I've read in the Bible that most people are going to heaven. *_"For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)"_* -- Romans 5:17. This verse is basically saying that "much more" people will be in heaven than in hell. And Romans 5:15 says something similar; *_"But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many."_* More people have eternal life than don't.
I need everyone to pray for my mom. Her brain tumor has gotten really bad and I need you to pray for her. She can’t speak well she can barely walk and I need you to help her out. Please I need you to😢
Ripple was a fortified wine produced by E & J Gallo Winery as a Low end fortified wine that was popular in the United States, particularly in the 1970s.
Jesus explicitly says, "there are few that will enter the kingdom of heaven.." - So while God knew beforehand most would be doomed to hell he still created us. As a believer I still find that hard to understand.
Our human existence is more a less a testing ground to see the full character of who we are. We can choose to serve God though honesty, faithfulness, generosity or we can cheat, lie, take from others and indulge in all of the worst aspects of our flesh. The struggle in serving God is setting aside your immediate desires and understanding that life here is nothing compared to the life after.
Frank, your logic based on Grace vs Justice was right on the mark. Does cause one to ponder carefully what one thinks & believes. Let’s pray that God will illuminate the minds of these questioners & they come to know the saving Grace of God.
Definitely sadistic. Funny how an all loving god dispenses so much of that justice rather than so much of that mercy. Funny how an all powerful god can’t figure out how to get more people into heaven. What a loser
@@dallas1891He has given us all option into heaven. You must remember we have sinned against God. He have broken his laws so why would he allow us into his home without some form of redemption?that's where Christ comes into play, he paid for the price for our sins and can forgive us. Therefore giving us grace and giving us the chance to enter heaven
@@dallas1891 oh, but he's not a loser, and can indeed figure out that. It's just he WON'T, because he's not loving. He's a lovecraftian horror and we are his playthings.
I wonder if he knows how diamonds are made, extreme pressures and extreme Heat, and look at the beauty it creates. The process might be very unpleasant I know all too well, but we know all things work together for good for those who love Christ and are called according to HIS purpose
Sure - no pain no gain. But what about an eternal hell? I can understand even millions of years of a hell - but one that NEVER ENDS? There's nothing good that would come out of that. Unless the rules and conditions for hell are different than what Christianity tells us. First, we have to prove that hell exists at all. Any takers?
But, what about an eternal choice that yields an eternal consequence? We don't have to prove hell. Christians didn't come up with that information. You either believe Christ or you don't.
@@TheGuy.."we don't have to prove hell" Or god... or the resurrection... or heaven... or demons.. or angels... Just pretend you know what you clearly do not The Christian way.
@@mattslater2603 I don't pretend to know, I claim that I believe. Don't confuse the Christian way with a confused pretender's way. Scripture doesn't require us to "know" but rather to believe (have faith) based on evidence (not proof).
I like Frank's answer. It is true that you are free to make your choices but not free from the consequences that come from those choices, whether good or bad. Therefore, it's on you what you choose. Think before you do something. Search for truth, and you shall find it, as did C.S. Lewis, Nabeel Kureshi, and others.
Just another example of man's proclivity to place responsibility for personal choices onto God. Man allowed evil to have dominion in this life when Adam & Eve made the personal chooice to listen to satan over God. Christ is the Redeemer
But that is the upshot of Christianity from the outside. Look at the story. God created the world and put Satan in charge. First...that means Adam's sin didn't introduce sin into the world...God did in the form of his hated nemesis. Satan was sin...the embodiment of sin and he sinned as he lied to Eve. So sin was there before Eve disobeyed. God exposed his newly formed and innocent creation to the wiliest of creatures. He didn't even give Adam and Eve the same option as Satan. Satan rebelled in heaven with NO one tempting him. But God apparently didn't believe/wasn't sure his creation COULD sin on their own, so he put Satan in charge and allowed him access to the humans for a little insurance they'd sin. And then, their sins didn't just affect them...there was this 'ripple' effect across the natural world and throughout history. But nothing can ripple unless there is something TO ripple IN, some sort of medium created by God to 'carry' a ripple forward and furthermore something has to have been given the potential/capacity to cause a ripple. Waves don't just ripple independently..they are a feature of water. So waves require water. And water doesn't ripple unless acted on by something that can cause ripples, like wind or a stone falling...cause and effect. But wind can't cause water to ripple unless there is friction and unless wind has momentum. And no causes can exist, no medium can exist but what God created it AND it's properties. IOW if sin caused a ripple, first sin had to be given that potential like wind has momentum and affects water through friction..otherwise would have no affect. So sin has to have momentum, so to speak, and there has to be friction, so to speak, for sin to affect some medium. Then whatever it was that rippled had to have been created by God with the properties that allowed it to ripple after it was affected by sin. So sure, Christians say humans are responsible for their sins...wink wink...but they really know, deep down, that the reason we are sinful is because we're all born sinful (that is what the story in Genesis is all about...why humans are prone to sin if they're made by a good God). And the reason the world is corrupt is because God put Satan in charge and that's why Paul invented the idea that Jesus died on the cross to appease God so we don't have to because rrreeeallllyyyy we just can't help ourselves.
Kiel, of course I've done things I shouldn't have. I'm all in favor of accountability. But the claim is that I was forced to sin because Adam and Eve messed up. If that's what happened, then Adam and Eve are fault. If on the other hand they had nothing to do with me, that's a different story.
@@mattr.1887 except that’s not the actual claim. You aren’t forced to do anything you do. You choose to behave as you have. And let’s be honest, we all know it. We all know we as humans make bad choices. I can blame my evil choices on others. If I was abused as a child, I can’t say that me abusing someone else is my parents fault. I still made The choice to do the things I have even if my environment had a factor. If that’s the argument, then should I ever be held accountable by the law? Abuse victims that kill people later in life get off scott free? We have a sin nature in the way that some people have an angry nature. It’s easy for those people to be angry and they often are, but no one argues that they are helpless and FORCED to be angry. They can choose each moment to be angry or not. They should be held accountable to their anger and the things they say and do while angry.
why God would create us knowing we would disobey him? well... how many times has your own children disobeyed you during their entire lifetime? if you could go back in time would you still have kids knowing this? I'm willing to bet most people would say yes... because of love. I have a feeling that God would still create humanity even if it meant only ONE person would be saved.
There's a completely different scale in question here. You might change your view if you found yourself in an eternal torture chamber because Christianity was wrong and the real truth was something else. But first, we have to prove that any of this is even real.
@@sterlingfallsproductions3930 wow resorting to insults already? “When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.” chill dude its not my fault my comment went way over your head. lol
@@mattr.1887 I have done my investigation already and have a TON of reasons and evidence for why I think Christianity specifically is true and why I came to choose Christianity over all the other religions. Here are a few great sources to start if you are interested. -"The Christian Difference" written by several authors with a background specialty in each religion. -"Cold-Case Christianity: A Homicide Detective Investigates the Claims of the Gospels" by J Arner Wallace. -John Lennox (Mathematician and bioethicist) who was a former Atheist, many books and videos available -William Lang Craig, philosopher. many books and videos available so take your pick -"Case for Christ, Case for a Creator, Case for a Savior" by former atheist Lee Strobel who came to Christianity by trying to prove it false. -pretty much anything from Frank Turek (Cross Examined) The list goes on but those sources are my favorite.
The only thing i believe from this guys mouth was..... how do we know that. Exactly! And that's my take on the good book & God. If you've heard one religious debate, you've heard them all.
"In order for God to be proved fair and just before the universe, there are times when He sees that it will be best to allow Satan to have his way in bringing trouble to us for a time. And often Satan is correct in claiming that we were seeking God only for what we hoped to gain from Him, and that if things were to stop going smoothly, we would stop seeking God." Quote from "Faith that Works" by Morris L. Venden
Frank is correct here. It is very likely that without suffering and evil, there would be far far fewer beleivers. This is evidenced, for example, by the countless testimonies that exist around the world where the instrumentalisation of suffering was integral to a person's conversion and/or sanctification. If God simply prevented suffering and evil, many of us (probably me included) would have continued living in ours sins. This becomes much more complex when you think about the ripple effect. For example, the suffering and martyrdom of the disciples has led many people 2000 years later to become convinced that what they were preaching is true, thereby leading them to repentance, salvation and sanctification. I commend the questioner in the video for being respectful and open to honest discussion.
You cannot seriously believe that if your god showed up tomorrow and abolished even a fraction of the suffering in the world less people would believe in that god. It could start with something simple, instead of just granting the gift of virtual immunity from cancer to the naked mole rat, extend that gift to human babies.
@@downenout8705 I don't see any good reason to rule out the theodicy I presented, especially given the examples I gave. You suggested that there wouldn't be any less believers if God abolished a fraction of the world's suffering. Well, how do we know how much of an abolition of suffering is required to maintain the number of believers, eventual believers and/or greater goods? And how do we guage how much suffering God *does* actually prevent? In fact, there have been numerous medically documented miraculous healings in Jesus' name. For example, I encourage you to look into the individual cases of Bruce Van Natta, Greg Spencer, Chris Gunderson, Barbara Snyder, Sister Bernadetta Moriau and Wes Huff. These are only a small number of examples out of many but they do provide powerful evidence
If this god came out of hiding, went around actually helping people and also eliminating the diseases it created, that god would win over countless people
@@lawrenceeason8007 Jesus did indeed do that and he won over many Jews. But I don't see how it can be demonstrated that overtly going around healing people would always lead to a maximisation of repentance and salvation. In fact, when Jesus performed miracles, many people became more hostile towards Him. Similarly, when God showed his power in Egypt, Pharaoh became more hostile towards God. Even today we see many atheists who say that they would not repent and become a Christian even if God showed up in their life. In contrast, we see countless testimonies of people coming to Christ because of the suffering they experienced in their life. It's very plausible that without the many sufferings in the world, people would reject God thinking there is no need for Him. Similarly, if God simply healed everyone, we would start taking God's salvation for granted, remaining in our sins and no longer seeking the Good (God)
It's ridiculous to see people project their subjective "RIGHT & WRONG" on God, then HATE God for having a different definition. Yet their "mind from matter" worldview leaves them with NO RIGHT to subjectively think they know what is right, unless God gave them a free will to freely choose what is truly right from wrong! Let's pray God saves them from their own illogical thinking. 💜✝️💜
@@stevenbatke2475 "Are you saying without the bible, you wouldn’t know what is right and wrong?" Actually what they're admitting is that they DO have an independent (of God) basis for evaluating good/evil and they USE that basis to conclude God and what he mandates is good. If they really believed they didn't know right from wrong other than due to what God tells them and instills in their hearts, then calling God good would be tantamount to calling a glimy glitches shuker because all glimy glitches are defined as being shuker. IOW all their discussions about God and goodness would be meaningless gibberish. They could certainly have no personal convictions of what is right/wrong because all of their convictions would not be theirs but would have been placed there by God.
@@stevenbatke2475 Fair question.... Did you freely CHOOSE to ask it? I'm ultimately saying either God exists or he doesn't... If He does NOT exist; then none of us have the ability to CHOOSE and decide what is right or wrong. Because we don't have a mind that can think through things and choose our own outcome between two possible outcomes (choose what is right and wrong). We just have a "brain" . And that brain was not created by an intelligent mind, but instead by random processes that give us the illusion of intelligence. And that brain is literally constrained to function within the laws of science which state everything must follow those laws perfectly and can NEVER "choose* their outcome. Therefore, in that no-God world, us humans don't ACTUALLY have the freedom to freely choose anything. Our brains are just BIOLOGICAL CALCULATORS. They are made up of exactly predictable electrical and chemical reactions, that are 100% forced to follow the predefined laws of science. Reactions CAN'T reason. They can't choose between two possible outcomes. They just blindly follow a predefined process that started all the way back at the Big bang's start of our universe, until now. If that's the case our lack of choice is pointless because life has no meaning at all. So there's no logical reason to choose to love it or live it. IN FACT WITHOUT CHOICE, WE CAN'T EVEN LOVE. It's just artificial chemical reactions in our brain that have no real meaning. BUT....... IF GOD DOES EXIST, then His intelligent mind is what gave us a FREE WILL to choose. And therefore I can look at all the evidence that points to the reality of God, and freely weigh that evidence and rationalize and choose what I think it points to as the "most reasonable" conclusion. I did that and it clearly points to the fact that it is more reasonable to believe God exists, then to believe the alternative. For example, mountain of secular and biblical and archaeological evidence that supports the reality of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, demonstrates it's more reasonable to believe He is God, because He controlled life and death exactly as He predicted he would in the historical accounts documented in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Since He is God, and truly brought everything into existence out of nothing (which breaks all scientific laws, but is what all the scientific evidence points to that as the reality of the start of our universe at the big bang) then His definition of right and wrong within His creation IS the only logical definition of right and wrong for all of creation. In a world with no God, I have no grounds to say what I think is right, is any more right than Hitler's definition of right. We are both simply randomly created beings, with no real free will, and therefore no real ability to know what is right from wrong. We just know what our random process created biological calculators happen to calculate. And no random process created biological calculator is more "right" then another, when it comes to morality. Are you following me? Did I answer your question? Come look me up and let's talk. It would be much easier than texting in a video comment. I can show you the evidence inside and outside the Bible, and you can evaluate it for yourself, and freely choose what you think is most reasonable to believe the evidence points towards. Assuming you have the ability to freely make a choice, that is 😜
@@stevenbatke2475 The Bible (the Word) is the truth, Jesus is the truth. Not to mention that God put the law in everyone’s heart. Without God no human being could have known what is right and wrong. Grace is what we need if we want to be with God meaning if we want real love, light, truth, faith, and hope in this life.
