Important note: I mentioned in the video that there are several sources of OAA with different prices. Looking more closely, I see that the commercially available products use the same source for OAA, and appear to have similar costs. They generally would cost $650USD per month. Cost will obviously be a significant barrier for many or most people considering this potential treatment. - Jarred Younger
@@mattp5305three of the author’s are from the Bateman Horne Center, which was a clinical site (where it so happens that I’ve preciously been a subject and am a patient). I trust them completely, but the idk how much they would have had to do with the data analysis, which is one area in which errors can creep in.
🎄Merry Christmas Dr Younger & a very Happy New 🥳🌠Thanks for all your Brilliant videos & ongoing Research studies to continually help us ALL😊Only wish I'd been well enough to see all your vids😢as I'll never be able to catch up🎄🌠😊
Thank you for the clarification, do you have some large discount? It's 499$ for 90*500mg, so it's 22.2$ per day for 2000mg, 666$ per month for 2000mg. But my math is slow because of my me/cfs😅 I think I found where the price math mistake comes from, their marketing for the benagene brand is misleading as 250mg on the front label when on the back label it states only 100mg OAA and 150mg vit C, same in jubilance its 100mg OAA+ 150mg vit C so you will need 20 capsules to get the 2000 dose with the subscription discount is 840$ a month, the 500mg for cfs is cheaper for the high doses.
Thank you Dr Younger. Your time and efforts are greatly appreciated. Wishing you a wonderful Christmas. I hope you get a chance to rest up, and to have some fun. All the best ☺🌲🎁🎄
Really interesting! There was a company that once had a supplement energy bundle with oxaloacetate lozenges, liposomal glutathione, liposomosal PQQ and CoQ10. I purchased it and noticed a big difference in my brain fatigue and fog. Unfortunately the company stopped selling OAA. It was never as high as these dosages. I will have to check out the supplement further. Any reduction in fatigue is helpful!! Thank you for sharing. Happy Holidays!
Looking at the graphs, it seems the responders (40%) got significant to large benefits, while the rest (60%) got almost no, or no benefit. So, to Dr Younger’s point - it would be interesting to try to understand why the responders responded, and the others didn’t. They note in the paper that there will be further analysis on this. At this stage, it seems like it is a coin toss as to whether benefits might be attained from taking this. Need more evidence!
Thanks for this video, it sounds like OAA could be useful. Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to you and yours, Dr Younger. I hope you get some time off. Thanks for posting all your videos in 2024, it’s been so interesting and uplifting to know a little of what’s going on. Love from the UK 🇬🇧
What other OAA are there? I didnt find any except for the terra biological one that has 3 brands in different doses(jubilance, benagene, OAA CFS) the highest dose there is 500mg and it's 500$ for a bottle of 90 capsules, it's about 670$ a month for 2000mg! in the first trial they went up to 3000mg, this supplement price is unreal.
I looked into the commercially available products and I agree with your observation that they use the same OAA source, and the prices look identical. So there does appear to be only one source specifically made for human consumption. I will pin a comment to correct that error in my video and to mention the issue of significant cost. Thanks - Jarred Younger
Thank you for that info as im not up to date with anything ,nor have a Dr now looking after me,passed away 😢😢I'll look into it,although Ive reacted to EVERYTHING ive ever been trialled on so be interested in any/all side effects if ever you do video on that.Im not well enough to read the Paper.Thanks Dr Younger you're Amazing & Always give hope.😊
If you are going to purchase OAA to try - please please check the back of the bottle as some contain VITAMIN C as part of the total mgs of OAA which is misleading (benegene do this on the 250mg tablets). You are not getting 250mg OAA, only 100mg plus 150mg of vitamin C. 250mg is stated on the front of the bottle which is misleading. The 500mg cfs tablets are actually just 500mg OAA from benegene I believe.
It's the same company just different brands for marketing to different diagnoses, the 500mg for me/cfs doesnt have vit c and there is also one for PMS called jubilance. benagene is a general one marketed for antiaging and as an antioxidant and their label is really misleading you are right.
Thanks. I just saw this from another comment. I made the mistake doing calculations based on the 250mg stated on the front of one of the product bottles, not realizing most of that is Vitamin C. The CFS product seems to not have anything other than OAA. But it makes the cost even higher than I originally estimated -- around $650 a month. - Jarred Younger
The rice flour might be playing a role in causing people to drop out. Rice flour causes me significant gut problems, to the point that I can't take any supplements that contain it. Maybe I'm not the only one?
