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The Firefighters' Dilemma
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 พ.ค. 2017
- It’s taking a lot longer for firefighters to arrive at emergencies than it did 20 years ago and people are dying unnecessarily.
Our film follows a fire crew who are trying to rescue Alice, who could be anyone’s grandmother, wife, sister or friend, but they face the dilemma of waiting for backup or entering the burning building without all the resources they need.
Sign the petition to demand national standards to improve rescue response times across the UK: www.change.org/p/theresa-may-...
#TimeToSaveLives
Over here in Germany you also are not allowed to go into a burning building without a second squad with breathing apparatuses, but you are allowed to break that rule if lifes are in danger. If there is a person inside the first squad can go into the building, if there is a fire but everyone is out of the building you don't go in without a safety squad outside that can go in and rescue the first squad if something happens.
Interesting that other countries don't have any rule like that.
They would have BA, this is the Fire Brigade Union, making a point and taking some liberties for politics sake.
We do,, rapid response
We have 2 men that go straight in if it's person reported but normally we have a team of 2 and a emergency BA team
In this day and age we have to brake the rules to get our job done..it's not right but sometimes it's what needs to be done
yea
this is true just watch the video that I have linked even though it does not involve fire watch till the very end
th-cam.com/video/KECyUfVerMg/w-d-xo.html
@@michaelsae2437 ah London’s Burning, one of my favourite episodes, old Tate was my favourite
Everyone in the comments that are saying the video is stupid and that the firefighters could have gotten the women out easily with no backup, you are missing the point. The video is just to get people thinking about the significantly lower number of firefighters that protect us, like I remember a few months ago there was a fire near where I live, the whole house was involved upon arrival and there was only one engine company staffed with four firefighters as the first due set of units. So obviously, not much they can do in that situation until more people get there. The next set of units, only an engine and heavy rescue company carrying three firefighters on each rig arrived six minutes later. By then the victim was certainly deceased. Long story short, we need more firefighters in a shorter amount of time.
there was little smoke and no fire when there CM opened the letterbox, and surely they could enter through the bathroom window and then exit through the door. usually they wouldn't follow regulations if it is persons reported. most firefighters would ignore the regulations to save someones life.
beeney2 fair enough she has the moral pressure of it. But usually in a crew of 4 the OIC takes care of the BA entry control board until a back up crew arrives and the driver automatically should set in a hydrant. She was right in saying they needed an emergency crew, but because they knew it was persons reported they should set their priorities on rescuing the person without a backup crew
beeney2 fair enough for D class areas, but the area this was set in looks like at least a C/B class area which does require a wholetime pump to be in the area. Fair enough this is probably a retained crew and in most country side places the nearest backup is in the next town, but even so they could have been rigged and have entered the building by the time the backup crew arrived meaning that if they get into difficulty the backup is either on the way or on scene
Plus, It doesn't only apply to fires. I live right near a major highway and obviously it's a lot easier and faster to extricate a victim from a car with 12 members instead of 4.
@@itz_cam-ok1hq can i just remind you what if the fire was blocking the exits nobody can walk through fire
In real life the first crew would break the rules in the knowledge that breaching H and S procedures would leave them defenceless if they were killed or injured. The Government and Fire Authorities know this but still write rules to protect the Fire Authority and not the firefighter. Now, extrapolate the application of this situation to NHS and police officers and you realise the magnitude of Government deceit to the public in need of the three 'blue light' services!
Listen punk any real fireman would bust down the door in a sec. This is some type of bs add
And to add to it if we've got a confirmed entrapment and we know there alive like in this video we would have taken the window grabbed the victim given her to the officer taken off scba and bailed out the window , and another thing was they didn't use the irons with a flat head axe ( that's the setup we use in America) , so they had a harder time then needed, but come on you know you've got a live victim no firefighter is going to stand Outside and let someone die and I know that goes for us in America as well as firefighters across the world we know there's a life to save we're going in to make that save
Under no circumstance would I have gone in that flat without backup. what good does it do the victim if my partner and I get trapped ourselves on the way in? what if the bathroom door is locked? or what if opening that window causes a backdraft? you never know whats going on inside the building so I would never go in without backup and a reliable source of water.
