At some point Zack Snyder had to say, "I'll throw in Jimmy Olsen & Mercy for the fans and almost immediately kill them so those fans know I hate comic book fans."
I've avoided these like the plague because I knew Zack was litterally incapable of doing even a mediocre job. didn't know he had fucking killed Jimmy Olsen, thats actually hilarious. sounds like it perfectly encapsulates why Zack is the worst choice short of dinesh d'souza
***Spoilers*** Man the writers HATED Superman, Louis Lane is a hostage, he gets framed for the Africa incident, he gets framed for the explosion in the senate, Louis gets kidnaped, Superman mom's gets kidnaped, he gets his ass kicked by batman, he gets nuked, and then he dies.
prototypex11z I'm well aware that Darkseid is the villain. Superman will be serving under him. Darkseid has manipulated Superman into working for him before and its a very popular subplot so they're probably going to bring it back.
"Be a hero or don't. You owe this world nothing" -Martha kent to clark (Bvs) "With great power comes great responsibility" -Uncle ben to Peter (Spider-man)
+InitialXG Superman was the first superhero to have a lesson on power and responsibility. But DC Comics figured that raping Superman to promote Batman is a good idea, from 1986 until 2011 especially, and going back to that crybaby, doormat, Superman now with the DCEU and New 52 stupidity by bringing back the old crybaby Superman. Superman swore on the Kents' grave in 1938 that he would use his powers for good. (1 year before Batman and almost 25 years before Spider-Man) New 52 Superman promised his injured and dying adoptive father, Jonathan Kent, that he would use his powers to be a hero. DC butchered the respectability of Superman as a hero for years starting after Crisis on Infinite Earths, and getting ramped up after around 2002, and now people wonder why so many people hate him. I don't buy Post-Crisis Superman, because he sucks as a fictional hero in that time period. I am not buying him as the main Superman after rebirth either. But I do collect Pre-Crisis versions of him, because back then, they liked making Superman either goofy and a joke, or the ideal of hope back then.
You had some really good points. They've totally lost what the Superman character is supposed to be about and what superheroes are supposed to be about in general. Thanks.
Finally! A reviewer who talks about the characters' personality in the movie in comparison with the comics. And about the 2 different groups of fans. Excellent video, Steve! Thank you for the enlightenment.
I am a DC fan who's been reaing this stuff for literally sixty years. Batman vs Superman: Dawn of Justice is the only film that i have ever wanted to get up and walk out of the cinema after only thirty minutes.
+suemorphplus2009 It even made me miss the Brandon Routh movie. I'm not even joking. The Routh movie was a bit shitty, but at least it had a clear narrative.
suemorphplus2009 YES! It would have been nice to see him use his ice breath and at least TRY and rescue some people. Even if they all died, just seeing him make the effort would have been a heroic side we get to see of him. It's something I wanted to see in MoS. During the Zod fight, if we saw him try and rescue people but they fall to there deaths, it would show his attempt at heroism, and it would also help justify snapping Zods neck. After seeing men, women and children die, no one is going to argue with seeing Zod die.
eon001 Letting Zod out of your grip and/or sightgives him freedom to murder and destroy at will. You had a villain with God-powers that was way inferior to a lot of the problems in Dawn of Justice. The bomb scene in Dawn of Justice was way worse because he didn't have to fight a dude with God powers in Dawn of Justice. Same with Africa, he had a bunch of normal guys who didn't even have Kryptonite, so he could have caught up with the guys driving away interrogated them with broken legs and crap and made them fess up that Lex Luthor paid them to commit mass murder, then still have time to administer help afterwards. There was a reason why I liked the New 52 Superman and Pre-Crisis Superman, either one actually did an interesting job at not giving up saving people. Post-Crisis Superman was a horrible person, he left a bunch of wounded teammates behind after being revitalized from his fight with Hank Henshaw just to kiss his love interest. What I hope people realize is that what Snyder/Goyer/Terrio are giving you is the Superman plenty of people came to hate from 1986-2011. The one who was hopelessly stuck prioritizing his love interest's life above the rest of the world. Something that DC needs to grow out of and embrace Pre-Crisis for his excellent attitude and unrealistic goodness, rather than screwing Superman, and making him a pathetic crybaby, for the sake of promoting Batman.
suemorphplus2009 _"Letting Zod out of your grip and/or sightgives him freedom to murder and destroy at will."_ This is true, and maybe I didn't explain myself correctly, but I just wanted to have a moment where Superman actually see's the body count, maybe sheds a tear, then makes that decision to take out Zod. At that moment all the fans would not debate a neck snap. But that's just me.
eon001 Okay, I get you there. Yes, there wasn't really anything shown AFTER the fight in Man of Steel. I liked to assume that Superman did something to save people or clean some things up after the fight was over. But seriously, the combination of What Goyer/Terrio/Snyder and what the top guys at DC Comics have been doing to Superman for decades has been stupid as hell, and they probably don't even know that they are making him unattractive. Superman having lower sales than Pre-Crisis was the whole reason they did the entire New 52 reboot in the first place. Perhaps the one case where I liked Superman recently was in Justice League War, Justice League: Throne of Atlantis, and Justice League vs. Teen Titans. That animated version of Superman actually saves people in spite of a fight going on. Some people make a bitchy deal about how the current animated Superman isn't banging Lois Lane, but I could care less that he is kissing Diana Prince/Wonder Woman, given how unlike Dawn of Justice, he doesn't let so many people die while placing that Wonder Woman character as a priority for saving the life of others in those movies.
Its a great speech to show how aware he is of his power and what he can do when he is pushed to the very edge, but yeah that shouldnt be his default characterization.
"The movie makes a case that superheroes are lawless and reckless and irresponsible..." When you put it like that I think somebody made a movie that looks at heroes kind of like that. I think it was called Watchmen. Huh, could you imagine if they picked that guy to make a Superman movie. They would have to be out of their minds to pick the guy who spent an entire film deconstructing superheroes and making them seem like the absolute worst to make a movie about such a bright and colourful hero like Superman. Oh what I wouldn't give to live in a world where I can say that and have it be true.
"The Boys" show gives off that message better. Because it's from the perspective of the people that have to suffer through it. (Then it's about celebrity worship, corporate greed, government failures, MCU parodies, & Supervillain celebrities.)
I wish they would show on screen the sequence from Allstar Superman when he is rushing somewhere and overhears among other things a psychiatrist urgently trying to tell his patient to hold on because his train is delayed. Later the sequence cuts to a girl on a ledge about to jump dropping her phone off. The next panel Superman is behind her. He tells her that her doctor's train really is delayed. Then he tells her she is stronger than she realizes. That is how you show that Superman is good.
The absolute best review I have seen of Batman v Superman. I have seen almost all of them. This guy hit it totally on the nail. Thanks for the great thoughtful review!
Every response to this movie makes me more and more glad that I declared myself done after Man of Steel. I knew the moment they announced they were making a DC universe out of that movie that it wasn’t for me, because you cannot make a good DC comics franchise if your starting point is a movie for people who hate Superman made by people who hate Superman. You literally cannot do it. And time proved me right on that front.
I found Man of Steel MORE disappointing than Batman v Superman (I did find Batman v Superman disappointing too, just not quite as much). It was Jonathan Kent's stupid death scene that did that movie in for me. The 1978 movie already did it perfectly! "All these things I can do, all these powers, and I couldn't save him." Showing that even SUPERMAN was powerless to do anything about his adopted father having a heart attack. In this one he just walks into a tornado and is like "don't save me because you have to stay secret"...um what?
the DCCU superman is bad because the DCCU Kents are bad. Jonathan and Martha are suppose to be Clark's example of how good humanity can be and to be his moral compass. but these Kents have done nothing but teach Clark to be selfish his whole life and that people aren't worth saving.
Having Jonathon Kent die in a tornado that his son easily could have saved him from was absolutely maddening. The whole point of the heart attack, in various comic, movie and television interpretations of Superman is that for all his powers, for all his strength, Superman isn't a god and does have limitations. That is critical to the character because it gives him a lot of grounding about who he is and what he is capable of. It's humbling. What Snyder did was just flat out stupid. It shows a complete lack of understanding about the character and why he does what he does and who he is as a person.
