I really like that you make these kind of videos, internet experts can say what they want but at the end of the day it's what actually happens in car that counts. Thanks
I overhauled my stock 1984 302 10 years ago and installed a high volume oil pump. I have had no issues with it. 65 lbs driving/50 lbs at idle oil pressure.
I'm a mechanical engineer, and high volume doesn't necessarily raise up the pressure. It just increases the volumetric flow. The pressure increases with the size of the impellers/gears or the speed of the rotor. Flow increases with the size of the inlet/outlet ports.
You can usually always fix the drive problem fairly cheap. I always have and have never had a drive failure. But you are spot on the "need" factor on the street. For racing I do it for insurance nothing more. A high volume might recover quicker from a pick-up starvation event.
Sounds about right for Windsors,I quit playing with them decades past.FE's lose too much oil to rocker shafts.I put a 71 holley jet in the FEs heads to keep oil to crank/cam.And with Rhodes lifters HI-vol is a must.Next for my fleet of FEs is roller cam/rockers. Just no more cavitating oil pumps waiting for oil to trickle down.
hey man i was just watching your show on oil pumps I had a holden worked 308 the pressure from the high volume oil pump the oil filter would bust notice that you have a steel blade fan i removed it and put a electric fan wow what a great difference it made you can hear the drag from the fan
This truck was thrown together to get it on the road. 351 with aluminum radiator going in this fall. People tell me electric fans all the time, and honestly my galaxie that had a fan on a thermostats and all that still did better in the end with a flex fan. I drive this junk across country and would rather rely on something mechanical. The flex fans are nice because the get thinner at higher rpm and the drag is greatly reduced.
Yes the fan is a big drag on the engine not only dose it take hp it also takes away fuel mileage I always tell people to remove the stock fan nd replace it with an electric one gaining power nd fuel mileage
Oil volume is determined by the size of the oil pump gear. Oil pressure is determined by the load strength of the bypass spring located inside the oil pump unit. HV oil pumps can be bought or modified to produce standard oil pressure or high oil pressure. A good melonized distributor gear should be compatible with camshafts made of steel, iron and ductile iron (check with cam manufacture). They are design to have very low friction and product a long life. I should have my 302 on the road in 6 to 8 months using a HV oil pump with standard pressure, and with a melonized distributor gear. I will keep you posted. Have a nice day.
don't forget that the high volume can break the pin on the distributor drive....so people who run high volume, high pressure oil pumps either drill their distributor for a second pin or drill the existing pin for a larger pin so the strain of the oil pump does not break it...My experience on 385 series motors and an issue for most Ford Distributors with non stock oil pumps.
My neighbor had one in his 80 resto/modded Corvette. He was running a stock pan. It was pumping most of the oil out of the pan,faster than it could drain back in. Needless to say that it F'd up his engine.He had a crate engine installed. I ran one,but I had a Moroso 7qt pan. I never had any problems with it in my old Camaro.
There is a big difference between a show car or a classic that is driven around slowly and doesn’t see over 4,000 rpms for more then a few seconds at a time and a high performance manual transmission street car that is going to spend most of its life at 7-9,000 rpm either accelerating out of a corner or decelerating into a corner. A dry sump oiling system is a absolute must to keep a true street engine alive for more then a few hundred miles in my opinion. This is especially true when talking about modern kit cars that can pull some serious Gs on the corners. The small block ford is usually the engine of choice for these cars as it is lightweight and more compact then a small block chevy.
You're against high volume pumps in stock small block Fords, what about stock big block Fords ? I found your channel when I was building my 360FE for my 76 F-250 4x4, you have been such a great resource for information and how to. Thank you! and keep it up.
That one I am not sure on! It's been awhile since I was in an fe and can't remember much about their oil pump drive shaft and cam gear. My opinion is that unless your into the solid lifter game, stay away from them, they are just dragging your engine down and wearing your can hear. On a warm engine that's only idling with 25 or less oil psi, I'd say slap one of those in if you have the pan off. There's something more important with the fe's regarding the drilling of some oiling hole. I have never done it, but it's definitely something for you to look into!
Thanks. Iv seen guys drill out the oiling hole but have yet to do it to mine. The thought of drilling into my block gives me anxiety. cold idle is about 75 psi, warm is about 40 psi but under power its back to about 75 psi.
Eek - your engine, your choice... However, you seem to have completely overlooked the pressure relief valve in the oil pump, that limits the maximum pressures - you do sort of have something right in that the pressure the pump supplies is that required to pump the oil through ALL the interal leakage paths in the engine - normally just bearings and valve gear. The volume per revolution of the pump is roughly constant, so it is normally sized for enough flow to maintain pressure against the idle leakage and, as rpm increases, so does the flow. You have part of it right in that the observed oil pressure increase is because the pump is trying to pump more oil volume through the same internal leakage but without further bleeding off of the flow the pressures will just continue to rise which increases the loading on the pump and can even burst oil filters in extreme cases. The pump's pressure relief valve adds controlled leakage to maintain the pressure. So, why is the high volume pump a mistake? Because the pump is using more engine power to pump the oil through the relief valve that is providing no additional oiling to the engine, with a correctly sized pump, think OEM, there is some additional capacity for when the engine wears, but you are not wasting any additional power that could aid engine output and/or efficiency. With the Ford, as you say, there is a problem witht he drive and many, many engines have failed from shearing or striping the dive hex's - if any of you do decide to run a high capacity pump, or a high pressure pump, please replace these parts with stronger aftermarket parts. On high pressure pumps, anything more than that required is also causing aditional loading and power loss from the engine. As has been pointed out, that mechanical fan is also costing a lot of power as, depending on rpm, it can be 20+ hp lost right there - electric fans just work when you need them and improve both power and economy.