Micsmit 45 my question is this why did only one engine respond to a house fire with entrapment , do you guys not have a ladder and a pumper respond together that's how my department does it we roll two engines and a ladder and they automatically tone for Mutual aid
@@itsyaboimat2393 In the UK they rarely send ladder trucks, But if this was real there would of been 2 pump engines sent.
FDNY Chief Hugh Halligan is turning over in his grave at how his tool was improperly used.
Yes you are right this makes me sad as a volunteer firefighter sometimes we don't have alot of crew but we do it anyways get there and save life and put out fire no wait
Absolutely respect our fire services, the greatest and the bravest for sure.
I have been a fire fighter for 13 years and if someone was inside and I couldn't get through the door I would break the window. If you notice at the beginning of the video when the woman in charge looked through the letter box there wasn't that much smoke and no fire, there really would be no dilemma, it would be a case of either kicking in the door or breaking a window and climbing in. I have been to enough house fires in my career and a few with only a crew of four and we did not wait for backup. I am a wholetime fire fighter who has served both in rural and in urban areas with the nearest pump sometimes at least 10 or 15 minutes away, if we waited for more resources there would be a lot of dead people and destroyed property. Let's get things into perspective, we have been riding with crews of four for many years (yes I know it is not ideal) but for heaven's sake this video paints a completely false picture. Believe you me there is no way that an officer in charge would stop me breaking into a house with someone inside. I believe the FBU is painting a false narrative here, and I feel that there is no way a fire crew would do what the above would do.
aren't you worried about the inflow of oxygen?
Koba, no not at all. Again if you notice at the beginning there wasn't much smoke so the fire had not developed so there would be no particular danger. Two firefighters in breathing apparatus could easily get the lady out of that flat.
I am a firefighter with 24 years service the video is just to illustrate the point we need more resources not cuts , in my time in the job i have seen the difference that cuts to frontline services have made to how we respond . Support the FBU we have enough opposition with the politicians and management without firefighters jumping in as well.
If that room was ready to light up, she wouldn't be sitting up at the table talking. I get what they want to achieve here as far as staffing goes but it made them look like cowards.
One firefighter once told me "risk a lot to save a lot, risk a little to save a little." By going in the window to get the woman risks you not getting out alive but you save the elderly woman. I don't know what I would do. This same firefighter told me when explaining an accident scene that "We didn't make this mess, we are here to help. You are the most important person on scene." The safety of the team is a high priority but it is hard to sit by and watch somone die.
I have absolutely no respect for people who watch this video and then carp and criticise the brave firefighters who risk their lives every day to save lives
I can't, and won't, blame the LFB for the damn dangerous jobs on the daily basis, nor indeed firecrews the world over, as these people would/will walk through fire to save lives ...
... instead, my anger is at the pencil pushers at the HM Treasury that demands cuts, which ends up with budget cuts to every FRS in the UK; hell, in my area alone, there is a plan to reduce three police stations down to just one in just one entire borough council alone ... nuts ...
It’s the regulations that people are upset with. We can’t do much without it being deemed “too dangerous.” There’s a limit to what’s reasonable but also a limit to what should be regulated.
@@colbyh.4933
Exactly ... I mean, come-on, when has 'evaluate the situation, and use your own best judgement' by FRS officers became regulated to the nth degree ...
Yes, she had to balance the safety of the crew, but not to the detrement of the casulties ... risk management should be dynamic in such circumstances, and not rigidly formulaic by a inflexible SOP ...
nigelft If the video is to believed too then it shouldn’t have even been an issue, flames in the room the woman was in were minimal at best, a proper set of irons could breach the door easily, and you could use a water can to knock down a path to reach the woman and extract her. You don’t need to make a full interior attack till more help arrives, but at least get the old woman out.