I was thinking about that too. The active capsules would have little to no rice flour filler, and the placebo would have about 2 grams of rice flour per day. Maybe that is enough to cause stomach upset (it would be helpful to see the complaints of those dropping out of the placebo arm). I've never used rice flour in my placebo capsules. The microcrystalline cellulose filler has worked well for us in ME/CFS and fibromyalgia studies. - Jarred Younger
You're asking the same questions I am! :-) I would like to know if full effects are seen in, for example, one month. And what happens if someone stops taking the capsules at 3 months versus keeps taking them. The research team will hopefully release info like that. - Jarred Younger
@youngerlab thank you for your response. I really appreciate you and the other researchers studying this illness. It is an incredibly cruel disease that has taken almost everything I have worked so hard for in my life. I know there are millions of us desperate for some kind of effective treatment. Nothing I have tried has worked, including IVIG and many medications/supplements. We are so apprective of your work. Thank you and have a happy new year.
If these companies that produce this Oxalocetate really knew what CFS is, had it, they would open a non-profit to get this to as many CFS sufferers as possible.
How much would the results of this study be affected by the possibility of subtypes of MECFS? So the responders would be a subtype, and for them this treatment is a really good option. It seems like this is a good example of of a treatment working really well for a subgroup, but overall it wouldn’t meet the standard for approval as a treatment?
Yes I think that is exactly the critical question. I think OAA and related blood tests is the place to start. But if it were being reviewed by the FDA in a large clinical trial, 40% success is usually enough for success (assuming there aren't people who get substantially worse on the treatment). - Jarred Younger
Biostatistician, here. What is the CI for the effect size, i.e., difference between arms, which appears to be about 17%, arithmetically (not the individual point estimates for each arm)? Also, p values are declared statistically significant based on the alpha level selected as part of the design of the study, and the p is a probability, specifically the probability, under the assumption that the null hypothesis is true (and the null here is that there is no difference between arms, which the study would like obviously to be able to reject with the evidence from the study), that we would see the difference between arms of this size, or larger, under hypothetically conducted repeated randomized trials run (over and over) exactly like this one. Of course this RCT is only conducted once but statistical science (probability distribution functions) knows how likely our result is from all hypothetically possible results of this same trial, and that is what our probability is. So for me, as a biostatistician, I look at the effect size to see if it is compelling clinically (does it make a difference to the patient, and compared to other treatments, etc.), and the actual p value. The p value in this study indicates that the is result is quite unlikely (a bit more than 1 in 20 chance) assuming that there is no difference between arms. Hence, since this result is so unlikely assuming no effect, we reject our initial assumption of no difference between arms in favor of the alternative (hypothesis) that the difference is real--even, for me--if it does not technically achieve statistical significance by being p less than or equal to 0.05. This is an evocative study and should be followed by a larger one soon (my son has ME/CFS). I am a bit concerned about loss to follow up and would like to see the reasons for drop out from each arm to begin to understand whether the attrition is systematic (caused by something important) or not. My sincere apologies for the long post! Am open to questions if anyone has interest.
Thanks! I agree with the idea of focusing on effect size over p-value, and the concern about the loss to follow up. It is a larger than expected loss in the placebo group. It might make sense if the drop outs were due to unwillingness to attend the lab visits due to lack of perceived efficacy, but it would be good to confirm that is the case. - Jarred Younger
Terra Biological claims to have cracked the nut on making a stabilized OAA. That seems to be one of the pitfalls of just grabbing a bottle labeled OAA.
Thanks again! The price and the conflicts of interest worry me. I hope they publish some bloodtest data. And if it helps 40% then an attempt at finding what cluster benefits would also be very useful.
Is this something I can take along with LDN? (LDN doesn't help as much as it did the first few years. I"m on 6mg and that's as high as my doctor will prescribe.)
If you take out the high responders (40%), the average improvement is about 10-15%? So would you conclude that for 60% of the people on the trial, the improvements are not especially significant? Or is that a flawed conclusion?
A probably related question is how long the subjects had been ill. Dr. Bateman has said that those of us who have been sick for up to 5 years are more likely to show improvement. So if someone does a larger follow-up study of OAA, it would be great if they could break down response by time sick with me/cfs - it may be that the 40% of enhanced responders who got 63% less fatigue actually are people who’ve had me/cfs for 5 years or less. That would help patients decide whether to spend $670/month to try OAA.
