"A lot of Ocarina of Time's music was borrowed from A Link to the Past" Well, except for... Kokiri Forest Hyrule Field Hyrule Castle Town Lon Lon Ranch/Epona's Song That song that plays when you're sneaking through the castle to see Zelda for the first time Goron City Zora's Domain Gerudo Valley The Temple of Time/Song of Time The Lost Woods/Saria's Song The Song of Storms Sheik's Theme Kotake and Koume's Theme The theme that plays when you enter someone's house Almost every song you can play on your ocarina Every dungeon theme other than Ganon's castle You know... MOST OF THIS GAME'S SOUNDTRACK.
UmJammerSully when I think about Ocarina of Time's soundtrack, I don't hear Ganons theme, kakariko, fairy fountain or Zelda's lullaby, I hear gerudo valley, forest temple, sarias song, goron city, and the song of time You know, the most iconic music from the game
You know, Forrest is a really good host. He's good at keeping all of them on topic and getting them to expound on their thoughts and during the 3 game brackets he was good about making sure all three games got equal discussion time. This was a good series
Overall, they all did really good. I feel terrible for Jirard. Everything he was trying to defend would lose. It really should've been Banjo vs Mario 64
listen peebs ... you guys need to have a structured setup for season 2 so each item gets equal time discussing its positives.. this was jirard badmouthing OoT for 65% of the video... hardly balanced... pass the word along, m'kay? LOL
For future "seasons" of Madness, may I make a suggestion: instead of having the round table voting, what if you had other stream decks for each person, 2-3 of the buttons would be for voting, and then reveal the votes at the end. I do enjoy the round table discussion, but taking turns on voting seems to add some peer pressure. As Austin put it before his vote, it becomes irrelevant after 3 votes in one direction. And instead of acting as the judge or mediator, Forrest could just be the host who also gets a vote.
I'm late to the party on this comment, I'm re-watching the series again, but I agree 100%; I think some of the votes were swayed by peer pressure and having initial anonymity would have gone a long way towards it feeling like a more natural debate.
Yeah I don’t know what they were going for there. That’s EVERY Legend Of Zelda game. I think there is a lot of personal bias towards 64 (except for Jared)
Before I watch this whole sucker here, I would like to say that, despite some annoyances with the arguments and choices, overall this was a good series. You guys really thought about things and came together in agreement of how you were going to tackle the question of best N64 game and brought your experiences to the table in a thoughtful manner. Even when it was obvious you had a strong bias you still listened to each other and also took from each other's arguments to bring new perspective to the table on the games you supported. It's great to see good discussion. While I personally did not agree with everything said, most of my annoyances were just my own personal thoughts on the system and the influences of the games discussed. Now, I'm gonna watch this titanic matchup like the giddy Nintendo fan that I am!
Doug Carrel I think when I boils down to video games most people who still talk about games that are older than 10 years tend to be in one of two categories and I felt like the crew fell into both. You have the people who have a harder time taking off the nostalgia glasses and the people who are passionate about the games. In this case I felt like they kept slipping between these two categories and at times it made it somewhat hard to take their opinions without questioning “why is this being mentioned now and not earlier?” Or “why is this the definition of best 64 game now?”
Doug Carrel It's a great concept. I just think that debating what is the "best" game is going to honestly make it look like a shit show no matter how civil you make it. It's like debating politics to a certain degree, everyone has a "legitimate" (hehe sometimes) opinion, and most people would rather debate than argue.
Ocarina had the most cohesive world you could have in a game in 1998. Playing the game in 1998 was the equivalent of playing Skyrim in 2011. I would know I played them both at the time of their release. Both were magical games.
I enjoyed these, but in the future, please try to stick to a theme with voting. We jumped from multiplayer being the most important, impact to gaming, to now ignoring nostalgia. Almost every other episodes argument contradicted the next episodes argument. I know it's all in good fun. Just wanted to give my personal opinion on the show. Can't wait for the next season.
I agree! At one point they praise star fox because of how used the hardware and then when they pointed out how much sm64 was hindered by hardware then it wasn't a big deal. Is hardware important or not?!
@@w0197 using well everything the hardware let's you you is a big point I'm favor but being hindered by the hardware it's not the games fault so it should take pints from the game towards being good
I think when ranking games you need to evaluate how well each game accomplished what it set out to be and compare that. So is Mario Party a better multiplayer game than Mario 64 is a platformer etc.
I agree, consistency did seem to be a problem from one ep. to another. Art is the expression of values; We all have different things we value more highly in games over others given our taste and life experiences with them. Maybe attributing points for different reasons to an overall total could help keep things objective and consistent? Or arguing about something other than "Best 64 Game" which is vague. The 64 is so special to so many people because of subjective reasons saturated with nostalgia and personal memories, it's just fun to think about these games and talk about them, especially when others share the same, niche sentiments.
The inspirational music that creeped in during Jirard's speech (9:55) about the launch title overshadowing the rest really put this over the top. I'd like to see more of this
"Just finding your way through the dungeon shouldn't be a puzzle." ......WHAT?! Yes, yes, it absolutely should. That's how a well designed dungeon should always be.
I think if you have puzzles and need to figure it out is important but if you get lost just cause you dont have a decent map or where you are in the area...
I completely agree. That comment was pretty asinine. Getting through the dungeon should always be a puzzle. That’s the whole point. Hating on the water temple is honestly such a meme. If you disregard having to open the menu to change boots and just view the dungeon on its own, it’s not the worst at all. I like it more than the forest temple and shadow temple, honestly.
To everyone thus far, I get what he meant; he meant the puzzles should be contained, not navigating it and still, no. Commenter number 2, I’m with you on the forest being worse, but it’s actually key number and placement that makes me hate Water. It’s a meme, but it was hated long before the internet blew up. And my main point is that dungeons (especially in Zelda) are trials. They’re meant to be a big puzzle, even down to navigating the map of it. It would be so boring and lazy to only have dedicated individual puzzle rooms in a straight-forward line. (Here come Temple of Time jokes)
"Boo Hoo I get lost in dungeons" Uh... yeah. It's a *DUNGEON.* It's supposed to be labyrinthine. That's why the map and compass are important treasures.
Literally how are they confused about the cohesive world thing? In one game you’re jumping between separate areas that have nothing to do with each other and in the other you’re in one huge world with interconnected areas that loop around on each other
It shouldn’t really require much explanation, the others got away with straight up falsehoods about the music without explaining it or backing it up whatsoever lol
Exactly my thoughts as well, I kept thinking from the very start you jump into paintings and Zelda you making your way through a world which is all connected!
For me, that’s what made SM64 a great game. Each level felt unique and interesting to play. Imagine all painting levels being the style of Peach’s Castle, would get very stale fast. The enemies, stars, coins, cannons, power-ups and objectives kept the game cohesive enough.
Ok that pissed me off Ocarina of time Only borrowed 3 tracks from a link to the past zeldas lullaby kakariko village and ganons castle Everything else was original
A few of these guys actually said that Mario had better music than Zelda. Like w t f they did not think this through. Should have played a few songs from each to wake them up. Either that or they are tone deaf
MP Studios To be fair, the more important ones have flowers in front. Now Dante’s grave digging would be an actually complaint, but it’s small. And it’s not like the first boss was easy as heck when a common enemy killed me 5 times...
Ocarina of Time isn't as incredible as people say for the most part, but once you get to the end, with Ganon's Castle and these short dungeon segments, then climbing the tower, and as soon as you get to the top you realise this is where it gets real. The tension alone in the fight, TAKING AWAY TARGETING AFTER USING IT FOR THE WHOLE GAME (you realise how much you needed it), then that chase down the tower and you think it's all over, until suddenly it isn't. The combination of shock, and the music that plays, constructs one of the most incredible moments in a game, ever. The epic conclusion leaves a sense of majesty, and you finally can rest knowing that it's over.
See they kept going back and forth on better n64 game to just better game. I dont even know what that means. If its a better game then its a better n64 game right? Jared voted for Ocarina in Ocarina vs Majoras but said Majoras was a better game...THEN VOTE FOR IT! Sheesh I hope they get more consistency with this series. It has potential.
Crutch & Wheels Gaming they mean which game was best for the system it was made for compared to which game is the best game when it comes to gameplay, music, graphics, story,menu systems, etc
The meme is that something can be the "better n64 game" and not the better game. If you want to call something a more representative game for the system, then you can just look up a list of the most popular games on the system. There wouldn't need to be a fucking discussion if the topic was just what is the game which is the most emblematic of the system. The better game on the n64 is more worthy of actual discussion. Super Mario 64 > Ocarina. Mario has yet to reach the level of gameplay variety and loving creativity of the 90s again. Everything has been at least a step down, and at worst a disgrace.
See this is a way better explanation than anyone has given about the better "N64" game. I see what you mean. I still prefer Ocarina though but to each their own.
So here is the deal. Banjo is a better made platformer than Mario, but Jirard was preaching to the choir since a member of normal boots hasn't even played it. Hands down Banjo wins in my book.
I don't understand the layout of the show I guess. The definition of the N64 in my opinion is a multiplayer console. I don't/can't understand why so many 1 player games for a system that literally lacked the hardware to actually give that experience. Every other system during that time had much better 1 player games. I don't think this show has anything to do with "the best N64 game". If it did think about your friends that didn't have a N64 and had a PlayStation or Xbox those people never came to your house to play Mario 64 but they sure did line up to play goldeneye. I'm not saying goldeneye should win but that game and mario kart gave a 4 player experience that was stand alone for the N64 and unavailable on other consoles at the time. That is what made the 64 the 64.
@@natevoss9199 You say it was the multiplayer console but the best loved games on most lists are mostly single player experiences. Mario, Banjo, Banjo Again, Zelda, Zelda Again, D.K., etc. I know I almost never played N64 multiplayer games. I just don't think it's true. At least not mainly true.
to be fair when defending Golden Eye and Banjo he didn't have almost any good argument, and couldn't properly defend Smash, I agree with his vote almost every chapter but no one in the group is really good at argument making
I don't agree at all, Jirard's arguments seemed the weakest of them all. he rambled on a lot about nothing, and brought up topics that didn't really relate.
Jirad felt like the only one that came to the table with arguments prepared.... That might be the only reason I would feel bad for him. Otherwise he admitted he was biased.
@@col7004 Yeah kind of. Ocarina of time is better than Mario 64 for the following reasons: It has a large scale story with hours of dialogue. A hundred different people to talk to in the world. Tons of progression in the form of items, abilities, weapons, outfits, songs, horse riding and growing older as adult Link. Mario feels the same whether you played for 10 minutes or 100 hours. He doesn't really gain anything new. Zelda has deeper fighting and actual combat. It has some platforming but obv Mario is better here. Link looks dope, is anime-eske & Mario is a red midget plumber which is not as dope. There are shops and towns in Zelda OOT. It has time travel. You can actually spend the rupees you collect. It has a day night cycle. You can teleport and fast travel. It has better boss battles, a larger variety of enemies and plenty of unique ways to take down enemies rather than just button smash attack or jump on their head. Zelda has better cut scenes and cinematics. Zelda has better puzzles. Zelda has better music, you could argue Mario's is better in ways but Zelda kind of revolves around music and songs that affect gameplay so i'm going to give it to Zelda. Mario is really great for what it is but Zelda is better imo.
