Smyth Busters: Will Excess Bullet Setback Blow Up Your Gun?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 มี.ค. 2022
- An old nugget of reloader wisdom warns that too much bullet setback can lead to your gun blowing up. Is that true? Don't worry, Brownells Gun Techs™ Caleb and Steve, aka The Smyth Busters, are on the case. Bullet setback refers to how deep the bullet sits in the cartridge case. As a round is going into the chamber, sometimes the bullet jams against the feed ramp and gets pushed deeper into the case. The bullet in turn compresses the powder charge, leading to a spike in chamber pressure that CAN be strong enough to damage the gun. At the very least, regular exposure to excessive pressures will cause accelerated wear on the gun. Worst-case scenario: your gun blows up, with collateral damage to YOU. The risk is higher with maximum-pressure handloads and commercial +P ammo, and rifle cartridges are not immune to the effects of excess bullet setback. Most guns are built to handle more pressure than the normal maximum pressure of the cartridge, up to twice as much, but it's not a good idea to chance it. The bullet jamming down into the case also causes the case to swell, which can lead to feeding problems - not something you want during a self-defense emergency! Some gun designs are more prone to feed problems caused by a bulged case, the 1911 for example, but Glocks much less so. So it's NOT a myth: Excess bullet setback CAN lead to damage to your gun or even a KA-BOOM.
- กีฬา
So, many years ago I was a law enforcement officer. We were issued Glock 22s. Our carry ammunition was Speer Gold Dot. I’d often clear my pistol for various reasons. Often times I’d simply “re-chamber” the same round, go back on duty.
One day at our yearly in service training, we were told to shoot our duty ammunition in training and we’d be given fresh ammunition before we left the range. First time I went and drew my G22 to shoot our qualifying course I had that first round sound extremely loud and it caused a malfunction. Upon closer examination, one of the frame rails slightly separated from the frame. Hence the Glock was shipped back to Glock. I learned a lesson that day.
I’d would have had a single shot pistol had I been involved in an incident. Scary.
Yep because glocks do hit a fairly steep feedramp unlike Beretta.
I was in Law enforcement for almost 20 years always just left everything in my duty belt. They left their glocks on the job and loaded and unloaded them every shift. Having known about this potential problem for years I was uneasy at best and they wondered why they had so many negligent discharges . Luckily two weeks later I got a better offer closer to home.
when i load my pistol for cary, i typically manually load it, drop the slide then insert my magazine. same with my rifle
@@xtreampb6309 bad on your extractor
@@xtreampb6309 This method you use will put more stress on the extractor as you're forcing the extractor's claw around the cartridge, whereas in normal feeding the round slips behind the extractor as it slides up the breech face finding its seat. Examine your extractor very closely for any chips.
When you see Steven gets serious u know it's something important lol.
0:03
I actually had some experience with this issue while working in Africa. I was called to investigate a negligent discharge by one of the prison guards that resulted in 2 guards being injured. Long story short, neither one had any Bullet holes in them, and there was only pieces of brass that looked to be brass casing at the scene where it happened. I emptied the rest of the magazine from the 9mm carbine and found 3 rounds that had been pushed backed into the case by constant rechambering during loading. I confirmed it when pushed the bullet out that had stopped in the barrel. When the round was fired, the excessive pressure blew the bolt back and exploded the brass case out the ejection port. The resulting premature loss of pressure resulted in the bullet not having enough gas to push it clear of the barrel. Definitely had me scratching my head at first look.
That's another reason why we sell bullet pullers.
Except on round nose Ojive pistol bullets, the grip of a collet puller is a crap shoot at best when the bullet is too deeply set.
@@philroe2363 That's why we sell inertia bullet pullers as well as the collet type.
On deployment my unit's M9 pistols had ammunition that was probably from the first wave of troops sent to Afghanistan. The bullets were so far set back and I was the only one to notice this. I warned my leadership and crew that such ammunition is unsafe to use but I was not listened to. No one believed me when I said bullet set back like this can create dangerous situations or at the very least cause malfunctions to your sidearm right when you need it most.
Thankfully we never had to use our sidearms to defend ourselves, but the lack of care on my leadership's part in addressing this issue for life saving equipment was eye opening, and frankly, kind of pissed me off. If I am in a war zone where we are warranted to carry sidearms, it needs to work, not blow up in my face.
Yeah, every RSO I had in the navy told us the two M16 apertures were for "low light and normal".
The military is a joke. Only fat neck beards who never served will get mad when you say that too.
@@handlesaredumb1 I've heard stories of people being forced to lube the gas holes on the AR BCG during training, which gets blown out immediately upon firing at best and causes the holes to gum up at worst.
@@MrCrackbear wow
Pressure definitely goes up as a function of bullet seating depth.
Reloading data and SAAMI standards exist for a reason. This is one of this duo’s best. Thanks!