@@colbyh.4933
Exactly ... if she had more experience on the job as a SO, she would have taken the more resonable, abet still calculated, risk, as you adroitly suggested; the problem I think is that, knowing about the regs layed down by both the LFB, and the Union, she may have been nervous about having a ton of bricks fall on her, for not following the correct SOP ...
My old man as a fireman and you don’t realise how dangerous a job these blokes do!
And women
@@oscarosullivan4513 lets be honest women firefighters can't cut it. Woke boy.
@@gameram6382 The audacity to imply I am offended when you clearly care what genitals a Fire fighter has.
The last fatal my Dad went on in the LFB before he was injured was to a ‘persons reported’ house fire. They only had 3 on the pump & on arrival were the only appliance there. My Dad grabbed a builders ladder in the garden & entered the house without BA. His driver/pump operator was manning the hose & the 3rd Fireman was going in through the front door putting his BA on. They saved 2 of the 4 residents & broke every rule in the book but that 1 person doesn’t give a damn about the rules because they were saved; if the crew had waited for other to arrive, took time to slip their own ladder & don BA there’d have been more deaths. Sometimes you have to break the rules to the right thing.
I’d love to be in the british fire service, to be honest, it has been my dream since i was 3 years old.
'I can't let you in till we have back up'. Never heard of the size 9 key? Priority of any Firefighter worth his/her salt is to safe life not 'OOOh I can't let you in without back up'. This makes us look like a bunch of GMFRS Managers not loyal public servants!!!
Her job is to make sure her team gets out safe. Three lives lost is much worse than just the one.
ok i have several objections 1. what if the door was and obviously reinforced
2. what if the windows were reinforced
3. in that way with only 1 team of 4 it would be way to dangerous
and 4. if the door was opened and since its reinforced there aint no way no one without firefighters personal protective equipment is going out alive
Interesting video because while those tools are adequate for most incidents this particular one required heavy machinery to deal with a reinforced door. Firefighters should have the best most innovative equipment to compensate for fewer engine crews.
Better still convicted non violent offenders should be conscripted into useful work such as firefighting instead of being sent to prison.
I've been in the fbu for 29 years and am somewhat amazed by this vidio ??? All operational firefighters realise the dangers of cuts . But this vidio only highlights the incompetence of a crew manager who's lack of commonsense and experience which is sadly missing as is a lot of newly promoted officers lately . It puts the service in a really bad light instead of highlighting the danger of cuts ?????
so true i a kid i wanna be fire fighter this is ridicules breaking the window couls cause the building to flash over killing them all this is stupid because they have plenty of tools to force entry not just a ram and a haligan
for american firefighters 9/11 will always be the worst and most remembered day of all time and for UK firefighters will always be grenfell fire
In Finland we can break door with motorshaw
Sorry I have bad english
Rapid development im going in.
Ya also they apparently forgot an attack line
Is that door a goddamn vault door, why's it so hard to break down.
Its re-enforced
@@Zackislivid I know
@@pingu1986 witch opening it, it would fuel the fire killing her instantly, if you we're in that situation, your not coming back out alive, have a fucking smoke detector, it saves lives
@@Zackislivid Yeah she probably won't want her house to be broken into thats why she had it reinforced so it's harder to get in but if there was a fire and she can't get to the door then it'd be pretty hard to get in without any other points of entry.
@@pingu1986 its common in the uk.
(im not missing the point just pointing smth out) Surely you'd send atleast 2 pumps to a Life Risk?
What a load of rubbish any firefighter would been in there in no time.
Dany Cotton London's Fire Commissioner the most Senior Firefighter in London has said "we don't need any more funding" in a June 24th The Times article ! So what's the true story ?
@beeney2
Word has it, she said that because not only the spending cuts handed down from the HM Treasury via the Home Office, was cutting into the fat, but also the lean, and even muscle as well. The number of not just crews, appliances, but entire stations, being made redundant is rediculious, just because of economics. Granted, the number of individual house fires has gone down, but as Grenfell showed, a serious involved fire can easily draw down a massive amount of resources, thining out the coverage across London.
