So lots of discussion on the 2XKO front with the beta now live. One of the things that's been popping up a lot in the last few days simply is the question of, is the game too hard? You'd think with the "simple inputs" for specials it would be an easy game but well... sorta not turning out that way, game is legit kinda difficult! Combo length some people think is out of control, touch of death combos are back and they are not hard to do, whats going on with 2XKO?
I don’t mind it if this will be a game that goes hard on punishing bad neutral gameplay. But the vast majority of the playerbase are not going to do touch of death or a minute long combo anyway. Its very easy to do in DBFZ compared to other games and even in angel rank i barely met people years ago who were capable of doing any high level combo other than some long unoptimized nonsense.
i didn't even realize people were talking bout the game being hard. i'm a fighting game player and was having a lot of fun, but i forgot that LoL players also got in this and i've probably been steamrolling unintentionally😭
Idk how this happens. I picked the casual "middle" option because I have experience on fighting games but never really tryharded, and I was only matched against players with the same skill. If people pick a competitive matchmaking what are they expecting ?
They where lied to saying it was a easy pick up and play game..And it's not they should have promoted to sweaty only..But of course they know it's a death wish to a game so they lied and now they got people in a uproar
@@tryingtochangemyways5074 they didn't lie, I'm a lol player playing on knm and I didn't have any trouble getting into the game. I spent around 6 hours in training only and I'm having a lot of fun playing yasuo/ahri and darius agains other players. When we have sbmm the problem of most people will solve naturally. The game is indeed easy to get into.
@@tryingtochangemyways5074sometimes it feels like companies kinda know what kind of controversies won't generally impact their game's success that much.
8 buttons isn't too many when you consider in reality SF6 is also an 8 button game. How? Drive Impact and Drive Parry are much easier to work into combos and react with when you put them on a shoulder button. So it really is just how it has always been + 2 new buttons for new mechanics. And in SF6 buttons actually matter, there's an actual, clear difference between what light dp and heavy dp does. Or how your medium punch or your fierce works in neutral. Which are special cancelable and which are not. There is immense depth but since everyone knows most things by heart at this point, it seems a lot simpler than it really is. Which also some characters have A WHOLE LOT MORE than just 2 specials as opposed to this game, with motion inputs too.
I will say this for Combo length anyway, the build I played from last year the combos were actually longer, the Darius BnB I learned does not work in this build of the game(they fall out). So they are actively working on making things shorter. As shown in the video though maybe don't allow for infinite OTG's though, that would help shorten combos lol
Saw a twitter post from one of the devs talking about how they don't want combos to be too long, and that ToD's should be really rare and cost a lot of resources (if they exist at all), so I think they're still working on it. Personally, I'm fine with longer combos existing, but if every combo lasts 10-20 seconds, the game becomes a bit of a snooze fest decided by only a handful of interactions.
@@unrighteous8745 reduce combos lenght boost dmg a bit and youre gucci. But the push back should be weakened a bit sometimes i feel its hard to punish someone because you block everything but youre so far away at the end that you can apply pressure but u cant rly punish
@@Shengguo0well thats what they wanted, u have to do a low, if u think they push back, bc they can't block low, also combos feel fine to me. If u take out even more combos, darius will get so boring, fighting games have to have difficuilt combos, if they all ar ez it gets boring rly fast
@@shotygamingonyt how am I supposed to do a low I’m the one blocking but while I’m blocking the hits are pushing me so far away that sometimes on some champions I can’t punish
in an interview for the riot 10th aniversary where this game and valorant and many others were announced, riot said they don't make game for casuals. ""We're making games for players who see gaming as a meaningful life pursuit, we don't make games for casual gamers," - They told BBC More quotes : "That's the reality, next for us is making games in different genres. "At the end of the day we're going to make games for the people who make the time to play them. "People who invest in them, learn them, cosplay them and compete in them - that's who we are as gamers and we want to make games for that type of player." They want you for the long haul, not to pick it up and feel like there's not much else to do/learn and leave. its a free to play game, so they can't afford that. Game has to be complex to an extent like you said.
Tempted to be cheeky and point out the casual spinoff games they’ve been making on the side. All jokes aside this is a nice perspective to see from Riot, though given the huge success of pro League of Legends it makes total sense that they’re taking this approach to their major titles
@@cukkucake the spin off games (not counting the league game modes) were under riot forge, their publishing branch. They now have a new ceo, and riot forge no longer exists and they are going to possibely work on single player games in house. The single player games are more more casual than compeitive games naturally, but the big project games were started with the sentiment above, and i don't think that has really changed.
You make a good point about how a simple crouch light can lead into a 20-30second combo, so what if hitstun decay scaled with the speed of the first hit? Giving lights the shortest combos and heaviest the highest, making it so not every hit is the longest combo, but you still have a route to earn the long combo
It's so refreshing to have a development team that seems to actually care and take the feedback. Makes me trust i'll get the best product when it's released
For accessibility reasons, I kinda wish the devs would put a motion input control scheme option that actually has fewer buttons, either on release or for the next public testing. For some people, it just feels more intuitive. Plus, they were always going on and on about making the game accessible anyway, so food for thought. But considering the game's balanced in mind with simple inputs from the ground up, it probably won't happen.
Maybe if leverless controls were more accessible then I wouldn't mind quarter circle/dragon punch input. I couldn't do consistently with a stick but doing with a hitbox that I own, I can do it at a breeze and that could apply to more people
@@caesar1512 I think trying to tailor the game to be accessible when that is the job of the input device you're using is the problem. They say they want to make it accessible then add 2 whole new buttons instead of simple motion inputs. So they're making it more accessible for people who can't input motion controls but less accessible to people with missing fingers. See what I mean? You will never make a game more accessible, you will only change who it is accessible for. In my personal opinion I think adding 2 entirely unnecessary buttons just to remove the simplest motion input is overall less accessible to most people. I'm not saying they need half circles, full circles, or even dragon punches, or anything crazy, but to add 2 whole buttons because you don't want to use the most basic of basic motion inputs is actually wild to me.
@@crazysquriel don't get that because Ryu, Ken, Terry and Kazuya all hvae motion inputs and it's not like one button specials make someone like Peach easy to play with how many of her players seem to develop hand pains. I think motion inputs should be an option tbh if it was one special button it'd be fine but yeah two buttons lowkey confused me for a hot second because i've gotten so used to stuff like Marvel's control scheme. Imo having motion inputs can be made accessible if you just don't use crazy ass motions, i can understand omitting 360s or reversed inputs because it's strange but even on a controller i have zero clue how to map these buttons
I don't know what "Don't get that" is referring to. It feels like you're agreeing with me with your comment. I also don't play SF for the singular reason that it has 6 main buttons and I am a pad player. I would rather have simple motion inputs all day long as opposed to splitting my main attack buttons between my right thumb and 2 fingers. I am a Marvel player and having all my attack buttons on the face of the controller for only my thumb with extra things like assists and tags on the shoulders is much more intuitive.
Thank you for sharing what the devs are thinking as I'm not on Twitter. Seems like they are down to address any of the issues I have with the game and while the game is complicated I definitely agree with you that it makes sense if they're going for longevity. League of Legends simply shouldn't be popular, It's so unbelievably complicated and matches take forever but that depth is what keeps people coming back. 2xko having a nice entry point with really awesome feeling auto combos and one button specials gets people in the door and then the depth keeps them there.
My thought process exactly. The “simple inputs” is just a hook and then once people are in they can open up the hood and get into the complexities of movement, spacing, etc. If it had simple inputs and LESS systems people would just get bored. Some stuff could be tweaked which they’ll obviously work on since this is an Alpha, but I really like the vision they’re going with. Plus it being free to play might change the fighting game landscape in a lot of ways which is exciting.
@@asjeje 1- TODs are situation and resource reliant. 2- The game has a burst, that let you get out of the combo, if you get TODed, its in part due to your bad resource management
The button mapping is unintuitive as you said, I think if they could condense things to just 1 special button, it would be more comfortable. As for combo length, it's really just ekko and ahri that are too long, and they get long because of repeated moves.Ekko repeats a lot of specials in his combos, and Ahri does her S1, S1, airdash link upwards of 3 times for just a bnb. Minimizing OTGs and repeated moves in a combo would help greatly for overall combo length imo
What i feel like makes the combos take too long is the slower animations. Ive played thousands of hours of BBTAG and DBFZ and 30 second combos have never really bothered me. Maybe because so much seems like is happening. (Especially in BBTAG since it has a burst.) 2XKO combos dont just take long, but so much fewer moves, specials, cancels etc are happening so it FEELS even slower.
It won't affect numbers, non-fighting game players are gonna lose and complain regardless. If it's not combos, it's gonna be complaining about pressure or oki, we see it time and time again. Appeasing this group is impossible unless you can somehow make them go even with veterans.
