I run a small R&D company. Couple of years ago we switched to KiCAD from Candece mostly because of licensing costs (adding more places required a lot more investment). Our first steps with KiCAD were hard, but now we can do almost anything. We are doing a lot of DDR3 and fine pitch FPGA routing in KiCAD quite easily. What we have not yet tried KiCAD for is RF (over 1GHz) design. Personally, now when I used to it, I like KiCAD much more than Cadence. I wish KiCAD gets faster development, more features have to be added and some GUI improved. I think I have to donate to KiCAD some $$. :)
@@RobertFeranec , you are welcome. I advise to check OrangeCrab open hardware project made by Greg from Australia, there's Lattice ECP5 with 0.4mm pitch csFBGA285 and DDR3 all routed on incredibly small PCB. Very good project to learn KiCAD capabilities.
I've only used KiCad for a small PCB project. Are you able to set up rules in KiCad like you would in altium? Differential/length matched/impedance controlled routing etc?
@@EricHelgesen1 Yes, you can setup rules for diff pairs for differential impedance matching, I have never used Altium so I don't know how it compares. Also there is a separate tool in KiCad that adds squiggles to tracks while doing single ended or differential length and skew matching.
For hobbyists like me, I think the most important thing to consider is available component libraries. I find painful to draw a symbol and a footprint for every new component I use. In this aspect, EasyEDA is a winner as it has a searchable online library tightly integrated with the LCSC store. However, I sometimes order bad PCBs because of wrong footprints so you should always check them.
All the major component distributors are contracting with one or another "universal" library companies to provide direct links from the ordering website to schematic symbols, PCB footprints, and 3D models. Presumably a distributor that doesn't have those links loses customers to some other distributor that does. However, as you pointed out, the quality of those libraries is often questionable. I find that almost always I end up redrawing the symbols and footprints, either because they are incorrect, or just poorly thought out layout of pins, or poor labeling of footprints. It suggests that either rather poor automation was used to generate the libraries, or a sweatshop type situation.
@@arnauddurand127 I suggest printing a 1:1 scale printout of the PCB onto paper. Lay SMD components onto the pads, and poke THT ones through the paper. It’s a cheap and easy way to check footprints.
Well, even though KiCAD has been difficult to use, it's open source and free, and has been working fantastically for my projects. Sure KiCAD may not be the "best" but its a great piece of software for the hobbyist and laymem who don't want to pay lots of money for advanced PCB software.
Honestly, i don't actually see how KiCAD is difficult to use, I've been using it for ages, i think it's awesome and not just because it's Open Source and Free
In my company we did designed some complex boards using KiCad, but we recently we have migrated from KiCad to Altium becasue of 3D experience PLM/PDM software from dassault systems works with Altium. KiCad is nothing is less than any other software. It is the best software I have ever used till now. More importantly We use the same rules for the PCB design software. For my personal I use KiCad ALWAYS. Thanks Feranec, your videos really helped me particularly altium topics.
I tried cadence, eagle, pads and finally, I tried Altium. Altium seemed very easy to learn and it can let you design complex boards easily, I'm sticking with Altium now. great video like always! well done :)
I use Pulsonix as my main CAD, and I think it's a shame that hardly anyone considers this software! In my experience it is by far the most intuitive to use and perhaps even the most flexible: I like the really extensive customization that can be achieved. Every single aspect of the design can be customized... I bet anyone can learn how to use it in a day. One downside is the limited number of built-in libraries and the poor 3D view, but that's not a problem for me: I always design my custom libraries anyway, and I use external 3D design software. I'd like to see a brief tryout of this CAD by Robert. I'm sure he would be impressed. I have used Altium a lot (and sometimes even now). In my experience, I found myself googling for tutorials/guides for every single thing, especially during PCB layout... (luckily there is the Robert's Channel that has plenty of Altium tutorials! Tnx Robert!!!!) Also it's full of bugs! For me this is really unacceptable.
I used Eagle three years ago, and I think it is best for beginners and then I moved to Altium after some months and it was great experience and I think I am in love with Altium 😅
Hi Robert, thanks for the video. As a suggestion, since you have experience in many tools, I would find very valuable to show specific features that are available on some EDA tool and lacking in others. For example I know Allegro can generate a rigid-flex pcb 3D model with flex sections bent in certain angles while kicad can not do that. Allegro can export ODB++ while kicad can't. A matrix of these would be very helpful. Kicad uses ascii working files and so you can do git version control while you can not do that with proprietary tools as far as I know. Kicad is working on a python scripting API, don't know if others have something similar.
Cadence allegro is best (28 years experience)a lot of software simulation tool but expensive. Mentor expensive but it doesn't have all feature tools simulation (5 years experience ) Altium, a lot of bugs ( 5 years experience) , but cheap Other are cheap tool and good for beginners ,
Personally I really like kicad, it doesn't have all the features of altium that I would like to use, but has some that altium doesn't and it's open source and supported in Linux natively. The good thing is that it keeps getting better with every version, you can see the progress.
I'm in my fourth year of electrical engineering and I've been following your Altium tutorials while doing my capstone project. It feels great knowing I'm learning something I can put on my resume. Thanks for all your help Robert! On a side note I don't like the continual updates - as a new user I'm already overwhelmed, and I find myself getting tripped up by "bleeding edge" features. For instance, I tried to define Design Rules for the first time and was confused why the option wasn't showing, then I learned they added Constraint Manager feature (which was selected by default when I created my project). I had to re-create my project and transfer everything to get Design Rules so I could properly follow tutorials. There might be an easier way that I'm missing to change the formats, but you get the idea.
For hobbyist - EasyEDA :) However, it is so hard to switch to it from Altium even for the personal projects... May be one day, when I have no a company license available...
I have been using Altium for 1.5 year now, because the company I used to work at taught me that, and learned sooo many things, and the way to do it in Altium. On the other hand I used KiCAD for like two projects. I feel like they are completely different, but I wouldn’t say KiCAD is for hobbyists only. Real life example: my university department is working on satellites. They made the first ever working 5x5x5 cm cubesat, and guess what? They designed it in KiCAD. If it is good enough for a satellite, I think it is good for so many projects. (Maybe other softwares could be better for the reasons you mentioned) All in all, for me Altium is the most comfortable, since I learned most of the stuff through it. I think this question is like programming. Once you learn one of them, learning to use another one shouldn’t be that big deal.
I tried Altium and I liked it. But whn I got my job in automotive company, I started using Cadence. If I could, I would never switch back to Altium, but probably I will have to someday. Cadence maybe has "vintage" user interface, but in comparison to Altium we have the same situation as when we compare Linux and Windows. OrCad is complex to learn, but has much more useful features than Altium. You can even write scripts in SKILL language to automate some exports or processess. I hope Altium gets some similar features in the feature since it has more user friendly interface and is still powerful PCB layout tool.
I started out as a hobbyist using KiCAD because it was free. Me and a friend are trying to see about starting up a company and we plan on me to continue using KiCAD for the beginning. Eventually if we are designing enough boards or complex boards we will switch to something like Altium.
I used Altium for a very long time, but I find the parts library and search a mess at so many levels. Moved to Kicad and I am finding 95% of the footprints in the standard library. Even if the controls aren't as intuitive and the UI isn't as nice, I can go from schematic to gerber in a couple hours. The same would've taken me 6 hours with Altium (designing THT footprints and standardizing hole sizes, etc.) Surely it has its advantages, but for a hobbyist that wants a circuit quick without roadblocks, I recommend Kicad all day.
I need to give KiCad another try. While I like Altium a lot, footprints are a constant PITA, and it’s obviously far too expensive for home use. Right now I can use it through school, but that won’t last forever, and so I don’t want to use it for personal stuff, since I’d lose access to my own designs. Has KiCad’s schematic editor learned to draw rectilinear lines? It drove me nuts that moving a component symbol would cause all its connections to turn into diagonal lines.
@@tookitogo Altium will sometimes make you a very good offer via a phone call, but cant talk about how much I paid. It was a very good deal though. At any rate, I feel they're really interested in making it the industry standard, but they're only interested in large companies who have engineers designing everything from scratch. So they'll never really update the library. That's my guess on it. And got zero idea about that one. I never move a component, only move things in blocks. I usually give myself extra room and use lots of net labels as to not make the schematic look awful, and then i move the entire block to it's final place.
I agree, I am finding footprints more often in the standard library than I did in Altium. Kind of weird...but I guess this is where open-source collaboration wins over commercial idk
Great comparison, I agree on few points like Altium GUI is easy and simple to learn, I have used both and I prefer Allegro, I have worked on different tools like Altium, Pads, Eagle, Cadstar, the main reason they are lagging as they have not improved over the time except Altium (but still have Bugs) In Allegro its a robust tool, Constraint manager, DFM and Team Design Option I love, Altium is good in term of GUI, mechanical 3D views, etc. but once it comes for handling complex board it is a challenge in Altium to setup all the constrains.