"Oxaloacetate (3-carboxy-3-oxopropanoic acid, OAA) is a natural chemical that participates in Krebs cycle and acts as a glutamate scavenge. It is found in blueberries, blackberries, tangerines and plums, and in vegetables as spinach, beets and quinoa"
Be careful with oxalates. They can damage the kidneys. Boil or even better, ferment the vegs before consuming. Which begs the question as to the high dose used in the clinical trial in terms of kidney function changes. 🤔
I felt really unwell after taking a low dose of OAA (500mg) for just a few days. Any idea why? Was any follow up done on the participants who dropped out of the study?
I hope the company can get the price down somehow to something accessible to more people. That, or demonstrate that smaller dosages also work. To my knowledge, all the research on developing this product was done without federal funding - just private funding. - Jarred Younger
I know of a repeated failures of the use of RCT, including a triple-blinded study, during a single research topic done by world-class research universities. Open label studies are as legitimate as RCT.
I have wondered if I might have this, but my symptoms have too many correlations to people in my environment and their subversive behaviors connected to depletions of my resources outside of my physical body as well as depletions of my physical bodys strength, health, energy. So i just figured im surrounded by body snatching vampires.
Important note: I mentioned in the video that there are several sources of OAA with different prices. Looking more closely, I see that the commercially available products use the same source for OAA, and appear to have similar costs. They generally would cost $650USD per month. Cost will obviously be a significant barrier for many or most people considering this potential treatment. - Jarred Younger
So, the lead author's company is currently the only commercially available source of the supplement being studied? 🚩🚩🚩🚩
Yes, but the other study authors are independent, so I think that largely addresses bias? Would be interested i Dr Younger’s opinion
@@mattp5305three of the author’s are from the Bateman Horne Center, which was a clinical site (where it so happens that I’ve preciously been a subject and am a patient). I trust them completely, but the idk how much they would have had to do with the data analysis, which is one area in which errors can creep in.
🎄Merry Christmas Dr Younger & a very Happy New 🥳🌠Thanks for all your Brilliant videos & ongoing Research studies to continually help us ALL😊Only wish I'd been well enough to see all your vids😢as I'll never be able to catch up🎄🌠😊
Thank you for the clarification, do you have some large discount?
It's 499$ for 90*500mg, so it's 22.2$ per day for 2000mg, 666$ per month for 2000mg.
But my math is slow because of my me/cfs😅
I think I found where the price math mistake comes from, their marketing for the benagene brand is misleading as 250mg on the front label when on the back label it states only 100mg OAA and 150mg vit C, same in jubilance its 100mg OAA+ 150mg vit C
so you will need 20 capsules to get the 2000 dose with the subscription discount is 840$ a month, the 500mg for cfs is cheaper for the high doses.
Thank you for reporting on this study.
Thank you, Happy Holidays!
Thank you Dr Younger. Your time and efforts are greatly appreciated.
Wishing you a wonderful Christmas. I hope you get a chance to rest up, and to have some fun.
All the best ☺🌲🎁🎄
Really interesting! There was a company that once had a supplement energy bundle with oxaloacetate lozenges, liposomal glutathione, liposomosal PQQ and CoQ10. I purchased it and noticed a big difference in my brain fatigue and fog. Unfortunately the company stopped selling OAA. It was never as high as these dosages. I will have to check out the supplement further. Any reduction in fatigue is helpful!! Thank you for sharing. Happy Holidays!
Tu.. will check this too.. its$$$to buy all these separately! 💞🙏🎄
Thank you Dr Younger for your commitment to this work. I enjoy your videos. It's meaningful to us. May God bless you ❤
Love your Videos !
Thanks for a great review
thank you dr younger. my daughter and i, like so many others, really need help.
Looking at the graphs, it seems the responders (40%) got significant to large benefits, while the rest (60%) got almost no, or no benefit. So, to Dr Younger’s point - it would be interesting to try to understand why the responders responded, and the others didn’t. They note in the paper that there will be further analysis on this.
At this stage, it seems like it is a coin toss as to whether benefits might be attained from taking this. Need more evidence!
Thanks for this video, it sounds like OAA could be useful. Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to you and yours, Dr Younger. I hope you get some time off. Thanks for posting all your videos in 2024, it’s been so interesting and uplifting to know a little of what’s going on. Love from the UK 🇬🇧
Thank you! Yes I am going to take a little time off. :-) - Jarred Younger
Sounds promising! I hope you take some time off and recharge. 😎
What other OAA are there? I didnt find any except for the terra biological one that has 3 brands in different doses(jubilance, benagene, OAA CFS) the highest dose there is 500mg and it's 500$ for a bottle of 90 capsules, it's about 670$ a month for 2000mg!
in the first trial they went up to 3000mg, this supplement price is unreal.