@@slithermayne2218 i don't think that's wholly true but i also think balance wise you should not have this many TOD combos like this, i also just think people in general don't particularly like being stuck in an effective cutscene. TOD combos are fine but they should be incredibly hard and very costly, not something that only needs an assist and 1 bar
@illford a game like marvel 3 had consistent resourceless infinites out the ass all over the roster and was still one of the top 2 premier fighting games of it's time by a wide margin, number 3 wasn't even close
@@iliakatster I figure that’s something that will be addressed but with how focused they are on feedback I figured it wouldn’t hurt to mention just in case
This is why I love Combo Breakers in Killer Instinct. Even if you stuck in a long combo, the game give you a chance to get out of it if you have a good read and the opponent can counter you if they feel your gonna break your combo
Actually it wasn't right..Because it was to many opportunities to break combos..Guessing game around will he break or not is stupid..Once they nerf Kan ra I left
Also no sbmm means that you have to know more to compete since you aren't always playing players of your level while also having to deal with the more experienced players that tend to follow fighting games closely.
man im not gonna lie, as a SF player i really enjoy these mechanics. Gives you the chance ot really have sdifferent startegies stand out from each other and gives you alot of freedom on how you want to win a game. Not good at parrying? Pick braum and illaio and focus on low-overhead pressure. Not good at comboing?: Pick darius and usze interactions to land big counter strikes. It really reminds of how the drive system felt at first. It seemed like waaaaaayyyy to much at first but then once you kind of find which part of the system you're more comfortable using you can kind of focus on that and build gameplkans around it Like for example if you hate impact and arent good at reacting with it you can build a gameplan around parry or baiting the enemy into getting hit with a raw super, practice quick 3-hot combos, etc. I like the direction the game is going in this sense and i think overtime it'll be great for the game and lead to some sick sets. When all systems seems essential to winning that really just means they all counter eachother well so you that there's a way around everything which I love. Really adds a true layer of tactics to it
I agree about all the necessary buttons. It feels like too much for me. Would love just one special button and have hella inputs associated with it. I still find myself doing qcf motions just out of habit
This game is not hard at all, but it's also complex enough for casuals to make me wonder why the F they even bothered with simple inputs and a weird control squeme in the first place
I would assume they felt that making the inputs simple allowed for them to make other aspects more complex. Like if they had standard inputs there would probably be less movement options or something. Just lowering the barrier to entry. Obviously I’m just guessing but I can see that being the thought process. Basically “let’s shift where the skill is placed” thinking that simple inputs would bring people in without having to sacrifice extra fighting game complexities.
the game is hard to do anything of decent use is i imagine is what's said because the long good stuff is pretty tricky, especially if your a newcomer. If your gonna have a special button why hve two especially since i mean they use down down motions anyway which tbh i think can be weirder than QCF, when i tried playing M3 characters like She Hulk or Phoenix Wright getting down down timing was actually kind of weird since it's not the most common motion imo. But i also think you can have a simpl eneough game to get into and still have a high ceiling. Like i think Marvel 3 is simple enough for casuals to learn to do some basic combos on some combos but still hard enough to where you are going to need to sit in training mode. I also think having varied character specific difficulty levels, like Captain America is a simple character to play you can make it easier to get used to a game if you just add beginner characters. I also think devs just underestimate how much people are willing to learn something, if it looks cool people will generally put effort in. I have friends who initially played DBFZ casually but enjoyed it enough to do learning and actually got semi competitive with it trying to get rank up online and stuff. TL:DR you can have a simple system and still make a game hard enough to not be an easy time for casuals trying to compete, learning is fine as long as it's not like some 17 year commitment to be a low level guy. I mean people will learn tekken at a basic low level just for casual reasons because the game (from what people i know say) is cool enough to be worthwile
to push people over the initial learning curve. you are not playing a fighting game until you can at least press your buttons and thats what the simple inputs helps with
One of the biggest barriers for casuals getting into fighting games is motion inputs for special moves, especially when applied to combos requiring specific timings. Designing the game with simple inputs removes the physical barrier of inputs and allows players to more easily learn the game’s specific mechanics, movement, neutral etc. without worrying about how to do a fireball or dp. It’s why modern controls are still really popular in SF6
The lack of motion inputs messes me up so much 😅. I’m so used to stuff like quarter or half circles for specials. I think it’s just something I’ll get used to with time
So curious to see how newer players are feeling about the two special buttons. As someone whos comfortable on classic inputs I am actually getting super confused in game with the two special buttons and find myself hitting the wrong ones all the time or even just hitting a light, medium, heavy input when I meant to hit a special because I am forgetting what does what. This is something I'll get used to with more time in the game but I wouldn't hate it if they added a classic and modern input mode. I would rather have 4 button classic inputs with 4 extra buttons for macros 100%
I think it's a bit less scary having simple Inputs honestly, I've played with normal QCF inputs for awhile and anytime I tried to get a friend into a fighting game their main thing holding them back is "I don't want to do motion inputs they are too hard" all my friends play smash bros though so it's not a fighting game thing.
Honestly the second special button makes the button layout feel pretty awkward, I think even for those who don’t play many fighting games. Most fighting games tend to have intuitive layouts for buttons like light medium heavy or Tekken’s left and right side attacks, but 2XKO’s light and medium attacks sitting parallel to the two special buttons almost makes you forget that there’s a heavy attack
@@cukkucake yeah I always mix-up a button in a combo whether that's S1 and S2 or a normal and a special, could just be something I need to get used to though
I unfortunately didn't get into the alpha, but if they want to keep both long combos but keep interaction on both sides, they could always look into the MVCI solution and let your teammate tag in while you're being comboed to attempt a save. Another one I was thinking about is based on Naruto: Clash of Ninja (series) where you had resources that filled over time to escape combos or attack out of being comboed. It wasn't a guaranteed get out of jail, and someone that read you could reset the combo. I just like the idea because league of legends has "trading" in lane phase and this thematically fits the bill.
Long combos were my biggest worry. That's one thing that kept me away from many team fighting games. Once players get good at combos it's just so mentally tiring to see the same long combos over and over.
Thank you for covering what the devs are actually saying. Way too many people out there saying “this games gunna die cause the combos are too long”… yall the games got a year+ left before release
I feel like combo lenght in GBVR feels pretty good, there are certainly ways to extend them, they deal decent damage if you end on a (S)SA and don't take up a lot of time. At least I don't remember being annoyed watching my character geting beat to death^^
When I play a new fg, I rarely if ever think the complexity lies in the inputs rather in the long strings to memorize and adapt. Sure it takes a while to understand how to do a DP but once you know how to do a DP you can just always do it, that knowledge it can then be directly applied to other characters and even games, combo strings however, do not necessarily. So when they said they were going to make it easier, I figured they would implement auto combo systems or generally be shorter strings, not simpler inputs.
MAKE PULSE A CONTROL SCHEME NOT FUSE!!! Tldr: Needs real tutorial mode Other than that, only issues I have with 2XKO rn is the lack of explanation/onboarding for the games mechanics and combo structure, and the control scheme. The game has a lot of defensive mechanics; retreating guard, parry, push guard, the blue mini burst thing?, and green burst. However, because there is no tutorial I see a very small number of people actually using all these in-game. Obviously, this is because it's an alpha and all these mechanics are subject to change and I'm confident that will have some sort of "new player experience" kind of thing to help ease players into the game. The main issue with the T button for me is that it just does too many things. There have been multiple where I wanted to use an Assist mid-combo but for got the Tag launcher instead, because they are the exact same input. Also, it can be very difficult in the midst of the chaos of this game to immediately gauge why a Tag/Assist might not come out. So having an audio cue or alert whenever u attempt an unavailable Tag/Assist would help a lot. Overall, I LOVE the gameplay, combos, and mechanics just needs better explanations of all the awesome shit in this game.
I'm a bit torn on combo length. When supers get involved combos can last 20-30+ seconds but without them most tend to end around 8 seconds or so. That said I've always been a "Hey the old MvC intended routes of magic series into super is all I need" so if they get shortened again I won't be too upset. I don't think the game is too hard but I think having this 6 character roster have 2 (arguably 3) "advanced" characters was a mistake in terms of onboarding. When defense is as difficult as it is having the act of intermediate offense for 2-3 of the characters being fairly difficult for newcomers really makes the game feel way harder than it really is.
The messed up part of stuff like that Ekko combo is he has at least 3 parts of it where he can intentionally drop the combo for a reset so you have to be paying attention for the full 20 seconds. If he does get the reset then you just have the watch the full thing cause your character is dead lol Tag games are bruuuutal
yeah i think having easy characters is probably a better idea, like when i wanted to get into Marvel i could just play Captain America and learn the basics of the game and what you generally want to do, he's not the best and team composition may not be optimal but that's not a bad thing I also think an actually good tutorial goes a long way for accessibility, you can have a hard game but if you have a good tutorial and good trial structure you can actually teach people the game well
@@SomniaCEplus you have to hold a button the whole time to tech, so you can’t even stretch your hands or neck for a second. Gotta hold light for 45 seconds I guess….
I will say, it is like you said. Adding "special" buttons makes it more difficult than having directional inputs on a LMH button system. Even marvel 3 had 4 buttons but still had directional inputs and it works more fluidly.
