Saxton pope and art young shot 3 under anchoring below the chin, they did not walk the string however. They were known for taking game at long ranges (having a 60~yard point on distance). The issue i feel with your method, is the "crawl" for short ranges is far too large for shorter distances for the bow to remain in proper tune as well as making the bow excessively noisy. The static release you describe is also problematic, in that follow through should always be emphasized. A good release like that of an olympic style archer is a beautiful thing, that not only increases speed, but lends itself to better alignment upon loose and consistancy. Believe me, i have shot, hunted and competed with traditional tackle aswell as competed in olympic style recurve. A "traditional" cheek anchor does infact line the arrow up below the eye and can be incredibly consistent by anchoring on a particular tooth, cheek or jaw bone. My particular anchor being my index finger on my eye tooth, with the knuckle resting under my cheekbone, giving me a point on distance of roughly 35 yards with a 47# longbow and 550 grain arrows, plenty for hunting, even on the southern alberta prairies i live with little cover, and have taken mule deer at over 40 yards, any further unless starving is unethical, (aside from gophers :) furthest being 121 paces). The olympic style anchor also better lends itself to longer (66"+) bows, having a lower string angle allowing the string to anchor against your nose without tipping your head forward. Windage with a properly tuned setup is never an issue, aiming off center unless because of wind unnecessary, not like you described. I used to shoot in excess of 100 yards quite regular and windage was rarely the issue. While I applaud your efforts and enthusiasm, i feel your method is somewhat clumsy as well as noisy. Shooting longer ranges reliably takes dedication regardless of aiming method or equipment and there are no shortcuts.
Greetings Luke, Thank you for the thoughtful, detailed comment. A key difference between what I teach and the masters you cited is that Saxton and Art both possessed a skill which was part natural (something NOT everyone has) and part long-term dedicated effort. In other words, NOT EVERYONE can shoot like these guys. In contrast, the method I teach & promote CAN be learned by ANYONE, and can be learned in UNDER A MINUTE :-O As for "tune" - this is a topic I long debate with bowyers, because my own methodical, scientific research has proven to me again & again that the "imbalance" that so many bowyers and archers CLAIM is in truth SURPRISINGLY SMALL: EXAMPLE: I have ACTUAL MEASUREMENTS that when I shoot my 60# recurve bow and StringWalk for 5m (SHORTEST distance, LARGEST gap) a whopping 4 FINGERWIDTHS (3 INCHES) below the arrow... ... the DIFFERENCE in DISPLACEMENT between my UPPER limb and LOWER limb is a mere 1/4 INCH :-O AND the DIFFERENCE in TENSION between my UPPER-half bowstring and LOWER-half bowstring is a mere HALF POUND :-O UPSHOT: - the "mis-tune" that some many detractors of StringWalking like to claim simply ISN'T TRUE; AND - any IMBALANCE in the limbs is READILY "absorbed" by even an "average" arrow, just as these arrow absorb the shock of a "balanced" pair of limbs; AND - THE ARROW CAN'T TELL THE DIFFERENCE between "balanced" limbs and "unbalanced" limbs. Period. THIS is an EXCELLENT topic for an upcoming video ! GREAT COMMENTS !!!
Thanx Mike! I am a newbie since...probably March 2020 and I find adapting to your methods are very-very useful and better than 100% sticking to conventional methods!
I am new to archery 2020. So I must thank you for your videos. They really help the new people to got on target. I shoot a FLEETWOOD bow with Walmart arrows. With what you are teaching I have gone from trying to hit my bag target to hitting my mark, And doing it at different ranges.
Greetings William! GREAT to hear from you! LOVE PSE too! WATCH the playlist for VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD! I’m working for 10 years to become an overnight sensation ;-)… Cheers Mark Vogt / VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
Extremely interesting: I love it when people go back to basics and challenge orthodoxy with well-argued logic. Couple of questions : (1) If you migrate to under the chin anchor, doesn't your draw length shorten & wouldn't this mean retuning your arrows and sight picture? (2) I shoot split finger, and gap-shoot , mostly 3D with targets mostly between 15 & 50 yards: wouldn't under the chin mean the gaps at the closer ranges be excessively large?
Greetings Ned & Welcome to VOGTLAND OUTDOORS ! I get this question often enough that I made a video answering it: studio.th-cam.com/users/videoOZse_yvbKQc I think you're about to be pleasantly surprised! -Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
I am new to archery and been experiencing inconsistency when shooting at 15m target. I've just found your video and I will give it a go next time I go to the shooting range. But base on the comments and your explaination, I just need to do it the right way (on your instruction, of course)
Greetings HeatBlast & welcome to VOGTLAND OUTDOORS ! GLAD you found this site - we're here to help ! Inconsistency - particularly with newbies - can be traced down to a few things: 1. MUSCLE CONDITION: your muscles get fatigued quickly, resulting in "wobble" FIX: Regular (multiple times a week) shooting; 30 arrows per "session". EXPECT this to take no less than 3 WEEKS of regular shooting to feel it EXPECT to FEEL a change in how STABLE you feel after that ! EXPECT that with improved STABILITY comes improved CONSISTENCY ! 2. FLOATING ANCHOR: your drawing hand is "floating" OFF of your cheek or chin FIX: Use my shooting method - you'll be PRESSING the 2nd knuckle of your index finger FIRMLY against the front corner UNDER YOUR CHIN. This helps forms a VERY STRONG "TRIANGLE" between that knuckle, your elbow and your shoulder. 3.FLASHY RELEASE: your release motion is too "flashy" or "flamboyant". Since you're holding the STRING when you do this, you're introducing MOVEMENT (read "ERROR") into each shot, resulting in yes-you-guess-it INCONSISTENCY. FIX: work at making a "small-motion" release - see my shooting method. 4. SLOPPY AIMING: you're not being PRECISE and REPRODUCIBLE in how you aim, you end up with "garbageIN-garbage-OUT. Simple as that. FIX: my shooting method is about as simple as it gets: - Anchor UNDER your CHIN, so you're looking RIGHT DOWN THE ARROW - LOOK down the LEFT EDGE of the bowstring - when your index finger is firmly pressed against your chin/jaw, your eye can sight PRECISELY down this left edge JUST AS IF you had a REAR SIGHT; - PUT the TIP of the arrowhead DIRECTLY on the CENTER of the bullseye - THIS IS YOUR FRONT SIGHT ! - Perform a SMALL-MOTION release Give these a try - you'll see your groupings improve ! Cheers, -Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
@@VOGTLANDOUTDOORS update after a week at shooting range I still have some inconsistency, that's on me of course. However, when I follow your instruction, I found my comfortable anchor point, which is a little bit to the right under my chin. And the position of my head and neck also affect the shot. And I'm also working on my release, too. It just doesn't feel right even when I place my shot firmly.
Greetings Virgil ! GLAD you're interested in giving this shooting method a try ! WHAT IS the Draw Weight of your "lower pound" bow? Tell me here, and I'll tell you what I KNOW is possible :-). FACT: I can shoot my HUNTING ARROWS out of my (adult) daughter's 22# Samick bow and hit near-dead-center at 50m :-O !... Here's the video: th-cam.com/video/S895VNou-Hk/w-d-xo.html Looking forward to hearing from you ! -Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
Nice explanation!! I experienced this same thing yesterday. Shooting with anchoring point on the lip edge and string walked two fingers down from knocking point for 30m, one finger down for 40m upgrading it to just not space for better aiming. One finger over the knocking point and two below for 50m, with some difficulties. And finally with an anchoring point under my chin and three fingers underneath my chin for 60m with a little big high aiming point. All with 30lbs limbs, so quite happy with the mixture of methods, anchoring and positions as well as results. Tomorrow will try with 36lbs limbs to see which methods are better for the different distances.
Greetings again CeQuRKV! HERE'S REALITY: MOST barebow archery works BEST when you're pulling a 40# to 45# bow. Period. - Any HEAVIER (stronger) than 40# (say 50# to 60#) you'll get tired easily, and your fingers will hurt unless you have a really THICK GLOVE too, and you'll need to practice 3-4 TIMES A WEEK; - Any LIGHTER (weaker) than 40#, (say 20# to 35#) and you'll be using very SMALL gaps AND gaps ABOVE the arrow, and on top of that you'll find that your finger release becomes VERY SENSITIVE to ANY mis-release, so you'll shoot BADLY :-O I own quite a few bows (maybe 12 to 14) Since last year I rarely shoot the 60# bows anymore. Since last year I rarely shoot the 22# bows anymore either - they're really really "twitchy". I shoot my few 40# to 45# bows ALL THE TIME, and really ENJOY IT, and I shoot them REALLY WELL at ALL DISTANCES, from 5m (a gap of 4 fingers below the arrow) to 90m (a gap of 2 fingers above the arrow), and I can shoot ALL DAY LONG. Plus a 40# to 45# bowstring pulls hard enough OUT of your fingers that your release ISN'T "twitchy" :-) ... ON TOP OF IT ALL, in ALL states in the USA the MINIMUM DRAW WEIGHT FOR HUNTING IS 40#. I hope this makes sense. WORK your way up to 40#. You'll never regret it. Cheers, -Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
@@VOGTLANDOUTDOORS Thanks a lot!! Very much appreciated the answer and explanation about poundage and ranges to select. It is my intention to increase the poundage I'm using gradually, so I will be with my 36lbs limbs for at least half a year before going up again, to build muscle endurance a correct my form. I think the next one if I can train properly at the range and the gym will be the 42 or 44 poundage. Sadly, to hunt I will need to move to any country around, as in the UK is not allowed, but is something I will try in the future for sure, even knowing I need to draw 50 in some countries!!.
Greetings CeQu RKV ! WHERE ARE YOU? You're NOT allowed to bow hunt in the UK?? BUMMER ! What about... SCOTLAND? IRELAND? FRANCE (via the chunnel)? I wonder why some countries want a 50# (25+ Kg??) just for BOW HUNTING? That makes for LAZY hunters who then can take a LONGER shot rather than learn STEALTH to approach their prey CLOSER... Even COMPOUND Archers will 60# and 70# hunting bows ONLY have to pull 60# for the briefest of moments, then they're only actually HOLDING about 10# at full draw! TELL me where you're at! Cheers, -Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
@@VOGTLANDOUTDOORS Hey Mark!! I'm living in England, where curiously, is not legal to hunt but you can do the training for the IBEP, but originally from Spain and with the doors open to travel and shoot in many other countries around because of family and friends. In Ireland, we can only hunt varmints, and in England, only on your own property is a legal vacuum also to shoot at varmints. So the people must take care of those guinea pigs escaping from home if they are living closer to an archer :). The 50lbs min is to be able to hunt in France and Spain, the two places nearest to me and easy to travel to with the bow and equipment, and, in my opinion, with awesome places where you can go to navigate/camp/hunt. Here you have a link to a page where you can find where are be able to shoot and the conditions (no updated since 2020, but must contain the contact info): europeanbowhunting.org/nations/ I'm still learning a lot, so I'm not in a hurry, but I would like to be able to get out hunting next year, as I'm a novice, shooting only since last October, but with very good results in indoor competitions (achieving to shoot at the national finals) and now trying outdoors, aiming for the 3D courses as soon as I can, I suppose after the national qualifications. I have a lack of time to watch all the videos, but I would like to transmit my gratitude for the variety and quality of yours, explaining all range of concepts/techniques/styles.
Boba was so right with his critics. The disadvantages of your anchor under the chin are much higher. Because you're loosing a lot of precision for near distances when your anchor is under your chin. With under the cheek you can easily have point zero at 55-60 yards. For WA you need only 33 yards and for IFAA it's maximum 60 yd. Only at field archery you're shooting 70 yd. With your methode it is quite impossible to achieve at 20 yd at 40 cm WA target over 500 points. If you have fun with shooting only at 60-120 yd okay, there you go with your anchor. But at competitions distances you will loose.
Greetings Daniel! You and Boba continue to both be quite quite wrong. I think you both need to stop simply WATCHING the videos and commenting on them... ... and get out there and TRY the method ;-) . THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU JUST SAID: "... you're losing a lot of precision for near distances when your anchor is under your chin." SERIOUSLY ? Are you forgetting two important FACTS? - the MAJORITY of OLYMPIC TARGET ARCHERS all shoot at "NEAR DISTANCES" (18m, 25m); AND - ALL OLYMPIC TARGET ARCHERS anchor UNDER THEIR CHIN ! :-O HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN YOUR FLAWED POINT OF VIEW IN LIGHT OF THESE FACTS?!! :-O And here's ANOTHER FACT: - The ONLY other difference between The VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD and CLASSICAL OLYMPIC TARGET ARCHERY is WHAT YOUR USE FOR A "FRONT SIGHT": -- OLYMPIC ARCHERY uses a MECHANICAL SIGHT mounted DIRECTLY ABOVE THE ARROW SHAFT; -- VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD uses the ARROW TIP actually AS the FRONT SIGHT. WHY am I bringing up THIS point? Simple - try to follow this logic: 1. YOU'RE asserting that the VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD is IMPRECISE a short distances; 2. I can EASILY prove that the VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD is for all-intents-and-purposes IDENTICAL in its mechanics (including anchor point) to OLYMPIC TARGET ARCHERY; AND 3. OLYMPIC TARGET ARCHERY'S precision-at-short-distances is BEYOND DISPUTE; THEREFORE 4. The VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD'S precistion-at-short-distances is also BEYOND dispute ! :-O IDEA - IT JUST SO HAPPENS that lately it's been EXTREMELY WINDY here in the midwest USA, with 30-40mph (50-60km/hr) cross winds at our archery range, so I happened to be shooting at UNUSUALLY SHORT DISTANCES of 10m one afternoon... ... and my groupings of 6 arrows (some even BADLY FLETCHED) were all INSIDE THE YELLOW ON a 40cm TARGET. IF I shot all 60 arrows the same as I shot those 6 (look at my posting in COMMUNITY), I would EASILY be in the HIGH 500's - in fact it would be BORING it would be so easy :-) ! HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THE ACCURACY IN THE PICTURE I POSTED? And HERE"s the MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION: WHAT IF you both STOPPED WHINING AND DENYING this shooting-method-whose-foundation-is-GROUNDED-on-OLYMPIC-ARCHERY techniques and instead TRY IT ! I mean, if a 60 year old Data Scientist who's old and has had target panic for 2 years now can shoot like THIS... ... IMAGINE what 2 younger, stronger, steadier archers like YOU & BOBA would shoot :-O ... The only thing holding you both BACK from an extraordinary change in your own abilities is your EGOS. Bummer. Egos SUCK. I lost MY ego 2 years ago, when target panic literally HIT me in a single weekend (like COVID), and I suddenly realized I was (likely) never going to shoot with as much confidence (and steadiness that comes with confidence) ever again. That SUCKED. But YOU two guys? Your egos appear to be still alive & well ;-) - too bad. Go check out the picture and come back and tell everyone your thoughts ! -Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
@ DANIEL... FORGOT TO MENTION: I've competed twice last year and twice this year in the STATE INDOOR 18m & 25m BAREBOW TOURNAMENTS: - LAST year I took SECOND in the 18m and THIRD in the 25m; - THIS year I took THIRD in the 18m and SECOND in the 25m; - THIS year I'll be competing in the 50m outdoor and even the 180m CLOUT SHOOTS (DAMN! - hope I DIDN'T just JINX myself; if I DID - I BLAME YOU TWO TROLLS!) HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN ALL THESE MEDALS, if the ACCURACY OF THE METHOD AT SHORT DISTANCES IS IMPOSSIBLE? AND I'm shooting my $300 HUNTING BOW with NO WEIGHTS and NO PLUNGER and NOT EVEN AN ARROW REST (I shoot of the SHELF) with my $6 each HUNTING ARROWS, so that the guys who beat me are shooting $1500 bows with $50 arrows, and ALL THEY DO IS TARGET ARCHERY. ME? I play competitive (I'm an NTSA "4") tennis multiple times a week; I run multiple times a week (28 half-marathons, 4 full marathons, 2 sprint triathlons); I fish 6 days a week in the summer; I bike 3-5 days a week I fly drones (I own about $15,000 worth of drones, and design my own & RC planes); I DO LOTS & LOTS OF OTHER STUFF BESIDES SHOOT AT TARGETS ALL WEEK... ... and with my shooting method I come in 2nd place ONLY to guys who ONLY SHOOT. :-O HOW MANY MEDALS or TROPHIES DO YOU HAVE SO FAR? BOBA? You out there? HOW MANY MEDALS/TROPHIES do YOU HAVE so FAR? Id' like to understand where your CREDIBILITY is coming from, after all this critiquing. Awaiting your reply, - Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
1 WEEK LATER... FUNNY how you and that Boba guy just come in here ONCE - 6 MONTHS AGO - and post ONCE - and then DISAPPEAR... Pretty sure that's the very DEFINITION of 'troll' ;-) ...
Greetings Monday and welcome to VOGTLAND OUTDOORS ! Glad you found this (older) video informative & useful - there are many more like it - feel free to watch more! My RESTS are about as primitive as it gets. Here's what I use: amzn.to/46xvLXy Cheers, -Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
To get a full 28" draw on my bow I have been anchoring at my temple and basically using my knuckles as pins. I've gotten pretty good doing it that way but I'm going to try the chin method later today. I never string walked before either.
Greetings & Welcome Jim ! HMMMM.... are you SURE you're anchoring at your TEMPLE??? Your "temple" is that portion of the SIDE of your skull just BEHIND your EYE SOCKET and IN FRONT of your EAR :-O !! Your CHEEKBONE? Sure - THAT's quite common. But your TEMPLE? You'd be literally looking down the LEFT SIDE of the entire arrow... ... AND your bowstring would (I would think) be TEARING YOUR NOSE off with EVERY release ! The worst thing is, by anchoring SO HIGH UP YOUR HEAD you've lost literally 60 YARDS of possible range that you COULD have by simply anchoring UNDER your CHIN :-O !!! THINK ABOUT IT... - the HIGHER you ANCHOR on your face... the HIGHER the REAR of your arrow is... - the HIGHER the REAR of your arrow is... the LOWER the FRONT of your arrow is... - the LOWER the FRONT of your arrow is... the SHORTER the RANGE that's possible with your bow :-| There's no escaping the physics here, unless you're perfectly ok with aiming at a point WAY ABOVE the actual TARGET. I developed MY method because I REQUIRED that my arrowhead act as my FRONT PIN, meaning my arrowhead is literally ON THE BULLSEYE at every single distance I shoot - from 5m to 100m :-O. I PREDICT that - with YOUR curiosity, open-mindedness and determination, you're going to adapt to anchoring under the chin QUICKLY, and JUST as quickly become ADDICTED to the newfound RANGE you just gained :-O !!! LOOKING FORWARD to hearing from you soon !!! -Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
@@VOGTLANDOUTDOORS thanks for the reply! I'm pretty sure it's my right temple. I do 3 under with a globe and the tip of my index finger hits about an inch past the end of my eyebrow where there is a indent. I am basically looking straight down the side of the arrow shaft. You make a good point that I am sacrificing distance, but I really want to practice for deer hunting so 40 yards would be the max shot I need. Sadly my back yard only.allows me to shoot 33 yards max. I do want to try under the chin, I didn't get to yesterday because I only had about 30 mins to practice so I fell into old habits. My only worry is that drawing to under my chin would take a few inches off my draw length and lose power.
Hi Jim! This is getting interesting... SEVERAL THOUGHTS: 1. HOW TALL are you? Because for you to need to draw out to your TEMPLE (an inch farther than your eyebrow) 1 of 2 things must be true: a. You are shorter than (say) 5 ft 6 in (the "standard bow hunter height world-wide); OR b. You're unconsciously positioning your body so you're facing TOWARD your target instead of at a right angle to it, and this is SHORTENING your draw length 2. 30 years is FINE (in fact LONG-ISH) for practicing DEER HUNTING :-O I did a survey on facebook last year, and out of HUNDREDS of avid Trad Archer Facebook group members replying, easily 2/3 of them admitted (readily) that the LONGEST SUCCESSFUL SHOT THEY EVER TOOK AT A DEER was 18 yards :-O 18 YARDS ! and nearly NO ONE claimed to have a SUCCESSFUL BAREBOW HUNTING SHOT BEYOND 40 YARDS ! Yes - NOT EVEN ME. In fact, I can state truthfully that the LONGEST SUCCESSFUL SHOT I'VE EVER MADE was a "whopping" 36 yards, and I hit the deer quartering away, entering literally his last rib in his rib cage, even though I was AIMING for his HEART (note: which when aiming a deer QUARTERING AWAY from you, is actually only off-target by about a measely 2 inches laterally) so it was a GREAT SHOT from 14 feet up in a tree after sitting still for 4+ hours early one morning some 7 years ago, so I was just over 51 years old. I DOUBT SERIOUSLY I WILL EVER MAKE ANOTHER SHOT THAT LONG IN THE OAK-FILLED and MAPLE-FILLED WOODS OF NORTHEASTERN ILLINOIS AGAIN FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE... So... BACK to YOU. - CONTINUE practicing at 15 yds, 20 yds, 25 yds and 30 yds, but no further. Instead let the deer come to YOU. And TRY the VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD, because your HEAD is still TURNED at a 45deg angle to the target (you're NOT "facing" the target like some people mis-understand), so you'll only lose a single 1 INCH of draw length. AND when you realize that your 20 yd "Initial Gap" is 3 fingers under the arrow, WHEN you anchor your index finger UNDER your chin... ... you'll be PLEASANTLY SURPRISED to that you're now LOOKING RIGHTDOWN OVER THE TOP OF THE ARROW, which is even BETTER than looking down its SIDE !!!! NOW imagine looking down your arrow FROM ABOVE, and PUTTING THE TIP OF YOUR ARROW RIGHT ON THE DEER'S HEART, KNOWING - absolutely KNOWING - that the arrow is going RIGHT WHERE YOU'RE AIMING IT :-O ... Looking forward to hearing from you soon ! -Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
Hi Mark, I have dabbled in archery for many years as a single pin sight shooter and vintage recurve bows, but now at 74, I want to work on barebow shooting. I will be following your instructions for string walking and anchoring under the chin this year. I bought a 35# Martin Jaguar for a light poundage bow for practice, and it looks like you’ve used one in several of your videos. Can you tell me how high you set your nocking point and what other limbs you have put on the Jaguar riser? I’m planning set up my own range and want to buy 20# limbs for the Jaguar if possible for my wife and grand kids to shoot. I’m in Canada and the trad archery supplies are limited… Thanks for creating the videos and sharing them.
