I'm glad somebody did this. Most of the tests I see online are done with #7 1/2 shot or #8 shot. I've posted this elsewhere, but I live in a condo end unit with kids in every unit next to me. Right now immediately next door there are three children under the age of five. I can't take a chance…let me re-state that…I WON'T take a chance on them being hurt by a shot that I fired. To me #4 shot is an acceptable compromise. Might it get me killed? Yep. Better me than one of those kids.
Rabies is a scary thing and can make the most passive animals very agressive and dangerous. Good on you for putting them down respectfully and also safely for yourself.
I think you have by far the best, most detailed and informative ballistic tests on youtube. The clarity is amazing as well. I really enjoy watching your videos.
A couple of years ago, afterwatching this video, I bought some Federal Premium Turkey loads in #4 with the flight control wadding. I figured the combination of the copper coating on the lead pellets and the flight control wad would give better penetration while minimizing the risk of penetrating too many walls. Recently, another youtuber actually tested this round at 9 feet and it performed much better than I had anticipated. I was hoping you would test this round as well as a home defense option as I really appreciate you testing format. I do miss your videos and I think it would be a great addition to your playlists.
Thank you again for a great test. This is truly an important service to all considering protection in their homes. I have pointed to your videos numerous times when asked about firearms and types of calibers.
TN, you provide some of the best information out there on gun and ammo testing, and I really appreciate all of the work you do. We don't see all you have to do to set these tests up, but I can imagine some of what it takes and it's remarkable. Please keep up the great work.
I think a lot of folks have a weird misconception about the recoil of buckshot versus that of birdshot. Probably because they associate buckshot with full-power loads, and birdshot with light-recoiling target loads. To make it clear, recoil is *not* affected by pellet size. It's the total weight that's important. Assuming the same velocity, a 1-ounce round ball is going to transfer just as much momentum to the gun as one ounce of lead dust would. A 1 1/4-ounce field load of #4 birdshot like the one shown in this video is actually going to be throwing more lead than you get in 9 pellets of 00 buckshot (which is generally 1 1/8-ounce or slightly less), and the 1330 FPS shown on the box is pretty close to what a lot of 00B loads are rated at. There are some other factors at play, such as how the rated velocities change when used in a short barrel (many 12ga velocity ratings are based on 30" test barrels), and additional momentum from wadding, buffering, and powder gasses/residue, but the important thing to understand is that the physics of recoil are the same regardless of pellet size.
The height of the brass (or steel, as is the case with many modern shotshells) doesn't affect anything with modern propellants & plastic hulls. The metal piece is there simply there to hold the primer and give the gun's extractor something to grab onto. If a manufacturer decides to use a high-brass hull for a given load, it's purely a stylistic choice, meant to make the shotshell _look_ powerful. As a handloader, I can tell you that many of the best, strongest hulls for reloading actually have very low cups. But as for the powder charge, it is true that buckshot shells often (though not always) use slower-burning propellants, which keep pressures down but require a heavier charge to achieve a given velocity than the faster-burning propellants you tend to see in many mid-to-light target loads. However, the same thing goes for heavier field loads as well. If you compare buckshot & birdshot load data that employ the same propellant, hull, primer, wad, and total shot weight, you'll see that the powder charges are really very similar for the same velocity. As I said, both birdshot & buckshot use the same physics, so loads with similar momentum will produce similar recoil; shot size isn't really a factor on its own. And as I mentioned before, the very common 1 1/4-ounce, 3 3/4-dram (1330 FPS) #4 field load tested in this video is generally going to have slightly stiffer recoil than typical 9-pellet 00 Buck shells. When I load birdshot shells for cheap practice with similar recoil to express buckshot, I generally go for a slightly more mild 1 1/4-ounce, 3 5/8-dram (~1305 FPS) load instead. If someone recommends a heavy 12ga field load over buckshot because "it has lower recoil", you can be sure they don't know what they're talking about.