@@Link_IVThats the mentality that makes fighting games have 10 people playing them... In gonna tell you a story, Once uppon a time there was a game and this game had some issues thats why nobody played it but there were 10 people who were willing to play it even with the issues and they did for years but then another game appeared and this one was solving those issues appealing to more people but then those 10 people got mad because they accepted to play poorly designed games so how could they allow other players to be interested in the genra to play an easier and better made game...
@@Link_IV But a game for the small few will be just that, small. Example, Blazblue is a series of anime fighting game that is constantly at Evo as a main or side event. The series has sold 1.7 million copies and is well received (mostly) by the fans. The problem is that it's hard to grow a series like that WITHOUT adding things for current fans OR changing your target audience to be bigger. It's the age old problem of "Growing to the size of your tank". When a new blazblue comes out, most of the players are just previous blazblue players. New players don't just come from marketing, they also come from ease of entry. If you don't have both, you don't get newer players.
I figured this out with Modern on SF6. Eliminating motion inputs really does not = easy controls. Having to hold modifier buttons and use extra button combinations is legitimately more challenging than a motion input. You went from a logical kinetic motion to mashing cheat codes to get the right super to pop.
yeah, but it's actually way more fun doing motion inputs once you learned them than simply doing piano presses for 20 secs with the need of way more buttons if you don't have motions. Also opens up the design space more. You can't have that powerful reversals or even wildly different ones in terms of strength if the execution requirement is the same with a single button press + direction for everything.
I'm glad you mentioned fighterz because man, I played that game harrrrd for years until a bit before lab coat came out I wanna say? But one day I was playing it and noticed myself really raging at it and it dawned on me that the other games I was playing like marvel 3, while more busted and unfair, didn't make me rage. I thought about why that was and the answer was clear! Everyone I was fighting in DBFZ was so good now that every stray hit was confirmed into a 30 second combo and it made me want to die! Half the round you sit there pissed off waiting to play! If they added a 2 bar combo breaker like MvCI id probably still be playing
It´s like SF6 modern x2. I would really prefer motion inputs. But i actually appreciate the communications from the devs. They really care about feedback as it seems
I think it can be good to have really long combos, but only if there are ways to break them and tradeoffs involved. I think that in games that allow crazy long combos, there should be a meter that drains the longer a combo goes on, like almost none for a few hits, and then faster and faster as it continues. Emptying this bar does not end the combo, but it does leave you more vulnerable. On the defensive side, you can use a "combo breaker" move of some kind to throw the enemy back, but this move also spends from this same bar, and it spends more of your own bar to escape the more of your enemy's bar is remaining. So what this means is, it can be more efficient to let an enemy use some small combos on you and to only break his combo as his bar empties out, than to just spam break on every 2-3 hit string, because the latter would burn out this bar pretty quickly, but you can use this to prevent massively long chains. Likewise, if you DO use massively long chains, then if the enemy survives, they can start chains on you and you'd have nothing to fight them off with, so if you start out with long chains, then you're gambling away your future. I think this would allow a lot of flexibility, while still encouraging players to keep things small until they are ready to go in for the kill.
Can’t believe people have been calling games without motions baby games for years and now a game without motion inputs is too hard lol. Just goes to show that motion inputs usually have nothing to do with a game’s difficulty XD
I get this does sound ironic on the surface, but it's because the easy inputs are usually just to remove complexity from the game using the pre-existing button scheme, whereas this game adds two completely new buttons to the scheme just to get rid of the easiest motion control. I don't think it's too complex, but as a pad player it's actually really frustrating to have to use shoulders for basic bnbs. Having 6 main buttons is literally the sole reason I don't play SF as a pad player.
@@dragonic22 If there is 6 main attack buttons then no. Tbh it's also too slow for me. I like anime fighters with intense, high paced mixes and combos more than footsies all game.
@@dragonic22 I would be okay playing SF for what it is if my friends wanted me to play with them. It's a good game. I do prefer faster games and wouldn't choose SF if given the choice. However, since it's controls are a complete non-starter for me, I do not play the game, period. So it is the singular reason I don't play the game even with it not being my preference.
One thing to remember is that this game was advertised as a "play with your friends" fighting game (or at least, that's how I remember hearing about it when it was first announced). Simple inputs mean you can introduce your buddy who might not be as good at fighting games, and the extra complexity (two assists, holding the assist, fuses, etc.) is meant to be offloaded onto your teammate. Individually, the mechanics are simple, but unless you have a friend to back you up, it can be a bit overwhelming. Of course, this works both ways; if you have a teammate, you have to communicate with them on the spot or practice together to build habits (and even then, they're likely to improvise, which can be an issue when you're still new). Overall, it is certainly quite complex. However, playing with a friend relieves you of a good chunk of the mental load.
From playing duos with my buddy who doesn’t play fighting games I can say it was a really fun experience helping him not only learn the game, but also being able to call out his opponent’s habits and having the option to jump in myself and give him an opening or just cleaning up myself by tagging in
I think the game just has a steep learning curve. Not only do you have to learn two characters, you also have to synergize with their assists and tag combos. Definitely takes time to get used to by practicing, but the payoff feels better than almost any other fighting game I’ve played. LoL has a way steeper learning curve, so there’s no reason why this game shouldn’t be something that requires a lot of practice. They could definitely change the health values and combo scaling. I don’t think Ekko and Ahri should have lower health than Yasuo when he’s doing far more damage. ToDs are cool to see, but terrible for the health of the game with the state they’re in currently. They’re definitely going to look heavily on that. Glad they’re going to make it harder to do and resource heavy.
I definitely think they could've made the control scheme better by only having one special button. For most of the roster the special buttons only have roughly 3 inputs so you could put all of those on a single special button without running out of directional input combinations with said button
I agree somewhat. Ekko and Illaoi actually have a pretty intuitive separation for their special buttons. One sets up tentacles/rewind points, and the other activates them. The rest of the cast doesn't seem to have much of a pattern, though.
I think the most beginner-friendly FG of today is Street Fighter 6. I’ve been playing FG’s since injustice, and never touched sf until 6. The layout, tutorials, and simplicity, are pretty hard to beat honestly. This game looks like DBFZ, never knowing when you can press buttons, in true vs fashion. Not a bad thing, but I’d say fg’s like this are generally harder to get into.
Fast take before watching the video and only reading the title, this game its so easy to pick up mostly due to auto combos, if any newbie learns to dash and punish whiffs/unsafe stuff they are simply guaranteed to do so much damage just because of those. Best part is, those combos are not even optimal therefore it's not even an advantage, it's just a luxury for a new player/someone getting into fighting games, this is how a fighting game should try to welcome new people and since League of Legends its probably the biggest game on the market, this will surely welcome a lot of players from that game.
I think the game currently has a few things going against it the game sets as of right now go on waaaay too long. A best out of 3 lasts for what feels like 10 minutes. The game isn’t that fun to watch as a casual observer especially compared to TEKKEN 8 and street fighter 6. I know it’s in alpha but the fact that we only know if 6 characters and the game is coming out next year is very concerning considering that city of the wolves is coming out next year and we already know of like 11 characters. Also in the dev panel they stated that the game will be light on content/ game modes so I don’t see how it will maintain a casual audience. The game is promising but the team has a lot of work they need to do to get the game in a better place.
I just hope this doesn't end up like DNF duel. A ton of hype at the start but dies off quickly. They need to put in a lot of quality story mode content. Maybe an RPG mode like street fighter boss battles, just fun stuff that would keep the casuals coming back.
I haven't played many 2D fighters that often in a while and I'm glad to hear my already not good ass is not the only one finding things like the controls and amount of buttons to be harder than usual
i hope there's gonna be combo trials at some point, for me combo trials really make me understand the combo structure and what to do when i eventually get a hit
i’m ngl the challenge of this game has made me WANT to get better. i actually appreciate the challenge, as someone who has only ever played platform fighters, this is a unique challenge i appreciate.
Im glad other people agree that finding button configurations is really awkward. For me the other thing is a lot of system mechanics being bound to multiple inputs at once. I was able to do it in strive bc it was only fd but there is a lot to remember when theres like a bunch of these different combinations. Controls feel bloated to me :/ still having fun tho bc the input buffer is actually good and just kinda knows what im trying to do during combos half the time
I really like how SF6 handles combos. SF3 def had a stark lack of combos. You had hit confirms and juggles and most characters were stuck there. And while Meterless combos are a perfect 3 hit sequence in SF6, if you burn ALL resources you get those long drawn out nail biters. But most games dont have the quantitiy of resources SF6 has so F.
As somebody who's been doing Street Fighter command inputs since SFII came out on SNES, I actually find a dedicated special button to be more challenging than simplified qcf controls like you get in Dragon Ball Fighterz or Marvel vs Capcom 2. I'm just not great at managing a ton of buttons, so if I can find depth in button1->button2->qcf->button2 that works better in my hands than button1->button2->down+button4
Fighting games are just hard. Competitive games are hard. Going against other humans just isn’t easy. If people want their feel good mash button and win games go play story based games where you don’t even need to block. I’m tired of ppl playing purposely challenging things like Elden ring or Fighting games and then complaining when they can’t stream roll through it. Just stop, go play something else
This is the only thing i hate about fighting games getting more popular. The “too hard” arguments melt my brain. Yeah, they are hard. They always were, this is one of the reasons why we love them, if you don’t, why do you stay just to complain about it.