Hence I, as a Londoner, am somewhat jelious of the FDNY. Granted, London is not New York, but in the actual event of a 10+ pump fire, especially in a high rise residental building, they have the resources to commit to such a blaze, without compromising the safety of the rest of the city.
Actually the LFB is, imho, seriously unfunded. But, as Commissioner, a rôle which is as much politician as an actual serving fire officer, by openly saying that 'we don't need any more funding', the sub-text is 'we don't further cuts, either'. My guess, along the old hands I have talked to, if she did openly plead for extra funding that the LFB does actually need, not only would she be slapped down hard, but as the feeling is that too much money is already spent on crews and appliances 'just sitting idle', and since this government is still operating on 'Austerity', any pleading for extra money, is, in the weird world of political calculus, actually means its over-funded; hence percieved fat (which is actually lean, and worse, muscle) is thus cut, a calculation seemingly based solely on economics, or, in my day, a slide rule and a stop-watch; penny wise, but pound foolish, especially given the ongoing catastrophe which is not only Brexit, but the profligate spending on, say, Universal Credit, which should be scrapped altogether, despite the crazy amount of money having been, and continued to be, spent on it ...
In short, the HM Treasury is profligate with its spending, which is convinced will ultimately will have a high RoI, or at least, allegedly, long-term cost savings, whilst cutting spending in other areas, just to balence the books ... which is a weird way of funding important local services, such as FRSs, across the UK ...
Love the FDNY they will go into any type of hazardous situation without any backup. Using ALL HANDS TRANSMIT A SECOND ALARM 10-60. Ding ding ding to the rescue. Hats off to the Firefighters of Engine Companies 229, 216, 237, 221, 206 and 207. Division 11 Rocks the House. 35 Battalion transmits a SECOND ALARM on arrival. Engine Company 229 first due on box 77-155 that would eventually go to a FIFTH ALARM FIRE within minutes. Engine Company 206 first due on a box that would eventually go to a BOROUGH CALL and end up being the first multiple alarm Fire for the Entire SUPERPUMPER SYSTEM. Rest In Peace for the 343 FDNY firefighters who lost their lives on September 11, 2001 at The World Trade Center Attacks.
shut up?
I mean, mad respect to FDNY firefighters but I'm not sure going in without any backup is something to brag about. Sometimes it's necessary yes but it's super risky and can result in more casualties than otherwise
This is a fucking stupid rule "can't let you in without backup" here in the Philippines if we verified that there's people trap inside and the fire isn't blazing, we could have barge in. A firefighter should be resourceful of whatever you have at hand.
Ever think of breaking window then unlocking door on way out???
Backdraft
Not a good idea
@@Zackislivid yeah a backdraft is when in a room theres gas or vapor or oxygen capable of setting a blaze but it needs more oxygen to ignite the flame so opening a door or window and bassicaly any ventilation source would just make it go *explosion nosies* and practically creating massive flames
I mean you can it won’t really harm anything in doing so and plus it’s a better egress if required
don't they have the think police use.
Koba yes but not as good
A lot of people here are missing the point .if you are a civilian then you are excused your comments.But if you are a firefighter then shame on you.Cutbacks in all public services have cost lives in the UK and Ireland in the last seven or eight years with less firefighters less nurses and less police officers.As for the comments of Americans shame on you,your government wastes an obscene amount of money in the Middle East fighting wars that you can never win.While your firefighters in Cities like Detroit are under severe pressure fighting a war against fire that can be won if they are given the resources and support.Its the same the world over the majority of people who die in fires are poor people. The Gnomes of Zurich and the Wall street fat cats and the traders of “the city of London “ just do not care.
Is the moral of this story: "don't get reinforced doors"? What the hell was these doors? Taken from bank vault? How hard can it be for two trained men with tools to break down stupid doors?
blinx88pl you've obviously never had to break a door down before.
I did, when my lock broke. Didn't have any training, didn't have any tools. After third or fourth kick they let go.
I bought a house with a reinforced door and I never forget coming home once and some fucker was fitting a new door.
At that time my old man was station officer at the local fire station.