This is all speculation, speculation. "Well how do you know it isn't...?" etc.. and then the free will. We are required to make a choice with no opt out possible. How free is that? People don't "reject" God, they can't bring themselves to believe in a Book that SAYS there's a god , chiefly because the evidence is "hidden", for some reason.
The ripple effect only works if there is something to ripple and if the thing that happens can be transmitted via those ripples. IOW, in a world created entirely by God...there is nothing that happens, 'by chance.' Nothing happens but what it is due to processes/methods/means created by God and God had to also build into the world vulnerabilities so that when the 'ripple' hits something...it reacts or is otherwise affected. And NO, we're not talking about free will. This has nothing to do with one's freedom to sin. This is about the long term effects, the down stream effects, the ancillary effects of that sin. There can be none...no downstream effects except God created the possibility. And since it was design...God intentionally created the world so IF sin happened, then THOSE downstream effects would happen. IOW it wasn't by accident that the world was created vulnerable to sin. It seems folks want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to contend God not only designed (and design is key) and created the world. He also created every capability and vulnerability. What's more, God continuously holds the world together...so whatever happens...whatever 'ripples' due to God keeping it rippling. Waves 'ripple' on the water due to momentum. Momentum was created by God. Momentum is maintained by God at every moment. If God ceased to support that momentum, the ripples would stop. In like fashion and now we're not talking about water anymore, the ripple effect of sin is due to a medium that ripples...ie something that can carry the effects of sin forward, and the momentum of the ripple in that medium only can continue BECAUSE God holds it together continuously.
@@sterlingfallsproductions3930 What do you mean 'good in ripples?' If you're talking about situations where someone does a good deed, is kind, etc. and someone experiences the good deed and then does another good deed for someone else...then yes, that is the kind of 'ripple' effect one can understand. But that's NOT what I understand the 'ripple' effect is that he's talking about...if he's basing it on Genesis. Let's use that example to describe what happened. The serpent lied (sinned) and convinced Eve to sin and she convinced Adam to sin. Those are understandable ripple affects. One can be linked to the other. But what caused the world to be cursed? What linked Adam and Eve to the natural world itself, to other life forms, and to their children and their children's children? THAT link is NOT automatically part of the ripple effect described above. There is no logical reason for those things to be affected...unless God created the mechanism for it to BE affected. Why would their disobedience cause genetic defects...there's no 'link' between what Adam thought and did with the sperm he hadn't even produced yet that would sire his sons and daughters...there is no automatic way that his thoughts and decisions should cause his cells and body chemistry to be different unless God created that means. Even if they were cast out of an idyllic Garden, there's no reason why things that hadn't come into existence yet would be corrupted by their sin...no direct connection...unless God created that connection. THAT is what the ripple effect means...God created a medium which COULD ripple and gave that medium the properties to carry that ripple forward and also gave sin the power/properties to cause a ripple. All of that had to have been intentionally designed and created by God.
Matthew 7:13 says that “broad is the path that leads to destruction and many will enter thereof”. Does this not indicate that “more” people, than not, will end up in hell?
Sheol usually translated Hell or its equivalent in the Bible is the "under world or subterranean cave" (Gesenius Heb. Lex., p. 1022). Sheol, then, is the earth in winter, when the Sun appears among the southern constellations. This is the true meaning of Sheol, which corresponds to the Hades of the Greeks. "Hades is an intermediate state between death and resurrection” = between death and life; it is the earth's sleep. (See Smith's Bib. Dict., Art. Hell). Sheol includes Limbo, or the border of Hell farthest from the state of bliss = summer, where all of earth who have reaped the fruits. The gate to Heaven aka spring equinox is guarded by a son of Jupiter aka Perseus. Gad, the tribe assigned to the Ram Constellation is copied from Fortuna, a daughter of Jupiter. The gate to Hell is the autumn equinox and is left unguarded. There are several calendars used in the bible. One is where "Hell" consists of five signs and a good example is Revelation 9.5. The scorpion (Scorpio constellation) is the leader of Sagittarius (Fire/Jupiter), Capricorn (Earth/Vesta), Aquarius (Air/Juno), and Pisces (Water/Neptune). The three sons of Noah (Earth) are Shem (winter), Japheth (spring), and Ham (summer).
An omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent god should be able to create a being that can have free will without suffering. It's a logical paradox to us humans who live in the real world, but a god that can do anything could solve this problem. What is heaven? Is there free will in heaven?
Heaven (biblical) is the period of crop production and harvest. For the northern hemisphere, this is symboled as beginning at the spring equinox and ending at the autumn equinox (this is the six "days" in Genesis one) and the signs are Aries thru Virgo. Hell (Sheol) is symboled as beginning at the autumn equinox and ending at the spring equinox (this is the six "nights" in Genesis one) and the signs are Libra thru Pisces. This is only the basic division of the year/world/generation and is constantly modified. Libra (Saturn Day) was moved above to join Aries thru Libra and became the Arc/Ark of the Covenant with "God." This sacred seven is found in many tales. This left Scorpio through Pisces symboling the evil season of winter aka sether (666). See Rev. 9.5, where the scorpion (Scorpio constellation) is the leader of the five months that can harm man (cold/hunger/darkness/sickness/etc....). This scorpion in Rev 9.5, leads Sagittarius, Capricorn, Aquarius, and Pisces. One Roman calendar has Pisces as the last month of the year (sacred). This sign was depicted as having forty days (Lent) that leads us the the pass over from winter to spring. February was the month of purification. Another calendar depicts the year divided into the trinity of winter (Sagittarius - Pisces), spring (Aries - Cancer), and summer (Leo - Scorpio). All three of these seasons begins with Jupiter/Fire (Sun). This trinity is aka Vishnu, Brahma, and Siva. An excellent example is Isaiah 9.14-15, where Israel (summer) is depicted as having the head of the noble/royal lion (Leo) and tail of the liar (Scorpio). The "historical" Israel is made up of Leo, Virgo, Libra, and Scorpio.
If we're to have free will in Heaven, and being proven that with free will sin happens... then Heaven won't last long. So for Heaven to be eternal, free will must be taken away from us. Wait a moment... If that's the case, why doesn't God make it right away, and prefers to play sadistic games with us in the meantime?
Amazes me how quickly religious people shift from 'we can't know the mind of God or his plan" on difficult questions, to speaking confidently on his behalf for simple questions.
Only free people can have a choice and we've all chosen evil to some extent. No one wants the ability to choose to be taken away. If it were, we'd charge God with being unjust for not giving us a choice. Evil is here and thrives because we're sinners and we want it.
But free will isn't the issue, is it? It's that humans have a fallen, corrupt nature. And also that God permits Satan to rule the world. Isn't that a bit more than just creating a good world and giving people free will? IOW, if you are basing any of your doctrine on Genesis, then sin was in the world before Eve succumbed to temptation. It was there because God allowed/put it there in the form of the evil serpent who most see as Satan, a fallen angel who rebelled in heaven and took some of the angels with him. IOW, God created Lucifer. Lucifer rebelled and left heaven. But when God created the natural world, he put Lucifer in charge. THAT is different than simply creating a world and giving people a choice.
@@rizdekd3912 As it's written, death entered the world by sin and sin by the fall of Adam and Eve. People not only inherited the sin nature but even the earth was cursed because of Adam. Nothing says otherwise pre Adam and Eve. Man was given dominion over the earth and they sold it out to Satan when they fell.
I am a Christian and was asked by my nephew about free will - his question was this - does God know what I will choose? And if God knows what I will choose, then how could it be a free will if He already knows what I will do? Because if He knows what I will choose then my choice is already predetermined... thoughts?
personally... i see things like this. Just like if you put a ball on a waterslide.. you can guess where it will go. If you write a program to out put certain responses under certain conditions.. the program will do that. We as humans can't manufacture thoughts out of thin air that are not put there or are built on previous thoughts or we see something and it gives us an idea. To make a long story short. If you had a Godlike ability to examine every factor that will influence a person.. you could predict accurately exactly the words they will say even 20 years from now. This probably doesn't answer your question. Actually i wish i didn't think this way.
GOD allows evil to happen because of free will. Yes their choices ripple and affect others. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil
I have a question! Why did God feel a need to make a world to worship him? Isn't that kind of narcisistic? I feel awkward if someone sings me happy birthday, so the idea of creating people with their sole purprose to worship me feels insane. Why does he need us to worship and love him?
@@rebeccablackburn9487 Rarely a thing in Sweden, the point being, the Christian deity is a raging narcisist if he feels like he needshis most important creation to worship everything about him
I think the observers in the show Fringe are another great way to demonstrate the ripple effect. They were beings outside time that typically only observed, but could also make slight changes that then had bigger and bigger effects in the world. I believe God operates on a more grand scale than even that of the observers.
Thank you so much. I never knew that there were different levels of punishment for people. I has to read luke 12 multiple times to understand that. So this video caused me to do that. Thank you. :)
@BaJanglesMcHumpry Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. In verse 47, it said that the guy who knew his lord's will, but didn't do it will be punished with many stripes. But the one who didn't know but still did evil will still get published, but with fewer stripes. Which means those who go to hell won't suffer the same as others.
From a spiritual perspective, God is the Perfect Gentleman. He will always give a person, family, and society what they ask for. If we are going to define "good" as getting everything you want and experiencing everything you want (as the spirit of the age says), then God is simply playing by the rules of the world and showing Himself to be perfectly "loving." So if you don't want anything to do with Him, if you want to spit in God's face and flip the bird at him, then that is fine with Him. Go your own way. He will let you.
We were not designed to live apart from God. So, I don't see the consequences of someone's using their free will to choose to be separate from God as a "punishment", but rather a result of the choices they made.
As much as we can say "why is there evil?" , most of us wouldn't know happiness without adversity. Of course things like murder, r@pe, robbing, etc. are totally awful in every way, most of us would hate a world where everything went perfect all the time. No one wants to watch a movie where everything goes perfectly for the characters with no type of challenge. The reason I don't like a lot of Christian movies, is because many can be quite dishonest about human emotion and experience. Many are great because they understand needing something to overcome. Doesn't mean we should welcome evil, it just means we should find life in going against it
Romans 8:28 KJV And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. Simple answer
He never said Luke mentions Hitler. What Frank said is that Luke 12 contains the idea that some people will be punished more than others. Jesus mentions it specifically in verses 47-48.
The ripple effect argument sounds comforting and logical, but it can be used both ways, so it really isnt worth much. A meaningsless horrible event cant just as well ripple effect into another horrible event.
So the argument that is often used is that "Moral Absolutes" prove the existence of God. Then in the same breath, God can break those absolutes for his own purposes and it is a good thing...a good ripple effect. God can test and destroy a loyal Job because the Devil wants proof and then give him back another family and everything is hunky dory. What a load.
Isn't it interesting that the same people who criticize God for allowing evil are the ones that either commit evil and perversion or excuse it in others.
How telling that if Christian soteriology is correct the most important factor that differentiates those deserving eternal paradise and those deserving eternal torment is the geographical location one is born into. If one is born in Saudi Arabia there is about a 95% chance that you will belive in the "wrong" God and reject jesus and thus receive eternal damnation in a lake of fire. However be born into America and magically there is about a 95% chance that you will believe in the "right" God and thus receive eternal salvation. 👏👏 Allegedly this is the justice of a perfect omnibenevolent omnipotent omniscient loving God. The fact that many people who reject jesus often lead devout pious lives and follow very strict and demanding religious practices with regards to worship, diet, clothing and relationships is not a factor, these people seemingly reject jesus because they *"want to sin"* 🤔🤫 Some live lives of isolation and quiet contemplation taking vows of celibacy and silence but the loving jesus still deems these people unworthy of anything other than eternal torment. Conversely however a murderer so long as he truly repents and accepts Jesus on his death bed he can spend an eternity in paradise with those he murdered. Unless of course those people also found the "evidence" for your God unconvincing, in which case the murderer would be looking down from paradise on the people he killed as they too suffered for eternity with me 😡
We could debate semantics all we want about why evil exists, but our brains can’t understand God’s perfect morality. We can’t fathom it, nor attain it. All we can do is use the “problem of evil” as a proof for God’s existence, because if it weren’t for a perfect ideal we’d have nothing to compare or contrast ourselves to. And if that’s the case, which it would have to be, then that perfect ideal has to be God. Regardless of your faith, if you don’t believe especially- and you have a problem with evil, then I think you should take it upon yourself to alleviate the suffering of others wherever you may find it.
Leviticus 26:14-17 NIV [14] “ ‘But if you will not listen to me and carry out all these commands, [15] and if you reject my decrees and abhor my laws and fail to carry out all my commands and so violate my covenant, [16] then I will do this to you: I will bring on you sudden terror, wasting diseases and fever that will destroy your sight and sap your strength. You will plant seed in vain, because your enemies will eat it. [17] I will set my face against you so that you will be defeated by your enemies; those who hate you will rule over you, and you will flee even when no one is pursuing you. Leviticus 26:21-22 [21] “ ‘If you remain hostile toward me and refuse to listen to me, I will multiply your afflictions seven times over, as your sins deserve. [22] I will send wild animals against you, and they will rob you of your children, destroy your cattle and make you so few in number that your roads will be deserted. Leviticus 26:27-29 NIV [27] “ ‘If in spite of this you still do not listen to me but continue to be hostile toward me, [28] then in my anger I will be hostile toward you, and I myself will punish you for your sins seven times over. [29] You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters. So much for free will. Sounds more like an ultimatum
Hardly unreal. All he does is say god's will is unknowable whenever he's asked a question that points out a contradiction. He'd make a great used car salesman.