Honestly, I think there should be a control option that makes it so you CAN do motions for special moves. It would free up a couple buttons for assist, dash macro, ect. For those of us who play on stick, don't mind doing motion inputs and find it hard to keep track so many buttons... Or maybe that's just me.
You could appease both parties that want combos the same or want them shorter by simply making it so a cinematic supers have an instant animation if used at the end of a combo or at the end of a combo that is longer than a few hits. that way you still get to see the animations when you manage to pull one out raw or from a hit confirm
For the Ekko combo at 15:24, 15:32 is where the combo should, realistically, end. That would be an 8 second combo, is flashy, has multiple moving parts, and could have a satisfying ending. This is, in my opinion, the ideal combo length/structure. But once that "Break!" comes in, the combo is annoying. Also, I really hope they put in a little bit more work to allow people to use motion inputs if they want to, to help minimize how many different buttons you have.
I'd be very intrigued to see how long the honeymoon period lasts for this. 2xko has an audience from a largely competitive community who may not normally play fighting games, and casual fgc players typically stay in the single player modes or play online with friend groups. Balancing the ranked/online with single player content is going to be a key part here. Especially as SF6 showed you can bring those two things together in the early release period pretty well via battlehubs.
@@greasemasterreviews2594 for over 10 years league is either the most popular game on the entire planet, or in the top 3. I think you are living under a rock here bud lol
@@rooflemonger Come on Roof, this is a weird take man. League is not even close to the level of popularity that Dragon Ball is. It's not even close. I have to assume you're gaslighting for fun. DBFZ player base literally shows casuals quit after two months on steam. The goal is to find a way to keep more of them. TOD is not it.
@@greasemasterreviews2594I hate League of Legends but Rooflemonger is literally correct. In the gaming space, LoL is as popular as it gets outside of Minecraft and sometimes Fortnite. Dragonball's cultural influence is heavily skewed by time on this planet, too, rather than raw popularity. LoL has had absurd staying power for *any* media franchise, let alone a video game that's been using the same skeleton for over a decade.
From a Game Designers personal opinion as long as there is good information in game on how to actually improve and notice that improvement for the player is the way to make people enjoy putting time in improving, which is needed to fully enjoy the entire experience and not feel like you’re bad or should just stick to your comfort games.
I completely agree that neutral is the best part and combos are just something that need to be performed and be completed without leaving both players unengaged for too long.
I think the issue is that people assumed that having a low skill floor would mean a low skill ceiling. However, that's not the case with 2XKO and its seems that the ceiling is very high.
Combos are far too lengthy for how easy they are to convert, extend and loop. I just don't think any combo that isn't super conditional should last more than 8 seconds
So on the combo length thing, shorter combos are better yes, however that depends on the damage/scaling of the combos and what I mean by that is Short Combo + High Damage = Neutral becomes the best way to play. Short Combo + Low Damage = Intentional resets become the best way to play. Long combo + High damage = Mix ups become more important/the best way to play Long combo + Low damage = Optimazation becomes the best way to play Where we want it is Medium Combo + Medium damage = nice middle ground where all styles and modes of play are just about equal right? However that is a very nebulous thing to pin down, but Riot is pretty good about that so I am not concerned.
In terms of simpler games not being able to make it in the long haul I would kind of refute that with Smash Bros and Brawlhalla. Yes, platformer fighters are very different than 2D fighters but they're also like the BIGGEST fighting games in terms of player base and staying power. Heck if it weren't for Nintendo actively getting in the way the Smash Bros scene would probably be the biggest fgc esport by this point
I'm not very good at fighting games myself, but I always understood the basics... coming into this game, it was super easy to understand the controls and learn how to do the basic pulse combos without pulse. From there, I saw people online doing crazy combos, but this didn't discourage me. Instead, I watched videos of the crazy combos, figured out what ability that was, went to training, and got the timing down in between abilities... it's that simple. I can get 25+ hit combos now, no problem, because the inputs are consistent and not hard to pull off in the heat of the moment. For this reason, I don't think the game is too hard at all. just get good fr.
However, I will agree that some combos are too long. TOD should not be a thing. It hasn't happened to me yet, but still, sometimes I feel like I can go grab a coffee and come back before the enemy is done with his stun lock.
8 distinct buttons is kinda wild, like Granblue Rising is technically 6 buttons but in practice is essentially 8 buttons and it's pretty headspinny for me, can't imagine wrestling with 8
I think the design philosophie is to actually have a game that rivals the big team games in complexity like umvc3 but at the same time do not hide the cool stuff behind difficult inputs. like for new players its pretty easy to have something cool happen on screen whats other games already "gated" behind a shorio motion with 2 attack buttons or something. Also the combo fuse lets you mash to have something cool happen on screen. But the high end is like top level E-Sport stuff - Thats how it looks to me at least (i have no access). then it will most likely be a matter of matchmaking. I guess the playerbase for this could be big enough to have that so that lobbys do not get too sweaty. But in general riot always designs for high level esport, where its pretty clear when you jump in, that you can have fun, but also learn very fast, that its not casual. How this will turn out for 2xko will be interesting. In games like legue or valorant people where encouraged to learn and then become very engaged with the game and the scene. Its still up for debate if this will also work for a fighting game or not.
The learning curve is my problem. I feel like a noob without my motion inputs. Also trying to remember what buttons do what. I’m just brain freezing 🥶 constantly
So lots of discussion on the 2XKO front with the beta now live. One of the things that's been popping up a lot in the last few days simply is the question of, is the game too hard? You'd think with the "simple inputs" for specials it would be an easy game but well... sorta not turning out that way, game is legit kinda difficult! Combo length some people think is out of control, touch of death combos are back and they are not hard to do, whats going on with 2XKO?
The game being legit kinda difficult and TOD combos are not hard to do kinda contradict eachother
@@Sjem554 inputs don't = difficulty. inputs are just memorizing. its artificial difficulty
@@NedMethod motion inputs serve a purpose but ok. Its not just "artificial difficulty" that being said this game functions well without motion inputs.
I don’t mind it if this will be a game that goes hard on punishing bad neutral gameplay. But the vast majority of the playerbase are not going to do touch of death or a minute long combo anyway. Its very easy to do in DBFZ compared to other games and even in angel rank i barely met people years ago who were capable of doing any high level combo other than some long unoptimized nonsense.
Sounds like a breath of fresh air! I'm stoked! Hopefully it stays this way!
Biggest problem I am having with the Alpha is that i suck.
Same
Look at the bright side, at least other people have fun beating you.
My biggest problem, is that i didn’t get in
the game is new and not even out yet
Good news : we can work on that :)
A lot of frustration is coming from League of Legends players who have never played a fighting game before being matched against genre veterans
i didn't even realize people were talking bout the game being hard. i'm a fighting game player and was having a lot of fun, but i forgot that LoL players also got in this and i've probably been steamrolling unintentionally😭
Idk how this happens.
I picked the casual "middle" option because I have experience on fighting games but never really tryharded, and I was only matched against players with the same skill. If people pick a competitive matchmaking what are they expecting ?
They where lied to saying it was a easy pick up and play game..And it's not they should have promoted to sweaty only..But of course they know it's a death wish to a game so they lied and now they got people in a uproar
@@tryingtochangemyways5074 they didn't lie, I'm a lol player playing on knm and I didn't have any trouble getting into the game. I spent around 6 hours in training only and I'm having a lot of fun playing yasuo/ahri and darius agains other players. When we have sbmm the problem of most people will solve naturally. The game is indeed easy to get into.
@@tryingtochangemyways5074sometimes it feels like companies kinda know what kind of controversies won't generally impact their game's success that much.
I didn’t even realize that no motion is part of the reason there’s so many buttons.
Would love to just have one special button and use it for motions, then I can bind burst to s2
8 buttons isn't too many when you consider in reality SF6 is also an 8 button game. How? Drive Impact and Drive Parry are much easier to work into combos and react with when you put them on a shoulder button. So it really is just how it has always been + 2 new buttons for new mechanics. And in SF6 buttons actually matter, there's an actual, clear difference between what light dp and heavy dp does. Or how your medium punch or your fierce works in neutral. Which are special cancelable and which are not. There is immense depth but since everyone knows most things by heart at this point, it seems a lot simpler than it really is. Which also some characters have A WHOLE LOT MORE than just 2 specials as opposed to this game, with motion inputs too.
I will say this for Combo length anyway, the build I played from last year the combos were actually longer, the Darius BnB I learned does not work in this build of the game(they fall out). So they are actively working on making things shorter. As shown in the video though maybe don't allow for infinite OTG's though, that would help shorten combos lol
Saw a twitter post from one of the devs talking about how they don't want combos to be too long, and that ToD's should be really rare and cost a lot of resources (if they exist at all), so I think they're still working on it. Personally, I'm fine with longer combos existing, but if every combo lasts 10-20 seconds, the game becomes a bit of a snooze fest decided by only a handful of interactions.
