An extremely difficult repair, successfully negotiated. I have one of these, 644, converted to DCC and it is an extremely good slow runner despite the Airfix motor. So is my Airfix 4F and also Airfix Royal Scot. My 2P, which I think is 2099C, has pickups as standard on the bogie wheels, unlike this model, , which obviously helps over points and so on.. It will need a service soon and so your video is a perfect example of how to take apart and service the motor. Very helpful.
Replying to myself! I obviously forgot to say that with the bogie wheel pickups the 2099C should not need a stay alive because it picks up from 4 wheels rather than just the two.
Nice job, Bill! The layout is slowly turning from a vision into reality. Scenic work is coming on a treat. My friend is building a DCC layout - I am assisting in various ways - but despite all the literal bells and whistles, I still think DC has still got a lot to be said for it. DCC seems almost complex for complexities sake! Best wishes from Wirral
😮 great repair work as usual, and I have also seen your progress with the layout 😊. Like the road coming out under the railway bridge, and the petrol station looks very nice.
Yet another great rescue vid.🤓👍 Bought you a coffee to help relieve the stress of this one. Nice to see Hornby stocking older spares & not charging the Earth for them. The layout's looking very nice indeed & i like the tip to improve non electro frogs conductivity. (Smart one 🤓👍). Keep up the great work you do rescueing peoples locos from the fiddle yard of doom. Mega hero points. Look forward to the next vid. 🙂👍
The capacitor is no good for a DC steam locomotive. They are intended for diesel or coach lighting. They will require diodes fitted. They need to be in reverse of each other, connected to the positive of the capacitor. To then take the power, no matter what the polarity, from the pick-ups. The power is then fed to the lights from the capacitor. You will then need to have the same for the ground, to make sure that the pick-up polarity does not go the wrong way through the capacitor and lights.
Excellent job on one of my favourite locos. I'm a big fan of the Airfix/Dapol tender drives and have fitted a couple into kit built locos too - as you say they'll pull anything.
I once bought 3 of these Airfix/Dapol P2`s on eBay, one in LMS crimson, one in LMS black and one in S&DJR blue. (These gears are a nightmare to service!) But they are beautiful engines!
It's actually taken from a photo at a real JET garage so is a real price at that location. Probably won't be long before your Tesco is more expensive though! I don't plan on changing the prices very often....
Hi, Nice work & very useful as I have similar 'stopy starty' problems with mine! 1999 model, also wheels lock up! but no damage to the pickups. my question is, how did you know the wheels are upside down? Thanks
Jiggery fafferey . Is that worse than jiggery pockery? Another good one ! The price of your diesel in the Jet garage is pretty accurate . Looks good if a bit modern
Hi, great job, nice work, can I ask, how do you know the wheels where up side down? my 1999 2P has similar issues although no damage to the pickups. thanks for any advice.
I had a Dapol 2 P and it sounded like rocks in a cement mixer. In the end I fitted the body to a scratch built engine driven chassis. It looked a bit ugly with no detail on the frames but it ran smoothly and quietly. Wish I hadn't passed it on 😢. You can quiten the grinding by squeezing some sound deadening blu tac into the tender.
Your electronic knowledge is more than adequate... For it to work at all would require a huge capacitor, and it can't EVER work bidirectionally. What it _could_ keep alive is LED lighting.
My layout isn't based on any era. I run diesels and steam from different eras of LNER, LMS, Caledonian and BR with a couple of oddities. It's sort of a modernish heritage line so I don't want to lock it down to any specific time period. I prefer to keep off track detail such as cars etc fairly modern. Otherwise it's a bit of a rabbit hole I really don't want to go down with this layout. I plan to have a small N gauge shelf layout one day based on a Victorian or Edwardian country station which will be another matter altogether.
Not sure how well this works, but a mate of mine with a layout and several old Triang/Lima locos solved his stalling on points problem by covering various sections of the point with tin foil. I've also seen it done on TH-cam. Similar fix to the copper tape one, I guess
Yes same idea. The advantage with the copper tape is that it's adhesive and thinner. The adhesive actually insulates it though so that's why a blob of solder is required to connect to the track.