Ford distributor gear retainer/drive pins are suppose to shear and stop both the pump and the distributor when excess load is encountered. Twisting off the weaker pump shaft and allowing the ignition to continue to run the engine is a problem. I use a 100 db peizio beeper $4 with an oil pressure light. The beeper sounds instantly when the pressure drops below it's rating. 5-8-15 psi switches available. Saved me one engine already. 👍
Since we can prime an oil system at 4000 engine rpm with an electric drill and the oil being at room temperature, How much HP can a pump be sucking up?? Do you have a 20 ho drill?? Think about it.
@@hotrodray6802 I know this is a year later to your reply, but I've tested a stock volume vs high volume oil pump at the track, the stock pump was a constant .15 seconds faster in the 1/8th mile than the hi volume. That's quite a bit of free horsepower.
You are overlooking two basic points. Pressure and volume are only directly related when flow is consistent. High volume pumps pump more oil (20%) per revolution until the bypass valve opens at the specified maximum pressure and the oil recirculates inside the pump. (Some dump into the pan.) HV pumps cannot over flow the top end beyond what orifices allow. The excess bypasses at the pump. High pressure pumps have a stronger bypass spring obviously to make higher pressure before bypassing. This higher pressure can flow more oil through the orifices. A stronger drive shaft should be used on SBF so the driveshaft does not twist off before the drive gear pin shears and stops the ignition.
Thanks for the info. when I rebuilt my 289 way back in the late 70s, I used a Melling High Volume pump. Still have it, but I only drive the car on the weekends for little joy ride trips. I have high pressure around 80psi when I'm up around 2000RPM. I'm going to switch it back to the standard pump next time I have the pan off to replace the rear main seal (needs a rear seal - gee, should have been my first clue about the high volume pump?)
Just change the bypass pressure spring. It shouldn't be more than 55 anyway. You probably bought a high volume / high pressure combination pump. They come STD. HV HP HV/HP
Thanks TH289 - I really appreciate this - cause I have put " High Volume " pumps in all my engines in the past. I had monster pressure on the streets cause somebody said I had to do it. ;-P Oh well thanks a bunch and love your chevy van conversion. You are a super nice guy I can tell - my best friend is a mechanic - he'll be happy to know this. He's a MOPAR guy - I'm an everything guy... he's into Creedance and I'm into Pink !!! Thanks bud!
I put standard bearings in a high mileage 5.0 at idle when hot it’s at 17-20 psi when cold it’s 33psi I feel that’s a little low , that’s why I’m looking into a HV pump
What weight oil are you running? 33 cold does seem low but having 17-20 hot is more than good. As long as it doesn’t creep down and it jumps when you get on the throttle, you’re good. You only need 10psi per 1000 rpm. So at idle, you could be safe at 10psi and cruising safe at say, 20psi. I’m willing to bet you have close to 40 as soon as you roll on the throttle. Wouldn’t worry about it.
Have a fresh FE 390. I think the person at rebuild may have installed wrong size bearings as the oil pressure is 50 psi on start but as oil gets hot pressure decreases to 25 psi at cruise and drops to 10 psi at idle. Am considering hi volume oil pump to make sure I have oil where it is needed. Don’t think oil pressure sensor is problem, went to 15/40 wt oil and got about 1 or 2 psi increase. What is your take on this?
A high volume pump still contains a bypass which will open at max psi (say 50lbs). They're not capable of increasing pressure, just volume. Good for engines with a lot of internal clearances - high mileage applications.
i have the 302 mustang 1992 5.0 i am battling low oil pressure older motor ; but you convinced me not to opt for high volume ; since all my driving is just modest street ; given the smaller clearances with ford; do you suggest aftermarket pod gauges ; for more reliable readings; since i am reading only factory dashboard original gauges; would thicker viscosity help ? maybe 10w 40
no i was just saying the difference between the Cleveland and winsor oil pick up tubes Cleveland can crack winsor have a support tab to prevent this from happening
What about a big block 390 fe ford I bought a Mellings high volume pump I haven’t put it in yet and it’s a really tame 390 what are your thoughts and it has hydraulic flat tappets also
hey mate your clips are educational i have a Ford f 150 truck 4x4 model 5ltr winsor gt40 heads weiland intake stage 2 cam electric dizzy alloy 2 in rise 600 holley i am running 65 main jets what would you run in the main i trying to get fuel economy but the diff is 411 gears sterling diff it runs and revs smooth up to 6500 c6 auto it uses oil but no smoke on start or hi revs would a faulty pcv valve cause oil use or main jets washing oil out of the cylinders
ThunderHead289 I have the hv pump in my 289. It has a solid lifter cam. But I know that the oil pump drive shaft is a week point for the Ford's. I replaced mine with a ARP hardened oil pump shaft. I did go with the deep slump pan. But my 289 is a street/strip engine.
Just remember that at 70 psi, the pressure between your distributor gear and cam gear is high! The more pressure, the more wear on those contacting surfaces. Try to run a thinner oil!
It’s myth lol now with the Ford Fe big block!!! You want a high volume oil pump!!! Plus what needs to be done! Is where the pump Mary’s to the block you need to open the factory casting flaw on the block in relation to the pump to 7/16 bit diameter and quick work with a dremmel port it so the oil actually reaches the lifter rail creating proper oil pressure to the whole engine 👍not myth just fact! Do it to my big block Fe’s all the time
I had a s10 with a 360 cubic inch small block in it with a high volume oil pump with a stock 5 quart pan. That thing will rev up so fast to 7000 rpm that it will suck the pan dry.