Thank you men I got some buckshot for the first time vet today after thirty years of shooting 4"three inch magnum rounds I was expecting no it to kick like hell but was less than the heavy magnum field shot thought I was imagining it
Hello: Great video. In 1959 at 9 year old I used a 12 Ga. Buckeye with # 4 shot on groundhog, worked well. Today if I tell people I bought ammo at 9 they say do what. I paid 10 cents for shotshells and 50 cents a box for .22. Western Auto store. I have a S&W 916, mossberg 20'' 8 shot, In 1 box of shells I am replaceing the 7.5 with BB's capped with Gulf wax. CH BB's 6000 to a jug. Check weight off BB's to same as shot. No high pressure. I reload 38 44 45acp,LC 223 2506 220S. Have a Nice Day
THANK YOU!!!!!! You are the man!!! Finally, someone tested something in between bird shot and buckshot for efficacy and penetration. For those of us who fear over penetration, thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!!!
I like your logic on this and its what I have loaded in my 12 ga right now. I'd like to see how #4's compare to #2's & BB. The BB is much less common but #2's are easy to find. Did you velocity test this load? For even less recoil, one could use low base shells.
Thank you for this video. As an individual who is thinking about purchasing a gun for home defense this video was extremely informative and responsible with your information. Keep it up.
Excellent videos offering very valuable information. I have watch some of your other videos and they are all very on point and easy to listen to. Thank you! Now I longer feel as concerned about using lead #2 birdshot for my first round and #4 buck for my second inside the house.
As always, excellent video, you never disappoint you viewers. I had no idea that you could reuse the ballistic gelatin by melting it down and reforming again. I always use to think these videos were costing you a fortune with all the ballistic gelatin. I'm glad to hear you've been able to save money resuing them.
I have serious doubts that if a dirtbag breaks into your home and you hit him once in the chest with number 4 shot that there's gonna be any fight left in him.
I was a combat medic. Anywhere in the pneumothorax is deadly. If you hit them in the upper arm, the brachial artery will most likely be severed and they could bleed to death in short order. If you hit them in the upper thigh, they will bleed to death faster through the femoral artery. This shot disperses within the body and does incredible destruction to veins, arteries, organs and so on. People can survive pistol shots depending on where they are hit, but the shot pattern on a shotgun virtually eliminates your chances of survival especially if you are hit center mass in the torso. Even if you are hit in the gut, those pellets and their respective wound channels will disrupt arteries and the like to the point of Humpty Dumpty. Even if an ambulance is right there, you will not make it. 00 buck will definitely be an end game. There are people who say well, I knew a guy blah blah blah. I am telling you that at close range like in a home it is game over.
@@hillbilly4christ638 You might want to edit pneumothorax to just thorax or torso. A pneumothorax is a medical condition where air enters the chest cavity between the wall and lung.
I , and I think I can speak for a whole lot of people , wish you well with your Health ! And thank you for all the wonderful work you have done to educate us ! You were simply the best in the niche you created . Fair winds and following seas my friend !
I would think getting hit with this load would really, really hurt. That is a ton of hurt hitting a body. Penetration is not the only thing that matters. If you hit a man in the throat or face, they would go right down. Good video.
Thanks for the video, its good to know as this is the load I use in my town house as their families living to each side of me. 5-6 inchs is good enough as the human heart is only 3" deep and takes 1 pellet to stop.
I saw an article-perhaps 30 years ago-that said that Buffered & Plated Buckshot not only patterns tighter but that the smoother & less deformed shot Penetrate 10-15% deeper. The same probably applies-though perhaps not as much-with Birdshot. I'd make a point to buy buffered & plated shot for home defense, and my own choice would be BB size. I have read many articles by folk with access to many Police shooting reports, that suggest that even #4 Buck is frequntly lacking in penetration on humans in real life. ( BB-Sized shot would probably fail more often...) Sadly, if the round has enough penetration to be a good candidate to stop someone, it also has the potential to shoot through Sheetrock walls and damage someone on the other side. Like almost everything else in life, there are tradeoffs. .....RVM45
I live in a rural area. I keep the shotgun loaded for varmints like you mentioned. (#4 upland game, not buck). Should do pretty well on bad guys as well.
thanks for the upload tis show how effective a shotgun is from close range a hit from that will immobilize (or kill in most cases) anny treath sorry for some spelling faults i'm from belgium
I've been watching your videos for a while and I have to say, you do a damn good job on your reviews, very professional and informative.. keep 'em comin
Thanks - I have been wondering how #4 shot would work. Since my kids live in town over penetration is a big deal. I would also be curious about any improvement by using #2 shot, like the old goose loads.