The reasons they are saying ocarina of time was bad (not knowing what to do in dungeons after playing it again) is a positive to me. I want to feel like I havent played a game upon replaying it. Jirard contradicts himself saying he knows how to solve the puzzles in Zelda but in the dungeons forgets where to go. The dungeons area puzzle in themselves. Also, basically Mario 64 has traditional levels where as Zelda is its own one world. I understand what PBG was saying. I actually like Sunshine more than 64. Ocarina def is the best out of these two though. Jared asks what does Ocarina of time do better than Mario 64 is a little baited and biased. I think Ocarina does everything better. I would normally upvote this video even though I disagree with the choice but the fact that this whole series everyone was so hypocritical I cant upvote it. PS I didnt downvote either.
mario is the same way though in regards of replaying it. yeah it being a 3d platformer you can figure out new faster ways to get to a star but for the most part its just "oh that star. yeah lets just do this and bam got it...next one" i have played both games very recently and even though mario is still very very fun ocarina felt way better when progression happened
I had a similar thought -- not sure what to do next even though I've played that dungeon multiple times over the years, makes the experience "new" again. That's more fun for me and more replayable. I'm not a speedrunner so beating a level faster isn't my personal goal.
I feel like they really need to stop using the argument "Which game is more important to gaming" since it really hinders their choices. They basically all unanimously agreed that Majors's Mask was the better game over Ocarina but gave it to Ocarina because it was more influential? Why should that give a game the edge? It became the building block that drove the series to become stale and need the change that is Breath Of The Wild. Mario 64 brought 3D platforming to Gaming but that was about it. By that previous logic, Banjo Kazooie should be in the finals as its format is continued to be used today and I would argue has more in common with Mario Odyssey than Mario 64 does. Basically just judge a game by which was most fun and whether you would play it again. Also listen to Jirard more lol
Luke T. I disagree vehemently. For instance, God of War popularized quick time events which is a universally shit upon concept. God of war is not a bad game, but quick time events being made through it does not make it better just because GoW had “influence”
They did not decide on Ocarina because it was more influential. They decided on Ocarina because, for a brand new player, it is way more accessible and easier to understand than Majora's Mask. I would never recommend Majora's Mask as somebody's first 3D Zelda. But I would recommend Ocarina in that place any day. Now to clarify, I too love Majora's Mask more than Ocarina. But it took time for that opinion to come about because it took me significantly longer to beat Majora than it did Ocarina. The first part of Majora is daunting and alienating to brand new players, and I have firsthand experience with that. Ocarina doesn't have this issue. From the beginning of the game it explains what is going on and you are learning everything at your own pace in the Kokiri Forest. In Majora, you feel like you have no time to learn at your own pace because the face of the apocalypse is literally staring down at you.
I'm of the opinion that originality is a little bit overrated. If something is fun, then it's fun; no matter how many times it's been used. Same for music, same for story elements. I for one do not feel, in any form or fashion, that the Zelda series before BotW had become stale. I judged each of them on their own merits, and they each had high and low points about them. Same is true about BotW. In fact, all in all, I like BothW less than many of the previous Zelda titles.
The time when Furst said that no other platformer rivaled mario64 until mario Odyssey was so sad. Banjo kazooie is at least as good and better in a lot of areas :(
Nathan-DTS I don't like bringing up this argument either. But I agree. Fun is substantially what helps get new players into games. BUT games are also merited by their art, music, story, and game design. Games are art (yeah I said it) and appreciating the factors of what a game does in narrative, tone, presentation, and mechanics should be taken into consideration.
I think what they were trying to get at, about the "Cohesive World" bit, is that in Mario 64 you basically go to disjointed levels that aren't connected at all, but in Ocarina of Time, everywhere has a clear connection. You can look in a direction and be like "Okay it's that way to Lake Hylia" and turn to the left and say "But if I go that way I'm heading to Kokiri Forest".
Noah Lamberty people just get thrown off by it but it’s a really fun game if just know what you are doing once you figure it out the game is a breeze with a great story
Mario 64 impacted gaming as whole more, but Ocarina of Time impacted me as a person more and that’s why I’d choose Ocarina because it is much more of a personal journey than Mario 64. Although it should have been Majora in the fight lol.
Nah I would say Zelda impacted games more. Zelda= God of War, Dark souls, Horizon Zero Dawn. Mario=Jak and Daxter and Crash Bandicoot.. Obviously Zelda had a much bigger impact with the rpg elements, progression, tools, weapons, story. Mario is just a big collectathon, you get stars.. compared to Zelda which is a massive epic adventure with time travel.
Honestly, while I am upset by the verdict, I do think a lot of the arguments were bad arguments. So many of them were simply differences between the two. Mario may be a joy start to finish, but Zelda was never trying to be that. The games are paced differently. Zelda is more about immersing yourself in the world, and you go through a lot of different emotions. I mean, it would be pretty bad if when Link left the forest and Saria caught to say her tearful good bye you were thinking about how much fun you're having. But its a sad moment, and it does it well. Hyrule field may be big and empty, but it was a breath of fresh air after going into the depth of a dark dungeon. It was a natural break in between moments. And you know, Peach's Castle didn't really have a lot going for it either. Of course you're going to have an easier time getting your bearings Mario, all the levels were big and open with obvious landmarks. Whereas a Zelda dungeon is suppose to be a little more difficult to navigate, that's why there's always a map and compass to find as rewards for exploration. You are suppose to get lost, part of the satisfaction is finding your way through. And how was Mario more original than Zelda? You went through a bunch of themed worlds, jumping and stomping on goombas, trying to rescue Peach from Bowser. It's laid out differently, but all the things Ocarina of Time gets flack for having borrowed are very shallow, surface level similarities. On the surface, Mario 64 is just as bad. I'd argue Ocarina had more new stuff than Mario. Music? Ocarina used 3 or 4 A Link to the Past songs. It still had lots of new ones. And just the Ocarina songs themselves were short, doesn't mean they're not songs. Still full melodies. Neither of these games were trying to be completely original in that regard though, because the transition into 3D was more important. Also, both made the transition really well, but there's one really important factor they didn't mention: the camera. One is known for how bad it was, the other is hailed as being revolutionary and setting a new industry standard. The whole thing felt really one sided, like they needed to justify picking Super Mario 64. And I do think at least part of that was because Ocarina of Time is so often at the tops of so many "best of" lists.
Matthordika It seemed like all of the points they made against OoT that made Mario "better" were all things that OoT did great... For the style of game it was trying to be. It seemed like for this episode, they picked a style of game they wanted to win (something that has a lot of fun segments) and just went with it. Instead of comparing the games on what they did best in each of their respective genres. But I think their thought process was that the more "fun" game encapsulates the N64 more? Idk. I didn't really agree with any of the points they made.
I agree. They didn't take the time to really talk about the merits of Ocarina of Time. Ocarina of Time broke barriers and did something completely new where as Super Mario 64 was just a 3D platformer. How revolutionary is it to jump from one spot to another?
Matthordika: well said sir. They focused on what is "fun" way too much, the fun factor depends on how a game is made, for example dark souls, is it "fun?" hell no! is it a great game? you betcha. What im trying to say is a game should be judged on the experience not just how fun it is.
DejaVoodooDoll But sure the same could be said with puzzles and exploration. Struggle with it? Then get good. Fun is subjective, but it’s still important to realise that Ocarina of Time is a different kind of fun.
'Whereas a Zelda dungeon is suppose to be a little more difficult to navigate, that's why there's always a map and compass to find as rewards for exploration. You are suppose to get lost, part of the satisfaction is finding your way through.' Funnily enough, it only takes a few randomizers in order to remember wherer each and every gold skulltula, chest, and room is. They say it's hard to remember (or at least imply so), but the dungeons don't get any less fun even if you know where everything is and how to get it. That's the major pro of a 3D game: there's more than one way to go at a problem, and all of them are right.
Leighton Petty Tbh, I don’t know if I’ve ever been more triggered by any game vs in my life... And I wish they would’ve said they’re going with what’s objectively better or try to shake things up, but no: they just inconsistent.
"Reuses ALttP soundtrack" Apparently, paying tribute to a few tracks from a previous game in a series equates to completely reusing the entire soundtrack. ???????????????
I'm curious if anyone from normal ever ever took note of this or if they're MapPat-ing the situation and ignoring something that isn't that big a deal to begin with but still acting like they're right...
Oot is the game i wanted to win, its more satisfying its more cohesive, and at the end im more happy and i feel more rewarded. I feel like the hero of time. Not too say mario 64 Is a bad game, but i just like oot better
This may be off topic but thank you for linking the bg music in the description, guys! I've really been digging it. Also, this was great fun and I really enjoy the debate format!! Looking forward to another round!! Maybe with more consoles in the future? We didn't have Nintendo in my country until the Wii, so these arguments are fascinating to me as a neutral party. I'd love to hear about the SNES for instance (If possible considering the insane amount of games on it)
Water Temple is a great dungeon and is one of the reasons Ocarina of Time does 3D so well. The whole dungeon should be a puzzle, and water temple makes you think about the entire structure as one giant puzzle. There are more dungeons that make you puzzle out the whole dungeon rather than just going from room to room to solve individual bite sized puzzles. The music is not all borrowed either, tracks like Hyrule Field, Gerudo Valley, and Lost Woods are still considered some of the best music in Zelda. While part of Ganondorf's fight may be borrowed, you completely overlooked every other boss in the game. There are other similarities but each boss had to be rethought of in a 3D space, you're never fighting the exact same boss from ALTTP. Mario's ending has tricky platforming and a final bowser fight, while Ocarina of Time has you storm Hyrule Castle, which has been the whole goal since you became adult, and climb all the way up Ganon's tower, fighting several of the hardest enemies of the game as the organ music of Ganon's theme becomes increasingly louder. Leading up to Ganondorf who has taunted and toyed with you, to finally have enough skill and power to face off with him. Theres the whole collapse sequence and the final form Ganon fight as well, this is far better than anything that could have been achieved in A Link to the Past. Ocarina of Time takes a lot of elements from the STORY of ALTTP, but the gameplay is entirely different. Even so, Ocarina of time has more fleshed out characters and improves on everything ALTTP does. Mario can win if that's the collective opinion, I've never played it so I can't really say you're wrong. But a lot of points against Ocarina were oversimplified or overlooking several things. I feel there was no argument for Ocarina of Time during this one.
Oh hey there’s that nonsense false argument again that most of Ocarina Of Time’s music came from A Link To The Past lol All 3 songs from OOT that came from ALTTP, the same number of songs in MARIO 64 total just about vs the entire 18739283 original compositions in OOT Hell I prefer Mario 64 as a game but that is such a bullshit argument it’s unreal
I agree, though I feel you're being a little harsh on SM64's soundtrack. Off the top of my head, I'm gonna try to name the reused ALTTP songs in OOT: 1. Kakariko Village; 2. Ganon's Theme (but they expanded on it) 3. Zelda's Lullaby (also expanded to a degree). That's all I can think of, so you're right.