That's because you need a bigger than stock pan. That's why when you look at aftermarket high capacity pans they only ever really ever see then recommend HV oil pumps
Totally. Because you had a lot of pressure - the pressure is more resistance and caused a lot of wear. I only ever use them in low pressure situations 👍 Solid lifters flow more oil and result in a lower oil pressure
I went to beach bend Kentucky to pro 5.0 shoot out ford racing was there they said the same thing you did that's when I went back to the stock pump didn't bother to buy new one lol just put the old one back on I've messed with small block Ford's for years nd the real draw back to them is the puss pore heads I used a set of trick flow heads nd it was a whole different engine
I completely rebuilt my FE390 and had a major failure during break in. All five cam bearings melted, and the main bearings (1 through 4) were worn but no smearing. Main and rod clearances were set up at .002 and the cam spun free when installing. I did install a .005 undersize Cloyes timing set. I primed the oil system with a drill motor and used Joe Gibbs break in oil. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
Is sounds like that during the rebuild dirt got into the cam bearing drilling’s and starved them of oil. If I had to guess - that or they weren’t clocked correctly durring install to allow for proper oiling
@@ThunderHead289 All oil galleries were super clean. The cam bearings were installed with the oil holes at the 6 O'clock position. Is this correct. or...?
What do you recommend on a 302 with 20 psi oil pressure at idle and at higher rpm's (revved engine up to 3,000 and noted this)? I bought a truck with a 302, and it exhibits this trait. I don't know the history of the motor, but it seems to run fine (no rod knock, no oil usage, etc.). For peace of mind, I plan to change the oil pump. I had heard of the concern with the smaller distributor gear, and staying away from a high volume pump, and this video reinforces that concern. However, I suspect this is an older engine, with wider journal clearances. You prefaced your recommendation against a high volume pump with the condition of normal journal clearances; again, I suspect that is not the case with this engine, due to engine wear. Obviously, rebuilding the engine would be ideal, but this is a budget project, and do not want to go to the expense of rebuilding, if I can avoid it. Should I stay with a stock replacement oil pump, or would this be a situation where a high volume pump might be warranted?
Jeffrey Harper If you have 20 psi of oil pressure when warmed up at idle then you don’t need a new pump. It’s also normal for oil pressure to increase with rpm because the pump is in turn is spinning faster.
@@AustinHarmon1994 he's saying the oil pressure stays at 20psi up to 3000rpm. I still wouldn't worry too much if it runs fine. Usually don't need too much pressure, as long as you have some.
Turned out to be a bad oil pressure gauge. I did change the pump (standard) and the gauge. Now 30psi at idle and 50psi at 3,000 rpm w/ 10w40. . 5,000 miles later and no issues.
Just one question thunderhead ? Who come most all guys talk about ford,chevy but not mopar. I like your video,s but like everyone else you won't say anything about mopar's I'm building a 440. I have a 7qt oil pan and a high volume oil pump. Standard oil pump running at higher rpm oil pressure is about 44lbs. High volume oil pump pressure is 73lbs running 60 to 70 miles per hour. Idle reg oil pump 15 and high vol. pump. Is35 to 40. Mopar oil pressure should be 45 to 65 running. Hot running reg oil pump drops to 38 to low. High vol. oil pump 73 to 75 to high. So I guess what I'm asking is I'm not a mechanic can't afford one so like everyone else. Go to you tube. Like I said I like your video when you talk about your ford truck and chevy please throw mopar in their I know it would help me. Was looking for how to shim the oil spring in a v8 mopar to get more pressure with the reg oil pump. Thanks and keep up the video's
Iv been doing that since before roadkill!!!! Very seldom taught old hot rod trick!!! Glad the roadkill guys have made it much more popular! It's good stuff.
the spring in the pump sets the pressure, if you have an fe ford with a front sump you should run 5 qts in the pan plus whatever the filter holds, high volume and high pressure pumps are different the increase in pressure from high volume is marginal in my trials, i also think std pumps for the street are fine but lifters have nothing to do with it. smokie said 10 psi per 1000 rpm and 10-15 psi at idle was fine if smokie said it its fact.
let me ask you this - what creates pressure in a fluid system - it depends upon the amount of volume you are attempting to positively force through an orifice. orifice size being the same, you will have more pressure with more volume. solid lifters are for high rpm applications which require more free flow of oil, and the lifters themselves have larger orifices. so between solids and hydraulic, you will see a tangible difference.
I'm a little late coming to comment here , just found your channel. That seems to be good advise. Why not touch on the types of oil pumps in the different makes if you are going to compare them to one another? To my knowledge, the Ford has a gerotor type and the Chevy has a spur gear type. Some high performance Chevy pumps are actually designed like the Ford style pump. So that being said, that could be one more good reason you can get away with HV pump in a Chevy easier, the spur gear pump isn't as efficient as the Ford pump.
OMG, Dude, your so cool! Why do you use that brand of oil filter? Have you inspected the inside of a few and have you determined there ok for your engine needs? I inspected a few and selected a different brand due to internal reasons for use in my street applications. Other filters I have used seem to look different inside. So, I use a different brand that I feel more comfortable with. Cut one open before and/or another after use and take a good look. All the ones I've ever used like that one, do not meet my standards. I do think there may be oil filters that could make a difference in your engines health. I'm not an expert and this is just my opinion. Check it out for yourself and decide. What I'm saying is that for me, not all oil filters are made the same.
I'm going to a bigger oil pan and they usually more than not recommend HV pumps I would not run one with a stock pan. There's not enough capacity to justify it
That’s old folklore that has been passed around forever - let me know when you have 4 quarts in your oiling system. It’s not possible if you have a full 5 quarts
@@ThunderHead289 I mean don't people just match what they have to what they're doing? Stock pan stock oil pump Aftermarket 7 qt pan aftermarket pump? I'm not saying it'll pump dry in saying why use something you don't need? Like when guys buy heads that flow 300 cfm but drive around the street with a dual plane intake and low compression below 9.5 yeah itll work but why spend the money?
I needed a high volume pump to maintain pressure at low rpm - this truck had an engine with solid lifters in it, which have a less restriction. High volumes are also great for worn out engines as you can usually get another 20k out of them by boosting the oil pressure back into spec. Regarding the solids, it was the first engine I ever built, and I didn’t need the cam profile. But one thing I will say for sure - it sure beat having a ticky hydraulic lifter - and no, with lockers, a guy never has to reset the lash on solids.