It’s very satisfying to watch a review by somebody smarter and more knowledgeable than myself who also did not really care for the movie. I didn’t see a review of Robert Pattinson’s 2022 “The Batman” in your feed, which is maybe for the best.
Geahk Burchill I'm the opposite, grew up reading Marvel with a couple of DC titles here and there (mostly Vertigo). I love what Marvel's been doing in their cinematic universe but I'm also rooting for DC movies to be successful. It saddens me that they're letting Snyder mess it up for them. And yeah, I'm hoping Suicide Squad and the rest will better too
Two and a half minutes in and this video is already a favourite. Steve Chives gets it: Superman is my fave all time hero, but I've always liked Batman too, only I've increasingly suspected that why I like Batman (reasoned, stoic, principled detective) is very different from why other people like Batman (badass fighter who always wins).
Batman v Superman is what you get when you try to force Ayn Rand's ideology on to superheroes. It does not work! Snyder is a follower of Ayn Rand and he tried to impose those values on to our greatest heroes and it's clearly oil and water.
It's why Clark's parent's sounded like such lunatics. They were spouting straight up Rand philosphy and we all did a spit take and said, "WHAT THE HELL ARE THEY TALKING ABOUT??"
His parents basically told him that other people don’t matter and you should only matter and you should only worry about yourself. That kind of advice is bad for a man, it’s abhorrent for a Superman!
Whiny, entitled, juvenile man-children incapable of compromise and demanding the entire world change to conform to their shallow, selfish desires and are lauded for being and doing so. It's no wonder Rand resonates so strongly with the conservative teenage male. Also, she's an artless, boring writer whose prose is some of the least captivating I've ever attempted to read. I guess my mistake was being in my '20s when I attempted it.
the conflict between bats and supes shud have been that supes is sick of hearing about a vigilante who is killing criminals and that he must stop him, and at the same time this shows bats that supes wud even protect criminals knowing they deserve their day in court rather than be murdered or branded by bats and maybe out of that, bats changes his ways and then whatever anger he has for supes due to the events of man of steel he forgives supes, knowing he is a good guy, with true justice in mind.
People seem to be ignoring that Henry Cavill's Superman has only had a 1 and a half year old career in BvS and yet you expect him to be like he has been around for decades.
+Jason Norris Good point, plus didn't Superman in Superman 3 actually put out a factory fire, after he pulled the other guys out. I personally am liking the animated movies right now. Sadly, they are not Superman solo movies, but Superman actually saves people in the animated Justice League movies while in a fight (War, Throne of Atlantis, Justice League vs. Teen Titans) what is up with that?
suemorphplus2009 You know that in Superman 3, Superman TAS and in the Justice League cartoon no one card about Superman being an alien and 9/11 never happened to make the people as scared and paranoid they are in the DCEU. Also those same people do thank Superman for what he does in all those other mediums, but in BvS because it's set in a post 9/11 world and everyone knows Superman is an alien, almost no one thanks him for the good work he attempts to do and keep on discouraging him from doing anything good. It's not just Superman's fault, the people are to blame too.
Superman not interested in saving people? Was there no one in that spaceship cockpit? What was he holding when he flew into those people that I thought was a child being returned to their families as people were touching Superman on the way down? Why did he take Doomsday into space? Why did he fight Doomsday at all?
+Brett Dupree I thought it was a perfect representation of Zack Snyder's own interest in it - it was nothing more than a chore for him. Since it's obvious that Snyder could care less about Superman saving people, we get a < 2 minute obligatory montage of Superman having rescued people with a sour look on his face. So much fail.
***** "That's not Superman, that's Batman mixed with Spider-Man." Eeew. Please don't insult Batman and Spider-Man like that. They're my #2 and #3 behind Superman.
I've had fun trying to pick which emotion steve's feeling in the first 10 seconds: anger, sorrow, confusion, regret, etc. best 10 seconds of silence on TH-cam ;)
I wonder if you had a chance to read "Superman Smashes the Klan" yet... It's probably the best, truly heroic Superman story I've read in a *LONG* time.
I won't say this is the worst movie I've ever seen. It certainly wasn't great. The extended edition helped some, but the whole thing was pretty disappointing. You could tell they were just wanting to jump directly to a Justice League movie to "catch up" to the MCU, despite not having movies to introduce any of these characters. Even at the best points, it felt like jumping into the middle of a story and then rushing through things as quickly as possible to get to the fight scenes. Hey, it's better than Nemesis! Not that that's a very high bar. I actually found Man of Steel a little more disappointing than this. Jonathan Kent's death was the most disappointing part of that movie. When the entire point of his death in the original was "all these things I can do, all these powers, and I couldn't save him". Then in Man of Steel he's like "no you can't save me because noone can know who you are!" and he just goes with it like it makes sense.
What should have been done is a real Man of Steel sequel where Superman is properly introduced to the world and has the chance to become the true hero that people can look up to and he even grows to accept his role instead of feeling it to be a burden upon him. Then there should have been a separate Batman movie that shows what has pushed him so far over the edge (Robin dying presumably) and go as dark as Zak Snyder wants to take him........ THEN they could do a Superman V Batman movie where Superman feels he needs to face down Batman, during which he eventually helps Batman regain his fractured sense of justice. That would be a more natural setup and character progression.... just my humble opinion.
Yeah, that would be true, but since DC and marvel lean on movies for money, and business speculation is that superhero movies will make less money, and marvel succeeded in making so much money on their movies, DC is in panic mode
This is the finest, most perfect review of this movie ever put to TH-cam, and the reasons put here are the very reasons I threw out my dvd copy of Batman vs Superman, some years ago.
Superman and Lois gives us arguably the best interpretation of Superman since Christopher Reeve (RIP). So my question is how is the same company able to make such a perfect representation on TV while completely destroying everything the character stands for over on the film side? During the Netflix years there was good reason that those shows had a totally different tone than the films. They were made by a different company essentially. Now that everything is back under Kevin Feige's control everything has that same Marvel polish if a bit of sameness. They had to fight to get all those characters back under the MCYU banner. WB had a gift and had all their most popular characters under one roof and could've done something amazing. Instead they wasted all this time and made some of the worst superhero movies possible. Now they have the people on the TV side making some pretty great versions of those characters while the films can't seem to decide what they want to do. It's all under the same banner so why are they able to do such great work one day and make utter crap the next? Who is actually running things over there? Where's the quality control to make sure their legacy characters are being taken care of? They have squandered such an incredible opportunity to do something Marvel hasn't been able to do and bring their biggest heroes together. What's amazing to me is even now they still don't quite know how to make it work because every decision is almost damage control from the last decision and they're still pushing things out without stepping back to look at what they have and deciding on a clear course of action. The Flash movie is a perfect example. The first Flash film should not be based on Flashpoint without a road map to what happens next. They're bringing back Keaton but that feels like damage control and something to get people excited and distracted from the fact that while they're treading water Marvel is past their first major storyline and moving onto Secret Invasion and Secret Wars because they have things planned out for years and they took the time to do it. If the X-Men belonged to DC I guarantee they would've cranked out an X-Men movie without any consideration for how best to utilize such popular and diverse characters. It's kind of incredible that despite knowing how much people want the X-Men back they are holding off till they have everything set up for maximum impact. How did DC screw things up so bad and let Marvel and their B and C tier characters beat the likes of Superman and Wonder Woman. When Justice League came out people were more excited for Thor Ragnarok and that was after the first two Thor films basically flopped with audiences. It's baffling the string of poor decision making that got them to this point. If they keep letting Marvel get the jump on them they'll never get back to where they need to be. All they really have is Batman and they're playing that card way too often with at least 3 version as well as Batgirl and Batwoman out there at the same time this year alone.
regarding the WW "bitch" thing .... there was that one scene where Burce goes: "I've known women like you my whole life" .... guess, they were being subtle :))) In any case, thank you for this review ... it expresses everything I felt while watching this film.
Major "Misses" for this movie, in my opinion: 1. Young Bruce levitating with bats in the opening flashback. This was pointed out to me later as a dream sequence, but I missed that. Set a bad tone. 2. Alfred not ragging HARD on Batman for going too far with guns and branding, or even quitting over it. 3. Superman not stopping all the other guys with military hardware when Batman was chasing the Kryptonite in the truck, or even asking why. 4. Superman not starting Lex's arranged confrontation with Batman by saying, "Lex Luthor is holding my mom hostage."