Cartridge overall length is definitely a thing.
@@mattkissmyasstyrants8676 A thing with a lot of variation.
Over pressured rounds due to bullet pushback is plausible, but from my experience what is most lost is accuracy. I have shot many rounds with bullets pushed back and have NEVER seen any evidence of serious over pressure that would cause damage to the gun. No cracked cases and no primers pushed out....at all. But I did end up with a flier on the target. Is it best to remove the round....yes especially if you are on the upper cusp or the guns pressure limit.
What is the reloading data for a .45ACP with 360 grain bullets? They work in .45LC with a lower SAAMI pressure.
@@POOKIE5592 I was once told I should not keep one round in the chamber. My answer is "Two will not fit." A shell with too long of OAL will stop the rotation of a revolver cylindars. A shade off from the limits of OAL has been known to cause a malfunction in a self-loader. The tighter the tolerances in the weapon, the more likely it will happen
When I worked for a particular federal agency, we had .357 SIG rounds that would do this, as we frequently had to load and unload our handguns. Didn’t matter the brand, it happened all the time, with every one of them.
I could see this happening more frequently with a bottleneck case like 357sig. There's only a bit of 35cal neck to grip the bullet, any farther and the case opens up to almost 40 caliber. Whereas a tapered or straight wall case will grip the bullet wherever it is, maybe even getting tighter the deeper it goes.
The whole reason I’m watching this video is because I found a sig round with bullet sunk
Thanks for this video. I read something about this phenomenon in a magazine sometime in the late 1990s. When I was in Iraq we would have to load and unload our weapons every time we went outside the wire which for my team it was 4 or 5 times a week. This meant the same rounds were repeatedly chambered over and over again. Remembering that article I became concerned enough that I would hand load the round into my M16, ride the bolt forward and use the forward assist to seat it more gently than it would otherwise chamber. Everyone else looked at me like I was paranoid/nuts but I did it anyway just in case. I'm glad to finally get some vindication after all this time.
Im an army small arms repairer. We had a soldier that had a double feed with an m4, and just like anyone who doesn't know how forward assist works, he mashed the forward assist, pushing the bullet into the case. He fired it. The whole m4 blew up.
I check my rounds when im putting them in my mags. I've seen brand new commercial 9mm that is pushed back right out the box.
Kenosha Kid probably the only person to even benefit from forward assist.
I had a Galil cobbled together by Century Arms. Bullets liked to hit too low on the feed ramp pushing bullets back. I was having problems blowing primers and deforming case heads. Finally figured out the receiver was milled incorrectly which made the magazine sit too low. No more CAI made junk.
I got a factory 9mm round once with a large piece of brass broke off.
Thanks for covering this topic. This was an issue among police agencies due to the practice of racking in a round, then re-using that same round. Doing that every shift/day, combining it with high pressure defensive ammo/40S&W, you can imagine where the term “Glocked” originated.
Also with ARs being re-racked with same round over and over. The free floating firing pin pecks the primer a tad each time. And can set one off potentially over time. It's why they use harder primers. Never seen one pop for that reason but if you rack one and check the primer after you'll see it dings it a bit
@@hughgrection3052 I had a poly 80 that would do that, I’d rack the slide, and every time, there’s a concerning dent on the primer from the striker.
@jon boy I've never owned one of those yet. I'll keep an eye out for it tho now thanks. And yeah anytime I re-rack any gun I try to shift the top round out into a lower spot in the mags just as a good habit. Another thing since many now carry a SIG P365.. (I carry the P365XL myself).. is that they're made with extremely tight tolerances. So it's not SIGs fault. But I noticed alot of defense rounds I buy lately are a bit long and out of spec. So the anyways the pistol "fires" them with no problem. But the moment u try to cycle out unfired rounds it will lock the slide up at the port nearly everytime. And it's so tight of a jam as it tries to eject it takes pliers to dig the round out lol. But it can cause setback also. But even worse is if ya have a dud in a gunfight and you try to cycle it out and u get a deathjam instead lol. So check the rounds and make sure they cycle out and are in spec on all pistols. Just a heads up
@@hughgrection3052 ò
Dangerous practice anyway. If you are going to rack a round you do not intend to shoot, then make it a dummy round. Put a dummy round at the top of the mag. Rotate the mag in the chamber out while putting the dummy in. Rack the dummy round out while chambering the live round. Then top off the magazine from the box. Put the round rotated out into a box to use on the range. If you are not putting 20 rounds downrange a month, turn in your badge.
I performed an unscientific test by chambering a Speer 230-grain Gold Dot HP, a Win PDX1 230-grain HP, and a 230-grain LRN reload ten times in my Glock 30. The before & after COL measurements showed the Gold Dot round setback .01 inch, the LRN reload also .01 inch, and the PDX1 only .002-.003 inch. I expected more setback with the reload, the case being fired an unknown number of times and a softer lead bullet, but the Speer factory load surprised me a bit. The PDX1 seemed very non-conducive to setback. All three fired with no discernible difference from untested rounds. Clearly setback occurs, but the amount will vary with firearms and cartridge makes. The question is: How much is too much?