@@jonsoule7421 You are claiming that "whenever he is asked a question he just says it is God's will"? I just saw a video where someone said it was a contradiction between the accounts of Jesus's resurrection. He answered by saying that it was different perspective, and that if police are given two testimonies that are too similar they think that you are lying. So the different perspective further prove in the eye witness accounts. That right there is an answer he gave, where he didn't say "its God's will". So no, he doesn't always say that.
@@laquan3661 Well, do you mean in revolting 2 Samuel 24? Or - in reprehensible, Leviticus 25:46? Perhaps also, when Augustine was running his mouth off, with ideas about 'typoi' kinds of inherent Jewish guilt, too? As regards the crucifixion.
Sheol usually translated Hell or its equivalent in the Bible is the "under world or subterranean cave" (Gesenius Heb. Lex., p. 1022). Sheol, then, is the earth in winter, when the Sun appears among the southern constellations. This is the true meaning of Sheol, which corresponds to the Hades of the Greeks. "Hades is an intermediate state between death and resurrection” = between death and life; it is the earth's sleep. (See Smith's Bib. Dict., Art. Hell). Sheol includes Limbo, or the border of Hell farthest from the state of bliss = summer, where all of earth who have reaped the fruits. The gate to Heaven aka spring equinox is guarded by a son of Jupiter aka Perseus. Gad, the tribe assigned to the Ram Constellation is copied from Fortuna, a daughter of Jupiter. The gate to Hell is the autumn equinox and is left unguarded. There are several calendars used in the bible. One is where "Hell" consists of five signs and a good example is Revelation 9.5. The scorpion (Scorpio constellation) is the leader of Sagittarius (Fire/Jupiter), Capricorn (Earth/Vesta), Aquarius (Air/Juno), and Pisces (Water/Neptune). The three sons of Noah (Earth) are Shem (winter), Japheth (spring), and Ham (summer). The three baptisms of Earth are Water (winter), Air (spring), and Fire (summer). The 12 signs make up the body of man (everyone) with the Ram as the head and the Fishes as the feet.
How do you reconcile this with Jesus's teaching in Matthew: Matthew 7:13-14 ESV - “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
@festushaggen2563 "a choice we all get to make" Nope, wrong There are people who love and die without ever being made aware of the silly supernatural claims of Christianity. Do you ever think anything through?
@@mattslater2603 Those people either WILL get to make choice (after "life"); demonstrated by their lives that they WOULD have chosen him directly if they'd been presented with the choice directly, or, are people whom god knew would reject him no matter what [OR were 'just animals', like the before-Adam h. sapiens were], and, therefore, don't matter. 😏
What if they hear the wrong version of Christianity? Or they get insufficient information? Or maybe they accept God and morality, but they aren't convinced the entire Bible is inerrant?
I allow it...because TRUTHFULL RESPONSIBILITY COMES WITH ALL THOUGHTS, PRONOUNS AND DEEDS. HOW ELSE TO BE FREE ? YIS-YA... the one many call Jesus Christ and GOD.
I like Franks teaching...IF the majority Reject grace His love Jesus...and the majority choose evil instead...thats justice. Now look at Gods actions..in the days of Noah the world was Full of immorality and sin..only Noah and his family were spared they in Gods eyes were righteous. Now if God wanted He could have destroyed or erased planet earth...But He didn’t He saw Noah's obedience. It Amazes me what God does when theres only One or two souls but their obedience their love for God...moves the Lord. He would save those little few in the mist of multitudes that choose evil.
If a being could see the future and see that some would become evil so then he never creates them then how could he have ever seen their future if he was never going to create them see the dilemma?
@@Gek1177 No because he seen he was going to create it and therefore seen its future also. Before the beginning of anything. I know this is hard to follow TC.
I think is so sad how people always want to use the "God is condemning us" argument. no he's not. you condemn yourself by choosing to reject the gift of grace he is freely offering you and to live out eternity without him. if God is a good god and does all out of love and to be with him would provide you with ultimate and ever lasting joy, peace and happiness then if you chose to walk away from him coz whatever reason where would that put you logically? in a place where love, Joy, peace and happiness are absent which is what hell is a place of pain and suffering. and what's worse you will realize what you lost and suffer with regret for all eternity on top of it all.
Lol what utter piffle, lol what utter piffle, BELIEF is NOT *"CHOICE"* or a mere act of volition. Sure someone can pretend to believe anything but the things one actually believe are not something you choose they are an involuntary response to one's level of information and understanding of their environment. You are either convinced or you are unconvinced and its EVIDENCE that convinces. I could not just make myself believe in pixies no matter how much I closed my eyes and stamped my feet. Anymore than you could right now "choose" to be convinced that God is not real or that the laws of gravity don't apply to you if you step off that cliff. Tell me could you genuinely "choose" to believe the internet does not exist and we are not having this discourse now ?? I'm talking about being CONVINCED of it bud not just pretending!! Give me an honest answer , could you right now "Choose" to believe in Thor or Zeus ??? 🤔 No of course not, for exactly the same reason I can't choose to believe in Yahweh. Now if I recieved some irrefutable knowledge or evidence then I would have no "choice" but to believe, I would have to deny my own reasoning and senses. That what changes beliefs, not "choice" If you came home and found your spouse in bed with the neighbour, could you just "CHOOSE" to believe in his fidelity and go back downstairs to make him a nice cup of tea ?? 🤣😅🤣
@@trumpbellend6717 I didn't say choice doesn't come with evidence. But if you bother to look at the evidence PROPERLY and without being biased you might see something in it that would convince you that between the two CHOICES of what you currently believe in and what the bible teaches is better. that's what it means to chose.
@@amandanield5380 // "I didn't say choice doesn't come with evidence" // Lol Christianity like all religions demands we believe on "faith" because we have insufficient evidence to justify belief in the extraordinary supernatural claims religions assert to be fact. Not just that but we have vast amounts of evidence that entirely conflicts with the biblical narrative. The evidence indicates that a snake has always lacked both the cognitive abilities and vocal chords required for speech as has a donkey. 😂😂😂 A man can NOT live in a "great fish", tribes of giants did NOT once inhabit the middle east along with witches demons, angel's, zombie's, demigod ect 😂🤣😅 The earth is NOT covered in a crystalline dome ( firmament ) that "keeps the waters out" nor does it have windows in it to "let the rain in" 😂😂 It does NOT contain both the sun and moon along with all the stars that the bible says can "fall to earth" ( most stars are many thousands of times bigger than the earth ) 😂😂😂😂 Man origins do NOT lie in a mud figurine instantly becoming a living breathing man and a rib becoming a woman only a few thousand years ago at the behest of a magical invisible being who thinks it moral to execute our unruly rebellious children who disobey their parents ( sounds like most teenagers to me ) 🤭 But hey if you disagree we could take turns presenting our testable, predictable, observable, falsefiable, peer reviewed evidence FOR our respective positions
@@amandanield5380 Erm, no, that's probably still not going to happen. I know Leviticus 25:46, is evil. And 2 Samuel 24, and also 2 Samuel 12:18. As well, as Deuteronomy 21:11, or Numbers 21:6. I know this very innately. At most, they are necessary evils. But they will never, be outright good. If it's good for, say, one man to die, for gathering wood on Sabbath... Or two men, for offering 'strange fire', or for a whole family to be... stoned, then burned, for hiding Jericho loot... Then it is at least as good, if not more so: to rescue many people from slavery within Christendom. Or abuses... or needless, sectarian wars; and an Inquisition. Hopefully, it is even more good, than the above. Yet evidently, this was not made an urgent, divine priority. Even as trading of slaves, went on for three centuries, or so. So - did medieval Jews, get grace? Or understand it? How about Africans... told many withering, inept lectures about the 'curse of Ham' or similar? And what of gay people, too? And can you freely choose, to leave friends... faith... family, or a lover... for a new belief? Without any reservations, looking back (ala Lot's wife) or grief? Or feeling no duress, too. Also - see Romans 8:30, too? Whilst Paul can certainly be said, many feel - to have had some bias, when drafting Romans 1. Including a bias of what he thought went through people's heads, often.
there is no free will, all predetermined, the extreme of how many percent of people into hell, is always unacceptable. if you believe all humanity is good, all go to heaven no matter Jesus's case or not. but due to the moral judgment we have on humanity's good and evils, we create hell for some people, including Christian god moral standards,
We're all going to receive justice when our time here is done, because it's still justice for a faithful follower of Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior to be forgiven for their sins based on Christ's redemptive works for them and their related relationship with Jesus because of them. Redemption is the justice that the Lord's mercy towards us (on and beyond the cross) desires, but if we reject Him along with that then we will receive the justice of His wrath which He does not desire. The Lord takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked but rather in their conversion. So, we all receive justice in the end, it's just a matter of whether or not that's positive or negative based on how we do it do not live for Jesus. In Christ, Andrew
Reminds me of Romans ”And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all-how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died-more than that, who was raised to life-is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: “For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.“ Romans 8:28-39
Frank, do not all things exist in the mind of God? Nothing exists apart from him, to be separate from him would be to not exist, so how does evil exist if all things are a part of him and in him there is no evil?
We are in the time of grace through Jesus christ... after the rapture grace done... so people who accept Jesus during this time will be save from the rapture... but there is a white throne judgment that all will face... these are two separate events... I believe who don't accept GOD now will have to answer for their decisions and may get and opportunity to exist...
Sheol usually translated Hell or its equivalent in the Bible is the "under world or subterranean cave" (Gesenius Heb. Lex., p. 1022). Sheol, then, is the earth in winter, when the Sun appears among the southern constellations. This is the true meaning of Sheol, which corresponds to the Hades of the Greeks. "Hades is an intermediate state between death and resurrection” = between death and life; it is the earth's sleep. (See Smith's Bib. Dict., Art. Hell). Sheol includes Limbo, or the border of Hell farthest from the state of bliss = summer, where all of earth who have reaped the fruits. The gate to Heaven aka spring equinox is guarded by a son of Jupiter aka Perseus. Gad, the tribe assigned to the Ram Constellation is copied from Fortuna, a daughter of Jupiter. The gate to Hell is the autumn equinox and is left unguarded. There are several calendars used in the bible. One is where "Hell" consists of five signs and a good example is Revelation 9.5. The scorpion (Scorpio constellation) is the leader of Sagittarius (Fire/Jupiter), Capricorn (Earth/Vesta), Aquarius (Air/Juno), and Pisces (Water/Neptune). The three sons of Noah (Earth) are Shem (winter), Japheth (spring), and Ham (summer). The three baptisms of Earth are Water (winter), Air (spring), and Fire (summer). The 12 signs make up the body of man (everyone) with the Ram as the head and the Fishes as the feet.
If all those generations of believers hadn’t been wrong in their belief, we wouldn’t have the opportunity to appreciate what Jesus did for us. And, we wouldn’t have the need to feel we are the moral standard. Disrespect for life is a privilege, and we should thank God for that freedom.
But even butterflies have to have air to fly in. And that air has to have properties that support their flight. There are a host of things that had to be designed, created and maintained before sin could have a 'down stream' 'rippling' effect. Consider that.
Franks answers to Coles questions are in my opinion bordering on ridiculousness. 1. Frank starts off asking how we know that most people will be going to hell, but doesn't refute it. We do know for a fact that most of earths population throughout time and up to present are not Christian, and even the ones who claim they are are probably in name only. You do the math. 2. Frank asserts that "how do you know that the evil that occurs in this world now may have good effects later in this world. I would say how would Frank possibly know that, and even if true does it justify the evil happening now? You can say all you want that the child who is dying from a brain eating amoeba will bring good to the world later on, but I say that is B.S. 3. Frank claims that God is outside of space and time so has the ability to trace all the ripple affects such as the child dying from a brain eating amoeba. Where did Frank pull that little gem out of? 4. Frank asks why are you assuming there is a moral standard judging what God does right. I think a thinking human being has the right to try to figure stuff out and judge what a hypothetical Christian God supposedly says in the Bible is fair ground. If such a supposed God takes offence to that, then he shouldn't have given us such good brains. 5. Frank gives the Robot analogy about why he didn't create all good people, which I find ridiculous. If evil exists in heaven then is everyone in heaven a robot? Free-will on many other levels already doesn't make sense. For example: If Frank was born in Pakistan, or Afghanistan, then he would probably be doing apologetics for Allah. If Frank was born in Thailand, he would probably be practicing Buddhism, or if Frank was born in Rome he would probably be a practicing Catholic. It Seems like man created God in his image, many gods in fact. Indoctrination more than reality seems to influence a person's "Choice" of religion. Some choice. 6. Frank say's that God is not a utilitarian God, Frank continues to say that utilitarian is doing whatever is the most good for the most people, and that would be smuggling in a moral law. I say that smuggling in some moral laws into the Christian religion has done a world of good. For example: The biblical advice that you should not beat your slaves so that they would die within a day or two, was finally destined to the scrap heap in most Christian churches, and the majority of Christians finally realized that slavery was evil and should be abolished. I'm glad that moral was smuggled in, as well as many more. 7. Frank tells Cole that he believes that God punishes everyone differently. Does this mean that hell isn't hell? Eternal damnation is different for everyone? Where did Frank pull this Gem from? 8. Frank claims that in the afterlife nobody gets a raw deal. So a finite crime deserves infinite punishment is not a raw deal? 9. Frank asks if you would rather have grace, or justice. How about a non interference clause where we are born and then die, then it is as it was before. Fortunately that is reality.