@@unrighteous8745 reduce combos lenght boost dmg a bit and youre gucci. But the push back should be weakened a bit sometimes i feel its hard to punish someone because you block everything but youre so far away at the end that you can apply pressure but u cant rly punish
@@Shengguo0well thats what they wanted, u have to do a low, if u think they push back, bc they can't block low, also combos feel fine to me. If u take out even more combos, darius will get so boring, fighting games have to have difficuilt combos, if they all ar ez it gets boring rly fast
@@shotygamingonyt how am I supposed to do a low I’m the one blocking but while I’m blocking the hits are pushing me so far away that sometimes on some champions I can’t punish
@@Shengguo0 oh i thought u mean retreating guard sry my bad
in an interview for the riot 10th aniversary where this game and valorant and many others were announced, riot said they don't make game for casuals. ""We're making games for players who see gaming as a meaningful life pursuit, we don't make games for casual gamers," - They told BBC
More quotes :
"That's the reality, next for us is making games in different genres.
"At the end of the day we're going to make games for the people who make the time to play them.
"People who invest in them, learn them, cosplay them and compete in them - that's who we are as gamers and we want to make games for that type of player."
They want you for the long haul, not to pick it up and feel like there's not much else to do/learn and leave. its a free to play game, so they can't afford that. Game has to be complex to an extent like you said.
I feel like this is an important insight, very interesting
Tempted to be cheeky and point out the casual spinoff games they’ve been making on the side.
All jokes aside this is a nice perspective to see from Riot, though given the huge success of pro League of Legends it makes total sense that they’re taking this approach to their major titles
@@cukkucake the spin off games (not counting the league game modes) were under riot forge, their publishing branch. They now have a new ceo, and riot forge no longer exists and they are going to possibely work on single player games in house. The single player games are more more casual than compeitive games naturally, but the big project games were started with the sentiment above, and i don't think that has really changed.
@@cukkucakelets not forget that the casual games were from forge and they were PAID GAMES, not F2P
You make a good point about how a simple crouch light can lead into a 20-30second combo, so what if hitstun decay scaled with the speed of the first hit? Giving lights the shortest combos and heaviest the highest, making it so not every hit is the longest combo, but you still have a route to earn the long combo
I believe hitstun decay doesn't actually begin until the character being hit leaves the ground.
It's so refreshing to have a development team that seems to actually care and take the feedback. Makes me trust i'll get the best product when it's released
For accessibility reasons, I kinda wish the devs would put a motion input control scheme option that actually has fewer buttons, either on release or for the next public testing. For some people, it just feels more intuitive. Plus, they were always going on and on about making the game accessible anyway, so food for thought.
But considering the game's balanced in mind with simple inputs from the ground up, it probably won't happen.
For real though. Give me quarter circles all day over 6 main attack buttons and down down inputs.
Maybe if leverless controls were more accessible then I wouldn't mind quarter circle/dragon punch input. I couldn't do consistently with a stick but doing with a hitbox that I own, I can do it at a breeze and that could apply to more people
@@caesar1512 I think trying to tailor the game to be accessible when that is the job of the input device you're using is the problem. They say they want to make it accessible then add 2 whole new buttons instead of simple motion inputs. So they're making it more accessible for people who can't input motion controls but less accessible to people with missing fingers. See what I mean? You will never make a game more accessible, you will only change who it is accessible for. In my personal opinion I think adding 2 entirely unnecessary buttons just to remove the simplest motion input is overall less accessible to most people. I'm not saying they need half circles, full circles, or even dragon punches, or anything crazy, but to add 2 whole buttons because you don't want to use the most basic of basic motion inputs is actually wild to me.
@@crazysquriel don't get that because Ryu, Ken, Terry and Kazuya all hvae motion inputs and it's not like one button specials make someone like Peach easy to play with how many of her players seem to develop hand pains. I think motion inputs should be an option tbh if it was one special button it'd be fine but yeah two buttons lowkey confused me for a hot second because i've gotten so used to stuff like Marvel's control scheme.
Imo having motion inputs can be made accessible if you just don't use crazy ass motions, i can understand omitting 360s or reversed inputs because it's strange but even on a controller i have zero clue how to map these buttons
I don't know what "Don't get that" is referring to. It feels like you're agreeing with me with your comment. I also don't play SF for the singular reason that it has 6 main buttons and I am a pad player. I would rather have simple motion inputs all day long as opposed to splitting my main attack buttons between my right thumb and 2 fingers. I am a Marvel player and having all my attack buttons on the face of the controller for only my thumb with extra things like assists and tags on the shoulders is much more intuitive.
Thank you for sharing what the devs are thinking as I'm not on Twitter. Seems like they are down to address any of the issues I have with the game and while the game is complicated I definitely agree with you that it makes sense if they're going for longevity. League of Legends simply shouldn't be popular, It's so unbelievably complicated and matches take forever but that depth is what keeps people coming back. 2xko having a nice entry point with really awesome feeling auto combos and one button specials gets people in the door and then the depth keeps them there.
My thought process exactly. The “simple inputs” is just a hook and then once people are in they can open up the hood and get into the complexities of movement, spacing, etc. If it had simple inputs and LESS systems people would just get bored. Some stuff could be tweaked which they’ll obviously work on since this is an Alpha, but I really like the vision they’re going with.
Plus it being free to play might change the fighting game landscape in a lot of ways which is exciting.
10:57 wow that damage on fury fuse. Sol Braumguy
the only touch of death combo i appreciate are the ones that require super natural execution like Ash Crimson.
TODs are usually resource and situation based, the ones that i saw, need 3 or even more bars of super
Tod just isn't fun to play against but players should be having equal fun.
@@asjeje 1- TODs are situation and resource reliant.
2- The game has a burst, that let you get out of the combo, if you get TODed, its in part due to your bad resource management
@@vulcaniel9348 doesn't stop the fact it's not fun when it happens. I start a match and all my health is gone
@@asjeje i dont mind it, its normal on tag games, if you dont like/dont want to deal with it, this game is not for you
Listening to the Infinite Azure stage music really makes me want to hit up the lab.
The button mapping is unintuitive as you said, I think if they could condense things to just 1 special button, it would be more comfortable. As for combo length, it's really just ekko and ahri that are too long, and they get long because of repeated moves.Ekko repeats a lot of specials in his combos, and Ahri does her S1, S1, airdash link upwards of 3 times for just a bnb. Minimizing OTGs and repeated moves in a combo would help greatly for overall combo length imo
What i feel like makes the combos take too long is the slower animations. Ive played thousands of hours of BBTAG and DBFZ and 30 second combos have never really bothered me. Maybe because so much seems like is happening. (Especially in BBTAG since it has a burst.) 2XKO combos dont just take long, but so much fewer moves, specials, cancels etc are happening so it FEELS even slower.
The only combo that bothers me in fighterz is S broly. He only has one combo he does, I played 20 minutes of him and know the exact notation of it XD
yea, just slightly faster than MK1
I'm still kind of shocked they went with a tag game since they're notoriously complex. Maybe because they wanted the team mode?
I am really happy about the depth and combos, I don't know if it's the best for the games numbers, but it's the kind of game I enjoy
It won't affect numbers, non-fighting game players are gonna lose and complain regardless. If it's not combos, it's gonna be complaining about pressure or oki, we see it time and time again. Appeasing this group is impossible unless you can somehow make them go even with veterans.
@@slithermayne2218 i don't think that's wholly true but i also think balance wise you should not have this many TOD combos like this, i also just think people in general don't particularly like being stuck in an effective cutscene. TOD combos are fine but they should be incredibly hard and very costly, not something that only needs an assist and 1 bar
@illford a game like marvel 3 had consistent resourceless infinites out the ass all over the roster and was still one of the top 2 premier fighting games of it's time by a wide margin, number 3 wasn't even close
I really hope they fix the intro animations so that they transition cleanly into the characters idle animations at the start of the fight
The game still has at least a year to come out, I'm sure they'll work on things of that nature after the core details have been nailed down
@@iliakatster I figure that’s something that will be addressed but with how focused they are on feedback I figured it wouldn’t hurt to mention just in case
iTs a ALPHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
This is why I love Combo Breakers in Killer Instinct. Even if you stuck in a long combo, the game give you a chance to get out of it if you have a good read and the opponent can counter you if they feel your gonna break your combo
Combo breaker is what Killer Instinct got right.
True. I'd prefer KI over 2XKO any day.
There is a combo breaker in this game as well
Actually it wasn't right..Because it was to many opportunities to break combos..Guessing game around will he break or not is stupid..Once they nerf Kan ra I left
Also no sbmm means that you have to know more to compete since you aren't always playing players of your level while also having to deal with the more experienced players that tend to follow fighting games closely.
to be fair, this is an early beta test. I'm sure that sbmm will be a thing on full release.