Being able to completely work offline with a perpetual license can be a very important requirement. You did not mention this in your comparisons. But otherwise very informational video as usual!
I think they all have also offline licenses ... just it will depend also on your company setup e.g. if your projects are on company servers and what exactly they use.
I started with Eagle at school than tried Kicad for personal projects. I like both but I prefer Eagle for 3D view and enclosure design with Fusion 360. Now I want to do PCB layout design for a living so I have to choose between Cadence or Altium. Altium seems to have a great community. I sometimes listen to the "On Track" podcasts and learn a lot. I think I will go for Altium.
It would also be nice to mention why they use it. Is it the best or they just like the support? For example KiCad could have a better workflow & features, but they dont use it because they are afraid of having some weird or unsupported problem. OR are they just stuck in their methods?
Have used OrCAD at work and KiCAD for hobbyist stuff for about 5 years. The OrCAD learning curve is horrendous and there aren't a lot of good training tools out there (this channel being one of the few) but once you're up to speed on it it's impressive how 'right' the tool feels to use, in that you aren't running into as many weird quirks as you may get with KiCAD. I've played around with Altium Schematic but not layout, would love to try to do a large board in it
One of the best packages out there is Diptrace. This software really desserve to be more known. It's by far better than Eagle, Kicad, it has a better interaction model (mouse handling is absolutely intuitive), and has all the tools for manufacturability support. I never understood why it's not known in Europe despite the fact it's developed in Europe.
I have fond memories of DipTrace. I consider it to be the EASIEST low-end schematic entry and PCB layout software. I remember it as being the software in which all the basic stuff "just worked" straight from the super-slim software package. It was relatively cheap, too...
If you like to go with Altium, consider Solidworks PCB, which is basically a one year older Altium Designer, but also a few thousands cheaper. Some special features may be missing, like teardrop pads but all the rest is compatible with AD, like files and libraries. I worked on many projects with it and did not miss anything from the genuine Altium Designer.
@@piratesofbytes Yes it really looks like at the front end but it is not the same. Just compare the sizes between Circuits Studio setup ~500MB vs. Solidworks PCB >1GB. I checked the features of Altium Designer and I found almost anything in SW PCB as well like MCAD/ECAD support with direct STEP models link, realtime 2D/3D clearance checking, texture mapping of 2D and 3D models, extensive 2D/3D view configurations, hug and push traces, diff pairs, obstacle-ignore, design variants support, parts database support (ODBC for example), IPC footprint & case generation wizard which also generates nice 3D bodies and very important for us: it has an integrated version control system. The only thing I found so far that SW PCB does not support what AD does, is teardrop vias. But that is nothing we ever needed for something like vias in flex PCBs which should be avoided anyway.
Thank you very for the video Robert, In my professional life I have always used Altium, always found it quite easy to grasp and do designs. Now I moved to another company, they are using PADS. And I am totally frustrated how NOT user it is friendly and HARD it is to use. And I believe more expensive than Altium. At least I know that a work to be done in Altium would take less time than in PADS. And sadly I am sure that I would do mistakes in complex boards because there is less tools to proof your design. They say that PADS is more configurable and detailed. I am sceptical about that, but the fact is what is the point if you could not use the comfigurabily. I hope I could convince them to get a license for Altium. Otherwise the life would be very hard and unpleasant.
I first learned eagle because thats what my dad used and it's made me really annoyed about library management in the two cads i have used since then, those being orcad and kicad. I really like that eagle attaches the footprint or footprints to the schematic symbol. When you make the schematic symbol, you tell it what footprint or footprints it can use, and manually connect the pins. When you then move from the schematic to the pcb editor, it makes it a lot easier to figure out what fooprints can be used and you don't have to worry about pin number mismatches.
Back then, my university teach Mentor, while I am using Eagle 7.x for my own project, I completely hate the complexity in Mentor... Now I've been using Altium for 3 years. It has a lot of bugs, the UI are a bit messy, but the situation are improved in recent version. I have also used KiCad, which I think is better then Eagle. If you are just getting start, I recommend KiCad because it is simple.
I have never used KiCAD, but I think that if people pay attention to the development of KiCAD enough then eventually you will not need Altium, etc. KiCAD is able to do what the other does. The only difference is that CADs we called "professional SW" are allowing us to do hard tasks more easily than Kicad does. It does not mean that you cannot design a high-level Mainboard in Kicad , because they are all CAD software and they are all able to do the layout and generate Gerber.
I had contact with all these software that you had mentioned. Because I started with Cadance when I am doing my diploma around 20 years back, followed by mentor graphics in my first job as the engineer assistant , thirdly, Altium and for KiCAD, I am still trying out. After coming into contact with Altium, I feel that everything looks so much easier. Altium let you do everything from Schematic Capture to Berber in the same software, whereelse, for cadance and mentor, you will need to switch between different software in the package to get the job done. And when switching between different software, you have to be sure that your things are all correct. Else, if errors are being detected any the advance stage, you will cry, because you have to redo everything again. Whatever it is, no matter what software you are using, the flow of the design are all the same, schematic capture, component and package selection, layout, and generating project output like gerber and BOM. Altium is good if you are in a company that require you to do everything by yourself, while cadance and mentor is more suited for enterprise level whereby there is a CADCAM department dedicated to maintaining these tools.
Hi Robert, You have great videos, and this one is one of them. I'd like to know why you are questioning the future of KiCAD? I think that open source as well as the maker scene is booming due to the low manufacturing costs for prototypes, and this will fuel KiCAD's future. I however doubt that KiCAD will ever make it into large companies, due to the fact that it's free. But this is also speculation. Just look where Ubuntu is these days. Regards
More fool big companies. Read the small print on the user agreement on what rights you have to the resulting design (or don't have). Kicad does not have any user agreement, simply a software license that requires you to make the source code of any changes that you make to the SOFTWARE that you subsequently distribute, to the users of that software. All the OUTPUT of the software, and the included libraries, are entirely your own, you can do with them as you will, including selling them, or giving them away. Kicad makes no claim on them. There are no limitations on size or usage of the designs. The huge leap forward with Kicad was when CERN standardized on it for their designs, and paid developers to get it up to a standard suitable for CERN's designs.
Hello Mr. Robert. I am an electrical engineer and I want to learn Altium Designer. If possible, give me some tips on how to start learning? step by step? where to start? And how can I learn? Thank you!!👌
I'm on the hobbyist camp. Started with Eagle CAD, but due to limitation in board size for non-licensees (8 x 10 cm), switched to KiCad and never looked back. I have no experience with other CAD software, can't afford to pay several thousand dollars for a license, so very likely won't use them. Compared with Eagle I found KiCad more intuitive and easier to learn. Long live KiCad!
Nice video! A few things I thought about: - as a beginner, you will spend more time learning how to design PCBs than how to use your software. So it doesn't matter as much. - While KiCAD is free, if you're a company you might want to get a support contract from one of the companies to have your bugs and feature requests prioritized, get training etc.
Thank you. PS: I would also add to the first point: I always consider what software to learn as it is huge time investment. So I want to be sure that I learn something what I can use also when my projects will grow, get more complex and complicated.
@@RobertFeranec I agree, however I've found that that basic skills are much faster to relearn in a new software than advanced skills. So for me, I like considering not just the time investment, but how transferable that investment will be.
I used to use PADS (Mentor) and love it but have been using Eagle for 20 years now. It got better and better and works fine for us. However, I stop at version 6 because anything newer is subscription only and I do not do subscription if at all possible
Nice video. The more expensive software packages can do more complex tasks like DDR routing, via fields and stitching for RF that you would otherwise have to do manually. If you are going to simulate your design you want to make sure it can import/export to your other software without problems. For example, Kicad can export to Hyperlinx, but the same Hyperlinx file doesn't get imported to CST properly (missing vias). And often some schematic netlists cannot be exported across other platforms. If your software can run scripts that may help in the conversion process.
I'm a long time KiCad user. Although only as a hobby, I've done a lot of projects, audio, power electronics, digital. I can do a project really quickly and the biggest advantage is that it's free and it works on linux. I would try Altium but I'm not paying $3000 for it. And it's only Windows based.
Since I don't have any experience with the others, KiCad is obviously the best!! ;) I have used the free version of EAGLE for a long time. But Autodesk making Eagle "rent-a-program", needing an account and internet connection, drove me to look at KiCad. I got used to it (every program has its quirks) and use it exclusively. It currently looks like my electronics hobby is growing into a job, so I might check out "professional" programs soon. But Eagle is definitely out of the question for that. I will never base my livelihood on a program where my work depends on the whim of a company of keeping some license server active.
It would be nice to add the cost of each for 1 person ("seat") and 5 seats, along with annual maintenance costs. The reason is that this information is not available on the web or from these companies. They insist on the BS of having a salesperson or rep firm assess your "needs" and provide a complicated "quote".