@@ThunderHead289 hmmm I might just go solid..I thought about once or twice but maybe time to reexamine it. I was just gonna go hydro flat because, well, I know I can make enough power and don't really need a heavier, more expsensive roller cam/lifter. Although they're nice. No break ins but it's easier to rev a solid. Especially in our short stroke engines.
My car has serious blow by... went with thicker oil to stop it... didn't work.. 20w50 to be exact... and my oil pressure has always been at 50 under throttle just shy of that at idle
+Joe Septien do you have a pcv valve on it? Sounds like what happens when they get stuck open- you can also do a compression test to verify. I would look to those two items next
ThunderHead289 would I need to measure for the length or should I just go back to the front sump oil pan it came with instead? I putting this 302 in a 79 ford f100 ,the reason I am asking !!!
+Robert Brown a pan that worked in my f100 on a roller engine was the factory truck pans and pick up. Generally any factory unit has an associated pick up. If you do buy an aftermarket pan, make sure it comes with a pick up unit.
ThunderHead289 I did not think of that when I bought my rear sump pan , the one I got was based on years 88-96 will that make a difference? Or should I get another front sump one , with the pickup tube based on years 62-82 ? Reason , asking cause the oil pan that came with motor ! I sand blasted it in Order to try cleaning it up in order to try to repaint it , but in doing so I thing I messed it up !!
Since we can prime an oil system at 4000 engine rpm with an electric drill and the oil being at room temperature, How much HP can a pump be sucking up?? Do you have a 20 ho drill?? Think about it.
There seems to be a hp loss argument. Consider this. If you can prime an engine with room temperature oil with a quarter inch 2 HP electric drill at 2000 rpm, (that's 4000 engine rpm.).. How much HP is the oil pump sucking??! THINK. 😱
The sump isn't going to bounce loose or anything, it's bolted on unlike the Chevy. If it's a front sump pan, the tube is short enough to not cause issues, if it's a rear sump pan, there is a main bolt that has a stud on it for the tube to bolt to for stability
You are wrong. A hi volume oil pump has zero to do with the oil pressure of the pump. You can have hi volume oil pump with standard 35psi pressure or you can have hi volume and hi pressure at 60+ psi however , Volume has zero to do with the pressure a pump turns out. Think I am wrong ? Read Smokey Yunuicks power secrets book or better yet look at the Mellings oil pump parts numbers or call there tech line and you again will find you are not correct . Here is the problem with your current thinking of running a high volume oil pump with a stock 5 QT oil pan. The hi volume oil pump will indeed suck your oil pan dry before the oil has a chance to return to the pan causing a air pocket in your oil supply. In Smokey Yunicks book he stresses clearly you never run a hi volume oil pump on anything that does not have a dry sump system with a sizable reserve tank of oil so you can never run out of oil . Now you can do what you want, but me , I would never EVER question Smokey .
There are chromoly oil pump drives for about 19.00. It eliminates spark scatter that can happen with a flexing drive shaft. Solid lifters also require less pressure and volume. On FE Fords you can close off the lifter galleries completely if you are running solid lifters. Ford didn't drill them out on solid lifter performance engines. What happens with some high volume/high pressure pumps is they shear the roll pin that holds the driven gear on the distributor.
I really like that you make these kind of videos, internet experts can say what they want but at the end of the day it's what actually happens in car that counts. Thanks
I overhauled my stock 1984 302 10 years ago and installed a high volume oil pump. I have had no issues with it. 65 lbs driving/50 lbs at idle oil pressure.
probly had very good bearing wear after the high volume oil pump
I'm a mechanical engineer, and high volume doesn't necessarily raise up the pressure. It just increases the volumetric flow. The pressure increases with the size of the impellers/gears or the speed of the rotor. Flow increases with the size of the inlet/outlet ports.
You can usually always fix the drive problem fairly cheap. I always have and have never had a drive failure. But you are spot on the "need" factor on the street. For racing I do it for insurance nothing more. A high volume might recover quicker from a pick-up starvation event.
Thanks for being the voice of experience. When it comes to the internet, stupid people repeat stupid stuff.
Sounds about right for Windsors,I quit playing with them decades past.FE's lose too much oil to rocker shafts.I put a 71 holley jet in the FEs heads to keep oil to crank/cam.And with Rhodes lifters HI-vol is a must.Next for my fleet of FEs is roller cam/rockers.
Just no more cavitating oil pumps waiting for oil to trickle down.
hey man i was just watching your show on oil pumps I had a holden worked 308 the pressure from the high volume oil pump the oil filter would bust notice that you have a steel blade fan i removed it and put a electric fan wow what a great difference it made you can hear the drag from the fan
This truck was thrown together to get it on the road. 351 with aluminum radiator going in this fall. People tell me electric fans all the time, and honestly my galaxie that had a fan on a thermostats and all that still did better in the end with a flex fan. I drive this junk across country and would rather rely on something mechanical. The flex fans are nice because the get thinner at higher rpm and the drag is greatly reduced.
Race prep,blueprint standard pump with die grinder for street engines,high volume pumps have less pressure .
Yes the fan is a big drag on the engine not only dose it take hp it also takes away fuel mileage I always tell people to remove the stock fan nd replace it with an electric one gaining power nd fuel mileage
Oil volume is determined by the size of the oil pump gear. Oil pressure is determined by the load strength of the bypass spring located inside the oil pump unit. HV oil pumps can be bought or modified to produce standard oil pressure or high oil pressure. A good melonized distributor gear should be compatible with camshafts made of steel, iron and ductile iron (check with cam manufacture). They are design to have very low friction and product a long life. I should have my 302 on the road in 6 to 8 months using a HV oil pump with standard pressure, and with a melonized distributor gear. I will keep you posted. Have a nice day.