@@PracticalPotato I did word it properly but yes sbmm did not make sense for such a small playtest
man im not gonna lie, as a SF player i really enjoy these mechanics. Gives you the chance ot really have sdifferent startegies stand out from each other and gives you alot of freedom on how you want to win a game. Not good at parrying? Pick braum and illaio and focus on low-overhead pressure. Not good at comboing?: Pick darius and usze interactions to land big counter strikes. It really reminds of how the drive system felt at first. It seemed like waaaaaayyyy to much at first but then once you kind of find which part of the system you're more comfortable using you can kind of focus on that and build gameplkans around it Like for example if you hate impact and arent good at reacting with it you can build a gameplan around parry or baiting the enemy into getting hit with a raw super, practice quick 3-hot combos, etc. I like the direction the game is going in this sense and i think overtime it'll be great for the game and lead to some sick sets. When all systems seems essential to winning that really just means they all counter eachother well so you that there's a way around everything which I love. Really adds a true layer of tactics to it
I agree about all the necessary buttons. It feels like too much for me. Would love just one special button and have hella inputs associated with it.
I still find myself doing qcf motions just out of habit
This game is not hard at all, but it's also complex enough for casuals to make me wonder why the F they even bothered with simple inputs and a weird control squeme in the first place
I would assume they felt that making the inputs simple allowed for them to make other aspects more complex. Like if they had standard inputs there would probably be less movement options or something. Just lowering the barrier to entry.
Obviously I’m just guessing but I can see that being the thought process. Basically “let’s shift where the skill is placed” thinking that simple inputs would bring people in without having to sacrifice extra fighting game complexities.
the game is hard to do anything of decent use is i imagine is what's said because the long good stuff is pretty tricky, especially if your a newcomer. If your gonna have a special button why hve two especially since i mean they use down down motions anyway which tbh i think can be weirder than QCF, when i tried playing M3 characters like She Hulk or Phoenix Wright getting down down timing was actually kind of weird since it's not the most common motion imo.
But i also think you can have a simpl eneough game to get into and still have a high ceiling. Like i think Marvel 3 is simple enough for casuals to learn to do some basic combos on some combos but still hard enough to where you are going to need to sit in training mode.
I also think having varied character specific difficulty levels, like Captain America is a simple character to play you can make it easier to get used to a game if you just add beginner characters.
I also think devs just underestimate how much people are willing to learn something, if it looks cool people will generally put effort in. I have friends who initially played DBFZ casually but enjoyed it enough to do learning and actually got semi competitive with it trying to get rank up online and stuff.
TL:DR you can have a simple system and still make a game hard enough to not be an easy time for casuals trying to compete, learning is fine as long as it's not like some 17 year commitment to be a low level guy. I mean people will learn tekken at a basic low level just for casual reasons because the game (from what people i know say) is cool enough to be worthwile
It’s a fighting game yall don’t even play fighting games
to push people over the initial learning curve. you are not playing a fighting game until you can at least press your buttons and thats what the simple inputs helps with
One of the biggest barriers for casuals getting into fighting games is motion inputs for special moves, especially when applied to combos requiring specific timings. Designing the game with simple inputs removes the physical barrier of inputs and allows players to more easily learn the game’s specific mechanics, movement, neutral etc. without worrying about how to do a fireball or dp. It’s why modern controls are still really popular in SF6
The lack of motion inputs messes me up so much 😅. I’m so used to stuff like quarter or half circles for specials. I think it’s just something I’ll get used to with time
So curious to see how newer players are feeling about the two special buttons. As someone whos comfortable on classic inputs I am actually getting super confused in game with the two special buttons and find myself hitting the wrong ones all the time or even just hitting a light, medium, heavy input when I meant to hit a special because I am forgetting what does what. This is something I'll get used to with more time in the game but I wouldn't hate it if they added a classic and modern input mode. I would rather have 4 button classic inputs with 4 extra buttons for macros 100%
I think it's a bit less scary having simple Inputs honestly, I've played with normal QCF inputs for awhile and anytime I tried to get a friend into a fighting game their main thing holding them back is "I don't want to do motion inputs they are too hard" all my friends play smash bros though so it's not a fighting game thing.
Honestly the second special button makes the button layout feel pretty awkward, I think even for those who don’t play many fighting games. Most fighting games tend to have intuitive layouts for buttons like light medium heavy or Tekken’s left and right side attacks, but 2XKO’s light and medium attacks sitting parallel to the two special buttons almost makes you forget that there’s a heavy attack
@@cukkucake yeah I always mix-up a button in a combo whether that's S1 and S2 or a normal and a special, could just be something I need to get used to though
@@cukkucake It's really just an ABCS setup with a second S tbh.
I unfortunately didn't get into the alpha, but if they want to keep both long combos but keep interaction on both sides, they could always look into the MVCI solution and let your teammate tag in while you're being comboed to attempt a save.
Another one I was thinking about is based on Naruto: Clash of Ninja (series) where you had resources that filled over time to escape combos or attack out of being comboed. It wasn't a guaranteed get out of jail, and someone that read you could reset the combo. I just like the idea because league of legends has "trading" in lane phase and this thematically fits the bill.
Yes. At least for a SF and a Tekken player like myself, and I am in the highest rank in both. (Never touched a tag/vs game in my life)
I liked KI's attempt at giving the receiver of a combo some agency with the rock/paper/scissors combo-breaker mechanic.
Long combos were my biggest worry. That's one thing that kept me away from many team fighting games. Once players get good at combos it's just so mentally tiring to see the same long combos over and over.
Yeah it's boring. That's why I only watch low tier only marvel tournies when they're on now
You guys are so lame for that.
Thank you for covering what the devs are actually saying. Way too many people out there saying “this games gunna die cause the combos are too long”… yall the games got a year+ left before release
I feel like combo lenght in GBVR feels pretty good, there are certainly ways to extend them, they deal decent damage if you end on a (S)SA and don't take up a lot of time. At least I don't remember being annoyed watching my character geting beat to death^^
When I play a new fg, I rarely if ever think the complexity lies in the inputs rather in the long strings to memorize and adapt. Sure it takes a while to understand how to do a DP but once you know how to do a DP you can just always do it, that knowledge it can then be directly applied to other characters and even games, combo strings however, do not necessarily. So when they said they were going to make it easier, I figured they would implement auto combo systems or generally be shorter strings, not simpler inputs.
They should limit the combos to 1 OTG.
"the two newest entries into fighting games are 2xko and COTW" Actually Rivals 2 is coming as well and is very competitively focused as well.
MAKE PULSE A CONTROL SCHEME NOT FUSE!!!
Tldr: Needs real tutorial mode
Other than that, only issues I have with 2XKO rn is the lack of explanation/onboarding for the games mechanics and combo structure, and the control scheme.
The game has a lot of defensive mechanics; retreating guard, parry, push guard, the blue mini burst thing?, and green burst. However, because there is no tutorial I see a very small number of people actually using all these in-game. Obviously, this is because it's an alpha and all these mechanics are subject to change and I'm confident that will have some sort of "new player experience" kind of thing to help ease players into the game.
The main issue with the T button for me is that it just does too many things. There have been multiple where I wanted to use an Assist mid-combo but for got the Tag launcher instead, because they are the exact same input. Also, it can be very difficult in the midst of the chaos of this game to immediately gauge why a Tag/Assist might not come out. So having an audio cue or alert whenever u attempt an unavailable Tag/Assist would help a lot.
Overall, I LOVE the gameplay, combos, and mechanics just needs better explanations of all the awesome shit in this game.
I'm a bit torn on combo length. When supers get involved combos can last 20-30+ seconds but without them most tend to end around 8 seconds or so. That said I've always been a "Hey the old MvC intended routes of magic series into super is all I need" so if they get shortened again I won't be too upset.
I don't think the game is too hard but I think having this 6 character roster have 2 (arguably 3) "advanced" characters was a mistake in terms of onboarding. When defense is as difficult as it is having the act of intermediate offense for 2-3 of the characters being fairly difficult for newcomers really makes the game feel way harder than it really is.
The messed up part of stuff like that Ekko combo is he has at least 3 parts of it where he can intentionally drop the combo for a reset so you have to be paying attention for the full 20 seconds. If he does get the reset then you just have the watch the full thing cause your character is dead lol
Tag games are bruuuutal
yeah i think having easy characters is probably a better idea, like when i wanted to get into Marvel i could just play Captain America and learn the basics of the game and what you generally want to do, he's not the best and team composition may not be optimal but that's not a bad thing
I also think an actually good tutorial goes a long way for accessibility, you can have a hard game but if you have a good tutorial and good trial structure you can actually teach people the game well
@@SomniaCEplus you have to hold a button the whole time to tech, so you can’t even stretch your hands or neck for a second. Gotta hold light for 45 seconds I guess….
I will say, it is like you said. Adding "special" buttons makes it more difficult than having directional inputs on a LMH button system.
Even marvel 3 had 4 buttons but still had directional inputs and it works more fluidly.
Trying to bring mass appeal to a fighting game that is also a tag fighter with a groove system sounds a bit oxymoronic.
Yes, a game for everyone is a game for no one...
Completely agree
@@Link_IVThats the mentality that makes fighting games have 10 people playing them... In gonna tell you a story, Once uppon a time there was a game and this game had some issues thats why nobody played it but there were 10 people who were willing to play it even with the issues and they did for years but then another game appeared and this one was solving those issues appealing to more people but then those 10 people got mad because they accepted to play poorly designed games so how could they allow other players to be interested in the genra to play an easier and better made game...
