Didn't talk about it in the video, but I find it pretty crazy that they didn't nerf the range of the Chain. The bounce range is massive. Saw Apooche writing that picking up tank production item against raiden is actually a 100% negative effect because the summons will just give extra range to the raiden which was quite funny and sad because it's true
60m chain... is the same range as a Wraith. It's way too long. The thing that really breaks the game though, is whatever drives the chain logic itself. It doesn't go for the 'nearest' unit but rather seems to have a target logic which prioritizes units towards the back of the 60m range with at least one of the chains. It is not randomized or recalculated on each attack either, as a unit that gets chained on the first attack will get chained again as long as the Raiden's target is within 60m of the chained unit, and the chained unit is still alive. This means that the chains will often find a higher health unit in the back line to hit, rather than your actual chaff units, and continue to chain to them until they die. The only way around this is to have more than 60m between your supporting units and your back line, which is incredibly hard to do reliably with nearly any comp. This is the precise mechanic that makes Raiden so oppressive, especially when paired with Electromag. I get the idea behind the chain is to drive the shot further into the enemy line but if you have 3+ Raidens the chain tech just turns into 60m electro-splash damage. Since it melts shields and is not negated by any other techs, the only defense against it is to kill them before they get any momentum and force your opponent to spend on other units and techs. When the opponent ignores your strat and goes hard into Raidens anyways, it generally snowballs and becomes unstoppable in a 1v1.
Seems like a band-aid patch. I'm sure the nerf to chain will help, but the ability to hit squishy backline units despite there being an active frontline is something that breaks the game.
This is like the Steel Ball upgrade that makes them target highest HP in that it breaks the core tactics of formations... but a better comparison might be 'Imagine a tech for Stormcallers that makes them target the furthest unit out first.' because of just how badly that would shatter formation building.
The biggest problem with chain at its current jump range is how often it's doing this damage when they are stacked. Attack speed nerf helps, but it needs to fire even less shots because many raidens are (still) too unwieldy. If the point of the tech is to pierce to backline, they should balance it to do what it does because the "range limitation" and attack speed nerfs aren't enough to keep it from taking over the game. If Chain fills the anti-backline niche, it needs to have proper tradeoffs so that it isn't spammable and requires actual support from the rest of the board.
Ionization will be a really good counter to WF. I went into Training Grounds and it will almost 50% it on the 1st shot. You just need to have finishing power to support it because it doesn't do anything to medium to low (remaining) HP units.
Ionization to me is the inverse to the melting points “Energy Defraction” and mimics the melting point in terms of performance. It can very risky. If you click that button you cannot unclick it.
Even at 100 it's hard to justify bringing ionization when other techs are so impactful. The fact that it sucks against raidens (which everyone is using) probably doesn't help either
I wonder if it ever becomes more economical or worth it to go a level 1 ionise raiden instead of a melter against a bunch of intensive training'd or high level sabers, fortresses, overlords etc. if you're losing. like it's not going to live long at all if it gets hit but if you can clear the chaff there might be that angle where you can't afford a range melter but you can get this?? idk could still be shit
To me, the changes don't solve the issues as far as I can tell. The primary issue is "what is the fantasy of the Raiden." As far as I can tell, the idea is that it's a shotgun that can blast medium-tier groups. So sledges, Typhoons, Balls - stuff like that. The PROBLEM is that it's not only a shotgun, it's actually got the range of fangs + it can clear chaffe + it can apply EMP to everything to hits. Chain hitting buildings and backlines was obviously bad. They did stop buildings from getting hit, but they didn't change the chaffe clear and backline damage of chain that much. Enough Raidens will still obliterate a backline with chain. The problem is that the damage delivery of this unit is simply too efficient. It is not a localized AOE - every shot deals 100% damage. Chain is the most efficient tech in the game and basically works like a battlefield-wide version of the Melting Point. Rather than a Melting Point scaling up its damage against one target, enough Raidens scales up a powerful enough opening salvo to completely clear the battlefield of chaffe and mid-tier threats instantly. Their nerfs here really didn't address the problems with the unit imo. What they should do: option 1: just remove chain. this pretty much fixes the problem instantly, because now there is no way to amass a "critical mass" of raidens that can instantly clear the battlefield. Even with fork, the cost of Raiden makes getting enough of them with only fork too high to ever actually achieve this kind of critical mass. option 2: keep chain, but drastically increase the attack interval on the tech. or drastically shorten range Again, the problem is that unlike other AOE or chaffe clears, the unit has 100% efficiency in its damage delivery if Chain is taken. One option is to make it simply attack far less frequently. "Chain causes attack interval to double" would be a potentially reasonable trade off. Alternatively, lean into the "shotgun" fantasy and make this thing SUPER close range. By forcing it to engage much more closely, now the opponent has range supremacy options or stall tactics available, and the raiden player cannot just put them safely in the backline - much more thought is required when it comes to deploying them since they aren't a very tanky unit. You wouldn't want these to be front lining, but they will have to push up to actually attack, which reduces their disgusting efficiency (which is the root problem of the unit).