12:50 "I can imagine Zack Snyder walking out of the theater with a fucking erection" Dude, LMFAO!!! That literally cracked me the fuck up and I had to pause the review for that! xD
"superheroes are lawless and reckless and not to be trusted or looked up to" you do realize you just described Alan Moore's original concept for Watchmen? so ironically Zack Synder's BVS is a lot more of a watchmen film than the 2009 Watchmen film
Let the Truth set you free. You said it. You literally said every effing thing that's been on my mind, that I've been telling everyone since opening week of this utter letdown of a crapfest. Good on ya. Subscribed. Now back to reading comics & waiting for Dr. Strange. =)
One moment that got me riled up is that the moment that caused Batman to inevitably put aside his differences with Superman is because they both happen to have mothers who are named Martha. It isn't that he realizes that they're both being played, it isn't because he sees that he is causing just as much destruction as Superman caused, it isn't that there's a bigger threat on the horizon that they both have to deal with. It's a bit of "did you know?" trivia.
Excellent chug to start… I’m sure that was a necessary first step to talking about Snyder’s shitshow. I would quibble with you a bit about Eisenberg’s performance as Luthor. It’s true the character was written as a loony caricature of a neurotic villain, but I think it was Eisenberg’s choice to dial those charming character traits up to 11. I do have to give them points for the way they introduced Wonder Woman though. The moment when she dropped in to save Batman from Doomsday’s heat vision was about the first time in the film that I stopped praying for death’s sweet release. Bravo & well done, Sir!
I've been subscribed to you since ... I don't even know. I tried you go through your videos to see exactly when I subscribed and noticed that there is nothing past 3 years ago. And I have been subscribed for more, I am sure. I was there when you introduced "And now the good news" and "You had to ask" Series. You were the first person to like Superman Returns when you reviewed it and basically for the same reason as I did. But since the early days you have changed. Most people would consider it such a change as to unsubscribe but I haven't and I won't.[1] Because I think it is healthy to be exposed to opposing or differing viewpoints as it makes understanding the world a much easier task. [2] There are still some things we agree on.
Steve when I got home from BvS my kid was watching "Garfield Pet Force," and it gave me an entirely new perspective, not only on BvS but on Snyder's entire filmography and really all of human communication. At one point in Pet Force, Arlene the cat gets super powers and pops out great big boobs. Really makes you think maybe Batman killing people isn't so bad.
As soon as I saw that face, I was thinking "this isn't going to be like the beer for 'The Force Awakens', is it?" And then, when you poured that second shot in there…
+Kristi Winters Good choice. Saw B v S yesterday and it made me want Deadpool to make a cameo (despite coming from the other side) and mock how self-serious and boring the whole affair was. :P
No more on the branding? Why would inmates attack someone branded by Batman? Branded by Joker makes some sense. Batman? None. I'm also glad you noticed the time honored film saying: "Tell, don't show." And, Ayn Rand...
DC needs Christopher Nolan to come back and rewrite, direct, edit all of these movies because no movie featuring Batman and Superman together should be given a rating similar to Deadpool's Green Lantern. (BvS:DoJ=27% GL=26%)
I feel you Steve. That expresses EXACTLY what I felt when I saw Star Trek (2009) as a long-time Trek fan. That aspirationaI quality in Trek is what got me through some hard times and was totally missing in Abrams creation (at least for me). I have refused to watch any Trek movies on the big screen after that--which is sad because this is the 50th Anniversary. It's amazing how much we can hold these works of fiction so beloved (and in some strange ways so sacred).
I'll put this on "You had to ask" as well, but... Do you think part of the problem is that film makers want to tell different stories but have to use the same stock of characters? To explore the question of "Can a god be good" you don't want Superman, because it's his thing to be good. A different character might be better to explore that question but it probably wouldn't sell. I guess my question is, is BvS and other character breaking movies a case of right story, wrong character?
When you look at superman you're supposed to see someone noble, someone who is just a great person. You know, the way you look at Christopher Lee during his interviews and just think "Waw, what an excellent man". When I look at this Superman I think: "Was it really necessary to just fly straight through that building, asshole? People need that, you know. Bet you're not going to help fix it, either. You seriously couldn't think of any other way you could approach this problem?" The problem is not the killing and destruction. The problem is how the killing and destruction are not a big deal. Buildings crumble, people are murdered, and it's not regarded as a failure. And fuck Dick Cheney logic - the whole 'Superman might not be a threat, but just to be on the safe side, better take it as an absolute threat' line - Replace Superman with 'muslims' and you have Trump logic.
+Mark Arandjus I agree. Superman is supposed to be beyond reproach. I do understand innocents being killed with Zod because you have, well, two gods fighting even though he didn't do much to attempt to minimize the damage in any way there. Batman is supposed to almost counter superman. Instead of being beyond reproach, he lurks in the shadows, truly someone to be feared, but at the same time never crossing the line of murder.
Double shot boilermaker gets an auto thumbs up. I'll be doing a live discussion on it tonight at 9:30 EDT with Michael and Tim from USANS. Michael liked it, Tim and I did not.
I think that the film totally reaches the ideas of the first group of fans you mention. Towards the end we see that the characters have learned the importance of heroes. The story follows a world that's lost faith in heroship, which is why they're attacking superman so much and it's why batman is so brutal. By the end, however, batman has learned a little restraint, not branding luthor, and the world begins to understand that there's still hope for humanity. They come together once again to honor a fallen idol.
They blew their "we killed superman" load in the second film of the whole series. See, what dc wanted was avengers, but they didn't want to do the work to GET there. Now batman full on shoots people right out of the gate, and they've already killed Supes. Oh, brainiac is in the next one and is threatening superman? Who cares, you already killed him once.
+tyrongkojy they could have built up to batman cracking and shooting. It's happened in the comics. It CAN make sense for baman to murder people, given the right motivation. Again, it's HAPPENED. But they didn't earn it. There was no build up. It might have been fun to do that, to build to the Injustice story. They HAVE the time traveller (likely Flash), but no. At this point they did NOT earn this point of the story.
+tyrongkojy This would be the only way I could ever accept him murdering people. I mean we have comics where he's lost people and it only motivates Batman to be better (still not killing) at what he does. I mean he never kills the Joker even after A Death in the Family.
+tyrongkojy No one bought that Superman was dead. No one could. Not only did they pull this 10 years ago with Superman Returns but unlike Superman Returns were we had no idea if there would ever be another Superman movie and thereby leaving room for doubt, this time there is no room. We know there's going to be a DC Cinematic Universe. We know the next movie is the Justice League. It's a joke that comic book characters never stay dead and Zack Synder jumped head first into that joke with his second installment.
+R.J. Grayson But bats HAS been crazed enough and HAS killed in several comics. Sometimes it depends on the author, but he's done it. But yes, DC certainly has been inconsistent.... that's less the character though, and more the company, which has its own share of issues in regards to these things.
Like I said it's been explored by better writers. And furthermore they always insist that it's not cannon later. Again, he started on his career as a vigilante because his parents were murdered in front of them. Part of the gauntlet for his sidekicks and folks that work with him is them not killing the people that wronged them. A Batman that kills IS poor characterization and he wouldn't do it. It's the easy way out.
okay... where do we find the happy place...? People/Fans didn't like Superman returns & the audience is split on Man of Steel... so where do we want to actually see this character go?
I might still watch this film for the simple reason that Zack Snyder directed Watchmen, which is definitely my favourite American superhero-esque film (I include 'esque' because someone recently pointed out to me that, apparently, 'superhero' is a copyrighted term, which I found hard to believe). Of course, I've heard nothing to suggest that this film is any way in the same class as Watchmen, but since Watchmen was widely despised by certain sections of the film-going world, I'll still probably give it a go.
To add to your last point, Watchmen was also released in the form of a chopped up theatrical cut, just like Batman V Superman. I wasn't too fond with the version I saw in the theatre, so I will save my overall thoughts on the film when I see the Ultimate (Snyder's intended) Version on Blu Ray. Same case with Watchmen, which the Director's Cut is my personal favourite in the genre.
mlee2001 It was the heat of the moment where he was busy doing something else. And nowhere in the movie when he was fighting hand to hand did he use guns.