Thank you for posting! Thats the same coffee maker we have at our fire station up here in Fairbanks, cant tell you how many times iv wanted to bring that thing down range. God Bless America, stay safe
Early on in the video, the narrator mentions his experience in having to shoot rabid animals, but he does not elaborate on the details in regard to how it relates to this gel test. About twenty years ago, I had to shoot a rabid skunk in my front yard after it went chasing after several neighborhood dogs and then later tried to get in my front door. I can tell you from personal experience, if you ever find yourself shooting at a rabid animal from merely ten feet away, you are too damn close! Vermin like skunks, raccoons, and such are smaller than you think, and they can move very quickly when they want. When rabid, they are extremely aggressive and will charge you in a heartbeat. After grabbing my shotgun, I took my first shot that day from just over twenty feet, and I still missed with the vast majority of my pellets as my pattern was slightly off center. Fortunately the few pellets that hit put the critter down to where I was able to finish it off with a follow-up shot. In regard to the video demonstration, I much prefer #4 Buck for a standard home defense load, but regular #4 shot is a good choice for most smaller animals.
Quick question. The shells you used were marked "Express Long Range." What do those words tell me about the character of the loads or performance? Are Express Long Range shells more powerful and faster than standard loads?
Whoa, I almost feel validated!!!! In the comments for the test where you used #8 birdshot. I recommended #4 shot, and told a short story of nearly anything finer I've seen get stuck in the feathers of Pheasant. It appears the is very similiar to #8. But with a higher percentage going a little further. I know a test of every shot size sure would be interesting. But would be a ridiculous request. Looking forward to future test's of any round/caliber/gauge. I know they will be interesting.
I got home invaded last month. I shot through my bedroom door with 7 1/2 shot from 10 feet away. It left a 10 inch hole on the back side. I am pretty sure it would have been devastating for the recipient.
For outdoor vermin, rabid creatures and such, you might succeed in scrounging-up a box or two of an old Remington load. They used to make a 12-Gauge, 3-inch Magnum shell loaded with 1 7/8 oz. of lead BB shot. It was a HEAVY load, but through a modified choke it would give you a bit more stand-off distance when dealing with aggressive animals. Should work well for coyotes at moderate distances, if the situation prohibits the use of a proper rifle.
Looking forward to the new block! I am very curious to see what a 57x28 will do to it if you ever get the chance. Thanks for all the great vids, We love your channel and keep up the great work!
those cicadas sound beautiful in the background. when we get them in vegas they just sound like downed power lines. p.s. nice vid. there are probably very few people tough enough to take a 12 gauge game loads in-house range and stay on their feet
I think one of the big motivators here, for the end user , is fear of missing the shot. And fear of the incident, in general. They want the security and power of the weapon, without having to train for it. And your mentality is just playing into it. They want to just sit and wait for the close range shot, that CAN be effective, but can also get them killed in the process. But I'm learning here that you can't always help those who don't want to improve, if they just want to settle.
Just picked up 4 boxes of fiocchi 2 shot 3" magnums 10 in a jts m12ak and the fireball alone will deter most it doesn't run slugs that well but don't need em close up at all
According to readily available professional tests, #1 buck is the smallest shot that will reliably reach vital organs. Smaller shot is wholly unsuitable for defense. Any cartridge that can reliably stop a threat will also penetrate multiple walls, doors, etc. Period. Shot placement and selecting an effective cartridge is the best way to reduce risk to bystanders.