I have had it happen with factory loaded ammo. My Sig Sauer p320 blew up shooting a Glaser Safety Slug that was defective. When I looked at the rest of the box , the overall lengths were all over the place.
I hope this comment gets pinned to the top, thanks for sharing 👍!
Eh thats just a Sig Feature, they fixed in in generation 6
Sig stood by their gun and replaced the grip module at no cost, even with being an ammo problem. Corbon did nothing. It was an ammo problem.
Morning gentlemen, good to see the old coffee cups back! As a beginning handloader in the early '80's I stuffed a 158gr way, way too far down in a .357 case in a Blackhawk. Thought, "what could it hurt?" Well.... It bulged the case bad enough I had to remove it on the bench with a punch. The recoil was "memorable" shall we say. Indeed in that case it was real. Thanks and stay well.
ideal gas law: PV = nRT. Pressure is inversely proportional to volume. Setback = less volume, more pressure.
It should be noted that there are minor differences in setting from load to load as setting depth can be used to adjust pressure/velocity. So two of the same caliber rounds but different loads or loaded by a different company or loaded on different days (if it's cheap inconsistant ammo) can have two different settings. Moral of the story if you compare Brand A 115g fmj 9mm to Brand B 115g fmj 9mm and note a slightly different set height, it's probably nothing to be concerned about. However, if it's off enough to look weird and/or off compared to others of the same load from the same brand... you might wanna just throw it out.
Another subject is transportation of guns and ammo. If you walk or drive on bumpy roads long enough the vibration can wear off the detent coatings and generally break down the powder. The effects can be significant. This from an old guns and ammo edition.
I have a 1911 that WAS converted to 400 Corbon. I carried it for years and have 100's of rounds with set back!! I now carry it in 45acp! My friend carries a 357 Sig and set back is a very big problem. Thus was an EXCELLENT, EXCELLENT, EXCELLENT VIDEO!!
Certain loads like Hornady Critical Duty are actualky designed to be more resistant to this. The bullet is crimped in such a way that it forms a small ledge, keeping it from moving backwards into the case. I'm sure it'll still do so after enough cycles, but it's much more resistant to it.
Good carry ammo can be expensive, but occasionally you have to go shoot what's been sitting in your mags to avoid this problem.
Even with a "solid" gun: Bullets are cheaper than firearms.
You all touched on most of the important points. I think many historical ka-booms were likely handloads, like you mentioned, and likely using fast powders. Fast powders have many good qualities.. but they also have slim margins. Take an already spicy handload of fast powder and set it back.. consequences have the possibility of being serious.
Include in your final load workup an OAL test. Load a few too long, a few kind of short, and run them over the chrono. If you have that moment where you are looking at the FPS and scratching your head... pick a different powder.
Even slow pistol powders are still very fast compared to a rifle powder. But reloads are a known issue, most manufactures tell you not to shoot reloads, even professional reloads like freedom munitions, because they have blown up so many pistols.
I’ve always been told it’s unsafe and I’ve heard people that are “gun guys” say nah it’s fine it’s not going to blow up your gun don’t worry about it. So I’m glad you made this video to lay this one to rest.
A year or so ago I bought some rounds form a well known on line sales place and out of 1000 rounds there were 7 that were visible to the eye, a lot lower than the others. I set them aside and then took a micrometer and measured them and they were out of spec by a long shot. This made me go through and measure all of them and found 4 more that were also out of spec. This taught me to be sure and at least look at all new loads no matter who they are from. BTW I did send an email to the company and got no answer so I quit buying from them. Just be sure to check!
I'd love to know which company this was
freedoms ???
@@Palo_Duro gotta be Winchester white box
Freedom Munitions?
I remember reading Capstick saying he had a similar problem when he was culling elephants. He was shooting a .458 Win and as he fired he would top off leaving the 3rd round in the rifle. Eventually he had to use all 3 rounds to stop a charge and the 3rd round just bounced off the elephant’s skull. He figured recoil over time had caused the bullet to set back. Something most of us will never happen but good to contemplate.
I suggest manually chambering the first round if you know how to safely.
When I worked in corrections, this was an issue. Same round gets chambered over and over when officers relieve each other on post. Had to constantly check top rounds and have the armorer swap them out when they were noticeably set back.
I usually leave my home defense/carry guns chambered, but when I do unload them I compare the extracted round to a fresh one. If I can notice setback to the point I know it's not just a tolerance issue, into the range box it goes. And when I load them, I ride it forwards so it doesn't impact the feed ramp very hard.