This man knows
don't forget that the high volume can break the pin on the distributor drive....so people who run high volume, high pressure oil pumps either drill their distributor for a second pin or drill the existing pin for a larger pin so the strain of the oil pump does not break it...My experience on 385 series motors and an issue for most Ford Distributors with non stock oil pumps.
My neighbor had one in his 80 resto/modded Corvette. He was running a stock pan. It was pumping most of the oil out of the pan,faster than it could drain back in. Needless to say that it F'd up his engine.He had a crate engine installed. I ran one,but I had a Moroso 7qt pan. I never had any problems with it in my old Camaro.
There is a big difference between a show car or a classic that is driven around slowly and doesn’t see over 4,000 rpms for more then a few seconds at a time and a high performance manual transmission street car that is going to spend most of its life at 7-9,000 rpm either accelerating out of a corner or decelerating into a corner. A dry sump oiling system is a absolute must to keep a true street engine alive for more then a few hundred miles in my opinion. This is especially true when talking about modern kit cars that can pull some serious Gs on the corners. The small block ford is usually the engine of choice for these cars as it is lightweight and more compact then a small block chevy.
You're against high volume pumps in stock small block Fords, what about stock big block Fords ?
I found your channel when I was building my 360FE for my 76 F-250 4x4, you have been such a great resource for information and how to. Thank you! and keep it up.
That one I am not sure on! It's been awhile since I was in an fe and can't remember much about their oil pump drive shaft and cam gear. My opinion is that unless your into the solid lifter game, stay away from them, they are just dragging your engine down and wearing your can hear. On a warm engine that's only idling with 25 or less oil psi, I'd say slap one of those in if you have the pan off. There's something more important with the fe's regarding the drilling of some oiling hole. I have never done it, but it's definitely something for you to look into!
Thanks. Iv seen guys drill out the oiling hole but have yet to do it to mine. The thought of drilling into my block gives me anxiety. cold idle is about 75 psi, warm is about 40 psi but under power its back to about 75 psi.
i wouldnt worry one bit about running a high volume oil pump then! thats plenty of oil pressure!
hahaha, i forgot to say i am running a high volume oil pump
+Igganopolis Tron than that would explain all of that!
Eek - your engine, your choice...
However, you seem to have completely overlooked the pressure relief valve in the oil pump, that limits the maximum pressures - you do sort of have something right in that the pressure the pump supplies is that required to pump the oil through ALL the interal leakage paths in the engine - normally just bearings and valve gear.
The volume per revolution of the pump is roughly constant, so it is normally sized for enough flow to maintain pressure against the idle leakage and, as rpm increases, so does the flow. You have part of it right in that the observed oil pressure increase is because the pump is trying to pump more oil volume through the same internal leakage but without further bleeding off of the flow the pressures will just continue to rise which increases the loading on the pump and can even burst oil filters in extreme cases. The pump's pressure relief valve adds controlled leakage to maintain the pressure.
So, why is the high volume pump a mistake? Because the pump is using more engine power to pump the oil through the relief valve that is providing no additional oiling to the engine, with a correctly sized pump, think OEM, there is some additional capacity for when the engine wears, but you are not wasting any additional power that could aid engine output and/or efficiency.
With the Ford, as you say, there is a problem witht he drive and many, many engines have failed from shearing or striping the dive hex's - if any of you do decide to run a high capacity pump, or a high pressure pump, please replace these parts with stronger aftermarket parts.
On high pressure pumps, anything more than that required is also causing aditional loading and power loss from the engine.
As has been pointed out, that mechanical fan is also costing a lot of power as, depending on rpm, it can be 20+ hp lost right there - electric fans just work when you need them and improve both power and economy.
Ford distributor gear retainer/drive pins are suppose to shear and stop both the pump and the distributor when excess load is encountered.
Twisting off the weaker pump shaft and allowing the ignition to continue to run the engine is a problem.
I use a 100 db peizio beeper $4 with an oil pressure light. The beeper sounds instantly when the pressure drops below it's rating. 5-8-15 psi switches available. Saved me one engine already. 👍
Since we can prime an oil system at 4000 engine rpm with an electric drill and the oil being at room temperature,
How much HP can a pump be sucking up??
Do you have a 20 ho drill??
Think about it.
@@hotrodray6802 I know this is a year later to your reply, but I've tested a stock volume vs high volume oil pump at the track, the stock pump was a constant .15 seconds faster in the 1/8th mile than the hi volume. That's quite a bit of free horsepower.
You are overlooking two basic points.
Pressure and volume are only directly related when flow is consistent.
High volume pumps pump more oil (20%) per revolution until the bypass valve opens at the specified maximum pressure and the oil recirculates inside the pump. (Some dump into the pan.) HV pumps cannot over flow the top end beyond what orifices allow. The excess bypasses at the pump.
High pressure pumps have a stronger bypass spring obviously to make higher pressure before bypassing. This higher pressure can flow more oil through the orifices.
A stronger drive shaft should be used on SBF so the driveshaft does not twist off before the drive gear pin shears and stops the ignition.
BTW
Oil pressure collapses the aireated bubbles in the circulating oil.
Ok makes perfect sense what pump would you recomend to replace the stock pump what brand ?? thanks what about a heavy duty oil pump shaft ??
Thanks for the info. when I rebuilt my 289 way back in the late 70s, I used a Melling High Volume pump. Still have it, but I only drive the car on the weekends for little joy ride trips. I have high pressure around 80psi when I'm up around 2000RPM. I'm going to switch it back to the standard pump next time I have the pan off to replace the rear main seal (needs a rear seal - gee, should have been my first clue about the high volume pump?)
Just change the bypass pressure spring. It shouldn't be more than 55 anyway.
You probably bought a high volume / high pressure combination pump.
They come
STD.