@@yuji8592that story was ass ngl I need my seconds back
@@Link_IV But a game for the small few will be just that, small. Example, Blazblue is a series of anime fighting game that is constantly at Evo as a main or side event. The series has sold 1.7 million copies and is well received (mostly) by the fans. The problem is that it's hard to grow a series like that WITHOUT adding things for current fans OR changing your target audience to be bigger.
It's the age old problem of "Growing to the size of your tank". When a new blazblue comes out, most of the players are just previous blazblue players. New players don't just come from marketing, they also come from ease of entry. If you don't have both, you don't get newer players.
I figured this out with Modern on SF6. Eliminating motion inputs really does not = easy controls. Having to hold modifier buttons and use extra button combinations is legitimately more challenging than a motion input. You went from a logical kinetic motion to mashing cheat codes to get the right super to pop.
yeah, but it's actually way more fun doing motion inputs once you learned them than simply doing piano presses for 20 secs with the need of way more buttons if you don't have motions. Also opens up the design space more. You can't have that powerful reversals or even wildly different ones in terms of strength if the execution requirement is the same with a single button press + direction for everything.
6:47
Mom, can we have 2XKO?
No. We have 2XKO at home.
2XKO at home: Sleet Fighter 2: Immortal Combat.
I'm glad you mentioned fighterz because man, I played that game harrrrd for years until a bit before lab coat came out I wanna say? But one day I was playing it and noticed myself really raging at it and it dawned on me that the other games I was playing like marvel 3, while more busted and unfair, didn't make me rage. I thought about why that was and the answer was clear! Everyone I was fighting in DBFZ was so good now that every stray hit was confirmed into a 30 second combo and it made me want to die! Half the round you sit there pissed off waiting to play! If they added a 2 bar combo breaker like MvCI id probably still be playing
It´s like SF6 modern x2. I would really prefer motion inputs. But i actually appreciate the communications from the devs. They really care about feedback as it seems
I don't like how slow the combo animations are. It doesn't look right and takes forever
Already so much happening and there's still so much we haven't seen
Really interested to see how this turns out
I think it can be good to have really long combos, but only if there are ways to break them and tradeoffs involved. I think that in games that allow crazy long combos, there should be a meter that drains the longer a combo goes on, like almost none for a few hits, and then faster and faster as it continues. Emptying this bar does not end the combo, but it does leave you more vulnerable. On the defensive side, you can use a "combo breaker" move of some kind to throw the enemy back, but this move also spends from this same bar, and it spends more of your own bar to escape the more of your enemy's bar is remaining. So what this means is, it can be more efficient to let an enemy use some small combos on you and to only break his combo as his bar empties out, than to just spam break on every 2-3 hit string, because the latter would burn out this bar pretty quickly, but you can use this to prevent massively long chains. Likewise, if you DO use massively long chains, then if the enemy survives, they can start chains on you and you'd have nothing to fight them off with, so if you start out with long chains, then you're gambling away your future. I think this would allow a lot of flexibility, while still encouraging players to keep things small until they are ready to go in for the kill.
Games fun, hope to see more news on it sooner rather than later
Can’t believe people have been calling games without motions baby games for years and now a game without motion inputs is too hard lol. Just goes to show that motion inputs usually have nothing to do with a game’s difficulty XD
I get this does sound ironic on the surface, but it's because the easy inputs are usually just to remove complexity from the game using the pre-existing button scheme, whereas this game adds two completely new buttons to the scheme just to get rid of the easiest motion control. I don't think it's too complex, but as a pad player it's actually really frustrating to have to use shoulders for basic bnbs. Having 6 main buttons is literally the sole reason I don't play SF as a pad player.
@@crazysquriel Not even with modern?
@@dragonic22 If there is 6 main attack buttons then no. Tbh it's also too slow for me. I like anime fighters with intense, high paced mixes and combos more than footsies all game.
@@crazysquriel 'Having 6 main buttons is literally the sole reason I don't play SF as a pad player'
'Tbh it's also too slow for me'
?
@@dragonic22 I would be okay playing SF for what it is if my friends wanted me to play with them. It's a good game. I do prefer faster games and wouldn't choose SF if given the choice. However, since it's controls are a complete non-starter for me, I do not play the game, period. So it is the singular reason I don't play the game even with it not being my preference.
Just make a motion input and 1button special like street fighter 6 modern ctrl in that way we can separate beginners from vets
One thing to remember is that this game was advertised as a "play with your friends" fighting game (or at least, that's how I remember hearing about it when it was first announced). Simple inputs mean you can introduce your buddy who might not be as good at fighting games, and the extra complexity (two assists, holding the assist, fuses, etc.) is meant to be offloaded onto your teammate. Individually, the mechanics are simple, but unless you have a friend to back you up, it can be a bit overwhelming. Of course, this works both ways; if you have a teammate, you have to communicate with them on the spot or practice together to build habits (and even then, they're likely to improvise, which can be an issue when you're still new).
Overall, it is certainly quite complex. However, playing with a friend relieves you of a good chunk of the mental load.
From playing duos with my buddy who doesn’t play fighting games I can say it was a really fun experience helping him not only learn the game, but also being able to call out his opponent’s habits and having the option to jump in myself and give him an opening or just cleaning up myself by tagging in
Crazy to think that accessibility in new fighting games might actually come down to adding motions for special moves. Wild.
19:10 - And with more than 99 seconds on the clock, it's fucking forever.
This game isn’t easy or more accessible for new players is easy for the veteran, hard-core and intermediate players
Disagree as a veteran I had a hell of a time adjusting to the “simpler” controls. Rewiring a brain is hard to do
@@TheJALT2 but then after you adjust most likely you’ll be running through most of the players in your lobby
I think the game just has a steep learning curve. Not only do you have to learn two characters, you also have to synergize with their assists and tag combos. Definitely takes time to get used to by practicing, but the payoff feels better than almost any other fighting game I’ve played. LoL has a way steeper learning curve, so there’s no reason why this game shouldn’t be something that requires a lot of practice.
They could definitely change the health values and combo scaling. I don’t think Ekko and Ahri should have lower health than Yasuo when he’s doing far more damage. ToDs are cool to see, but terrible for the health of the game with the state they’re in currently. They’re definitely going to look heavily on that. Glad they’re going to make it harder to do and resource heavy.
Didn't Tekken 8 solved the extra input issue on Arcade stick by letting you do the special stuff with pressing two of the 4 main buttons?
I definitely think they could've made the control scheme better by only having one special button. For most of the roster the special buttons only have roughly 3 inputs so you could put all of those on a single special button without running out of directional input combinations with said button
I agree somewhat. Ekko and Illaoi actually have a pretty intuitive separation for their special buttons. One sets up tentacles/rewind points, and the other activates them. The rest of the cast doesn't seem to have much of a pattern, though.
I think the most beginner-friendly FG of today is Street Fighter 6. I’ve been playing FG’s since injustice, and never touched sf until 6. The layout, tutorials, and simplicity, are pretty hard to beat honestly. This game looks like DBFZ, never knowing when you can press buttons, in true vs fashion. Not a bad thing, but I’d say fg’s like this are generally harder to get into.
“Sir is that Beethovens 5th symphony?”
“Nah just practicing yasuo combos”
😂
Fast take before watching the video and only reading the title, this game its so easy to pick up mostly due to auto combos, if any newbie learns to dash and punish whiffs/unsafe stuff they are simply guaranteed to do so much damage just because of those. Best part is, those combos are not even optimal therefore it's not even an advantage, it's just a luxury for a new player/someone getting into fighting games, this is how a fighting game should try to welcome new people and since League of Legends its probably the biggest game on the market, this will surely welcome a lot of players from that game.
I think the game currently has a few things going against it the game sets as of right now go on waaaay too long. A best out of 3 lasts for what feels like 10 minutes. The game isn’t that fun to watch as a casual observer especially compared to TEKKEN 8 and street fighter 6. I know it’s in alpha but the fact that we only know if 6 characters and the game is coming out next year is very concerning considering that city of the wolves is coming out next year and we already know of like 11 characters. Also in the dev panel they stated that the game will be light on content/ game modes so I don’t see how it will maintain a casual audience. The game is promising but the team has a lot of work they need to do to get the game in a better place.
Well Jynx has already been confirmed. I’m assuming there will be 10-12 chars at launch
I just hope this doesn't end up like DNF duel. A ton of hype at the start but dies off quickly. They need to put in a lot of quality story mode content. Maybe an RPG mode like street fighter boss battles, just fun stuff that would keep the casuals coming back.
I see no chance of that because it will be a free to play game. Single player experiences don’t make any money in a free to play environment
@@RePlayQ they could do multi-player missions and boss battles.
I can totally see this happening. Tag fighter with groove system and small roster. Doesn't seem appealing
@@desenhista12There are gonna more characters by the time the game gets released.