Faster powders as can be common in pistol calibers, hotter weather with some powders, can make this even worse.
When I started reloading this is one of the first things I learned about. Make sure you crimp the case mouth tight enough to hold the bullet in the case securely or bad things can happen. Also, cartridge overall length is as important as the charge itself. Ammunition like Buffalo Bore or Cor-Bon which is already pretty hot to begin with would be disastrous if you had setback with one of those rounds.
That's the rub though: autoloading pistol cartridges can't have a true crimp put on their case mouth, because the way that autoloaders headspace rounds.
In the context of pistol cartridges, particularly, heavy crimps and rolled crimps can truly only be had with cartridges that have rimmed cases, and where the action headspaces on that rim; in other words, revolvers.
So regardless of how meticulous the loading or manufacture of pistol cartridges is, the potential for "Set Back" or "Jump Back" is going to always exist for autoloaders.
The only ways to truly ameliorate this potential is 1) discard the cartridge after having chambered it more than once, or 2) use a revolver, where cartridges may be chambered and unchambered ad infinitum without any Set Back.
My father in law blow up his Taurus 1911 clone gun and it cut his hand pretty bad. We still thank God every day it wasn't worse than that we don't do 9mm reloads too much and when he loaded the rounds they were seated really far down like just perfect on the round parts of the poured lead ball rounds... BOOOOOOOM pretty bad gashing and a lot of gauze later he cleaned up his own hand and told me in shame...
I like that you didn't overstate the problem. Likely, far more setback rounds have been fired than anyone ever knew about. However, if it is enough to be immediately noticeable or causes a malfunction, you need to dump that round. As Caleb said, it isn't worth it.
As far as the carry ammo part goes, you should be regularly cycling through your carry ammo for practice anyway. Shoot a magazine or two of your carry ammo periodically so that you know how it changes the operation of the pistol as verses your target rounds.
I would like to see a smythbuster on if you have to unload your defensive weapon? I rarely ever do.
For carry purposes I only use factory ammo, when I see bullet set back, I put that round aside, then grab my bullet puller, and tap that bullet back out, then recrimp the case, that usually solves the problem until I rotate ammo.
At over a dollar a round I can't afford to toss a round just because the factory crimp fails.
Edit for clarification: I do this as soon as the first cartridge looks stubbier than the other ones, I don't wait until the casing gets beat out of shape.
I found bullet setback to be more prevalent in my vintage 1911’s.
I've had the "boom" in .45 ACP hand loads. Bullet crimping not adequate. It was like a cannon compared to a normal explosion. My guess when round hit feed ramp, bullet pushed back into case, and KaWhamo.
So, if a round goes "KaWhamo," blame it on the bullet crimp.
Bullets are not hold in place by crimp. They are hold in place by neck tension. If you don't believe me get a soft lead bullet. Load it, and hammer it off. For a 9mm you will see .351-.353 size where the bullet is held in the case. It will tumble and keyhole.
Workarounds are using an M-die or a .38s&w expander and then sizing your coated bullets to .356 or bigger.
@@JohnLloydScharf If it goes Kaboom, then different issue. :-)
@@Sapphire1987 Good tips. "M" die sounds like a good idea. Thanks
Most of my handgun shooting over the past forty years has been with a revolver -- and revolvers don't do this. In fact, revolvers have the opposite problem for some of the same reasons. Recoil tends to pull the bullet *out* of the case mouth, and if a round stays in the cylinder longer than five shots (as might happen if you shoot three or four rounds and then reload the fired chambers, several times -- a real possibility if you're practicing tactical shooting, or if you carry the gun for snakes on a ranch or small game hunting) the bullet can potentially pull out far enough to interfere with the forcing cone and lock the gun up. This isn't dangerous in terms of blowing up the gun, but in a defensive situation it can cost you your life.
It's called "jumping crimp," or a "crimp jump," or "jump crimp."
Crimp jumps are most likely to happen with +P type loadings, particularly in lightweight revolvers, or with very poorly made ammunition.
The main distinction from bullet "Set Back," is that it is the recoil energy from firing the pistol that causes the un-fired rounds to jump their crimp, whereas the setting-back can happen to the chambered round, merely from chambering in the autoloading action.
If the ammo is properly made, and within spec pressures, jumping crimp is effectively non-existent.
Rounds that may be liable to jump crimp in a lighter revolver may not jump crimp at all simply by being used in a heavier revolver, because, again, it comes down fundamentally to recoil energy, and larger pistol mass can alter the recoil dynamics.
Even with heavy bullets or +P loads, in smaller pistols, if the cartridges are properly manufacturered, jumping crimp will only be a liability after a round has been exposed to the recoil energy of c. ten (10) other cartridges being fired. To be on the safe side, one could halve that and say around five (5) firings.