HV
HP
HV/HP
Thanks TH289 - I really appreciate this - cause I have put " High Volume " pumps in all my engines in the past. I had monster pressure on the streets cause somebody said I had to do it. ;-P Oh well thanks a bunch and love your chevy van conversion. You are a super nice guy I can tell - my best friend is a mechanic - he'll be happy to know this. He's a MOPAR guy - I'm an everything guy... he's into Creedance and I'm into Pink !!! Thanks bud!
thanks for the kind words!
I put standard bearings in a high mileage 5.0 at idle when hot it’s at 17-20 psi when cold it’s 33psi I feel that’s a little low , that’s why I’m looking into a HV pump
What weight oil are you running? 33 cold does seem low but having 17-20 hot is more than good. As long as it doesn’t creep down and it jumps when you get on the throttle, you’re good. You only need 10psi per 1000 rpm. So at idle, you could be safe at 10psi and cruising safe at say, 20psi. I’m willing to bet you have close to 40 as soon as you roll on the throttle. Wouldn’t worry about it.
Have a fresh FE 390. I think the person at rebuild may have installed wrong size bearings as the oil pressure is 50 psi on start but as oil gets hot pressure decreases to 25 psi at cruise and drops to 10 psi at idle. Am considering hi volume oil pump to make sure I have oil where it is needed. Don’t think oil pressure sensor is problem, went to 15/40 wt oil and got about 1 or 2 psi increase. What is your take on this?
A high volume pump still contains a bypass which will open at max psi (say 50lbs). They're not capable of increasing pressure, just volume. Good for engines with a lot of internal clearances - high mileage applications.
i have the 302 mustang 1992 5.0 i am battling low oil pressure older motor ; but you convinced me not to opt for high volume ; since all my driving is just modest street ; given the smaller clearances with ford; do you suggest aftermarket pod gauges ; for more reliable readings; since i am reading only factory dashboard original gauges; would thicker viscosity help ? maybe 10w 40
You have to understand most myths about old V8 engines started from hillbilly's in the 60's & 70's.
my grandpa did it so it must be right type of stuff indeed.
no i was just saying the difference between the Cleveland and winsor oil pick up tubes Cleveland can crack winsor have a support tab to prevent this from happening
What about a big block 390 fe ford I bought a Mellings high volume pump I haven’t put it in yet and it’s a really tame 390 what are your thoughts and it has hydraulic flat tappets also
Run it. FE's are noted for low pressure at idle.
Low pressure is a clearance issue.
A proper rebuild will cure it. When rebuilding do the usual FE oil upgrades.
I understand that you want reliableaty with the flex fan but there is a big noticeably with it removed built ford tuff 👍
Fabulous Fords Forever ....
hey mate your clips are educational i have a Ford f 150 truck 4x4 model 5ltr winsor gt40 heads weiland intake stage 2 cam electric dizzy alloy 2 in rise 600 holley i am running 65 main jets what would you run in the main i trying to get fuel economy but the diff is 411 gears sterling diff it runs and revs smooth up to 6500 c6 auto it uses oil but no smoke on start or hi revs would a faulty pcv valve cause oil use or main jets washing oil out of the cylinders
High volume pumps take more power away to run, so on street engines I like stock pumps. Extreme high rpms yes , run a high volume pump.
+76v8jeep I like to run them on my solid lifter stuff, keeps the pressures where I want them since less there are less restrictions for high rpm use
ThunderHead289 I have the hv pump in my 289. It has a solid lifter cam. But I know that the oil pump drive shaft is a week point for the Ford's. I replaced mine with a ARP hardened oil pump shaft. I did go with the deep slump pan. But my 289 is a street/strip engine.
And it is set up for the Nitrous system. Hidden of course. Lol
@@jamesbascombe8274 the oil pump drive shaft on the Chevys are kind of weak too and tend to snap when you use hv pumps
I had to replace my cam bearings after a "New Rebuild" from a local shop. I went with HV pump. I'm at 70PSI.
Just remember that at 70 psi, the pressure between your distributor gear and cam gear is high!
The more pressure, the more wear on those contacting surfaces. Try to run a thinner oil!
Pull the pump and change the bypass spring.
It’s myth lol now with the Ford Fe big block!!! You want a high volume oil pump!!! Plus what needs to be done! Is where the pump Mary’s to the block you need to open the factory casting flaw on the block in relation to the pump to 7/16 bit diameter and quick work with a dremmel port it so the oil actually reaches the lifter rail creating proper oil pressure to the whole engine 👍not myth just fact! Do it to my big block Fe’s all the time
I had a s10 with a 360 cubic inch small block in it with a high volume oil pump with a stock 5 quart pan. That thing will rev up so fast to 7000 rpm that it will suck the pan dry.
Yes, some setups will suck up all the oil out of the pan. Stick with a stock oil pump or something similar.
That's because you need a bigger than stock pan. That's why when you look at aftermarket high capacity pans they only ever really ever see then recommend HV oil pumps
That is a drain back problem in the heads and valley ports.
Restricting oil to the pushrods works.
Built circle track engines for years.
I ran high volume oil pump on 5.0 for roller cam it would eat the distributer gear up in no time went back to stock problem solved
Totally.
Because you had a lot of pressure - the pressure is more resistance and caused a lot of wear.
I only ever use them in low pressure situations 👍
Solid lifters flow more oil and result in a lower oil pressure
I went to beach bend Kentucky to pro 5.0 shoot out ford racing was there they said the same thing you did that's when I went back to the stock pump didn't bother to buy new one lol just put the old one back on I've messed with small block Ford's for years nd the real draw back to them is the puss pore heads I used a set of trick flow heads nd it was a whole different engine
I completely rebuilt my FE390 and had a major failure during break in. All five cam bearings melted, and the main bearings (1 through 4) were worn but no smearing. Main and rod clearances were set up at .002 and the cam spun free when installing. I did install a .005 undersize Cloyes timing set. I primed the oil system with a drill motor and used Joe Gibbs break in oil. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
Is sounds like that during the rebuild dirt got into the cam bearing drilling’s and starved them of oil.