For those who question the goodness of God for sending unbelievers to eternal hell: Research annihilationism: the belief that spiritual death (which comes from sin) is simply that: your spirit/soul dies. That's what hell is. You no longer exist. If annihilationism is true, then now the Bible makes more sense. 1. God said Adam would die on the DAY that he ate the fruit. But he lived for 930 years. That is not the same day. Solution: Adam died SPIRITUALLY on the day that he ate the fruit. He became a sinner. 2. Death entered the world through sin. But why would that necessarily be a consequence? It doesn't follow logically, and it seems unfair to all the other animals who don't sin. Why not apply it only to humans? Solution: *Spiritual death* entered the world through sin. Sinners (humans) deserve spiritual death because they have sinned against God. Animals haven't sinned and thus will not receive spiritual death. 3. God sends EVERYONE to hell except for those who believe in Jesus. This creates problems for those who have never heard. It's an uphill battle to say that those who have never heard the gospel can avoid eternal punishment in hell. And even if it's the case that they won't be punished in hell, doesn't that give us Christians an incentive to make sure NO ONE hears the gospel? After all, it is objectively and infinitely better for someone to go to heaven than to be eternally tortured, especially if they hadn't heard the gospel. Keeping the gospel a secret from future generations seems to be the ONLY moral choice here. Solution: If hell is simply your soul's death, then there is no moral problem for those who haven't heard the gospel. They won't receive the gift of salvation, but they won't suffer eternally for something they can't control either.
How can annihilationism be true if the unsaved are in eternal torment? #2. Death entering the world and coming to all "men" (not the animals Rom 5:12) and becoming a consequence of sin follows logically if God chooses to make it so. God wants man to choose to be reconciled back to God. Animals were dying for hundreds of millions of years before man sinned. Animals cannot suffer spiritual death. They are the soulish (nephesh) creatures but not spiritual (ruach) as humans are. #3. Those who never heard will be judged according to the light they are given (Psa 19:1-4 & Rom 1:20). Also, no one in the OT believed in Jesus because Jesus had not yet arrived. People, like Abraham, were saved by their faith. God would know who would embrace the gospel offer if they did hear it. Also, no one is eternally "tortured" in hell. They are in eternal "torment". You don't seem to be taking into account that soul and spirit are different. People in English speaking countries seem to mash the two words together to mean the same thing. That is not the case in the Hebrew or Greek. The soul is our physical reactive nature which the animals also have. The spirit is our non-physical reflective nature. Biblically, a spiritual nature is not shown to be given to the animals. The word "death" in the Biblical languages is symbolic of "separation", just as "asleep" is symbolic of physical death. Solution: those going to hell are going by their own rebellion of God and God sees to their choice.
I’m currently leaning more towards annihilationism too! Cuz it really makes more sense to why are we here. If eternal conscious torment (ECT) is true, I rather God not create any being since he doesn’t require us at all. But ECT have some scriptures to support too, like undying worm, smoke of torment rise forever, no rest day and night etc…. How do u deal with it?
Heaven (biblical) is the period of crop production and harvest. For the northern hemisphere, this is symboled as beginning at the spring equinox and ending at the autumn equinox (this is the six "days" in Genesis one) and the signs are Aries thru Virgo. Hell (Sheol) is symboled as beginning at the autumn equinox and ending at the spring equinox (this is the six "nights" in Genesis one) and the signs are Libra thru Pisces. This is only the basic division of the year/world/generation and is constantly modified. Libra (Saturn Day) was moved above to join Aries thru Libra and became the Arc/Ark of the Covenant with "God." This sacred seven is found in many tales. This left Scorpio through Pisces symboling the evil season of winter aka sether (666). See Rev. 9.5, where the scorpion (Scorpio constellation) is the leader of the five months that can harm man (cold/hunger/darkness/sickness/etc....). This scorpion in Rev 9.5, leads Sagittarius, Capricorn, Aquarius, and Pisces. One Roman calendar has Pisces as the last month of the year (sacred). This sign was depicted as having forty days (Lent) that leads us the the pass over from winter to spring. February was the month of purification. Another calendar depicts the year divided into the trinity of winter (Sagittarius - Pisces), spring (Aries - Cancer), and summer (Leo - Scorpio). All three of these seasons begins with Jupiter/Fire (Sun). This trinity is aka Vishnu, Brahma, and Siva. An excellent example is Isaiah 9.14-15, where Israel (summer) is depicted as having the head of the noble/royal lion (Leo) and tail of the liar (Scorpio). The "historical" Israel is made up of Leo, Virgo, Libra, and Scorpio.
@@kai_553 There are annihilationist articles you can read about those. It's hard for me to understand them (I just read them), but it could be just because I woke up not too long ago. RethinkingHell says (paraphrasing and summarizing): 1. Undying worm refers to the maggots which consume the corpses of the wicked. The maggots do not die, but this does not mean that those who inhabit the corpses will not die. It's an allusion to the Old Testament. 2. The smoke of torment rising forever is an allusion to the book of Isaiah. In Isaiah 34:9-10, he wrote that the smoke of the Kingdom of Edom will go up forever. But clearly this couldn't have been "literally forever" because we would be able to still see the smoke of Edom TODAY. It more likely means that the destruction of Edom is forever-lasting, a one-and-done deal. And that works well with annihilationism.
God is sovereign. He is in control and has all the power. Some will struggle with this next fact. If God is sovereign, and He is, then evil comes from Him. Voddie Baucham and John MacArthur explain this far better than I can but God looks at a full picture and we can't know what His plans are. He has the right to send everyone to hell but He chooses to grant grace to His choosen. Why does He do this for some and not all? He has that right for He is creator. You either have faith or you do not. I don't need to be told why I need to believe the bible. I enjoy listening to why it is fact but I never needed it when He decided to save me. All of Him and none of me. All I bring to the table is my sin.
If people really thought that the parts of life that sucked outweighed the good parts then they would just off themselves. That is still a tiny percentage of people that do that so obviously the questioner's very first comment is wrong.
I find it funny how much people limit God's power to justify him not being evil. As if God couldn't have made a world free of diseases, natural disasters, evil etc; a world just like the heaven he promissed us.
We don’t have to “justify” God not being evil. God is not evil because a human’s subjective and fallible moral standard cannot be used to judge the Creator of the universe. Think of it this way: if you go to someone’s house for dinner, you don’t have the authority to tell them “you have to sit like this; you have to set the table like that.” Why? Because it’s not your house. The universe is God’s territory, not ours, so we don’t have the authority to make rules and impose them on God. Furthermore, who said God couldn’t create a perfect world?
These discussions often loop into a sort of Platonism: with 'good' and 'evil' as categories taken as independent of Gd; I think the Biblical categories are godly and ungodly. Or 'not-god'. And 'freewill' is not so much the issue, as is that we are in God's image; as it says in Genesis 1, we are like Gd: personal, our actions, and words have real consequences, are thoughts are significant. So, flowing from this, 'free will' is that our choices are significant and affect us and others; that is, being like Gd. God made us to be like him so we could live in connection with him. A&E decided they'd prefer to disconnect and chose the 'not-god' path. God turns that around in his incarnation to rescue us; but most don't want to be rescued but continue in their disregard for the creator. The ultimate point is not the glibly labelled 'heaven' but the New Creation: new heavens and earth. Like this one but indescribably better. Again, the issue of the balance on numbers of those who've excluded themselves from life with God and those who have repented and turned to him is pointless. The locus of the experience of life is the individual; thus one's own plight or benefit is unrelated to the number of individuals that have similar experience.
When you assert that God created man in his image do you mean, ...... with no knowledge of right and wrong ?? 🤔 or did he only only truly reflect _"Gods image"_ AFTER eating of the fruit when he became a "sinner" ?? 🤔 is this why man can be a jealous, genocidal monster at times just like his alleged "creator" ??
My, how very Daoist of you! But that is false. Evil isn't a thing. It's a lack of Good. God who is the definition of Good lacks in nothing and therefore doesn't require evil to exist. My friend, I invite you to learn to know the true God is, how much he loves you, and what he did to save you from the daily evil that you do. Instead of running away from him, get to know him.
@@sidwhiting665 God cannot exist without the existence of Evil. Just as Light cannot exist without the existence of Darkness. I understand that both Evil and Darkness are the lack of Good and Light - which supports my earlier claim. If there is no Darkness then Light is not discernible - same for Good and Evil. If Evil did not exist then Good would not be discernible. And if it were not discernible then it could not be chosen. There would be no option. There is nothing without its opposite. Good and Evil. Light and Dark. And I know without a shadow of any doubt that Jesus is the Christ - the Son of the Eternal God and only by Him, of Him and through Him can we be saved or have hope in any good thing.
@@TheTimologist "Heaven exists within the Universe and there will always be Evil in the Universe." But evil won't exist in heaven, right? So evil need not exist on earth for people to choose good. It seems God ensure there'd be evil in this world since he put Satan in it from the beginning. He could have kept Satan out and then there'd be 'evil somewhere in the universe' and earth could have been heaven like.
Jesus Christ is the way and the truth and the life no one comes to the father but by Jesus. He paid for this world 🌎. He went through a lot for me and I love him. Thank you Lord I am not worthy.
So when did anyone say free will doesn't allow for evil? Lucifer is a testament to how even in a perfect universe, free will can choose evil at any time. If God intervenes, then he removes free will.
@@tTtt-ho3tqthat's what I'm thinking too. We can't sin in heaven, so there is no free will in heaven? If there is free will in heaven where the consequences will be a possibilty of evil, so what's the different between heaven and earth? At the end of the day, God removes people's free will in heaven, why not doing that before He created everything? What's with all these drama?
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I've read in the Bible that most people are going to heaven. *_"For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)"_* -- Romans 5:17. This verse is basically saying that "much more" people will be in heaven than in hell. And Romans 5:15 says something similar; *_"But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many."_*
More people have eternal life than don't.
I need everyone to pray for my mom. Her brain tumor has gotten really bad and I need you to pray for her. She can’t speak well she can barely walk and I need you to help her out. Please I need you to😢
Praying with you. 🙏🏻 Psalm 46:1
🙏🫶🏼
Prayers for healing, comfort, and hope for your mom. Does she know the Lord?
Sorry to hear but she'll have a better outcome knowing NO ONE is parying for her.
You guys don’t need to pray anymore she is in a better place now
God bless you Frank! I learn a lot of this kind of videos... 😊
Very nice and respectable debate ❤
Good questions followed by good answers, thanks!
One can choose the path, not the consequences.
I love how Dr Turek answers questions by asking questions!!
That was really a nice conversation.😊
Ripple was a fortified wine produced by E & J Gallo Winery as a Low end fortified wine that was popular in the United States, particularly in the 1970s.
Nice civilized conversation
Great video as always Frank. God bless!
Jesus explicitly says, "there are few that will enter the kingdom of heaven.." - So while God knew beforehand most would be doomed to hell he still created us. As a believer I still find that hard to understand.
In countries with high infant mortality, people still continue having babies.
Our human existence is more a less a testing ground to see the full character of who we are. We can choose to serve God though honesty, faithfulness, generosity or we can cheat, lie, take from others and indulge in all of the worst aspects of our flesh. The struggle in serving God is setting aside your immediate desires and understanding that life here is nothing compared to the life after.
Love this man God bless him ❤
Wow nice explanation Frank! Love this channel❤! I hope to one day be able to answer with such abilities!
Try drinking ripple.
Frank, your logic based on Grace vs Justice was right on the mark. Does cause one to ponder carefully what one thinks & believes. Let’s pray that God will illuminate the minds of these questioners & they come to know the saving Grace of God.
Definitely sadistic. Funny how an all loving god dispenses so much of that justice rather than so much of that mercy.
Funny how an all powerful god can’t figure out how to get more people into heaven. What a loser
His mercy endures forever proclaimed over 30xs in the scriptures
@@dallas1891He has given us all option into heaven. You must remember we have sinned against God. He have broken his laws so why would he allow us into his home without some form of redemption?that's where Christ comes into play, he paid for the price for our sins and can forgive us. Therefore giving us grace and giving us the chance to enter heaven
@@dallas1891 oh, but he's not a loser, and can indeed figure out that.
It's just he WON'T, because he's not loving. He's a lovecraftian horror and we are his playthings.
I wonder if he knows how diamonds are made, extreme pressures and extreme Heat, and look at the beauty it creates. The process might be very unpleasant I know all too well, but we know all things work together for good for those who love Christ and are called according to HIS purpose
Moronic analogy....
Beauty is subjective
Sure - no pain no gain.
But what about an eternal hell? I can understand even millions of years of a hell - but one that NEVER ENDS? There's nothing good that would come out of that.
Unless the rules and conditions for hell are different than what Christianity tells us.
First, we have to prove that hell exists at all. Any takers?
But, what about an eternal choice that yields an eternal consequence?
We don't have to prove hell. Christians didn't come up with that information.
You either believe Christ or you don't.
@@TheGuy.."we don't have to prove hell"
Or god... or the resurrection... or heaven... or demons.. or angels...
Just pretend you know what you clearly do not
The Christian way.