Any time a big company pulls those sorts of shenanigans, its a huge turn-off for me. Yes, even if I am actually willing to spend real money on the sort of product they sell. Maybe I just have a strong aversion to anything that involves their sales rep schmoozing with my purchasing rep when I technically have neither and would rather they just shut up and take my money.
I use easyEDA and Iv started to make more PCBs for work so switched to kiCad, ended up going back to easyEDA due to the hierarchical Schematic in kiCad. I just want multi page schematics. EasyEDA is ok but wish it had more support for 3D model files (import STEP files) and been caught out by library foot print change without me knowing. (10 prototypes were Ok, went to order 1000 pcbs and the only change I made was the silk screen, this imported a updated footprint without me knowing and cause so much pain for me to fix) after that I make my own footprints and library’s so I’m in complete control. That was the main reason why I tried kiCad
Hi, every time I watch your videos I learn a new thing. I hope one day you talk about differential lines and how to simulated, specilly in how to accomplish the required impedance for any length. Best Regards
Where i work we use Altium and i've very happy with it. Some things can be improved, but each new version brings some improvements, so i see it going in good directions in the future. For 1 project we were working for an outside company and we needed to integrate in their environment and use Eagle. I had used Eagle back when i was in uni, and while it has gotten a lot better since then, its almost useless compared to professional software. I've heard great things about KiCAD from colleagues that use it for personal stuff.
I wouldn't necessarily use the best software. I would take the software with the least resistance and the widest distribution. That is currently Altium.
There's also #3Eagle Autodesk, I understood it's right after #1Allegro and #2Altium in that order. What's your most favour PCB CAD softwares? Indeed the most used PCB CAD softwares in the PCB industry are Allegro and Altium and it's usually the 2 options both or one of them mainly Allegro in jobs posts.
Sohail Ahmed Zia, Designing in Domestic Solar Power Electronics. PCB designing begins with schematic capture, for me the best software is the one which has 1. Best connection integrity in schematics, 2. Knows, what is needed next to save time. I learned orcad up to 10.5 but could not continue as could not purchase, obviously the looks of KiCad are of a professional software, but have anyone tried to move a part/component after making connections, does connections follow? I tried almost all free softwares and found that DesignSpark PCB Software - RS Components suits me as it tries it's best to prevent me from making a mistake and mingling connections. I am a beginner with DS PCB, just building my library for components (it is usually a necessity where I live); while designing, and yet have to complete the process for the first PCB, so can not claim my comments for its Layout. Kind Regards.
If you don't look at the price then Mentor Expedition (I've worked with it for 20 years). The best quality / price ratio is Altium Design (another 15 years with it).
We started with Eagle then graduated to Altium. Will have to try Cadence and your comments on the company pretty much killed any chance of us considering Mentor
Mentor Pads Standard Plus (not Expedition) feels like it was just a bunch of separate programs stitched together. Layout and Router are separate applications that you have to switch back and forth. Altium on the other hand has everything integrated. Pads isn't bad, there are pros and cons to each, but the scripting in Altium is an order of magnitude better than Mentor. The object snapping is a lot better in Altium than Mentor. One of the cons to Altium is the lack of standardization on mechanical layers. I haven't used Cadence much, but when I did it seemed like a lot of clicking to accomplish anything and you were always switching modes. Altium also has really good length tuning and use of accordians. I don't think Pads has auto tuning, just length matching rules.
Would you suggest switching from Fusion or Eagle to KiCAD? I am still a student so I have a student license for Fusion 360. I am worried if I'm not a student anymore I might not able to use Fusion anymore so I will eventually switch to other PCB CAD software. Eagle feels like Fusion and will be gone after 2 years (as of writing this comment).
I tried all the tools for simple to moderate designs. From my experience for small projects eagle and kicad and diptrace are fine in terms of price. For complex projects i would prefer Altium over cadence tools due to the fact from starting to final manufacturer output you can move smoothly with Altium. Whereas with cadence tool many simple things are too complicated with legacy UI. Most of time frustrating experience. Completely 80s UI and most of current generation designer certainly hate to work with Allegro.
Another important aspect I see skipped very often, is that a lot of people don't seem to understand that conext is very important. If you make one or two revisions per year you're not going to invest in expensive software. Or retraining a whole team of engineers can be very costly. So the software might be cheaper/free in the end it will cost you more. Having confidence in quality can also be an important factor. So working with new software can be problematic with confidence. Sometimes it is as simple that certain GUIs are just not your thing. Or are you working with a whole team or just one or two engineers? I agree that Altium is basically the standard. Btw have also a look at Diptrace, especially nice for small businesses. Feels a lot like the old Protel. For hobbyists EasyEda isn't bad either, much better GUI than KiCad. I am personally no fan of KiCad mostly because the GUI is extremely inconsistent.
"certain GUIs" ::cough:: Eagle before Autodesk ::cough:: seriously though, KiCad 5.x is more consistent than 4.x was, and improving that is apparently a priority.
So more of a question than an addition, how does EasyEDA fall into this on comparison with the mentioned software, usability, features, overall similarities? When I first started where I'm at, it was a smaller company that hadn't made the digital merge to our parent company, and couldn't access their system license for OrCAD. Since I was also the first and only electrical engineer at the smaller branch, fresh out of college, I started my designs in EasyEDA as it was free and many reviews compared it to other softwares such as OrCAD, but, mostly with the big online library, I could draw large component quantity boards really quickly, and thus get up and running really quickly. So, more to my question, will sticking with EasyEDA be more detrimental for my experience if I end up on a joint project with the engineers at my parent branch and have to switch to OrCAD, or will switching to OrCAD down the road be relatively seem less, minus a few functionality quirks? I also want to balance this with what I can use as a hobbyist outside of work, and EasyEDA has been my first pick there for the same reasons.
I think KiCAD is the future, so that is what you should learn. It will continue to grow and become more and more complete. There is no way that a software costing 10000$ can compete long term.
Surely companies will offer support for KiCAD if there is demand for it. However, in my experience, having worked in several companies, engineers rarely use the support the company pays for. Instead people use their own team mates for support. I guess because of the hassle of IPR and simplifying models, and remembering the support email etc. Just my two cents.
What about Proteus? I find Proteus very user friendly especially as you can link it to external component libraries. It's also very easy to generate custom components.Mentor is really on a completely different plane to the others, it's a huge powerful suite that originally ran on Unix systems. It was ported to Windows but I felt the Windows version didn't run as well, when I tried it. It's also horrendously expensive.
Layer switching, Gerber settings, Shape editing is better in Cadence. But it deals lot with paths, you need to have lot of paths set before starting. Tool customization can be done in Cadence using adw or project manger, Where you're not allowed to change anything and you are forced to follow process. It is not easy to learn on your own. Whereas Altium is quite simple to learn and costly. One can use Nexus if you're looking to follow process Cadence has lot of different license options whereas Altium may not have and Gerber viewer is simple in altium
Easy PC from Number One systems is a good solution as well. It also has a cheap ($227) add-in that imports Gerber files and allows complete editing (for all you "reverse engineer" types). At about $1000 for the program and the "Intelligent Gerber Import" it is affordable. Note that at one point in my career I had to make inductors and transformers with traces on a PCB. My employer at the time had Spent al LOT of money for 5 seats of Orcad, "Elevated" Support, and $10,000 / year for making any new parts we needed. After several conference calls with their engineers, they finally admitted that it was impossible: "just make some coils using straight short line segments, make and test the PCBs and repeat until it worked". Easy PC has a neat function to do this built in, just specify the width, spacing and turns, and it places the inductor on the PCB layout! I still had to use other tools to calculate the inductance, but it worked great! Made several PCBs possible. Note that this was done for inductive wireless power and other LC functions where there was no $ for an inductor. Also note, that since these were essentially "air core" inductors they could not saturate and were quite stable.
A totally different topic and which gives a perspective about what kind of CAD suites different companies use, enjoyed watching this video. The takeaway for me is that I got to know Apple uses cadence and also Altium & Cadence are the most popular software :)
Go for education package discount whenever you can. Heck, even a community class (if you are way past your university years) will set you up as a "student" for a couple of years for very little cost...
Mentor has PADS student version so it's possible to check and learn it for free. And Why don't use Circuit Maker for hobby project? It has similar interface to Altium so it's a plus :)
As for me, study Altium after EasyEDA turned out harder, because the EasyEDA looks like high level programming language against Altium which looks like an Assembler language, it is for my opinien.
Finlands seems to be "Mentor Country" All the large companies use Mentor PADS here and schools teach PADS. But it's changing to KiCAD in small companies and universities. Some startups also use Altium. Been Altium and Mentor PADS for me professionally. But we have had contractors who also used KiCAD and I know people who use KiCAD professionally for products.
What about making a video about altium different products? I know there are nexus, 356, circuitstudio, circuitmaker etc. I know its promotion and maybe even Altium could donate this.