If I had to guess - that or they weren’t clocked correctly durring install to allow for proper oiling
@@ThunderHead289 All oil galleries were super clean. The cam bearings were installed with the oil holes at the 6 O'clock position. Is this correct. or...?
What do you recommend on a 302 with 20 psi oil pressure at idle and at higher rpm's (revved engine up to 3,000 and noted this)? I bought a truck with a 302, and it exhibits this trait. I don't know the history of the motor, but it seems to run fine (no rod knock, no oil usage, etc.). For peace of mind, I plan to change the oil pump. I had heard of the concern with the smaller distributor gear, and staying away from a high volume pump, and this video reinforces that concern.
However, I suspect this is an older engine, with wider journal clearances. You prefaced your recommendation against a high volume pump with the condition of normal journal clearances; again, I suspect that is not the case with this engine, due to engine wear.
Obviously, rebuilding the engine would be ideal, but this is a budget project, and do not want to go to the expense of rebuilding, if I can avoid it.
Should I stay with a stock replacement oil pump, or would this be a situation where a high volume pump might be warranted?
Jeffrey Harper If you have 20 psi of oil pressure when warmed up at idle then you don’t need a new pump. It’s also normal for oil pressure to increase with rpm because the pump is in turn is spinning faster.
@@AustinHarmon1994 he's saying the oil pressure stays at 20psi up to 3000rpm.
I still wouldn't worry too much if it runs fine. Usually don't need too much pressure, as long as you have some.
Clean inside of the oil pan
Turned out to be a bad oil pressure gauge. I did change the pump (standard) and the gauge. Now 30psi at idle and 50psi at 3,000 rpm w/ 10w40. . 5,000 miles later and no issues.
Just one question thunderhead ? Who come most all guys talk about ford,chevy but not mopar. I like your video,s but like everyone else you won't say anything about mopar's I'm building a 440. I have a 7qt oil pan and a high volume oil pump. Standard oil pump running at higher rpm oil pressure is about 44lbs. High volume oil pump pressure is 73lbs running 60 to 70 miles per hour. Idle reg oil pump 15 and high vol. pump. Is35 to 40. Mopar oil pressure should be 45 to 65 running. Hot running reg oil pump drops to 38 to low. High vol. oil pump 73 to 75 to high. So I guess what I'm asking is I'm not a mechanic can't afford one so like everyone else. Go to you tube. Like I said I like your video when you talk about your ford truck and chevy please throw mopar in their I know it would help me. Was looking for how to shim the oil spring in a v8 mopar to get more pressure with the reg oil pump. Thanks and keep up the video's
Love the roadkill zip tie job!!!
Iv been doing that since before roadkill!!!! Very seldom taught old hot rod trick!!! Glad the roadkill guys have made it much more popular! It's good stuff.
Geez this has been common since zip ties have been invented decades ago.
that's a cool intro song , is there a full song somewhere ?
I went high volume but it's got a turbo kit and oil cooler. And 7 qt pan.
the spring in the pump sets the pressure, if you have an fe ford with a front sump you should run 5 qts in the pan plus whatever the filter holds, high volume and high pressure pumps are different the increase in pressure from high volume is marginal in my trials, i also think std pumps for the street are fine but lifters have nothing to do with it. smokie said 10 psi per 1000 rpm and 10-15 psi at idle was fine if smokie said it its fact.
let me ask you this - what creates pressure in a fluid system - it depends upon the amount of volume you are attempting to positively force through an orifice. orifice size being the same, you will have more pressure with more volume. solid lifters are for high rpm applications which require more free flow of oil, and the lifters themselves have larger orifices. so between solids and hydraulic, you will see a tangible difference.
Get rid of the Fram oil filter. Paper comes apart on them.
I'm a little late coming to comment here , just found your channel. That seems to be good advise. Why not touch on the types of oil pumps in the different makes if you are going to compare them to one another? To my knowledge, the Ford has a gerotor type and the Chevy has a spur gear type. Some high performance Chevy pumps are actually designed like the Ford style pump. So that being said, that could be one more good reason you can get away with HV pump in a Chevy easier, the spur gear pump isn't as efficient as the Ford pump.
i use a hv pump on my turbo 351w. it has an oil cooler with x2 turbos. Good insurance with an arp pump drive.
MEL 462, would you rec high volume or stock oil pump?
OMG, Dude, your so cool! Why do you use that brand of oil filter? Have you inspected the inside of a few and have you determined there ok for your engine needs? I inspected a few and selected a different brand due to internal reasons for use in my street applications. Other filters I have used seem to look different inside. So, I use a different brand that I feel more comfortable with. Cut one open before and/or another after use and take a good look. All the ones I've ever used like that one, do not meet my standards. I do think there may be oil filters that could make a difference in your engines health. I'm not an expert and this is just my opinion. Check it out for yourself and decide. What I'm saying is that for me, not all oil filters are made the same.
I'm going to a bigger oil pan and they usually more than not recommend HV pumps I would not run one with a stock pan. There's not enough capacity to justify it
That’s old folklore that has been passed around forever - let me know when you have 4 quarts in your oiling system. It’s not possible if you have a full 5 quarts
@@ThunderHead289 I mean don't people just match what they have to what they're doing?
Stock pan stock oil pump
Aftermarket 7 qt pan aftermarket pump? I'm not saying it'll pump dry in saying why use something you don't need? Like when guys buy heads that flow 300 cfm but drive around the street with a dual plane intake and low compression below 9.5 yeah itll work but why spend the money?
I needed a high volume pump to maintain pressure at low rpm - this truck had an engine with solid lifters in it, which have a less restriction.