Really I think the issue isn't the initial range of Raiden but the range of the chain coupled with the random nature of the bounce. Either make chain range 20 or make it target close to far
@@daviddobarganes9115 I don't actually know, it just seems to be a strong swiss army knife, good range, speed, toughness, DPS, fast missiles, air and ground attack, supporting techs. I can't think of any glaring weaknesses. It's my favourite unit for these reasons and I often see it being the last unit on the board in a tight game more than others.
It's entirely possible to nerf it into the ground, to the point of total uselessness. (Not that they should do that, of course, but my point is that there's no need to remove it entirely when severe nerfs are a possibility.)
Play for the late and get some chaff to distract them, crawlers with the move command are great against callers, also mustang are better at countering storm callers now
Didn't talk about it in the video, but I find it pretty crazy that they didn't nerf the range of the Chain. The bounce range is massive. Saw Apooche writing that picking up tank production item against raiden is actually a 100% negative effect because the summons will just give extra range to the raiden which was quite funny and sad because it's true
My thoughts exacktly. I think they should not have 100+ range.
60m chain... is the same range as a Wraith. It's way too long. The thing that really breaks the game though, is whatever drives the chain logic itself. It doesn't go for the 'nearest' unit but rather seems to have a target logic which prioritizes units towards the back of the 60m range with at least one of the chains. It is not randomized or recalculated on each attack either, as a unit that gets chained on the first attack will get chained again as long as the Raiden's target is within 60m of the chained unit, and the chained unit is still alive. This means that the chains will often find a higher health unit in the back line to hit, rather than your actual chaff units, and continue to chain to them until they die. The only way around this is to have more than 60m between your supporting units and your back line, which is incredibly hard to do reliably with nearly any comp. This is the precise mechanic that makes Raiden so oppressive, especially when paired with Electromag.
I get the idea behind the chain is to drive the shot further into the enemy line but if you have 3+ Raidens the chain tech just turns into 60m electro-splash damage. Since it melts shields and is not negated by any other techs, the only defense against it is to kill them before they get any momentum and force your opponent to spend on other units and techs. When the opponent ignores your strat and goes hard into Raidens anyways, it generally snowballs and becomes unstoppable in a 1v1.
Raiden probably needs a flat 10-20 range nerf across the board or a nerf to its range enhancement tech by that amount
About time, Raiden spam was a HUGE issue.
The only other thing that worries me is the Sabertooth as a starting unit.
Damn, I should be sleeping, but the rat's got a new video.
it's not that long fortunately!
Seems like a band-aid patch.
I'm sure the nerf to chain will help, but the ability to hit squishy backline units despite there being an active frontline is something that breaks the game.
This is like the Steel Ball upgrade that makes them target highest HP in that it breaks the core tactics of formations... but a better comparison might be 'Imagine a tech for Stormcallers that makes them target the furthest unit out first.' because of just how badly that would shatter formation building.
I think chaining to buildings was really big issue, glad they adressed that
The biggest problem with chain at its current jump range is how often it's doing this damage when they are stacked. Attack speed nerf helps, but it needs to fire even less shots because many raidens are (still) too unwieldy. If the point of the tech is to pierce to backline, they should balance it to do what it does because the "range limitation" and attack speed nerfs aren't enough to keep it from taking over the game. If Chain fills the anti-backline niche, it needs to have proper tradeoffs so that it isn't spammable and requires actual support from the rest of the board.