@@mattslater2603 I don't pretend to know, I claim that I believe.
Don't confuse the Christian way with a confused pretender's way. Scripture doesn't require us to "know" but rather to believe (have faith) based on evidence (not proof).
I like Frank's answer.
It is true that you are free to make your choices but not free from the consequences that come from those choices, whether good or bad. Therefore, it's on you what you choose. Think before you do something. Search for truth, and you shall find it, as did C.S. Lewis, Nabeel Kureshi, and others.
Just another example of man's proclivity to place responsibility for personal choices onto God.
Man allowed evil to have dominion in this life when Adam & Eve made the personal chooice to listen to satan over God.
Christ is the Redeemer
If Adam and Eve made the choice for me, then they should be held be accountable. Not me.
@@mattr.1887 Are you saying you've never chosen to do evil? You are being held accountable for your own choices, as are we all.
But that is the upshot of Christianity from the outside. Look at the story. God created the world and put Satan in charge. First...that means Adam's sin didn't introduce sin into the world...God did in the form of his hated nemesis. Satan was sin...the embodiment of sin and he sinned as he lied to Eve. So sin was there before Eve disobeyed. God exposed his newly formed and innocent creation to the wiliest of creatures. He didn't even give Adam and Eve the same option as Satan. Satan rebelled in heaven with NO one tempting him. But God apparently didn't believe/wasn't sure his creation COULD sin on their own, so he put Satan in charge and allowed him access to the humans for a little insurance they'd sin.
And then, their sins didn't just affect them...there was this 'ripple' effect across the natural world and throughout history. But nothing can ripple unless there is something TO ripple IN, some sort of medium created by God to 'carry' a ripple forward and furthermore something has to have been given the potential/capacity to cause a ripple. Waves don't just ripple independently..they are a feature of water. So waves require water. And water doesn't ripple unless acted on by something that can cause ripples, like wind or a stone falling...cause and effect. But wind can't cause water to ripple unless there is friction and unless wind has momentum.
And no causes can exist, no medium can exist but what God created it AND it's properties. IOW if sin caused a ripple, first sin had to be given that potential like wind has momentum and affects water through friction..otherwise would have no affect. So sin has to have momentum, so to speak, and there has to be friction, so to speak, for sin to affect some medium. Then whatever it was that rippled had to have been created by God with the properties that allowed it to ripple after it was affected by sin. So sure, Christians say humans are responsible for their sins...wink wink...but they really know, deep down, that the reason we are sinful is because we're all born sinful (that is what the story in Genesis is all about...why humans are prone to sin if they're made by a good God). And the reason the world is corrupt is because God put Satan in charge and that's why Paul invented the idea that Jesus died on the cross to appease God so we don't have to because rrreeeallllyyyy we just can't help ourselves.
Kiel, of course I've done things I shouldn't have. I'm all in favor of accountability. But the claim is that I was forced to sin because Adam and Eve messed up. If that's what happened, then Adam and Eve are fault.
If on the other hand they had nothing to do with me, that's a different story.
@@mattr.1887 except that’s not the actual claim. You aren’t forced to do anything you do. You choose to behave as you have.
And let’s be honest, we all know it. We all know we as humans make bad choices. I can blame my evil choices on others. If I was abused as a child, I can’t say that me abusing someone else is my parents fault. I still made The choice to do the things I have even if my environment had a factor.
If that’s the argument, then should I ever be held accountable by the law?
Abuse victims that kill people later in life get off scott free?
We have a sin nature in the way that some people have an angry nature. It’s easy for those people to be angry and they often are, but no one argues that they are helpless and FORCED to be angry. They can choose each moment to be angry or not. They should be held accountable to their anger and the things they say and do while angry.
That was a really good question though! I really like the back-and-forth on this one
why God would create us knowing we would disobey him?
well... how many times has your own children disobeyed you during their entire lifetime?
if you could go back in time would you still have kids knowing this?
I'm willing to bet most people would say yes... because of love.
I have a feeling that God would still create humanity even if it meant only ONE person would be saved.
There's a completely different scale in question here. You might change your view if you found yourself in an eternal torture chamber because Christianity was wrong and the real truth was something else.
But first, we have to prove that any of this is even real.
@@sterlingfallsproductions3930 wow resorting to insults already? “When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.”
chill dude its not my fault my comment went way over your head. lol
@@mattr.1887 I have done my investigation already and have a TON of reasons and evidence for why I think Christianity specifically is true and why I came to choose Christianity over all the other religions. Here are a few great sources to start if you are interested.
-"The Christian Difference" written by several authors with a background specialty in each religion.
-"Cold-Case Christianity: A Homicide Detective Investigates the Claims of the Gospels" by J Arner Wallace.
-John Lennox (Mathematician and bioethicist) who was a former Atheist, many books and videos available
-William Lang Craig, philosopher. many books and videos available so take your pick
-"Case for Christ, Case for a Creator, Case for a Savior" by former atheist Lee Strobel who came to Christianity by trying to prove it false.
-pretty much anything from Frank Turek (Cross Examined)
The list goes on but those sources are my favorite.
@@mattr.1887we don't have to prove anything. Either you accept God or you don't simple as that.
@@herrluverr....so just assert nonsense... and that's it?
Lol... okay then.
Your silly supernatural claims are dismissed
The only thing i believe from this guys mouth was..... how do we know that. Exactly! And that's my take on the good book & God. If you've heard one religious debate, you've heard them all.
That's a good explanation and a good question too..
Its a terrible answer tbh.
"In order for God to be proved fair and just before the universe, there are times when He sees that it will be best to allow Satan to have his way in bringing trouble to us for a time.
And often Satan is correct in claiming that we were seeking God only for what we hoped to gain from Him, and that if things were to stop going smoothly, we would stop seeking God."
Quote from "Faith that Works" by Morris L. Venden
I love this Frank. Thank you for all that you do!
Ayeee God bless you my brother! ❤❤❤ God loves you so much!
@@luhgarlicbread you too man
Who doesn't want grace? Unless your blinded by what truth is. (John 14:6) "I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the father but by me."
God gave us the rules to live by and the choice to follow them or not.
Frank is correct here. It is very likely that without suffering and evil, there would be far far fewer beleivers. This is evidenced, for example, by the countless testimonies that exist around the world where the instrumentalisation of suffering was integral to a person's conversion and/or sanctification. If God simply prevented suffering and evil, many of us (probably me included) would have continued living in ours sins.
This becomes much more complex when you think about the ripple effect. For example, the suffering and martyrdom of the disciples has led many people 2000 years later to become convinced that what they were preaching is true, thereby leading them to repentance, salvation and sanctification.
I commend the questioner in the video for being respectful and open to honest discussion.
You cannot seriously believe that if your god showed up tomorrow and abolished even a fraction of the suffering in the world less people would believe in that god.
It could start with something simple, instead of just granting the gift of virtual immunity from cancer to the naked mole rat, extend that gift to human babies.
@@downenout8705 I don't see any good reason to rule out the theodicy I presented, especially given the examples I gave. You suggested that there wouldn't be any less believers if God abolished a fraction of the world's suffering. Well, how do we know how much of an abolition of suffering is required to maintain the number of believers, eventual believers and/or greater goods? And how do we guage how much suffering God *does* actually prevent?
In fact, there have been numerous medically documented miraculous healings in Jesus' name. For example, I encourage you to look into the individual cases of Bruce Van Natta, Greg Spencer, Chris Gunderson, Barbara Snyder, Sister Bernadetta Moriau and Wes Huff. These are only a small number of examples out of many but they do provide powerful evidence
If I were God, there would be no children getting raped. So what does that say about God, and what does that say about me?
If this god came out of hiding, went around actually helping people and also eliminating the diseases it created, that god would win over countless people
@@lawrenceeason8007 Jesus did indeed do that and he won over many Jews. But I don't see how it can be demonstrated that overtly going around healing people would always lead to a maximisation of repentance and salvation. In fact, when Jesus performed miracles, many people became more hostile towards Him. Similarly, when God showed his power in Egypt, Pharaoh became more hostile towards God. Even today we see many atheists who say that they would not repent and become a Christian even if God showed up in their life. In contrast, we see countless testimonies of people coming to Christ because of the suffering they experienced in their life. It's very plausible that without the many sufferings in the world, people would reject God thinking there is no need for Him. Similarly, if God simply healed everyone, we would start taking God's salvation for granted, remaining in our sins and no longer seeking the Good (God)
Did they hire a new editor? Nice graphics!!
Ok. I always love me a good ole Frank Turek video. But can we PLEASE go back to no video edits.
That young guy is correct about most people being destined for hell because all have fallen short; that’s why we need Jesus.
It's ridiculous to see people project their subjective "RIGHT & WRONG" on God, then HATE God for having a different definition. Yet their "mind from matter" worldview leaves them with NO RIGHT to subjectively think they know what is right, unless God gave them a free will to freely choose what is truly right from wrong! Let's pray God saves them from their own illogical thinking. 💜✝️💜
When will these "woke" people actually wake up and see their own self-refuting logic.
@@JoinUsInVRhow do you know what is right and wrong?
Are you saying without the bible, you wouldn’t know what is right and wrong?
@@stevenbatke2475 "Are you saying without the bible, you wouldn’t know what is right and wrong?"
Actually what they're admitting is that they DO have an independent (of God) basis for evaluating good/evil and they USE that basis to conclude God and what he mandates is good. If they really believed they didn't know right from wrong other than due to what God tells them and instills in their hearts, then calling God good would be tantamount to calling a glimy glitches shuker because all glimy glitches are defined as being shuker. IOW all their discussions about God and goodness would be meaningless gibberish. They could certainly have no personal convictions of what is right/wrong because all of their convictions would not be theirs but would have been placed there by God.
@@stevenbatke2475 Fair question.... Did you freely CHOOSE to ask it? I'm ultimately saying either God exists or he doesn't...
If He does NOT exist; then none of us have the ability to CHOOSE and decide what is right or wrong. Because we don't have a mind that can think through things and choose our own outcome between two possible outcomes (choose what is right and wrong).
We just have a "brain" . And that brain was not created by an intelligent mind, but instead by random processes that give us the illusion of intelligence. And that brain is literally constrained to function within the laws of science which state everything must follow those laws perfectly and can NEVER "choose* their outcome.
Therefore, in that no-God world, us humans don't ACTUALLY have the freedom to freely choose anything. Our brains are just BIOLOGICAL CALCULATORS. They are made up of exactly predictable electrical and chemical reactions, that are 100% forced to follow the predefined laws of science.
Reactions CAN'T reason. They can't choose between two possible outcomes. They just blindly follow a predefined process that started all the way back at the Big bang's start of our universe, until now. If that's the case our lack of choice is pointless because life has no meaning at all. So there's no logical reason to choose to love it or live it. IN FACT WITHOUT CHOICE, WE CAN'T EVEN LOVE. It's just artificial chemical reactions in our brain that have no real meaning.
BUT....... IF GOD DOES EXIST, then His intelligent mind is what gave us a FREE WILL to choose. And therefore I can look at all the evidence that points to the reality of God, and freely weigh that evidence and rationalize and choose what I think it points to as the "most reasonable" conclusion. I did that and it clearly points to the fact that it is more reasonable to believe God exists, then to believe the alternative.
For example, mountain of secular and biblical and archaeological evidence that supports the reality of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, demonstrates it's more reasonable to believe He is God, because He controlled life and death exactly as He predicted he would in the historical accounts documented in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
Since He is God, and truly brought everything into existence out of nothing (which breaks all scientific laws, but is what all the scientific evidence points to that as the reality of the start of our universe at the big bang) then His definition of right and wrong within His creation IS the only logical definition of right and wrong for all of creation.
In a world with no God, I have no grounds to say what I think is right, is any more right than Hitler's definition of right. We are both simply randomly created beings, with no real free will, and therefore no real ability to know what is right from wrong. We just know what our random process created biological calculators happen to calculate. And no random process created biological calculator is more "right" then another, when it comes to morality.
Are you following me?
Did I answer your question?
Come look me up and let's talk. It would be much easier than texting in a video comment. I can show you the evidence inside and outside the Bible, and you can evaluate it for yourself, and freely choose what you think is most reasonable to believe the evidence points towards. Assuming you have the ability to freely make a choice, that is 😜
@@stevenbatke2475 The Bible (the Word) is the truth, Jesus is the truth. Not to mention that God put the law in everyone’s heart. Without God no human being could have known what is right and wrong. Grace is what we need if we want to be with God meaning if we want real love, light, truth, faith, and hope in this life.
thanks for the explanation ... these questions hv been bothering me for some time
I'm pleased to hear someone other than myself reference ripple-effect. 👍
This is all speculation, speculation. "Well how do you know it isn't...?" etc.. and then the free will. We are required to make a choice with no opt out possible. How free is that?
People don't "reject" God, they can't bring themselves to believe in a Book that SAYS there's a god , chiefly because the evidence is "hidden", for some reason.
The ripple effect only works if there is something to ripple and if the thing that happens can be transmitted via those ripples. IOW, in a world created entirely by God...there is nothing that happens, 'by chance.' Nothing happens but what it is due to processes/methods/means created by God and God had to also build into the world vulnerabilities so that when the 'ripple' hits something...it reacts or is otherwise affected. And NO, we're not talking about free will. This has nothing to do with one's freedom to sin. This is about the long term effects, the down stream effects, the ancillary effects of that sin. There can be none...no downstream effects except God created the possibility. And since it was design...God intentionally created the world so IF sin happened, then THOSE downstream effects would happen. IOW it wasn't by accident that the world was created vulnerable to sin.