Greetings XRayEyes and WELCOME to VOGTLAND OUTDOORS ! I LOVE GETTING comments like this ! Were you aware (I mention this in many videos) that I'm HALF-CANADIAN myself ??? Yup - mum was born in YARMOUTH and grew up in NEWCASTLE, then schooled in ST JOHN... ... then lived in CALIFORNIA in the mid-50's cuz hey - that's where EVERYONE went back then; and she met & married my American dad there, and they moved back to his native northern Minnesota where they lived happily with 4 kids on the south short of Little Detroit Lake for the next 55+ years :-) ... BACK TO YOUR QUESTIONS... 1. I LOVE the Martin Jaguar bow, and own 2 of them :-) 2. I use the STANDARD "Martin" brand limbs, even though the Martin Jaguar RISER is "ILF compatible" this is actually BULLSHIT, so DON'T BUY ILF limbs for it ! 3. It's TEDIOUS to CHANGE LIMBS in the SAME archery "session" just so your wife & kids can shoot too - it's SMARTER to simply order a CHEAP RECURVE BOW KIT for each of them on Amazon - watch the 2-part video I just uploaded where I show just how GOOD VALUE a bow is here: www.amazon.com/dp/B08S45R6S3?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1&psc=1 NOTE: when the QUANTITY drops down low, the PRICE goes up - TEMPORARILY, so if you DON'T see a price of $89 for the entire KIT, LOOK AROUND ! HERE are some OTHER equally-good bows and/or kits: www.amazon.com/TBOW-Takedown-Competition-Athletic-Training/dp/B09K7J4PHQ/ref=sr_1_4?crid=QKBKGSL7P0PF&keywords=recurve+bow+kits&qid=1673407261&refinements=p_36%3A23611086011&rnid=23610959011&s=sporting-goods&sprefix=recurve+bow+kits%2Csporting%2C99&sr=1-4 www.amazon.com/STACCU-58%EF%BC%82Takedown-Competition-Right-Handed-40pounds/dp/B08N6QY26V/ref=sr_1_25?crid=QKBKGSL7P0PF&keywords=recurve%2Bbow%2Bkits&qid=1673407261&refinements=p_36%3A23611086011&rnid=23610959011&s=sporting-goods&sprefix=recurve%2Bbow%2Bkits%2Csporting%2C99&sr=1-25&th=1 www.amazon.com/Happybuy-Takedown-Aluminum-Right-Hand-Competition/dp/B08R5JYKXX/ref=sr_1_28?crid=QKBKGSL7P0PF&keywords=recurve+bow+kits&qid=1673407571&refinements=p_36%3A23611086011&rnid=23610959011&s=sporting-goods&sprefix=recurve+bow+kits%2Csporting%2C99&sr=1-28 NOTE: the last one is a HECK of a buy because the SELLER displayed the bow UPSIDE DOWN in every image, so that everyone is AFRAID to buy it :-O ... MY POINT IS THIS: It will cost JUST AS MUCH (around $60 to $90 bucks) for you to buy another pair of LIMBS for the Martin Jaguar for your wife & kids as it would to simply buy an ENTIRE BOW KIT for them, so BUY THE KIT ! WAITING TO HEAR GOOD NEWS FROM YOU ! WHERE IN CANADA ARE YOU??? -Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
Greetings Starlord (I remember the original comic book series from the 80's)! GLAD you FOUND this channel ! WATCH all the NEWBIE videos, including the refresher I just posted (Sep 5th) on VOGTLAND STRINGWALKING METHOD ! Cheers, -Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
Mark and I are members of the same archery club but didn't know it until this week. We met at the club this morning so he could show me first-hand the Vogtland Shooting Method. I've been using the anchor taught in the National Training System, or KSL Shot Cycle, which is further back under the jaw than Mark's under chin anchor. It was a bit awkward for me to use his anchor since the other one is pretty heavily ingrained. I managed to get it close enough to use his finger spacing method of determining my crawl down the string. Until now I've used a 3-finger-under tab and counted stitches to set my crawl which has worked fine. Mark's method has one distinct advantage over the stitch count. As an example, let's assume my point-on distance, the distance at which I'm on target when the tab is up against bottom of the arrow, is 50 yards. In order to shoot beyond that distance I would either have to raise my crawl, which I can't, lower my anchor, which could be inconsistent at best, or gap shoot. With Mark's method one can go split-finger to gain about 20 yds of distance. Move the middle finger on top of the arrow and get another 20 yds. There will be a need for some adjustments but the method opens some additional possibilities. We had some laughs, shot some arrows, hit some targets (and missed a few) and had a good time. I learned a new technique and I recommend giving it a try. Some of the best barebow archers in the world anchor on the side of the face where there's a good chance the string will smack your nose on release. Under-chin puts your aiming eye right over the arrow which makes perfect sense and protects the ole' schnozzola. I've never shot my recurve over 20 yds. Today using Mark's method I was able to put nearly all of my arrows on the target butt, once I figured out my crawl, at 30 yds. I considered that to be pretty successful given I only knew the technique for less than an hour. Next time out I'm going for 40 and am pretty confident I'll hit way more than I'll miss. Consistency in archery is all important and a consistent anchor is key. Mark's method works. Try it.
I don’t know brother, I know we’ve talked about this, but I anchor along my cheek and my site picture has the string over the arrow. Now truth told I pull my string blur way out when shooting off the shelf, but I think that maybe there is something to be said for how you can both bring the string blur in as an aiming reference and use a face anchor, by using a rest and plunger. Then you can finite tune your left and right with centershot and plunger tension. But like you’ve said. If it works, it works. 🏹✌🏼
Hi Cerca ! "Maybe there is something to be said for... using string blur as a aiming reference." ? NOT "MAYBE" - but ABSOLUTELY. Think about it - THIS is PRECISELY THE SECRET that OLYMPIC ARCHERS USE TO SHOOTING SO PRECISELY ! - they use an actual FRONT SIGHTING PIN for the "front" sight; but ABSOLUTELY - they use the BOWSTRING'S LEFT EDGE (placed 2-3 inches away from their eyes) as a crisp, clear "REAR SIGHT" when aligning ! TO EXPLORE: WATCH as many videos of Olympic archers AIMING. I can PROMISE you that they're NOT LOOKING-down-the-ARROWSHAFT in order to align onto their targets ! Instead they're LINING UP the BOWSTRING'S LEFT EDGE with the FRONT SIGHT PIN, which gives them near PERFECT alignment OVER the arrow itself; then they use the windage adjustments (and maybe plunger) to "tune" what little left-right error gets introduced, and voila - AMAZING accuracy ! PLEASE REMEMBER: I'm NOT "INVENTING" this shooting method "FROM SCRATCH" ! What I HAVE accomplished is to simply MIMICK the 4 characteristics that the BEST SHOOTING METHODS HAVE: 1. a "mechanism" for PRECISELY SETTING the ELEVATION of the arrow, hence its RANGE; 2. a REAR and FRONT "sight" of SOMEKIND (real or virtual) 3. POSITIONING these sights so you SIGHT DOWN and PARALLEL WITH THE ARROW with ZERO "INTRODUCED ERROR"; 3. a "mechanism" for producing a "SMALL-MOTION" release, whether you use a MECHANICAL mechanism or a "TECHNIQUE"; NOTHING NEW HERE, other than IDENTIFYING the EQUIVALENT characteristics on ANY bow, and APPLYING those techniques. If MY method is accurate, it's only because COMPOUND BOW and OLYMPIC BOWS were accurate FIRST ;-) Something to ponder, -Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
Greetings Darren and welcome to VOGTLAND OUTDOORS ! SHORT ANSWER: CRAPPY CHEAP PLASTIC arrow rests just like THIS ONE: www.amazon.com/Plastic-Material-Adjusted-Archery-Shooting/dp/B08JLMDS7Z/ref=sr_1_16?crid=1O14SN240KXGG&keywords=plastic+arrow+rest&qid=1655952221&sprefix=plastic+arrow+rest%2Caps%2C283&sr=8-16 But MOSTLY I shoot RIGHT OFF THE BARE SHELF OF MY BOWS, although sometimes I have to BUILD MY OWN ARROW SHELF out of craft "yoga block" foam :-O WHAT'S MY POINT HERE? SIMPLE TRUTH: WHEN ALL IS SAID & DONE, you can win 2nd and 3rd PLACE STATE-LEVEL TOURNAMENTS WITH NOTHING MORE THAN A CHEAP $104 "Amazon" BOW and some $6-a-piece CHEAP ARROWS... ... IF you spend MORE time on learning a SUPERIOR SHOOTING METHOD, and LESS time on EXPENSIVE EQUIPMENT and INFERIOR (yes - FLAWED) SHOOTING METHODS. NO, you WON'T (likely) take 1ST place at the STATE level, or even place at all in NATIONAL events, but I PROMISE you the guys WIN and PLACE at THAT level invest HUGE amounts of TIME and MONEY to get into the "100%" level... ... while MY shooting method and equipment choices and MINIMAL EFFORT can (and regularly DO) get ME into the "99%" level - FOR LESS THAN $200 TOTAL (bow + arrows + glove + EVERYTHING) :-O No I WON"T absolutely DRILL the "X" at 20m time after time after time... ... but I for a mere $200 TOTAL I WILL hit within a circle the size of BASEBALL at 20m, and there's absolutely NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT ;-) THANK YOU FOR SUBSCRIBING - I will do my best to EARN your attention and open-minded-ness! Cheers, -Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
Great video just out of curiosity what stance do you take while shooting and what is that bow it looks similar to mine,me being silly ordered a 45lb it's not happening so I've a 40lb cheap bow to practice till the 30lb limbs arrive.
Welcome back Chris ! ANSWERS: 1. My Stance is as close to 90 degrees to the target as I can possible be; if you or I "face" the target - even in the slightest - your BACK MUSCLES (Trapezius) STOP holding the load, and your SHOULDER MUSCLES (Deltoids) START taking the lad - THIS IS BAD ! 2. This bow my JUNXING F169 RECURVE BOW - $104 on Amazon - WHAT A GREAT BUY ! I actually like them so much I own THREE of them (35#, 40#, 45#), but since my Draw Length is 31.5 inches not 28 inches, at full draw my 45# is actually pulling about 52# Here's a link: amzn.to/46cN5Rk Cheers, -Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
As a 61 year old interested in learning archery this is fascinating information. One area that interests me is adapting a modern compound bow to Native American combat styles. It seems like just resting the arrow shaft on the long shelf could be problematic but so is something like the typical twin finger type rest. Perhaps a simple horizontal pin with some sort of sleeve to keep it from lying directly against the riser. Then there is the question of whether something that would work with plastic vanes can be devised or whether natural feather fletch is required. Would appreciate your thoughts on these matters.
Greetings Mk and welcome to VOGTLAND OUTDOORS ! You & I are in COMPLETE AGREEMENT - the LONG SHELF of a typical compound bow riser WON'T WORK AT ALL like a RECURVE bow's arrow shelf - DO NOT USE IT !!! Here is what MARK uses on HIS Browning Ambush 80 (65#) compound bow: www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07SKFGF7Q/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 They've BEEN working FINE for nearly 15 YEARS, so I see no need to try anything else. Cheers, -Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
This is all fine and dandy but how do you then explain Byron Ferguson and Howard Hill's technic? Both were arguably 2 of the great shooters of all time and both used a cheek anchor. Just because you have an opinion does not mean it is the absolute as you suggest. Interestingly enough, you didn't show any subsequent results of your shots.
Yeah... this guy is a little preachy. Found what works for him and decided to tell everyone under the son that all other methods are worse, and doesn't concede any pros to alternate methods. Odd too that this is seemingly meant for beginners, but assumes a fair amount of knowledge on their part and that they can or should be shooting at long distances.
I too got tyerd of clipping my nose and will give your 5 step method a try. Would it be reasonable a 3.25 finger craw for 18m(20yards) indoor shooting?
Greetings Roberto ! HA HA HA HA HAH ! It's BAFFLING that there are WORLD-CLASS ATHLETES out there PROMOTING a shooting technique which is GUARANTEED TO CAUSE BODILY DAMAGE as being the "PREFERRED" and "PROFESSIONAL" method !!! It would be like MICHAEL JORDAN leaping from the top of the key, slamming the ball through the hoop... ... and LANDING ON HIS KNEES INSTEAD OF HIS FEET... ... and then watching MYRIAD kids all MINDLESSLY leaping, dunking and landing on THEIR knees... ... all because THAT'S HOW MICHAEL DOES IT. It would be like JT REALMUTO (top MLB CATCHER this year) CATCHING a FASTBALL... ... WITH HIS FACE.. ... and then watching MILLIONS of middle school kids all MINDLESSLY GETTING THEIR OWN TEETH KNOCKED OUT... ... all because THAT'S HOW JT DOES DOES. Anyone who READS the above would think I was UTTERLY RIDICULOUS to make these kinds of comparisons, but that's PRECISELY WHAT IT HAPPENING IN PROFESSIONAL BAREBOW ARCHERY RIGHT NOW. ============= To answer your QUESTION about what GAP (I NEVER understood why EVERYONE calls it STRING WALKING, but so many people call the GAP a "CRAWL" - that too is baffling) - IT DEPENDS ON: - YOUR BOW'S DRAW WEIGHT; and - THE WEIGHT of your ARROW; I'm betting you KNEW this, but simply FORGOT to mention your bow's Draw Weight. Let's ASSUME that for indoor archery you're using: - a BOW with a Draw Weight of around 35#
@@VOGTLANDOUTDOORS Hello, Tried it today. After 2 hrs found that a 3 1/4 fingers is the craw(gap) that works for me. 69" bow(24" riser+long limbs, DL= 28" under chin, DW= 22# . at age 63yrs young my arms start shaking past that DW. I am happy to know that with this under the chin BB method I can now go for outdoor WA 50m. I practice at 20m 40cm target which is the equivalent of 122cm @ 50m. Of course I'll have to then practice for the wind factor and get skinny arrows. My fat indoor Warrior carbon arrows drop sharply past 27m. Thank you Mark.
Greetings again Roberto ! I predict... that if you start shooting a few times a week, you're going to get noticeably stronger in your BACK, and you'll find yourself WANTING to draw something a bit stronger than 22# - likely you'll find yourself LIKING 35# even :-) ... Then... at 35# ... you'll be able to reach 50m EASILY and CONFIDENTLY ! The INTERESTING thing about draw weights is this: MANY people think that the LOWER the Draw Weight, the MORE "forgiving" the bow is about a poor-quality release with your fingers... but PRECISELY the OPPOSITE is true :-O The LOWER the Draw Weight the LESS forgiving the bow is about how well you RELEASE :-O The HIGHER the Draw Weight the MORE forgiving the bow is about your release - in fact above 35# the bow actually PULLS the string STRAIGHT OUT of your fingers, making the string's motion WAY CLEANER than at (say) 22# of Draw Weight :-O ... MESSAGE: There are LOTS of reasons to PRACTICE until you can INCREASE your Draw Weight up to 35# :-) MEANWHILE, your 22# bow will shoot arrows JUST FINE all the way out to 50m - I did JUST THIS with my daughter's 22# bow back this spring !! WATCH THIS VIDEO !!! th-cam.com/video/S895VNou-Hk/w-d-xo.html THIS video will MAKE YOUR ENTIRE DAY !!!! THEN WATCH THIS PLAYLIST ! th-cam.com/video/H19PUV7j7Zs/w-d-xo.html Very Kind Regards, -Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
@@VOGTLANDOUTDOORS Thank you for the quick replay. I actually practice 36 arrow rounds(6x6) 6-8 times a week. True I noticed yesterday at the club that all the young people where shooting +30# bows and the arrows would not diviate like mine @ 22#. all this was at 20m. Going to bed, I just looked at the clock and it's 3am!!!!
I discover your technique I shoot in bare-bow with a recurve bow ( string-walking) and traditional hunting bow ( 3 fingers) in my opinion, the main difficulty is to maintain the back tension by practicing the anchorage at the corner of the mouth. indeed this position requires a lot of work and during a course can cause bad shots due to a bad anchoring (creeping) or a bad release, then difficulty in aiming. I will try your method in 3 fingers grip. I think I'll have to change my nock height ? I suscribe to your channel
Greetings again Jonard, The BEST advice I can give you is this: LEARN to anchor UNDER YOUR CHIN - "Olympic Recurve" style. The GAIN in RANGE you get is AMAZING ! I'm continually ASTOUNDING my fellow archers who use 50# and 60# recurve bows, yet still CAN'T reach 90m because they're anchoring at-their-CHEEK; instead I'M shooting a 35# recurve (note: I'm 183cm with an 81 cm Draw Length, so I pull that recurve to 45#) all the way out to 90m EFFORTLESSLY. ALSO, achoring UNDER your chin enables you to sight accurately by looking directly past the bowstring, perfectly over the top of the arrow, and place the arrow tip directly ON your target. The result is an EXTREMELY ACCURATE shot, with NO left-right error introduced like you'd suffer when anchoring at your cheek. As for nocking point - KEEP it where you NORMALLY do for now, and tell me what your experience is! Cheers, -Mark
Under the chin good for longer distances 40+ anything under that especially for NEWBIES shooting 10-30 yard cheek is perfect anchor. If you can anchor at your cheek you can anchor under your chin. Anchoring is fluid and you should be able to change and adjust to your distances.
I’ve been really struggling with my anchor point. Tried the cheek & corner of mouth, but like you said you have to compensate laterally (windage) when aiming. Very inconsistent and uncomfortable. I want to try the chin anchor point, but my bow is not centre shot. My bow is +1/8”. Will I have to compensate on the windage still due to the offset arrow & string alignment? Cheers!
Greetings Gordie and welcome to VOGTLAND OUTDOORS ! TELL ME about your BOW: - Make & Model? - Draw Weight? - Modifications? - Does your bow have ANY sort of arrow shelf (center cut) at ALL, or is it like an English Longbow? Awaiting your reply, -Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
Greetings again Gordie ! I looked up your bow and found it at 3RiversArchery: www.3riversarchery.com/quick-stick-longbow.html GORGEOUS BOW, and I'll bet it's QUIET !!! This bow DOES have an arrow shelf - one that looks damn-close to CENTER-CUT - good enough to USE with VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD :-) ASSUMING that YOU pull it to exactly 28 inches, hence 40#, here's what I'd suggest you trying the following settings as a starting point for using the VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD and the VOGTLAND STRINGWALKING METHOD: ARROW: FULL-LENGTH (32 inches typical) 600 SPINE 100gr field point (and later 100gr rigid broadhead) ANCHOR POINT: Right under your CHIN, anchored FIRMLY - see this video: th-cam.com/video/RaYIP56qV28/w-d-xo.html STRINGWALKING GAPS: 20m INITIAL GAP: start with 3 fingers 10m INTERVAL GAP: start with 1/2 finger This should give you the following gaps for some common ranges: 10m: 3 fingers + 1/2 fingers = 3 1/2 fingers 20m: 3 fingers + 0 fingers = 3 fingers 30m: 3 fingers - 1/2 fingers = 2 1/2 fingers 40m: 3 fingers - 1/2 fingers - 1/2 fingers = 2 fingers START HERE, and come back and tell me what (if any!) adjustments you found yourself making. ALSO TO TRY: IF you find that the +1/8 off-of-centre-cut IS influencing your groupings (eg consistently grouping LEFT?), then here's an EXPERIENCE to try: CANT your bow about 15 degrees :-O This SHOULDN'T affect your GAPS hardly at all, but it MAY "simulate" a FULLY center-cut rest :-O ... (note: thank the amazing & incomparable GARY CHYNNE for this advice!) th-cam.com/channels/ufXwwtJmZWDzjdHXeWYO0w.html GOOD LUCK & HAVE FUN !! -Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
Hey Mark. Right when the video started I thought the range looked just like Kishwaukee then I realized it was! I was shooting there this morning. I'm working pretty seriously on learning barebow and string walking. My anchor is more 'under jaw' which allows the string to touch the tip of my nose. It adds a second triangle to yours with the three points being grip, under jaw and tip of nose. I'm shooting mostly indoors where there's a wall. I really don't want to lose any arrows ;). Ignore the name Herb, it's just a screen name. Bottom line, you gave some great advice. Anything that's bone-on-bone is more stable than fingers on a squishy cheek. I'll be watching for you at Kish.
Greetings Herb ! If you'd like to learn this VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD 1-on-1, I can & will MEET you at Kishwaukee, either this coming FRIDAY morning (I have Fridays off rest of year because I've accrued too much PTO time and not been able to take proper vacations), OR SATURDAY morning - take your pick ! THAT IS, I CAN/WILL be shooting at Kishwaukee on EITHER (but not both) of these dates: Friday September 24th, say 800a to 1000a; OR Saturday September 25th, say 800a to 1000a again After that I'm off to LOWDEN-MILLER State Forest, to bring my machete and hack through the nettles and thornbushes to where I left my hunting stand last November out 500 yrds northwest of Parking Lot #2 :-) ... REPLY ME HERE ASAP !!! I can SHOW you the method in 10 SECONDS I can TEACH you the method in 30 SECONDS After 5 minutes you'll be aiming your barebow at the practice range's 10m, 20m, 30m, 40m and maybe even the 50m targets ;-) (not kidding) Cheers, -Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
@@VOGTLANDOUTDOORS I like to come out on Friday mornings when less crowded. It'll be interesting to see how your method compares to what I'm currently doing. And Lowden-Miller is my turkey woods. We already have a lot in common. Kish Friday at 8.
Hi Herb ! KISH. Friday morning. 800a. Be there - aloha. I'LL be the guy in the burgundy 4-door Jeep Wrangler unlimited with the yellow standup paddleboard strapped to the top; kind of hard-to-MISS ;-) ... YOU'LL be __________________________? -Mark
@@VOGTLANDOUTDOORS Red Equinox with a portable, 4-lane archery range stuffed in the back. I doubt that there will be enough other vehicles present to confuse either one of us.
Greetings Tragedy & welcome to VOGTLAND OUTDOORS ! SHORT ANSWER: No - why would it? The VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD is merely the innovative combining of 2 already-global, already-proven shooting methods: 1. Olympic Recurve Archery; and 2. String Walking. I have videos which prove that even anchoring under-your-chin compared to along-your-cheek is negligible; if you wish me to be precise, it's 31 1/2 inches compared to 31 3/4 inches - a difference of 1/4 inch over 31 inches (less than 1%). In terms of actual change in Draw-Weight-at-Full-Draw it's 50# compared to 50.25# In terms of Arrow Launch Speed it's also negligible: 170 fps compared to 171 fps. You actually can influence your arrows a lot MORE simply by releasing badly or by letting your full draw collapse (like when you're tired) from 31 1/2 inches to 30 inches or less ! No - The VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD only ENHANCES your shot by providing the following: - PRECISE elevation range to even +/- 1m is possible; - VIRTUALLY-ZERO left-to-right error introduced (far MORE error is introduced by anchoring AT-the-CHEEK!), and at ALL DISTANCES from 5m to 105m :-O - MORE CONSISTENT GROUPINGS because by anchoring your 2nd knuckle UNDER your chin you now have a RIGID, POWERFUL "TRIANGLE" holding your shot at full draw (your fore arm, your upper arm and your collarbone), and the last digits of your 3 drawing fingers are FREE to flex & release EVEN WHILE YOUR ARM IS STILL FIRMLY ANCHORED UNDER YOUR CHIN :-O Here's a video I made on the (negligible) difference in Draw Length when anchoring under-your-chin: th-cam.com/video/OZse_yvbKQc/w-d-xo.html Cheers, - Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
The only problem I found anchoring under the chin is at short distances your aiming point is not on the target but on the ground in front of the target. It is difficult to be consistent as you have no reference point.
Greetings Peter ! Thanks for posting a comment... ... but I pleased to report that I CAN'T agree with you :-O ! WHAT DO I MEAN BY THAT? Simple! Anchoring under your chin DOESN'T at all prevent you from aiming by placing your Aiming Point - in my case the ARROW TIP ITSELF - directly in the DEAD-CENTER of your target :-O It's simply a question of HOW FAR you're willing to push the STRING WALKING that is required to elevate the arrow DOWN far enough for those shorter distances ! LET ME EXPLAIN IT THIS WAY... The VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD also incorporates the VOGTLAND STRINGWALKING METHOD. The VOGTLAND STRING WALKING METHOD uses 2 KEY NUMBERS: KEY NUMBER 1: Your "20m Gap" - the gap (measured in "fingers") from nocking point to drawing point for being point-on for 20m; AND KEY NUMBER 2: Your "10m Interval Gap" - the CHANGE in gap (also measured in fractions of a finger) which results in a 10m change in DISTANCE; In my videos you've likely SEEN me REDUCE my gap for distances LONGER than 20m, but there's absolutely NOTHING stopping me from INCREASING the my gap for distances SHORTER than 20m :-O I DO THIS ALL THE TIME, even down to 5m !!! WHAT does this look like? SUPER EASY: For a 45# DRAW WEIGHT BOW, and "MATCHING" ARROWS, you'll almost-certainly have the following 2 numbers: 20m Gap: 3 fingers BELOW the arrow; and 10m Interval Gap: 1/2 finger THAT SAID, HERE ARE THE GAPS FOR SHOOTING ALL THE WAY FROM 5m to 110m: 5m 4 fingers (MAKE SURE you're NOT using your PINKY as a "finger" - it's TOO SLENDER) 10m 3 1/2 fingers 20m: 3 fingers 30m 2 1/2 fingers 40m 2 fingers 50m 1 1/2 fingers 60m 1 fingers 70m 1/2 fingers 80m 0 FINGERS - your Index finger is TOUCHING the bottom of your ARROW ! 90m 2 fingers ABOVE THE ARROW 100m 2 1/2 fingers ABOVE THE ARROW (yes, there IS a weird half-finger gap between your fingers) 110m 3 fingers ABOVE THE ARROW 120m 4 FINGERS ABOVE THE ARROW IF you need to use a BOW & ARROW to hit something CLOSER than 5m, well... ... you need more help than the VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD can provide ;-) (just reach out and STAB your target with your arrow - you're THAT CLOSE !) I'm CURIOUS... WHAT convinced you (wrongly) that you COULDN'T string walk 4 and 5 fingers BELOW the arrow nock for truly SHORT distances? YES - you'll create an IMBALANCE in your bow limbs, but if you DO THE MATH you'll see that even on a "typical" 66 inch recurve bow you've created an imbalance of only about 4 fingers = 2 INCHES across 33, or 6% difference between the bow limbs - I PROMISE YOU... the limbs WILL be able to HANDLE this imbalance, as the entire bow was built ASYMMETRICALLY in the first place ;-) GIVE IT A TRY - you'll be pleasantly surprised ! And then come back and TELL us how all about it! LOOKING FORWARD to HEARING FROM YOU ! -Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
PETER !!!! I MADE THIS VIDEO JUST FOR YOU - I hope you find it USEFUL and ENCOURAGING !! studio.th-cam.com/users/videoD6Nsi5Cl5rY/edit Cheers, -Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
@@VOGTLANDOUTDOORS Thank you for the video. It was informative and I found it useful. As a Olympic style recurve shooter I prefer to anchor under the chin and will now experiment with string walking.