Ionization will be a really good counter to WF. I went into Training Grounds and it will almost 50% it on the 1st shot. You just need to have finishing power to support it because it doesn't do anything to medium to low (remaining) HP units.
Ionization to me is the inverse to the melting points “Energy Defraction” and mimics the melting point in terms of performance. It can very risky. If you click that button you cannot unclick it.
its the emp on chain which invalidates wf entire existence
Oh it was actually just a raiden patch, I watch half expecting another random aggro nerf XD
Even at 100 it's hard to justify bringing ionization when other techs are so impactful. The fact that it sucks against raidens (which everyone is using) probably doesn't help either
ionize should deal part normal damage, part % of current HP and part % of max HP
I wonder if it ever becomes more economical or worth it to go a level 1 ionise raiden instead of a melter against a bunch of intensive training'd or high level sabers, fortresses, overlords etc. if you're losing. like it's not going to live long at all if it gets hit but if you can clear the chaff there might be that angle where you can't afford a range melter but you can get this?? idk could still be shit
for sure, there's also the unit drops so its better to use the one you get for free to counter something
The range is still too high, no? Idk i guess we'll see
Rejoice!
To me, the changes don't solve the issues as far as I can tell.
The primary issue is "what is the fantasy of the Raiden." As far as I can tell, the idea is that it's a shotgun that can blast medium-tier groups. So sledges, Typhoons, Balls - stuff like that. The PROBLEM is that it's not only a shotgun, it's actually got the range of fangs + it can clear chaffe + it can apply EMP to everything to hits. Chain hitting buildings and backlines was obviously bad. They did stop buildings from getting hit, but they didn't change the chaffe clear and backline damage of chain that much. Enough Raidens will still obliterate a backline with chain. The problem is that the damage delivery of this unit is simply too efficient. It is not a localized AOE - every shot deals 100% damage. Chain is the most efficient tech in the game and basically works like a battlefield-wide version of the Melting Point. Rather than a Melting Point scaling up its damage against one target, enough Raidens scales up a powerful enough opening salvo to completely clear the battlefield of chaffe and mid-tier threats instantly.
Their nerfs here really didn't address the problems with the unit imo.
What they should do:
option 1: just remove chain.
this pretty much fixes the problem instantly, because now there is no way to amass a "critical mass" of raidens that can instantly clear the battlefield. Even with fork, the cost of Raiden makes getting enough of them with only fork too high to ever actually achieve this kind of critical mass.
option 2:
keep chain, but drastically increase the attack interval on the tech.
or
drastically shorten range
Again, the problem is that unlike other AOE or chaffe clears, the unit has 100% efficiency in its damage delivery if Chain is taken. One option is to make it simply attack far less frequently. "Chain causes attack interval to double" would be a potentially reasonable trade off. Alternatively, lean into the "shotgun" fantasy and make this thing SUPER close range. By forcing it to engage much more closely, now the opponent has range supremacy options or stall tactics available, and the raiden player cannot just put them safely in the backline - much more thought is required when it comes to deploying them since they aren't a very tanky unit. You wouldn't want these to be front lining, but they will have to push up to actually attack, which reduces their disgusting efficiency (which is the root problem of the unit).
Really I think the issue isn't the initial range of Raiden but the range of the chain coupled with the random nature of the bounce.
Either make chain range 20 or make it target close to far
Improve A/M on sabretooths and nerf Farseer
What nerf to farseer would you propose?
@@daviddobarganes9115 I don't actually know, it just seems to be a strong swiss army knife, good range, speed, toughness, DPS, fast missiles, air and ground attack, supporting techs. I can't think of any glaring weaknesses. It's my favourite unit for these reasons and I often see it being the last unit on the board in a tight game more than others.
man, im so bummed out with the Raiden. I totally lost interest in Mechabelum. plz remove Raiden entierly or i never will come back
It's entirely possible to nerf it into the ground, to the point of total uselessness. (Not that they should do that, of course, but my point is that there's no need to remove it entirely when severe nerfs are a possibility.)
Nooooo, I love the Raiden. It's so dam fun.
Never had any issue with Raiden EVER. Stormcallers piss me off every time.
well build some raidens, that will fix the stormcaller issue :)
Play for the late and get some chaff to distract them, crawlers with the move command are great against callers, also mustang are better at countering storm callers now