Grumpoo Da Zumbie I’m talking main pieces of music. In Mario 64 you have the Game Selection, Peaches Castle, Dire Dire Docks, Tick Tock Clock, Bob Omb Battlefield, Hazy Maze Cave, Lethal Lava Land, Bowser and Bowser stages. Then obvi the end credits and cap tunes. Quite a few yeah, but Ocarina of Time not only has way more, but of the 3 most iconic songs from Mario64 - Bob Omb Battlefield, Peaches Castle and Dire Dire Docks, that’s about how many songs were reused in OOT from Alttp
Luigi 64DD main thing being the “point” they used somehow to OOT’s detriment is that OOT is just fuuuull of music from ALTTP when in reality it’s as many songs reused as Mario 64 has that anyone really ever talks about - Bob Omb Battlefield, Dire Dire Docks and Peaches Castle. Yeah there’s more songs but who talks about them compared to those three? As compared to Ocarina having its title theme, Lost Woods, Song of Storms, all the dungeon themes (particularly the Forest Temple), Ganon’s Boss fight, the end credits, Kokiri Village, Goron City, Lon Lon Ranch, Hyrule Field - all these extremely iconic songs The ratio is way different than they’re putting it lol
Lol yeah, i don't get it, not even the main zelda theme returns in OoT (while it does in MM) but the original mario theme do returns in the menu music of mario 64. Overall music i think is a point against mario 64, since it reuses so much of the tracks multiple times, like the dire dire docks theme or the rainbow cruise/ minigame/ tick tock clock theme. While Ocarina of time has a varied soundtrack throughout most of the game
Diego G exactly, Mario 64 has a handful of songs that are used throughout the whole game while OOT has different music for almost every area even above I forgot about Zora’s Domain and Gerudo Valley too. In terms of music I’d go so far as to say OOT is objectively faaaaar more iconic on a much larger scale than Mario 64 and it honestly annoys the hell out of me for that straight up falsehood to be all it takes for them to dismiss it’s music.
I think Ocarina of Time should have won since everything in that game that you do has a purpose. It has a better adventure which is what they used as a determining factor for what a good N64 game is. I personally think that Zelda translated better into 3D because it took everything that worked in Link Between Worlds and put it in a 3D environment. Although Mario did expand on what makes a good platformer, it is still a much different game from its predecessors. In Mario 64 the worlds you are in have no purpose but to get stars. Therefore, there is no reason that Mario needs to be in one place opposed to another. In Zelda everything has a purpose, and you know why you are completing each dungeon. When Gannon is finally defeated you get a true sense of fulfillment like you finished a long journey. Ramblings aside I loved this series. I can’t wait for more!
Literally everyone is not even talking about Gameplay the only things M64 was good at was Gameplay and Music but these things were just that good M64 topped Ocarina of Time
"Ocarina of time has boring parts while Mario 64 does not" wrong, the difference is that in Mario 64 you can skip those boring parts, you can focus on getting all the stars in bob omb battlefield and only 1 or 2 in haze maze cave or tick tock clock or any other level you don't like and still finish the game, but it's not like you can skip the water temple (which isn't even that hard, get over it) in ocarina, Mario 64 does that Jared says Sonic Adventure 2 does to you, it makes you focus on the good parts you enjoy and avoid the ones you don't like, but Zelda, being a more linear story driven adventure can not afford that
18:04 “what’s something that zelda does better than Mario 64?” Everyone choked? -Combat -Traveling -Variety in items -Narrative -Time Travel lol Easy question and for being gentlemen who dedicate their lives to gaming, surprised they stayed quiet lol
Just started highschool and been watching 2 a these a week every week so far really helps me get through it and have Soemthing to look forward too loved this keep up the good work boyos
Banjo Kazooie did Super Mario 64 better. Mario came off like a demo of what you can do on the 64. Then Banjo said "Yeah yeah, got it" and then made a funner more fantastic adventure with magical transformations, characters with actual personalities, memorable sounds, etc.
“I like it when the game plays itself for me, and I just sit and watch. It’s pretty fun.” I was literally playing Football Manager when he said that...
hahaha this is a joke Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time is the greatest game of all time m64 is a good game but could never hold a candle to Ocarina of Time
As someone who played both Mario 64 and Ocarina of Time recently (no nostalgia from me), OOT was so much better and aged way better. Zelda has amazing puzzles and variety of gameplay with many new tools. So the Zelda game has so much to offer. Also music is definitely more memorable with Zelda OOT. Mario 64 was great for 1996 but not for today as many things are outdated gameplay wise. I would score OOT 9/10 and Mario 64 7/10
Well, I was wrong about the winner, to my pleasure. I reluctantly thought the obvious would win, but alas, I was wrong. This has put a smile on my face and I'm glad that the usual winner didn't win this time.
Zelda didn't get a fair shake here. I liked the series but this was a pretty frustrating episode. The negative arguments for Zelda kinda stole the narrative without good counter points. Even if they were valid (which they werent) it made this rather uninteresting. Regarding 3D space and orientation or confusion complaint: a 3D platformer is obviously going to work different than a close-knit 3D adventure game with hand-to-hand combat. The zoomed out camera and wild and colorful worlds are easy benefits to orientation in Mario. However, Mario was also like the first big 3D game... at all. Zelda took the queues and improved on them. Z target got it's complaints in these episodes, but it was still excellent and made combat possible. The complaint about no jumping in Zelda? Think about the games that improved on these formulas. Until BOTW a bunch of great Zelda games continued to avoid jumping. It's easy to argue that while Zelda's Z targeting bugs were smoothed out in future games the approach stayed very much the same for a long time. Just like 3D changed the formula for platforming, it became a part of adventuring and puzzle solving. Aiming with a hookshot and arrows to reach new solutions. Climbing, falling, hovering, and swmiming are important too. Now Mario has targeting for Cappy. The music argument was crap as many others have pointed out. Music was a huge part of the quest in OoT. I think the Zelda music was also more of a technical accomplishment due to the limitation of the Ocarina, and became subsequently iconic and special. OoT completely solidified the importance of music in the series. LttP didn't do that. And how was OoT's contiguous world approach used as a knock against it? The game was originally designed as a hub world concept until they struggled to improve it and achieved a mostly cohesive world to aid in the adventure asthetic. Owl flies you around and plays the game for you? OoT progresses on a continuing theme of making the world larger and more open. Tons of Zelda games offer quick transportation to allow a large world to explore that can also be navigated quickly to prevent frustration. BOTW has this in spades. Platformers don't have to have hub worlds - even Odyssey has these but worlds are getting larger and more immersive. Mario's level dynamics were a technical limitation that OoT did a better job of overcoming. Rose-colored glasses? Howe was this even used as an argument against OoT? OoT cam after Mario, the *first* game on the system. If OoT wowed people so much to keep it listed as "greatest of all time" for so long, how does that argument sway anyone toward Mario? Not knocking Mario. Unfortunately you ran out of time to actually mention the positives of OoT. Where is the story and the characters? The same things that were well liked about Majora's Mask over Banjo? Where is the legitimate music discussion? How about the accomplishment of moving toward a more open world? I don't think this episode really made any effort to capture the reasons why OoT has been so universally loved. When you live with something at the top for so long, maybe it's easier to see the arguments tearing it down then to remember the reasons that it got put there in the first place.
jason no idea who you are but i love you all the same kind stranger, lol.. My sentiments exactly i noticed jirard was still upset about banjo so he refused to let anything positive about OoT float in the air before rushing to pop the bubble. pro jared switches his opinions so often in this series , which is ironic considering he knocked the water temple for something similar , lol. i thought the same about the "rose tinted glasses" thing. WHY are they assuming the listmakers never replayed their FAVOURITE GAME EVER!? i used to love projared and i never cared much for jirard(seems nice tho) but this series soured my opinion of them both. that seems petty i guess but they were both extremely unfair... i also love pbg to death but man is he bad at making points, lol
I'll knock Mario: The only reason it won, in the end, was that it has a fun factor to it. Except it isn't fun. Platformers live and die on one mechanic: jumping to traverse a world. Is that really fun? Moving and pressing one button over and over and over to do the same action? Both N64 Zeldas had a tonne more to do in every game. There was movement, puzzle solving, combat, and even some platforming here and there. Mario's "puzzles" were literally just "go to this place, do this one thing, get star." Not to mention that SM64 (and every 3D Mario until Odyssey) kicks you out of the level when you get a star, so then you have to re-enter the level. It just always felt like such a waste of time, even as a kid. Also, OoT has a lot better glitches to be used in the game, too. Infinite sword glitch is amazing, and bomb hovering will never not be fun.
@@exiled5160 agree completely about jirard. every good thing that was said about oot left him with a confused face and a rebuttal of "yeah, but mario...." this was a really tough episode to watch, even though (or maybe because) the end result was telegraphed from the beginning.
I’m sorry you’re disappointed, but if you want to see Zelda win, go to literally any other top N64 games list. Everyone thinks OoT is the best. I was kinda glad to see something else come out on top!
I agree, myself, on the rose tinted glasses. But that's also unfair as far as M64 goes considering it was the 64's launch title. Here's the thing: not everyone loved the brand new 3D aspect of Mario just as much as not everyone liking the dungeon aspects of a 3D Zelda game. In all honesty, these guys could be gave a much better overview of these two games as far as aesthetic and mechanics and music.
This got soooooo intense! Your guys commentary made me feel like I was there! Almost verbally agreeing and disagreeing with y’all! Cant WAIT for Season 2! Such an intense journey! 😂
"The Mario levels are better because you can remember them, and that makes it better than Zelda because when you replay a dungeon not everything is obvious." Literally a few minutes later: "Mario is better because Zelda's puzzles are too easy to remember and everything is too obvious." ...uh.
It's almost as if the entire video feels like a hit piece on Ocarina because it tops the best of lists even two decades later. Their arguments did not feel completely logical and some were flat out wrong.
Yeah, Jirard even straight up admitted he didn't want Ocarina to win because it always wins. Which, I love Jirard, but that feels like a really cheap reason to throw the vote. I felt like they did it dirty. I would have been fine with them giving it to Mario if they'd made a strong argument for it, but they discounted all of Zelda's strong points, distorted facts about how much it borrowed from its predecessor (music was way exaggerated), and then did straight up contradictions like above. It felt a little disingenuous. It's their show, of course, but I hope next time they decide from the start what categories they're going to judge games on and vote accordingly. Like, it could be something like, Gameplay, Story, Fun, Visuals, Music, Multiplayer, Replayability, Datedness, Relationship with the system it's on, Originality, Historical significance, Personal overall preference. That's a lot of categories, but those are all arguments they've used, and I feel some have been unfairly emphasized. They could assign each category a maximum number of points to help weight things (e.g. gameplay should have more weight in the final vote than whether a game has multiplayer). They could debate each category and then give each game zero to max points. They could also give both the same points if they feel it's too close to call. Then make a final vote from there. This is a much more clinical approach, I know, but it'd help keep them from sticking on minor points, at least. They could still keep it fun. Another way could be to just make each category win/lose/draw, but while this keeps things more fun, it throws out weighting. Still, a bit of organization would be nice, especially to prevent situations like this where a vote feels unjustified.
I also think final votes should be secret/written down and done at the same time. They can still reveal the votes with explanation as a round table, but secret voting avoids peer pressure/spite votes. E.g. If someone is fourth in a three-way vote (not naming names, but this should sound familiar, lol), and the other three have voted A, A, B. They were going to vote C, but the best C can do is 2-1-2, a tie. So they vote B out of spite because they don't want A to win, hoping Forrest will also vote B so they win. But they would have really voted C in a secret vote, and didn't really think B should win. That isn't what I'd consider a fair vote.