@@VOGTLANDOUTDOORS I too got tiered of clipping my nose and will give your 5 step method a try. Would it be reasonable a 3.25 finger craw for 18m(20yards) indoor shooting?
The lower the anchor, the higher the arrow will hit. Simple physics says you'll have to have to crawl/walk WAY DOWN for shorter ( = normal hunting ) distances. For long target distances, OK. The mind is pretty flexible, especially when it comes to instinctive shooting, so it may be possible to anchor so low and hit your target instinctively. But I don't know - I've never tried it.
Great advice. I can only agree 100%. When I anchor on the chin, the string picture is somewhere 20 cm right of the riser, totally uncontrollable and not reproducible. But when anchoring under the chin, the string is always on the middle of the riser. I am originally a recurve olympic shooter and try to go to barebow now. I had very big difficulties with other anchoring approaches... thanks a lot for that video. Great stuff !!!
Greetings Yannik ! GLAD You enjoyed the video ! Please watch the OTHERS ! ASIDE: When you posted, I THINK you made an important typographical error: - you SAID "when I anchor on the chin, the string picture is somewhere 20cm right of the riser" - I THINK you meant "when I anchor ON THE CHEEK, the string picture is somewhere 20cm right of the riser" Let me know if I understood you, and if my correction made sense! Please watch the following playlist to learn more: th-cam.com/play/PLj4BxB96vTdeQA-4ZmELV5a1IteQhPFfc.html TELL ME WHERE YOU'RE FROM !!!!! Cheers, Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
Sorry to say this, but it is not. You pull the arrow and the string straight to your eye so how on earth the "string picture" can be "somewhere 20 cm of the riser" is beyond me. If it is so "uncontrollable and not reproducible" why every single barebow (as a matter of fact traditional) archer is using this? You are just so used to olympic recurve so much that Your body developed this 20cm of "kink". It is You not the anchor ...
You may have just fixed my inconsistency issue. I wondered why the 'under the chin' method was used by the olympic shooters. Giving it a try. Thanks. (note: after a year, under chin still works great)
Hi Mark. Greetings and as they say "long time no hear". A little update about me. I had participated in my first 3D competition 2 months ago and I used your aiming method faithfully during the entire course. I was a bit nervous because I was competing against well known barebow archers from my state who, would you believe it were in my group. To make things worst, they were using their thousand dollars bows with plunger buttons whereas I was using a chinese bow which cost roughly about 100 dollars. The level of my confidence was so low that I had decided to use fiberglass arrows instead of my normal carbon arrows because I was very sure that I will lose many arrows that day. It was in fact my first time shooting in the woods and I'm not going to risk losing my more expensive carbon arrows. The fibreglass arrows only cost about 1 dollar each and I won't lose any sleep if they go missing. Any way, to make long story short, I did quite well in that competition. I only lost 2 arrows and I gave some of the more experienced archers quite a scare towards the end. The aiming method was somewhat different and I was shooting fibreglass arrows against their Easton arrows. What I'm trying to say is that your vogtland method has made me into a better archer and I believe with more practice perhaps I can do even better. I mean who knows what the future holds for us. Anyway cheers man. Keep the videos coming. What might not work for some might work wonders for others.
Greetings Ajim... MUSIC TO MY EARS !!!!!!!!!!! Arguably the GREATEST 2 CHALLENGES in all 3D SHOOTS ARE THESE: 1. NERVES - I place this FIRST for one simple reason: If you're NERVOUS and you PULL/PUSH/JERK your release, you can literally MISS THE TARGET ENTIRELY 2. DISTANCE MEASURING - you need to judge distances with EXTREME ACCURACY; Many 3D targets are QUITE SMALL - the size of a RACCOON or SKUNK (inches wide) For LIGHT-DRAWWEIGHT bows (20# to 35#) the arrow flight is VERY parabolic, so EVERYTHING must be very very PRECISE, with distances measured to +/- 1m of accuracy resulting in an arrow rise/drop on the target +/- 2 inches :-( For MEDIUM-DRAWWEIGHT bows (35# to 55#) the arrow flight starts to FLATTEN a bit, so you can afford to be LESS precise in distance measuring, perhaps +/- 2m of accuracy resulting in an arrow rise/drop on the target of +/- 2 inches :-) For HEAVY-DRAWWEIGHT bows (55# to 70#) the arrow flight gets VERY FLAT, so you can afford to be even LESS precise in distance measuring, perhaps +/- 4m of accuracy resulting in an arrow rise/drop on the target of +/- 2 inches :-O NOTE: The above explanation starts to shed light on just WHY all the COMPOUND BOW archers are SO BLOODY ACCURATE; the HIGHER DRAWWEIGHTS (60# to 70# is common) and resulting FASTER ARROW SPEEDS (speeds of 290 ft/s up to 330 ft/s and beyond!) result in FLATTER ARROW TRAJECTORIES they provide means you can be quite quite IMPRECISE with your DISTANCE MEASURING, and you'll STILL get a GREAT SHOT :O It also means that the SAME "elevation" is good for a WIDE RANGE of distances :-O What I mean by this is a single pin (say the 20m pin) on a 70# compound bow will STILL hit the "yellow" (bullseye) at distances of 15m out to 25m; that's why compound bow sights often uses only 3 pins (4 pings at most) to cover all ranges from 10m out to 40m; - the 10m pin "covers" 5m to 15m - the 20m pin "covers" 15m to 25m - the 30m pin "covers" 25m to 35m and - the 40m pin ""covers" 35m to 45m :-O BACK TO THE OFFICIAL TOPIC - you COMPETING :-) ... I'M SUPER PROUD OF YOU ! IDEAS TO TRY (stuff that works for ME) 1. USE BRIGHT-COLORED TRAD-CARBON ARROWS -they're EASY to find ! MY favorite arrows (I've ordered 1 sets of 12 each over the past 4 years): www.amazon.com/Archery-Carbon-Arrows-Recurve-Feather/dp/B01MTLOT7X?ref_=ast_sto_dp&th=1&psc=1 2. DON'T CHANGE ARROWS JUST BEFORE COMPETITION - EVER Habits are funny; at some point you'll use the gap from your (lighter) CARBON arrows on your FIBERGLASS arrows... and the arrow will land short and in the dirt, and you'll feel silly ;-) 3. WHEN you get a distance you're UNFAMILIAR shooting, BACK-UP a step or two until you're at a distance you ARE familiar shooting :-O EXAMPLE: You feel SUPREMELY confident with your 20m gap, like it's your GO-TO shot, but you come upon a 3D target that is 18m away - WHAT DO YOU DO? GOOD: you COULD try to INCREASE your gap by that teeny-weeny little bit (maybe 1/8 finger); OR BETTER: you simply TAKE 2 STEPS BACKWARD (it's LEGAL) and now you're at 20m - YOUR GO-TO SHOT. :-O I SEE this very strategy regularly when I'm out shooting ARCHERY GOLF with some of my BLACKWELL TRADTIONAL ARCHERY GROUP (facebook.com). I'll see my archery buddy Mark Reinhardt deliberately shoot his next-to-last shot SHORTER than he really needs to, all so his LAST shot is a distance he's SUPREMELY GOOD at (say 15m); then he steps up to his last shot at 15m and utterly PLUGS the foam soccer ball target :-) THAT'S IT - you're doing GREAT !!!!! Ajim - REMIND me where you LIVE and where you SHOOT and what bow (draw weight) you shoot - I'm curious. And if you're shooting an ASIAN bow - are you using a THUMB RING release? Did you know the VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD can work WELL with THUMB RINGS TOO??? :-O Cheers, -Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
Hello, I have had a look at the chin achor and the problem that I see with it is a major one. That is written in all of the archery textbooks. This is, that the draw to the chin is essentially out of allignment. You don't have the atonimical advantage of bone stacking nor do you have the leverage effect. Hence an archer using the chin method will potentially get tired a lot more quicker than the archer who predominantly uses the "draw to allignment technique". Although the draw to allignment technique appears to hang in space, it is not. Your wrist, elbow are in "allignment" hence they are not under muscle stress. They are in bone stacking allignment. No triangles, just straight lines. Site picture, that is a whole different story.
Hi Nenad ! "Reasonable people can DISAGREE on this topic" ... I'M a REASONABLE person :-) ... YOU'RE a REASONABLE person :-) ... YOU only want to see the (single) perceived "strength" of cheek-anchoring, having (I'm guessing here) NOT actually tried both methods - at least not for any "decisive" length of time. I'VE CHALLENGED myself to look at the strengths and weaknesses of BOTH methods, and I've actually USED BOTH METHODS, each one for literally YEARS at a time... ... and I've come to the "epiphanies" that I've decided to start SHARING with everyone :-) FRIENDLY CHALLENGE: YOU spend the ENTIRE SUMMER shooting ONLY this one way: - CHIN-anchoring; - SIGHTING down the left-edge of string; - PUTTING tip of arrow actually ON-BULLSEYE; - STRINGWALKING for arrow elevation - SHOOTING at ranges from 5m to 100m Then come back and (candidly) report your findings of that approach vs: - what you think YOU (accomplished, experienced archer) can achieve with BOTH shooting methods; AND - what you think you can TEACH A NOVICE in less than 5 minutes. I'LL bet that I CAN teach a near-NOVICE archer to shoot AS ACCURATELY as YOU at all distances from 5m to (say) 50m... and I can teach that in less than 5 minutes. THIS is my epiphany - that ACCURATE shooting BAREBOW CAN be as accurate as COMPOUND archery - IF you adopt the shooting method which REPLICATES the strengths of Compound bows :-O ... Or you can simply continue using cheek-anchoring... and then you and I both KNOW you'll be LIMITED to only "aiming DIRECTLY" at targets out to about 40m at BEST, and for anything LONGER than that you'll be aiming at a POINT-in-SPACE instead of a point-on-the-TARGET :-O Let us know what you decide - it'll make a VERY INTERESTING test-case for this summer ! Cheers - Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
FRIENDLY CHALLENGE: - I'VE tried "the alignment method" for DECADES... ... but all it took was 5 MINUTES of shooting with MY technique, and I became CONVINCED the "alignment" might be legitimate, but it DIDN'T mean the shooting method itself was flawless :-| - I'll ask YOU to try THIS approach for an afternoon, realize there ARE MULTIPLE methods for arriving at a SOLID "frame" when you're anchored, as well as MULTIPLE ways of achieving the "alignment" you're describing - only the method I teach has the added ADVANTAGES of INCREASED RANGE, a "smaller" (hence more accurate) release, as well as ALIGNMENT/SIGHTING ACCURACY, because you're now EFFORTLESSLY aiming directly above the arrow, with NO worries that the bowstring can EVER catch your nose and tear your skin off; AND you get to use the ARROWTIP as your front sight.
@@VOGTLANDOUTDOORS personally I'm still trying to dial in my anchor. I do gap shooting and usually use my jaw line but maybe this isn't low enough... also still dialing in my release. Have some plucking issues
Hi Messor ! ALL I'm asking you to do is make a TINY RE-POSITIONING of your anchor... ... and reap all the BENEFITS of this technique. I DIDN'T INVENT THIS ANCHORING METHOD !!! It's been around as long as there as Archery has been in the Olympics (AD 1900, so 120 YEARS AGO) ... I DIDN'T INVENT STRINGWALKING either :-) I DIDN'T INVENT the idea of sighting down the left-edge of the bowstring as a "virtual rear peep"... I DIDN'T INVENT the idea of actually using the ARROWHEAD as a "virtual front peep"... I DID (it appears) "INVENT"... USING ALL OF THESE TECHNIQUES INTO A SINGLE SHOOTING METHOD :-O !!! BELIEVE ME - I EXHAUSTIVELY researched TH-cam, the INTERNET and even Chicago Public Library and AMAZON (books) AND numerous uber-popular ARCHERY FORUMS looking for ANYONE who could claim they've been USING and TEACHING this "unified" shooting method BEFORE ME... and I HAVEN'T FOUND A SINGLE PERSON :-O NO ONE was MORE surprised than I was when I realized I had devised what might genuinely arguably be a NEW SHOOTING METHOD :-O IMAGINE if YOU had gradually, methodically come upon this method... WHAT would YOU do ? - It can make even a BEGINNER incredibly confident AND ACCURATE; - it works from 5m out to 100m; - it works as well with a $50 bow as with a $1,000 bow; - it can be taught in 5 MINUTES - it could make THOUSANDS (and more) would-be archers FALL IN LOVE WITH ARCHERY WOULD you KEEP IT TO YOURSELF? Me? I chose to start SHARING it, even if I get a few nay-sayers or skeptics :-) Let me know how it initially works for you, and if you have any questions - I'll watch for posts ! -Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
Usually ppl that anchor on the side of chin .We cant the bow , it opens the sight and your arrow aligns with the target. Under the chin looks very interesting but you really have to be aiming🤔 no instictive shoots no birds nor rabbit hunting? I would like to see how to shoot a moving target under the chin?
Greetings Louis ! You ask GREAT questions ! You may be surprised that I shoot a MOVING target VERY MUCH like you do - INSTINCTIVELY :-O LET'S TAKE A STEP BACK HERE AND THINK FOR A MOMENT ABOUT SHOOTING METHODS... REALITY: THERE IS NO SINGLE SHOOTING METHOD WHICH IS "IDEAL" FOR ALL SHOOTING SITUATIONS. PERIOD. :-O WHY do I say this? Simple. - There are shooting situations where targets are CLOSE and MOVING; Time for AIMING ISN'T a luxury ACCURACY is LESS important than TRACKING - There are shooting situations where targets are FAR and STATIONARY; There IS time for AIMING ACCURACY IS important MARK'S SHOOTING PHILOSOPHY is THIS: - If you HAVE time to AIM, then USE a SHOOTING METHOD which OPTIMIZES your ACCURACY; - If you DON'T have time to AIM then USE a SHOOTING METHOD which OPTIMIZES your TRACKING; MARK'S big ISSUE with using INSTINCTIVE AIMING METHODS for STATIONARY TARGETS is that this is a MIS-MATCH of shooting METHOD to shooting SITUATION - TIME is on your SIDE; - ACCURACY at a WIDE RANGE of distances IS IMPORTANT - INSTINCTIVE AIMING METHODS in fact AREN'T the BEST choice here - PERIOD ! (I don't care WHAT kind of a champion instinctive archer you are, you're ONLY going to be good at a FEW distances) - a shooting method which EMPOWERS you to CAREFULLY AIM for that distance and RELEASE just as carefully is a BETTER "match" for this shooting situation, so MARK promotes the VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD here :-) WHAT about YOUR shooting situation? WHAT about a MOVING TARGET at (say) a CLOSE distance? Me? We SHOOT at stuff like this ALL THE TIME when hunting. I've hit EVERY DEER I'VE EVER SHOT AT IN THE PAST 20 YEARS - here's how: - I would NEVER shoot at a moving target beyond 20m - I would have my gap set to 3 fingers (20 m), and be fully-drawn, looking at the (moving) target down my arrow - I would TRACKING IN FRONT OF THE TARGET, JUST like you do with a SHOTGUN "leading" a clay pigeon - THERE IS AN "INSTINCTIVE" ASPECT TO THIS ADDITION TO MY SHOOTING METHOD - It takes PRACTICE to learn HOW MUCH "lead" you need for a given DISTANCE and SPEED of the target - That said, I DESPISE terming this "instinctive" shooting, because "instinctive" has a DIFFERENT DEFINITION ! - "INSTINCTS" are sophisticated abilities you're BORN WITH - What we SHOULD be calling this time of shooting is "INTUITIVE" - INTUITION is "perceptions & abilities which can be LEARNED through repeated EXPERIENCE" SO HERE WE ARE - FINALLY having an INTELLIGENT discussion about ARCHERY - there are situations where "INTUITIVE AIMING" is the PREFERRED method; - there are situations where "PRECISION AIMING" is the PREFERRED method; and - there are situations where a COMBINATION of INTUITIVE AND PRECISION AIMING may be MOST USEFUL :-) For TARGET ARCHERY, The VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD represents a powerful PRECISION AIMING method; For HUNTING MOVING TARGETS, INTUITIVE SHOOTING METHODS work EQUALLY well - My VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD works surprisingly well for ME and increasingly many others; BUT - I've seen my shooting buddies like Mark Reinhardt, Dan McGhee, Hubert, Jim and Danny shoot INTUITIVELY with utterly ASTOUNDING accuracy even at distances of 20m, 30m, and even 40m (on golf courses no less) :-O Great Topic - would welcome your thoughts ! -Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
Makes so much sens And yes Sir it is very interesting and informative I will certainly try and pratice this style It sure would be a plus to be always point on arrow🏹
Hi Mat ! "Archers Paradox" ? It's difficult to understand your question, but IF you're asking "DOES 'archer's paradox' come into play when employing the VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD?" Answer: SOMETIMES. Let me clarify: - when shooting a bow with a CENTERCUT ARROW SHELF or ARROW REST, Archer's Paradox is MINIMAL, and can basically be ignored. I PROVE this over & over & over by shooting 5 out of 6 arrows landing at 90m when shooting BAREBOW from nothing but a bow with a CENTERCUT ARROW SHELF, NO plunger, and AIMING POINT-ON the center of the target using a 58# recurve bow :-) - when shooting a bow WITHOUT any centercut arrow shelf, Archer's Paradox is PRONOUNCED, but can be MITIGATED by CANTING the BOW 45 degrees. See the marvelous videos by GARY CHYNNE for the RIGHT way to CANT a bow, then come back and use VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD and VOGTLAND STRINGWALKING METHOD with your CANTED bow - you'll get a kick out of this ! Cheers, -Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
@@VOGTLANDOUTDOORS thanks for the lengthy reply; will check out the info. I am shooting a bow that is not centre cut. In short: I probably should get one.
Darren, YOU GOT IT - you absolutely CAN shoot a COMPOUND BOW BAREBOW, using my VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD and VOGTLAND STRINGWALKING METHOD ! I do it A LOT, and on ALL of my compound bows: - 65# Browning Ambush compound hunting bow (circa 1990) - 40# Genesis X compound bow - I LOVE SHOOTING this bow at 90m REGULARLY I've STRIPPED EVERYTHING UNNECESSARY OFF OF MY COMPOUND BOWS. The ONLY thing remaining on them is the ARROW REST. NO FRONT SIGHTS NO REAR "PEEP" SIGHT NO RELEASE WATCH my OTHER videos where I shoot compound bows BAREBOW: th-cam.com/video/-uoSVA11wt8/w-d-xo.html Cheers! -Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
I was coming into barebow from Target Recurve. I tried the cheek/lip anchor. It was ok but I hated the way the string clipped my face. Sometimes I find my fingers scraping my lips and cheek. I tried going back to what I am used to: the chin anchor. I eliminated almost 95% of the horizontal spread of my groupings, all that's left is to tighten my vertical groupings. The catch? I had to stringwalk more than a finger tab's worth. Most of my shots were hitting too high.
Greetings Zen Zen ! If you're coming into barebow from Olympic Recurve shooting, then my (VOGTLAND) Shooting Method is going to suit you just fine, because it ALSO uses anchor-under-the-chin right out of the Olympic Recurve Shooting "manual" ;-) ... ADVICE: DON'T worry about having to stringwalk a gap of MORE than 4 "fingers" for your really short distances (like 10m). I regularly use the VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD to stringwalk even 5 full fingers (I go down 3 fingers, then 2 more, so I DON'T use my pinky finger because it's NOT the same width as the other 3) to shoot even at distances as close as 5m (yes - 5 METERS) :-O ... Today's recurve bows (and long bows) CAN handle this level of "asymmetry" or "imbalance" between the 2 limbs. REMEMBER even the "conventional" drawing point of the bow ISN'T EXACTLY IN THE MIDDLE OF THE STRING EITHER :-O ! And on a 64 inch recurve bow, you're moving 5 fingers which - if you MEASURE it - really sums up to about 2 1/2 inches out of 64: only about a 4% (FOUR PERCENT) "imbalance" - NOT A BIG DEAL... MOST recurve bows are ALREADY DESIGNED so that you're ALREADY drawing almost 2 FULL FINGERS (1 1/4 inches) from CENTER ANYWAY, so a 5 finger stringwalking "gap" is really only about a 2% change from the DESIGNED DRAWING POINT :-O Tell me about YOU, your location, your bow and your distances you want to get good at ! Cheers, -Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
Way to exaggerated showing the cheek anchor point, its nowhere near that much on the side as you are showing in your video. I use my index finger on the cheek bone anchor and my string is right below my eye pupil, i dont need to do any left and right compensation. I can upload a video if someone is interested edit: Not to mention that you are on one hand unconditionally promoting something without being really detailed about all the aspects of the method and all the downsides, which are plenty, and on the other hand you are obviously trying for some reason to s*it on something that is used for centuries, way before string on the chin. Not to mention a lot of really stupid arguments as the one about the different range that you are getting with this two different methods, making people belive that they are really going to get some adventages with chin string versus cheek anchor... edit #2: And it is very sad that with that low amount of knowledge about archery in general obviously, or at least knowledge about anchor points you are trying to promote something to someone, especialy with things like " if you are anchoring to the cheek your hand is going to wobble" ??? or " if you want to release your hand need to float in the air to release" ???. Like seriously, have you ever watched any tutorial or video of our well known traditional archers? I just want to say for the record, i am not here to argue in any way, i let people use what fits them best, you like and prefer string on the chin, good for you, but i know how people are and they are definitly going to take all this for granted, so i typed all this just as a reminder for people that watch, research a bit more before you try something that is coming from a guy that didnt acctualy gave a lot of arguments other then blindly promoting something that he think is best! Best of luck edit #3: Omg, you dont even know the basics of the proper release, saying you need to move your hand from the cheek to open them. You dont open fingers for the string to go, string slides of your fingers. Man theres so many things wrong with you, with your attitude, with your method that i am pissed i acctualy came across this channel...