It seems folks want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to contend God not only designed (and design is key) and created the world. He also created every capability and vulnerability. What's more, God continuously holds the world together...so whatever happens...whatever 'ripples' due to God keeping it rippling. Waves 'ripple' on the water due to momentum. Momentum was created by God. Momentum is maintained by God at every moment. If God ceased to support that momentum, the ripples would stop. In like fashion and now we're not talking about water anymore, the ripple effect of sin is due to a medium that ripples...ie something that can carry the effects of sin forward, and the momentum of the ripple in that medium only can continue BECAUSE God holds it together continuously.
@@helpmaboabb No; they choose to reject him. No; you can opt out. No; look up the evidence for yourself; it's right there at your fingertips. 😏
@@sterlingfallsproductions3930 What do you mean 'good in ripples?' If you're talking about situations where someone does a good deed, is kind, etc. and someone experiences the good deed and then does another good deed for someone else...then yes, that is the kind of 'ripple' effect one can understand. But that's NOT what I understand the 'ripple' effect is that he's talking about...if he's basing it on Genesis.
Let's use that example to describe what happened. The serpent lied (sinned) and convinced Eve to sin and she convinced Adam to sin. Those are understandable ripple affects. One can be linked to the other.
But what caused the world to be cursed? What linked Adam and Eve to the natural world itself, to other life forms, and to their children and their children's children? THAT link is NOT automatically part of the ripple effect described above. There is no logical reason for those things to be affected...unless God created the mechanism for it to BE affected. Why would their disobedience cause genetic defects...there's no 'link' between what Adam thought and did with the sperm he hadn't even produced yet that would sire his sons and daughters...there is no automatic way that his thoughts and decisions should cause his cells and body chemistry to be different unless God created that means. Even if they were cast out of an idyllic Garden, there's no reason why things that hadn't come into existence yet would be corrupted by their sin...no direct connection...unless God created that connection. THAT is what the ripple effect means...God created a medium which COULD ripple and gave that medium the properties to carry that ripple forward and also gave sin the power/properties to cause a ripple. All of that had to have been intentionally designed and created by God.
@@johnharrison6745 see original post. You ve changed nothing.
Matthew 7:13 says that “broad is the path that leads to destruction and many will enter thereof”. Does this not indicate that “more” people, than not, will end up in hell?
Sheol usually translated Hell or its equivalent in the Bible is the "under world or subterranean cave" (Gesenius Heb. Lex., p. 1022). Sheol, then, is the earth in winter, when the Sun appears among the southern constellations. This is the true meaning of Sheol, which corresponds to the Hades of the Greeks. "Hades is an intermediate state between death and resurrection” = between death and life; it is the earth's sleep. (See Smith's Bib. Dict., Art. Hell). Sheol includes Limbo, or the border of Hell farthest from the state of bliss = summer, where all of earth who have reaped the fruits.
The gate to Heaven aka spring equinox is guarded by a son of Jupiter aka Perseus. Gad, the tribe assigned to the Ram Constellation is copied from Fortuna, a daughter of Jupiter.
The gate to Hell is the autumn equinox and is left unguarded. There are several calendars used in the bible. One is where "Hell" consists of five signs and a good example is Revelation 9.5. The scorpion (Scorpio constellation) is the leader of Sagittarius (Fire/Jupiter), Capricorn (Earth/Vesta), Aquarius (Air/Juno), and Pisces (Water/Neptune). The three sons of Noah (Earth) are Shem (winter), Japheth (spring), and Ham (summer).
An omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent god should be able to create a being that can have free will without suffering. It's a logical paradox to us humans who live in the real world, but a god that can do anything could solve this problem. What is heaven? Is there free will in heaven?
Anything can happen in fiction
Heaven (biblical) is the period of crop production and harvest. For the northern hemisphere, this is symboled as beginning at the spring equinox and ending at the autumn equinox (this is the six "days" in Genesis one) and the signs are Aries thru Virgo.
Hell (Sheol) is symboled as beginning at the autumn equinox and ending at the spring equinox (this is the six "nights" in Genesis one) and the signs are Libra thru Pisces.
This is only the basic division of the year/world/generation and is constantly modified.
Libra (Saturn Day) was moved above to join Aries thru Libra and became the Arc/Ark of the Covenant with "God." This sacred seven is found in many tales.
This left Scorpio through Pisces symboling the evil season of winter aka sether (666). See Rev. 9.5, where the scorpion (Scorpio constellation) is the leader of the five months that can harm man (cold/hunger/darkness/sickness/etc....).
This scorpion in Rev 9.5, leads Sagittarius, Capricorn, Aquarius, and Pisces.
One Roman calendar has Pisces as the last month of the year (sacred). This sign was depicted as having forty days (Lent) that leads us the the pass over from winter to spring. February was the month of purification.
Another calendar depicts the year divided into the trinity of winter (Sagittarius - Pisces), spring (Aries - Cancer), and summer (Leo - Scorpio). All three of these seasons begins with Jupiter/Fire (Sun). This trinity is aka Vishnu, Brahma, and Siva.
An excellent example is Isaiah 9.14-15, where Israel (summer) is depicted as having the head of the noble/royal lion (Leo) and tail of the liar (Scorpio). The "historical" Israel is made up of Leo, Virgo, Libra, and Scorpio.
If we're to have free will in Heaven, and being proven that with free will sin happens... then Heaven won't last long.
So for Heaven to be eternal, free will must be taken away from us.
Wait a moment... If that's the case, why doesn't God make it right away, and prefers to play sadistic games with us in the meantime?
Amazes me how quickly religious people shift from 'we can't know the mind of God or his plan" on difficult questions, to speaking confidently on his behalf for simple questions.
Only free people can have a choice and we've all chosen evil to some extent. No one wants the ability to choose to be taken away. If it were, we'd charge God with being unjust for not giving us a choice. Evil is here and thrives because we're sinners and we want it.
But free will isn't the issue, is it? It's that humans have a fallen, corrupt nature. And also that God permits Satan to rule the world. Isn't that a bit more than just creating a good world and giving people free will? IOW, if you are basing any of your doctrine on Genesis, then sin was in the world before Eve succumbed to temptation. It was there because God allowed/put it there in the form of the evil serpent who most see as Satan, a fallen angel who rebelled in heaven and took some of the angels with him. IOW, God created Lucifer. Lucifer rebelled and left heaven. But when God created the natural world, he put Lucifer in charge. THAT is different than simply creating a world and giving people a choice.
@@rizdekd3912 As it's written, death entered the world by sin and sin by the fall of Adam and Eve. People not only inherited the sin nature but even the earth was cursed because of Adam. Nothing says otherwise pre Adam and Eve.
Man was given dominion over the earth and they sold it out to Satan when they fell.
I don't know if a person would accuse God of being unjust because if they knew the lack of free will helped them avoid hell, they'd be relieved.
What if I said I want God to choose for me?
@@Mike-ne8eb They can avoid it now through Jesus and most people still reject Him. That's humanity for you.
Thanks CE
Brilliant arguments
Lol...low standards
@matt
You likely didnt even watch the full video.
@@drillyourarguments Nope, just higher standards.
Less tolerance for b.s
The Lord is not willing that any should perish but all come to repentance.
I am a Christian and was asked by my nephew about free will - his question was this - does God know what I will choose? And if God knows what I will choose, then how could it be a free will if He already knows what I will do? Because if He knows what I will choose then my choice is already predetermined... thoughts?
personally... i see things like this.
Just like if you put a ball on a waterslide.. you can guess where it will go.
If you write a program to out put certain responses under certain conditions.. the program will do that.
We as humans can't manufacture thoughts out of thin air that are not put there or are built on previous thoughts or we see something and it gives us an idea.
To make a long story short. If you had a Godlike ability to examine every factor that will influence a person.. you could predict accurately exactly the words they will say even 20 years from now.
This probably doesn't answer your question. Actually i wish i didn't think this way.
Amen
Frank is the Goat 🐐
Talking donkey?
@@25_September if by goat you mean foolish and stubborn yes he is.
GOD allows evil to happen because of free will. Yes their choices ripple and affect others.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil
Free will isn't logically compatible with the Christian God.
@@Gek1177 thank you for your opinion
@@larzman651you are welcome though it's not an opinion it's a fact.
@@Gek1177
You're deluded, a liar and a coward.
@@Gek1177 thank you for your opinion
There is no such as "evil".
There also is no such as a interfering god in this world.
How old are you?
How would we know Good if we didn’t experience evil? 😊❤
Sometimes I wonder if not existing/experiencing anything in the first place is truly a bliss...
We also wouldn't be able to call anything evil if there weren't an absolute good to compare it to.
Another human thinking he knows better than God how things should be.
He was simply asking questions.
You mean Frank?
@@mattr.1887 no, like you people from the Twilight Zone.
@@chloemartel9927wouldn't the twilight zone have things like hordes of zombies... and talking animals?
Oh wait... that's the bible.
Lol.
@@mattr.1887Lol. Perfect.
I have a question! Why did God feel a need to make a world to worship him? Isn't that kind of narcisistic? I feel awkward if someone sings me happy birthday, so the idea of creating people with their sole purprose to worship me feels insane. Why does he need us to worship and love him?
Then tell people not to sing happy birthday to you anymore.
@@rebeccablackburn9487 Rarely a thing in Sweden, the point being, the Christian deity is a raging narcisist if he feels like he needshis most important creation to worship everything about him
God tortures and kills even his worshippers, so it can't be a God of love. He's a lovecraftian horror.
Free will, but threats still undermine
Free will god doesn't do evil never
I think the observers in the show Fringe are another great way to demonstrate the ripple effect. They were beings outside time that typically only observed, but could also make slight changes that then had bigger and bigger effects in the world. I believe God operates on a more grand scale than even that of the observers.
If it's your choice, then hell isn't punishment is the outcome of your choice.
Thank you so much. I never knew that there were different levels of punishment for people. I has to read luke 12 multiple times to understand that. So this video caused me to do that. Thank you. :)
I'm confused, where does it talk about different levels of punishment for people in Luke 12? I tried reading myself but don't understand.
@BaJanglesMcHumpry
Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
In verse 47, it said that the guy who knew his lord's will, but didn't do it will be punished with many stripes. But the one who didn't know but still did evil will still get published, but with fewer stripes. Which means those who go to hell won't suffer the same as others.
@@dreadGodshand thank you for providing the verse. God bless
From a spiritual perspective, God is the Perfect Gentleman. He will always give a person, family, and society what they ask for. If we are going to define "good" as getting everything you want and experiencing everything you want (as the spirit of the age says), then God is simply playing by the rules of the world and showing Himself to be perfectly "loving."
So if you don't want anything to do with Him, if you want to spit in God's face and flip the bird at him, then that is fine with Him. Go your own way. He will let you.
We were not designed to live apart from God. So, I don't see the consequences of someone's using their free will to choose to be separate from God as a "punishment", but rather a result of the choices they made.
You would first have to prove that a God exists ?
All I hear are claims zero evidence .
As much as we can say "why is there evil?" , most of us wouldn't know happiness without adversity.
Of course things like murder, r@pe, robbing, etc. are totally awful in every way, most of us would hate a world where everything went perfect all the time.
No one wants to watch a movie where everything goes perfectly for the characters with no type of challenge.
The reason I don't like a lot of Christian movies, is because many can be quite dishonest about human emotion and experience. Many are great because they understand needing something to overcome.
Doesn't mean we should welcome evil, it just means we should find life in going against it
You reap what you sow
Romans 8:28 KJV
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Simple answer
What version of "bible" is Frank talking about with Adolf is in the book of LUKE?
He never said Luke mentions Hitler. What Frank said is that Luke 12 contains the idea that some people will be punished more than others. Jesus mentions it specifically in verses 47-48.
Why does it have to be a majority that are saved? Somehow he has to find a way for good to outweigh the bad
The ripple effect argument sounds comforting and logical, but it can be used both ways, so it really isnt worth much. A meaningsless horrible event cant just as well ripple effect into another horrible event.
So the argument that is often used is that "Moral Absolutes" prove the existence of God. Then in the same breath, God can break those absolutes for his own purposes and it is a good thing...a good ripple effect. God can test and destroy a loyal Job because the Devil wants proof and then give him back another family and everything is hunky dory.
What a load.
Isn't it interesting that the same people who criticize God for allowing evil are the ones that either commit evil and perversion or excuse it in others.
How telling that if Christian soteriology is correct the most important factor that differentiates those deserving eternal paradise and those deserving eternal torment is the geographical location one is born into.
If one is born in Saudi Arabia there is about a 95% chance that you will belive in the "wrong" God and reject jesus and thus receive eternal damnation in a lake of fire. However be born into America and magically there is about a 95% chance that you will believe in the "right" God and thus receive eternal salvation. 👏👏
Allegedly this is the justice of a perfect omnibenevolent omnipotent omniscient loving God. The fact that many people who reject jesus often lead devout pious lives and follow very strict and demanding religious practices with regards to worship, diet, clothing and relationships is not a factor, these people seemingly reject jesus because they *"want to sin"* 🤔🤫 Some live lives of isolation and quiet contemplation taking vows of celibacy and silence but the loving jesus still deems these people unworthy of anything other than eternal torment.