Eric S Nowhere in KGBeast's body. Batman didn't aim anywhere in his body. He didn't go for a kill shot. And that other guy stabbed Batman first to his right shoulder, exactly where Batman put the knife back. You stab someone on the shoulder, that just hurts, it doesn't kill.
+Arttu Lehmonen Don't quote me on this, but the knife seemed a little closer to the heart or a lung. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just saying what I am 85% sure happened.
So basically u want superman to fly around rescuing cats from trees and batman to do the bat dance to defeat the evil pengiun who is wearing a top hat and monocle. Smash hit right there
I agree with Steve on all his criticisms about the film as an actual film. I just kind of disagree that we can't have a movie that talks about the moral ambiguity of having heroes. I understand the argument that heroes have to try their hardest to rescue others. But sometimes the choice isn't so clear, especially was the case in Man of steel.
+Kylo Ren They hinted at some of these things about Batman's moral compass, has to do more with feeling impotent due to Superman's presence. Also we were given an incomplete movie, when you trim 30-45 min and you leave out scenes like Clark Kent investigating in Gotham... you miss out on characterization scenes. Overall I still think the movie is pretty bold despite being poorly planned or edited. Fails as a movie, the second hour is. a complete drag. The ending is almost undeserved. But I can say I enjoyed it's allegories to Greek tragedy and baroque religious art which is more than I can say about any of the recent comicbook films.
***** Well there were a few scenes demonstrating his moral compass. First it was the scene with alfred saying "everything has changed", another being lex luthor suggesting that Bruce's anger has been brewing for two years, lastly Batman does not brand Luthor after the death of Superman even though its stated he has branded a total of 2 in the mean time. The film does not do a good job in having the audience digest these things. I have seen major websites and movie reviewers contradict evidence of the film. For example Cracked held a discussion questioning why would Lex luthor care about introducing clark kent, a reporter, and Bruce Wayne, a billionaire, when he doesn't know their alter egos. However, the film shows evidence that Lex has known the truth behind the heroes alias' all along. That of course is the responsibility of the film makers to have these explanations easily digested for everyone (general audience, fans, and critics). The film is incredibly frustrating. But I admire its bold attempts... While I would rate something like your avatar, The force awakens, a higher score as a overall film. I was more engaged by BvS by its attempts to be different than the recent crop of blockbusters.
What is becoming clear to me is that the DC division of WB hasn't had a lot of good direction since The Dark Knight. The problem is that Marvel has launched what I can only describe as a massive cinematic blitzkrieg, and while DC was wrapping up their "Dark Knight Trilogy" (which kind of fell flat in Dark Knight Rises) Marvel was launching this massive campaign that began with Ironman and has now snowballed into this movie phenomenon that DC is now desperately trying to copy without taking the time or effort to plan things out or do the legwork Marvel has done establishing their characters, their relationships or the world they inhabit. DC put a man in charge who very clearly does not grasp the subtle intricacies of the characters he's attempting to portray (and who I think possibly has something akin to low level autism given some of his bizarre actions and statements) all while the DC/WB brass trash Marvel in the press while getting their butts handed to them in the ratings and at the box office in a vain attempt to convince fans that they're the "smart" comic book movie guys.
I go back and forth on Dark Knight Rises, the parts with Bruce and Bane slugging it out, like the two fights between them, are amazing. The parts with Talia and Joe Gordon Levitts character really seem to fall flat to me. I'm sure the death of Heath Ledger threw off their plans, and they had to amend things, but the third movie just seems a little forced at times. I think part of of my criticism of the Dark Knight Rises is Dark Knight was a superb film. That movie was just so solid it really took things to another level and raised the bar for superhero movies. I don't know maybe that's just me, if you enjoyed it then that's great, I'm glad you liked it. I just think they should have done a few things a little differently.
@@pittland44 There's no confirmation that Nolan intended for The Joker to be in Rises. He was focusing on one film at a time and wasn't interested in retreading The Dark Knight. I also disagree heavily on John Blake and Talia Al Ghul. John was a skilled and recourseful detective who helped save Gotham City and his arc was built up for him to become the next savior which is fitting. Talia infiltrated Wayne Enterprises to help Bane and their League take over and manipulated Bruce Wayne into trusting her. The overall film works and capped off the trilogy successfully.
BvS is a tragedy. A tragedy in the classical sense, with revenge in the middle, used as an organising principle for the narrative. You say that the film wants to be ... Indeed, the film IS. Each of the three main characters has his arc, and none of them ends up being the same man who was at the start of it (near the end, Batman refuses himself to brand Lex Luthor, which would have meant his death sentence). The film shows us a humanity struggling for the better despite our own capacity for evil. I do not think BvS was devoid of hope, or any theme that they dropped halfway to engage in mayhem and violence. None of these heroes is endowed with the gift of perfection. They must strive to approach it.
Captain America Civil War had a revenge motive in the sense of Black Panther, but the story of how that played out was superior to Dawn of Justice. Even as someone where most of the characters I like are DC, with Spider-Man being an exception, I have to admit that.
Best pull quote from a review: "It's like a series of pop up ads for future movies you don't want to see."
At some point Zack Snyder had to say, "I'll throw in Jimmy Olsen & Mercy for the fans and almost immediately kill them so those fans know I hate comic book fans."
Yeah, that one still hurts.
I've avoided these like the plague because I knew Zack was litterally incapable of doing even a mediocre job. didn't know he had fucking killed Jimmy Olsen, thats actually hilarious.
sounds like it perfectly encapsulates why Zack is the worst choice short of dinesh d'souza
***Spoilers*** Man the writers HATED Superman, Louis Lane is a hostage, he gets framed for the Africa incident, he gets framed for the explosion in the senate, Louis gets kidnaped, Superman mom's gets kidnaped, he gets his ass kicked by batman, he gets nuked, and then he dies.
+Yehuda Zeytim Don't forget that he'll be the bad guy in Justice League.
+IllCaesar actually Darksied is the villain. Get your facts right.
prototypex11z I'm well aware that Darkseid is the villain. Superman will be serving under him. Darkseid has manipulated Superman into working for him before and its a very popular subplot so they're probably going to bring it back.
"Be a hero or don't. You owe this world nothing"
-Martha kent to clark
(Bvs)
"With great power comes great responsibility"
-Uncle ben to Peter
(Spider-man)
+InitialXG Superman was the first superhero to have a lesson on power and responsibility. But DC Comics figured that raping Superman to promote Batman is a good idea, from 1986 until 2011 especially, and going back to that crybaby, doormat, Superman now with the DCEU and New 52 stupidity by bringing back the old crybaby Superman. Superman swore on the Kents' grave in 1938 that he would use his powers for good. (1 year before Batman and almost 25 years before Spider-Man) New 52 Superman promised his injured and dying adoptive father, Jonathan Kent, that he would use his powers to be a hero. DC butchered the respectability of Superman as a hero for years starting after Crisis on Infinite Earths, and getting ramped up after around 2002, and now people wonder why so many people hate him. I don't buy Post-Crisis Superman, because he sucks as a fictional hero in that time period. I am not buying him as the main Superman after rebirth either. But I do collect Pre-Crisis versions of him, because back then, they liked making Superman either goofy and a joke, or the ideal of hope back then.
You had some really good points. They've totally lost what the Superman character is supposed to be about and what superheroes are supposed to be about in general. Thanks.
Finally! A reviewer who talks about the characters' personality in the movie in comparison with the comics. And about the 2 different groups of fans.
Excellent video, Steve! Thank you for the enlightenment.
I am a DC fan who's been reaing this stuff for literally sixty years. Batman vs Superman: Dawn of Justice is the only film that i have ever wanted to get up and walk out of the cinema after only thirty minutes.
This movie made me miss Christopher Reeve movies... REALLY, REALLY, BAD...