In my very short career I've used eagle (now fusion), Altium and KiCAD. KiCAD is free and they try to push forward this tool. For me it seems to be the same story like with blender. I remember when I started with Blender in 2006, it was nice program for 3D modelling. Right now it is a strong competitor. Of course IMO CAD tools are much harder to develop, but KiCAD has great potential and great community.
Hi Robert, which software is best for programming simulation? altium is a good sftware but after designing a circuit and write down the the code , is there any software which can help me to see the direct simulation while changing the code. Thanks
Thank you Mohsen. I am not using Eagle, however I will be making a video about the software. I will have a call with Ben Jordan who used to work in Altium, now works in Autodesk to talk about their software.
I think it's worth considering what the goals are for the projects you are working on - do you just want to make and sell a product, or are you interested in sharing/open sourcing your design, for either educational purposes or to allow continued development when you are "finished" with it? If the latter, doing it in a package that costs thousands (or even hundreds) of dollars is not a good option as it severely limits access for people who may want to get involved but do not have the funding to buy into the tools. I used Eagle for years, tried KiCad on a couple of occasions but did not get on with it (circa v2 or v3). I did not want to be obliged to pay a subscription so I decided to move on from Eagle when AutoDesk bought it. I used Altium a bit and although I liked the software I found the customer support poor and the company was very unresponsive. At that point I tried KiCad again around the end of v4/just prior to v5 and the improvement was big enough that I gave up on Altium and donated my license money to KiCad, I'm very happy with the decision, and ironically considering the reason I decided to try it, I continue to donate regularly now. I totally get the concern over what the future of the project will look like but I feel very optimistic - it's worth watching the developer panel from this years KiCon to get an idea of what the short/medium term looks like for KiCad: th-cam.com/video/LGMpAEKGnvk/w-d-xo.html
I really tried Mentor circa 2006 and it just kept crashing *all* the time, not a good experience. Later Altium and loved it, every bit of it. Now using Kicad 6 and love it. Kicad isnt as good as Altium of course (not yet), but I'm basically hobby now and I can't afford Altium and Kicad feels pretty familiar.
Thank you for the informative video. But I have just one question, what's your opinion about fusion360? A small company advised me on PCB layout design because it has a reasonable price for buying a license.y Thank you.
Recently I tried KiCad and Fusion 360 Electronics as an alternative to Altium. KiCad is better of the two. However, F360 will be comparable in a year or two as it is actively being developed. One of the basic features that was lacking in F360 was defining a custom padstack.
Hello Robert , I want to know why you didn't include EAGLE in your review. I am designing a PCB board for a battery pack, and I am trying to decide if I should use EAGLE or Orcad.
What's interesting about such topic is that, just imagining a scenario, where like 20 companies instead of spending a huge amount of money buying licenses for the CAD, they fund the development of a free option (like KiCAD, for example), probably would be enough to make it a viable option. But nobody does that because it is a long term project. Blender was one of those projects that succeeded doing it, they created a fund system and many companies decided to invest in it. If such think could be applied in projects like FreeCAD and KiCAD, it would be awesome. What bothers me about the licensing model is that a company must spend a huge amount of money, but sometimes the software with stay idle. In the company I work for (a small company) we have an Altium license, and sometimes the software stays unused for more than a month, because we are doing other kinds of work (like programing firmware or software, or doing other kinds of research), so it feels like a waste of money.
Christian, I like this idea. Why it may be difficult is management - they would just need to give you money and not try to influence development. I imagine, that otherwise everybody would want different features and it could be very hard to agree on something. But, this really is a very nice idea. I do not think, a good PCB software needs so many features - Kicad is going the right direction, let's see how it goes in future.
@@RobertFeranec one of the ideas of such funding system is that the bigger donators can influence more the development, telling where the developers should invest more time of the development. It makes sense, it creates a kind of competition, and the bigger donator are rewarded with the resources they need the most. It is not an easy to manage system, but it is very promising. The bigger problem I see, is that a company that have a budged to invest in such software, needs something for today, not for the next year. And also have the fact that, as the software developed with that money will be free to everyone, including the competitors (that didn't spend a dime in the development) will be benefited. That's the part that makes me think that such funding system is very utopic.
Identity crisis. The design language for Altium is awesome but it's also super bloated and slow. Really digging the snappiness and flexibility of Allegro, but a lot of how it handles things feels kind of antiquated. Lots of file juggling. Eagle is a thing that exists. Haven't put a lot of time into kicad but it looks pretty solid.
Thank you PS: What SI tool do you mean in Altium? If simulations, Altium doesn't have good simulations (or at least didn't have when I was looking into it some time ago .. maybe it has changed?).
Yes, of course, this direction must develop! Altium is moving in this direction. Please note that they already have a Simberian engine in their composition. The development of SI on its basis is a matter of time.
I am seeing big companies like STMicroelectronics use Altium for schematics but use Allegro for PCB Layout in reference designs, How is it possible? So they are mixing together? How this works? I am very curious. Can they import schematics from Altium to Allegro and then do layout?
For me, AD is easier for team work. KiCad has a more open file format, which I can use python to create symbols quickly. KiCad has limitation on max 32 layers. Mentors has very slow pace on the features of software , so I gave up this.
Wonder what number of users need 32 layer designs... If there is any significant user requirement, KiCad will get it eventually. Wonder what a 32 layer board costs to make.
I am planning to make a video about it ... I hope Ben Jordan who used to work in Altium will help me to have a closer look into that .... He is now working in Autodesk
In the previous company, I work with Eagle. Long time we used v6.4 and later we shifted to the newest one with extended functionality. But the boards are usually audio stuff and not very sensitive. So lets say that enough for such projects - more or less they were small projects with at least 200components on board. It already couple of weeks from the time started with altium. I must say that after 2 confusing weeks finding functions I'm already in. It is professional SW, hence some stuff is doing extensive and something exhausting way instead of simple click like in eagle. On the other hand, interactive router and extensive settings is valuable. For hobby project, definitely, kicad/eagle. For big companies, both SWs (kicad/eagle) will be insufficient. As @robertferanec said at the very begging, it must fit you and your project.
I run a small R&D company. Couple of years ago we switched to KiCAD from Candece mostly because of licensing costs (adding more places required a lot more investment). Our first steps with KiCAD were hard, but now we can do almost anything. We are doing a lot of DDR3 and fine pitch FPGA routing in KiCAD quite easily. What we have not yet tried KiCAD for is RF (over 1GHz) design. Personally, now when I used to it, I like KiCAD much more than Cadence. I wish KiCAD gets faster development, more features have to be added and some GUI improved. I think I have to donate to KiCAD some $$. :)
Thank you very much Ruslan. Very interesting feedback.
@@RobertFeranec , you are welcome. I advise to check OrangeCrab open hardware project made by Greg from Australia, there's Lattice ECP5 with 0.4mm pitch csFBGA285 and DDR3 all routed on incredibly small PCB. Very good project to learn KiCAD capabilities.
I use KiCad daily for my professional work. Routing DDR3 memory right now. Will let you know the results.
I've only used KiCad for a small PCB project. Are you able to set up rules in KiCad like you would in altium? Differential/length matched/impedance controlled routing etc?
Please, let me know then. I am curious.
@@EricHelgesen1 Yes, you can setup rules for diff pairs for differential impedance matching, I have never used Altium so I don't know how it compares. Also there is a separate tool in KiCad that adds squiggles to tracks while doing single ended or differential length and skew matching.
@@EricHelgesen1 Yes you can define constrains, but not as versatile as in Altium or Cadence, yet sufficient for DDR3 routing to be done :)
@@EricHelgesen1 Also sufficient for DDR4. Either that, or I have been extremely lucky on the last 8 PCB's with DDR4 😊!
For hobbyists like me, I think the most important thing to consider is available component libraries. I find painful to draw a symbol and a footprint for every new component I use.
In this aspect, EasyEDA is a winner as it has a searchable online library tightly integrated with the LCSC store. However, I sometimes order bad PCBs because of wrong footprints so you should always check them.
All the major component distributors are contracting with one or another "universal" library companies to provide direct links from the ordering website to schematic symbols, PCB footprints, and 3D models. Presumably a distributor that doesn't have those links loses customers to some other distributor that does. However, as you pointed out, the quality of those libraries is often questionable. I find that almost always I end up redrawing the symbols and footprints, either because they are incorrect, or just poorly thought out layout of pins, or poor labeling of footprints. It suggests that either rather poor automation was used to generate the libraries, or a sweatshop type situation.
Easyeda steals your designs Be carefull ! Kicad for the win tho !
@@JasonLeaman That would be quite an achievement to have Chinese clones of my designs. ;-)
@@arnauddurand127 I suggest printing a 1:1 scale printout of the PCB onto paper. Lay SMD components onto the pads, and poke THT ones through the paper. It’s a cheap and easy way to check footprints.