As tnoutdoors9 mentions, this should not be confused with #4 buck. Here's #4 *buck*shot tested in calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin, if you are intersted: 12 ga gel test: Remington #4 buck
You have incredibly informative really great videos, I really appreciate and love them , but if you used clear ballistics gel in all you're testing it would be sooo much more visually stimulating and informative from a " see it for yourself " point of view... just imo. But thank you for all your time and effort in your great video s =)
I've used clear gel quite a bit the past few years; it may not have been available when this video was posted. While the clear gel visual is unbeatable, several independent reviews have indicated that it inflates penetration of non-frangible ammo by up to 30%. So, you can either have a better visual, or more accurate information.
Ah , I wasn't aware of that... you know what would be a very cool video and one I've never seen on TH-cam before is a side-by-side comparison of the two ballistic gel's themselves , the clear sitting next to the solid showing the differences in penetration from the same round at the same distance. Perhaps even a block of a mixture of the two gels ? A block that's slightly more ballistically accurate than the clear, but just foggy enough to show visual penetration ? However, I'm AM known to be an idiot at times , so that may be a dumb idea lol. Merry Christmas from Alaska =)
I understand and i respect that. I was just taking the idea of over penetration in a little different direction....some people look at this as being a safer alternative to buckshot because they believe the smaller pellets will not penetrate an interior wall and thus will not pose a threat to a family member on the other side in case of a miss. Which i believed was what i was trying to point out. Meant no offense or disregard to the actual gel test and penetration of the shot.
Have watched many videos and read much material. My decision has been to go with a 12 gauge with #4 buck shot. My situation is that I live in a small home with a wife and we have 4 kids,. I think #4 buck shot seems to be the minimum for ability to reliably take down an intruder but at the same time, at least minimizes the problem of over-penetration. It seems that the "right choice" of self defense firearm almost completely depends upon your particular situation and needs.
Just for a reference. My brother accidently shot himself in his leg, with bird shot about 4 inches above the knee. And the wad went in about 4 inches. It was a point blank range. He swung the shotgun like an ax to kill a downed grouse, and the gun went off. Stupid I know but after seeing first hand what bird shot dose, I'm not so convinced its the best solution for self defence. He ended up with pellets throughout his leg, but only about 10" of penetration.
Thanks for the test, I know I was one who asked. I still believe, even more so, that it would be adequate for home defense. We used BB Shot [ .177 cal.] which would be equal to #3 or #2, in the state of TN at correction facilities. We also trained to shot into the ground about 5 feet in front of target,this was at a distance o f 15 to 20 yards the rounds skip up into the shins and legs, to break up riot charges. you don't have till kill a man to put him out of commission. Killing a man, no matter what the reason, is something you have to live with the rest of your life. Ask any combat vet.
Just because you allowed your shot to bounce before striking the legs doesn't necessarily preclude the possibility of killing someone. Reduces it, yes, but the femoral artery is still there, and any shot that hits it could lead to bleeding to death in minutes.
Hey Lee Shoemaker, I'm just starting to reload 12ga. I got my Lee Load All 2 a few weeks ago and been loading bird shots#7-1/2 ever since. Its been treating me good as far as dove hunting. Bandtail Pigeon season is just around the corner and I've been looking for shot#4 but everywhere is sold out. You think .177 bbs will be effective? How's the shot pattern when you shoot .177 bbs?? Thanks
Every shotgun patterns a little different. You can load a few and test your pattern on paper at 20 & 40 yards. Copper BBs are lighter than lead and won,t have as much long range effect as lead. I believe the lead BB shot is .180. But either will destroy a ground hog at 30 yards. Hope this helps.
Lee shoemaker Well said. These idiots on TH-cam act like they fantasize about killing someone. Easy to think that way, from mommies basement, I guess. They have no idea what life is...
That was a 1 1/4oz payload at 1,330fps, I think most of your 12-pellet #00 buck loads are going to be similar as far as payload and velocity. I do wish one of the big manufacturers would come out with a 'tactical' 1oz load of #4 buck or #0/#1 buck at 1,200-1,300 fps. That would still be ridiculous stopping power and not so brutal for recoil. Liked the idea so much I loaded my own...
what about using #2 shot instead of #4? do you think there would be a bit better penetration and still maintaining relative safety as far as over penetration thru walls and such?