I haven't played many 2D fighters that often in a while and I'm glad to hear my already not good ass is not the only one finding things like the controls and amount of buttons to be harder than usual
"And go play some 2xko" bro just pissed off the whole EU
Im in England and i got the alpha?
is it not allowed in the EU or something
@@harlem8015 EU💀
i hope there's gonna be combo trials at some point, for me combo trials really make me understand the combo structure and what to do when i eventually get a hit
i’m ngl the challenge of this game has made me WANT to get better. i actually appreciate the challenge, as someone who has only ever played platform fighters, this is a unique challenge i appreciate.
Yeah it sounds like it’s going to be a bit complicated. I’ll definitely try it but I’m already anticipating not really gelling with it. We shall see
9:08 - I like Braum. What he lacks in hair, he makes up in muscle! And a fabulous mustache.
Im glad other people agree that finding button configurations is really awkward. For me the other thing is a lot of system mechanics being bound to multiple inputs at once. I was able to do it in strive bc it was only fd but there is a lot to remember when theres like a bunch of these different combinations. Controls feel bloated to me :/ still having fun tho bc the input buffer is actually good and just kinda knows what im trying to do during combos half the time
I really like how SF6 handles combos. SF3 def had a stark lack of combos. You had hit confirms and juggles and most characters were stuck there.
And while Meterless combos are a perfect 3 hit sequence in SF6, if you burn ALL resources you get those long drawn out nail biters. But most games dont have the quantitiy of resources SF6 has so F.
As a skullgirls fan, I love long ass combos. The agency for the defender is in watching for resets (unless we’re talking TAC glitch long 😨)
same
As somebody who's been doing Street Fighter command inputs since SFII came out on SNES, I actually find a dedicated special button to be more challenging than simplified qcf controls like you get in Dragon Ball Fighterz or Marvel vs Capcom 2. I'm just not great at managing a ton of buttons, so if I can find depth in button1->button2->qcf->button2 that works better in my hands than button1->button2->down+button4
Just finished making some pate chinois (you know what that is roofle) and a new video. Time to get cozy.
I think that what made Mahvels long combos bearable is because the neutral was so chaotic
Fighting games are just hard. Competitive games are hard. Going against other humans just isn’t easy. If people want their feel good mash button and win games go play story based games where you don’t even need to block. I’m tired of ppl playing purposely challenging things like Elden ring or Fighting games and then complaining when they can’t stream roll through it. Just stop, go play something else
Preach 🙏
Go play some CANDY CRUSHHH LETS GOOOOOOOOOOO
This is the only thing i hate about fighting games getting more popular. The “too hard” arguments melt my brain. Yeah, they are hard. They always were, this is one of the reasons why we love them, if you don’t, why do you stay just to complain about it.
Well said 👏
@@arpadszabo661 exactly, the game is marvel inspired and part of vs game identity to me is long creative combos.
Honestly, I think there should be a control option that makes it so you CAN do motions for special moves. It would free up a couple buttons for assist, dash macro, ect. For those of us who play on stick, don't mind doing motion inputs and find it hard to keep track so many buttons... Or maybe that's just me.
You could appease both parties that want combos the same or want them shorter by simply making it so a cinematic supers have an instant animation if used at the end of a combo or at the end of a combo that is longer than a few hits.
that way you still get to see the animations when you manage to pull one out raw or from a hit confirm
For the Ekko combo at 15:24, 15:32 is where the combo should, realistically, end. That would be an 8 second combo, is flashy, has multiple moving parts, and could have a satisfying ending. This is, in my opinion, the ideal combo length/structure. But once that "Break!" comes in, the combo is annoying.
Also, I really hope they put in a little bit more work to allow people to use motion inputs if they want to, to help minimize how many different buttons you have.
I'd be very intrigued to see how long the honeymoon period lasts for this. 2xko has an audience from a largely competitive community who may not normally play fighting games, and casual fgc players typically stay in the single player modes or play online with friend groups. Balancing the ranked/online with single player content is going to be a key part here. Especially as SF6 showed you can bring those two things together in the early release period pretty well via battlehubs.
This game looks like a complicated version of bbtag and it it looks really fun
Something that I find really interesting is that some of the complexity of assists seems intentuonal because it is technically easier foe duos
TOD combos are a TOD to casual players.
obviously not cause DBFZ was a wild success and its absolutely rotten with ToD combos
@@rooflemonger Dragon ball is a cultural phenomenon. League is not. Casual players did stop playing. Purchasing is not the same.
@@greasemasterreviews2594 for over 10 years league is either the most popular game on the entire planet, or in the top 3. I think you are living under a rock here bud lol
@@rooflemonger Come on Roof, this is a weird take man. League is not even close to the level of popularity that Dragon Ball is. It's not even close. I have to assume you're gaslighting for fun. DBFZ player base literally shows casuals quit after two months on steam. The goal is to find a way to keep more of them. TOD is not it.
@@greasemasterreviews2594I hate League of Legends but Rooflemonger is literally correct. In the gaming space, LoL is as popular as it gets outside of Minecraft and sometimes Fortnite. Dragonball's cultural influence is heavily skewed by time on this planet, too, rather than raw popularity. LoL has had absurd staying power for *any* media franchise, let alone a video game that's been using the same skeleton for over a decade.
From a Game Designers personal opinion as long as there is good information in game on how to actually improve and notice that improvement for the player is the way to make people enjoy putting time in improving, which is needed to fully enjoy the entire experience and not feel like you’re bad or should just stick to your comfort games.
I completely agree that neutral is the best part and combos are just something that need to be performed and be completed without leaving both players unengaged for too long.
I think the issue is that people assumed that having a low skill floor would mean a low skill ceiling. However, that's not the case with 2XKO and its seems that the ceiling is very high.
I think its just fun. I have 5000 hours tekken and 1000 hours sf6 and i cant remember the last time had that much fun straight out the box.
Combos are far too lengthy for how easy they are to convert, extend and loop. I just don't think any combo that isn't super conditional should last more than 8 seconds
I might actually be descent at this since I play fighting games with a keyboard.
been ignoring this and will continue to do so until it's closer to release
So on the combo length thing, shorter combos are better yes, however that depends on the damage/scaling of the combos and what I mean by that is
Short Combo + High Damage = Neutral becomes the best way to play.
Short Combo + Low Damage = Intentional resets become the best way to play.
Long combo + High damage = Mix ups become more important/the best way to play
Long combo + Low damage = Optimazation becomes the best way to play
Where we want it is Medium Combo + Medium damage = nice middle ground where all styles and modes of play are just about equal right?
However that is a very nebulous thing to pin down, but Riot is pretty good about that so I am not concerned.
In terms of simpler games not being able to make it in the long haul I would kind of refute that with Smash Bros and Brawlhalla. Yes, platformer fighters are very different than 2D fighters but they're also like the BIGGEST fighting games in terms of player base and staying power. Heck if it weren't for Nintendo actively getting in the way the Smash Bros scene would probably be the biggest fgc esport by this point
Platform fighters are mechanically complex so the simpler inputs aren't really a problem. That's the argument for 2xko as well.
granblue versus style optional motion inputs would make a world of difference in my book
That’s a mountain of buttons, there’s no way I’ll ever succeed in this.
That said, if this is an alpha, the full version is gonna be super sick
Hated getting hit by Braum command grab. Feels like 5 seconds from it connecting to the next attack hitting.
I'm not very good at fighting games myself, but I always understood the basics... coming into this game, it was super easy to understand the controls and learn how to do the basic pulse combos without pulse. From there, I saw people online doing crazy combos, but this didn't discourage me. Instead, I watched videos of the crazy combos, figured out what ability that was, went to training, and got the timing down in between abilities... it's that simple. I can get 25+ hit combos now, no problem, because the inputs are consistent and not hard to pull off in the heat of the moment. For this reason, I don't think the game is too hard at all. just get good fr.
However, I will agree that some combos are too long. TOD should not be a thing. It hasn't happened to me yet, but still, sometimes I feel like I can go grab a coffee and come back before the enemy is done with his stun lock.
Tell me why the game has a quarter circle as decoration in private lobbies when they brag about not having motions in the game
8 distinct buttons is kinda wild, like Granblue Rising is technically 6 buttons but in practice is essentially 8 buttons and it's pretty headspinny for me, can't imagine wrestling with 8
I think the design philosophie is to actually have a game that rivals the big team games in complexity like umvc3 but at the same time do not hide the cool stuff behind difficult inputs. like for new players its pretty easy to have something cool happen on screen whats other games already "gated" behind a shorio motion with 2 attack buttons or something. Also the combo fuse lets you mash to have something cool happen on screen. But the high end is like top level E-Sport stuff - Thats how it looks to me at least (i have no access).
then it will most likely be a matter of matchmaking. I guess the playerbase for this could be big enough to have that so that lobbys do not get too sweaty. But in general riot always designs for high level esport, where its pretty clear when you jump in, that you can have fun, but also learn very fast, that its not casual. How this will turn out for 2xko will be interesting. In games like legue or valorant people where encouraged to learn and then become very engaged with the game and the scene. Its still up for debate if this will also work for a fighting game or not.
The learning curve is my problem. I feel like a noob without my motion inputs. Also trying to remember what buttons do what. I’m just brain freezing 🥶 constantly
Fighters will always be niche