@@JasonLeaman yeah, Chinese government absolutely requires those crappy atmega328 boards to take over the world
Well, even though KiCAD has been difficult to use, it's open source and free, and has been working fantastically for my projects. Sure KiCAD may not be the "best" but its a great piece of software for the hobbyist and laymem who don't want to pay lots of money for advanced PCB software.
Honestly, i don't actually see how KiCAD is difficult to use, I've been using it for ages, i think it's awesome and not just because it's Open Source and Free
dar simulatorul spice merge la tine ?la mine lipsesc librariile dar nu stiu cum sa le instalez si de unde sa le obtin..Eu am Linux-fedora
I tried Eagle a while ago and using KiCAD now is so much easier. My other electronic skills are the limit, not the tool at all.
In my company we did designed some complex boards using KiCad, but we recently we have migrated from KiCad to Altium becasue of 3D experience PLM/PDM software from dassault systems works with Altium. KiCad is nothing is less than any other software. It is the best software I have ever used till now. More importantly We use the same rules for the PCB design software.
For my personal I use KiCad ALWAYS. Thanks Feranec, your videos really helped me particularly altium topics.
I tried cadence, eagle, pads and finally, I tried Altium. Altium seemed very easy to learn and it can let you design complex boards easily, I'm sticking with Altium now. great video like always! well done :)
Thank you very much Mehdi
I feel like you are Tunisian, right ?? :D
i actually found pads easier
Hobbyist here : Diptrace. Very simple to use. Easy to learn. Freeware version enough for small projects.
I use Pulsonix as my main CAD, and I think it's a shame that hardly anyone considers this software! In my experience it is by far the most intuitive to use and perhaps even the most flexible: I like the really extensive customization that can be achieved. Every single aspect of the design can be customized... I bet anyone can learn how to use it in a day. One downside is the limited number of built-in libraries and the poor 3D view, but that's not a problem for me: I always design my custom libraries anyway, and I use external 3D design software.
I'd like to see a brief tryout of this CAD by Robert. I'm sure he would be impressed.
I have used Altium a lot (and sometimes even now). In my experience, I found myself googling for tutorials/guides for every single thing, especially during PCB layout... (luckily there is the Robert's Channel that has plenty of Altium tutorials! Tnx Robert!!!!) Also it's full of bugs! For me this is really unacceptable.
I've tried it, its not bad, Diptrace won by a little in the ease of use section, so I went with that, but that was a good 10 years ago.
I used Eagle three years ago, and I think it is best for beginners and then I moved to Altium after some months and it was great experience and I think I am in love with Altium 😅
Hi Robert, thanks for the video. As a suggestion, since you have experience in many tools, I would find very valuable to show specific features that are available on some EDA tool and lacking in others. For example I know Allegro can generate a rigid-flex pcb 3D model with flex sections bent in certain angles while kicad can not do that. Allegro can export ODB++ while kicad can't. A matrix of these would be very helpful. Kicad uses ascii working files and so you can do git version control while you can not do that with proprietary tools as far as I know. Kicad is working on a python scripting API, don't know if others have something similar.
Cadence allegro is best (28 years experience)a lot of software simulation tool but expensive.
Mentor expensive but it doesn't have all feature tools simulation (5 years experience )
Altium, a lot of bugs ( 5 years experience) , but cheap
Other are cheap tool and good for beginners ,
Personally I really like kicad, it doesn't have all the features of altium that I would like to use, but has some that altium doesn't and it's open source and supported in Linux natively. The good thing is that it keeps getting better with every version, you can see the progress.
I'm in my fourth year of electrical engineering and I've been following your Altium tutorials while doing my capstone project. It feels great knowing I'm learning something I can put on my resume. Thanks for all your help Robert!
On a side note I don't like the continual updates - as a new user I'm already overwhelmed, and I find myself getting tripped up by "bleeding edge" features. For instance, I tried to define Design Rules for the first time and was confused why the option wasn't showing, then I learned they added Constraint Manager feature (which was selected by default when I created my project). I had to re-create my project and transfer everything to get Design Rules so I could properly follow tutorials. There might be an easier way that I'm missing to change the formats, but you get the idea.
I have seen a number of people complaining about confusion around constraint manager
For hobbyist - EasyEDA :) However, it is so hard to switch to it from Altium even for the personal projects... May be one day, when I have no a company license available...
I have been using Altium for 1.5 year now, because the company I used to work at taught me that, and learned sooo many things, and the way to do it in Altium.
On the other hand I used KiCAD for like two projects. I feel like they are completely different, but I wouldn’t say KiCAD is for hobbyists only. Real life example: my university department is working on satellites. They made the first ever working 5x5x5 cm cubesat, and guess what? They designed it in KiCAD. If it is good enough for a satellite, I think it is good for so many projects. (Maybe other softwares could be better for the reasons you mentioned)
All in all, for me Altium is the most comfortable, since I learned most of the stuff through it. I think this question is like programming. Once you learn one of them, learning to use another one shouldn’t be that big deal.
Is it free?
@@muhammadhamzashahid9649 yes, KiCAD is free!
I tried Altium and I liked it. But whn I got my job in automotive company, I started using Cadence. If I could, I would never switch back to Altium, but probably I will have to someday. Cadence maybe has "vintage" user interface, but in comparison to Altium we have the same situation as when we compare Linux and Windows. OrCad is complex to learn, but has much more useful features than Altium. You can even write scripts in SKILL language to automate some exports or processess. I hope Altium gets some similar features in the feature since it has more user friendly interface and is still powerful PCB layout tool.
I started out as a hobbyist using KiCAD because it was free. Me and a friend are trying to see about starting up a company and we plan on me to continue using KiCAD for the beginning. Eventually if we are designing enough boards or complex boards we will switch to something like Altium.
I used Altium for a very long time, but I find the parts library and search a mess at so many levels. Moved to Kicad and I am finding 95% of the footprints in the standard library. Even if the controls aren't as intuitive and the UI isn't as nice, I can go from schematic to gerber in a couple hours. The same would've taken me 6 hours with Altium (designing THT footprints and standardizing hole sizes, etc.)
Surely it has its advantages, but for a hobbyist that wants a circuit quick without roadblocks, I recommend Kicad all day.
I need to give KiCad another try. While I like Altium a lot, footprints are a constant PITA, and it’s obviously far too expensive for home use. Right now I can use it through school, but that won’t last forever, and so I don’t want to use it for personal stuff, since I’d lose access to my own designs.
Has KiCad’s schematic editor learned to draw rectilinear lines? It drove me nuts that moving a component symbol would cause all its connections to turn into diagonal lines.
@@tookitogo Altium will sometimes make you a very good offer via a phone call, but cant talk about how much I paid. It was a very good deal though. At any rate, I feel they're really interested in making it the industry standard, but they're only interested in large companies who have engineers designing everything from scratch. So they'll never really update the library. That's my guess on it.
And got zero idea about that one. I never move a component, only move things in blocks. I usually give myself extra room and use lots of net labels as to not make the schematic look awful, and then i move the entire block to it's final place.
I agree, I am finding footprints more often in the standard library than I did in Altium. Kind of weird...but I guess this is where open-source collaboration wins over commercial idk
I was just waiting for that video. thank you sir you are my first PCB design teacher. Lot of respect.
Great comparison, I agree on few points like Altium GUI is easy and simple to learn, I have used both and I prefer Allegro, I have worked on different tools like Altium, Pads, Eagle, Cadstar, the main reason they are lagging as they have not improved over the time except Altium (but still have Bugs) In Allegro its a robust tool, Constraint manager, DFM and Team Design Option I love, Altium is good in term of GUI, mechanical 3D views, etc. but once it comes for handling complex board it is a challenge in Altium to setup all the constrains.
Being able to completely work offline with a perpetual license can be a very important requirement.
You did not mention this in your comparisons. But otherwise very informational video as usual!
I think they all have also offline licenses ... just it will depend also on your company setup e.g. if your projects are on company servers and what exactly they use.
I started with Eagle at school than tried Kicad for personal projects. I like both but I prefer Eagle for 3D view and enclosure design with Fusion 360. Now I want to do PCB layout design for a living so I have to choose between Cadence or Altium. Altium seems to have a great community. I sometimes listen to the "On Track" podcasts and learn a lot. I think I will go for Altium.
It would also be nice to mention why they use it. Is it the best or they just like the support? For example KiCad could have a better workflow & features, but they dont use it because they are afraid of having some weird or unsupported problem. OR are they just stuck in their methods?
Have used OrCAD at work and KiCAD for hobbyist stuff for about 5 years. The OrCAD learning curve is horrendous and there aren't a lot of good training tools out there (this channel being one of the few) but once you're up to speed on it it's impressive how 'right' the tool feels to use, in that you aren't running into as many weird quirks as you may get with KiCAD. I've played around with Altium Schematic but not layout, would love to try to do a large board in it
One of the best packages out there is Diptrace. This software really desserve to be more known. It's by far better than Eagle, Kicad, it has a better interaction model (mouse handling is absolutely intuitive), and has all the tools for manufacturability support. I never understood why it's not known in Europe despite the fact it's developed in Europe.