Bill, my understanding of stay-alives is that they will work on DC for lighting because the drain on the capacitor is so low. However, when it comes to motors, the drain on the capacitor is so great that it is almost instantaneous - i.e. it won't work! I stand to be corrected if I am wrong.
Not sure what sort of circuitry is employed. But a RC network is used in timing. Depending on the size of the capacitor and the resistor depends on how long the Capacitor takes to discharge. So it should be OK to get a train across points.
Nice repair and back to sort of silent running too., but instead of copper tape and solder you can buy electrically conductive paint? no idea how it would work with rolling stock, but it's a fun product.
Copper shielding tape can withstand a track rubber if used gently which I don't think paint would. Dunno though. Might try it at some point but I have loads of copper tape!
Hi again, Bill. Regarding the capacitor issue, does the charging time affect its performance? If the loco hits a point etc before it has time to charge, then I guess it's pretty useless? This process then continues around the layout, thus the capacitor never charges sufficiently to act as a "stay alive". Mind you, I'm no electronics engineer so I may well be talking nonsense!
Layout is looking good now. I converted an N gauge 2p into great central Butler Henderson. It was an awful runner. Not as good as this. But it looked great
In one direction an electrolytic capacitor will be reverse charged - electrolytics, even small ones, can make nice bangs when reverse-polarised. A resistor in series is also a good idea.
Another good locomotive rescue. I think the 'DC Stay Alive Capacitors' are in the same family as those cheap Capacitor Discharge units for point motors. Junk, and suitable only for e-waste. On a positive note, the new layout improvements are nice.
The only capacitor that might just about work would be an old amp capacitor. It is bigger than the loco. I think the variable voltage has something to do with it not working. What do you use in your hight frequency (not the correct name, I can't think what it is called.) cleaner? Do you use IPA?
The reason DC stay alives don't work is two fold: 1. DC controllers don't output pure DC, they output pulses which help give high torque at lower seeds and maintain smooth running. E.g. you may have 15V peak to peak pulses, with a mark space ratio of 50% giving an AVERAGE voltage of 7.5V. Capacitors store PEAK voltage, so the stay alive capacitor cannot store the correct DC voltage. 2. The capacitors are simply not large enough, you would need at least 100,000uF to store the voltage long enough to deliver motor currents of 200mA . In reality stay alive caps on DC only impair motor performance as they try and smooth out the DC pulses. Lighting is of course a different topic, as LEDs like a smooth DC supply of 2 to 3V, depending on the colour of the LED, hence lighting circuits tend to have rectification for correct directional operation, current limiting, voltage stabilisation. and smoothing.
R2099B with the running number 645. Ex Mainline model produced in 1999 from when after Palitoy took over Airfix range. When you say 'old' only seems like yesterday buy at 24 years it IS 'old' The 2P you had was a Triang R450 running number 690 produced 1973-1975
I do like the way you do not hide how fiddly some of what you do is and how it does not always go right first time.
An extremely difficult repair, successfully negotiated. I have one of these, 644, converted to DCC and it is an extremely good slow runner despite the Airfix motor. So is my Airfix 4F and also Airfix Royal Scot. My 2P, which I think is 2099C, has pickups as standard on the bogie wheels, unlike this model, , which obviously helps over points and so on.. It will need a service soon and so your video is a perfect example of how to take apart and service the motor. Very helpful.
Replying to myself! I obviously forgot to say that with the bogie wheel pickups the 2099C should not need a stay alive because it picks up from 4 wheels rather than just the two.
Thanks for doing a fabulous job on Nathan’s 2P. It runs like a dream and no longer stopping on the points. Excellent work👍
Nice job, Bill!
The layout is slowly turning from a vision into reality.
Scenic work is coming on a treat.
My friend is building a DCC layout - I am assisting in various ways - but despite all the literal bells and whistles, I still think DC has still got a lot to be said for it. DCC seems almost complex for complexities sake!
Best wishes from Wirral
Great repair enjoyed watching. I have this in the S&D blue livery. Thanks for showing. Regards Paul.
Always nice to see a successful overhaul. Wow, lots of scenery on the layout now!
The copper tape trick looks a good subject for a future video, Bill!