I looked into the commercially available products and I agree with your observation that they use the same OAA source, and the prices look identical. So there does appear to be only one source specifically made for human consumption. I will pin a comment to correct that error in my video and to mention the issue of significant cost. Thanks - Jarred Younger
Just an FYI. It would appear that the supplement is most effective in mild to moderate cases of CFS/ME but not effective in severe cases.
The non overlap at 9:00 is probably because they’re displaying mean + SEM and not mean + SD. Error bars are always tighter when using SEM
Thank you as always, Dr Younger :)
Thank you for the good news Dr. Younger
Bkessings to u dir all u do🙏💞🎄.. appreciate imfo, am long cov
Thank you for that info as im not up to date with anything ,nor have a Dr now looking after me,passed away 😢😢I'll look into it,although Ive reacted to EVERYTHING ive ever been trialled on so be interested in any/all side effects if ever you do video on that.Im not well enough to read the Paper.Thanks Dr Younger you're Amazing & Always give hope.😊
Wow I was going to ask you about this study, without knowing you were going to do a video on it!
If you are going to purchase OAA to try - please please check the back of the bottle as some contain VITAMIN C as part of the total mgs of OAA which is misleading (benegene do this on the 250mg tablets). You are not getting 250mg OAA, only 100mg plus 150mg of vitamin C. 250mg is stated on the front of the bottle which is misleading. The 500mg cfs tablets are actually just 500mg OAA from benegene I believe.
It's the same company just different brands for marketing to different diagnoses, the 500mg for me/cfs doesnt have vit c and there is also one for PMS called jubilance.
benagene is a general one marketed for antiaging and as an antioxidant and their label is really misleading you are right.
Thanks. I just saw this from another comment. I made the mistake doing calculations based on the 250mg stated on the front of one of the product bottles, not realizing most of that is Vitamin C. The CFS product seems to not have anything other than OAA. But it makes the cost even higher than I originally estimated -- around $650 a month. - Jarred Younger
Looks promising as a boost to quality of life.
Why is it so expensive?
I think it’s because of the way the substance has to be stabilized is very costly for the maker.
They are cashing in
Thank you 🙏🏼
🎄Merry Christmas & Happy New Year to ALL on Dr Youngers Channel🎄🥳😊
The rice flour might be playing a role in causing people to drop out. Rice flour causes me significant gut problems, to the point that I can't take any supplements that contain it. Maybe I'm not the only one?
I was thinking about that too. The active capsules would have little to no rice flour filler, and the placebo would have about 2 grams of rice flour per day. Maybe that is enough to cause stomach upset (it would be helpful to see the complaints of those dropping out of the placebo arm). I've never used rice flour in my placebo capsules. The microcrystalline cellulose filler has worked well for us in ME/CFS and fibromyalgia studies. - Jarred Younger
It's the best time of the week once again!
Thanks! - Jarred Younger
How long do you have to take it? What happens after the 3 months, does the fatigue come back? Thank you Dr Younger for all your work
You're asking the same questions I am! :-) I would like to know if full effects are seen in, for example, one month. And what happens if someone stops taking the capsules at 3 months versus keeps taking them. The research team will hopefully release info like that. - Jarred Younger
@youngerlab thank you for your response. I really appreciate you and the other researchers studying this illness. It is an incredibly cruel disease that has taken almost everything I have worked so hard for in my life. I know there are millions of us desperate for some kind of effective treatment. Nothing I have tried has worked, including IVIG and many medications/supplements. We are so apprective of your work. Thank you and have a happy new year.
If these companies that produce this Oxalocetate really knew what CFS is, had it, they would open a non-profit to get this to as many CFS sufferers as possible.
How much would the results of this study be affected by the possibility of subtypes of MECFS? So the responders would be a subtype, and for them this treatment is a really good option. It seems like this is a good example of of a treatment working really well for a subgroup, but overall it wouldn’t meet the standard for approval as a treatment?