Greetings Boba, I'm going to leave your entire set of comments up, forever. I've been working on this channel for almost 2 years now, and I can say without a doubt (you can sift through all the comments up if you're so inclined) that yours is the FIRST negative comment I've received so far. I can't even COUNT the number of COMPLIMENTS I've received. I'm nearly 60 years old, and I've been an archer since I built my first takedown recurve bow in high school wood shop (typical for the hinterlands of northern Minnesota) way back in 1977. I can still shoot that bow - that's how well-made it was. Pretty good for a high school kid ;-) ... That said, you might be surprised to know that for the vast vast majority of my shooting I shot TRADITIONAL - JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE :-O - anchored at my cheek, and played with the height over the years (decades)... - drew back mostly Mediterranean grip, but I suppose I dabbled with 3-under off & on as well... - tried to learn different gaps (both up-down as well as left-right)... IN EVERY REGARD I WAS AS "TRADITIONAL" an archer as you appear to be. THEN around 2010 I purchased my first-ever COMPOUND BOW: a BROWNING AMBUSH 80 (65#) The SPEED & POWER of the bow wasn't what caught my attention - it was the ACCURACY... Like most archers then, I had 5 pins, all calibrated to 20, 30, 40, 50 and 60 yds It was SIMPLE... It was EASY... It was EFFORTLESS... I could even "interpolate" (shoot between-the-pins) so I could hit distances of 25, 35, 45 and 55 yds I even developed a clever technique where I "extrapolate" (shoot BEYOND-the-pins), and could easily hit distances of 65, 70, 75, 80, 85, 90, 95, 100, 105, and even 110 yds with surprising precision :-O ! THEN something started nagging at me about TRADITIONAL ARCHERY... ... I started QUESTIONING all the things that DIDN'T MAKE SENSE ABOUT IT. 1. WHY do we ANCHOR SO BLOODY HIGH? We LOSE literally 40 YARDS of DISTANCE ! 2. WHY do we ANCHOR OFF TO THE SIDE at ALL ??? NO ONE DOES THIS - NO ONE DELIBERATELY INTRODUCES LEFT-RIGHT ERROR INTO THEIR SIGHTING - OLYMPIC ARCHERS DON'T, in fact the idea would be LUDICROUS to them; - SNIPERS and other LONG-DISTANCE MARKSMEN DON'T - if you suggested they DELIBERATELY hold their gun TO THE SIDE OF THEIR CHEEK (even a little) and NOT look down the sights, they'd think you were DAFT; - COMPOUND ARCHERS DON'T, in fact they literally sight down the MIDDLE of the bowstring :-O Only "TRADITIONAL" archers DELIBERATELY introduce ERROR into their sighting technique - amazing ! :-O 3. WHY do we AIM at a POINT THAT'S NOT ACTUALLY ON THE @#$%# TARGET ??? I'm at a loss on this one; EVERY OTHER ARCHER/MARKSMAN uses a technique where they get to place their "sights" DIRECTLY ON THE DEAD-#$%^-CENTER of their target. Only "TRADITIONAL" archers decide NOT to do this. SO like every OTHER archer who owned BOTH a compound bow AND a "real" bow (and I DO consider long bows and recurve bows and asian bows to be REAL "bows", and compound bows are arrow-shooting MACHINES) I found myself shooting the compound bow MORE often, simply because I wanted/needed the ACCURACY... (note: if you're READING this respond and start wanting to retort "I can shoot TRADITIONAL every bit as accurately as a COMPOUND bow, then I'm going to gently and politely tell you you're full of crap ;-) - we BOTH know this ISN'T true. Period.) But even this always-shooting-COMPOUND felt like a CRUTCH; deep inside my psyche I KNEW what I was doing WASN'T "REAL" archery, because the simple truth is this: If I COULDN'T pick up ANY recurve or longbow handed to me and hit a pie plate at 10m, 20m, 30m and 40m effortlessly, then I REALLY DIDN'T KNOW "ARCHERY". Period. So I went BACK to "TRADITIONAL" archery with a vengeance... And just when I thought I'd improved my technique at 10m, 20m and 30m with a decent 55# recurve bow (Martin Saber), I'd find myself standing next to an OLYMPIC archer shooting a wimpy 35# bow... ... but they'd shoot WITH STARTLING ACCURACY at distances of 40m, 50m, 70m and even 80m :-O And I'd VAINLY try to anchor at my CHEEK and somehow place my arrow ON targets at 50m and beyond... ... only to see those arrows land woefully SHORT again & again & again, UNLESS I started shooting WAY ABOVE the target - at imaginary points-in-SPACE, like I was hurling a SPEAR instead of shooting a precision instrument like a LONG BOW or a RECURVE BOW :-( ... So after regularly getting my ASS handed to me by Olympic archers (and if you tell me that this NEVER happens to YOU, I'll again tell you politely you're full of shit), I set about STUDYING both COMPOUND BOW archery and OLYMPIC BOW archery, my 2 goals being quite simple: GOAL 1: Understand WHY these bows and shooting methods are SO MUCH MORE ACCURATE than "TRADITIONAL"; and GOAL 2: Discover a way to INCORPORATE the SECRETS that make these other archery methods SO accurate INTO "TRADITIONAL" archery. The RESULT? This "VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD" - part STRING WALKING, which I absolutely DIDN'T invent but my TECHNIQUE is quite clever; - part OLYMPIC ARCHERY anchoring & sighting, which I absolutely DIDN'T invent; and - part using-the-arrowhead-AS-the-front-pin, which I think I DO get credit for, only because at all distances I'm ACTUALLY placing this "sight" DIRECTLY ON the bullseye, as opposed to some gap-in-outer-space THAT'S IT. The ENTIRE "VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD" is comprised of 2 WELL-RESPECTED, WELL-ESTABLISHED, INDISPUTABLE archery techniques each of which are BEYOND REPROACH :-) THIS NOW BEGS ONE VERY IMPORTANT QUESTION that YOU Boba NEED TO ANSWER: IF my shooting method is really the simple combining of 2 ESTABLISHED, REPUTABLE techniques... AND IF you went out of your way to tell me how my shooting method has "SO MANY THINGS WRONG WITH IT"... Then WHICH parts of my shooting method are you REFERRING TO ??? If it's the ANCHORING method (under the chin), then are YOU saying OLYMPIC ARCHERY has "so many things WRONG with it" ??? If it's the STRING WALKING method, then are YOU saying that ALL STRING WALKERS have "something WRONG with them" ??? I'M teaching a method where you get to actually PUT the TIP of your ARROW RIGHT ON YOUR TARGET... ... and YOU have a PROBLEM with that??? I'M teaching a method where from the MOMENT I RELEASE I get to WATCH the arrowhead travel from the bow to the BULLSEYE THE ENTIRE TRIP. There ISN'T a SINGLE other shooting method which can make THIS claim (NOT compound, NOT Olympic, NOT even TRADITIONAL)... and YOU have a PROBLEM with that ??? I'M teaching a method which empowers even a NEW archer to be SUCCESSFUL nearly IMMEDIATELY in an UNDERSTANDABLE, PREDICTABLE, REPRODUCABLE and TEACHABLE way... and YOU have a PROBLEM with that??? I'M teaching a method where you can SIGHT down the ARROW yet NOT place your NOSE in between the bowstring and the riser, so you NEVER get the SKIN SCRAPED OFF YOUR NOSE (NOT even the BEST barebow archers in the WORLD can make THIS claim - they wear TAPE on their noses in competition!)... and YOU have a PROBLEM with that??? I'M teaching a method which empowers a new archer to precisely set their elevation (hence range) to within +/- 2 METERS of accuracy, across distances from 5m all the way out to 90m... and YOU have a PROBLEM with this ??? I'M teaching a method which can be taught to ANYONE (maybe even YOU) in 5 steps and 30 seconds, and that person immediately STOPS being DANGEROUS with a DEADLY WEAPON, and instead becomes an ARCHER... ... and YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THIS ??? LIKE I SAID AT THE START, I'm LEAVING YOUR COMMENTS UP FOREVER, because I'm very very CONFIDENT in my method, and in my arguments AGAINST you considering something "wrong" with my method, and I want EVERYONE visiting this website - both now & in the future - to be able to SEE this entire thread. YOU on the other hand need to spend some time asking YOURSELF just WHAT is it that's BUGGING you about "my" method, because if you try to SHIT on "my" method what you'll ACTUALLY be doing is shitting on STRING WALKING and OLYMPIC ARCHERY, and NOT "my" method at all. And that's going to get YOU a lot more ENEMIES than ME making some light-spirited fun of some of my fellow traditional archers ;-) ... TELL YOU WHAT... HOW ABOUT I COME TO YOU FOR A VISIT AND A FRIENDLY SHOOT-OUT ? If you're within 400 miles of North Aurora IL, I will gladly come to shoot at your range. I would only ask that you invite 5 to 10 to 20 of your fellow traditional archers to join in the fun. We're going to shoot at targets from 5m to 70m, and when we're done, I'm going to post the results here on my TH-cam Channel. IF YOU WIN, won't that be something?? You'll get to see Mark Vogt and his "VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD" eat a big steaming pile of crow... ... but if MARK WINS (and I mean ALL of YOU - the entire LOT of your traditional archers), then YOU have to come back to this channel and TELL everyone what you saw. In fact, If you're within 600 miles of North Aurora IL, I'll still come - I've got plenty of PTO accrued that all I need to worry about is GAS and a HOTEL ROOM. So tell me where you are Boba, because I'm in the mood to PROVE my method. It's really a question of whether or not YOU'RE capable to proving YOUR "opinions". ;-) Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
RATS !!! You're in PIROT, SERBIA ??? HOW the HELL are we supposed to manage a FRIENDLY SHOOT OUT if I have to fly all the way to SOUTHEAST SERBIA just to shoot with you??? Luckily I have other shooting buddies who are Serbian (no I'm NOT kidding - I really do!) They immigrated here when they were in their 20's, but now they're all in their mid-40's... They ONLY shoot COMPOUND BOWS (typical), but even this summer told me they'd started shooting BAREBOW, and were practicing my shooting method, and they're CONVINCED IT HAS MERIT. So I guess it's just YOU over there in Pirot, working in a tire shop. You're the ONLY one who thinks he knows BETTER ;-) ... WHAT ABOUT THIS? DO you have any FRIENDS or RELATIVES here in the USA, who ALSO like archery as much as you & me, but who are CLOSE enough to me that I can come to THEM, DEMONSTRATE this shooting method, COMPETE against them, and have THEM tell YOU if it's all bullshit or not? That would actually be a COOL ADVENTURE for this TH-cam channel ! BY THE WAY... I also see that you're just a KID. That makes your criticism even MORE ANNOYING, because I'VE been an ARCHER and I've been shooting TRADITIONAL literally LONGER THAN YOU'VE BEEN ALIVE. IMAGINE some punk little 8 year old trying to tell YOU how to shoot a bow... ... and you'll know what it's like for me to read YOU telling ME how to shoot a bow. Sorry to be provoking you SO MUCH, but it's actually YOU who are annoying - I'M just defending myself. THINKING OUT LOUD... IF I DID fly all the way to PIROT to come shoot with you & your archery buddies, I would have to shoot YOUR bows, as I wouldn't be able to travel with my own bow. I'd bring my own finger glove and forearm guard - that's about it. WHERE do you guys SHOOT in Pirot?? When I talk to GERMANS and SPANIARDS and ITALIANS and TURKISH subscribers (I have lots of them), they all make it sound like shooting "outdoors" is IMPOSSIBLE in Europe, so what do YOU guys do? Waiting to hear from you, -Mark
Greetings & Merry Christmas Jeffery ! I... THINK you've giving me a COMPLIMENT? Hard to tell ;-) ... If it IS a compliment (because I AM an engineer with MULTIPLE Masters Degrees, and I DO have a SOLID understanding of Archery Dynamics), then THANK YOU :-) ... -Mark PS: feel free to watch some of my recent VIBRATION-DAMPING videos, and you'll what else I understand about BOWS-MAKING-NOISE as well !
Was neither a compliment nor dig just a informative comment for viewers. Last time I checked they don’t give Masters degrees for archery but congratulations on your hard work to achieve them. Your description of the Olympic archery anchor point is lacking understanding of archery form. This also stands true for your explanation of the side of face anchor. This is why I said “This could make since to those without a solid understanding of archery dynamics and form.” Without understanding of how the rest of the body should work to achieve proper alignment this could make since. You very well may understand this but your video doesn’t translate it and could give some very bad habits resulting in injuries to shoulders. It is great to see someone with a passion for traditional archery and willing to put themselves out there with the intentions to help others start in this great sport. Merry Christmas to you and yours!
@@jefferyhernandez4222 Did you mean "make SENSE" (not "make since") in your first post? That was a point of confusion for me... NEVER stated having a "Masters degree in ARCHERY" did I? Just multiple Masters degrees in Engineering (U of MN IT) and ComputerScience/AI (IIT),and spent 4+ years teaching college Physics, Engineering & Calculus, so my knowledge of Ballistics and Mechanics of Motion is actually pretty solid...
Greetings Jeffery ! I didn't ever claim to have a "Masters Degree in ARCHERY"; I did claim several "Masters Degrees", which happen to be Mechanical Engineering(Robotics) from U of MN IT and Computer Science (AI) from IIT; also in previous videos I may have mentioned that I spent about 4+ years as a college Calculus and Physics Professor, so my grasp of Ballistic Motion and Mechanics in general is pretty solid :-) ... YOU keep saying something about "making SINCE", and I'm NOT clear what you mean - do you mean "making SENSE"? A key point I keep trying to make is that Traditional-style cheek-anchoring actually INTRODUCES DIFFERING AMOUNTS OFLATERAL ERROR on EVERY shot at EVERY DISTANCE - error which must be mentally compensated-for on EVERY shot, and hence places large (and UNnecessary) challenges on TRADITIONAL archers compared to their Olympic-style and Compound-style counterparts... To ME it's CLEAR that Olympic-style anchoring serves MULTIPLE purposes: - YOUR focus seems to be on OPTIMAL BODY ALIGNMENT, presumably in order to MINIMIZE POSSIBLE INJURY; such that when I DON'T mention this you appear to interpret this as a "lack of understanding" on MY part; - MY focus has been on making everyone understand something MORE interesting and IMPORTANT: Olympic-style anchoring enables an archer's SIGHTING EYE to be ALIGNED NEARLY PERFECTLY OVER THE SHAFT OF THE ARROW, virtually ELIMINATING the LATERAL ERROR that cheek-anchoring introduces ! -- Anyone (including me) who has shot both COMPOUND bows, OLYMPIC RECURVE bows (with T-bar sight) AND TRADITIONAL bows will have eventually arrived at this VERY SAME "EPIPHANY" about TRADITIONAL-style archery, so I'm NOT claiming to have "discovered" something here... Also, -- Anyone (including me) who has ANCHORED both ON-CHEEK and UNDER-CHIN will ALSO have had ANOTHER epiphany: anchoring UNDER-chin provides a STARTLING AMOUNT OF ADDITIONAL ELEVATION in the ARROW, resulting in a surprising INCREASED RANGE with even SMALL-DRAW-WEIGHT BOWS :-O (note: THIS explains - FINALLY - why so many TRADITIONAL archers look on in DISBELIEF at the distances they CAN'T hit while Olympic archers with smaller bows CAN; their cheek-anchoring is quite literally shooting-them-in-the-foot not ONCE but TWICE ! #1: INCREASED ERROR and #2: DECREASED RANGE...) Neither you nor I are "wrong" about our perception of Olympic-style anchoring; I simply perceive we're focused on two DIFFERENT aspects of this method :-). You are the first (only?) viewer to comment on a possible lack-of-explanation in MY videos which MAY lead to newbie archers possibly injuring themselves. THIS part I need to take as SERIOUS, CONSTRUCTIVE feedback from YOU - a fellow archer - so watch for me to work to include more explanations in future videos. MY GOAL FOR THIS CHANNEL IS EVER THE SAME: to provide newbie archers of all kinds (even compound bows with NO sights and NO release :-O!) a simple, easy-to-learn, easy-to-perfect SHOOTING METHOD that is COMPLETELY "PORTABLE" - you literally "carry it in your pocket", and it can be used on ANY bow of ANY type and ANY draw weight, and still yield EXCELLENT RESULTS while encouraging only SAFE BODY MECHANICS which minimize injuries. Your feedback today helps me continue to improve my videos, so for that you have my THANKS :-). -Mark | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS PS: I know NOTHING about you, and am always interested to know WHERE you're from and HAVE you TRIED this method? Cheers - MV
Wow.....🤦🏼 just way to much to correct. P.S. you obtain the same string/arrow alignment with both anchor points with proper bone alignment, you only change your arrow to target gap.
Your anchoring seems similar to @JakeKaminskiArchery when he shoot’s bare bow but yours seems just a little more directly under the front portion of your chin.
Greetings Max ! Did YOU just compare MY shooting method to a LEGEND like Jake Kaminski ??? Wow ! I'LL TAKE THAT AS A COMPLIMENT ! I have a curious question to ask you: Jake's been shooting for most of his life, but he's only been shooting BAREBOW for less than 2 years. QUESTION: when YOU watch ALL of Jake's "barebow" videos from the first to the current, do YOU see any CHANGES in his anchoring position? Let me know back here - I have a reason for asking ;-) ! -Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
Cerca, You & I are in agreement about truly "floating" anchors - there ARE risks involved in this technique. THAT SAID, next time you're at the RANGE and WATCHING others shoot barebow, pay close attention to just HOW MANY archers out there in fact DO "float" their anchors - it's FAR MORE COMMON than you might realize :-O ! I've even got really good SHOOTING BUDDIES who display this less-than-idea habit, and I can TELL you WHY it happens: THEY STOP SHOOTING ALOT, so they get WEAK, and they CAN'T DRAW BACK THEIR BOWS ANYMORE ! NOT KIDDING - this really really happens. ALL THE TIME. I even see total STRANGERS coming to the range with a 50# bow they have absolutely NO business drawing back. SO WHAT HAPPENS? SIMPLE: They TRY to attain a FULL draw... but they CAN'T, so ... THEY DON'T. INSTEAD their anchor just "sits" out there at about 27 INCHES instead of 28, so they're NOT touching ANY PART of their jaw or face or cheek; then "TWANG" they just LET FLY. It's weird, but it's REALLY happening out there. Perhaps you need to shoot around a lot MORE people, then you'll see how common this is... "A FACE ANCHOR DOESN'T FLOAT" Again we completely AGREE... but this DOESN"T mean I consider a FACE ANCHOR a "good" thing either. LET ME EXPLAIN THIS: - WHEN you anchor against your FACE, your FINGER MUST make CONTACT with your face. This is UNAVOIDABLE. - the CONSEQUENCE of this is that in order to RELEASE your fingers from the bowstring then, WHAT must happen? - THAT'S RIGHT - your FINGERS absolutely MUST "PUSH" AGAINST your cheek as you release ! - When THIS happens, 1 of 2 things MUST happen: 1. Your FACE MUST MOVE to the side so that the fingers are FREE, and the bowstring is UNDEFLECTED; OR 2. Your FACE STAYS FIXED, and that means your FINGERS move, but your FINGERS are holding the BOWSTRING, SO THE BOWSTRING NECESSARILY MUST SHIFT TO THE SIDE ! :-| CAN people COMPENSATE for this? Yes. But my POINT is - THIS DOES HAPPEN WITH FACE ANCHORING - THERE'S NO ESCAPING THIS . NOW ask yourself WHAT HAPPENS when you ANCHOR UNDER YOUR CHIN, then RELEASE the BOWSTRING ? ANSWER: NOTHING - the bowstring has NO reason to SHIFT, either to the left or right :-O STUFF TO PONDER ON A TUESDAY EVENING ;-) ... Cheers, -Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
@@VOGTLANDOUTDOORS yeah I’m not trying to discount your chin release. I think it has some serious advantages, especially when it comes to distance shooting. I just get like I have to defend my face release when I hear you running it down. 🤣 I think there is space in this world for both techniques. And I get that there isn’t just one way to skin a cat. Even a guy like Jake Kaminski (Olympic recurve silver medalist) shoots with a slightly lower anchor for barebow, but when you look at guys like John Demmer, Grayson Partlowe, Michael Fisher, John Dillinger... anybody who is competition proven and wins podium positions... these guys all anchor along their face. It’s true of indoor spot and 3D alike. Now I get that that doesn’t mean it’s the only way to do a thing. Everybody has to find their own path, and like I’ve said, I have a lot of respect for the anchor you’ve chosen. But clearly a face anchor has been proven for its accuracy. So when you run that down, I’m not sure your giving it it’s fair do. That’s all. 😉👍✌️🏹 Much respect. May our arrows fly true, friend!
@@VOGTLANDOUTDOORS also one more point... my fingers don’t push against my face on release. I have a fairly shallow hook. Shallower than some of my betters even recommend, but when I’m about to release I am expanding. I’m keeping forward tension with my bow arm and in my string side rhomboid, fully getting into my back, so at the break my fingers are (ideally) slipping back along my face. A release should never be the consequence of opening the hook fingers but rather a combination of increased tension along the desired arrow trajectory while at the same time fully relaxing all muscles of the hand. That way the break is more like the string slipping from the hook than actively released. If that makes any sense.
INTERESTING POST TODAY ! I MUST ask: IF your fingers AREN'T pushing (touching) your face on release, THEN... you're FLOATING, now AREN'T you ? ;-) FUNNY how so many guys DENY floating, but ALSO deny making contact with their cheek. CAN'T have BOTH - you're either CONTACTING (and therefore PUSHING as your fingers extend, whether you REALIZE it or not) or you're FLOATING... Enjoy your day ! -Mark
I hear your logic, but the difference between what you’re saying and reality with Olympic style recurve archery is the sight…..trad bows don’t use a sight, OR bows do. The reason you don’t use a cheek anchor with OR is because you can no longer use the sighting system. Your argument is good, and workable if not successful with practice. I have shot OR and Compund, and now fully shoot trad and I find cheek works far better than OR at 30-50 yards…..
Greetings AverageAshi ! ANSWER: In most of my videos I'm shooting these 2 (favorite) bows: 1. Blue (fishing colors I guess) Martin JAGUAR 55# bow; and 2. Camo (hunting) Martin SABRE 55# bow LOVE both bows. Hard to decide between them. IF had to choose ONE... would go with the MARTIN JAGUAR, because the RISER has been milled to accept ILF limbs, and THAT'S COOL :-O Cheers, -Mark | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
@@VOGTLANDOUTDOORS thanks! Love your videos. No nonsense and really helpful. Ive been introduced to archery in the olympic style and yes, i can say that the sight picture is way better when anchoring under the chin. Keep the videos coming 😁
Hi Bill Barry ! Ha - yes - a 100 yard shot IS a tough shot for a bow, and an even tougher shot with a BAREBOW... ... but check out THIS recent video I just shot about 2 weeks ago: SHORTS (1 minute) version: th-cam.com/users/shortsWaH0LwO8coY ORIGINAL VERSION: th-cam.com/video/BaB1499Fe50/w-d-xo.html Hopefully this will make you re-think at least TRYING to shoot at 100yds ;-) Cheers, -Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
Greetings Jaded and welcome to VOGTLAND OUTDOORS ! INTERESTING COMMENT from you: "looks uncomfortable to shoot UNDER THE CHIN" Are you aware that this is PRECISELY the SAME anchor used by ALL OLYMPIC RECURVE ARCHERS WORLD-WIDE ??? :-O Yup - it's true. I DIDN'T "invent' this technique - I BORROWED this time-tested, competition-tested technique :-O ! LINK TO PICTURES OF OLYMPIC ARCHERS ANCHORING UNDER THEIR CHIN: www.google.com/search?q=%22olympic+recurve%22+archers+shooting&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwij8aWpo5v9AhVLTrgEHfk1D9UQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=%22olympic+recurve%22+archers+shooting&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQAzoECCMQJ1D3FFjvJGCFJmgAcAB4AIAB5wSIAfkPkgEHMi0zLjUtMpgBAKABAaoBC2d3cy13aXotaW1nwAEB&sclient=img&ei=E8fuY-ObH8uc4dUP-eu8qA0&bih=905&biw=1920&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS954US954 VISIT that link, and in it you'll see literally EVERY champion Olympic Recurve Archer and their form... ... and - without exception - they are ALL OF THEM ANCHORING UNDER THEIR CHIN. Hope this gives you some "homework" - and a great reason to take out your recurve bow (or borrow one) and do some fun EXPERIMENTING ! Cheers, -Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
Saxton pope and art young shot 3 under anchoring below the chin, they did not walk the string however. They were known for taking game at long ranges (having a 60~yard point on distance). The issue i feel with your method, is the "crawl" for short ranges is far too large for shorter distances for the bow to remain in proper tune as well as making the bow excessively noisy. The static release you describe is also problematic, in that follow through should always be emphasized. A good release like that of an olympic style archer is a beautiful thing, that not only increases speed, but lends itself to better alignment upon loose and consistancy. Believe me, i have shot, hunted and competed with traditional tackle aswell as competed in olympic style recurve. A "traditional" cheek anchor does infact line the arrow up below the eye and can be incredibly consistent by anchoring on a particular tooth, cheek or jaw bone. My particular anchor being my index finger on my eye tooth, with the knuckle resting under my cheekbone, giving me a point on distance of roughly 35 yards with a 47# longbow and 550 grain arrows, plenty for hunting, even on the southern alberta prairies i live with little cover, and have taken mule deer at over 40 yards, any further unless starving is unethical, (aside from gophers :) furthest being 121 paces). The olympic style anchor also better lends itself to longer (66"+) bows, having a lower string angle allowing the string to anchor against your nose without tipping your head forward. Windage with a properly tuned setup is never an issue, aiming off center unless because of wind unnecessary, not like you described. I used to shoot in excess of 100 yards quite regular and windage was rarely the issue. While I applaud your efforts and enthusiasm, i feel your method is somewhat clumsy as well as noisy. Shooting longer ranges reliably takes dedication regardless of aiming method or equipment and there are no shortcuts.
Greetings Luke,
Thank you for the thoughtful, detailed comment.
A key difference between what I teach and the masters you cited is that Saxton and Art both possessed a skill which was part natural (something NOT everyone has) and part long-term dedicated effort. In other words, NOT EVERYONE can shoot like these guys.
In contrast, the method I teach & promote CAN be learned by ANYONE, and can be learned in UNDER A MINUTE :-O
As for "tune" - this is a topic I long debate with bowyers, because my own methodical, scientific research has proven to me again & again that the "imbalance" that so many bowyers and archers CLAIM is in truth SURPRISINGLY SMALL:
EXAMPLE: I have ACTUAL MEASUREMENTS that when I shoot my 60# recurve bow and StringWalk for 5m (SHORTEST distance, LARGEST gap) a whopping 4 FINGERWIDTHS (3 INCHES) below the arrow...
