characters have to be lovable. Its not real life. But i think that is why. Who did you really love as a character on any sci fi show?
I could be wrong. But im addicted to watching sci fi tv. 📺 And that is the only thing. 🍏 tv $$$.
Did DR WHO get a mention in this report?
They threw that show out the window. Seriously... no one that I personally know is still watching it.
Pretty easy to figure out why....terrible writing and poor quality. If they want to reach the same heights as the first few seasons of GoT then they have to put in the same amount of effort.
I enjoy Foundation. It's not Asimov's Foundation, but as it's own thing, it's fun.
Genre fans have standards too, who knew.
Transformers ONE...
star trek 31 is why. No one can pay me to watch that.
Honestly, they need experienced, talented and MORAL writers. They somehow think that normal people are interested in seeing the vile crap in Star Trek, or Star Wars, etc... They think they are being avant gard, but they aren't they are being perverted. Avant gard these days would be telling stories of trad families, or good defeating evil, instead of it being ok to be evil. IDIC meant for people to accept each other regardless of immutable qualities such as race or sex. But take it to it's extremes... Not ok.
BTW, massive budgets were always a thing with Star Trek. TOS was the most expensive show in it's time. TNG was also. I remember how they said it was $1 million per episode. I think Stargate was very expensive too. Just goes with the genre. What they need to be able to justify such budgets is excellent writing.
Excellent points. I hate that I am constantly put in a position to stop watching, what could have been an excellent show, because of offensive content.