HolyShtWrestling “Their arguments did not feel completely logical” Yeah it’s almost as if this is just an engaging conversation between friends and does not follow “logic” because that’s not how human beings function. You want “logical”? You want “boring.”
Hahn95 both are great but for me the replay ability of banjo is much better than sm64. I will admit I did play banjo much more than mario and like mentioned in the video I could easily beat the whole game in 4-5 hours and know exactly what to do to obtain the 10 jiggys, But whenever i play sm64, quite a few times I end up looking on youtube on how to complete tasks for stars. But I’m sure if I played it more I could memorise each level as well as banjo kazooie. Also I really like how in sm64 you can skip levels (mentioned in the video). This makes the game more enjoyable when you don’t have to play the shit levels like jolly rogers bay.
I have really enjoyed these. Basically you have brought all my favourite content creators together to discuss something we all love. I want to see more of this. To make it even better, I would have more structure around the argumentation. Now it just jumps from one argument to another and good ideas and discussions are not finished. Thank you though, you are awesome^^
I would like to express my love for this series. I didn't agree with every point along the way, nor do I think that every single deciding factor actually mattered, but I liked the flow of conversation, there were definitely still some good points raised, and I respect each of you guys as individuals and game commentators. I sincerely look forward to more Madness!
Ocarina of Time was an emotional story. When I first played it I felt things about Saria, Ruto, Darunia, Malon, and pretty much every character. The characters were well developed within a dramatic story of their own outside of the main quest line. I was probably like 10 when I first played it and immediately fell in love with Saria because she is your ONLY friend as a child. There's so much depth in Ocarina of Time that even later games couldn't emulate.
Maybe it could be used Roget in some extra hits on a boss or avoid an enemy coming at you. Or even getting behind an enemy that's defending so you could wait less time to defeat it.
Losing yourself in Zelda dungeons is part of the challenge! Zelda, at its best, is a game about navigation. Maps and compasses are tools to help, but navigating the space successfully is an intentional part of the challenge, and now a flaw.
For me its ocarina of time. I think that to this day is one of the best story driven games, simply because i think it achieved a perfect balance between story and gameplay. The game doesn't take the controller away from you more than is necessary, but it also doesn't let you go for too much time, so that you don't you loose interest in the story. You don't have to sit through endless tutorials, hours of dialogue and exposition, but the story is still interesting to the point that i can play the game 20 times and not skip the dialogue, or not all of it. That, i think, is the underlined reason why everyone keeps coming back to this game, why it is probably the most replayable zelda game and why so many people keep considering it the best game of all time.
When I started this video I instantly said 'Super Mario 64' because while Ocarina of Time is spectacular I can ALWAYS think back to being a lass and playing Mario 64 for the first time and how not a lot of things could give me the same feeling that Mario 64 did. I felt like I was transported to a whole new world, even the fact that in the level before the castle the sound was so minimal it really felt like it was setting some kind of scene and I was blown away by that. I think I had lost my save file too and went back to try to beat it again and just got that same feeling being back there at the beginning. It really holds a place in my heart as one of those memorable experiences where I knew where I was but I ignored all my surroundings cause the game had captured me that strongly.
It feels like every time they brought up a valid point in Zeldas favor they immediately throw it aside and say "bt that's not what makes A GOOD N64 GAME" This Isgiving me flashbacks to Egoraptors hit piece in sequelitis where he basically whines about the good old days of limitations for a whole video. Also, straight up saying "ocarina of time always wins so I'm gonna vote against it" is the most hipster bullshit contrarian asshole excuse ever. Dont give me the "rose tinted glasses" thing because you're doing the exact same thing with Mario 64. I'm not saying Mario 64 couldn't have won either valid arguments, but this feels like they handicapped Ocarina if Time just so they could have a different outcome than everyone else
Great series. Buuuut The reason I agreed with Jirard so much is because this was a chance to make such an interesting bracket but of course Majoras won the losers round and of course it came down to OoT and Mario 64 and OF COURSE Mario 64 won. Hopefully the next one is more interesting and subjective... but again overall the personalities made it worth the watch and I’m excited for more.
To be fair, Mario 64’s castle is just as boring as Hyrule felid. What makes it fun is the anticipation of what world you’ll find next. also, it’s more fun to explore a hub as Mario than Link. I’d say Mario 64 is a game I can “beat” over and over again. It’s just fun. I can play-through and 100% that first set of worlds in Mario 64 over and over, and I love being able to skip wet dry world if I want. There’s also less of a motivation to 100% the game. 80 star, and I’m good. I usually stop around 60, then start a new file months later, but still. You get what I mean. Ocarina of Time on the other hand, I play through it at least once a year, but I hardly ever beat it. I tend to stop right before or after the water temple. I’ll leave it, come back many months later, and depending on if I feel like going through the first 3 dungeons or not, will influence me to either finish my old file, or start a new one. I do like Ocarina of Time more though. Mario 64 is just easier to replay. Think of it like this, I LOVE snicker and molten chocolate lava cakes. But let’s be real, which one am I probably gonna eat more often? Well, call Mario 64 a snickers, because I’m not me when I haven’t played it in a while.
I'm the opposite - I've played SM64 once and played the DS remake once (and not sure I even bothered to complete it) and never felt the urge to go back to it. Ocarina, I've played 25-30 times on N64 and a few times in various remakes.
I’m seeing a lot of “how long does it take to. Navigate Hyrule Field vs jumping back in the painting” If your jumping back in the painting, I’m assuming you died, and are trying again. If that’s the case, Ocarina of Time is literally the same. You die, get a Game Over, and hit YES to play again. If you died in the Forest Temple for example, you start in the Temple. If you die in anyplace actually, you start back in said temple/dungeon/grotto. Hyrule field FEELS more ridiculous only because as children, we died, quit, and came back the next day, thus spawning in the Temple of Time, Links house, or the dungeon. Mario 64, you always spawn outside. In the end, both are kind of invalid points. When taking both into consideration, and depending on the situation, neither is much faster than the other.
You're god damn right.
But you know who the real winner is - Knack 2 baybeee!!!
WHAT ABOUT KNACK II? DUNKEY NOOOOOOO
lol who’s this
AND THEN MARIO COMES AND OBLITERATES EVERY GAME ON EXISTANCE
Well, he also made a Breaking Bad reference, but carry on with only saying 'KNACK IS BACK BABY! HERE COMES THE MONAAAAYYYYYY! MONEY, MONEY, MONEY-'
"A lot of Ocarina of Time's music was borrowed from A Link to the Past"
Well, except for...
Kokiri Forest
Hyrule Field
Hyrule Castle Town
Lon Lon Ranch/Epona's Song
That song that plays when you're sneaking through the castle to see Zelda for the first time
Goron City
Zora's Domain
Gerudo Valley
The Temple of Time/Song of Time
The Lost Woods/Saria's Song
The Song of Storms
Sheik's Theme
Kotake and Koume's Theme
The theme that plays when you enter someone's house
Almost every song you can play on your ocarina
Every dungeon theme other than Ganon's castle
You know... MOST OF THIS GAME'S SOUNDTRACK.
Agree 100%
THANK YOU. Note how all the most iconic music from the game is right there too.
UmJammerSully when I think about Ocarina of Time's soundtrack, I don't hear Ganons theme, kakariko, fairy fountain or Zelda's lullaby, I hear gerudo valley, forest temple, sarias song, goron city, and the song of time
You know, the most iconic music from the game
@@ratsakcravingjose5001 well what do you think of smart guy?
Exactly! That was bugging the shit outta me when they said that haha.
You know, Forrest is a really good host. He's good at keeping all of them on topic and getting them to expound on their thoughts and during the 3 game brackets he was good about making sure all three games got equal discussion time. This was a good series
I agree! This was really well done and Forrest did a great job. Can't wait to see more!
I get the feeling he DMs
He’s made some pretty bad points at times but overall did a pretty good job I guess.
I liked him as a host as well
Overall, they all did really good. I feel terrible for Jirard. Everything he was trying to defend would lose. It really should've been Banjo vs Mario 64
What a ride, boys. Looking forward to Season 2!
listen peebs ... you guys need to have a structured setup for season 2 so each item gets equal time discussing its positives.. this was jirard badmouthing OoT for 65% of the video... hardly balanced... pass the word along, m'kay? LOL
Now play Banjo-Kazooie you heathen.
I love that you went against your brand and picked Super Mario 64! I also agree that Majora's Mask is the better 64 Zelda game.
debate the best Arthur games
My vote is for Majora's Mask. Then Banjo-Tooie (which didn't even make it to the bracket).
I kept expecting the moon to come crashing down, and then we'd be back at the first day and Majora's Mask would win. But alas, twas not meant to be.
Yeah, I figured the loser's bracket winner would then come back to face off against the winner, but I guess not.
Holy shit its lowart
Same :(
i don't know why people kept thinking that. they never said that would happen
i actually hate you. these comment sections suck cause of people like you who keep bringing majora back into the argument
Wow, the finale it's between Banjo-Kazooie and Majora's Mask. Who would have guessed
In another universe
What it should have been
Majoras mask is overrated
@@spacegoblin2114 oi
Space Goblin I'd love to hear why you think it's overrated.
For future "seasons" of Madness, may I make a suggestion:
instead of having the round table voting, what if you had other stream decks for each person, 2-3 of the buttons would be for voting, and then reveal the votes at the end.
I do enjoy the round table discussion, but taking turns on voting seems to add some peer pressure. As Austin put it before his vote, it becomes irrelevant after 3 votes in one direction. And instead of acting as the judge or mediator, Forrest could just be the host who also gets a vote.
Really good idea, not to mention they can just EXPLAIN THEMSELVES after the vote
I like this idea, the suspense would make it more entertaining.
I'm late to the party on this comment, I'm re-watching the series again, but I agree 100%; I think some of the votes were swayed by peer pressure and having initial anonymity would have gone a long way towards it feeling like a more natural debate.
"Just finding your way through a dungeon shouldnt be a puzzle"
Yes. Yes it should be. That's why it's a dungeon
Yeah I was scratching my head to that as well
I mean if Zelda was void of puzzles it'd be a bland boring franchise
Yeah I don’t know what they were going for there. That’s EVERY Legend Of Zelda game. I think there is a lot of personal bias towards 64 (except for Jared)
Before I watch this whole sucker here, I would like to say that, despite some annoyances with the arguments and choices, overall this was a good series. You guys really thought about things and came together in agreement of how you were going to tackle the question of best N64 game and brought your experiences to the table in a thoughtful manner. Even when it was obvious you had a strong bias you still listened to each other and also took from each other's arguments to bring new perspective to the table on the games you supported. It's great to see good discussion.
While I personally did not agree with everything said, most of my annoyances were just my own personal thoughts on the system and the influences of the games discussed. Now, I'm gonna watch this titanic matchup like the giddy Nintendo fan that I am!
Doug Carrel I think when I boils down to video games most people who still talk about games that are older than 10 years tend to be in one of two categories and I felt like the crew fell into both. You have the people who have a harder time taking off the nostalgia glasses and the people who are passionate about the games. In this case I felt like they kept slipping between these two categories and at times it made it somewhat hard to take their opinions without questioning “why is this being mentioned now and not earlier?” Or “why is this the definition of best 64 game now?”