... the DIFFERENCE in DISPLACEMENT between my UPPER limb and LOWER limb is a mere 1/4 INCH :-O
AND the DIFFERENCE in TENSION between my UPPER-half bowstring and LOWER-half bowstring is a mere HALF POUND :-O
UPSHOT:
- the "mis-tune" that some many detractors of StringWalking like to claim simply ISN'T TRUE; AND
- any IMBALANCE in the limbs is READILY "absorbed" by even an "average" arrow, just as these arrow absorb the shock of a "balanced" pair of limbs; AND
- THE ARROW CAN'T TELL THE DIFFERENCE between "balanced" limbs and "unbalanced" limbs. Period.
THIS is an EXCELLENT topic for an upcoming video !
GREAT COMMENTS !!!
Thanx Mike!
I am a newbie since...probably March 2020 and I find adapting to your methods are very-very useful and better than 100% sticking to conventional methods!
Great to hear!
I am new to archery 2020. So I must thank you for your videos. They really help the new people to got on target. I shoot a FLEETWOOD bow with Walmart arrows. With what you are teaching I have gone from trying to hit my bag target to hitting my mark, And doing it at different ranges.
Greetings Fred !
ARCHERS LIKE YOU ARE THE REASON I BUILT THIS TH-cam CHANNEL !
Thanks !
-Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
Excellent points Sir!
GLAD YOU FOUND IT USEFUL !
So good gotta watch again here in Tucson Az home of PSE Archery Cheers!
Greetings William!
GREAT to hear from you!
LOVE PSE too!
WATCH the playlist for VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD!
I’m working for 10 years to become an overnight sensation ;-)…
Cheers
Mark Vogt / VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
Extremely interesting: I love it when people go back to basics and challenge orthodoxy with well-argued logic. Couple of questions : (1) If you migrate to under the chin anchor, doesn't your draw length shorten & wouldn't this mean retuning your arrows and sight picture? (2) I shoot split finger, and gap-shoot , mostly 3D with targets mostly between 15 & 50 yards: wouldn't under the chin mean the gaps at the closer ranges be excessively large?
Greetings Ned & Welcome to VOGTLAND OUTDOORS !
I get this question often enough that I made a video answering it:
studio.th-cam.com/users/videoOZse_yvbKQc
I think you're about to be pleasantly surprised!
-Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
I am new to archery and been experiencing inconsistency when shooting at 15m target. I've just found your video and I will give it a go next time I go to the shooting range. But base on the comments and your explaination, I just need to do it the right way (on your instruction, of course)
Greetings HeatBlast & welcome to VOGTLAND OUTDOORS !
GLAD you found this site - we're here to help !
Inconsistency - particularly with newbies - can be traced down to a few things:
1. MUSCLE CONDITION: your muscles get fatigued quickly, resulting in "wobble"
FIX: Regular (multiple times a week) shooting; 30 arrows per "session".
EXPECT this to take no less than 3 WEEKS of regular shooting to feel it
EXPECT to FEEL a change in how STABLE you feel after that !
EXPECT that with improved STABILITY comes improved CONSISTENCY !
2. FLOATING ANCHOR: your drawing hand is "floating" OFF of your cheek or chin
FIX: Use my shooting method - you'll be PRESSING the 2nd knuckle of your index finger FIRMLY against the front corner UNDER YOUR CHIN. This helps forms a VERY STRONG "TRIANGLE" between that knuckle, your elbow and your shoulder.
3.FLASHY RELEASE: your release motion is too "flashy" or "flamboyant". Since you're holding the STRING when you do this, you're introducing MOVEMENT (read "ERROR") into each shot, resulting in yes-you-guess-it INCONSISTENCY.
FIX: work at making a "small-motion" release - see my shooting method.
4. SLOPPY AIMING: you're not being PRECISE and REPRODUCIBLE in how you aim, you end up with "garbageIN-garbage-OUT. Simple as that.
FIX: my shooting method is about as simple as it gets:
- Anchor UNDER your CHIN, so you're looking RIGHT DOWN THE ARROW
- LOOK down the LEFT EDGE of the bowstring - when your index
finger is firmly pressed against your chin/jaw, your eye can sight
PRECISELY down this left edge JUST AS IF you had a REAR SIGHT;
- PUT the TIP of the arrowhead DIRECTLY on the CENTER of the
bullseye - THIS IS YOUR FRONT SIGHT !
- Perform a SMALL-MOTION release
Give these a try - you'll see your groupings improve !
Cheers,
-Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
@@VOGTLANDOUTDOORS update after a week at shooting range
I still have some inconsistency, that's on me of course. However, when I follow your instruction, I found my comfortable anchor point, which is a little bit to the right under my chin. And the position of my head and neck also affect the shot. And I'm also working on my release, too. It just doesn't feel right even when I place my shot firmly.
I will give it a try as I'm having trouble with my lower pound bow hitting longer targets. Thanks !
Greetings Virgil !
GLAD you're interested in giving this shooting method a try !
WHAT IS the Draw Weight of your "lower pound" bow?
Tell me here, and I'll tell you what I KNOW is possible :-).
FACT: I can shoot my HUNTING ARROWS out of my (adult) daughter's 22# Samick bow and hit near-dead-center at 50m :-O !...
Here's the video:
th-cam.com/video/S895VNou-Hk/w-d-xo.html
Looking forward to hearing from you !
-Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
My bow is a Olympic style 70" 30lbs at 28" I think my draw is 29" @@VOGTLANDOUTDOORS
Nice explanation!! I experienced this same thing yesterday. Shooting with anchoring point on the lip edge and string walked two fingers down from knocking point for 30m, one finger down for 40m upgrading it to just not space for better aiming. One finger over the knocking point and two below for 50m, with some difficulties. And finally with an anchoring point under my chin and three fingers underneath my chin for 60m with a little big high aiming point. All with 30lbs limbs, so quite happy with the mixture of methods, anchoring and positions as well as results. Tomorrow will try with 36lbs limbs to see which methods are better for the different distances.
Greetings again CeQuRKV!
HERE'S REALITY:
MOST barebow archery works BEST when you're pulling a 40# to 45# bow. Period.
- Any HEAVIER (stronger) than 40# (say 50# to 60#) you'll get tired easily, and your fingers will hurt unless you have a really THICK GLOVE too, and you'll need to practice 3-4 TIMES A WEEK;
- Any LIGHTER (weaker) than 40#, (say 20# to 35#) and you'll be using very SMALL gaps AND gaps ABOVE the arrow, and on top of that you'll find that your finger release becomes VERY SENSITIVE to ANY mis-release, so you'll shoot BADLY :-O
I own quite a few bows (maybe 12 to 14)
Since last year I rarely shoot the 60# bows anymore.
Since last year I rarely shoot the 22# bows anymore either - they're really really "twitchy".
I shoot my few 40# to 45# bows ALL THE TIME, and really ENJOY IT, and I shoot them REALLY WELL at ALL DISTANCES, from 5m (a gap of 4 fingers below the arrow) to 90m (a gap of 2 fingers above the arrow), and I can shoot ALL DAY LONG. Plus a 40# to 45# bowstring pulls hard enough OUT of your fingers that your release ISN'T "twitchy" :-) ...
ON TOP OF IT ALL, in ALL states in the USA the MINIMUM DRAW WEIGHT FOR HUNTING IS 40#.
I hope this makes sense.
WORK your way up to 40#. You'll never regret it.
Cheers,
-Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
@@VOGTLANDOUTDOORS Thanks a lot!! Very much appreciated the answer and explanation about poundage and ranges to select. It is my intention to increase the poundage I'm using gradually, so I will be with my 36lbs limbs for at least half a year before going up again, to build muscle endurance a correct my form. I think the next one if I can train properly at the range and the gym will be the 42 or 44 poundage. Sadly, to hunt I will need to move to any country around, as in the UK is not allowed, but is something I will try in the future for sure, even knowing I need to draw 50 in some countries!!.
Greetings CeQu RKV !
WHERE ARE YOU?
You're NOT allowed to bow hunt in the UK?? BUMMER !
What about... SCOTLAND? IRELAND? FRANCE (via the chunnel)?
I wonder why some countries want a 50# (25+ Kg??) just for BOW HUNTING?
That makes for LAZY hunters who then can take a LONGER shot rather than learn STEALTH to approach their prey CLOSER... Even COMPOUND Archers will 60# and 70# hunting bows ONLY have to pull 60# for the briefest of moments, then they're only actually HOLDING about 10# at full draw!
TELL me where you're at!
Cheers,
-Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
@@VOGTLANDOUTDOORS Hey Mark!! I'm living in England, where curiously, is not legal to hunt but you can do the training for the IBEP, but originally from Spain and with the doors open to travel and shoot in many other countries around because of family and friends.
In Ireland, we can only hunt varmints, and in England, only on your own property is a legal vacuum also to shoot at varmints. So the people must take care of those guinea pigs escaping from home if they are living closer to an archer :).
The 50lbs min is to be able to hunt in France and Spain, the two places nearest to me and easy to travel to with the bow and equipment, and, in my opinion, with awesome places where you can go to navigate/camp/hunt.
Here you have a link to a page where you can find where are be able to shoot and the conditions (no updated since 2020, but must contain the contact info):
europeanbowhunting.org/nations/
I'm still learning a lot, so I'm not in a hurry, but I would like to be able to get out hunting next year, as I'm a novice, shooting only since last October, but with very good results in indoor competitions (achieving to shoot at the national finals) and now trying outdoors, aiming for the 3D courses as soon as I can, I suppose after the national qualifications.
I have a lack of time to watch all the videos, but I would like to transmit my gratitude for the variety and quality of yours, explaining all range of concepts/techniques/styles.
Boba was so right with his critics. The disadvantages of your anchor under the chin are much higher. Because you're loosing a lot of precision for near distances when your anchor is under your chin. With under the cheek you can easily have point zero at 55-60 yards. For WA you need only 33 yards and for IFAA it's maximum 60 yd. Only at field archery you're shooting 70 yd.
With your methode it is quite impossible to achieve at 20 yd at 40 cm WA target over 500 points.
If you have fun with shooting only at 60-120 yd okay, there you go with your anchor. But at competitions distances you will loose.
Greetings Daniel!
You and Boba continue to both be quite quite wrong.
I think you both need to stop simply WATCHING the videos and commenting on them...
... and get out there and TRY the method ;-) .
THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU JUST SAID:
"... you're losing a lot of precision for near distances when your anchor is under your chin."
SERIOUSLY ?
Are you forgetting two important FACTS?
- the MAJORITY of OLYMPIC TARGET ARCHERS all shoot at "NEAR DISTANCES" (18m, 25m); AND
- ALL OLYMPIC TARGET ARCHERS anchor UNDER THEIR CHIN !
:-O
HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN YOUR FLAWED POINT OF VIEW IN LIGHT OF THESE FACTS?!!
:-O
And here's ANOTHER FACT:
- The ONLY other difference between The VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD and CLASSICAL OLYMPIC TARGET ARCHERY is WHAT YOUR USE FOR A "FRONT SIGHT":
-- OLYMPIC ARCHERY uses a MECHANICAL SIGHT mounted DIRECTLY ABOVE THE ARROW SHAFT;
-- VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD uses the ARROW TIP actually AS the FRONT SIGHT.
WHY am I bringing up THIS point?
Simple - try to follow this logic:
1. YOU'RE asserting that the VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD is IMPRECISE a short distances;
2. I can EASILY prove that the VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD is for all-intents-and-purposes
IDENTICAL in its mechanics (including anchor point) to OLYMPIC TARGET ARCHERY; AND
3. OLYMPIC TARGET ARCHERY'S precision-at-short-distances is BEYOND DISPUTE; THEREFORE
4. The VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD'S precistion-at-short-distances is also BEYOND dispute !
:-O
IDEA - IT JUST SO HAPPENS that lately it's been EXTREMELY WINDY here in the midwest USA, with 30-40mph (50-60km/hr) cross winds at our archery range, so I happened to be shooting at UNUSUALLY SHORT DISTANCES of 10m one afternoon...
... and my groupings of 6 arrows (some even BADLY FLETCHED) were all INSIDE THE YELLOW ON a 40cm TARGET.
IF I shot all 60 arrows the same as I shot those 6 (look at my posting in COMMUNITY), I would EASILY be in the HIGH 500's - in fact it would be BORING it would be so easy :-) !
HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THE ACCURACY IN THE PICTURE I POSTED?
And HERE"s the MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION:
WHAT IF you both STOPPED WHINING AND DENYING this shooting-method-whose-foundation-is-GROUNDED-on-OLYMPIC-ARCHERY techniques and instead TRY IT !
I mean, if a 60 year old Data Scientist who's old and has had target panic for 2 years now can shoot like THIS...
... IMAGINE what 2 younger, stronger, steadier archers like YOU & BOBA would shoot :-O ...
The only thing holding you both BACK from an extraordinary change in your own abilities is your EGOS.
Bummer.
Egos SUCK.
I lost MY ego 2 years ago, when target panic literally HIT me in a single weekend (like COVID), and I suddenly realized I was (likely) never going to shoot with as much confidence (and steadiness that comes with confidence) ever again. That SUCKED.
But YOU two guys?
Your egos appear to be still alive & well ;-) - too bad.
Go check out the picture and come back and tell everyone your thoughts !
-Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
@ DANIEL...
FORGOT TO MENTION:
I've competed twice last year and twice this year in the STATE INDOOR 18m & 25m BAREBOW TOURNAMENTS:
- LAST year I took SECOND in the 18m and THIRD in the 25m;
- THIS year I took THIRD in the 18m and SECOND in the 25m;
- THIS year I'll be competing in the 50m outdoor and even the 180m CLOUT SHOOTS
(DAMN! - hope I DIDN'T just JINX myself; if I DID - I BLAME YOU TWO TROLLS!)
HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN ALL THESE MEDALS, if the ACCURACY OF THE METHOD AT SHORT DISTANCES IS IMPOSSIBLE?
AND I'm shooting my $300 HUNTING BOW with NO WEIGHTS and NO PLUNGER and NOT EVEN AN ARROW REST (I shoot of the SHELF) with my $6 each HUNTING ARROWS, so that the guys who beat me are shooting $1500 bows with $50 arrows, and ALL THEY DO IS TARGET ARCHERY.
ME?
I play competitive (I'm an NTSA "4") tennis multiple times a week;
I run multiple times a week (28 half-marathons, 4 full marathons, 2 sprint triathlons);
I fish 6 days a week in the summer;
I bike 3-5 days a week
I fly drones (I own about $15,000 worth of drones, and design my own & RC planes);
I DO LOTS & LOTS OF OTHER STUFF BESIDES SHOOT AT TARGETS ALL WEEK...
... and with my shooting method I come in 2nd place ONLY to guys who ONLY SHOOT.
:-O
HOW MANY MEDALS or TROPHIES DO YOU HAVE SO FAR?
BOBA? You out there? HOW MANY MEDALS/TROPHIES do YOU HAVE so FAR?
Id' like to understand where your CREDIBILITY is coming from, after all this critiquing.
Awaiting your reply,
- Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
1 WEEK LATER...
FUNNY how you and that Boba guy just come in here ONCE - 6 MONTHS AGO - and post ONCE - and then DISAPPEAR...
Pretty sure that's the very DEFINITION of 'troll' ;-) ...
This seems awesome dude! Love it:) im mainly a compound shooter, but im getting my first barebow this week. Will definitely try this method!
Simple but seems so much better ,watched loads ur vids thx
Nice video mate answered a lot of questions that I had, just out of interest what sort of rest is that on your Martin. Cheers
Greetings Monday and welcome to VOGTLAND OUTDOORS !
Glad you found this (older) video informative & useful - there are many more like it - feel free to watch more!
My RESTS are about as primitive as it gets. Here's what I use:
amzn.to/46xvLXy
Cheers,
-Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
@@VOGTLANDOUTDOORS thankyou heaps Mark I will definitely check them out. Cheers
To get a full 28" draw on my bow I have been anchoring at my temple and basically using my knuckles as pins. I've gotten pretty good doing it that way but I'm going to try the chin method later today. I never string walked before either.
Greetings & Welcome Jim !
HMMMM.... are you SURE you're anchoring at your TEMPLE???
Your "temple" is that portion of the SIDE of your skull just BEHIND your EYE SOCKET and IN FRONT of your EAR :-O !!
Your CHEEKBONE? Sure - THAT's quite common.
But your TEMPLE?
You'd be literally looking down the LEFT SIDE of the entire arrow...
... AND your bowstring would (I would think) be TEARING YOUR NOSE off with EVERY release !
The worst thing is, by anchoring SO HIGH UP YOUR HEAD you've lost literally 60 YARDS of possible range that you COULD have by simply anchoring UNDER your CHIN :-O !!!
THINK ABOUT IT...
- the HIGHER you ANCHOR on your face... the HIGHER the REAR of your arrow is...
- the HIGHER the REAR of your arrow is... the LOWER the FRONT of your arrow is...
- the LOWER the FRONT of your arrow is... the SHORTER the RANGE that's possible with your bow :-|
There's no escaping the physics here, unless you're perfectly ok with aiming at a point WAY ABOVE the actual TARGET.
I developed MY method because I REQUIRED that my arrowhead act as my FRONT PIN, meaning my arrowhead is literally ON THE BULLSEYE at every single distance I shoot - from 5m to 100m :-O.
I PREDICT that - with YOUR curiosity, open-mindedness and determination, you're going to adapt to anchoring under the chin QUICKLY, and JUST as quickly become ADDICTED to the newfound RANGE you just gained :-O !!!
LOOKING FORWARD to hearing from you soon !!!
-Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
@@VOGTLANDOUTDOORS thanks for the reply! I'm pretty sure it's my right temple. I do 3 under with a globe and the tip of my index finger hits about an inch past the end of my eyebrow where there is a indent. I am basically looking straight down the side of the arrow shaft. You make a good point that I am sacrificing distance, but I really want to practice for deer hunting so 40 yards would be the max shot I need. Sadly my back yard only.allows me to shoot 33 yards max. I do want to try under the chin, I didn't get to yesterday because I only had about 30 mins to practice so I fell into old habits. My only worry is that drawing to under my chin would take a few inches off my draw length and lose power.
Hi Jim!
This is getting interesting...
SEVERAL THOUGHTS:
1. HOW TALL are you? Because for you to need to draw out to your TEMPLE (an inch farther than your eyebrow) 1 of 2 things must be true:
a. You are shorter than (say) 5 ft 6 in (the "standard bow hunter height world-wide); OR
b. You're unconsciously positioning your body so you're facing TOWARD your target instead of at a right angle to it, and this is SHORTENING your draw length
2. 30 years is FINE (in fact LONG-ISH) for practicing DEER HUNTING :-O
I did a survey on facebook last year, and out of HUNDREDS of avid Trad Archer Facebook group members
replying, easily 2/3 of them admitted (readily) that the LONGEST SUCCESSFUL SHOT THEY EVER TOOK
AT A DEER was 18 yards :-O
18 YARDS ! and nearly NO ONE claimed to have a SUCCESSFUL BAREBOW HUNTING SHOT BEYOND 40 YARDS !
Yes - NOT EVEN ME.
In fact, I can state truthfully that the LONGEST SUCCESSFUL SHOT I'VE EVER MADE was a "whopping" 36 yards,
and I hit the deer quartering away, entering literally his last rib in his rib cage, even though I was AIMING for his
HEART (note: which when aiming a deer QUARTERING AWAY from you, is actually only off-target by about a
measely 2 inches laterally) so it was a GREAT SHOT from 14 feet up in a tree after sitting still for 4+ hours
early one morning some 7 years ago, so I was just over 51 years old.
I DOUBT SERIOUSLY I WILL EVER MAKE ANOTHER SHOT THAT LONG IN THE OAK-FILLED and MAPLE-FILLED
WOODS OF NORTHEASTERN ILLINOIS AGAIN FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE...
So... BACK to YOU.
- CONTINUE practicing at 15 yds, 20 yds, 25 yds and 30 yds, but no further. Instead let the deer come to YOU.
And TRY the VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD, because your HEAD is still TURNED at a 45deg angle to the target (you're NOT "facing" the target like some people mis-understand), so you'll only lose a single 1 INCH of draw length.
AND when you realize that your 20 yd "Initial Gap" is 3 fingers under the arrow, WHEN you anchor your index finger UNDER your chin...
... you'll be PLEASANTLY SURPRISED to that you're now LOOKING RIGHTDOWN OVER THE TOP OF THE ARROW, which is even BETTER than looking down its SIDE !!!!
NOW imagine looking down your arrow FROM ABOVE, and PUTTING THE TIP OF YOUR ARROW RIGHT ON THE DEER'S HEART, KNOWING - absolutely KNOWING - that the arrow is going RIGHT WHERE YOU'RE AIMING IT :-O ...
Looking forward to hearing from you soon !
-Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
Hi Mark,
I have dabbled in archery for many years as a single pin sight shooter and vintage recurve bows, but now at 74, I want to work on barebow shooting. I will be following your instructions for string walking and anchoring under the chin this year. I bought a 35# Martin Jaguar for a light poundage bow for practice, and it looks like you’ve used one in several of your videos. Can you tell me how high you set your nocking point and what other limbs you have put on the Jaguar riser? I’m planning set up my own range and want to buy 20# limbs for the Jaguar if possible for my wife and grand kids to shoot. I’m in Canada and the trad archery supplies are limited… Thanks for creating the videos and sharing them.
Greetings XRayEyes and WELCOME to VOGTLAND OUTDOORS !
I LOVE GETTING comments like this !
Were you aware (I mention this in many videos) that I'm HALF-CANADIAN myself ???
Yup - mum was born in YARMOUTH and grew up in NEWCASTLE, then schooled in ST JOHN...
... then lived in CALIFORNIA in the mid-50's cuz hey - that's where EVERYONE went back then; and she met & married my American dad there, and they moved back to his native northern Minnesota where they lived happily with 4 kids on the south short of Little Detroit Lake for the next 55+ years :-) ...
BACK TO YOUR QUESTIONS...
1. I LOVE the Martin Jaguar bow, and own 2 of them :-)
2. I use the STANDARD "Martin" brand limbs, even though the Martin Jaguar RISER is "ILF compatible" this is actually BULLSHIT, so DON'T BUY ILF limbs for it !
3. It's TEDIOUS to CHANGE LIMBS in the SAME archery "session" just so your wife & kids can shoot too - it's SMARTER to simply order a CHEAP RECURVE BOW KIT for each of them on Amazon - watch the 2-part video I just uploaded where I show just how GOOD VALUE a bow is here:
www.amazon.com/dp/B08S45R6S3?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1&psc=1
NOTE: when the QUANTITY drops down low, the PRICE goes up - TEMPORARILY, so if you DON'T see a price of $89 for the entire KIT, LOOK AROUND !
HERE are some OTHER equally-good bows and/or kits:
www.amazon.com/TBOW-Takedown-Competition-Athletic-Training/dp/B09K7J4PHQ/ref=sr_1_4?crid=QKBKGSL7P0PF&keywords=recurve+bow+kits&qid=1673407261&refinements=p_36%3A23611086011&rnid=23610959011&s=sporting-goods&sprefix=recurve+bow+kits%2Csporting%2C99&sr=1-4
www.amazon.com/STACCU-58%EF%BC%82Takedown-Competition-Right-Handed-40pounds/dp/B08N6QY26V/ref=sr_1_25?crid=QKBKGSL7P0PF&keywords=recurve%2Bbow%2Bkits&qid=1673407261&refinements=p_36%3A23611086011&rnid=23610959011&s=sporting-goods&sprefix=recurve%2Bbow%2Bkits%2Csporting%2C99&sr=1-25&th=1
www.amazon.com/Happybuy-Takedown-Aluminum-Right-Hand-Competition/dp/B08R5JYKXX/ref=sr_1_28?crid=QKBKGSL7P0PF&keywords=recurve+bow+kits&qid=1673407571&refinements=p_36%3A23611086011&rnid=23610959011&s=sporting-goods&sprefix=recurve+bow+kits%2Csporting%2C99&sr=1-28
NOTE: the last one is a HECK of a buy because the SELLER displayed the bow UPSIDE DOWN in every image, so that everyone is AFRAID to buy it :-O ...
MY POINT IS THIS:
It will cost JUST AS MUCH (around $60 to $90 bucks) for you to buy another pair of LIMBS for the Martin Jaguar for your wife & kids as it would to simply buy an ENTIRE BOW KIT for them, so BUY THE KIT !
WAITING TO HEAR GOOD NEWS FROM YOU !
WHERE IN CANADA ARE YOU???
-Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
Great... Im new at barebow.. i'll try ur method.. hope its work for me... Im struggling to hit the target whn using cheek anchor...
Greetings Starlord (I remember the original comic book series from the 80's)!
GLAD you FOUND this channel !
WATCH all the NEWBIE videos, including the refresher I just posted (Sep 5th) on VOGTLAND STRINGWALKING METHOD !