😮 great repair work as usual, and I have also seen your progress with the layout 😊. Like the road coming out under the railway bridge, and the petrol station looks very nice.
Yet another great rescue vid.🤓👍
Bought you a coffee to help relieve the stress of this one.
Nice to see Hornby stocking older spares & not charging the Earth for them.
The layout's looking very nice indeed & i like the tip to improve non electro frogs conductivity. (Smart one 🤓👍).
Keep up the great work you do rescueing peoples locos from the fiddle yard of doom. Mega hero points.
Look forward to the next vid. 🙂👍
Cheers!
Nice work.
I've recently purchased a 2P so this is great reference material.
Thanks Bill.
The layout progress is looking good too. 👍
Mon
The capacitor is no good for a DC steam locomotive. They are intended for diesel or coach lighting. They will require diodes fitted. They need to be in reverse of each other, connected to the positive of the capacitor. To then take the power, no matter what the polarity, from the pick-ups. The power is then fed to the lights from the capacitor. You will then need to have the same for the ground, to make sure that the pick-up polarity does not go the wrong way through the capacitor and lights.
Excellent job on one of my favourite locos. I'm a big fan of the Airfix/Dapol tender drives and have fitted a couple into kit built locos too - as you say they'll pull anything.
Great job and a Fine looking Loco that has a Great Action - My 2p is a brilliant workhorse that keeps on giving - Layouts looking fab Bill 👏🏻👏🏻✨
Just look at the layout. Its looking fantastic. 😊😊😊😊
Nice loco... I'm sure Simon will be pleased with your efforts...
Very nice modelling there, on the layout...
👍👍🙂🙂
Great progress Bill, and an excellent repair. Don't fancy the prices at that Jet petrol station, though!
I once bought 3 of these Airfix/Dapol P2`s on eBay, one in LMS crimson, one in LMS black and one in S&DJR blue. (These gears are a nightmare to service!) But they are beautiful engines!
My local Tesco garage is cheaper than your JET garage...... but great to see the progress, Bill.
It's actually taken from a photo at a real JET garage so is a real price at that location. Probably won't be long before your Tesco is more expensive though! I don't plan on changing the prices very often....
@@oobill All said in good fun.
Yet another great loco autopsy. Great video bill . Keep up the good work my friend.
I've had a wee drink in a Queen's head and a King's Arms, but never a Gnome's Legs!🤣🤣🤣
Another great repair sorted. A pleasure to watch.
Hi, Nice work & very useful as I have similar 'stopy starty' problems with mine! 1999 model, also wheels lock up! but no damage to the pickups. my question is, how did you know the wheels are upside down? Thanks
Jiggery fafferey . Is that worse than jiggery pockery? Another good one ! The price of your diesel in the Jet garage is pretty accurate . Looks good if a bit modern
Definitely worse! My layout isn't modeled on any particular era. If anything it's a modern heritage line so pretty much anything goes.
That was a right fiddle Bill, well done, good result
Hi, great job, nice work, can I ask, how do you know the wheels where up side down? my 1999 2P has similar issues although no damage to the pickups. thanks for any advice.
I had a Dapol 2 P and it sounded like rocks in a cement mixer. In the end I fitted the body to a scratch built engine driven chassis. It looked a bit ugly with no detail on the frames but it ran smoothly and quietly. Wish I hadn't passed it on 😢. You can quiten the grinding by squeezing some sound deadening blu tac into the tender.
Your electronic knowledge is more than adequate... For it to work at all would require a huge capacitor, and it can't EVER work bidirectionally.
What it _could_ keep alive is LED lighting.
Layout looking good, Mr Bill
Looking forward to the next layout update!
Another great video, just one comment you need to get some 1940/50s road vehicles when you run steam trains
My layout isn't based on any era. I run diesels and steam from different eras of LNER, LMS, Caledonian and BR with a couple of oddities. It's sort of a modernish heritage line so I don't want to lock it down to any specific time period. I prefer to keep off track detail such as cars etc fairly modern. Otherwise it's a bit of a rabbit hole I really don't want to go down with this layout. I plan to have a small N gauge shelf layout one day based on a Victorian or Edwardian country station which will be another matter altogether.