Doug Carrel It's a great concept. I just think that debating what is the "best" game is going to honestly make it look like a shit show no matter how civil you make it. It's like debating politics to a certain degree, everyone has a "legitimate" (hehe sometimes) opinion, and most people would rather debate than argue.
Ocarina had the most cohesive world you could have in a game in 1998. Playing the game in 1998 was the equivalent of playing Skyrim in 2011. I would know I played them both at the time of their release. Both were magical games.
Rose tinted glasses are on if you think OOT in 98 was anything like Skryrim just 13 years later. Lol.
I enjoyed these, but in the future, please try to stick to a theme with voting. We jumped from multiplayer being the most important, impact to gaming, to now ignoring nostalgia. Almost every other episodes argument contradicted the next episodes argument. I know it's all in good fun. Just wanted to give my personal opinion on the show. Can't wait for the next season.
I agree! At one point they praise star fox because of how used the hardware and then when they pointed out how much sm64 was hindered by hardware then it wasn't a big deal. Is hardware important or not?!
@@w0197 using well everything the hardware let's you you is a big point I'm favor but being hindered by the hardware it's not the games fault so it should take pints from the game towards being good
I think when ranking games you need to evaluate how well each game accomplished what it set out to be and compare that. So is Mario Party a better multiplayer game than Mario 64 is a platformer etc.
And maybe get someone besides PBGamer. He never said anything I considered a rational argument unless he was parroting someone else.
I agree, consistency did seem to be a problem from one ep. to another. Art is the expression of values; We all have different things we value more highly in games over others given our taste and life experiences with them. Maybe attributing points for different reasons to an overall total could help keep things objective and consistent? Or arguing about something other than "Best 64 Game" which is vague. The 64 is so special to so many people because of subjective reasons saturated with nostalgia and personal memories, it's just fun to think about these games and talk about them, especially when others share the same, niche sentiments.
"I'm down with drugs" - PBG, 2018
Are u?
sealdog derp hell yeah
Woah, didn't expect Paper Mario to win! Glad Shane was able to convince everyone to bring it back to the finals!
The inspirational music that creeped in during Jirard's speech (9:55) about the launch title overshadowing the rest really put this over the top. I'd like to see more of this
Same here
"Just finding your way through the dungeon shouldn't be a puzzle." ......WHAT?! Yes, yes, it absolutely should. That's how a well designed dungeon should always be.
I think if you have puzzles and need to figure it out is important but if you get lost just cause you dont have a decent map or where you are in the area...
I completely agree. That comment was pretty asinine. Getting through the dungeon should always be a puzzle. That’s the whole point. Hating on the water temple is honestly such a meme. If you disregard having to open the menu to change boots and just view the dungeon on its own, it’s not the worst at all. I like it more than the forest temple and shadow temple, honestly.
I think what they meant wasn't completing the dungon shouldn't be a puzzle, its knowing where to go shouldn't be a puzzle.
Which is exactly why Majora's dungeons are waaay better than Ocarina's
To everyone thus far, I get what he meant; he meant the puzzles should be contained, not navigating it and still, no. Commenter number 2, I’m with you on the forest being worse, but it’s actually key number and placement that makes me hate Water. It’s a meme, but it was hated long before the internet blew up. And my main point is that dungeons (especially in Zelda) are trials. They’re meant to be a big puzzle, even down to navigating the map of it. It would be so boring and lazy to only have dedicated individual puzzle rooms in a straight-forward line. (Here come Temple of Time jokes)
"Boo Hoo I get lost in dungeons"
Uh... yeah. It's a *DUNGEON.* It's supposed to be labyrinthine. That's why the map and compass are important treasures.
this was acknowledged in the video dont get your titties in a twist
Boohoo OOT didn’t win
Uh... yeah. OPINIONS
Literally how are they confused about the cohesive world thing? In one game you’re jumping between separate areas that have nothing to do with each other and in the other you’re in one huge world with interconnected areas that loop around on each other
Its traditional "levels" (mario 64) vs overworld (Zelda). Yea I dont get why they couldnt understand that.
it's pretty easy to understand - i just think pbg and forrest didn't explain what they meant well at all, which is what led to the confusion.
It shouldn’t really require much explanation, the others got away with straight up falsehoods about the music without explaining it or backing it up whatsoever lol
Exactly my thoughts as well, I kept thinking from the very start you jump into paintings and Zelda you making your way through a world which is all connected!
For me, that’s what made SM64 a great game. Each level felt unique and interesting to play. Imagine all painting levels being the style of Peach’s Castle, would get very stale fast. The enemies, stars, coins, cannons, power-ups and objectives kept the game cohesive enough.
Ok that pissed me off Ocarina of time Only borrowed 3 tracks from a link to the past zeldas lullaby kakariko village and ganons castle Everything else was original
A few of these guys actually said that Mario had better music than Zelda. Like w t f they did not think this through. Should have played a few songs from each to wake them up. Either that or they are tone deaf
i knew it would be between these two games. Zelda gets my vote. But judging by the sound effects and arguments its gonna be Mario
Yup, and I’m happy about it
Lemme just say, at least I didn’t die in OoT because I couldn’t see the darn Chain Chomp stump!
Is that a complaint about Mario 64? Could I didn’t see all the tombstones I could randomly push in OOT
MP Studios
To be fair, the more important ones have flowers in front.
Now Dante’s grave digging would be an actually complaint, but it’s small.
And it’s not like the first boss was easy as heck when a common enemy killed me 5 times...
Ocarina of Time isn't as incredible as people say for the most part, but once you get to the end, with Ganon's Castle and these short dungeon segments, then climbing the tower, and as soon as you get to the top you realise this is where it gets real. The tension alone in the fight, TAKING AWAY TARGETING AFTER USING IT FOR THE WHOLE GAME (you realise how much you needed it), then that chase down the tower and you think it's all over, until suddenly it isn't. The combination of shock, and the music that plays, constructs one of the most incredible moments in a game, ever. The epic conclusion leaves a sense of majesty, and you finally can rest knowing that it's over.
Mario 64 = Better N64 game
Ocarina of time = Better game
Superman 64 = Post traumatic stress disorder
See they kept going back and forth on better n64 game to just better game. I dont even know what that means. If its a better game then its a better n64 game right? Jared voted for Ocarina in Ocarina vs Majoras but said Majoras was a better game...THEN VOTE FOR IT! Sheesh I hope they get more consistency with this series. It has potential.
Crutch & Wheels Gaming
they mean which game was best for the system it was made for compared to which game is the best game when it comes to gameplay, music, graphics, story,menu systems, etc
The meme is that something can be the "better n64 game" and not the better game. If you want to call something a more representative game for the system, then you can just look up a list of the most popular games on the system. There wouldn't need to be a fucking discussion if the topic was just what is the game which is the most emblematic of the system. The better game on the n64 is more worthy of actual discussion.
Super Mario 64 > Ocarina. Mario has yet to reach the level of gameplay variety and loving creativity of the 90s again. Everything has been at least a step down, and at worst a disgrace.
What do you mean best for the system though? I feel like they still went back and forth on what that meant.
See this is a way better explanation than anyone has given about the better "N64" game. I see what you mean. I still prefer Ocarina though but to each their own.
Loved the series and hearing your guys thoughts on games. So interesting.
Next bracket idea - Best Game to play with friends and vodka!
Poor Jirard.
Should have been Banjo, smh.
@@Viperspider1 it most certainly should have not have been fucking banjo. That shit aged poorly.
So here is the deal. Banjo is a better made platformer than Mario, but Jirard was preaching to the choir since a member of normal boots hasn't even played it. Hands down Banjo wins in my book.
I don't understand the layout of the show I guess. The definition of the N64 in my opinion is a multiplayer console. I don't/can't understand why so many 1 player games for a system that literally lacked the hardware to actually give that experience. Every other system during that time had much better 1 player games. I don't think this show has anything to do with "the best N64 game". If it did think about your friends that didn't have a N64 and had a PlayStation or Xbox those people never came to your house to play Mario 64 but they sure did line up to play goldeneye. I'm not saying goldeneye should win but that game and mario kart gave a 4 player experience that was stand alone for the N64 and unavailable on other consoles at the time. That is what made the 64 the 64.
@@natevoss9199
You say it was the multiplayer console but the best loved games on most lists are mostly single player experiences. Mario, Banjo, Banjo Again, Zelda, Zelda Again, D.K., etc. I know I almost never played N64 multiplayer games.
I just don't think it's true. At least not mainly true.
"just finding your way through the dungeon shouldn't be a puzzle" Mark Brown begs to differ
Arguments in this series have been pretty weak. I feel bad for Jirard
to be fair when defending Golden Eye and Banjo he didn't have almost any good argument, and couldn't properly defend Smash, I agree with his vote almost every chapter but no one in the group is really good at argument making
I don't agree at all, Jirard's arguments seemed the weakest of them all. he rambled on a lot about nothing, and brought up topics that didn't really relate.
Agreed but he has not made a good case yet for the games he likes, and I cannot recall if he has even made a specifically good observation either.
Jirad felt like the only one that came to the table with arguments prepared.... That might be the only reason I would feel bad for him. Otherwise he admitted he was biased.
Jirard sounds like that guy that is pissed off if you agree to everything he says
These guys underestimated Ocarina of Time big time.
For real bro I wouldn't even need to have a debate to know that Zelda is a much better experience than Mario
They didn't even just underestimate Ocarina of time they down right disrespected it.
Let's not talk about mario 64s horrible camera angles. Like at all. But over glorify bomb bomb battlefield.
@@shesaidbaby much better? Maybe ur an open world rpg guy I guess
@@col7004 Yeah kind of. Ocarina of time is better than Mario 64 for the following reasons: It has a large scale story with hours of dialogue. A hundred different people to talk to in the world. Tons of progression in the form of items, abilities, weapons, outfits, songs, horse riding and growing older as adult Link. Mario feels the same whether you played for 10 minutes or 100 hours. He doesn't really gain anything new. Zelda has deeper fighting and actual combat. It has some platforming but obv Mario is better here. Link looks dope, is anime-eske & Mario is a red midget plumber which is not as dope. There are shops and towns in Zelda OOT. It has time travel. You can actually spend the rupees you collect. It has a day night cycle. You can teleport and fast travel. It has better boss battles, a larger variety of enemies and plenty of unique ways to take down enemies rather than just button smash attack or jump on their head. Zelda has better cut scenes and cinematics. Zelda has better puzzles. Zelda has better music, you could argue Mario's is better in ways but Zelda kind of revolves around music and songs that affect gameplay so i'm going to give it to Zelda. Mario is really great for what it is but Zelda is better imo.
The reasons they are saying ocarina of time was bad (not knowing what to do in dungeons after playing it again) is a positive to me. I want to feel like I havent played a game upon replaying it. Jirard contradicts himself saying he knows how to solve the puzzles in Zelda but in the dungeons forgets where to go. The dungeons area puzzle in themselves. Also, basically Mario 64 has traditional levels where as Zelda is its own one world. I understand what PBG was saying. I actually like Sunshine more than 64. Ocarina def is the best out of these two though. Jared asks what does Ocarina of time do better than Mario 64 is a little baited and biased. I think Ocarina does everything better. I would normally upvote this video even though I disagree with the choice but the fact that this whole series everyone was so hypocritical I cant upvote it. PS I didnt downvote either.
mario is the same way though in regards of replaying it. yeah it being a 3d platformer you can figure out new faster ways to get to a star but for the most part its just "oh that star. yeah lets just do this and bam got it...next one" i have played both games very recently and even though mario is still very very fun ocarina felt way better when progression happened
Exactly. There would be no point replaying Zelda games if you always knew where to go and what to do after playing it once.