Cheers,
-Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
I will try this out as a new barebow archer. Thanks!
GLAD you found this method intriguing Steve... MERRY CHRISTMAS!
Thnk u sir for sharing your knowledge,i learned too much from this 👍
G'Day Mel Bourne (I'm guessing here you're an Aussie?) !
Thank you for the nice compliment !
Cheers,
-Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
Mark and I are members of the same archery club but didn't know it until this week. We met at the club this morning so he could show me first-hand the Vogtland Shooting Method. I've been using the anchor taught in the National Training System, or KSL Shot Cycle, which is further back under the jaw than Mark's under chin anchor. It was a bit awkward for me to use his anchor since the other one is pretty heavily ingrained. I managed to get it close enough to use his finger spacing method of determining my crawl down the string.
Until now I've used a 3-finger-under tab and counted stitches to set my crawl which has worked fine. Mark's method has one distinct advantage over the stitch count. As an example, let's assume my point-on distance, the distance at which I'm on target when the tab is up against bottom of the arrow, is 50 yards. In order to shoot beyond that distance I would either have to raise my crawl, which I can't, lower my anchor, which could be inconsistent at best, or gap shoot. With Mark's method one can go split-finger to gain about 20 yds of distance. Move the middle finger on top of the arrow and get another 20 yds. There will be a need for some adjustments but the method opens some additional possibilities.
We had some laughs, shot some arrows, hit some targets (and missed a few) and had a good time. I learned a new technique and I recommend giving it a try. Some of the best barebow archers in the world anchor on the side of the face where there's a good chance the string will smack your nose on release. Under-chin puts your aiming eye right over the arrow which makes perfect sense and protects the ole' schnozzola.
I've never shot my recurve over 20 yds. Today using Mark's method I was able to put nearly all of my arrows on the target butt, once I figured out my crawl, at 30 yds. I considered that to be pretty successful given I only knew the technique for less than an hour. Next time out I'm going for 40 and am pretty confident I'll hit way more than I'll miss. Consistency in archery is all important and a consistent anchor is key. Mark's method works. Try it.
I don’t know brother, I know we’ve talked about this, but I anchor along my cheek and my site picture has the string over the arrow. Now truth told I pull my string blur way out when shooting off the shelf, but I think that maybe there is something to be said for how you can both bring the string blur in as an aiming reference and use a face anchor, by using a rest and plunger. Then you can finite tune your left and right with centershot and plunger tension. But like you’ve said. If it works, it works. 🏹✌🏼
Hi Cerca !
"Maybe there is something to be said for... using string blur as a aiming reference." ?
NOT "MAYBE" - but ABSOLUTELY.
Think about it - THIS is PRECISELY THE SECRET that OLYMPIC ARCHERS USE TO SHOOTING SO PRECISELY !
- they use an actual FRONT SIGHTING PIN for the "front" sight; but ABSOLUTELY
- they use the BOWSTRING'S LEFT EDGE (placed 2-3 inches away from their eyes) as a crisp, clear "REAR SIGHT" when aligning !
TO EXPLORE:
WATCH as many videos of Olympic archers AIMING.
I can PROMISE you that they're NOT LOOKING-down-the-ARROWSHAFT in order to align onto their targets !
Instead they're LINING UP the BOWSTRING'S LEFT EDGE with the FRONT SIGHT PIN, which gives them near PERFECT alignment OVER the arrow itself; then they use the windage adjustments (and maybe plunger) to "tune" what little left-right error gets introduced, and voila - AMAZING accuracy !
PLEASE REMEMBER: I'm NOT "INVENTING" this shooting method "FROM SCRATCH" !
What I HAVE accomplished is to simply MIMICK the 4 characteristics that the BEST SHOOTING METHODS HAVE:
1. a "mechanism" for PRECISELY SETTING the ELEVATION of the arrow, hence its RANGE;
2. a REAR and FRONT "sight" of SOMEKIND (real or virtual)
3. POSITIONING these sights so you SIGHT DOWN and PARALLEL WITH THE ARROW with ZERO "INTRODUCED ERROR";
3. a "mechanism" for producing a "SMALL-MOTION" release, whether you use a MECHANICAL mechanism or a "TECHNIQUE";
NOTHING NEW HERE, other than IDENTIFYING the EQUIVALENT characteristics on ANY bow, and APPLYING those techniques.
If MY method is accurate, it's only because COMPOUND BOW and OLYMPIC BOWS were accurate FIRST ;-)
Something to ponder,
-Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
Im thinking of going barebow and have subscribed to your informative posts tyvm. May I ask what type of arrow rest do you use plz
Greetings Darren and welcome to VOGTLAND OUTDOORS !
SHORT ANSWER:
CRAPPY CHEAP PLASTIC arrow rests just like THIS ONE:
www.amazon.com/Plastic-Material-Adjusted-Archery-Shooting/dp/B08JLMDS7Z/ref=sr_1_16?crid=1O14SN240KXGG&keywords=plastic+arrow+rest&qid=1655952221&sprefix=plastic+arrow+rest%2Caps%2C283&sr=8-16
But MOSTLY I shoot RIGHT OFF THE BARE SHELF OF MY BOWS, although sometimes I have to BUILD MY OWN ARROW SHELF out of craft "yoga block" foam :-O
WHAT'S MY POINT HERE?
SIMPLE TRUTH:
WHEN ALL IS SAID & DONE, you can win 2nd and 3rd PLACE STATE-LEVEL TOURNAMENTS WITH NOTHING MORE THAN A CHEAP $104 "Amazon" BOW and some $6-a-piece CHEAP ARROWS...
... IF you spend MORE time on learning a SUPERIOR SHOOTING METHOD, and LESS time on EXPENSIVE EQUIPMENT and INFERIOR (yes - FLAWED) SHOOTING METHODS.
NO, you WON'T (likely) take 1ST place at the STATE level, or even place at all in NATIONAL events, but I PROMISE you the guys WIN and PLACE at THAT level invest HUGE amounts of TIME and MONEY to get into the "100%" level...
... while MY shooting method and equipment choices and MINIMAL EFFORT can (and regularly DO) get ME into the "99%" level - FOR LESS THAN $200 TOTAL (bow + arrows + glove + EVERYTHING)
:-O
No I WON"T absolutely DRILL the "X" at 20m time after time after time...
... but I for a mere $200 TOTAL I WILL hit within a circle the size of BASEBALL at 20m, and there's absolutely NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT ;-)
THANK YOU FOR SUBSCRIBING - I will do my best to EARN your attention and open-minded-ness!
Cheers,
-Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
Great video just out of curiosity what stance do you take while shooting and what is that bow it looks similar to mine,me being silly ordered a 45lb it's not happening so I've a 40lb cheap bow to practice till the 30lb limbs arrive.
Welcome back Chris !
ANSWERS:
1. My Stance is as close to 90 degrees to the target as I can possible be; if you or I "face" the target - even in the slightest - your BACK MUSCLES (Trapezius) STOP holding the load, and your SHOULDER MUSCLES (Deltoids) START taking the lad - THIS IS BAD !
2. This bow my JUNXING F169 RECURVE BOW - $104 on Amazon - WHAT A GREAT BUY ! I actually like them so much I own THREE of them (35#, 40#, 45#), but since my Draw Length is 31.5 inches not 28 inches, at full draw my 45# is actually pulling about 52#
Here's a link:
amzn.to/46cN5Rk
Cheers,
-Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
As a 61 year old interested in learning archery this is fascinating information. One area that interests me is adapting a modern compound bow to Native American combat styles.
It seems like just resting the arrow shaft on the long shelf could be problematic but so is something like the typical twin finger type rest. Perhaps a simple horizontal pin with some sort of sleeve to keep it from lying directly against the riser. Then there is the question of whether something that would work with plastic vanes can be devised or whether natural feather fletch is required.
Would appreciate your thoughts on these matters.
Greetings Mk and welcome to VOGTLAND OUTDOORS !
You & I are in COMPLETE AGREEMENT - the LONG SHELF of a typical compound bow riser WON'T WORK AT ALL like a RECURVE bow's arrow shelf - DO NOT USE IT !!!
Here is what MARK uses on HIS Browning Ambush 80 (65#) compound bow:
www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07SKFGF7Q/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
They've BEEN working FINE for nearly 15 YEARS, so I see no need to try anything else.
Cheers,
-Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
This is all fine and dandy but how do you then explain Byron Ferguson and Howard Hill's technic? Both were arguably 2 of the great shooters of all time and both used a cheek anchor. Just because you have an opinion does not mean it is the absolute as you suggest. Interestingly enough, you didn't show any subsequent results of your shots.
Yeah... this guy is a little preachy. Found what works for him and decided to tell everyone under the son that all other methods are worse, and doesn't concede any pros to alternate methods. Odd too that this is seemingly meant for beginners, but assumes a fair amount of knowledge on their part and that they can or should be shooting at long distances.
I will try this. Thanks!
Did it work?
@@VOGTLANDOUTDOORS yes! Thanks very much
I too got tyerd of clipping my nose and will give your 5 step method a try. Would it be reasonable a 3.25 finger craw for 18m(20yards) indoor shooting?
Greetings Roberto !
HA HA HA HA HAH !
It's BAFFLING that there are WORLD-CLASS ATHLETES out there PROMOTING a shooting technique which is GUARANTEED TO CAUSE BODILY DAMAGE as being the "PREFERRED" and "PROFESSIONAL" method !!!
It would be like MICHAEL JORDAN leaping from the top of the key, slamming the ball through the hoop...
... and LANDING ON HIS KNEES INSTEAD OF HIS FEET...
... and then watching MYRIAD kids all MINDLESSLY leaping, dunking and landing on THEIR knees...
... all because THAT'S HOW MICHAEL DOES IT.
It would be like JT REALMUTO (top MLB CATCHER this year) CATCHING a FASTBALL...
... WITH HIS FACE..
... and then watching MILLIONS of middle school kids all MINDLESSLY GETTING THEIR OWN TEETH KNOCKED OUT...
... all because THAT'S HOW JT DOES DOES.
Anyone who READS the above would think I was UTTERLY RIDICULOUS to make these kinds of comparisons, but that's PRECISELY WHAT IT HAPPENING IN PROFESSIONAL BAREBOW ARCHERY RIGHT NOW.
=============
To answer your QUESTION about what GAP (I NEVER understood why EVERYONE calls it STRING WALKING, but so many people call the GAP a "CRAWL" - that too is baffling) - IT DEPENDS ON:
- YOUR BOW'S DRAW WEIGHT; and
- THE WEIGHT of your ARROW;
I'm betting you KNEW this, but simply FORGOT to mention your bow's Draw Weight.
Let's ASSUME that for indoor archery you're using:
- a BOW with a Draw Weight of around 35#
@@VOGTLANDOUTDOORS Hello, Tried it today. After 2 hrs found that a 3 1/4 fingers is the craw(gap) that works for me. 69" bow(24" riser+long limbs, DL= 28" under chin, DW= 22# . at age 63yrs young my arms start shaking past that DW. I am happy to know that with this under the chin BB method I can now go for outdoor WA 50m. I practice at 20m 40cm target which is the equivalent of 122cm @ 50m. Of course I'll have to then practice for the wind factor and get skinny arrows. My fat indoor Warrior carbon arrows drop sharply past 27m. Thank you Mark.
Greetings again Roberto !
I predict... that if you start shooting a few times a week, you're going to get noticeably stronger in your BACK, and you'll find yourself WANTING to draw something a bit stronger than 22# - likely you'll find yourself LIKING 35# even :-) ...
Then... at 35# ... you'll be able to reach 50m EASILY and CONFIDENTLY !
The INTERESTING thing about draw weights is this:
MANY people think that the LOWER the Draw Weight, the MORE "forgiving" the bow is about a poor-quality release with your fingers... but PRECISELY the OPPOSITE is true :-O
The LOWER the Draw Weight the LESS forgiving the bow is about how well you RELEASE :-O
The HIGHER the Draw Weight the MORE forgiving the bow is about your release - in fact above 35# the bow actually PULLS the string STRAIGHT OUT of your fingers, making the string's motion WAY CLEANER than at (say) 22# of Draw Weight :-O ...
MESSAGE:
There are LOTS of reasons to PRACTICE until you can INCREASE your Draw Weight up to 35# :-)
MEANWHILE, your 22# bow will shoot arrows JUST FINE all the way out to 50m - I did JUST THIS with my daughter's 22# bow back this spring !!
WATCH THIS VIDEO !!!
th-cam.com/video/S895VNou-Hk/w-d-xo.html
THIS video will MAKE YOUR ENTIRE DAY !!!!
THEN WATCH THIS PLAYLIST !
th-cam.com/video/H19PUV7j7Zs/w-d-xo.html
Very Kind Regards,
-Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
@@VOGTLANDOUTDOORS Thank you for the quick replay. I actually practice 36 arrow rounds(6x6) 6-8 times a week. True I noticed yesterday at the club that all the young people where shooting +30# bows and the arrows would not diviate like mine @ 22#. all this was at 20m. Going to bed, I just looked at the clock and it's 3am!!!!
I discover your technique
I shoot in bare-bow with a recurve bow ( string-walking) and traditional hunting bow ( 3 fingers)
in my opinion, the main difficulty is to maintain the back tension by practicing the anchorage at the corner of the mouth.
indeed this position requires a lot of work and during a course can cause bad shots due to a bad anchoring (creeping) or a bad release, then difficulty in aiming.
I will try your method in 3 fingers grip.
I think I'll have to change my nock height ?
I suscribe to your channel
Greetings again Jonard,
The BEST advice I can give you is this: LEARN to anchor UNDER YOUR CHIN - "Olympic Recurve" style.
The GAIN in RANGE you get is AMAZING ! I'm continually ASTOUNDING my fellow archers who use 50# and 60# recurve bows, yet still CAN'T reach 90m because they're anchoring at-their-CHEEK; instead I'M shooting a 35# recurve (note: I'm 183cm with an 81 cm Draw Length, so I pull that recurve to 45#) all the way out to 90m EFFORTLESSLY.
ALSO, achoring UNDER your chin enables you to sight accurately by looking directly past the bowstring, perfectly over the top of the arrow, and place the arrow tip directly ON your target. The result is an EXTREMELY ACCURATE shot, with NO left-right error introduced like you'd suffer when anchoring at your cheek.
As for nocking point - KEEP it where you NORMALLY do for now, and tell me what your experience is!
Cheers,
-Mark
Under the chin good for longer distances 40+ anything under that especially for NEWBIES shooting 10-30 yard cheek is perfect anchor. If you can anchor at your cheek you can anchor under your chin. Anchoring is fluid and you should be able to change and adjust to your distances.
I’ve been really struggling with my anchor point. Tried the cheek & corner of mouth, but like you said you have to compensate laterally (windage) when aiming. Very inconsistent and uncomfortable.
I want to try the chin anchor point, but my bow is not centre shot. My bow is +1/8”.
Will I have to compensate on the windage still due to the offset arrow & string alignment?
Cheers!
Greetings Gordie and welcome to VOGTLAND OUTDOORS !
TELL ME about your BOW:
- Make & Model?
- Draw Weight?
- Modifications?
- Does your bow have ANY sort of arrow shelf (center cut) at ALL, or is it like an English Longbow?
Awaiting your reply,
-Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
My bow specs:
60” Bodnik Quick Stick hybrid longbow
40# @ 28”
Shooting off the shelf (stock fur strip & strike plate)
Greetings again Gordie !
I looked up your bow and found it at 3RiversArchery:
www.3riversarchery.com/quick-stick-longbow.html
GORGEOUS BOW, and I'll bet it's QUIET !!!
This bow DOES have an arrow shelf - one that looks damn-close to CENTER-CUT - good enough to USE with VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD :-)
ASSUMING that YOU pull it to exactly 28 inches, hence 40#, here's what I'd suggest you trying the following settings as a starting point for using the VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD and the VOGTLAND STRINGWALKING METHOD:
ARROW:
FULL-LENGTH (32 inches typical)
600 SPINE
100gr field point (and later 100gr rigid broadhead)
ANCHOR POINT:
Right under your CHIN, anchored FIRMLY - see this video:
th-cam.com/video/RaYIP56qV28/w-d-xo.html
STRINGWALKING GAPS:
20m INITIAL GAP: start with 3 fingers
10m INTERVAL GAP: start with 1/2 finger
This should give you the following gaps for some common ranges:
10m: 3 fingers + 1/2 fingers = 3 1/2 fingers
20m: 3 fingers + 0 fingers = 3 fingers
30m: 3 fingers - 1/2 fingers = 2 1/2 fingers
40m: 3 fingers - 1/2 fingers - 1/2 fingers = 2 fingers
START HERE, and come back and tell me what (if any!) adjustments you found yourself making.
ALSO TO TRY:
IF you find that the +1/8 off-of-centre-cut IS influencing your groupings (eg consistently grouping LEFT?), then here's an EXPERIENCE to try: CANT your bow about 15 degrees :-O
This SHOULDN'T affect your GAPS hardly at all, but it MAY "simulate" a FULLY center-cut rest :-O ...
(note: thank the amazing & incomparable GARY CHYNNE for this advice!)
th-cam.com/channels/ufXwwtJmZWDzjdHXeWYO0w.html
GOOD LUCK & HAVE FUN !!
-Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
Hey Mark. Right when the video started I thought the range looked just like Kishwaukee then I realized it was! I was shooting there this morning. I'm working pretty seriously on learning barebow and string walking. My anchor is more 'under jaw' which allows the string to touch the tip of my nose. It adds a second triangle to yours with the three points being grip, under jaw and tip of nose. I'm shooting mostly indoors where there's a wall. I really don't want to lose any arrows ;). Ignore the name Herb, it's just a screen name. Bottom line, you gave some great advice. Anything that's bone-on-bone is more stable than fingers on a squishy cheek. I'll be watching for you at Kish.
Greetings Herb !
If you'd like to learn this VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD 1-on-1, I can & will MEET you at Kishwaukee, either this coming FRIDAY morning (I have Fridays off rest of year because I've accrued too much PTO time and not been able to take proper vacations), OR SATURDAY morning - take your pick !
THAT IS, I CAN/WILL be shooting at Kishwaukee on EITHER (but not both) of these dates:
Friday September 24th, say 800a to 1000a; OR
Saturday September 25th, say 800a to 1000a again
After that I'm off to LOWDEN-MILLER State Forest, to bring my machete and hack through the nettles and thornbushes to where I left my hunting stand last November out 500 yrds northwest of Parking Lot #2 :-) ...
REPLY ME HERE ASAP !!!
I can SHOW you the method in 10 SECONDS
I can TEACH you the method in 30 SECONDS
After 5 minutes you'll be aiming your barebow at the practice range's 10m, 20m, 30m, 40m and maybe even the 50m targets ;-) (not kidding)
Cheers,
-Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
@@VOGTLANDOUTDOORS I like to come out on Friday mornings when less crowded. It'll be interesting to see how your method compares to what I'm currently doing. And Lowden-Miller is my turkey woods. We already have a lot in common. Kish Friday at 8.
Hi Herb !
KISH. Friday morning. 800a. Be there - aloha.
I'LL be the guy in the burgundy 4-door Jeep Wrangler unlimited with the yellow standup paddleboard strapped to the top; kind of hard-to-MISS ;-) ...
YOU'LL be __________________________?
-Mark
@@VOGTLANDOUTDOORS Red Equinox with a portable, 4-lane archery range stuffed in the back. I doubt that there will be enough other vehicles present to confuse either one of us.
Happy Friday Junior (Thursday) Herb,
Agreed - at 800a on a FRIDAY MORNING, we'll likely be the ONLY 2 guys out there...
See you Friday morning !
-Mark
Does your method affect the FPS of the arrow?
Greetings Tragedy & welcome to VOGTLAND OUTDOORS !
SHORT ANSWER:
No - why would it?
The VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD is merely the innovative combining of 2 already-global, already-proven shooting methods:
1. Olympic Recurve Archery; and
2. String Walking.
I have videos which prove that even anchoring under-your-chin compared to along-your-cheek is negligible; if you wish me to be precise, it's 31 1/2 inches compared to 31 3/4 inches - a difference of 1/4 inch over 31 inches (less than 1%).
In terms of actual change in Draw-Weight-at-Full-Draw it's 50# compared to 50.25#
In terms of Arrow Launch Speed it's also negligible: 170 fps compared to 171 fps.
You actually can influence your arrows a lot MORE simply by releasing badly or by letting your full draw collapse (like when you're tired) from 31 1/2 inches to 30 inches or less !
No - The VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD only ENHANCES your shot by providing the following:
- PRECISE elevation range to even +/- 1m is possible;
- VIRTUALLY-ZERO left-to-right error introduced (far MORE error is introduced by anchoring AT-the-CHEEK!), and at ALL DISTANCES from 5m to 105m :-O
- MORE CONSISTENT GROUPINGS because by anchoring your 2nd knuckle UNDER your chin you now have a RIGID, POWERFUL "TRIANGLE" holding your shot at full draw (your fore arm, your upper arm and your collarbone), and the last digits of your 3 drawing fingers are FREE to flex & release EVEN WHILE YOUR ARM IS STILL FIRMLY ANCHORED UNDER YOUR CHIN :-O
Here's a video I made on the (negligible) difference in Draw Length when anchoring under-your-chin:
th-cam.com/video/OZse_yvbKQc/w-d-xo.html
Cheers,
- Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
The only problem I found anchoring under the chin is at short distances your aiming point is not on the target but on the ground in front of the target. It is difficult to be consistent as you have no reference point.
Greetings Peter !
Thanks for posting a comment...
... but I pleased to report that I CAN'T agree with you :-O !
WHAT DO I MEAN BY THAT?
Simple!
Anchoring under your chin DOESN'T at all prevent you from aiming by placing your Aiming Point - in my case the ARROW TIP ITSELF - directly in the DEAD-CENTER of your target :-O
It's simply a question of HOW FAR you're willing to push the STRING WALKING that is required to elevate the arrow DOWN far enough for those shorter distances !
LET ME EXPLAIN IT THIS WAY...
The VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD also incorporates the VOGTLAND STRINGWALKING METHOD.
The VOGTLAND STRING WALKING METHOD uses 2 KEY NUMBERS:
KEY NUMBER 1:
Your "20m Gap" - the gap (measured in "fingers") from nocking point to drawing point for being point-on for 20m; AND
KEY NUMBER 2:
Your "10m Interval Gap" - the CHANGE in gap (also measured in fractions of a finger) which results in a 10m change in DISTANCE;
In my videos you've likely SEEN me REDUCE my gap for distances LONGER than 20m, but there's absolutely NOTHING stopping me from INCREASING the my gap for distances SHORTER than 20m :-O
I DO THIS ALL THE TIME, even down to 5m !!!
WHAT does this look like?
SUPER EASY:
For a 45# DRAW WEIGHT BOW, and "MATCHING" ARROWS, you'll almost-certainly have the following 2 numbers:
20m Gap: 3 fingers BELOW the arrow; and
10m Interval Gap: 1/2 finger
THAT SAID, HERE ARE THE GAPS FOR SHOOTING ALL THE WAY FROM 5m to 110m:
5m 4 fingers (MAKE SURE you're NOT using your PINKY as a "finger" - it's TOO SLENDER)
10m 3 1/2 fingers
20m: 3 fingers
30m 2 1/2 fingers
40m 2 fingers
50m 1 1/2 fingers
60m 1 fingers
70m 1/2 fingers
80m 0 FINGERS - your Index finger is TOUCHING the bottom of your ARROW !
90m 2 fingers ABOVE THE ARROW
100m 2 1/2 fingers ABOVE THE ARROW (yes, there IS a weird half-finger gap between your fingers)
110m 3 fingers ABOVE THE ARROW
120m 4 FINGERS ABOVE THE ARROW
IF you need to use a BOW & ARROW to hit something CLOSER than 5m, well...
... you need more help than the VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD can provide ;-)
(just reach out and STAB your target with your arrow - you're THAT CLOSE !)
I'm CURIOUS...
WHAT convinced you (wrongly) that you COULDN'T string walk 4 and 5 fingers BELOW the arrow nock for truly SHORT distances?
YES - you'll create an IMBALANCE in your bow limbs, but if you DO THE MATH you'll see that even on a "typical" 66 inch recurve bow you've created an imbalance of only about 4 fingers = 2 INCHES across 33, or 6% difference between the bow limbs - I PROMISE YOU... the limbs WILL be able to HANDLE this imbalance, as the entire bow was built ASYMMETRICALLY in the first place ;-)
GIVE IT A TRY - you'll be pleasantly surprised !
And then come back and TELL us how all about it!
LOOKING FORWARD to HEARING FROM YOU !
-Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
PETER !!!!
I MADE THIS VIDEO JUST FOR YOU - I hope you find it USEFUL and ENCOURAGING !!
studio.th-cam.com/users/videoD6Nsi5Cl5rY/edit
Cheers,
-Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
@@VOGTLANDOUTDOORS Thank you for the video. It was informative and I found it useful. As a Olympic style recurve shooter I prefer to anchor under the chin and will now experiment with string walking.
@@VOGTLANDOUTDOORS I too got tiered of clipping my nose and will give your 5 step method a try. Would it be reasonable a 3.25 finger craw for 18m(20yards) indoor shooting?
The lower the anchor, the higher the arrow will hit. Simple physics says you'll have to have to crawl/walk WAY DOWN for shorter ( = normal hunting ) distances. For long target distances, OK. The mind is pretty flexible, especially when it comes to instinctive shooting, so it may be possible to anchor so low and hit your target instinctively. But I don't know - I've never tried it.
Great advice. I can only agree 100%. When I anchor on the chin, the string picture is somewhere 20 cm right of the riser, totally uncontrollable and not reproducible. But when anchoring under the chin, the string is always on the middle of the riser. I am originally a recurve olympic shooter and try to go to barebow now. I had very big difficulties with other anchoring approaches... thanks a lot for that video. Great stuff !!!
Greetings Yannik !
GLAD You enjoyed the video !
Please watch the OTHERS !
ASIDE: When you posted, I THINK you made an important typographical error:
- you SAID "when I anchor on the chin, the string picture is somewhere 20cm right of the riser"
- I THINK you meant "when I anchor ON THE CHEEK, the string picture is somewhere 20cm right of the riser"
Let me know if I understood you, and if my correction made sense!
Please watch the following playlist to learn more:
th-cam.com/play/PLj4BxB96vTdeQA-4ZmELV5a1IteQhPFfc.html
TELL ME WHERE YOU'RE FROM !!!!!
Cheers,
Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
Sorry to say this, but it is not. You pull the arrow and the string straight to your eye so how on earth the "string picture" can be "somewhere 20 cm of the riser" is beyond me. If it is so "uncontrollable and not reproducible" why every single barebow (as a matter of fact traditional) archer is using this? You are just so used to olympic recurve so much that Your body developed this 20cm of "kink". It is You not the anchor ...
You may have just fixed my inconsistency issue. I wondered why the 'under the chin' method was used by the olympic shooters. Giving it a try. Thanks. (note: after a year, under chin still works great)
Good stuff
Doesn't the distance change whenever you have a Broadhead on the end of it
Hi Mark. Greetings and as they say "long time no hear". A little update about me. I had participated in my first 3D competition 2 months ago and I used your aiming method faithfully during the entire course. I was a bit nervous because I was competing against well known barebow archers from my state who, would you believe it were in my group. To make things worst, they were using their thousand dollars bows with plunger buttons whereas I was using a chinese bow which cost roughly about 100 dollars. The level of my confidence was so low that I had decided to use fiberglass arrows instead of my normal carbon arrows because I was very sure that I will lose many arrows that day. It was in fact my first time shooting in the woods and I'm not going to risk losing my more expensive carbon arrows. The fibreglass arrows only cost about 1 dollar each and I won't lose any sleep if they go missing. Any way, to make long story short, I did quite well in that competition. I only lost 2 arrows and I gave some of the more experienced archers quite a scare towards the end. The aiming method was somewhat different and I was shooting fibreglass arrows against their Easton arrows. What I'm trying to say is that your vogtland method has made me into a better archer and I believe with more practice perhaps I can do even better. I mean who knows what the future holds for us. Anyway cheers man. Keep the videos coming. What might not work for some might work wonders for others.
Greetings Ajim...
MUSIC TO MY EARS !!!!!!!!!!!
Arguably the GREATEST 2 CHALLENGES in all 3D SHOOTS ARE THESE:
1. NERVES - I place this FIRST for one simple reason:
If you're NERVOUS and you PULL/PUSH/JERK your release, you can literally
MISS THE TARGET ENTIRELY
2. DISTANCE MEASURING - you need to judge distances with EXTREME ACCURACY;
Many 3D targets are QUITE SMALL - the size of a RACCOON or SKUNK (inches wide)
For LIGHT-DRAWWEIGHT bows (20# to 35#) the arrow flight is VERY parabolic, so EVERYTHING must be very very PRECISE, with distances measured to +/- 1m of accuracy resulting in an arrow rise/drop on the target +/- 2 inches :-(
For MEDIUM-DRAWWEIGHT bows (35# to 55#) the arrow flight starts to FLATTEN a bit, so you can afford to be LESS precise in distance measuring, perhaps +/- 2m of accuracy resulting in an arrow rise/drop on the target of +/- 2 inches :-)
For HEAVY-DRAWWEIGHT bows (55# to 70#) the arrow flight gets VERY FLAT, so you can afford to be even LESS precise in distance measuring, perhaps +/- 4m of accuracy resulting in an arrow rise/drop on the target of +/- 2 inches :-O
NOTE: The above explanation starts to shed light on just WHY all the COMPOUND BOW archers are SO BLOODY ACCURATE; the HIGHER DRAWWEIGHTS (60# to 70# is common) and resulting FASTER ARROW SPEEDS (speeds of 290 ft/s up to 330 ft/s and beyond!) result in FLATTER ARROW TRAJECTORIES they provide means you can be quite quite IMPRECISE with your DISTANCE MEASURING, and you'll STILL get a GREAT SHOT :O
It also means that the SAME "elevation" is good for a WIDE RANGE of distances :-O
What I mean by this is a single pin (say the 20m pin) on a 70# compound bow will STILL hit the "yellow" (bullseye) at distances of 15m out to 25m; that's why compound bow sights often uses only 3 pins (4 pings at most) to cover all ranges from 10m out to 40m;
- the 10m pin "covers" 5m to 15m
- the 20m pin "covers" 15m to 25m
- the 30m pin "covers" 25m to 35m and
- the 40m pin ""covers" 35m to 45m
:-O
BACK TO THE OFFICIAL TOPIC - you COMPETING :-) ...
I'M SUPER PROUD OF YOU !
IDEAS TO TRY (stuff that works for ME)
1. USE BRIGHT-COLORED TRAD-CARBON ARROWS -they're EASY to find !
MY favorite arrows (I've ordered 1 sets of 12 each over the past 4 years):
www.amazon.com/Archery-Carbon-Arrows-Recurve-Feather/dp/B01MTLOT7X?ref_=ast_sto_dp&th=1&psc=1
2. DON'T CHANGE ARROWS JUST BEFORE COMPETITION - EVER
Habits are funny; at some point you'll use the gap from your (lighter) CARBON arrows on your FIBERGLASS arrows... and the arrow will land short and in the dirt, and you'll feel silly ;-)
3. WHEN you get a distance you're UNFAMILIAR shooting, BACK-UP a step or two until you're at a distance you ARE familiar shooting :-O
EXAMPLE: You feel SUPREMELY confident with your 20m gap, like it's your GO-TO shot, but you come upon a 3D target that is 18m away - WHAT DO YOU DO?
GOOD: you COULD try to INCREASE your gap by that teeny-weeny little bit (maybe 1/8 finger); OR
BETTER: you simply TAKE 2 STEPS BACKWARD (it's LEGAL) and now you're at 20m - YOUR GO-TO SHOT. :-O
I SEE this very strategy regularly when I'm out shooting ARCHERY GOLF with some of my BLACKWELL TRADTIONAL ARCHERY GROUP (facebook.com). I'll see my archery buddy Mark Reinhardt deliberately shoot his next-to-last shot SHORTER than he really needs to, all so his LAST shot is a distance he's SUPREMELY GOOD at (say 15m); then he steps up to his last shot at 15m and utterly PLUGS the foam soccer ball target :-)
THAT'S IT - you're doing GREAT !!!!!
Ajim - REMIND me where you LIVE and where you SHOOT and what bow (draw weight) you shoot - I'm curious. And if you're shooting an ASIAN bow - are you using a THUMB RING release?
Did you know the VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD can work WELL with THUMB RINGS TOO???
:-O
Cheers,
-Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
Hello, I have had a look at the chin achor and the problem that I see with it is a major one. That is written in all of the archery textbooks. This is, that the draw to the chin is essentially out of allignment.
You don't have the atonimical advantage of bone stacking nor do you have the leverage effect. Hence an archer using the chin method will potentially get tired a lot more quicker than the archer who predominantly uses the "draw to allignment technique".
Although the draw to allignment technique appears to hang in space, it is not. Your wrist, elbow are in "allignment" hence they are not under muscle stress. They are in bone stacking allignment. No triangles, just straight lines.
Site picture, that is a whole different story.
Hi Nenad !
"Reasonable people can DISAGREE on this topic" ...
I'M a REASONABLE person :-) ...
YOU'RE a REASONABLE person :-) ...
YOU only want to see the (single) perceived "strength" of cheek-anchoring, having (I'm guessing here) NOT actually tried both methods - at least not for any "decisive" length of time.
I'VE CHALLENGED myself to look at the strengths and weaknesses of BOTH methods, and I've actually USED BOTH METHODS, each one for literally YEARS at a time...
... and I've come to the "epiphanies" that I've decided to start SHARING with everyone :-)
FRIENDLY CHALLENGE:
YOU spend the ENTIRE SUMMER shooting ONLY this one way:
- CHIN-anchoring;
- SIGHTING down the left-edge of string;
- PUTTING tip of arrow actually ON-BULLSEYE;
- STRINGWALKING for arrow elevation
- SHOOTING at ranges from 5m to 100m
Then come back and (candidly) report your findings of that approach vs:
- what you think YOU (accomplished, experienced archer) can achieve with BOTH shooting methods; AND
- what you think you can TEACH A NOVICE in less than 5 minutes.
I'LL bet that I CAN teach a near-NOVICE archer to shoot AS ACCURATELY as YOU at all distances from 5m to (say) 50m... and I can teach that in less than 5 minutes.
THIS is my epiphany - that ACCURATE shooting BAREBOW CAN be as accurate as COMPOUND archery - IF you adopt the shooting method which REPLICATES the strengths of Compound bows :-O ...
Or you can simply continue using cheek-anchoring... and then you and I both KNOW you'll be LIMITED to only "aiming DIRECTLY" at targets out to about 40m at BEST, and for anything LONGER than that you'll be aiming at a POINT-in-SPACE instead of a point-on-the-TARGET :-O
Let us know what you decide - it'll make a VERY INTERESTING test-case for this summer !
Cheers - Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
FRIENDLY CHALLENGE:
- I'VE tried "the alignment method" for DECADES...
... but all it took was 5 MINUTES of shooting with MY technique, and I became
CONVINCED the "alignment" might be legitimate, but it DIDN'T mean the
shooting method itself was flawless :-|
- I'll ask YOU to try THIS approach for an afternoon, realize there ARE MULTIPLE methods for arriving at a SOLID "frame" when you're anchored, as well as MULTIPLE ways of achieving the "alignment" you're describing - only the method I teach has the added ADVANTAGES of INCREASED RANGE, a "smaller" (hence more accurate) release, as well as ALIGNMENT/SIGHTING ACCURACY, because you're now EFFORTLESSLY aiming directly above the arrow, with NO worries that the bowstring can EVER catch your nose and tear your skin off; AND you get to use the ARROWTIP as your front sight.
Cut ! That's a wrap
Glad you liked it (I think?) :-) ...
-Mark
@@VOGTLANDOUTDOORS was just joking about the end. I think you said cut.
adfasd,
I DID "get" it.
In fact I was PLEASED you watched until the END ;-)
Cheers!
-Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
@@VOGTLANDOUTDOORS heck yeah I did, it was a great video!! Thanks for all the info!
@@VOGTLANDOUTDOORS personally I'm still trying to dial in my anchor. I do gap shooting and usually use my jaw line but maybe this isn't low enough... also still dialing in my release. Have some plucking issues
I'll try your method out, I currently anchor to the corner of my mouth.
Hi Messor !
ALL I'm asking you to do is make a TINY RE-POSITIONING of your anchor...
... and reap all the BENEFITS of this technique.
I DIDN'T INVENT THIS ANCHORING METHOD !!!
It's been around as long as there as Archery has been in the Olympics (AD 1900, so 120 YEARS AGO) ...
I DIDN'T INVENT STRINGWALKING either :-)
I DIDN'T INVENT the idea of sighting down the left-edge of the bowstring as a "virtual rear peep"...
I DIDN'T INVENT the idea of actually using the ARROWHEAD as a "virtual front peep"...
I DID (it appears) "INVENT"...
USING ALL OF THESE TECHNIQUES INTO A SINGLE SHOOTING METHOD :-O !!!
BELIEVE ME - I EXHAUSTIVELY researched TH-cam, the INTERNET and even Chicago Public Library and AMAZON (books) AND numerous uber-popular ARCHERY FORUMS looking for ANYONE who could claim they've been USING and TEACHING this "unified" shooting method BEFORE ME... and I HAVEN'T FOUND A SINGLE PERSON :-O
NO ONE was MORE surprised than I was when I realized I had devised what might genuinely arguably be a NEW SHOOTING METHOD :-O
IMAGINE if YOU had gradually, methodically come upon this method... WHAT would YOU do ?
- It can make even a BEGINNER incredibly confident AND ACCURATE;
- it works from 5m out to 100m;
- it works as well with a $50 bow as with a $1,000 bow;
- it can be taught in 5 MINUTES
- it could make THOUSANDS (and more) would-be archers FALL IN LOVE WITH ARCHERY
WOULD you KEEP IT TO YOURSELF?
Me?
I chose to start SHARING it, even if I get a few nay-sayers or skeptics :-)
Let me know how it initially works for you, and if you have any questions - I'll watch for posts !
-Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
Haven’t tried this method but I would imagine you would lose draw length and additional fps on the arrow due to reduced tension
Usually ppl that anchor on the side of chin .We cant the bow , it opens the sight and your arrow aligns with the target.
Under the chin looks very interesting but you really have to be aiming🤔 no instictive shoots no birds nor rabbit hunting?
I would like to see how to shoot a moving target under the chin?
Greetings Louis !
You ask GREAT questions !
You may be surprised that I shoot a MOVING target VERY MUCH like you do - INSTINCTIVELY :-O
LET'S TAKE A STEP BACK HERE AND THINK FOR A MOMENT ABOUT SHOOTING METHODS...
REALITY:
THERE IS NO SINGLE SHOOTING METHOD WHICH IS "IDEAL" FOR ALL SHOOTING SITUATIONS. PERIOD.
:-O
WHY do I say this?
Simple.
- There are shooting situations where targets are CLOSE and MOVING;
Time for AIMING ISN'T a luxury
ACCURACY is LESS important than TRACKING
- There are shooting situations where targets are FAR and STATIONARY;
There IS time for AIMING
ACCURACY IS important
MARK'S SHOOTING PHILOSOPHY is THIS:
- If you HAVE time to AIM, then USE a SHOOTING METHOD which OPTIMIZES your ACCURACY;
- If you DON'T have time to AIM then USE a SHOOTING METHOD which OPTIMIZES your TRACKING;
MARK'S big ISSUE with using INSTINCTIVE AIMING METHODS for STATIONARY TARGETS is that this is a MIS-MATCH of shooting METHOD to shooting SITUATION
- TIME is on your SIDE;
- ACCURACY at a WIDE RANGE of distances IS IMPORTANT
- INSTINCTIVE AIMING METHODS in fact AREN'T the BEST choice here - PERIOD !
(I don't care WHAT kind of a champion instinctive archer you are, you're ONLY going to be good at a FEW distances)
- a shooting method which EMPOWERS you to CAREFULLY AIM for that distance and RELEASE just as carefully is a BETTER "match" for this shooting situation, so MARK promotes the VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD here :-)
WHAT about YOUR shooting situation? WHAT about a MOVING TARGET at (say) a CLOSE distance?
Me?
We SHOOT at stuff like this ALL THE TIME when hunting.
I've hit EVERY DEER I'VE EVER SHOT AT IN THE PAST 20 YEARS - here's how:
- I would NEVER shoot at a moving target beyond 20m
- I would have my gap set to 3 fingers (20 m), and be fully-drawn, looking at the (moving) target down my arrow
- I would TRACKING IN FRONT OF THE TARGET, JUST like you do with a SHOTGUN "leading" a clay pigeon
- THERE IS AN "INSTINCTIVE" ASPECT TO THIS ADDITION TO MY SHOOTING METHOD
- It takes PRACTICE to learn HOW MUCH "lead" you need for a given DISTANCE and SPEED of the target
- That said, I DESPISE terming this "instinctive" shooting, because "instinctive" has a DIFFERENT DEFINITION !
- "INSTINCTS" are sophisticated abilities you're BORN WITH
- What we SHOULD be calling this time of shooting is "INTUITIVE"
- INTUITION is "perceptions & abilities which can be LEARNED through repeated EXPERIENCE"
SO HERE WE ARE - FINALLY having an INTELLIGENT discussion about ARCHERY
- there are situations where "INTUITIVE AIMING" is the PREFERRED method;
- there are situations where "PRECISION AIMING" is the PREFERRED method; and
- there are situations where a COMBINATION of INTUITIVE AND PRECISION AIMING may be MOST USEFUL
:-)
For TARGET ARCHERY, The VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD represents a powerful PRECISION AIMING method;
For HUNTING MOVING TARGETS, INTUITIVE SHOOTING METHODS work EQUALLY well
- My VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD works surprisingly well for ME and increasingly many others; BUT
- I've seen my shooting buddies like Mark Reinhardt, Dan McGhee, Hubert, Jim and Danny shoot INTUITIVELY with utterly ASTOUNDING accuracy even at distances of 20m, 30m, and even 40m (on golf courses no less) :-O
Great Topic - would welcome your thoughts !
-Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
Makes so much sens
And yes Sir it is very interesting and informative
I will certainly try and pratice this style
It sure would be a plus to be always point on arrow🏹
Archers paradox?
Hi Mat !
"Archers Paradox" ?
It's difficult to understand your question, but IF you're asking "DOES 'archer's paradox' come into play when employing the VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD?"
Answer: SOMETIMES. Let me clarify:
- when shooting a bow with a CENTERCUT ARROW SHELF or ARROW REST, Archer's Paradox is MINIMAL, and can basically be ignored. I PROVE this over & over & over by shooting 5 out of 6 arrows landing at 90m when shooting BAREBOW from nothing but a bow with a CENTERCUT ARROW SHELF, NO plunger, and AIMING POINT-ON the center of the target using a 58# recurve bow :-)
- when shooting a bow WITHOUT any centercut arrow shelf, Archer's Paradox is PRONOUNCED, but can be MITIGATED by CANTING the BOW 45 degrees. See the marvelous videos by GARY CHYNNE for the RIGHT way to CANT a bow, then come back and use VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD and VOGTLAND STRINGWALKING METHOD with your CANTED bow - you'll get a kick out of this !
Cheers,
-Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
@@VOGTLANDOUTDOORS thanks for the lengthy reply; will check out the info. I am shooting a bow that is not centre cut. In short: I probably should get one.
A Compound barebow that is :-)
Darren,
YOU GOT IT - you absolutely CAN shoot a COMPOUND BOW BAREBOW, using my VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD and VOGTLAND STRINGWALKING METHOD !
I do it A LOT, and on ALL of my compound bows:
- 65# Browning Ambush compound hunting bow (circa 1990)
- 40# Genesis X compound bow - I LOVE SHOOTING this bow at 90m REGULARLY
I've STRIPPED EVERYTHING UNNECESSARY OFF OF MY COMPOUND BOWS.
The ONLY thing remaining on them is the ARROW REST.
NO FRONT SIGHTS
NO REAR "PEEP" SIGHT
NO RELEASE
WATCH my OTHER videos where I shoot compound bows BAREBOW:
th-cam.com/video/-uoSVA11wt8/w-d-xo.html
Cheers!
-Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
I was coming into barebow from Target Recurve. I tried the cheek/lip anchor. It was ok but I hated the way the string clipped my face. Sometimes I find my fingers scraping my lips and cheek. I tried going back to what I am used to: the chin anchor. I eliminated almost 95% of the horizontal spread of my groupings, all that's left is to tighten my vertical groupings.
The catch? I had to stringwalk more than a finger tab's worth. Most of my shots were hitting too high.
Greetings Zen Zen !
If you're coming into barebow from Olympic Recurve shooting, then my (VOGTLAND) Shooting Method is going to suit you just fine, because it ALSO uses anchor-under-the-chin right out of the Olympic Recurve Shooting "manual" ;-) ...
ADVICE:
DON'T worry about having to stringwalk a gap of MORE than 4 "fingers" for your really short distances (like 10m).
I regularly use the VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD to stringwalk even 5 full fingers (I go down 3 fingers, then 2 more, so I DON'T use my pinky finger because it's NOT the same width as the other 3) to shoot even at distances as close as 5m (yes - 5 METERS) :-O ...
Today's recurve bows (and long bows) CAN handle this level of "asymmetry" or "imbalance" between the 2 limbs.
REMEMBER even the "conventional" drawing point of the bow ISN'T EXACTLY IN THE MIDDLE OF THE STRING EITHER :-O !
And on a 64 inch recurve bow, you're moving 5 fingers which - if you MEASURE it - really sums up to about 2 1/2 inches out of 64: only about a 4% (FOUR PERCENT) "imbalance" - NOT A BIG DEAL...
MOST recurve bows are ALREADY DESIGNED so that you're ALREADY drawing almost 2 FULL FINGERS (1 1/4 inches) from CENTER ANYWAY, so a 5 finger stringwalking "gap" is really only about a 2% change from the DESIGNED DRAWING POINT :-O
Tell me about YOU, your location, your bow and your distances you want to get good at !
Cheers,
-Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
@@VOGTLANDOUTDOORS Have you tried running a negative tiller to reduce the imbalance?
@@VOGTLANDOUTDOORS Please disregard my last question. Just realized your bows do not permit tiller adjustment. Will try it on my ilf riser.
Way to exaggerated showing the cheek anchor point, its nowhere near that much on the side as you are showing in your video. I use my index finger on the cheek bone anchor and my string is right below my eye pupil, i dont need to do any left and right compensation. I can upload a video if someone is interested
edit: Not to mention that you are on one hand unconditionally promoting something without being really detailed about all the aspects of the method and all the downsides, which are plenty, and on the other hand you are obviously trying for some reason to s*it on something that is used for centuries, way before string on the chin. Not to mention a lot of really stupid arguments as the one about the different range that you are getting with this two different methods, making people belive that they are really going to get some adventages with chin string versus cheek anchor...
edit #2: And it is very sad that with that low amount of knowledge about archery in general obviously, or at least knowledge about anchor points you are trying to promote something to someone, especialy with things like " if you are anchoring to the cheek your hand is going to wobble" ??? or " if you want to release your hand need to float in the air to release" ???. Like seriously, have you ever watched any tutorial or video of our well known traditional archers?
I just want to say for the record, i am not here to argue in any way, i let people use what fits them best, you like and prefer string on the chin, good for you, but i know how people are and they are definitly going to take all this for granted, so i typed all this just as a reminder for people that watch, research a bit more before you try something that is coming from a guy that didnt acctualy gave a lot of arguments other then blindly promoting something that he think is best! Best of luck
edit #3: Omg, you dont even know the basics of the proper release, saying you need to move your hand from the cheek to open them. You dont open fingers for the string to go, string slides of your fingers. Man theres so many things wrong with you, with your attitude, with your method that i am pissed i acctualy came across this channel...
Greetings Boba,
I'm going to leave your entire set of comments up, forever.
I've been working on this channel for almost 2 years now, and I can say without a doubt (you can sift through all the comments up if you're so inclined) that yours is the FIRST negative comment I've received so far.
I can't even COUNT the number of COMPLIMENTS I've received.
I'm nearly 60 years old, and I've been an archer since I built my first takedown recurve bow in high school wood shop (typical for the hinterlands of northern Minnesota) way back in 1977. I can still shoot that bow - that's how well-made it was. Pretty good for a high school kid ;-) ...
That said, you might be surprised to know that for the vast vast majority of my shooting I shot TRADITIONAL - JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE :-O
- anchored at my cheek, and played with the height over the years (decades)...
- drew back mostly Mediterranean grip, but I suppose I dabbled with 3-under off & on as well...
- tried to learn different gaps (both up-down as well as left-right)...
IN EVERY REGARD I WAS AS "TRADITIONAL" an archer as you appear to be.
THEN around 2010 I purchased my first-ever COMPOUND BOW: a BROWNING AMBUSH 80 (65#)
The SPEED & POWER of the bow wasn't what caught my attention - it was the ACCURACY...