+suemorphplus2009 It even made me miss the Brandon Routh movie. I'm not even joking. The Routh movie was a bit shitty, but at least it had a clear narrative.
suemorphplus2009 YES! It would have been nice to see him use his ice breath and at least TRY and rescue some people. Even if they all died, just seeing him make the effort would have been a heroic side we get to see of him. It's something I wanted to see in MoS. During the Zod fight, if we saw him try and rescue people but they fall to there deaths, it would show his attempt at heroism, and it would also help justify snapping Zods neck. After seeing men, women and children die, no one is going to argue with seeing Zod die.
eon001
Letting Zod out of your grip and/or sightgives him freedom to murder and destroy at will. You had a villain with God-powers that was way inferior to a lot of the problems in Dawn of Justice. The bomb scene in Dawn of Justice was way worse because he didn't have to fight a dude with God powers in Dawn of Justice. Same with Africa, he had a bunch of normal guys who didn't even have Kryptonite, so he could have caught up with the guys driving away interrogated them with broken legs and crap and made them fess up that Lex Luthor paid them to commit mass murder, then still have time to administer help afterwards. There was a reason why I liked the New 52 Superman and Pre-Crisis Superman, either one actually did an interesting job at not giving up saving people. Post-Crisis Superman was a horrible person, he left a bunch of wounded teammates behind after being revitalized from his fight with Hank Henshaw just to kiss his love interest. What I hope people realize is that what Snyder/Goyer/Terrio are giving you is the Superman plenty of people came to hate from 1986-2011. The one who was hopelessly stuck prioritizing his love interest's life above the rest of the world. Something that DC needs to grow out of and embrace Pre-Crisis for his excellent attitude and unrealistic goodness, rather than screwing Superman, and making him a pathetic crybaby, for the sake of promoting Batman.
suemorphplus2009 _"Letting Zod out of your grip and/or sightgives him freedom to murder and destroy at will."_ This is true, and maybe I didn't explain myself correctly, but I just wanted to have a moment where Superman actually see's the body count, maybe sheds a tear, then makes that decision to take out Zod. At that moment all the fans would not debate a neck snap. But that's just me.
eon001
Okay, I get you there. Yes, there wasn't really anything shown AFTER the fight in Man of Steel. I liked to assume that Superman did something to save people or clean some things up after the fight was over. But seriously, the combination of What Goyer/Terrio/Snyder and what the top guys at DC Comics have been doing to Superman for decades has been stupid as hell, and they probably don't even know that they are making him unattractive. Superman having lower sales than Pre-Crisis was the whole reason they did the entire New 52 reboot in the first place.
Perhaps the one case where I liked Superman recently was in Justice League War, Justice League: Throne of Atlantis, and Justice League vs. Teen Titans. That animated version of Superman actually saves people in spite of a fight going on. Some people make a bitchy deal about how the current animated Superman isn't banging Lois Lane, but I could care less that he is kissing Diana Prince/Wonder Woman, given how unlike Dawn of Justice, he doesn't let so many people die while placing that Wonder Woman character as a priority for saving the life of others in those movies.
Zack Snyder saw that clip where superman says lives in a world of cardboard and just ran with that as his characterization of superman
Not even the full speech.
Just the start of it on wikipedia.
Its a great speech to show how aware he is of his power and what he can do when he is pushed to the very edge, but yeah that shouldnt be his default characterization.
"The movie makes a case that superheroes are lawless and reckless and irresponsible..." When you put it like that I think somebody made a movie that looks at heroes kind of like that. I think it was called Watchmen. Huh, could you imagine if they picked that guy to make a Superman movie. They would have to be out of their minds to pick the guy who spent an entire film deconstructing superheroes and making them seem like the absolute worst to make a movie about such a bright and colourful hero like Superman.
Oh what I wouldn't give to live in a world where I can say that and have it be true.
Counterpoint: Alan Moore wrote several excellent Superman stories.
Zach Snyder just sucks real bad.
Makes me wonder what WB was thinking when they decided to hire Snyder. It wasn't going to end well.
@@virgogaming6488 that his name would sell tickets, that was the only consideration given.
"The Boys" show gives off that message better. Because it's from the perspective of the people that have to suffer through it.
(Then it's about celebrity worship, corporate greed, government failures, MCU parodies, & Supervillain celebrities.)
@@FistoftheSnackBar
Just read Supreme by Alan Moore. Better Superman story than this.
Or even just Swamp Thing.
I wish they would show on screen the sequence from Allstar Superman when he is rushing somewhere and overhears among other things a psychiatrist urgently trying to tell his patient to hold on because his train is delayed. Later the sequence cuts to a girl on a ledge about to jump dropping her phone off. The next panel Superman is behind her. He tells her that her doctor's train really is delayed. Then he tells her she is stronger than she realizes. That is how you show that Superman is good.
+Matt Hellmers THIS! All of THIS!
The absolute best review I have seen of Batman v Superman. I have seen almost all of them. This guy hit it totally on the nail. Thanks for the great thoughtful review!
+Alex Rivera I agree. This is a great review. I did a review on my channel if you're interested. BvS no.1 mistake if you're interested.
It’s pretty sad that Superman IV did a better job of what superman would do in a complex cold war situation than the snyderverse.
Every response to this movie makes me more and more glad that I declared myself done after Man of Steel. I knew the moment they announced they were making a DC universe out of that movie that it wasn’t for me, because you cannot make a good DC comics franchise if your starting point is a movie for people who hate Superman made by people who hate Superman. You literally cannot do it. And time proved me right on that front.
I found Man of Steel MORE disappointing than Batman v Superman (I did find Batman v Superman disappointing too, just not quite as much). It was Jonathan Kent's stupid death scene that did that movie in for me. The 1978 movie already did it perfectly! "All these things I can do, all these powers, and I couldn't save him." Showing that even SUPERMAN was powerless to do anything about his adopted father having a heart attack. In this one he just walks into a tornado and is like "don't save me because you have to stay secret"...um what?
the DCCU superman is bad because the DCCU Kents are bad. Jonathan and Martha are suppose to be Clark's example of how good humanity can be and to be his moral compass. but these Kents have done nothing but teach Clark to be selfish his whole life and that people aren't worth saving.
Having Jonathon Kent die in a tornado that his son easily could have saved him from was absolutely maddening. The whole point of the heart attack, in various comic, movie and television interpretations of Superman is that for all his powers, for all his strength, Superman isn't a god and does have limitations. That is critical to the character because it gives him a lot of grounding about who he is and what he is capable of. It's humbling. What Snyder did was just flat out stupid. It shows a complete lack of understanding about the character and why he does what he does and who he is as a person.
I long since gave up on Zac Snyder making any kind of sense with the DCEU.
It’s Zack Snyder’s fault that these movies suck
This is by far the best review.
Starting out with the boilermaker, then adding an extra shot said it all.
It’s very satisfying to watch a review by somebody smarter and more knowledgeable than myself who also did not really care for the movie.
I didn’t see a review of Robert Pattinson’s 2022 “The Batman” in your feed, which is maybe for the best.
After watching I came home and TH-camd some scenes from The Dark Knight Trilogy to get the bad after taste of BVS out
I'm not a long-suffering DC fan like you are, but man, I can feel your pain. I completely empathize with how you feel.
Geahk Burchill I'm the opposite, grew up reading Marvel with a couple of DC titles here and there (mostly Vertigo). I love what Marvel's been doing in their cinematic universe but I'm also rooting for DC movies to be successful. It saddens me that they're letting Snyder mess it up for them. And yeah, I'm hoping Suicide Squad and the rest will better too
Two and a half minutes in and this video is already a favourite. Steve Chives gets it: Superman is my fave all time hero, but I've always liked Batman too, only I've increasingly suspected that why I like Batman (reasoned, stoic, principled detective) is very different from why other people like Batman (badass fighter who always wins).
The best opening to a youtube review...EVER!!!
Batman v Superman is what you get when you try to force Ayn Rand's ideology on to superheroes. It does not work! Snyder is a follower of Ayn Rand and he tried to impose those values on to our greatest heroes and it's clearly oil and water.
It's why Clark's parent's sounded like such lunatics. They were spouting straight up Rand philosphy and we all did a spit take and said, "WHAT THE HELL ARE THEY TALKING ABOUT??"
His parents basically told him that other people don’t matter and you should only matter and you should only worry about yourself. That kind of advice is bad for a man, it’s abhorrent for a Superman!
Whiny, entitled, juvenile man-children incapable of compromise and demanding the entire world change to conform to their shallow, selfish desires and are lauded for being and doing so.
It's no wonder Rand resonates so strongly with the conservative teenage male.