I have fond memories of DipTrace. I consider it to be the EASIEST low-end schematic entry and PCB layout software. I remember it as being the software in which all the basic stuff "just worked" straight from the super-slim software package. It was relatively cheap, too...
If you like to go with Altium, consider Solidworks PCB, which is basically a one year older Altium Designer, but also a few thousands cheaper. Some special features may be missing, like teardrop pads but all the rest is compatible with AD, like files and libraries. I worked on many projects with it and did not miss anything from the genuine Altium Designer.
Solidworks PCB look like Circuit Studio
@@piratesofbytes Yes it really looks like at the front end but it is not the same. Just compare the sizes between Circuits Studio setup ~500MB vs. Solidworks PCB >1GB. I checked the features of Altium Designer and I found almost anything in SW PCB as well like MCAD/ECAD support with direct STEP models link, realtime 2D/3D clearance checking, texture mapping of 2D and 3D models, extensive 2D/3D view configurations, hug and push traces, diff pairs, obstacle-ignore, design variants support, parts database support (ODBC for example), IPC footprint & case generation wizard which also generates nice 3D bodies and very important for us: it has an integrated version control system. The only thing I found so far that SW PCB does not support what AD does, is teardrop vias. But that is nothing we ever needed for something like vias in flex PCBs which should be avoided anyway.
@@stevesuprafluid2711 that sounds good,I will try it. thanks for the detailed description.
Thank you very for the video Robert,
In my professional life I have always used Altium, always found it quite easy to grasp and do designs. Now I moved to another company, they are using PADS. And I am totally frustrated how NOT user it is friendly and HARD it is to use. And I believe more expensive than Altium. At least I know that a work to be done in Altium would take less time than in PADS. And sadly I am sure that I would do mistakes in complex boards because there is less tools to proof your design. They say that PADS is more configurable and detailed. I am sceptical about that, but the fact is what is the point if you could not use the comfigurabily. I hope I could convince them to get a license for Altium. Otherwise the life would be very hard and unpleasant.
Engineers at my company all express HORROR at Mentor!!!
I first learned eagle because thats what my dad used and it's made me really annoyed about library management in the two cads i have used since then, those being orcad and kicad. I really like that eagle attaches the footprint or footprints to the schematic symbol. When you make the schematic symbol, you tell it what footprint or footprints it can use, and manually connect the pins. When you then move from the schematic to the pcb editor, it makes it a lot easier to figure out what fooprints can be used and you don't have to worry about pin number mismatches.
I have good experience with EasyEDA, simple to learn, some bugs, but no show stopper, but complete from design to Gerber output.
Agreed. EasyEDA is surprisingly good IMHO.
Back then, my university teach Mentor, while I am using Eagle 7.x for my own project, I completely hate the complexity in Mentor...
Now I've been using Altium for 3 years. It has a lot of bugs, the UI are a bit messy, but the situation are improved in recent version.
I have also used KiCad, which I think is better then Eagle. If you are just getting start, I recommend KiCad because it is simple.
I have never used KiCAD, but I think that if people pay attention to the development of KiCAD enough then eventually you will not need Altium, etc.
KiCAD is able to do what the other does. The only difference is that CADs we called "professional SW" are allowing us to do hard tasks more easily than Kicad does.
It does not mean that you cannot design a high-level Mainboard in Kicad , because they are all CAD software and they are all able to do the layout and generate Gerber.
I had contact with all these software that you had mentioned.
Because I started with Cadance when I am doing my diploma around 20 years back, followed by mentor graphics in my first job as the engineer assistant , thirdly, Altium and for KiCAD, I am still trying out.
After coming into contact with Altium, I feel that everything looks so much easier. Altium let you do everything from Schematic Capture to Berber in the same software, whereelse, for cadance and mentor, you will need to switch between different software in the package to get the job done. And when switching between different software, you have to be sure that your things are all correct. Else, if errors are being detected any the advance stage, you will cry, because you have to redo everything again.
Whatever it is, no matter what software you are using, the flow of the design are all the same, schematic capture, component and package selection, layout, and generating project output like gerber and BOM.
Altium is good if you are in a company that require you to do everything by yourself, while cadance and mentor is more suited for enterprise level whereby there is a CADCAM department dedicated to maintaining these tools.
Hi Robert, You have great videos, and this one is one of them. I'd like to know why you are questioning the future of KiCAD? I think that open source as well as the maker scene is booming due to the low manufacturing costs for prototypes, and this will fuel KiCAD's future. I however doubt that KiCAD will ever make it into large companies, due to the fact that it's free. But this is also speculation. Just look where Ubuntu is these days. Regards
More fool big companies. Read the small print on the user agreement on what rights you have to the resulting design (or don't have). Kicad does not have any user agreement, simply a software license that requires you to make the source code of any changes that you make to the SOFTWARE that you subsequently distribute, to the users of that software. All the OUTPUT of the software, and the included libraries, are entirely your own, you can do with them as you will, including selling them, or giving them away. Kicad makes no claim on them. There are no limitations on size or usage of the designs. The huge leap forward with Kicad was when CERN standardized on it for their designs, and paid developers to get it up to a standard suitable for CERN's designs.
Hello Mr. Robert. I am an electrical engineer and I want to learn Altium Designer. If possible, give me some tips on how to start learning? step by step? where to start? And how can I learn? Thank you!!👌
@Mr Guru Thank You Mr Guru. but what meaning Eagle?🤔
I'm on the hobbyist camp. Started with Eagle CAD, but due to limitation in board size for non-licensees (8 x 10 cm), switched to KiCad and never looked back. I have no experience with other CAD software, can't afford to pay several thousand dollars for a license, so very likely won't use them. Compared with Eagle I found KiCad more intuitive and easier to learn. Long live KiCad!
Nice video! A few things I thought about:
- as a beginner, you will spend more time learning how to design PCBs than how to use your software. So it doesn't matter as much.
- While KiCAD is free, if you're a company you might want to get a support contract from one of the companies to have your bugs and feature requests prioritized, get training etc.
Thank you. PS: I would also add to the first point: I always consider what software to learn as it is huge time investment. So I want to be sure that I learn something what I can use also when my projects will grow, get more complex and complicated.
@@RobertFeranec I agree, however I've found that that basic skills are much faster to relearn in a new software than advanced skills. So for me, I like considering not just the time investment, but how transferable that investment will be.
I used to use PADS (Mentor) and love it but have been using Eagle for 20 years now. It got better and better and works fine for us. However, I stop at version 6 because anything newer is subscription only and I do not do subscription if at all possible
Nice video. The more expensive software packages can do more complex tasks like DDR routing, via fields and stitching for RF that you would otherwise have to do manually. If you are going to simulate your design you want to make sure it can import/export to your other software without problems. For example, Kicad can export to Hyperlinx, but the same Hyperlinx file doesn't get imported to CST properly (missing vias). And often some schematic netlists cannot be exported across other platforms. If your software can run scripts that may help in the conversion process.
I'm a long time KiCad user. Although only as a hobby, I've done a lot of projects, audio, power electronics, digital. I can do a project really quickly and the biggest advantage is that it's free and it works on linux.
I would try Altium but I'm not paying $3000 for it. And it's only Windows based.
That's two fatal disadvantages...
Robert, many thanks for your comprehensive recommendations! Perfect for me to choose the right software for me. BR Klaus
Since I don't have any experience with the others, KiCad is obviously the best!! ;)
I have used the free version of EAGLE for a long time. But Autodesk making Eagle "rent-a-program", needing an account and internet connection, drove me to look at KiCad. I got used to it (every program has its quirks) and use it exclusively. It currently looks like my electronics hobby is growing into a job, so I might check out "professional" programs soon. But Eagle is definitely out of the question for that. I will never base my livelihood on a program where my work depends on the whim of a company of keeping some license server active.
It would be nice to add the cost of each for 1 person ("seat") and 5 seats, along with annual maintenance costs. The reason is that this information is not available on the web or from these companies. They insist on the BS of having a salesperson or rep firm assess your "needs" and provide a complicated "quote".
Any time a big company pulls those sorts of shenanigans, its a huge turn-off for me. Yes, even if I am actually willing to spend real money on the sort of product they sell. Maybe I just have a strong aversion to anything that involves their sales rep schmoozing with my purchasing rep when I technically have neither and would rather they just shut up and take my money.