Not sure how well this works, but a mate of mine with a layout and several old Triang/Lima locos solved his stalling on points problem by covering various sections of the point with tin foil. I've also seen it done on TH-cam.
Similar fix to the copper tape one, I guess
Yes same idea. The advantage with the copper tape is that it's adhesive and thinner. The adhesive actually insulates it though so that's why a blob of solder is required to connect to the track.
Bill, my understanding of stay-alives is that they will work on DC for lighting because the drain on the capacitor is so low. However, when it comes to motors, the drain on the capacitor is so great that it is almost instantaneous - i.e. it won't work! I stand to be corrected if I am wrong.
Not sure what sort of circuitry is employed. But a RC network is used in timing. Depending on the size of the capacitor and the resistor depends on how long the Capacitor takes to discharge. So it should be OK to get a train across points.
Do you have to charge it first?
Looks like good progress being made on the layout
Nice repair and back to sort of silent running too., but instead of copper tape and solder you can buy electrically conductive paint? no idea how it would work with rolling stock, but it's a fun product.
Copper shielding tape can withstand a track rubber if used gently which I don't think paint would. Dunno though. Might try it at some point but I have loads of copper tape!
Conductive paint cracks easily in my experience .. it does not last long in situations with vibration or where metal expands and contracts I find.
Hi again, Bill. Regarding the capacitor issue, does the charging time affect its performance? If the loco hits a point etc before it has time to charge, then I guess it's pretty useless? This process then continues around the layout, thus the capacitor never charges sufficiently to act as a "stay alive".
Mind you, I'm no electronics engineer so I may well be talking nonsense!
Layout is looking good now. I converted an N gauge 2p into great central Butler Henderson. It was an awful runner. Not as good as this. But it looked great
In one direction an electrolytic capacitor will be reverse charged - electrolytics, even small ones, can make nice bangs when reverse-polarised. A resistor in series is also a good idea.
Another good locomotive rescue. I think the 'DC Stay Alive Capacitors' are in the same family as those cheap Capacitor Discharge units for point motors. Junk, and suitable only for e-waste. On a positive note, the new layout improvements are nice.
Gnomes' Legs? Something you eat? Place to drink? Thanks for another great video....
The only capacitor that might just about work would be an old amp capacitor. It is bigger than the loco. I think the variable voltage has something to do with it not working.
What do you use in your hight frequency (not the correct name, I can't think what it is called.) cleaner? Do you use IPA?
I use diluted Prior Polishes clock cleaning fluid.
Amused by the pub's name!😂😂😂
i have this in sdjr but mine has pick ups in the front bogie as well
The reason DC stay alives don't work is two fold:
1. DC controllers don't output pure DC, they output pulses which help give high torque at lower seeds and maintain smooth running. E.g. you may have 15V peak to peak pulses, with a mark space ratio of 50% giving an AVERAGE voltage of 7.5V. Capacitors store PEAK voltage, so the stay alive capacitor cannot store the correct DC voltage.
2. The capacitors are simply not large enough, you would need at least 100,000uF to store the voltage long enough to deliver motor currents of 200mA .
In reality stay alive caps on DC only impair motor performance as they try and smooth out the DC pulses.
Lighting is of course a different topic, as LEDs like a smooth DC supply of 2 to 3V, depending on the colour of the LED, hence lighting circuits tend to have rectification for correct directional operation, current limiting, voltage stabilisation. and smoothing.
R2099B with the running number 645. Ex Mainline model produced in 1999 from when after Palitoy took over Airfix range. When you say 'old' only seems like yesterday buy at 24 years it IS 'old'
The 2P you had was a Triang R450 running number 690 produced 1973-1975
I had both. I still have the Triang 690 but I scrapped the 645. There are videos on both on the channel somewhere.
Lovely loco
Instead of copper tape ,I used foil, which was a tip from Budget Model Railways .
hah I use the copper tape trick. slug repellant, cheap as chips
Bill works his magic again 👋
I think Oxford rail did a dc stay alive on the blacking plate for the 0-6-0 Janus shunter =/
I suspect that was a suppressor.
It's a bit of an old coffee grinder. Not sure I could be bothered with it.