So to eliminate the prospect, one needs simply to take some care when loading up their cylinder. In other words, if you have a five-shot revolver, for example, and you fire two rounds that day to, say, kill some vermin animals, you simply reload the two empty chambers whilst ensuring that the second reloaded chamber is the one resting in line with the forcing cone: what would have been cartridge number three to be fired in the last full cylinder now automatically becomes the first cartridge to be fired on the topped up cylinder. Reloading in this way, no single cartridge will be exposed to the recoil energy of more than five firings, before being "first in line" and fired itself.
So crimp jump is definitely a consideration. The nice thing with revolvers though, is that the way catridges headspace in revolvers means that a true roll crimp can be applied to the cartridges. This, combined with some care and attention in loading the pistol, means that crimp jumping can be effectively eliminated as a practical concern. With autoloaders, no matter how meticulously manufactured the ammo is, there is no way to actually stop the prospect of crimp jumping and set back aside from discarding the cartridge after it has been chambered more than once, or has found itself as the c. number eight un-fired cartridge in a magazine.
Glock 22 in .40 S&W + Bullet setback = Ka-Boom
Nope. A writer for The Daily Caller tested this and couldn't make his .40 SW Glock explode -- or even show damage -- even after smacking the bullets with a hammer. The article is called "Battered Bullets."
@@ToastbackWhale This video gave the qualifier for +P. The Daily Caller "experiment" only used 40 S&W Speer Gold Dot( NOT +P). Testing only one load is *not* exculpatory evidence. Run some Buffalo Bore +P w/ setback in an unsupported .40 chamber; Are you confident enough to *not* use a ransom rest?
@@BlackPhillip666 im not, f that, I'll keep my hands thanks
@@ToastbackWhale As someone else noted outside temperatures could factor in, not too mention there’s always some tolerance differences in every round. Also there’s at least one comment about a Glock that said he had some damage to his firearm after doing this. So an unscientific uncontrolled bubba test vs scientific data that says some degree of set back make a 40 SW equal in pressure to a 7.62 nato do you really wanna risk it or encourage others to not heed warnings?
@@dustyak79 Go read the article. It's not as bubba as you think.
Setback is not an issue for any well made firearm, seeing as +P loads are only 10% over max pressure, while proof loads are 100% over max pressure. And you gun can handle a proofload or six.
Witnessed this happen one time. Kimber .45. Jammed a home load on the feed ramp. Shooter adjusted the slide to complete loading of the round and fired it. It blew the wood grips off the firearm and she was hit in the face by multiple fragments of shrapnel. She was wearing safety glasses, but she felt it in her hands for quite some time. I don't believe it damaged the pistol mechanisms, but they did send the gun back to Kimber for evaluation. I was not aware this could happen until that day.
Hornady seems to be pretty prone to this, from my experience. Also, I’ve heard that .40 in particular, is one round you need to pay attention to. Many .40 pistols are basically built on a 9mm frame and the .40 caliber is toward the upper limit of what the frame can handle, already. The increased setback and pressures can cause some serious issues on those pistols.
If I unchamber a round for dry fire or cleaning, etc…I’ll cycle my rounds in my magazine. My unchmabered round becomes my first round I put in the mag (last to be used).
Yeah I do the same but not after one chambering, if I chamber the same load a few times I will move it to the bottom of the mag. I rarely unchamber the round in my pistol so it takes several years before that's ever an issue though.
I wonder if the nickel plated cases that Hornady uses are more prone to this because of the slickness of the nickel case.
@@tubeonline629 that makes me feel better about ending up with brass cases. That started during the plandemic.
That’s an issue where I work. We are issued our pistols in the morning and turn them in at the end of the day. So they get loaded and unloaded a lot. With my personal carry guns I do not do this. They stay loaded at all times unless they’re being taken apart for cleaning. There is no need to be unloading and loading a carry gun all the time.
Every time I go to the range I start out with my carry ammo to prevent this. I typically carry a single stack so I'm not wasting a bunch of good ammo. When I'm done I load fresh ammo.
@@Jbs6187 I think it's worth the money personally. I carry critical defense. Like I said, it's a single stack so I'm losing 8 rounds at a time. I'll switch to practice ammo after the first mag
@@Jbs6187 it can be expensive but it’s better then having a catastrophic malfunction when you most need the gun!
@@Jbs6187 and like this other comment I seen bullets are cheaper then a new firearm lol
Cycling carry ammo out at the range was regularly drilled into me back in my younger days by older more experienced curmudgeons who took carrying very seriously. It has two purposes, the first is to ensure YOU confirm where your sights are hitting with that carry ammo, and the second was to limit things like set back, possible oil infiltration, and powder degradation from the constant vibration and jostling.
@@striker8paints ya I think it's important to confirm that your carry ammo has the same point of impact too. I've never experienced any severe shifts between ammo in my handguns, but it's something to be aware of.