I use easyEDA and Iv started to make more PCBs for work so switched to kiCad, ended up going back to easyEDA due to the hierarchical Schematic in kiCad. I just want multi page schematics. EasyEDA is ok but wish it had more support for 3D model files (import STEP files) and been caught out by library foot print change without me knowing. (10 prototypes were Ok, went to order 1000 pcbs and the only change I made was the silk screen, this imported a updated footprint without me knowing and cause so much pain for me to fix) after that I make my own footprints and library’s so I’m in complete control. That was the main reason why I tried kiCad
Hi, every time I watch your videos I learn a new thing.
I hope one day you talk about differential lines and how to simulated, specilly in how to accomplish the required impedance for any length.
Best Regards
Where i work we use Altium and i've very happy with it. Some things can be improved, but each new version brings some improvements, so i see it going in good directions in the future.
For 1 project we were working for an outside company and we needed to integrate in their environment and use Eagle. I had used Eagle back when i was in uni, and while it has gotten a lot better since then, its almost useless compared to professional software. I've heard great things about KiCAD from colleagues that use it for personal stuff.
I wouldn't necessarily use the best software. I would take the software with the least resistance and the widest distribution. That is currently Altium.
@@mattmurphy7030 it's only once I think 5k and than every year 1-2k for updates if you want...
For my powerlectronics, with various creepage and clearance rules and 3D CAD integration Altium showed best performance price ratio😊
isn't that ratio infinite for kicad?
@@cocotug0 without added labour time due to missing features, yes
There's also #3Eagle Autodesk, I understood it's right after #1Allegro and #2Altium in that order.
What's your most favour PCB CAD softwares?
Indeed the most used PCB CAD softwares in the PCB industry are Allegro and Altium and it's usually the 2 options both or one of them mainly Allegro in jobs posts.
Sohail Ahmed Zia, Designing in Domestic Solar Power Electronics.
PCB designing begins with schematic capture, for me the best software is the one which has 1. Best connection integrity in schematics, 2. Knows, what is needed next to save time.
I learned orcad up to 10.5 but could not continue as could not purchase, obviously the looks of KiCad are of a professional software, but have anyone tried to move a part/component after making connections, does connections follow? I tried almost all free softwares and found that DesignSpark PCB Software - RS Components suits me as it tries it's best to prevent me from making a mistake and mingling connections. I am a beginner with DS PCB, just building my library for components (it is usually a necessity where I live); while designing, and yet have to complete the process for the first PCB, so can not claim my comments for its Layout.
Kind Regards.
With Kicad approaching 9.X and all the other proposals in the comment field, it might be interesting to revisit this comparison @Robert?
If you don't look at the price then Mentor Expedition (I've worked with it for 20 years). The best quality / price ratio is Altium Design (another 15 years with it).
We started with Eagle then graduated to Altium.
Will have to try Cadence and your comments on the company pretty much killed any chance of us considering Mentor
Dont go for Mentor. Been using it on our company for 4 years now. Allegro is way better in my experience(14yrs) than Mentor.
@@stanleyayochok Yeah. PADS/Mentor is complex, kludgey and annoying to use. On top of it being expensive.
Thanks youuuu i was confused but now you clarify everything
Mentor Pads Standard Plus (not Expedition) feels like it was just a bunch of separate programs stitched together. Layout and Router are separate applications that you have to switch back and forth. Altium on the other hand has everything integrated. Pads isn't bad, there are pros and cons to each, but the scripting in Altium is an order of magnitude better than Mentor. The object snapping is a lot better in Altium than Mentor. One of the cons to Altium is the lack of standardization on mechanical layers. I haven't used Cadence much, but when I did it seemed like a lot of clicking to accomplish anything and you were always switching modes. Altium also has really good length tuning and use of accordians. I don't think Pads has auto tuning, just length matching rules.
Would you suggest switching from Fusion or Eagle to KiCAD? I am still a student so I have a student license for Fusion 360. I am worried if I'm not a student anymore I might not able to use Fusion anymore so I will eventually switch to other PCB CAD software. Eagle feels like Fusion and will be gone after 2 years (as of writing this comment).
I tried all the tools for simple to moderate designs. From my experience for small projects eagle and kicad and diptrace are fine in terms of price. For complex projects i would prefer Altium over cadence tools due to the fact from starting to final manufacturer output you can move smoothly with Altium. Whereas with cadence tool many simple things are too complicated with legacy UI. Most of time frustrating experience. Completely 80s UI and most of current generation designer certainly hate to work with Allegro.
Another important aspect I see skipped very often, is that a lot of people don't seem to understand that conext is very important. If you make one or two revisions per year you're not going to invest in expensive software. Or retraining a whole team of engineers can be very costly. So the software might be cheaper/free in the end it will cost you more. Having confidence in quality can also be an important factor. So working with new software can be problematic with confidence.
Sometimes it is as simple that certain GUIs are just not your thing. Or are you working with a whole team or just one or two engineers?
I agree that Altium is basically the standard.
Btw have also a look at Diptrace, especially nice for small businesses. Feels a lot like the old Protel. For hobbyists EasyEda isn't bad either, much better GUI than KiCad.
I am personally no fan of KiCad mostly because the GUI is extremely inconsistent.
Thank you very much P_Mouse for nice feedback.
"certain GUIs" ::cough:: Eagle before Autodesk ::cough:: seriously though, KiCad 5.x is more consistent than 4.x was, and improving that is apparently a priority.
So more of a question than an addition, how does EasyEDA fall into this on comparison with the mentioned software, usability, features, overall similarities? When I first started where I'm at, it was a smaller company that hadn't made the digital merge to our parent company, and couldn't access their system license for OrCAD. Since I was also the first and only electrical engineer at the smaller branch, fresh out of college, I started my designs in EasyEDA as it was free and many reviews compared it to other softwares such as OrCAD, but, mostly with the big online library, I could draw large component quantity boards really quickly, and thus get up and running really quickly. So, more to my question, will sticking with EasyEDA be more detrimental for my experience if I end up on a joint project with the engineers at my parent branch and have to switch to OrCAD, or will switching to OrCAD down the road be relatively seem less, minus a few functionality quirks? I also want to balance this with what I can use as a hobbyist outside of work, and EasyEDA has been my first pick there for the same reasons.
My Way: PCAD4.5->PCAD8->AccelEDA->Pcad2002->PCAD2006->AltiumDesigner, But now i've work in the Cadence (for my company). For My hobb i've use KiCad.
I think KiCAD is the future, so that is what you should learn. It will continue to grow and become more and more complete. There is no way that a software costing 10000$ can compete long term.
companies also value and will pay for support. Hows the support for KiCAD.. oh..
Surely companies will offer support for KiCAD if there is demand for it. However, in my experience, having worked in several companies, engineers rarely use the support the company pays for. Instead people use their own team mates for support. I guess because of the hassle of IPR and simplifying models, and remembering the support email etc. Just my two cents.
Cost / revenue will win for 90%+ of your audience, I am guessing.
Thanks man. Very clear. Very direct. Thanks again.
What about Proteus? I find Proteus very user friendly especially as you can link it to external component libraries. It's also very easy to generate custom components.Mentor is really on a completely different plane to the others, it's a huge powerful suite that originally ran on Unix systems. It was ported to Windows but I felt the Windows version didn't run as well, when I tried it. It's also horrendously expensive.
Layer switching, Gerber settings, Shape editing is better in Cadence.
But it deals lot with paths, you need to have lot of paths set before starting.
Tool customization can be done in Cadence using adw or project manger, Where you're not allowed to change anything and you are forced to follow process.
It is not easy to learn on your own.
Whereas Altium is quite simple to learn and costly. One can use Nexus if you're looking to follow process
Cadence has lot of different license options whereas Altium may not have and Gerber viewer is simple in altium
Easy PC from Number One systems is a good solution as well. It also has a cheap ($227) add-in that imports Gerber files and allows complete editing (for all you "reverse engineer" types). At about $1000 for the program and the "Intelligent Gerber Import" it is affordable.
Note that at one point in my career I had to make inductors and transformers with traces on a PCB. My employer at the time had Spent al LOT of money for 5 seats of Orcad, "Elevated" Support, and $10,000 / year for making any new parts we needed. After several conference calls with their engineers, they finally admitted that it was impossible: "just make some coils using straight short line segments, make and test the PCBs and repeat until it worked".
Easy PC has a neat function to do this built in, just specify the width, spacing and turns, and it places the inductor on the PCB layout! I still had to use other tools to calculate the inductance, but it worked great! Made several PCBs possible. Note that this was done for inductive wireless power and other LC functions where there was no $ for an inductor. Also note, that since these were essentially "air core" inductors they could not saturate and were quite stable.
Cheap is relative. :) Very very hard to beat free. And doubly hard to beat, completely no issue in distributing your work as you like.
A totally different topic and which gives a perspective about what kind of CAD suites different companies use, enjoyed watching this video. The takeaway for me is that I got to know Apple uses cadence and also Altium & Cadence are the most popular software :)
Go for education package discount whenever you can. Heck, even a community class (if you are way past your university years) will set you up as a "student" for a couple of years for very little cost...