Conversely however a murderer so long as he truly repents and accepts Jesus on his death bed he can spend an eternity in paradise with those he murdered. Unless of course those people also found the "evidence" for your God unconvincing, in which case the murderer would be looking down from paradise on the people he killed as they too suffered for eternity with me 😡
We could debate semantics all we want about why evil exists, but our brains can’t understand God’s perfect morality. We can’t fathom it, nor attain it. All we can do is use the “problem of evil” as a proof for God’s existence, because if it weren’t for a perfect ideal we’d have nothing to compare or contrast ourselves to. And if that’s the case, which it would have to be, then that perfect ideal has to be God. Regardless of your faith, if you don’t believe especially- and you have a problem with evil, then I think you should take it upon yourself to alleviate the suffering of others wherever you may find it.
Leviticus 26:14-17 NIV
[14] “ ‘But if you will not listen to me and carry out all these commands, [15] and if you reject my decrees and abhor my laws and fail to carry out all my commands and so violate my covenant, [16] then I will do this to you: I will bring on you sudden terror, wasting diseases and fever that will destroy your sight and sap your strength. You will plant seed in vain, because your enemies will eat it. [17] I will set my face against you so that you will be defeated by your enemies; those who hate you will rule over you, and you will flee even when no one is pursuing you.
Leviticus 26:21-22
[21] “ ‘If you remain hostile toward me and refuse to listen to me, I will multiply your afflictions seven times over, as your sins deserve. [22] I will send wild animals against you, and they will rob you of your children, destroy your cattle and make you so few in number that your roads will be deserted.
Leviticus 26:27-29 NIV
[27] “ ‘If in spite of this you still do not listen to me but continue to be hostile toward me, [28] then in my anger I will be hostile toward you, and I myself will punish you for your sins seven times over. [29] You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters.
So much for free will. Sounds more like an ultimatum
OK, I find the extra video add ins are annoying. I'm sure you spent a lot of time finding those and adding them in, but for me they are distraction.
So i have a question then..... would both the unbeliever and hitler both be in the lake of fire?
Its unreal how prepared Frank is.
Hardly unreal. All he does is say god's will is unknowable whenever he's asked a question that points out a contradiction. He'd make a great used car salesman.
@@jonsoule7421 You are claiming that "whenever he is asked a question he just says it is God's will"? I just saw a video where someone said it was a contradiction between the accounts of Jesus's resurrection. He answered by saying that it was different perspective, and that if police are given two testimonies that are too similar they think that you are lying. So the different perspective further prove in the eye witness accounts. That right there is an answer he gave, where he didn't say "its God's will". So no, he doesn't always say that.
also, utilitarianism is a worldly idea based on finite resources. An infinite everlasting God capable of all of creation is not limited.
Like God is the Universe.
Is me wanting to be a furry in heaven or here on earth a selfish desire?
oh my the wisdom
Where?
@@mattslater2603 Everywhere
@@laquan3661 Well, do you mean in revolting 2 Samuel 24?
Or - in reprehensible, Leviticus 25:46?
Perhaps also, when Augustine was running his mouth off, with ideas about 'typoi' kinds of inherent Jewish guilt, too? As regards the crucifixion.
Sheol usually translated Hell or its equivalent in the Bible is the "under world or subterranean cave" (Gesenius Heb. Lex., p. 1022). Sheol, then, is the earth in winter, when the Sun appears among the southern constellations. This is the true meaning of Sheol, which corresponds to the Hades of the Greeks. "Hades is an intermediate state between death and resurrection” = between death and life; it is the earth's sleep. (See Smith's Bib. Dict., Art. Hell). Sheol includes Limbo, or the border of Hell farthest from the state of bliss = summer, where all of earth who have reaped the fruits.
The gate to Heaven aka spring equinox is guarded by a son of Jupiter aka Perseus. Gad, the tribe assigned to the Ram Constellation is copied from Fortuna, a daughter of Jupiter.
The gate to Hell is the autumn equinox and is left unguarded. There are several calendars used in the bible. One is where "Hell" consists of five signs and a good example is Revelation 9.5. The scorpion (Scorpio constellation) is the leader of Sagittarius (Fire/Jupiter), Capricorn (Earth/Vesta), Aquarius (Air/Juno), and Pisces (Water/Neptune). The three sons of Noah (Earth) are Shem (winter), Japheth (spring), and Ham (summer).
The three baptisms of Earth are Water (winter), Air (spring), and Fire (summer). The 12 signs make up the body of man (everyone) with the Ram as the head and the Fishes as the feet.
How do you reconcile this with Jesus's teaching in Matthew:
Matthew 7:13-14 ESV - “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
Reconcile what with those verses?
Easily. Matthew 7 is an invitation to choose to follow Jesus to life and the goodness of God. A choice we all get to make.
@festushaggen2563 "a choice we all get to make"
Nope, wrong
There are people who love and die without ever being made aware of the silly supernatural claims of Christianity.
Do you ever think anything through?
@@mattslater2603 Those people either WILL get to make choice (after "life"); demonstrated by their lives that they WOULD have chosen him directly if they'd been presented with the choice directly, or, are people whom god knew would reject him no matter what [OR were 'just animals', like the before-Adam h. sapiens were], and, therefore, don't matter. 😏
What if they hear the wrong version of Christianity? Or they get insufficient information?
Or maybe they accept God and morality, but they aren't convinced the entire Bible is inerrant?
I allow it...because TRUTHFULL RESPONSIBILITY COMES WITH ALL THOUGHTS, PRONOUNS AND DEEDS.
HOW ELSE TO BE FREE ?
YIS-YA... the one many call Jesus Christ and GOD.
I like Franks teaching...IF the majority Reject grace His love Jesus...and the majority choose evil instead...thats justice. Now look at Gods actions..in the days of Noah the world was Full of immorality and sin..only Noah and his family were spared they in Gods eyes were righteous. Now if God wanted He could have destroyed or erased planet earth...But He didn’t He saw Noah's obedience. It Amazes me what God does when theres only One or two souls but their obedience their love for God...moves the Lord. He would save those little few in the mist of multitudes that choose evil.
If a being could see the future and see that some would become evil so then he never creates them then how could he have ever seen their future if he was never going to create them see the dilemma?
For an omniscient and omnipotent being, I don't see how this would present a problem.
@@mattr.1887 That's my point God would have to create everyone in order to see their future from the past otherwise their wouldn't be anything to see.
@@muppetonmedsso you're saying God can't see possible futures until after he creates something.
So he created the universe blind?
@@Gek1177 No because he seen he was going to create it and therefore seen its future also. Before the beginning of anything. I know this is hard to follow TC.
@@muppetonmeds so you just contradicted yourself. God doesn't have to create anything to see it's future.
Jesus said it is a narrow gate that few will find. That means less people recive gracious mercy then those who receive judgment and wrath.
I think is so sad how people always want to use the "God is condemning us" argument. no he's not. you condemn yourself by choosing to reject the gift of grace he is freely offering you and to live out eternity without him.
if God is a good god and does all out of love and to be with him would provide you with ultimate and ever lasting joy, peace and happiness then if you chose to walk away from him coz whatever reason where would that put you logically? in a place where love, Joy, peace and happiness are absent which is what hell is a place of pain and suffering. and what's worse you will realize what you lost and suffer with regret for all eternity on top of it all.
Lol what utter piffle, lol what utter piffle, BELIEF is NOT *"CHOICE"* or a mere act of volition. Sure someone can pretend to believe anything but the things one actually believe are not something you choose they are an involuntary response to one's level of information and understanding of their environment. You are either convinced or you are unconvinced and its EVIDENCE that convinces.
I could not just make myself believe in pixies no matter how much I closed my eyes and stamped my feet. Anymore than you could right now "choose" to be convinced that God is not real or that the laws of gravity don't apply to you if you step off that cliff.
Tell me could you genuinely "choose" to believe the internet does not exist and we are not having this discourse now ?? I'm talking about being CONVINCED of it bud not just pretending!! Give me an honest answer , could you right now "Choose" to believe in Thor or Zeus ??? 🤔 No of course not, for exactly the same reason I can't choose to believe in Yahweh.
Now if I recieved some irrefutable knowledge or evidence then I would have no "choice" but to believe, I would have to deny my own reasoning and senses. That what changes beliefs, not "choice"
If you came home and found your spouse in bed with the neighbour, could you just "CHOOSE" to believe in his fidelity and go back downstairs to make him a nice cup of tea ?? 🤣😅🤣
@@trumpbellend6717 I didn't say choice doesn't come with evidence.
But if you bother to look at the evidence PROPERLY and without being biased you might see something in it that would convince you that between the two CHOICES of what you currently believe in and what the bible teaches is better. that's what it means to chose.
@@amandanield5380
// "I didn't say choice doesn't come with evidence" //
Lol Christianity like all religions demands we believe on "faith" because we have insufficient evidence to justify belief in the extraordinary supernatural claims religions assert to be fact.
Not just that but we have vast amounts of evidence that entirely conflicts with the biblical narrative. The evidence indicates that a snake has always lacked both the cognitive abilities and vocal chords required for speech as has a donkey. 😂😂😂 A man can NOT live in a "great fish", tribes of giants did NOT once inhabit the middle east along with witches demons, angel's, zombie's, demigod ect 😂🤣😅
The earth is NOT covered in a crystalline dome ( firmament ) that "keeps the waters out" nor does it have windows in it to "let the rain in" 😂😂 It does NOT contain both the sun and moon along with all the stars that the bible says can "fall to earth" ( most stars are many thousands of times bigger than the earth ) 😂😂😂😂
Man origins do NOT lie in a mud figurine instantly becoming a living breathing man and a rib becoming a woman only a few thousand years ago at the behest of a magical invisible being who thinks it moral to execute our unruly rebellious children who disobey their parents ( sounds like most teenagers to me ) 🤭
But hey if you disagree we could take turns presenting our testable, predictable, observable, falsefiable, peer reviewed evidence FOR our respective positions
@@amandanield5380 Erm, no, that's probably still not going to happen.
I know Leviticus 25:46, is evil. And 2 Samuel 24, and also 2 Samuel 12:18.
As well, as Deuteronomy 21:11, or Numbers 21:6.
I know this very innately. At most, they are necessary evils.
But they will never, be outright good. If it's good for, say, one man to die, for gathering wood on Sabbath...
Or two men, for offering 'strange fire', or for a whole family to be... stoned, then burned, for hiding Jericho loot...
Then it is at least as good, if not more so: to rescue many people from slavery within Christendom.
Or abuses... or needless, sectarian wars; and an Inquisition. Hopefully, it is even more good, than the above.
Yet evidently, this was not made an urgent, divine priority. Even as trading of slaves, went on for three centuries, or so.
So - did medieval Jews, get grace? Or understand it? How about Africans... told many withering, inept lectures about the 'curse of Ham' or similar? And what of gay people, too?
And can you freely choose, to leave friends... faith... family, or a lover... for a new belief?
Without any reservations, looking back (ala Lot's wife) or grief? Or feeling no duress, too.
Also - see Romans 8:30, too? Whilst Paul can certainly be said, many feel - to have had some bias, when drafting Romans 1. Including a bias of what he thought went through people's heads, often.
If God created everything he created everything that could become evil
there is no free will, all predetermined, the extreme of how many percent of people into hell, is always unacceptable. if you believe all humanity is good, all go to heaven no matter Jesus's case or not. but due to the moral judgment we have on humanity's good and evils, we create hell for some people, including Christian god moral standards,
We're all going to receive justice when our time here is done, because it's still justice for a faithful follower of Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior to be forgiven for their sins based on Christ's redemptive works for them and their related relationship with Jesus because of them.
Redemption is the justice that the Lord's mercy towards us (on and beyond the cross) desires, but if we reject Him along with that then we will receive the justice of His wrath which He does not desire.
The Lord takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked but rather in their conversion.
So, we all receive justice in the end, it's just a matter of whether or not that's positive or negative based on how we do it do not live for Jesus.
In Christ,
Andrew
Reminds me of Romans
”And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all-how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died-more than that, who was raised to life-is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: “For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.“ Romans 8:28-39
Hey Frank? What did you fly in the Navy?
Frank, do not all things exist in the mind of God? Nothing exists apart from him, to be separate from him would be to not exist, so how does evil exist if all things are a part of him and in him there is no evil?
We are in the time of grace through Jesus christ... after the rapture grace done... so people who accept Jesus during this time will be save from the rapture... but there is a white throne judgment that all will face... these are two separate events... I believe who don't accept GOD now will have to answer for their decisions and may get and opportunity to exist...
Sheol usually translated Hell or its equivalent in the Bible is the "under world or subterranean cave" (Gesenius Heb. Lex., p. 1022). Sheol, then, is the earth in winter, when the Sun appears among the southern constellations. This is the true meaning of Sheol, which corresponds to the Hades of the Greeks. "Hades is an intermediate state between death and resurrection” = between death and life; it is the earth's sleep. (See Smith's Bib. Dict., Art. Hell). Sheol includes Limbo, or the border of Hell farthest from the state of bliss = summer, where all of earth who have reaped the fruits.
The gate to Heaven aka spring equinox is guarded by a son of Jupiter aka Perseus. Gad, the tribe assigned to the Ram Constellation is copied from Fortuna, a daughter of Jupiter.
The gate to Hell is the autumn equinox and is left unguarded. There are several calendars used in the bible. One is where "Hell" consists of five signs and a good example is Revelation 9.5. The scorpion (Scorpio constellation) is the leader of Sagittarius (Fire/Jupiter), Capricorn (Earth/Vesta), Aquarius (Air/Juno), and Pisces (Water/Neptune). The three sons of Noah (Earth) are Shem (winter), Japheth (spring), and Ham (summer).