One of my Hornady manuals addresses this. They intentionally set back bullets and fired them in their test fixtures to measure the pressure. As one would expect in large rifle cases it basically made no difference, but the .40 S&W ramped up to 60,000 PSI with very little setback when using 180 grain bullets.
Thanks for doing these, guys.
I had this happen when a box of federal 9bple I ordered got slightly smushed during shipping. 47/50 rounds were fine, but those last 3 were set back maybe 2mm. I wouldn't have worried about it with range ammo, but given that it was +p+ I threw those 3 out. Not worth the risk.
Great video fellas. Always love the info from Brownell's
I reload and I have been completely ignorant of a bullet being set back. I've shot them a few times that have been like that. Thank you for the heads up great video
Chambering and unchambering over and over is likely more an issue with regular dry fire practice.
Great video guys amazing information!
Anything can happen at any point. It's the odds that matter. Most modern day pistols are rated for +P ammunition. If you do get a slightly over pressured standard round in a pistol, I don't see how it's going to be any more pressure than a +P.
Smokeless powder burns at a higher rate with pressure hence it is not a linear curve in increase, but a geometric. Simply put, if the pressure is higher by 10%, the burn rate increases by a magnitude curve, and then MORE pressure is a result, hence a cascade event. As +P loads are typically 10% or so higher in pressure you'll find it is NOT a 10% increase in powder, usually just 2 to 3% to compensate for the increased burning speed at that pressure point. Decreased case volume is a big factor as well.
Generally, you’ve got hotter carry loads experiencing this as that’s what you load and unload all the time. The problem is if there is less volume inside the case, that’s a bigger bang. The issue is that you don’t quite know if you’re already near the limits of the chamber pressures with an overpressured carry load. That compounded with a setback round is a bigger risk compared to its single low cost.
Interesting, subtle way of recommending a revolver for EDC.
Important safety issue. Thanks for the information. Greatly appreciated.
Thank you for making this video! I've been looking for this info, from a reputable/trusted source, for a couple years
On a recent armed security position, if carrying the company issued Glock Model 22 .40 caliber, we were required to fully unload the weapon at the end of each shift and reload at the beginning of your next shift. The weapon was assigned solely to you and locked up when you were not on duty. During shift change one evening, the officer I was relieving set the round down that had just been removed from the chamber. I noticed severe set back in that round and moderate setback in the next round in the magazine. All other rounds in the magazine were fine. The rounds were immediately taken out of service when the Security Director examined them.
The last 3 years I’ve noticed 2 brands of popular brass factory 115gr 9mm ammunition that have had a 10 to 20 per 500 rounds like this out of the box. I make sure to really pay attention, also 450 Bushmaster ammo is one to watch.
I have a little info that might be useful. As a COP, when we had kids in the house, I used to clear my service pistol every day. It was a .40 S&W Glock. I know you said that Glock pistol weren't as much of a issue but it does occur with them. I would notice the chamber round would have the bullet set back after a month or two of rechambering the same cartridge. I would put that round in a coffee cup in the safe and replace it with a new one. Every so often, I would take a impact bullet puller and use it to pull the bullet back to about the original position and use this ammo for when we requalified. Before I started doing this I had fired a couple of these and noticed a much sharper 'flip' from the pistol. There is definitely a pressure spike on a setback 40.
As far as reloading goes. I reload and have a Lee 'factory crimp die' for nearly every caliber that I reload. I have found that this is a great tool from Lee and I haven't had any noticeable setback on any ammo that I have loaded with that tool. It's an extra step but worth it. I put that die in one of my presses and after I load a batch of ammo I just run them all through that station and it really doesn't take long.
Ya'll Take Care and be safe, John
Glad I watched this..my rock island 1911 with Winchester hollow point the one I rack in and out is a quarter inch set back..now I need to look at all..waste of some expensive ammo.. it happens in just a few load and reloadd with that ammo
I had a new ar9 build that wasn't feeding well on test fire day. At the end of the set I had a few setback rounds that I was gonna run through 1 by 1. I pulled the mag, loaded my first setback by hand, pulled the trigger, and got peppered by shrapnel. The back of the brass seperated from the rest of the case, leaving a brass cylinder in the chamber. I blew the extractor right out of the bcg too. It still ran fine after that, even without the extractor. Lesson learned!!
Thanks for the great video! I’ve seen billet set backs happen a lot when I’m reloading. That’s why it’s so important to measure the OAL of each round and to make sure that each round has the proper crimp.
Thank you for the wisdom. Take care!
This should be shown to my old employer in the security department. I was actually curious about this myself. Very interesting and a lot good information in a short video. Thanks guys!
On the gun i keep loaded, i rarely unload it. When i do, and then re-load it with carry ammo, i ride the slide gently to chamber the round, to avoid it getting any setback, however minor. Of course i make sure the round fully chambered, doing a visual press-check.