Also, she's an artless, boring writer whose prose is some of the least captivating I've ever attempted to read. I guess my mistake was being in my '20s when I attempted it.
the conflict between bats and supes shud have been that supes is sick of hearing about a vigilante who is killing criminals and that he must stop him, and at the same time this shows bats that supes wud even protect criminals knowing they deserve their day in court rather than be murdered or branded by bats and maybe out of that, bats changes his ways and then whatever anger he has for supes due to the events of man of steel he forgives supes, knowing he is a good guy, with true justice in mind.
People seem to be ignoring that Henry Cavill's Superman has only had a 1 and a half year old career in BvS and yet you expect him to be like he has been around for decades.
+Jason Norris Good point, plus didn't Superman in Superman 3 actually put out a factory fire, after he pulled the other guys out. I personally am liking the animated movies right now. Sadly, they are not Superman solo movies, but Superman actually saves people in the animated Justice League movies while in a fight (War, Throne of Atlantis, Justice League vs. Teen Titans) what is up with that?
suemorphplus2009 You know that in Superman 3, Superman TAS and in the Justice League cartoon no one card about Superman being an alien and 9/11 never happened to make the people as scared and paranoid they are in the DCEU. Also those same people do thank Superman for what he does in all those other mediums, but in BvS because it's set in a post 9/11 world and everyone knows Superman is an alien, almost no one thanks him for the good work he attempts to do and keep on discouraging him from doing anything good. It's not just Superman's fault, the people are to blame too.
Superman not interested in saving people? Was there no one in that spaceship cockpit? What was he holding when he flew into those people that I thought was a child being returned to their families as people were touching Superman on the way down? Why did he take Doomsday into space? Why did he fight Doomsday at all?
+Ryan Kolbe Did he look interested either time he saved someone? He seemed pretty annoyed by it.
+Brett Dupree I thought it was a perfect representation of Zack Snyder's own interest in it - it was nothing more than a chore for him. Since it's obvious that Snyder could care less about Superman saving people, we get a < 2 minute obligatory montage of Superman having rescued people with a sour look on his face. So much fail.
***** "That's not Superman, that's Batman mixed with Spider-Man."
Eeew. Please don't insult Batman and Spider-Man like that. They're my #2 and #3 behind Superman.
Half a minute in, not a word spoken, and TWO shots of Jager in the Yuengling? This can NOT be good!
I've had fun trying to pick which emotion steve's feeling in the first 10 seconds: anger, sorrow, confusion, regret, etc. best 10 seconds of silence on TH-cam ;)
That beginning made me laugh very hard. Right on Steve! ^.^
I wonder if you had a chance to read "Superman Smashes the Klan" yet... It's probably the best, truly heroic Superman story I've read in a *LONG* time.
Yes, I read it a few months ago. I liked it a lot!
If Lex Luthor existed in real life, Batman v Superman Dawn of Justice is the sort of movie he would write.
I won't say this is the worst movie I've ever seen. It certainly wasn't great. The extended edition helped some, but the whole thing was pretty disappointing. You could tell they were just wanting to jump directly to a Justice League movie to "catch up" to the MCU, despite not having movies to introduce any of these characters. Even at the best points, it felt like jumping into the middle of a story and then rushing through things as quickly as possible to get to the fight scenes.
Hey, it's better than Nemesis! Not that that's a very high bar. I actually found Man of Steel a little more disappointing than this. Jonathan Kent's death was the most disappointing part of that movie. When the entire point of his death in the original was "all these things I can do, all these powers, and I couldn't save him". Then in Man of Steel he's like "no you can't save me because noone can know who you are!" and he just goes with it like it makes sense.
Happy 2 year anniversary of this review Steve. Actually happy is a poor choice of words considering how you felt about this movie lol
What should have been done is a real Man of Steel sequel where Superman is properly introduced to the world and has the chance to become the true hero that people can look up to and he even grows to accept his role instead of feeling it to be a burden upon him. Then there should have been a separate Batman movie that shows what has pushed him so far over the edge (Robin dying presumably) and go as dark as Zak Snyder wants to take him........ THEN they could do a Superman V Batman movie where Superman feels he needs to face down Batman, during which he eventually helps Batman regain his fractured sense of justice. That would be a more natural setup and character progression.... just my humble opinion.
I know this comment is old, but this is exactly what I've been thinking^
they we're too eager to rush to the justice league I think.
Yeah, that would be true, but since DC and marvel lean on movies for money, and business speculation is that superhero movies will make less money, and marvel succeeded in making so much money on their movies, DC is in panic mode
This is the finest, most perfect review of this movie ever put to TH-cam, and the reasons put here are the very reasons I threw out my dvd copy of Batman vs Superman, some years ago.
lmao, the Zack Snyder bit near 13:00 is ON POINT!! earned a subscriber
Superman and Lois gives us arguably the best interpretation of Superman since Christopher Reeve (RIP). So my question is how is the same company able to make such a perfect representation on TV while completely destroying everything the character stands for over on the film side? During the Netflix years there was good reason that those shows had a totally different tone than the films. They were made by a different company essentially. Now that everything is back under Kevin Feige's control everything has that same Marvel polish if a bit of sameness. They had to fight to get all those characters back under the MCYU banner. WB had a gift and had all their most popular characters under one roof and could've done something amazing. Instead they wasted all this time and made some of the worst superhero movies possible. Now they have the people on the TV side making some pretty great versions of those characters while the films can't seem to decide what they want to do. It's all under the same banner so why are they able to do such great work one day and make utter crap the next? Who is actually running things over there? Where's the quality control to make sure their legacy characters are being taken care of? They have squandered such an incredible opportunity to do something Marvel hasn't been able to do and bring their biggest heroes together. What's amazing to me is even now they still don't quite know how to make it work because every decision is almost damage control from the last decision and they're still pushing things out without stepping back to look at what they have and deciding on a clear course of action. The Flash movie is a perfect example. The first Flash film should not be based on Flashpoint without a road map to what happens next. They're bringing back Keaton but that feels like damage control and something to get people excited and distracted from the fact that while they're treading water Marvel is past their first major storyline and moving onto Secret Invasion and Secret Wars because they have things planned out for years and they took the time to do it. If the X-Men belonged to DC I guarantee they would've cranked out an X-Men movie without any consideration for how best to utilize such popular and diverse characters. It's kind of incredible that despite knowing how much people want the X-Men back they are holding off till they have everything set up for maximum impact. How did DC screw things up so bad and let Marvel and their B and C tier characters beat the likes of Superman and Wonder Woman. When Justice League came out people were more excited for Thor Ragnarok and that was after the first two Thor films basically flopped with audiences. It's baffling the string of poor decision making that got them to this point. If they keep letting Marvel get the jump on them they'll never get back to where they need to be. All they really have is Batman and they're playing that card way too often with at least 3 version as well as Batgirl and Batwoman out there at the same time this year alone.
Choice of Director/Executive Producer matters.
regarding the WW "bitch" thing .... there was that one scene where Burce goes: "I've known women like you my whole life" .... guess, they were being subtle :)))
In any case, thank you for this review ... it expresses everything I felt while watching this film.
Major "Misses" for this movie, in my opinion:
1. Young Bruce levitating with bats in the opening flashback. This was pointed out to me later as a dream sequence, but I missed that. Set a bad tone.
2. Alfred not ragging HARD on Batman for going too far with guns and branding, or even quitting over it.
3. Superman not stopping all the other guys with military hardware when Batman was chasing the Kryptonite in the truck, or even asking why.
4. Superman not starting Lex's arranged confrontation with Batman by saying, "Lex Luthor is holding my mom hostage."
12:50 "I can imagine Zack Snyder walking out of the theater with a fucking erection" Dude, LMFAO!!! That literally cracked me the fuck up and I had to pause the review for that! xD
"superheroes are lawless and reckless and not to be trusted or looked up to" you do realize you just described Alan Moore's original concept for Watchmen? so ironically Zack Synder's BVS is a lot more of a watchmen film than the 2009 Watchmen film
Teddy Rubskin lol
Let the Truth set you free.
You said it. You literally said every effing thing that's been on my mind, that I've been telling everyone since opening week of this utter letdown of a crapfest.
Good on ya. Subscribed. Now back to reading comics & waiting for Dr. Strange. =)
I hope those were shots of codeine, because I can't imagine how else you can bear the pain of reliving that tragedy of a motion picture.