High volumes are also great for worn out engines as you can usually get another 20k out of them by boosting the oil pressure back into spec.
Regarding the solids, it was the first engine I ever built, and I didn’t need the cam profile. But one thing I will say for sure - it sure beat having a ticky hydraulic lifter - and no, with lockers, a guy never has to reset the lash on solids.
@@ThunderHead289 hmmm I might just go solid..I thought about once or twice but maybe time to reexamine it. I was just gonna go hydro flat because, well, I know I can make enough power and don't really need a heavier, more expsensive roller cam/lifter. Although they're nice. No break ins but it's easier to rev a solid. Especially in our short stroke engines.
My car has serious blow by... went with thicker oil to stop it... didn't work.. 20w50 to be exact... and my oil pressure has always been at 50 under throttle just shy of that at idle
+Joe Septien do you have a pcv valve on it? Sounds like what happens when they get stuck open- you can also do a compression test to verify. I would look to those two items next
What are your thoughts on high volume pump and blowing out valve cover gaskets on a street car?
Unrelated - the cavity under the valve covers is not pressurized by the oiling system
@@ThunderHead289 cool thanks add to the other myths
how do you remove the key switch in a 1991 Pontiac Firebird without having to tear apart the steering column
Slide hammer... otherwise steering wheel has to come off no other way
I gotta small block tree fitty vortec 5.7 put a high volume pump on it runnin right at 80 pressure idling
SmartAlec TheMotorGuy nope
SmartAlec TheMotorGuy slung a rod in my old engine so fuck it I gotta three year unlimited mile warranty with the new one
I notice you don't have a fan shroud on your radiator. Why not?
They really dont do much.
what was your last reply on the oil pump tube I didn't get to read it all sounds like you are upset
Why do you have so many wires everywhere for such a simple setup?
A lot of dumb stuff I did in high school with a bunch of dumb electronics in the cab. That I haven't used for like 10 years
I got a ford 302 , an I am changing from a front sump to a rear sump ! So, do I need to replace the oil pickup tube ?
Yes, you will definitely need to Change the pick up tube!
ThunderHead289 would I need to measure for the length or should I just go back to the front sump oil pan it came with instead? I putting this 302 in a 79 ford f100 ,the reason I am asking !!!
+Robert Brown a pan that worked in my f100 on a roller engine was the factory truck pans and pick up. Generally any factory unit has an associated pick up. If you do buy an aftermarket pan, make sure it comes with a pick up unit.
ThunderHead289 I did not think of that when I bought my rear sump pan , the one I got was based on years 88-96 will that make a difference? Or should I get another front sump one , with the pickup tube based on years 62-82 ? Reason , asking cause the oil pan that came with motor ! I sand blasted it in
Order to try cleaning it up in order to try to repaint it , but in doing so I thing I messed it up !!
+Robert Brown I just thought of something - what year is your block?
Since we can prime an oil system at 4000 engine rpm with an electric drill and the oil being at room temperature,
How much HP can a pump be sucking up??
Do you have a 20 ho drill??
Think about it.
A frame oil filter?? really???
There seems to be a hp loss argument.
Consider this.
If you can prime an engine with room temperature oil with a quarter inch 2 HP electric drill at 2000 rpm, (that's 4000 engine rpm.).. How much HP is the oil pump sucking??!
THINK. 😱
Built a lot of engines for decades.
Twisted off shafts mean crap in the oil causing a failed pump.
What about a high mileage engine?
chad harmon I don’t see why not!
don't winsor oil pump pick up have a tag to bolt on a main stud where the Cleveland don't and crack the pickup tube no support to hold from bouncing
The sump isn't going to bounce loose or anything, it's bolted on unlike the Chevy. If it's a front sump pan, the tube is short enough to not cause issues, if it's a rear sump pan, there is a main bolt that has a stud on it for the tube to bolt to for stability
Do you do any rock crawling?
Yeah🤤😩😈🥵
is that a 289 hi po
I'll tell you if you are running a HV pump with a brass gear for a roller cam , You're going to have a bad day .
Get rid of that FRAM oil filter.
AMAN!
You're just wrong all around. I've been building cars since I was 15 and use high volume all funds.
lol that hand action though
Lol I didn't know what to do, so hands
+ThunderHead289 lmao! it helped to keep me focus. not saying your videos are boring i just tend to zone out during lectures
+Ayman Jaber no no, my vids are boring! They have to be in order to cram so much info into as small a time as possible lol
+ThunderHead289 hahaha i enjoy your videos buddy
You are wrong. A hi volume oil pump has zero to do with the oil pressure of the pump. You can have hi volume oil pump with standard 35psi pressure or you can have hi volume and hi pressure at 60+ psi however , Volume has zero to do with the pressure a pump turns out. Think I am wrong ? Read Smokey Yunuicks power secrets book or better yet look at the Mellings oil pump parts numbers or call there tech line and you again will find you are not correct . Here is the problem with your current thinking of running a high volume oil pump with a stock 5 QT oil pan. The hi volume oil pump will indeed suck your oil pan dry before the oil has a chance to return to the pan causing a air pocket in your oil supply. In Smokey Yunicks book he stresses clearly you never run a hi volume oil pump on anything that does not have a dry sump system with a sizable reserve tank of oil so you can never run out of oil . Now you can do what you want, but me , I would never EVER question Smokey .
5/16 inch hex shaft to run your oil pump. POOR design!! Really the only weakness of the SBF. IMHO
I completely agree with you on this
There are chromoly oil pump drives for about 19.00. It eliminates spark scatter that can happen with a flexing drive shaft. Solid lifters also require less pressure and volume. On FE Fords you can close off the lifter galleries completely if you are running solid lifters. Ford didn't drill them out on solid lifter performance engines. What happens with some high volume/high pressure pumps is they shear the roll pin that holds the driven gear on the distributor.
and r u about to
What the duck is he rambling on about
Lol