The cheeky fucker never said anything and got his mate to fit a standard door then charged me!
ITS RENFORCED AND NOT SAFE THE BACK DRAFT CAN KNOCK THEM OFF THE BALCONY PEOPLE DONT UNDER STAND FIREFIGHTING DONT THEY GOD AM 12 AND I KNOW LOADS ABOUT FIREFIGHTING
@@blinx88pl then do reinforced
Get the saw cut the door open . airpack needed also .
Ok 1. Its not called a saw 2. It would have been very dangerous to cut the door open. 3. it isnt called an airpack its called a breathing aparatus
bs reinforced doors may have a 100% guarrantee you may die in a fire and the fire's blocking the key and the door gets opened most likely in any way and also airpacks are not called that its called a breathing aparatus
They can go rapid deployment 😅
And this is why we should always send 2 pumps 2 a call.
if it's persons reported it's normally 4
Meanwhile FDNY: 2 engines 2 ladders plus another engine and a battalion if I’m correct
In the Netherlands we have something called a chainsaw...
shady grove
The LFB has a 'universal key' aka a 40-45lb (18 - 20kg) sledge hammer ... problem with a chainsaw is that it carrying a petrol driven one is a) heavy, and b), may be a firerisk in itself, especially in a flashover ...
And you can't use a chainsaw in a smoke filled environment.
@@mehistaimsaar1323 where they were it would have worked
You have no respect do you? Think before you speak.
@@harrylester2177 Hes pointing out a issue from the film. What does it have to do with not having respect. It's just a unrealistic part of the film and (correct me if I'm wrong) but also in france they have and use chainsaws.
Did alice die?
louis boulter Yep. 😓😭
This is a training video, not real life. They have the 2 weakest FFs employed if that door was not floored!!
Should have attacked the hinges.
I would assume so
@@robertoverall4078 Door was Reinforced with Multiple locks meaning it was harder to break down.
Actors
Obviously, it's not a documentary
I'm totally behind the call to resource the Fire Service properly, but sorry guys, this video is awful. The message isn't clear and the entry dilemma, just detracts from the real issue of under funding.
Oh shit u can't open a damn door and get the lady out here in us from were i am from we get her out in time and have the fire out 3 people one on the hose and two for the lady if she cant walk or one for the lady and 2 for the hose get in there and put out the fire we don't wait. Waiting is bad it kills life's
Oh jesus crist our fireifighters are way more modern than us firefighters, and in the uk house invasions are very common so people reenforce doors to stop that, also opening the door would fry her, due to oxygen supply of the fire witch would make the fire bigger.
@@Zackislivid for american firefighters 9/11 will always be the worst and most remembered day in history, and for UK firefighters will be grenfell fire
@@Zackislivid with all that modern equipment you really can’t save 1 fucking woman from some apartment room dude I can do the same shit with SCBA my gear and haligan + axe in a matter of minutes
Put the door in before anything else, especially since she’s conscious and shouting for help. Over dramatic and woke friendly.
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And this is why I hate watching firefighting shows, they’re always wrong and make us look like idiots
If they broke the window the backdraft could kill the lady inside?🤔
That much white smoke pouring out? Backdraft would not be a concern.
@@TheModernSnipez the flames will just generate darker smoke and at worse could even do burns
Hard to watch. They should have used the crowbar to crate tension and then use a battering ram 🐏 😂. Minutes had passed when the commander wasn't communicating with the woman to check her welfare. I understand the narrative but it was poorly executed and not much of a dilemma because most people in the comments like myself would've got that door open!.
Can't force the door? Have the officer actually wear a pack. Send two through the window with a rope back tied off on the railing. Officer assists with a TIC from the window partially inside. Easy.
BACK DRAFT ITS A TRAING VIDEO
@@Zackislivid your my favourite person at reminding people about firefighting obstacles and difficulties
well here in Germany for examlpe we also wait for backup units befor going in a Burning building, not like in the USA where you just jump in the Building...well thats a reason why in the US are dying over 100 firefighters a year and like 15000 Injured and then for example in Germany there are just like 1-10 dead and 20 Injured in a year.