One moment that got me riled up is that the moment that caused Batman to inevitably put aside his differences with Superman is because they both happen to have mothers who are named Martha. It isn't that he realizes that they're both being played, it isn't because he sees that he is causing just as much destruction as Superman caused, it isn't that there's a bigger threat on the horizon that they both have to deal with. It's a bit of "did you know?" trivia.
Excellent chug to start… I’m sure that was a necessary first step to talking about Snyder’s shitshow.
I would quibble with you a bit about Eisenberg’s performance as Luthor. It’s true the character was written as a loony caricature of a neurotic villain, but I think it was Eisenberg’s choice to dial those charming character traits up to 11.
I do have to give them points for the way they introduced Wonder Woman though. The moment when she dropped in to save Batman from Doomsday’s heat vision was about the first time in the film that I stopped praying for death’s sweet release.
Bravo & well done, Sir!
I've been subscribed to you since ... I don't even know. I tried you go through your videos to see exactly when I subscribed and noticed that there is nothing past 3 years ago. And I have been subscribed for more, I am sure. I was there when you introduced "And now the good news" and "You had to ask" Series. You were the first person to like Superman Returns when you reviewed it and basically for the same reason as I did. But since the early days you have changed. Most people would consider it such a change as to unsubscribe but I haven't and I won't.[1] Because I think it is healthy to be exposed to opposing or differing viewpoints as it makes understanding the world a much easier task. [2] There are still some things we agree on.
Steve when I got home from BvS my kid was watching "Garfield Pet Force," and it gave me an entirely new perspective, not only on BvS but on Snyder's entire filmography and really all of human communication. At one point in Pet Force, Arlene the cat gets super powers and pops out great big boobs. Really makes you think maybe Batman killing people isn't so bad.
Hey Steve, out of curiosity what did you think of Deadpool? I don't remember you ever talking about it publicly.
As soon as I saw that face, I was thinking "this isn't going to be like the beer for 'The Force Awakens', is it?" And then, when you poured that second shot in there…
Hmm, maybe I will just go watch Deadpool once more before it leaves the Kino (cinema) in my neighborhood.
splits seconds It is film that is faithful to the character, which is more than seems to be the case with BvS.
+Kristi Winters Good choice. Saw B v S yesterday and it made me want Deadpool to make a cameo (despite coming from the other side) and mock how self-serious and boring the whole affair was. :P
No more on the branding? Why would inmates attack someone branded by Batman? Branded by Joker makes some sense. Batman? None.
I'm also glad you noticed the time honored film saying: "Tell, don't show."
And, Ayn Rand...
Ayn Rand...
That "Mindset" you're supposed to grow out of.
DC needs Christopher Nolan to come back and rewrite, direct, edit all of these movies because no movie featuring Batman and Superman together should be given a rating similar to Deadpool's Green Lantern. (BvS:DoJ=27%
GL=26%)
Holy shit, Steve...
I'm kind of glad I waited for your review though. Damn.
Batman v Superman - Dawn of Justice as written/directed by Lex Luthor.
Superman poorly written in that movie...he is not our superman
I feel you Steve. That expresses EXACTLY what I felt when I saw Star Trek (2009) as a long-time Trek fan. That aspirationaI quality in Trek is what got me through some hard times and was totally missing in Abrams creation (at least for me). I have refused to watch any Trek movies on the big screen after that--which is sad because this is the 50th Anniversary. It's amazing how much we can hold these works of fiction so beloved (and in some strange ways so sacred).
I'll put this on "You had to ask" as well, but...
Do you think part of the problem is that film makers want to tell different stories but have to use the same stock of characters? To explore the question of "Can a god be good" you don't want Superman, because it's his thing to be good. A different character might be better to explore that question but it probably wouldn't sell.
I guess my question is, is BvS and other character breaking movies a case of right story, wrong character?
Just like the comics (and any artform to be honest), its in the eyes of the beholder.
When you look at superman you're supposed to see someone noble, someone who is just a great person. You know, the way you look at Christopher Lee during his interviews and just think "Waw, what an excellent man". When I look at this Superman I think: "Was it really necessary to just fly straight through that building, asshole? People need that, you know. Bet you're not going to help fix it, either. You seriously couldn't think of any other way you could approach this problem?"
The problem is not the killing and destruction. The problem is how the killing and destruction are not a big deal. Buildings crumble, people are murdered, and it's not regarded as a failure. And fuck Dick Cheney logic - the whole 'Superman might not be a threat, but just to be on the safe side, better take it as an absolute threat' line - Replace Superman with 'muslims' and you have Trump logic.
+Mark Arandjus
I agree.
Superman is supposed to be beyond reproach. I do understand innocents being killed with Zod because you have, well, two gods fighting even though he didn't do much to attempt to minimize the damage in any way there.
Batman is supposed to almost counter superman. Instead of being beyond reproach, he lurks in the shadows, truly someone to be feared, but at the same time never crossing the line of murder.
Honestly, I didn't think you'd drink it. Well done.
Luthor reminded me more of the Joker than of Luthor in this movie.
I was half expecting to hear "the hardest part is only picking 5" at the end, lol.
That Intro was awesome!
Best opening 10 seconds I've seen in a LONG time.
Great video and great review.👍
+Steve Shives
Great review, Steve. Can't wait to hear your thoughts on other films this year like Captain America: Civil War and Star Trek Beyond.
Wow, I didn't know you put coffee in your beer, I do that too. INSTANT BESTIES!!!
Double shot boilermaker gets an auto thumbs up.
I'll be doing a live discussion on it tonight at 9:30 EDT with Michael and Tim from USANS. Michael liked it, Tim and I did not.
Absolutely correct. This was made for fans of the Transformer movies.
The Dark Knight Rises is looking better and better.
Spencer Malley which is so sad it makes me want to cry. Compared to BVS, Dark Knight Rises was like E.T., or Empire Strikes Back or On The Waterfront.
@@pittland44 The Dark Knight Rises is a wonderfully made film. Most of the complaints against it are unjustified.
@@h.b.smith_writer Dark Knight Rises is an overrated turd
@@chrishansen9731 still better than bvs
that was literally just coca cola and 2 shots of pepsi
I think that the film totally reaches the ideas of the first group of fans you mention. Towards the end we see that the characters have learned the importance of heroes. The story follows a world that's lost faith in heroship, which is why they're attacking superman so much and it's why batman is so brutal. By the end, however, batman has learned a little restraint, not branding luthor, and the world begins to understand that there's still hope for humanity. They come together once again to honor a fallen idol.
Super Heroes Except zack snyder didn't write the movie, so don't blame him for the story.
They blew their "we killed superman" load in the second film of the whole series. See, what dc wanted was avengers, but they didn't want to do the work to GET there. Now batman full on shoots people right out of the gate, and they've already killed Supes. Oh, brainiac is in the next one and is threatening superman? Who cares, you already killed him once.
+tyrongkojy they could have built up to batman cracking and shooting. It's happened in the comics. It CAN make sense for baman to murder people, given the right motivation. Again, it's HAPPENED. But they didn't earn it. There was no build up. It might have been fun to do that, to build to the Injustice story. They HAVE the time traveller (likely Flash), but no. At this point they did NOT earn this point of the story.
+tyrongkojy This would be the only way I could ever accept him murdering people. I mean we have comics where he's lost people and it only motivates Batman to be better (still not killing) at what he does. I mean he never kills the Joker even after A Death in the Family.
+tyrongkojy
No one bought that Superman was dead. No one could. Not only did they pull this 10 years ago with Superman Returns but unlike Superman Returns were we had no idea if there would ever be another Superman movie and thereby leaving room for doubt, this time there is no room. We know there's going to be a DC Cinematic Universe. We know the next movie is the Justice League. It's a joke that comic book characters never stay dead and Zack Synder jumped head first into that joke with his second installment.
+R.J. Grayson But bats HAS been crazed enough and HAS killed in several comics. Sometimes it depends on the author, but he's done it. But yes, DC certainly has been inconsistent.... that's less the character though, and more the company, which has its own share of issues in regards to these things.
Like I said it's been explored by better writers. And furthermore they always insist that it's not cannon later. Again, he started on his career as a vigilante because his parents were murdered in front of them. Part of the gauntlet for his sidekicks and folks that work with him is them not killing the people that wronged them. A Batman that kills IS poor characterization and he wouldn't do it. It's the easy way out.