Mentor has PADS student version so it's possible to check and learn it for free. And Why don't use Circuit Maker for hobby project? It has similar interface to Altium so it's a plus :)
As for me, study Altium after EasyEDA turned out harder, because the EasyEDA looks like high level programming language against Altium which looks like an Assembler language, it is for my opinien.
Really good summary, thorough and informative analysis.
Finlands seems to be "Mentor Country" All the large companies use Mentor PADS here and schools teach PADS. But it's changing to KiCAD in small companies and universities. Some startups also use Altium.
Been Altium and Mentor PADS for me professionally.
But we have had contractors who also used KiCAD and I know people who use KiCAD professionally for products.
What about making a video about altium different products? I know there are nexus, 356, circuitstudio, circuitmaker etc. I know its promotion and maybe even Altium could donate this.
How does Proteus compare to these? I'm just starting off so would like to master one before i try others.
good video Robert. I am little surprised that there is no mentioning of EAGLE cad :D :D
In my very short career I've used eagle (now fusion), Altium and KiCAD. KiCAD is free and they try to push forward this tool. For me it seems to be the same story like with blender. I remember when I started with Blender in 2006, it was nice program for 3D modelling. Right now it is a strong competitor.
Of course IMO CAD tools are much harder to develop, but KiCAD has great potential and great community.
Hi Robert, which software is best for programming simulation? altium is a good sftware but after designing a circuit and write down the the code , is there any software which can help me to see the direct simulation while changing the code. Thanks
Dear Robert, Thanks for your great videos.
In this topic, what is your opinion about Eagle software?
Thank you Mohsen. I am not using Eagle, however I will be making a video about the software. I will have a call with Ben Jordan who used to work in Altium, now works in Autodesk to talk about their software.
@@RobertFeranec Thanks, Robert. I really love your channel and I learn many things from you. Good job man!
I think it's worth considering what the goals are for the projects you are working on - do you just want to make and sell a product, or are you interested in sharing/open sourcing your design, for either educational purposes or to allow continued development when you are "finished" with it? If the latter, doing it in a package that costs thousands (or even hundreds) of dollars is not a good option as it severely limits access for people who may want to get involved but do not have the funding to buy into the tools.
I used Eagle for years, tried KiCad on a couple of occasions but did not get on with it (circa v2 or v3). I did not want to be obliged to pay a subscription so I decided to move on from Eagle when AutoDesk bought it. I used Altium a bit and although I liked the software I found the customer support poor and the company was very unresponsive. At that point I tried KiCad again around the end of v4/just prior to v5 and the improvement was big enough that I gave up on Altium and donated my license money to KiCad, I'm very happy with the decision, and ironically considering the reason I decided to try it, I continue to donate regularly now. I totally get the concern over what the future of the project will look like but I feel very optimistic - it's worth watching the developer panel from this years KiCon to get an idea of what the short/medium term looks like for KiCad: th-cam.com/video/LGMpAEKGnvk/w-d-xo.html
I have used Altium designer for work , but I am going to use Kicad for my Hobby.
to which company do i send my gerber file to get my designed board? Do they stick the chips/elements on it?
I really tried Mentor circa 2006 and it just kept crashing *all* the time, not a good experience. Later Altium and loved it, every bit of it. Now using Kicad 6 and love it. Kicad isnt as good as Altium of course (not yet), but I'm basically hobby now and I can't afford Altium and Kicad feels pretty familiar.
Thank you for the informative video. But I have just one question, what's your opinion about fusion360? A small company advised me on PCB layout design because it has a reasonable price for buying a license.y
Thank you.
Recently I tried KiCad and Fusion 360 Electronics as an alternative to Altium. KiCad is better of the two. However, F360 will be comparable in a year or two as it is actively being developed.
One of the basic features that was lacking in F360 was defining a custom padstack.
Hello Robert , I want to know why you didn't include EAGLE in your review. I am designing a PCB board for a battery pack, and I am trying to decide if I should use EAGLE or Orcad.
If it were me and I was starting now, I'd use Kicad. Long term it will probably be your best bet.
Orcad currently is offering like 80% discount at the moment for perpetual license. For anyone interested.
Ti Ref design CAD files are all in AD, replacing allegro.
?
@@madcarrott6176 he said: Texas Instruments’ reference design CAD files are now in Altium Designer.
The best thing about KiCAD and other free software is that you have the option to contribute to it as well
Which software provides the best upgrade path from easyeda in case you may need to create something more sophisticated?
Now with the release of Kicad 6.0, I think it can now be considered for hobby/small-medium companies.
A little behind the times. I'm using Kicad 8.0.3 and about to upgrade to 8.0.5.
Hi! Which one is better for those who are beginning, Diptrace or Kicad? Even intending to use in future profissional.
DipTrace hands down. It is better in every respect expect price. If free version is sufficient for you, then still DipTrace.
I use Altium its really handy and almost all companies in Iran use it
Greetings from Pakistan
Thanks sir for giving valuable information 😊😊 I will try kicad
What's interesting about such topic is that, just imagining a scenario, where like 20 companies instead of spending a huge amount of money buying licenses for the CAD, they fund the development of a free option (like KiCAD, for example), probably would be enough to make it a viable option. But nobody does that because it is a long term project. Blender was one of those projects that succeeded doing it, they created a fund system and many companies decided to invest in it. If such think could be applied in projects like FreeCAD and KiCAD, it would be awesome. What bothers me about the licensing model is that a company must spend a huge amount of money, but sometimes the software with stay idle. In the company I work for (a small company) we have an Altium license, and sometimes the software stays unused for more than a month, because we are doing other kinds of work (like programing firmware or software, or doing other kinds of research), so it feels like a waste of money.
Christian, I like this idea. Why it may be difficult is management - they would just need to give you money and not try to influence development. I imagine, that otherwise everybody would want different features and it could be very hard to agree on something. But, this really is a very nice idea. I do not think, a good PCB software needs so many features - Kicad is going the right direction, let's see how it goes in future.
@@RobertFeranec one of the ideas of such funding system is that the bigger donators can influence more the development, telling where the developers should invest more time of the development. It makes sense, it creates a kind of competition, and the bigger donator are rewarded with the resources they need the most. It is not an easy to manage system, but it is very promising. The bigger problem I see, is that a company that have a budged to invest in such software, needs something for today, not for the next year. And also have the fact that, as the software developed with that money will be free to everyone, including the competitors (that didn't spend a dime in the development) will be benefited. That's the part that makes me think that such funding system is very utopic.
This is a commonly used method. in cad softwares its rare. But these softwares are already great. :)
They would all fight each other to death on decisions!!!
Identity crisis.
The design language for Altium is awesome but it's also super bloated and slow. Really digging the snappiness and flexibility of Allegro, but a lot of how it handles things feels kind of antiquated. Lots of file juggling. Eagle is a thing that exists. Haven't put a lot of time into kicad but it looks pretty solid.
Luckily we have guy who used them all on youtube.
Thanks! :D
Do you think SI tool should be improved in Altium?
Thank you PS: What SI tool do you mean in Altium? If simulations, Altium doesn't have good simulations (or at least didn't have when I was looking into it some time ago .. maybe it has changed?).
Yes, of course, this direction must develop! Altium is moving in this direction. Please note that they already have a Simberian engine in their composition. The development of SI on its basis is a matter of time.
I am seeing big companies like STMicroelectronics use Altium for schematics but use Allegro for PCB Layout in reference designs, How is it possible? So they are mixing together? How this works?
I am very curious. Can they import schematics from Altium to Allegro and then do layout?
For me,
AD is easier for team work.
KiCad has a more open file format, which I can use python to create symbols quickly. KiCad has limitation on max 32 layers.
Mentors has very slow pace on the features of software , so I gave up this.
Wonder what number of users need 32 layer designs... If there is any significant user requirement, KiCad will get it eventually. Wonder what a 32 layer board costs to make.
Thank you so much, very valuable informations !!!!
Robert, no mention of Fusion 360 ???
I am planning to make a video about it ... I hope Ben Jordan who used to work in Altium will help me to have a closer look into that .... He is now working in Autodesk
we used to apply EAGLE for a upto 2GHZ high speed communication FPGA system, now transfer to KICAD
In the previous company, I work with Eagle. Long time we used v6.4 and later we shifted to the newest one with extended functionality. But the boards are usually audio stuff and not very sensitive. So lets say that enough for such projects - more or less they were small projects with at least 200components on board.
It already couple of weeks from the time started with altium. I must say that after 2 confusing weeks finding functions I'm already in. It is professional SW, hence some stuff is doing extensive and something exhausting way instead of simple click like in eagle. On the other hand, interactive router and extensive settings is valuable. For hobby project, definitely, kicad/eagle. For big companies, both SWs (kicad/eagle) will be insufficient.
As @robertferanec said at the very begging, it must fit you and your project.