Like most archers then, I had 5 pins, all calibrated to 20, 30, 40, 50 and 60 yds
It was SIMPLE...
It was EASY...
It was EFFORTLESS...
I could even "interpolate" (shoot between-the-pins) so I could hit distances of 25, 35, 45 and 55 yds
I even developed a clever technique where I "extrapolate" (shoot BEYOND-the-pins), and could easily hit distances of 65, 70, 75, 80, 85, 90, 95, 100, 105, and even 110 yds with surprising precision :-O !
THEN something started nagging at me about TRADITIONAL ARCHERY...
... I started QUESTIONING all the things that DIDN'T MAKE SENSE ABOUT IT.
1. WHY do we ANCHOR SO BLOODY HIGH?
We LOSE literally 40 YARDS of DISTANCE !
2. WHY do we ANCHOR OFF TO THE SIDE at ALL ???
NO ONE DOES THIS - NO ONE DELIBERATELY INTRODUCES LEFT-RIGHT ERROR INTO THEIR SIGHTING
- OLYMPIC ARCHERS DON'T, in fact the idea would be LUDICROUS to them;
- SNIPERS and other LONG-DISTANCE MARKSMEN DON'T - if you suggested they DELIBERATELY hold their gun
TO THE SIDE OF THEIR CHEEK (even a little) and NOT look down the sights, they'd think you were DAFT;
- COMPOUND ARCHERS DON'T, in fact they literally sight down the MIDDLE of the bowstring :-O
Only "TRADITIONAL" archers DELIBERATELY introduce ERROR into their sighting technique - amazing ! :-O
3. WHY do we AIM at a POINT THAT'S NOT ACTUALLY ON THE @#$%# TARGET ???
I'm at a loss on this one; EVERY OTHER ARCHER/MARKSMAN uses a technique where they get to place
their "sights" DIRECTLY ON THE DEAD-#$%^-CENTER of their target.
Only "TRADITIONAL" archers decide NOT to do this.
SO like every OTHER archer who owned BOTH a compound bow AND a "real" bow (and I DO consider long bows and recurve bows and asian bows to be REAL "bows", and compound bows are arrow-shooting MACHINES) I found myself shooting the compound bow MORE often, simply because I wanted/needed the ACCURACY...
(note: if you're READING this respond and start wanting to retort "I can shoot TRADITIONAL every bit as accurately as a COMPOUND bow, then I'm going to gently and politely tell you you're full of crap ;-) - we BOTH know this ISN'T true. Period.)
But even this always-shooting-COMPOUND felt like a CRUTCH; deep inside my psyche I KNEW what I was doing WASN'T "REAL" archery, because the simple truth is this: If I COULDN'T pick up ANY recurve or longbow handed to me and hit a pie plate at 10m, 20m, 30m and 40m effortlessly, then I REALLY DIDN'T KNOW "ARCHERY". Period.
So I went BACK to "TRADITIONAL" archery with a vengeance...
And just when I thought I'd improved my technique at 10m, 20m and 30m with a decent 55# recurve bow (Martin Saber), I'd find myself standing next to an OLYMPIC archer shooting a wimpy 35# bow...
... but they'd shoot WITH STARTLING ACCURACY at distances of 40m, 50m, 70m and even 80m :-O
And I'd VAINLY try to anchor at my CHEEK and somehow place my arrow ON targets at 50m and beyond...
... only to see those arrows land woefully SHORT again & again & again, UNLESS I started shooting WAY ABOVE the target - at imaginary points-in-SPACE, like I was hurling a SPEAR instead of shooting a precision instrument like a LONG BOW or a RECURVE BOW :-( ...
So after regularly getting my ASS handed to me by Olympic archers (and if you tell me that this NEVER happens to YOU, I'll again tell you politely you're full of shit), I set about STUDYING both COMPOUND BOW archery and OLYMPIC BOW archery, my 2 goals being quite simple:
GOAL 1: Understand WHY these bows and shooting methods are SO MUCH MORE ACCURATE than "TRADITIONAL";
and
GOAL 2: Discover a way to INCORPORATE the SECRETS that make these other archery methods SO accurate INTO "TRADITIONAL" archery.
The RESULT?
This "VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD"
- part STRING WALKING, which I absolutely DIDN'T invent but my TECHNIQUE is quite clever;
- part OLYMPIC ARCHERY anchoring & sighting, which I absolutely DIDN'T invent; and
- part using-the-arrowhead-AS-the-front-pin, which I think I DO get credit for, only because at all distances I'm ACTUALLY placing this "sight" DIRECTLY ON the bullseye, as opposed to some gap-in-outer-space
THAT'S IT.
The ENTIRE "VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD" is comprised of 2 WELL-RESPECTED, WELL-ESTABLISHED, INDISPUTABLE archery techniques each of which are BEYOND REPROACH :-)
THIS NOW BEGS ONE VERY IMPORTANT QUESTION that YOU Boba NEED TO ANSWER:
IF my shooting method is really the simple combining of 2 ESTABLISHED, REPUTABLE techniques...
AND IF you went out of your way to tell me how my shooting method has "SO MANY THINGS WRONG WITH IT"...
Then WHICH parts of my shooting method are you REFERRING TO ???
If it's the ANCHORING method (under the chin), then are YOU saying OLYMPIC ARCHERY has "so many things WRONG with it" ???
If it's the STRING WALKING method, then are YOU saying that ALL STRING WALKERS have "something WRONG with them" ???
I'M teaching a method where you get to actually PUT the TIP of your ARROW RIGHT ON YOUR TARGET...
... and YOU have a PROBLEM with that???
I'M teaching a method where from the MOMENT I RELEASE I get to WATCH the arrowhead travel from the bow to the BULLSEYE THE ENTIRE TRIP. There ISN'T a SINGLE other shooting method which can make THIS claim (NOT compound, NOT Olympic, NOT even TRADITIONAL)... and YOU have a PROBLEM with that ???
I'M teaching a method which empowers even a NEW archer to be SUCCESSFUL nearly IMMEDIATELY in an UNDERSTANDABLE, PREDICTABLE, REPRODUCABLE and TEACHABLE way... and YOU have a PROBLEM with that???
I'M teaching a method where you can SIGHT down the ARROW yet NOT place your NOSE in between the bowstring and the riser, so you NEVER get the SKIN SCRAPED OFF YOUR NOSE (NOT even the BEST barebow archers in the WORLD can make THIS claim - they wear TAPE on their noses in competition!)... and YOU have a PROBLEM with that???
I'M teaching a method which empowers a new archer to precisely set their elevation (hence range) to within +/- 2 METERS of accuracy, across distances from 5m all the way out to 90m... and YOU have a PROBLEM with this ???
I'M teaching a method which can be taught to ANYONE (maybe even YOU) in 5 steps and 30 seconds, and that person immediately STOPS being DANGEROUS with a DEADLY WEAPON, and instead becomes an ARCHER...
... and YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THIS ???
LIKE I SAID AT THE START, I'm LEAVING YOUR COMMENTS UP FOREVER, because I'm very very CONFIDENT in my method, and in my arguments AGAINST you considering something "wrong" with my method, and I want EVERYONE visiting this website - both now & in the future - to be able to SEE this entire thread.
YOU on the other hand need to spend some time asking YOURSELF just WHAT is it that's BUGGING you about "my" method, because if you try to SHIT on "my" method what you'll ACTUALLY be doing is shitting on STRING WALKING and OLYMPIC ARCHERY, and NOT "my" method at all. And that's going to get YOU a lot more ENEMIES than ME making some light-spirited fun of some of my fellow traditional archers ;-) ...
TELL YOU WHAT...
HOW ABOUT I COME TO YOU FOR A VISIT AND A FRIENDLY SHOOT-OUT ?
If you're within 400 miles of North Aurora IL, I will gladly come to shoot at your range.
I would only ask that you invite 5 to 10 to 20 of your fellow traditional archers to join in the fun.
We're going to shoot at targets from 5m to 70m, and when we're done, I'm going to post the results here on my TH-cam Channel.
IF YOU WIN, won't that be something?? You'll get to see Mark Vogt and his "VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD" eat a big steaming pile of crow...
... but if MARK WINS (and I mean ALL of YOU - the entire LOT of your traditional archers), then YOU have to come back to this channel and TELL everyone what you saw.
In fact, If you're within 600 miles of North Aurora IL, I'll still come - I've got plenty of PTO accrued that all I need to worry about is GAS and a HOTEL ROOM.
So tell me where you are Boba, because I'm in the mood to PROVE my method.
It's really a question of whether or not YOU'RE capable to proving YOUR "opinions".
;-)
Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
RATS !!!
You're in PIROT, SERBIA ???
HOW the HELL are we supposed to manage a FRIENDLY SHOOT OUT if I have to fly all the way to SOUTHEAST SERBIA just to shoot with you???
Luckily I have other shooting buddies who are Serbian (no I'm NOT kidding - I really do!)
They immigrated here when they were in their 20's, but now they're all in their mid-40's...
They ONLY shoot COMPOUND BOWS (typical), but even this summer told me they'd started shooting BAREBOW, and were practicing my shooting method, and they're CONVINCED IT HAS MERIT.
So I guess it's just YOU over there in Pirot, working in a tire shop. You're the ONLY one who thinks he knows BETTER ;-) ...
WHAT ABOUT THIS?
DO you have any FRIENDS or RELATIVES here in the USA, who ALSO like archery as much as you & me, but who are CLOSE enough to me that I can come to THEM, DEMONSTRATE this shooting method, COMPETE against them, and have THEM tell YOU if it's all bullshit or not?
That would actually be a COOL ADVENTURE for this TH-cam channel !
BY THE WAY... I also see that you're just a KID.
That makes your criticism even MORE ANNOYING, because I'VE been an ARCHER and I've been shooting TRADITIONAL literally LONGER THAN YOU'VE BEEN ALIVE.
IMAGINE some punk little 8 year old trying to tell YOU how to shoot a bow...
... and you'll know what it's like for me to read YOU telling ME how to shoot a bow.
Sorry to be provoking you SO MUCH, but it's actually YOU who are annoying - I'M just defending myself.
THINKING OUT LOUD...
IF I DID fly all the way to PIROT to come shoot with you & your archery buddies, I would have to shoot YOUR bows, as I wouldn't be able to travel with my own bow. I'd bring my own finger glove and forearm guard - that's about it.
WHERE do you guys SHOOT in Pirot??
When I talk to GERMANS and SPANIARDS and ITALIANS and TURKISH subscribers (I have lots of them), they all make it sound like shooting "outdoors" is IMPOSSIBLE in Europe, so what do YOU guys do?
Waiting to hear from you,
-Mark
All kinds of info on TH-cam good and bad. This could make since to those without a solid understanding of archery dynamics and form.
Greetings & Merry Christmas Jeffery !
I... THINK you've giving me a COMPLIMENT?
Hard to tell ;-) ...
If it IS a compliment (because I AM an engineer with MULTIPLE Masters Degrees, and I DO have a SOLID understanding of Archery Dynamics), then THANK YOU :-) ...
-Mark
PS: feel free to watch some of my recent VIBRATION-DAMPING videos, and you'll what else I understand about BOWS-MAKING-NOISE as well !
Was neither a compliment nor dig just a informative comment for viewers. Last time I checked they don’t give Masters degrees for archery but congratulations on your hard work to achieve them. Your description of the Olympic archery anchor point is lacking understanding of archery form. This also stands true for your explanation of the side of face anchor. This is why I said “This could make since to those without a solid understanding of archery dynamics and form.” Without understanding of how the rest of the body should work to achieve proper alignment this could make since. You very well may understand this but your video doesn’t translate it and could give some very bad habits resulting in injuries to shoulders. It is great to see someone with a passion for traditional archery and willing to put themselves out there with the intentions to help others start in this great sport.
Merry Christmas to you and yours!
@@jefferyhernandez4222
Did you mean "make SENSE" (not "make since") in your first post?
That was a point of confusion for me...
NEVER stated having a "Masters degree in ARCHERY" did I? Just multiple Masters degrees in Engineering (U of MN IT) and ComputerScience/AI (IIT),and spent 4+ years teaching college Physics, Engineering & Calculus, so my knowledge of Ballistics and Mechanics of Motion is actually pretty solid...
Greetings Jeffery !
I didn't ever claim to have a "Masters Degree in ARCHERY"; I did claim several "Masters Degrees", which happen to be Mechanical Engineering(Robotics) from U of MN IT and Computer Science (AI) from IIT; also in previous videos I may have mentioned that I spent about 4+ years as a college Calculus and Physics Professor, so my grasp of Ballistic Motion and Mechanics in general is pretty solid :-) ...
YOU keep saying something about "making SINCE", and I'm NOT clear what you mean - do you mean "making SENSE"?
A key point I keep trying to make is that Traditional-style cheek-anchoring actually INTRODUCES DIFFERING AMOUNTS OFLATERAL ERROR on EVERY shot at EVERY DISTANCE - error which must be mentally compensated-for on EVERY shot, and hence places large (and UNnecessary) challenges on TRADITIONAL archers compared to their Olympic-style and Compound-style counterparts...
To ME it's CLEAR that Olympic-style anchoring serves MULTIPLE purposes:
- YOUR focus seems to be on OPTIMAL BODY ALIGNMENT, presumably in order to MINIMIZE POSSIBLE INJURY; such that when I DON'T mention this you appear to interpret this as a "lack of understanding" on MY part;
- MY focus has been on making everyone understand something MORE interesting and IMPORTANT: Olympic-style anchoring enables an archer's SIGHTING EYE to be ALIGNED NEARLY PERFECTLY OVER THE SHAFT OF THE ARROW, virtually ELIMINATING the LATERAL ERROR that cheek-anchoring introduces !
-- Anyone (including me) who has shot both COMPOUND bows, OLYMPIC RECURVE bows (with T-bar sight) AND TRADITIONAL bows will have eventually arrived at this VERY SAME "EPIPHANY" about TRADITIONAL-style archery, so I'm NOT claiming to have "discovered" something here... Also,
-- Anyone (including me) who has ANCHORED both ON-CHEEK and UNDER-CHIN will ALSO have had ANOTHER epiphany: anchoring UNDER-chin provides a STARTLING AMOUNT OF ADDITIONAL ELEVATION in the ARROW, resulting in a surprising INCREASED RANGE with even SMALL-DRAW-WEIGHT BOWS :-O
(note: THIS explains - FINALLY - why so many TRADITIONAL archers look on in DISBELIEF at the distances they CAN'T hit while Olympic archers with smaller bows CAN; their cheek-anchoring is quite literally shooting-them-in-the-foot not ONCE but TWICE ! #1: INCREASED ERROR and #2: DECREASED RANGE...)
Neither you nor I are "wrong" about our perception of Olympic-style anchoring; I simply perceive we're focused on two DIFFERENT aspects of this method :-).
You are the first (only?) viewer to comment on a possible lack-of-explanation in MY videos which MAY lead to newbie archers possibly injuring themselves.
THIS part I need to take as SERIOUS, CONSTRUCTIVE feedback from YOU - a fellow archer - so watch for me to work to include more explanations in future videos.
MY GOAL FOR THIS CHANNEL IS EVER THE SAME: to provide newbie archers of all kinds (even compound bows with NO sights and NO release :-O!) a simple, easy-to-learn, easy-to-perfect SHOOTING METHOD that is COMPLETELY "PORTABLE" - you literally "carry it in your pocket", and it can be used on ANY bow of ANY type and ANY draw weight, and still yield EXCELLENT RESULTS while encouraging only SAFE BODY MECHANICS which minimize injuries.
Your feedback today helps me continue to improve my videos, so for that you have my THANKS :-).
-Mark | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
PS: I know NOTHING about you, and am always interested to know WHERE you're from and HAVE you TRIED this method?
Cheers - MV
Wow.....🤦🏼 just way to much to correct.
P.S. you obtain the same string/arrow alignment with both anchor points with proper bone alignment, you only change your arrow to target gap.
Your anchoring seems similar to @JakeKaminskiArchery when he shoot’s bare bow but yours seems just a little more directly under the front portion of your chin.
Greetings Max !
Did YOU just compare MY shooting method to a LEGEND like Jake Kaminski ???
Wow !
I'LL TAKE THAT AS A COMPLIMENT !
I have a curious question to ask you:
Jake's been shooting for most of his life, but he's only been shooting BAREBOW for less than 2 years.
QUESTION: when YOU watch ALL of Jake's "barebow" videos from the first to the current, do YOU see any CHANGES in his anchoring position?
Let me know back here - I have a reason for asking ;-) !
-Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
Also, a face anchor doesn’t float. If it does than it’s not an anchor. If a persons face anchor floats, they are doing it wrong.
Cerca,
You & I are in agreement about truly "floating" anchors - there ARE risks involved in this technique.
THAT SAID, next time you're at the RANGE and WATCHING others shoot barebow, pay close attention to just HOW MANY archers out there in fact DO "float" their anchors - it's FAR MORE COMMON than you might realize :-O !
I've even got really good SHOOTING BUDDIES who display this less-than-idea habit, and I can TELL you WHY it happens: THEY STOP SHOOTING ALOT, so they get WEAK, and they CAN'T DRAW BACK THEIR BOWS ANYMORE !
NOT KIDDING - this really really happens. ALL THE TIME.
I even see total STRANGERS coming to the range with a 50# bow they have absolutely NO business drawing back.
SO WHAT HAPPENS?
SIMPLE:
They TRY to attain a FULL draw... but they CAN'T, so ... THEY DON'T.
INSTEAD their anchor just "sits" out there at about 27 INCHES instead of 28, so they're NOT touching ANY PART of their jaw or face or cheek; then "TWANG" they just LET FLY.
It's weird, but it's REALLY happening out there.
Perhaps you need to shoot around a lot MORE people, then you'll see how common this is...
"A FACE ANCHOR DOESN'T FLOAT"
Again we completely AGREE... but this DOESN"T mean I consider a FACE ANCHOR a "good" thing either.
LET ME EXPLAIN THIS:
- WHEN you anchor against your FACE, your FINGER MUST make CONTACT with your face. This is UNAVOIDABLE.
- the CONSEQUENCE of this is that in order to RELEASE your fingers from the bowstring then, WHAT must happen?
- THAT'S RIGHT - your FINGERS absolutely MUST "PUSH" AGAINST your cheek as you release !
- When THIS happens, 1 of 2 things MUST happen:
1. Your FACE MUST MOVE to the side so that the fingers are FREE, and the bowstring is UNDEFLECTED; OR
2. Your FACE STAYS FIXED, and that means your FINGERS move, but your FINGERS are holding the BOWSTRING,
SO THE BOWSTRING NECESSARILY MUST SHIFT TO THE SIDE !
:-|
CAN people COMPENSATE for this?
Yes. But my POINT is - THIS DOES HAPPEN WITH FACE ANCHORING - THERE'S NO ESCAPING THIS .
NOW ask yourself WHAT HAPPENS when you ANCHOR UNDER YOUR CHIN, then RELEASE the BOWSTRING ?
ANSWER: NOTHING - the bowstring has NO reason to SHIFT, either to the left or right :-O
STUFF TO PONDER ON A TUESDAY EVENING ;-) ...
Cheers,
-Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
@@VOGTLANDOUTDOORS yeah I’m not trying to discount your chin release. I think it has some serious advantages, especially when it comes to distance shooting. I just get like I have to defend my face release when I hear you running it down. 🤣
I think there is space in this world for both techniques. And I get that there isn’t just one way to skin a cat. Even a guy like Jake Kaminski (Olympic recurve silver medalist) shoots with a slightly lower anchor for barebow, but when you look at guys like John Demmer, Grayson Partlowe, Michael Fisher, John Dillinger... anybody who is competition proven and wins podium positions... these guys all anchor along their face. It’s true of indoor spot and 3D alike.
Now I get that that doesn’t mean it’s the only way to do a thing. Everybody has to find their own path, and like I’ve said, I have a lot of respect for the anchor you’ve chosen. But clearly a face anchor has been proven for its accuracy. So when you run that down, I’m not sure your giving it it’s fair do. That’s all. 😉👍✌️🏹
Much respect. May our arrows fly true, friend!
@@VOGTLANDOUTDOORS also one more point... my fingers don’t push against my face on release. I have a fairly shallow hook. Shallower than some of my betters even recommend, but when I’m about to release I am expanding. I’m keeping forward tension with my bow arm and in my string side rhomboid, fully getting into my back, so at the break my fingers are (ideally) slipping back along my face. A release should never be the consequence of opening the hook fingers but rather a combination of increased tension along the desired arrow trajectory while at the same time fully relaxing all muscles of the hand. That way the break is more like the string slipping from the hook than actively released. If that makes any sense.
INTERESTING POST TODAY !
I MUST ask:
IF your fingers AREN'T pushing (touching) your face on release, THEN... you're FLOATING, now AREN'T you ?
;-)
FUNNY how so many guys DENY floating, but ALSO deny making contact with their cheek. CAN'T have BOTH - you're either CONTACTING (and therefore PUSHING as your fingers extend, whether you REALIZE it or not) or you're FLOATING...
Enjoy your day !
-Mark
@@VOGTLANDOUTDOORS responded with a video comment. It easier than typing and I’m lazy (at least pre coffee ;) )
I hear your logic, but the difference between what you’re saying and reality with Olympic style recurve archery is the sight…..trad bows don’t use a sight, OR bows do. The reason you don’t use a cheek anchor with OR is because you can no longer use the sighting system. Your argument is good, and workable if not successful with practice. I have shot OR and Compund, and now fully shoot trad and I find cheek works far better than OR at 30-50 yards…..
What bow is that?
Greetings AverageAshi !
ANSWER:
In most of my videos I'm shooting these 2 (favorite) bows:
1. Blue (fishing colors I guess) Martin JAGUAR 55# bow; and
2. Camo (hunting) Martin SABRE 55# bow
LOVE both bows. Hard to decide between them.
IF had to choose ONE... would go with the MARTIN JAGUAR, because the RISER has been milled to accept ILF limbs, and THAT'S COOL :-O
Cheers,
-Mark | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
@@VOGTLANDOUTDOORS thanks! Love your videos. No nonsense and really helpful. Ive been introduced to archery in the olympic style and yes, i can say that the sight picture is way better when anchoring under the chin.
Keep the videos coming 😁
More perfect video if you make video without sound. and edit with your explanation about what you will teach us
Greetings Hartoni!
THANKS for this EXCELLENT idea - watch for me to re-record this !
Cheers,
-Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
🏹
Years ago the Miami Dolphins wondered why people weren't watching their videos. Turned out viewers didn't want to watch the same intro over and over.
OUCH !
OK OK - I've FIXED this !
Thanks for being so gentle ;-)
-Mark
If I had to shoot something at 100-120yds I'd use a rifle!
Hi Bill Barry !
Ha - yes - a 100 yard shot IS a tough shot for a bow, and an even tougher shot with a BAREBOW...
... but check out THIS recent video I just shot about 2 weeks ago:
SHORTS (1 minute) version:
th-cam.com/users/shortsWaH0LwO8coY
ORIGINAL VERSION:
th-cam.com/video/BaB1499Fe50/w-d-xo.html
Hopefully this will make you re-think at least TRYING to shoot at 100yds ;-)
Cheers,
-Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
That looks unnatural and uncomfortable to shoot under the chin
Greetings Jaded and welcome to VOGTLAND OUTDOORS !
INTERESTING COMMENT from you:
"looks uncomfortable to shoot UNDER THE CHIN"
Are you aware that this is PRECISELY the SAME anchor used by ALL OLYMPIC RECURVE ARCHERS WORLD-WIDE ???
:-O
Yup - it's true.
I DIDN'T "invent' this technique - I BORROWED this time-tested, competition-tested technique :-O !
LINK TO PICTURES OF OLYMPIC ARCHERS ANCHORING UNDER THEIR CHIN:
www.google.com/search?q=%22olympic+recurve%22+archers+shooting&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwij8aWpo5v9AhVLTrgEHfk1D9UQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=%22olympic+recurve%22+archers+shooting&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQAzoECCMQJ1D3FFjvJGCFJmgAcAB4AIAB5wSIAfkPkgEHMi0zLjUtMpgBAKABAaoBC2d3cy13aXotaW1nwAEB&sclient=img&ei=E8fuY-ObH8uc4dUP-eu8qA0&bih=905&biw=1920&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS954US954
VISIT that link, and in it you'll see literally EVERY champion Olympic Recurve Archer and their form...
... and - without exception - they are ALL OF THEM ANCHORING UNDER THEIR CHIN.
Hope this gives you some "homework" - and a great reason to take out your recurve bow (or borrow one) and do some fun EXPERIMENTING !
Cheers,
-Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
Strange.