That's some of the other issues with autoloaders: keeping loaded all of the time may prevent set back, but it also keeps the magazine under tension for very long periods, wearing them out faster. Riding the slide means the round might not be fully in battery.
Awesome. I have a whole box of rounds like this and haven’t been sure if setting them aside is necessary or not. Thanks for covering this.
I was running a guy during a competition who blew up his gun. It was a stainless Taurus in .40. I know he loaded his own ammo, but he wasn't that bright, either. I assume it was an overcharge or over-seating if the bullet. (He also brought a huge box of reloaded steel and aluminum to range one day)
9 times out of 10, a weapon blowing up has to do with reloaded ammunition.
Self load .40’s + Taurus + dumb ass = 🤦♂️
Thank you for this and the editors for no more background music when they’re talking
Great info. Thank you.
I rarely un-chamber a round and then re-chamber the same round specifically because of this problem. Previously chambered rounds get rotated out and sent to another slot in the magazine or to a different mag altogether. I also periodically perform "length tests" to see if all (or at least most) of the rounds in a magazine look the same. This is why it's a very good idea to cycle out your carry ammo at the range at least once or twice a year.
I tried a new bullet design in my 45 acp for my 1911. I used the same load and OAL I had been using for years. All of a sudden I'm getting blown primers, the primer pockets were so expanded they wouldn't even hold a primer, on the ones with the primer intact it was severely flattened. Nothing was different except the bullet. It took awhile, but I finally figured out the bullet was longer and sitting deeper in the case. I went to a longer than recommended OAL and that cured the overpressure problem. The bullet sitting deeper mimicked a setback,
Were they Hornady XTP ? Due to the larger hollow point making the same weight bullet a bit longer, they usually call for a little less powder.
Great info vid, guys! 🤙🏻🇵🇷
Bullet setback was the reason why I stopped used Winchester Silvertips decades ago. Those bullets were too easily pushed back into the cases, especially in .45 ACP.
I noticed this problem with .380 and 9mm as well, although not quite as bad. It's possible the feed ramps and barrels were throated enough to minimize bullet setback.
It was probably caused by a combination of inadequate barrel throating, Silvertip bullets being slicker than most, and inadequate crimp/bullet pull.
Taper crimps used for semi-auto pistols may demand more caution in choosing bullets and cases. A slight roll crimp might secure the bullet, but at the risk of headspacing problems.
Nowadays many semi-auto pistols are throated more aggressively with better feed ramps. That's good if we use only standard pressure rounds. But it compromises case web support, so it could be a problem with +P and +P+ loadings.
I'd still be okay with Silvertips in revolvers, including .45 ACP and 9mm. They were reliable cartridges otherwise and expanded okay in some test media. And Silvertips are often inexpensive compared with newer hollow point designs.
Thanks guys for good quality info!
I had the thing happen exactly like Caleb described with a 1911 , using Extreme defense .45 acp in a Ruger 1911. I'd unload at night, then in the morning put mag back in, chamber a round, drop the mag and top it off with the one I had extracted the night before. Then one day I noticed the cartridge looked odd and sure enough those top two rounds that I'd been extracting and reloading were definitely shoved into the case, quite a bit. Luckily I hadn't fired them.
Much appreciated thanx guys😎🤝
Bullet “set-back” will occur regardless of hand loading or off-the shelf. All my Glocks (G42, G26, G19 and G23) will set-back the round on chambering. As you mentioned, loading and unloading that SAME round. When ever I have to unload my chambered round, I MUST INSPECT that round and when I find it set back, to my tolerance, I place that round into a box specifically for range ONLY discharge. A lot of the time, not always, I’ll carry un-chambered for this reason. I found that chambering a single round, with the slide forcibly slamming the cartridge into the chamber and the bullet into the BORE, any round will have substantial set-back after two to three loadings. GOOD VIDEO esp for those that DO CARRY.
Winchester '94 30-30 tube magazine can set back your cheaper 30-30 shells pretty often. Expensive 30-30, not as much, but watch for it. Surprising how many folks don't know about this damage possibility.
Good info!
Glad I've been considered them a bad round all these years
By the time the bullet is setback that much from loading and unloading .. it just mean you need more range time , obviously you don’t shoot much and all you do is load and unload
I get a ton of range time. I think I speak for many when I say that I keep a carry magazine loaded and unload it frequently to swap that for range ammunition. I shoot my carry gun quite frequently, just not with expensive carry ammunition, this is the way.
Are you saying the ammo you use at the range and the ammo you use in a carry gun is the same? Are you carrying FMJ or are you shooting HP at the range?
The American Rifleman did an article on this topic, some years ago. The article detailed that with a little setback, chamber pressures DOUBLE. I forget how much setback.