I had a similar thought -- not sure what to do next even though I've played that dungeon multiple times over the years, makes the experience "new" again. That's more fun for me and more replayable. I'm not a speedrunner so beating a level faster isn't my personal goal.
My love for Mario 64 is definitely not just nostalgia. I think it's just masterful for its time and is still fun today.
I feel like they really need to stop using the argument "Which game is more important to gaming" since it really hinders their choices. They basically all unanimously agreed that Majors's Mask was the better game over Ocarina but gave it to Ocarina because it was more influential? Why should that give a game the edge? It became the building block that drove the series to become stale and need the change that is Breath Of The Wild. Mario 64 brought 3D platforming to Gaming but that was about it. By that previous logic, Banjo Kazooie should be in the finals as its format is continued to be used today and I would argue has more in common with Mario Odyssey than Mario 64 does. Basically just judge a game by which was most fun and whether you would play it again. Also listen to Jirard more lol
Luke T. I disagree vehemently. For instance, God of War popularized quick time events which is a universally shit upon concept. God of war is not a bad game, but quick time events being made through it does not make it better just because GoW had “influence”
They did not decide on Ocarina because it was more influential. They decided on Ocarina because, for a brand new player, it is way more accessible and easier to understand than Majora's Mask. I would never recommend Majora's Mask as somebody's first 3D Zelda. But I would recommend Ocarina in that place any day.
Now to clarify, I too love Majora's Mask more than Ocarina. But it took time for that opinion to come about because it took me significantly longer to beat Majora than it did Ocarina. The first part of Majora is daunting and alienating to brand new players, and I have firsthand experience with that. Ocarina doesn't have this issue. From the beginning of the game it explains what is going on and you are learning everything at your own pace in the Kokiri Forest. In Majora, you feel like you have no time to learn at your own pace because the face of the apocalypse is literally staring down at you.
I'm of the opinion that originality is a little bit overrated. If something is fun, then it's fun; no matter how many times it's been used. Same for music, same for story elements.
I for one do not feel, in any form or fashion, that the Zelda series before BotW had become stale. I judged each of them on their own merits, and they each had high and low points about them. Same is true about BotW. In fact, all in all, I like BothW less than many of the previous Zelda titles.
The time when Furst said that no other platformer rivaled mario64 until mario Odyssey was so sad. Banjo kazooie is at least as good and better in a lot of areas :(
Nathan-DTS I don't like bringing up this argument either. But I agree. Fun is substantially what helps get new players into games. BUT games are also merited by their art, music, story, and game design. Games are art (yeah I said it) and appreciating the factors of what a game does in narrative, tone, presentation, and mechanics should be taken into consideration.
I think what they were trying to get at, about the "Cohesive World" bit, is that in Mario 64 you basically go to disjointed levels that aren't connected at all, but in Ocarina of Time, everywhere has a clear connection. You can look in a direction and be like "Okay it's that way to Lake Hylia" and turn to the left and say "But if I go that way I'm heading to Kokiri Forest".
Majora's mask is still the best, change my mind
Preach
The Flaming Assassin Ah I see you are a man of taste as well
The Flaming Assassin what happened to the losers bracket?
The Flaming Assassin you can be an invisible, metal man in Mario.
Done😅
indeed
I honestly don't understand why people complain about the Water Temple. It was the only Ocarina dungeon I never had too much difficulty with
Noah Lamberty people just get thrown off by it but it’s a really fun game if just know what you are doing once you figure it out the game is a breeze with a great story
Alek Toledo Having to have already played through the game once to have any fun is bad game design
People seem to forget there is a map that tells you what rooms you haven't been in and any treasure chests you missed :P
Because you have to keep pausing to take the fucking boots on and off. Its annoying as shit.
Its annoying to change boots every 30seconds, but having it as a C item in the 3DS version completely fixes the temple
Mario 64 impacted gaming as whole more, but Ocarina of Time impacted me as a person more and that’s why I’d choose Ocarina because it is much more of a personal journey than Mario 64. Although it should have been Majora in the fight lol.
Nah I would say Zelda impacted games more. Zelda= God of War, Dark souls, Horizon Zero Dawn. Mario=Jak and Daxter and Crash Bandicoot.. Obviously Zelda had a much bigger impact with the rpg elements, progression, tools, weapons, story. Mario is just a big collectathon, you get stars.. compared to Zelda which is a massive epic adventure with time travel.
I was expecting a multiplayer game on the finals, considering you guys thought it was a cornerstone of the N64.
Honestly, while I am upset by the verdict, I do think a lot of the arguments were bad arguments. So many of them were simply differences between the two. Mario may be a joy start to finish, but Zelda was never trying to be that. The games are paced differently. Zelda is more about immersing yourself in the world, and you go through a lot of different emotions. I mean, it would be pretty bad if when Link left the forest and Saria caught to say her tearful good bye you were thinking about how much fun you're having. But its a sad moment, and it does it well. Hyrule field may be big and empty, but it was a breath of fresh air after going into the depth of a dark dungeon. It was a natural break in between moments. And you know, Peach's Castle didn't really have a lot going for it either. Of course you're going to have an easier time getting your bearings Mario, all the levels were big and open with obvious landmarks. Whereas a Zelda dungeon is suppose to be a little more difficult to navigate, that's why there's always a map and compass to find as rewards for exploration. You are suppose to get lost, part of the satisfaction is finding your way through. And how was Mario more original than Zelda? You went through a bunch of themed worlds, jumping and stomping on goombas, trying to rescue Peach from Bowser. It's laid out differently, but all the things Ocarina of Time gets flack for having borrowed are very shallow, surface level similarities. On the surface, Mario 64 is just as bad. I'd argue Ocarina had more new stuff than Mario. Music? Ocarina used 3 or 4 A Link to the Past songs. It still had lots of new ones. And just the Ocarina songs themselves were short, doesn't mean they're not songs. Still full melodies. Neither of these games were trying to be completely original in that regard though, because the transition into 3D was more important. Also, both made the transition really well, but there's one really important factor they didn't mention: the camera. One is known for how bad it was, the other is hailed as being revolutionary and setting a new industry standard.
The whole thing felt really one sided, like they needed to justify picking Super Mario 64. And I do think at least part of that was because Ocarina of Time is so often at the tops of so many "best of" lists.
Matthordika It seemed like all of the points they made against OoT that made Mario "better" were all things that OoT did great... For the style of game it was trying to be. It seemed like for this episode, they picked a style of game they wanted to win (something that has a lot of fun segments) and just went with it. Instead of comparing the games on what they did best in each of their respective genres. But I think their thought process was that the more "fun" game encapsulates the N64 more? Idk. I didn't really agree with any of the points they made.
I agree. They didn't take the time to really talk about the merits of Ocarina of Time. Ocarina of Time broke barriers and did something completely new where as Super Mario 64 was just a 3D platformer. How revolutionary is it to jump from one spot to another?
Matthordika: well said sir. They focused on what is "fun" way too much, the fun factor depends on how a game is made, for example dark souls, is it "fun?" hell no! is it a great game? you betcha. What im trying to say is a game should be judged on the experience not just how fun it is.
DejaVoodooDoll But sure the same could be said with puzzles and exploration. Struggle with it? Then get good. Fun is subjective, but it’s still important to realise that Ocarina of Time is a different kind of fun.
'Whereas a Zelda dungeon is suppose to be a little more difficult to navigate, that's why there's always a map and compass to find as rewards for exploration. You are suppose to get lost, part of the satisfaction is finding your way through.'
Funnily enough, it only takes a few randomizers in order to remember wherer each and every gold skulltula, chest, and room is. They say it's hard to remember (or at least imply so), but the dungeons don't get any less fun even if you know where everything is and how to get it. That's the major pro of a 3D game: there's more than one way to go at a problem, and all of them are right.
Not the two I would have wanted in the finals, but the two I expected.
Executer 66
Part of me feels like they picked SM64 to be “different”, but then WTF DID YOU EVEN HAVE SM64 VS OOT IN THE FIRST PLACE!?!?
This is the inverse of
“A surprise to be sure, but a welcome one”
Leighton Petty
Tbh, I don’t know if I’ve ever been more triggered by any game vs in my life...
And I wish they would’ve said they’re going with what’s objectively better or try to shake things up, but no: they just inconsistent.
"Reuses ALttP soundtrack"
Apparently, paying tribute to a few tracks from a previous game in a series equates to completely reusing the entire soundtrack.
???????????????
I'm curious if anyone from normal ever ever took note of this or if they're MapPat-ing the situation and ignoring something that isn't that big a deal to begin with but still acting like they're right...
Il never forget popping in Mario 64 Christmas Day 1996. It blew my little 7yo mind. Then again so did OoT when thay came out. I can't choose lol.
I am still outraged that Rogue Squadron wasn't even in the competition
Oot is the game i wanted to win, its more satisfying its more cohesive, and at the end im more happy and i feel more rewarded. I feel like the hero of time. Not too say mario 64 Is a bad game, but i just like oot better
I actually expected OoT to win. Just like you did xD
The thing is that Mario represents the system better. They designed to be a 3D game, not a Mario game. Ocarina of Time was designed to be a Zelda.
This may be off topic but thank you for linking the bg music in the description, guys! I've really been digging it.
Also, this was great fun and I really enjoy the debate format!! Looking forward to another round!! Maybe with more consoles in the future? We didn't have Nintendo in my country until the Wii, so these arguments are fascinating to me as a neutral party. I'd love to hear about the SNES for instance (If possible considering the insane amount of games on it)
Do you guys hear somebody playing Smash Bros. somewhere when you’re watching the video?
Water Temple is a great dungeon and is one of the reasons Ocarina of Time does 3D so well. The whole dungeon should be a puzzle, and water temple makes you think about the entire structure as one giant puzzle. There are more dungeons that make you puzzle out the whole dungeon rather than just going from room to room to solve individual bite sized puzzles. The music is not all borrowed either, tracks like Hyrule Field, Gerudo Valley, and Lost Woods are still considered some of the best music in Zelda. While part of Ganondorf's fight may be borrowed, you completely overlooked every other boss in the game. There are other similarities but each boss had to be rethought of in a 3D space, you're never fighting the exact same boss from ALTTP. Mario's ending has tricky platforming and a final bowser fight, while Ocarina of Time has you storm Hyrule Castle, which has been the whole goal since you became adult, and climb all the way up Ganon's tower, fighting several of the hardest enemies of the game as the organ music of Ganon's theme becomes increasingly louder. Leading up to Ganondorf who has taunted and toyed with you, to finally have enough skill and power to face off with him. Theres the whole collapse sequence and the final form Ganon fight as well, this is far better than anything that could have been achieved in A Link to the Past. Ocarina of Time takes a lot of elements from the STORY of ALTTP, but the gameplay is entirely different. Even so, Ocarina of time has more fleshed out characters and improves on everything ALTTP does. Mario can win if that's the collective opinion, I've never played it so I can't really say you're wrong. But a lot of points against Ocarina were oversimplified or overlooking several things. I feel there was no argument for Ocarina of Time during this one.