This is an awful representation of the Fire Department..... Yikes.
The problem is the CM stood about doing nothing when the could have been driving the haligan in with a sledge. The FF on the sledge also shows a complete lack of understanding of how to force a door. I understand the point in this video, but this makes firefighters look highly incompetent; it's embarrassing. Considering the amount of money the FBU generates from it's membership, it could do a lot better than this.
my objections are:
it could cause a backdraft
doors freakin reinforced
windows could also be reinforced with bars
lives are mroe important then property
fighting fire from outside in the conditions i just mentioned is a no go
and dear hal liganbar she would die then
@@littleent1359 A backdraft is only a risk when o2 is re-introduced into an underventilated compartment with a fire in it's degradation stage. The very small sign of flame, and the total lack of neutral plane upon arrival, means that any sort ventilation (I.e. Opening the door or window) is going to make no difference to the fire. That is clearly not a door that is reinforced. Perhaps a multi-point security bar operated by a euro cylinder, which can be easily opened with a set of mole grips and a biting gauge. And if that fails, the hinge style is the weakest point, which a haligan bar can easily overcome. This video is dramatised to the point of absurdity, and makes firefighters look incompetent. An experienced crew would be in there in under 2 minutes. And given that they are opting for a hose reel, the 1800l tank on the engine will more than suffice to tackle the fire; no need to ship a hydrant.
no no no if u smash a window it has the potantial to flash over killing them all
@@vinyowlworth8159 no mate they have to gain entrance the the property and do a search while having the hose ready it is the second ba crew that would put the fire out I know what I am on about
@@comunitygaming214 wow they cant even find a way to get inside a small flat, hard to imagine what grenfell was like and LFB got the blame for it
@@Gencturk92 the funny part here is their using a fucking battering ram instead of a good haligan and axe to just forcible entry the door down and get a line inside this is just such a stupid and sad display of how firefighting is done th-cam.com/users/shorts86FHP_bwdBM?feature=share
Also whoever this leader woman person is a failure send the crew in and save the life then follow procedure if you like seriously. There’s volunteer departments with less payment than UK departments who can do their job perfectly fine this just seems like over complicating the issue and not to say funding isn’t a issue it is but this ain’t a way to show it.
Oh good lord. Didn't have a proper set of irons. Hey look all I can carry is a Halligan bar and not an axe. I guess you never heard of a Tic. I understand this video is supposed to stir debate about needing more help but I don't think this video sets the right kind of debate. It's more like hey we are wannabe fire fighters. can't do our job correctly because of piss poor training (ie only bringing a halligan tool and no axe to help set it to try and defeat the locks. If you want to show that you need more help then show how you can start putting the fire out prior to the second alarm company showing up. All this video did was show how a paid fire dept. cant do its job with all the training they have and these are the same folks who talk shit about us Vol. FF not being able to do the job even though we go through the same kind of training.
First off, thanks for your service to help keep your community safe. This situation sadly happened in Detroit. www.statter911.com/2011/09/15/charlie-shows-so-does-the-commissioner-girl-dies-in-detroit-house-fire-there-are-lots-of-questions-about-the-fire-department-response/
The point is it's a single, Pump ladder, station due to budget cuts appliances are being scraped and it shows crews can't do their job with this amount of funding
this is another video by the FBU and it shows why this has come to this,th-cam.com/video/67HJZj93o3E/w-d-xo.html
the point of this is to show that fire fighters have to make life or death decides.
@@kayne49 uh you do realize some of us made the choice of joining the fire service like myself. So don’t tell me about life or death situations. I’ve been a vol FF going on 11 years and have seen a couple of FF die in the line of duty in my neck of the woods saving lives. So spare me the life and death crap. This video didn’t even come close to showing what your talking about.
Cut backs got to pay for a the dinghy divers crossing the channel on boays 4 to 5 star hotels plus 50 pounds a day not cheap, currently bill 6 million pounds a day fact and still rising. Don't believe me do some research and pull your head out of your @££