8 rounds of 9mm in a row, with 120 grain LRN bullet set back touching the powder charge (4 or 5 grains of medium burning rate pistol powder) cracked my Manurhin P38 slide IN HALF.
deal with it
Excellent video, especially when using reloads. I had the chamber blow apart on my Colt Officer using out-of-the-box, Federal 230 fmj. After contacting Colt, they replaced the barrel, link and link pin.
Bought a box of Sig 9mm not too long ago and over half of the rounds were set back way too far. I haven't fired them because I wasn't sure what would happen, so thanks for this informative video.
Good topic. Also another cause a lot of people may do or overlook is if you have factory boxed ammo and put them in cans and the fit is too tight when puzzle pieced in them. To maximize space, you'd be inclined to just go on and squeeze it in there bc they fit just right sometimes but may be too tight. I have a can of 9mm luger I have to check. I left them in boxes to see dates bc was several brands and they fit perfect but had to squeeze the last box in there. I thought of this potential problem afterward but actually forgot til this video. So thanks. It may save me and happened for a reason. Anyway, appreciate the videos ya'll. 🐍🇺🇸
Thank you, I have pondered this question many times. SALUTE
Very informative, I like these videos by John Moses Browning and Johnny Cash from brownells. Thanks guys!
Scott drove home the warning “only use ammunition in good condition.” I’ve had a few set back and they go in the dud bin.
Even though I heard about this years ago, I'm glad to hear you address it.
That pompadour is pristine my man. 🤙 Thanks for the info as well.
That may have been what caused a live round to get stuck in the chamber of my LCP MAX. I couldn't rackbthe slide with all my might to eject it. I had to fire the round and it wasn't pretty, but with some work, I was then able to remove the spent cartridge.
Stripped, cleaned and lubed the gun up, and all seems functional now.
I like Caleb's shirt in this one.
I had a Kaboom during a IDPA Competition where my Gen 3 Glock 22 with a AccuMatch Barrel and Compensator went BOOM and the Pressure of the 155gr JHP Defensive Round was do HIGH that it SHERRED OFF the Lower Barrel Locking Lug and Caused the Pistol to JAM with a LIVE ROUND in the CHAMBER and a VERY HAND way to get it since I could NOT get the SLIDE to COME BACK! Finally after about 20 minutes of working the Problem I was able to use a small Screw Driver into the Barrel Release and got the Slide to Move Forward! I still have the Pistol that still works fine with the OEM Barrel and the AccuMatch barrel and Comp. The Match was held at my Military Base Weapon Range and I had setup my pistol like a Rowland Special before there was such thing of Optics on Pistols since this happen in 2006.
In my experience, I have more problems with Hornaday and experiencing set back
Thank you!! From experience in reloading, I did have a 1911 barrel bulge on a bullet set back. Needless to say, I had to replace the barrel.
Recently had an AR-15 give 3-4 failure to feeds with the bullet set back inside the case. This video is helpful to diagnose what was going on.
It happened to me twice with hand loads both times I had case head separation and it blew the mag out the bottom of the pistol, Pretty hair ball, Turns out some cases were thicker than others as you said, Great Vlog !
I got a 10mm in my pocket tray from exactly what you said…chambered and rechambered in a dw specialist stainless….love that caspian bobtail boys..who built that one..? Thanks y’all make the best common knowledge vids on here that’s so helpful…matt
I've used a bullet removal mallet to move the bullet back out. If it came out too far, I use my single stage press to push it in a little. Not ideal for carry ammo, of course.
Same here, but also re-crimp, then into the range can.
You guys have obviously been on Reddit. This question was on either /guns or /reloading just a few days ago.
"If it seats it yeets!"
Thank you for educating me...
Some calibers suffer the opposite problem. The chambering of the 44 Auto Mag is especially violent because of the strong springs and heavy bullet. Even with a terrific crimp, the bullet will creep forward in the case slightly when it is stripped from the magazine and chambered. I one tried chambering then ejecting the same round repeatedly. By the fourth cycle, the round was too long to still fit in the magazine. I also measured rounds and how they reacted to the violence of recoil. The bottom round in the magazine got hammered repeatedly by the front of the magazine under recoil, and was measurably shorter than when it was first loaded into the magazine. But then it would grow again slightly when it was chambered.
Nobody ever thinks about that stuff….
I had it happen once with my 1911. It's by bed side firearm so it gets cleaned/loaded constantly (keep the dust off and insured proper functionality). I took it to the range and the bullet functioned normally. It was alittle nerve racking but I had to know if it would still work. From that point on, I changed my loading procedure for my night stand gun. I hand feed 1 round into the chamber, release slide, then insert the full magazine. Doing this eliminates the set back problems. I never had a setback issue again.
Maybe possible, but not my experience. I’ve reloaded for years and have accidentally set bullets too deep, put em in the range ammo bag and shot just fine. Maybe higher pressure, but make your gun blow up is an extreme case. Maybe an antique gun or something