Oh hey there’s that nonsense false argument again that most of Ocarina Of Time’s music came from A Link To The Past lol
All 3 songs from OOT that came from ALTTP, the same number of songs in MARIO 64 total just about vs the entire 18739283 original compositions in OOT
Hell I prefer Mario 64 as a game but that is such a bullshit argument it’s unreal
I agree, though I feel you're being a little harsh on SM64's soundtrack. Off the top of my head, I'm gonna try to name the reused ALTTP songs in OOT: 1. Kakariko Village; 2. Ganon's Theme (but they expanded on it) 3. Zelda's Lullaby (also expanded to a degree). That's all I can think of, so you're right.
Grumpoo Da Zumbie I’m talking main pieces of music. In Mario 64 you have the Game Selection, Peaches Castle, Dire Dire Docks, Tick Tock Clock, Bob Omb Battlefield, Hazy Maze Cave, Lethal Lava Land, Bowser and Bowser stages. Then obvi the end credits and cap tunes. Quite a few yeah, but Ocarina of Time not only has way more, but of the 3 most iconic songs from Mario64 - Bob Omb Battlefield, Peaches Castle and Dire Dire Docks, that’s about how many songs were reused in OOT from Alttp
Luigi 64DD main thing being the “point” they used somehow to OOT’s detriment is that OOT is just fuuuull of music from ALTTP when in reality it’s as many songs reused as Mario 64 has that anyone really ever talks about - Bob Omb Battlefield, Dire Dire Docks and Peaches Castle. Yeah there’s more songs but who talks about them compared to those three? As compared to Ocarina having its title theme, Lost Woods, Song of Storms, all the dungeon themes (particularly the Forest Temple), Ganon’s Boss fight, the end credits, Kokiri Village, Goron City, Lon Lon Ranch, Hyrule Field - all these extremely iconic songs
The ratio is way different than they’re putting it lol
Lol yeah, i don't get it, not even the main zelda theme returns in OoT (while it does in MM) but the original mario theme do returns in the menu music of mario 64.
Overall music i think is a point against mario 64, since it reuses so much of the tracks multiple times, like the dire dire docks theme or the rainbow cruise/ minigame/ tick tock clock theme. While Ocarina of time has a varied soundtrack throughout most of the game
Diego G exactly, Mario 64 has a handful of songs that are used throughout the whole game while OOT has different music for almost every area even above I forgot about Zora’s Domain and Gerudo Valley too. In terms of music I’d go so far as to say OOT is objectively faaaaar more iconic on a much larger scale than Mario 64 and it honestly annoys the hell out of me for that straight up falsehood to be all it takes for them to dismiss it’s music.
I think Ocarina of Time should have won since everything in that game that you do has a purpose. It has a better adventure which is what they used as a determining factor for what a good N64 game is. I personally think that Zelda translated better into 3D because it took everything that worked in Link Between Worlds and put it in a 3D environment. Although Mario did expand on what makes a good platformer, it is still a much different game from its predecessors. In Mario 64 the worlds you are in have no purpose but to get stars. Therefore, there is no reason that Mario needs to be in one place opposed to another. In Zelda everything has a purpose, and you know why you are completing each dungeon. When Gannon is finally defeated you get a true sense of fulfillment like you finished a long journey.
Ramblings aside I loved this series. I can’t wait for more!
Jonny Brown actually they used fun as a determining factor not adventure. Thank you for not just bashing Mario for the sake of bashing it though
*Link To The Past
Nah
"everything you do has a purpose"
Minus every skulltula after 50
I do agree with you, although it really should have been Majora's Mask
Literally everyone is not even talking about Gameplay the only things M64 was good at was Gameplay and Music but these things were just that good M64 topped Ocarina of Time
"Ocarina of time has boring parts while Mario 64 does not" wrong, the difference is that in Mario 64 you can skip those boring parts, you can focus on getting all the stars in bob omb battlefield and only 1 or 2 in haze maze cave or tick tock clock or any other level you don't like and still finish the game, but it's not like you can skip the water temple (which isn't even that hard, get over it) in ocarina, Mario 64 does that Jared says Sonic Adventure 2 does to you, it makes you focus on the good parts you enjoy and avoid the ones you don't like, but Zelda, being a more linear story driven adventure can not afford that
It feels like I've been waiting years for this video, so glad they brought back normal boots in such a great way😄
That’s why I love Breath of the Wild so much, you never get stuck in it
18:04 “what’s something that zelda does better than Mario 64?”
Everyone choked?
-Combat
-Traveling
-Variety in items
-Narrative
-Time Travel lol
Easy question and for being gentlemen who dedicate their lives to gaming, surprised they stayed quiet lol
"Just finding your way through the dungeon shouldn't be a puzzle"
Ummmm what? That's what makes the dungeons so much more interesting
Just started highschool and been watching 2 a these a week every week so far really helps me get through it and have Soemthing to look forward too loved this keep up the good work boyos
Banjo Kazooie did Super Mario 64 better. Mario came off like a demo of what you can do on the 64. Then Banjo said "Yeah yeah, got it" and then made a funner more fantastic adventure with magical transformations, characters with actual personalities, memorable sounds, etc.
“I like it when the game plays itself for me, and I just sit and watch. It’s pretty fun.”
I was literally playing Football Manager when he said that...
hahaha this is a joke Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time is the greatest game of all time m64 is a good game but could never hold a candle to Ocarina of Time
You think
I Agree 100%.
@@GA-od1fv I played both so I don't need to think I know
@@vernjoshuatimothy7879 you can say that oot is better but saying mario 64 does not hold a candle to oot is a little too much
@@GA-od1fv ok fair point mate both are great in they on rights ....
As someone who played both Mario 64 and Ocarina of Time recently (no nostalgia from me), OOT was so much better and aged way better. Zelda has amazing puzzles and variety of gameplay with many new tools. So the Zelda game has so much to offer. Also music is definitely more memorable with Zelda OOT. Mario 64 was great for 1996 but not for today as many things are outdated gameplay wise. I would score OOT 9/10 and Mario 64 7/10
I love this series! You guys should do this series again with the Gamecube or the GameBoy Advanced!
If they do a Gameboy Advanced one and Golden Sun isn't in it, it won't be worth watching lol
Wow never realized ocarina of time IS just basically a link to the past but in 3D
That's crazy, it turned around the entire argument for me
3:52 "Just finding your way through the dungeons shouldn't be a puzzle" - Is there a new definition of dungeon I'm not aware of?
Well, I was wrong about the winner, to my pleasure. I reluctantly thought the obvious would win, but alas, I was wrong. This has put a smile on my face and I'm glad that the usual winner didn't win this time.
I hear what you're saying about Mario 64's music being better than Ocarina of Time's, but consider:
the Spirit Temple's theme.
Thanks have a day
Or the Forest Temple theme
"It's almost like that argument was bullshit" Shane continues to be my hero
Summary of this video and entire season:
"Ocarina of Time always wins... let's UNANIMOUSLY vote against it!"
Seems fair and well-thought out.... lol
I’m just here for the P5 soundtrack in the background
Zelda didn't get a fair shake here. I liked the series but this was a pretty frustrating episode. The negative arguments for Zelda kinda stole the narrative without good counter points. Even if they were valid (which they werent) it made this rather uninteresting.
Regarding 3D space and orientation or confusion complaint: a 3D platformer is obviously going to work different than a close-knit 3D adventure game with hand-to-hand combat. The zoomed out camera and wild and colorful worlds are easy benefits to orientation in Mario. However, Mario was also like the first big 3D game... at all. Zelda took the queues and improved on them. Z target got it's complaints in these episodes, but it was still excellent and made combat possible. The complaint about no jumping in Zelda? Think about the games that improved on these formulas. Until BOTW a bunch of great Zelda games continued to avoid jumping. It's easy to argue that while Zelda's Z targeting bugs were smoothed out in future games the approach stayed very much the same for a long time. Just like 3D changed the formula for platforming, it became a part of adventuring and puzzle solving. Aiming with a hookshot and arrows to reach new solutions. Climbing, falling, hovering, and swmiming are important too. Now Mario has targeting for Cappy.
The music argument was crap as many others have pointed out. Music was a huge part of the quest in OoT. I think the Zelda music was also more of a technical accomplishment due to the limitation of the Ocarina, and became subsequently iconic and special. OoT completely solidified the importance of music in the series. LttP didn't do that.
And how was OoT's contiguous world approach used as a knock against it? The game was originally designed as a hub world concept until they struggled to improve it and achieved a mostly cohesive world to aid in the adventure asthetic. Owl flies you around and plays the game for you? OoT progresses on a continuing theme of making the world larger and more open. Tons of Zelda games offer quick transportation to allow a large world to explore that can also be navigated quickly to prevent frustration. BOTW has this in spades. Platformers don't have to have hub worlds - even Odyssey has these but worlds are getting larger and more immersive. Mario's level dynamics were a technical limitation that OoT did a better job of overcoming.
Rose-colored glasses? Howe was this even used as an argument against OoT? OoT cam after Mario, the *first* game on the system. If OoT wowed people so much to keep it listed as "greatest of all time" for so long, how does that argument sway anyone toward Mario?
Not knocking Mario. Unfortunately you ran out of time to actually mention the positives of OoT. Where is the story and the characters? The same things that were well liked about Majora's Mask over Banjo? Where is the legitimate music discussion? How about the accomplishment of moving toward a more open world? I don't think this episode really made any effort to capture the reasons why OoT has been so universally loved. When you live with something at the top for so long, maybe it's easier to see the arguments tearing it down then to remember the reasons that it got put there in the first place.
jason no idea who you are but i love you all the same kind stranger, lol.. My sentiments exactly
i noticed jirard was still upset about banjo so he refused to let anything positive about OoT float in the air before rushing to pop the bubble. pro jared switches his opinions so often in this series , which is ironic considering he knocked the water temple for something similar , lol.
i thought the same about the "rose tinted glasses" thing. WHY are they assuming the listmakers never replayed their FAVOURITE GAME EVER!?
i used to love projared and i never cared much for jirard(seems nice tho) but this series soured my opinion of them both. that seems petty i guess but they were both extremely unfair... i also love pbg to death but man is he bad at making points, lol
I'll knock Mario:
The only reason it won, in the end, was that it has a fun factor to it. Except it isn't fun. Platformers live and die on one mechanic: jumping to traverse a world. Is that really fun? Moving and pressing one button over and over and over to do the same action? Both N64 Zeldas had a tonne more to do in every game. There was movement, puzzle solving, combat, and even some platforming here and there. Mario's "puzzles" were literally just "go to this place, do this one thing, get star."
Not to mention that SM64 (and every 3D Mario until Odyssey) kicks you out of the level when you get a star, so then you have to re-enter the level. It just always felt like such a waste of time, even as a kid.
Also, OoT has a lot better glitches to be used in the game, too. Infinite sword glitch is amazing, and bomb hovering will never not be fun.
@@exiled5160 agree completely about jirard. every good thing that was said about oot left him with a confused face and a rebuttal of "yeah, but mario...." this was a really tough episode to watch, even though (or maybe because) the end result was telegraphed from the beginning.
I’m sorry you’re disappointed, but if you want to see Zelda win, go to literally any other top N64 games list. Everyone thinks OoT is the best. I was kinda glad to see something else come out on top!