That thumbnail perfectly display the face of a man who just went through some shit.
Every single thing you said in this review is verbatim my thoughts and feelings as well. I'm with you, brother!
"With great comes great responsibility."--Stan Lee."Horsesh!t."--Superman's mother.
This is one of the most entertaining movie reviews I’ve ever seen.
Oh, I get it now. They're pretending that this is Batman vs. Superman, but it's really the Punisher vs. the Eradicator.
I don't think I've ever seen you so hurt Steve. The pain in your eyes can't be masked by your words. I'm so sorry buddy. We are here for you.
Finally, somebody calling this film out for what it is.
Lol everyone has
I wish they'd let Bruce Timm and Paul Dini be the main creative team for The DC Cinematic Universe.
What about Wonder Woman? How was she in the movie?
Disney forever with the three S's: same, sunny and smiles for everyone.
Did you watch the same movie?
okay... where do we find the happy place...? People/Fans didn't like Superman returns & the audience is split on Man of Steel...
so where do we want to actually see this character go?
why are we seeing stalker, child abandoning Superman as the boy scout Superman?
Superman's Martha Kent is essentially the total opposite to the original Spider-mans uncle Ben saying with great power comes great responsibility
I might still watch this film for the simple reason that Zack Snyder directed Watchmen, which is definitely my favourite American superhero-esque film (I include 'esque' because someone recently pointed out to me that, apparently, 'superhero' is a copyrighted term, which I found hard to believe). Of course, I've heard nothing to suggest that this film is any way in the same class as Watchmen, but since Watchmen was widely despised by certain sections of the film-going world, I'll still probably give it a go.
To add to your last point, Watchmen was also released in the form of a chopped up theatrical cut, just like Batman V Superman. I wasn't too fond with the version I saw in the theatre, so I will save my overall thoughts on the film when I see the Ultimate (Snyder's intended) Version on Blu Ray. Same case with Watchmen, which the Director's Cut is my personal favourite in the genre.
''Batman uses guns in this movie'' DREAM SEQUENCES DON'T COUNT! And all those other scenes sound like you imagined/dreamed them up yourself.
mlee2001 It was the heat of the moment where he was busy doing something else. And nowhere in the movie when he was fighting hand to hand did he use guns.
+Arttu Lehmonen didn't he shoot the flamethrower guys tank and blow him up? And he stabbed a guy! lol
Eric S Nowhere in KGBeast's body. Batman didn't aim anywhere in his body. He didn't go for a kill shot. And that other guy stabbed Batman first to his right shoulder, exactly where Batman put the knife back. You stab someone on the shoulder, that just hurts, it doesn't kill.
+Arttu Lehmonen Don't quote me on this, but the knife seemed a little closer to the heart or a lung. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just saying what I am 85% sure happened.
Matt Brennan It went to the left shoulder, exactly where that goon had previously stabbed Batman when thwy had briefly pinned him to the floor.
So basically u want superman to fly around rescuing cats from trees and batman to do the bat dance to defeat the evil pengiun who is wearing a top hat and monocle. Smash hit right there
I agree with Steve on all his criticisms about the film as an actual film. I just kind of disagree that we can't have a movie that talks about the moral ambiguity of having heroes. I understand the argument that heroes have to try their hardest to rescue others. But sometimes the choice isn't so clear, especially was the case in Man of steel.
+Kylo Ren They hinted at some of these things about Batman's moral compass, has to do more with feeling impotent due to Superman's presence. Also we were given an incomplete movie, when you trim 30-45 min and you leave out scenes like Clark Kent investigating in Gotham... you miss out on characterization scenes. Overall I still think the movie is pretty bold despite being poorly planned or edited. Fails as a movie, the second hour is. a complete drag. The ending is almost undeserved. But I can say I enjoyed it's allegories to Greek tragedy and baroque religious art which is more than I can say about any of the recent comicbook films.
***** Well there were a few scenes demonstrating his moral compass. First it was the scene with alfred saying "everything has changed", another being lex luthor suggesting that Bruce's anger has been brewing for two years, lastly Batman does not brand Luthor after the death of Superman even though its stated he has branded a total of 2 in the mean time. The film does not do a good job in having the audience digest these things. I have seen major websites and movie reviewers contradict evidence of the film. For example Cracked held a discussion questioning why would Lex luthor care about introducing clark kent, a reporter, and Bruce Wayne, a billionaire, when he doesn't know their alter egos. However, the film shows evidence that Lex has known the truth behind the heroes alias' all along. That of course is the responsibility of the film makers to have these explanations easily digested for everyone (general audience, fans, and critics).
The film is incredibly frustrating. But I admire its bold attempts... While I would rate something like your avatar, The force awakens, a higher score as a overall film. I was more engaged by BvS by its attempts to be different than the recent crop of blockbusters.
+Casual Philosopher Good point. Now if only Bats and Supes weren't two massive hypocrites.
+Matt Brennan hypocrites over what?
hypocrites over their "no killing" morals and how they each see each other as dangerous threats.
Really like how you presented your review and couldn't agree more. Got a new subscriber.
the spaceship got zapped in the end of MOS, how did it get there
how did I know your intro would involve lots of drinking, ha ha ha
awesome review man!!!
great review! subbed
I think that Steve just saved me £10.
I fucking love how in the start of the video he takes a beer and pour in it 2 scotches
***** I can't blame him, I need Civil War to wash the bad taste out of my mouth
What is becoming clear to me is that the DC division of WB hasn't had a lot of good direction since The Dark Knight. The problem is that Marvel has launched what I can only describe as a massive cinematic blitzkrieg, and while DC was wrapping up their "Dark Knight Trilogy" (which kind of fell flat in Dark Knight Rises) Marvel was launching this massive campaign that began with Ironman and has now snowballed into this movie phenomenon that DC is now desperately trying to copy without taking the time or effort to plan things out or do the legwork Marvel has done establishing their characters, their relationships or the world they inhabit. DC put a man in charge who very clearly does not grasp the subtle intricacies of the characters he's attempting to portray (and who I think possibly has something akin to low level autism given some of his bizarre actions and statements) all while the DC/WB brass trash Marvel in the press while getting their butts handed to them in the ratings and at the box office in a vain attempt to convince fans that they're the "smart" comic book movie guys.
Don't agree with the "fell flat" thing about The Dark Knight Trilogy but otherwise, Yeah pretty much
I go back and forth on Dark Knight Rises, the parts with Bruce and Bane slugging it out, like the two fights between them, are amazing. The parts with Talia and Joe Gordon Levitts character really seem to fall flat to me. I'm sure the death of Heath Ledger threw off their plans, and they had to amend things, but the third movie just seems a little forced at times. I think part of of my criticism of the Dark Knight Rises is Dark Knight was a superb film. That movie was just so solid it really took things to another level and raised the bar for superhero movies. I don't know maybe that's just me, if you enjoyed it then that's great, I'm glad you liked it. I just think they should have done a few things a little differently.
@@pittland44 There's no confirmation that Nolan intended for The Joker to be in Rises. He was focusing on one film at a time and wasn't interested in retreading The Dark Knight. I also disagree heavily on John Blake and Talia Al Ghul. John was a skilled and recourseful detective who helped save Gotham City and his arc was built up for him to become the next savior which is fitting. Talia infiltrated Wayne Enterprises to help Bane and their League take over and manipulated Bruce Wayne into trusting her. The overall film works and capped off the trilogy successfully.
You aren't upset because you got drunk before you began your review. Wait untill the morning. You'll feel the rage. ;)
You've still got the DC animated movies Steve.
BvS is a tragedy. A tragedy in the classical sense, with revenge in the middle, used as an organising principle for the narrative. You say that the film wants to be ... Indeed, the film IS. Each of the three main characters has his arc, and none of them ends up being the same man who was at the start of it (near the end, Batman refuses himself to brand Lex Luthor, which would have meant his death sentence). The film shows us a humanity struggling for the better despite our own capacity for evil. I do not think BvS was devoid of hope, or any theme that they dropped halfway to engage in mayhem and violence. None of these heroes is endowed with the gift of perfection. They must strive to approach it.
Captain America Civil War had a revenge motive in the sense of Black Panther, but the story of how that played out was superior to Dawn of Justice. Even as someone where most of the characters I like are DC, with Spider-Man being an exception, I have to admit that.