The three baptisms of Earth are Water (winter), Air (spring), and Fire (summer). The 12 signs make up the body of man (everyone) with the Ram as the head and the Fishes as the feet.
Praise God🙌🏽 that was brilliant.
I thought he was going to ask "What is a woman?"
💞
0:53 the bible says most people are going to hell
If all those generations of believers hadn’t been wrong in their belief, we wouldn’t have the opportunity to appreciate what Jesus did for us.
And, we wouldn’t have the need to feel we are the moral standard. Disrespect for life is a privilege, and we should thank God for that freedom.
The Butterfly Effect
But even butterflies have to have air to fly in. And that air has to have properties that support their flight. There are a host of things that had to be designed, created and maintained before sin could have a 'down stream' 'rippling' effect. Consider that.
He forced Jonah!
The edits, make sure to pay the editors
Franks answers to Coles questions are in my opinion bordering on ridiculousness.
1. Frank starts off asking how we know that most people will be going to hell, but doesn't refute it. We do know for a fact that most of earths population throughout time and up to present are not Christian, and even the ones who claim they are are probably in name only. You do the math.
2. Frank asserts that "how do you know that the evil that occurs in this world now may have good effects later in this world. I would say how would Frank possibly know that, and even if true does it justify the evil happening now? You can say all you want that the child who is dying from a brain eating amoeba will bring good to the world later on, but I say that is B.S.
3. Frank claims that God is outside of space and time so has the ability to trace all the ripple affects such as the child dying from a brain eating amoeba. Where did Frank pull that little gem out of?
4. Frank asks why are you assuming there is a moral standard judging what God does right. I think a thinking human being has the right to try to figure stuff out and judge what a hypothetical Christian God supposedly says in the Bible is fair ground. If such a supposed God takes offence to that, then he shouldn't have given us such good brains.
5. Frank gives the Robot analogy about why he didn't create all good people, which I find ridiculous. If evil exists in heaven then is everyone in heaven a robot? Free-will on many other levels already doesn't make sense. For example: If Frank was born in Pakistan, or Afghanistan, then he would probably be doing apologetics for Allah. If Frank was born in Thailand, he would probably be practicing Buddhism, or if Frank was born in Rome he would probably be a practicing Catholic. It Seems like man created God in his image, many gods in fact. Indoctrination more than reality seems to influence a person's "Choice" of religion. Some choice.
6. Frank say's that God is not a utilitarian God, Frank continues to say that utilitarian is doing whatever is the most good for the most people, and that would be smuggling in a moral law. I say that smuggling in some moral laws into the Christian religion has done a world of good. For example: The biblical advice that you should not beat your slaves so that they would die within a day or two, was finally destined to the scrap heap in most Christian churches, and the majority of Christians finally realized that slavery was evil and should be abolished. I'm glad that moral was smuggled in, as well as many more.
7. Frank tells Cole that he believes that God punishes everyone differently. Does this mean that hell isn't hell? Eternal damnation is different for everyone? Where did Frank pull this Gem from?
8. Frank claims that in the afterlife nobody gets a raw deal. So a finite crime deserves infinite punishment is not a raw deal?
9. Frank asks if you would rather have grace, or justice. How about a non interference clause where we are born and then die, then it is as it was before. Fortunately that is reality.
For those who question the goodness of God for sending unbelievers to eternal hell:
Research annihilationism: the belief that spiritual death (which comes from sin) is simply that: your spirit/soul dies. That's what hell is. You no longer exist.
If annihilationism is true, then now the Bible makes more sense.
1. God said Adam would die on the DAY that he ate the fruit. But he lived for 930 years. That is not the same day.
Solution: Adam died SPIRITUALLY on the day that he ate the fruit. He became a sinner.
2. Death entered the world through sin. But why would that necessarily be a consequence? It doesn't follow logically, and it seems unfair to all the other animals who don't sin. Why not apply it only to humans?
Solution: *Spiritual death* entered the world through sin. Sinners (humans) deserve spiritual death because they have sinned against God. Animals haven't sinned and thus will not receive spiritual death.
3. God sends EVERYONE to hell except for those who believe in Jesus. This creates problems for those who have never heard. It's an uphill battle to say that those who have never heard the gospel can avoid eternal punishment in hell. And even if it's the case that they won't be punished in hell, doesn't that give us Christians an incentive to make sure NO ONE hears the gospel? After all, it is objectively and infinitely better for someone to go to heaven than to be eternally tortured, especially if they hadn't heard the gospel. Keeping the gospel a secret from future generations seems to be the ONLY moral choice here.
Solution: If hell is simply your soul's death, then there is no moral problem for those who haven't heard the gospel. They won't receive the gift of salvation, but they won't suffer eternally for something they can't control either.
How can annihilationism be true if the unsaved are in eternal torment?
#2. Death entering the world and coming to all "men" (not the animals Rom 5:12) and becoming a consequence of sin follows logically if God chooses to make it so. God wants man to choose to be reconciled back to God.
Animals were dying for hundreds of millions of years before man sinned. Animals cannot suffer spiritual death. They are the soulish (nephesh) creatures but not spiritual (ruach) as humans are.
#3. Those who never heard will be judged according to the light they are given (Psa 19:1-4 & Rom 1:20). Also, no one in the OT believed in Jesus because Jesus had not yet arrived. People, like Abraham, were saved by their faith. God would know who would embrace the gospel offer if they did hear it.
Also, no one is eternally "tortured" in hell. They are in eternal "torment".
You don't seem to be taking into account that soul and spirit are different. People in English speaking countries seem to mash the two words together to mean the same thing. That is not the case in the Hebrew or Greek.
The soul is our physical reactive nature which the animals also have. The spirit is our non-physical reflective nature. Biblically, a spiritual nature is not shown to be given to the animals.
The word "death" in the Biblical languages is symbolic of "separation", just as "asleep" is symbolic of physical death.
Solution: those going to hell are going by their own rebellion of God and God sees to their choice.
I’m currently leaning more towards annihilationism too! Cuz it really makes more sense to why are we here. If eternal conscious torment (ECT) is true, I rather God not create any being since he doesn’t require us at all. But ECT have some scriptures to support too, like undying worm, smoke of torment rise forever, no rest day and night etc…. How do u deal with it?
Heaven (biblical) is the period of crop production and harvest. For the northern hemisphere, this is symboled as beginning at the spring equinox and ending at the autumn equinox (this is the six "days" in Genesis one) and the signs are Aries thru Virgo.
Hell (Sheol) is symboled as beginning at the autumn equinox and ending at the spring equinox (this is the six "nights" in Genesis one) and the signs are Libra thru Pisces.
This is only the basic division of the year/world/generation and is constantly modified.
Libra (Saturn Day) was moved above to join Aries thru Libra and became the Arc/Ark of the Covenant with "God." This sacred seven is found in many tales.
This left Scorpio through Pisces symboling the evil season of winter aka sether (666). See Rev. 9.5, where the scorpion (Scorpio constellation) is the leader of the five months that can harm man (cold/hunger/darkness/sickness/etc....).
This scorpion in Rev 9.5, leads Sagittarius, Capricorn, Aquarius, and Pisces.
One Roman calendar has Pisces as the last month of the year (sacred). This sign was depicted as having forty days (Lent) that leads us the the pass over from winter to spring. February was the month of purification.
Another calendar depicts the year divided into the trinity of winter (Sagittarius - Pisces), spring (Aries - Cancer), and summer (Leo - Scorpio). All three of these seasons begins with Jupiter/Fire (Sun). This trinity is aka Vishnu, Brahma, and Siva.
An excellent example is Isaiah 9.14-15, where Israel (summer) is depicted as having the head of the noble/royal lion (Leo) and tail of the liar (Scorpio). The "historical" Israel is made up of Leo, Virgo, Libra, and Scorpio.
@@kai_553 There are annihilationist articles you can read about those. It's hard for me to understand them (I just read them), but it could be just because I woke up not too long ago.
RethinkingHell says (paraphrasing and summarizing):
1. Undying worm refers to the maggots which consume the corpses of the wicked. The maggots do not die, but this does not mean that those who inhabit the corpses will not die. It's an allusion to the Old Testament.
2. The smoke of torment rising forever is an allusion to the book of Isaiah. In Isaiah 34:9-10, he wrote that the smoke of the Kingdom of Edom will go up forever. But clearly this couldn't have been "literally forever" because we would be able to still see the smoke of Edom TODAY. It more likely means that the destruction of Edom is forever-lasting, a one-and-done deal. And that works well with annihilationism.
@@unsightedmetal6857 thanks mate!
God is sovereign. He is in control and has all the power. Some will struggle with this next fact. If God is sovereign, and He is, then evil comes from Him. Voddie Baucham and John MacArthur explain this far better than I can but God looks at a full picture and we can't know what His plans are. He has the right to send everyone to hell but He chooses to grant grace to His choosen. Why does He do this for some and not all? He has that right for He is creator. You either have faith or you do not. I don't need to be told why I need to believe the bible. I enjoy listening to why it is fact but I never needed it when He decided to save me. All of Him and none of me. All I bring to the table is my sin.
If people really thought that the parts of life that sucked outweighed the good parts then they would just off themselves. That is still a tiny percentage of people that do that so obviously the questioner's very first comment is wrong.
I find it funny how much people limit God's power to justify him not being evil. As if God couldn't have made a world free of diseases, natural disasters, evil etc; a world just like the heaven he promissed us.
We don’t have to “justify” God not being evil. God is not evil because a human’s subjective and fallible moral standard cannot be used to judge the Creator of the universe.
Think of it this way: if you go to someone’s house for dinner, you don’t have the authority to tell them “you have to sit like this; you have to set the table like that.” Why? Because it’s not your house. The universe is God’s territory, not ours, so we don’t have the authority to make rules and impose them on God.
Furthermore, who said God couldn’t create a perfect world?
@bunbacheso You didn't answer my comment at all. You're talking about a totally different subject. God made everything as it is, so YES he is evil.
These discussions often loop into a sort of Platonism: with 'good' and 'evil' as categories taken as independent of Gd; I think the Biblical categories are godly and ungodly. Or 'not-god'. And 'freewill' is not so much the issue, as is that we are in God's image; as it says in Genesis 1, we are like Gd: personal, our actions, and words have real consequences, are thoughts are significant. So, flowing from this, 'free will' is that our choices are significant and affect us and others; that is, being like Gd. God made us to be like him so we could live in connection with him. A&E decided they'd prefer to disconnect and chose the 'not-god' path. God turns that around in his incarnation to rescue us; but most don't want to be rescued but continue in their disregard for the creator. The ultimate point is not the glibly labelled 'heaven' but the New Creation: new heavens and earth. Like this one but indescribably better.
Again, the issue of the balance on numbers of those who've excluded themselves from life with God and those who have repented and turned to him is pointless. The locus of the experience of life is the individual; thus one's own plight or benefit is unrelated to the number of individuals that have similar experience.
When you assert that God created man in his image do you mean, ...... with no knowledge of right and wrong ?? 🤔 or did he only only truly reflect _"Gods image"_ AFTER eating of the fruit when he became a "sinner" ?? 🤔 is this why man can be a jealous, genocidal monster at times just like his alleged "creator" ??
There is no Good without Evil. There is no pleasure without pain. There is no happiness without sadness. Evil exists so we can choose Good.
My, how very Daoist of you!
But that is false. Evil isn't a thing. It's a lack of Good. God who is the definition of Good lacks in nothing and therefore doesn't require evil to exist.
My friend, I invite you to learn to know the true God is, how much he loves you, and what he did to save you from the daily evil that you do. Instead of running away from him, get to know him.
@@sidwhiting665 God cannot exist without the existence of Evil. Just as Light cannot exist without the existence of Darkness. I understand that both Evil and Darkness are the lack of Good and Light - which supports my earlier claim. If there is no Darkness then Light is not discernible - same for Good and Evil. If Evil did not exist then Good would not be discernible. And if it were not discernible then it could not be chosen. There would be no option. There is nothing without its opposite. Good and Evil. Light and Dark. And I know without a shadow of any doubt that Jesus is the Christ - the Son of the Eternal God and only by Him, of Him and through Him can we be saved or have hope in any good thing.
@@sterlingfallsproductions3930 Heaven exists within the Universe and there will always be Evil in the Universe.
@@TheTimologist "Heaven exists within the Universe and there will always be Evil in the Universe."
But evil won't exist in heaven, right? So evil need not exist on earth for people to choose good.
It seems God ensure there'd be evil in this world since he put Satan in it from the beginning. He could have kept Satan out and then there'd be 'evil somewhere in the universe' and earth could have been heaven like.
Hallmark card level philosophy....
Jesus Christ is the way and the truth and the life no one comes to the father but by Jesus. He paid for this world 🌎. He went through a lot for me and I love him. Thank you Lord I am not worthy.
So when did anyone say free will doesn't allow for evil? Lucifer is a testament to how even in a perfect universe, free will can choose evil at any time. If God intervenes, then he removes free will.
No free will for us in heaven?
@@tTtt-ho3tqthat's what I'm thinking too. We can't sin in heaven, so there is no free will in heaven?
If there is free will in heaven where the consequences will be a possibilty of evil, so what's the different between heaven and earth?
At the end of the day, God removes people's free will in heaven, why not doing that before He created everything?
What's with all these drama?