Yes I think that is exactly the critical question. I think OAA and related blood tests is the place to start. But if it were being reviewed by the FDA in a large clinical trial, 40% success is usually enough for success (assuming there aren't people who get substantially worse on the treatment). - Jarred Younger
Biostatistician, here. What is the CI for the effect size, i.e., difference between arms, which appears to be about 17%, arithmetically (not the individual point estimates for each arm)? Also, p values are declared statistically significant based on the alpha level selected as part of the design of the study, and the p is a probability, specifically the probability, under the assumption that the null hypothesis is true (and the null here is that there is no difference between arms, which the study would like obviously to be able to reject with the evidence from the study), that we would see the difference between arms of this size, or larger, under hypothetically conducted repeated randomized trials run (over and over) exactly like this one. Of course this RCT is only conducted once but statistical science (probability distribution functions) knows how likely our result is from all hypothetically possible results of this same trial, and that is what our probability is. So for me, as a biostatistician, I look at the effect size to see if it is compelling clinically (does it make a difference to the patient, and compared to other treatments, etc.), and the actual p value. The p value in this study indicates that the is result is quite unlikely (a bit more than 1 in 20 chance) assuming that there is no difference between arms. Hence, since this result is so unlikely assuming no effect, we reject our initial assumption of no difference between arms in favor of the alternative (hypothesis) that the difference is real--even, for me--if it does not technically achieve statistical significance by being p less than or equal to 0.05. This is an evocative study and should be followed by a larger one soon (my son has ME/CFS). I am a bit concerned about loss to follow up and would like to see the reasons for drop out from each arm to begin to understand whether the attrition is systematic (caused by something important) or not. My sincere apologies for the long post! Am open to questions if anyone has interest.
Thanks! I agree with the idea of focusing on effect size over p-value, and the concern about the loss to follow up. It is a larger than expected loss in the placebo group. It might make sense if the drop outs were due to unwillingness to attend the lab visits due to lack of perceived efficacy, but it would be good to confirm that is the case. - Jarred Younger
Terra Biological claims to have cracked the nut on making a stabilized OAA. That seems to be one of the pitfalls of just grabbing a bottle labeled OAA.
Thanks again! The price and the conflicts of interest worry me. I hope they publish some bloodtest data. And if it helps 40% then an attempt at finding what cluster benefits would also be very useful.
Agreed! - Jarred Younger
Is this something I can take along with LDN? (LDN doesn't help as much as it did the first few years. I"m on 6mg and that's as high as my doctor will prescribe.)
I take 4.5 in the morning and 4.5 in the evening.
Can one take OA if one has kidney stones or crystals?
If you take out the high responders (40%), the average improvement is about 10-15%? So would you conclude that for 60% of the people on the trial, the improvements are not especially significant? Or is that a flawed conclusion?
A probably related question is how long the subjects had been ill. Dr. Bateman has said that those of us who have been sick for up to 5 years are more likely to show improvement. So if someone does a larger follow-up study of OAA, it would be great if they could break down response by time sick with me/cfs - it may be that the 40% of enhanced responders who got 63% less fatigue actually are people who’ve had me/cfs for 5 years or less. That would help patients decide whether to spend $670/month to try OAA.
I have to say that for me a 10% improvement would be huge, actually….
Edit - it’s less than 10-15%, it’s almost zero
Anyone know what foods possibly contain OAA?
As a supplement it is probably derived from a food?
"Oxaloacetate (3-carboxy-3-oxopropanoic acid, OAA) is a natural chemical that participates in Krebs cycle and acts as a glutamate scavenge. It is found in blueberries, blackberries, tangerines and plums, and in vegetables as spinach, beets and quinoa"
Do as I did and google it. "which food helps oxaloacetate form" and then feast on the results.
@@higreentjI’m eating almost all those.
@@illuminationgoddess3 so am I.
Be careful with oxalates. They can damage the kidneys. Boil or even better, ferment the vegs before consuming. Which begs the question as to the high dose used in the clinical trial in terms of kidney function changes. 🤔
Oh, and overlapping confidence intervals do not automatically indicate non-statistical significance.
I had really bad heart burn when I took OAA, even if I took it with food. Had to stop after 2 days.
Interesting. Thanks for mentioning it. - Jarred Younger
I felt really unwell after taking a low dose of OAA (500mg) for just a few days. Any idea why? Was any follow up done on the participants who dropped out of the study?
Out of my own curiosity, what's your gut health & diet like?
Is the paper big pharma?
It is small pharma, with some other ME/CFS clinicians and researchers. - Jarred Younger
One company is selling for $8k/year 😅 taxpayers already funded all this research. Those people should be in prison for life
I hope the company can get the price down somehow to something accessible to more people. That, or demonstrate that smaller dosages also work. To my knowledge, all the research on developing this product was done without federal funding - just private funding. - Jarred Younger
👍
Fungi make and also consume OAA. Are we going to keep ignoring that all this is caused by fungi?
I know of a repeated failures of the use of RCT, including a triple-blinded study, during a single research topic done by world-class research universities. Open label studies are as legitimate as RCT.
I have wondered if I might have this, but my symptoms have too many correlations to people in my environment and their subversive behaviors connected to depletions of my resources outside of my physical body as well as depletions of my physical bodys strength, health, energy. So i just figured im surrounded by body snatching vampires.