I agree, myself, on the rose tinted glasses. But that's also unfair as far as M64 goes considering it was the 64's launch title.
Here's the thing: not everyone loved the brand new 3D aspect of Mario just as much as not everyone liking the dungeon aspects of a 3D Zelda game.
In all honesty, these guys could be gave a much better overview of these two games as far as aesthetic and mechanics and music.
Really been loving the background music in this series. I see those Home songs being played here and there.
I can't believe majora's mask just came out of nowhere and won!
Thanks to how the tournament bracket layout went all I want to see now is "The Legend of Zelda 007: Ocarina of Time."
They should really bring jared back and do more of these. The whole tournament was so much fun!
0:27 Zelda Ocarina of Time 007
This got soooooo intense! Your guys commentary made me feel like I was there! Almost verbally agreeing and disagreeing with y’all! Cant WAIT for Season 2! Such an intense journey! 😂
I saw this coming when they started talking.
I've been loving this series and I can't wait for more madness! Btw is that a remix of Beneath the Mask from P5 I hear?? ;)
Conket bad fur day vs banjo kazooie
21:24 SUMMONING SALT!! Is that you?!
"The Mario levels are better because you can remember them, and that makes it better than Zelda because when you replay a dungeon not everything is obvious."
Literally a few minutes later:
"Mario is better because Zelda's puzzles are too easy to remember and everything is too obvious."
...uh.
It's almost as if the entire video feels like a hit piece on Ocarina because it tops the best of lists even two decades later. Their arguments did not feel completely logical and some were flat out wrong.
Yeah this was a really embarrassing final video for them. I'd suggest they replay both games and then try again.
Yeah, Jirard even straight up admitted he didn't want Ocarina to win because it always wins. Which, I love Jirard, but that feels like a really cheap reason to throw the vote. I felt like they did it dirty. I would have been fine with them giving it to Mario if they'd made a strong argument for it, but they discounted all of Zelda's strong points, distorted facts about how much it borrowed from its predecessor (music was way exaggerated), and then did straight up contradictions like above. It felt a little disingenuous.
It's their show, of course, but I hope next time they decide from the start what categories they're going to judge games on and vote accordingly. Like, it could be something like, Gameplay, Story, Fun, Visuals, Music, Multiplayer, Replayability, Datedness, Relationship with the system it's on, Originality, Historical significance, Personal overall preference. That's a lot of categories, but those are all arguments they've used, and I feel some have been unfairly emphasized. They could assign each category a maximum number of points to help weight things (e.g. gameplay should have more weight in the final vote than whether a game has multiplayer). They could debate each category and then give each game zero to max points. They could also give both the same points if they feel it's too close to call. Then make a final vote from there. This is a much more clinical approach, I know, but it'd help keep them from sticking on minor points, at least. They could still keep it fun.
Another way could be to just make each category win/lose/draw, but while this keeps things more fun, it throws out weighting. Still, a bit of organization would be nice, especially to prevent situations like this where a vote feels unjustified.
I also think final votes should be secret/written down and done at the same time. They can still reveal the votes with explanation as a round table, but secret voting avoids peer pressure/spite votes.
E.g. If someone is fourth in a three-way vote (not naming names, but this should sound familiar, lol), and the other three have voted A, A, B. They were going to vote C, but the best C can do is 2-1-2, a tie. So they vote B out of spite because they don't want A to win, hoping Forrest will also vote B so they win. But they would have really voted C in a secret vote, and didn't really think B should win. That isn't what I'd consider a fair vote.
HolyShtWrestling “Their arguments did not feel completely logical”
Yeah it’s almost as if this is just an engaging conversation between friends and does not follow “logic” because that’s not how human beings function. You want “logical”? You want “boring.”
I get the impression that Projared had already made his decision before the video, and wouldn't let anything change his mind.
I wish so bad that it was Banjo vs Mario in the finals. I honestly think that Banjo is a better game than Mario.
Hahn95 both are great but for me the replay ability of banjo is much better than sm64. I will admit I did play banjo much more than mario and like mentioned in the video I could easily beat the whole game in 4-5 hours and know exactly what to do to obtain the 10 jiggys, But whenever i play sm64, quite a few times I end up looking on youtube on how to complete tasks for stars. But I’m sure if I played it more I could memorise each level as well as banjo kazooie. Also I really like how in sm64 you can skip levels (mentioned in the video). This makes the game more enjoyable when you don’t have to play the shit levels like jolly rogers bay.
I have really enjoyed these. Basically you have brought all my favourite content creators together to discuss something we all love. I want to see more of this. To make it even better, I would have more structure around the argumentation. Now it just jumps from one argument to another and good ideas and discussions are not finished. Thank you though, you are awesome^^
Best Gamecube games next (it's propably PS1 but still)
This is one tight competition, although I saw it coming since the first episode of this series. If I had to pick, it's definitely Mario 64 for me.
same
It's My birthday! I'm voting Ocarina, because Young Link is my main in Smash.
Normally I'd say I'm a Young Link main but considering the Mii's are getting better designs and shit I gotta go with Mii Myself and I
Happy birthday my dude
And thus, the battle of Mario vs. Zelda continues.
Whenever I've had a really shit day, ocarina of Time is the place where I go
I would like to express my love for this series. I didn't agree with every point along the way, nor do I think that every single deciding factor actually mattered, but I liked the flow of conversation, there were definitely still some good points raised, and I respect each of you guys as individuals and game commentators. I sincerely look forward to more Madness!
Ocarina of Time was an emotional story. When I first played it I felt things about Saria, Ruto, Darunia, Malon, and pretty much every character. The characters were well developed within a dramatic story of their own outside of the main quest line.
I was probably like 10 when I first played it and immediately fell in love with Saria because she is your ONLY friend as a child. There's so much depth in Ocarina of Time that even later games couldn't emulate.
Shout out to the music choices throughout this series. Great job.
Body harvest is the winner
Why exactly should it be easy to navigate a dungeon? I expect to get lost. That's why OOT has a map.
I feel like Ocarina would've been waaaayyyy cooler if there was an Ocarina song you could play that would stop time or something
UltraGamer it'd just be cool is all I'm saying
Maybe it could be used Roget in some extra hits on a boss or avoid an enemy coming at you. Or even getting behind an enemy that's defending so you could wait less time to defeat it.
Losing yourself in Zelda dungeons is part of the challenge! Zelda, at its best, is a game about navigation. Maps and compasses are tools to help, but navigating the space successfully is an intentional part of the challenge, and now a flaw.
For me its ocarina of time. I think that to this day is one of the best story driven games, simply because i think it achieved a perfect balance between story and gameplay.
The game doesn't take the controller away from you more than is necessary, but it also doesn't let you go for too much time, so that you don't you loose interest in the story. You don't have to sit through endless tutorials, hours of dialogue and exposition, but the story is still interesting to the point that i can play the game 20 times and not skip the dialogue, or not all of it.
That, i think, is the underlined reason why everyone keeps coming back to this game, why it is probably the most replayable zelda game and why so many people keep considering it the best game of all time.
Enjoyed this tournament a lot, learned a bit and had some major laughs. Keep it up :)
Ocarina vs. Mario64??
who would of thought?
*everyone* would've thought
Kids101 lol NA grammar
that's not how I actually write, it was just so it would fit the strutur- you know what, never mind.
When I started this video I instantly said 'Super Mario 64' because while Ocarina of Time is spectacular I can ALWAYS think back to being a lass and playing Mario 64 for the first time and how not a lot of things could give me the same feeling that Mario 64 did. I felt like I was transported to a whole new world, even the fact that in the level before the castle the sound was so minimal it really felt like it was setting some kind of scene and I was blown away by that. I think I had lost my save file too and went back to try to beat it again and just got that same feeling being back there at the beginning. It really holds a place in my heart as one of those memorable experiences where I knew where I was but I ignored all my surroundings cause the game had captured me that strongly.
It feels like every time they brought up a valid point in Zeldas favor they immediately throw it aside and say "bt that's not what makes A GOOD N64 GAME"
This Isgiving me flashbacks to Egoraptors hit piece in sequelitis where he basically whines about the good old days of limitations for a whole video. Also, straight up saying "ocarina of time always wins so I'm gonna vote against it" is the most hipster bullshit contrarian asshole excuse ever. Dont give me the "rose tinted glasses" thing because you're doing the exact same thing with Mario 64. I'm not saying Mario 64 couldn't have won either valid arguments, but this feels like they handicapped Ocarina if Time just so they could have a different outcome than everyone else
Where do I find more videos with Shane? He consistently had the best opinions and insights throughout.
Great series. Buuuut
The reason I agreed with Jirard so much is because this was a chance to make such an interesting bracket but of course Majoras won the losers round and of course it came down to OoT and Mario 64 and OF COURSE Mario 64 won. Hopefully the next one is more interesting and subjective... but again overall the personalities made it worth the watch and I’m excited for more.
Really not a lot of consistency to the arguments throughout this series. Still, it was SUPER fun to watch. Very much looking forward to more.
To be fair, Mario 64’s castle is just as boring as Hyrule felid. What makes it fun is the anticipation of what world you’ll find next. also, it’s more fun to explore a hub as Mario than Link.
I’d say Mario 64 is a game I can “beat” over and over again. It’s just fun. I can play-through and 100% that first set of worlds in Mario 64 over and over, and I love being able to skip wet dry world if I want. There’s also less of a motivation to 100% the game. 80 star, and I’m good. I usually stop around 60, then start a new file months later, but still. You get what I mean.
Ocarina of Time on the other hand, I play through it at least once a year, but I hardly ever beat it. I tend to stop right before or after the water temple. I’ll leave it, come back many months later, and depending on if I feel like going through the first 3 dungeons or not, will influence me to either finish my old file, or start a new one. I do like Ocarina of Time more though. Mario 64 is just easier to replay.
Think of it like this, I LOVE snicker and molten chocolate lava cakes. But let’s be real, which one am I probably gonna eat more often?
Well, call Mario 64 a snickers, because I’m not me when I haven’t played it in a while.
I'm the opposite - I've played SM64 once and played the DS remake once (and not sure I even bothered to complete it) and never felt the urge to go back to it. Ocarina, I've played 25-30 times on N64 and a few times in various remakes.
First point: size, though. How much time do you spend running around Hyrule field vs. navigating the castle?
How many times do you get bumped back to the castle compared to how many times you need to cross Hyrule Field?
rmsgrey how many seconds does it take to jump back in the painting apposed to how many minutes it takes to navigate through Hyrule field
I’m seeing a lot of “how long does it take to. Navigate Hyrule Field vs jumping back in the painting”
If your jumping back in the painting, I’m assuming you died, and are trying again. If that’s the case, Ocarina of Time is literally the same. You die, get a Game Over, and hit YES to play again. If you died in the Forest Temple for example, you start in the Temple.
If you die in anyplace actually, you start back in said temple/dungeon/grotto.
Hyrule field FEELS more ridiculous only because as children, we died, quit, and came back the next day, thus spawning in the Temple of Time, Links house, or the dungeon.
Mario 64, you always spawn outside. In the end, both are kind of invalid points. When taking both into consideration, and depending on the situation, neither is much faster than the other.
Love these, they are the highlight of my days. Pls do an snes one! ( even tho Jared will be biased towards ff6