That would probably be a little better, it would be good if you could find #4 buck shot, it passes the 12" of ballistics gel and only went through one wall in a test I saw, stopping in the next wall in the first layer of sheet rock.
Do these people not realize it takes. 13 Ar.15 bullets to put as many .22 rounds down range as a shotgun with a 4 shot high powered shell? Of course they don't.
Very good. I agree that this is much better than the #8 birdshot low brass loads you tested which I would not even consider for home defense. These Remington Express loads in #4 are exactly what I have in my Mossberg 500 for home defense.
I stand corrected, thanks for the #4 test. I still believe a full choke would add value. I still consider #4 to be birdshot. I use #2 duck loads 1-13-16 ounce Nitro Magnums which I believe would give about 12 inches of penetration.
right on man. im in east tn. jonesborough, i grew up a country boy. but now i live in the city, was looking for some privete property to shoot on, cause last week i went to a public range , i asked if range was clear, everyone said yes! i began walking down my bay, and all of a sudden a crazy woman opens fire.. i about pooped my pants.never want to go back there. anyway man good videos. keep them commin
I've got this same load, but in the Fiochi's 1 3/8oz "Golden Pheasant" line. That uses hardened nickel plated shot that gives about 25% better penetration. Making it an excellent HD round where over penetration is a concern
Very useful test for me, because the law requires #2 birdshot, or smaller, for night time coyote hunting. Or any .22 caliber rifle. However, #2 lead is hard to find. So, I'm stuck with #4 lead. It seems that it would do the job, on a coyote, tho. Especially if shot thru a turkey choke.
Thank you SO much for this one! A friend of mine that lives in an apartment has her 12-gauge Remington 11-48 loaded with Federal #4 shot (not buckshot) as I recommended it to her as a compromise between having adequate penetration and not OVER-penetration. She was concerned that it would not penetrate enough, based upon things she'd seen and heard with lighter birdshot loads (#7.5 and such). Will be forwarding this vid to her so she can see it will do just fine. Thanks again!
Would be nice to see some real autopsy cases. I watched a video about a 45lb recurve bow, it only did 4-6 inches in gel, but the guy said in animals it goes much further.
I doubt it. If they do, they are disregarding widely available tests and FBI recommendations. In addition to putting their officers at risk, that leaves them very vulnerable to lawsuit.
#4 IS birdshot. Not to be confused with #4 Buckshot.... which obviously isnt birdshot. Youn should have also tested it with some thing leather to represent skin and some denim or cloth clothing to see how.much penetration that takes away. It will be significant. If I couldnt find buckshot, #2, BB T etc would be my first choice.
A bit late here, but excellent test. i use the exact same load for home defense, except #2 shot out of a Remington 870 Wingmaster with 18" police barrel. I live in a townhouse with neighbors on both sides so I feel this load offers great performance and would be very nasty without having to resort to 00 buckshot which would run a considerable risk of overpenetration.
Well, that's nice to know. I've loaded mine with #1 lead shot. Not buckshot, #1 birdshot. Each pellet weighs twice as much as a #4 birdshot. I feel comfortable with that.
Hey Tnout, you ever consider using a cheese wire for cutting through your gel blocks? It would probably give you a much straighter, cleaner cut, making it easier for the viewer to visually track the disruption channels occurring through the test media.
i currently live in a super-old house with walls made out of a thick concrete-like stucco. i have tested a dozen or so .22 lr hp on a simulation of the walls and a few did penetrate. based on this video and my own test i would be timid to use something as heavy as 00 buck in the house but maybe something smaller like #4 buck or smaller would suffice. i would however, recommend that you ALWAYS back up your first round of smaller birdshot with buckshot when confronted with an armed intruder.
Great video and very relevant. I live in the suburbs and regularly wonder about over penetration in the case of an intruder who would mean bodily harm to my family. I have gone with bird shot thus far but your video has opened my eyes to some extent.
Shotguns have many other options however some of these loads are hard to find. Loads used for ducks as an example, smaller pellet size “buckshot loads available to hand loaders. #2 shot has been used for coyotes. #6 is probably the most available. It would be helpful to investigate some of these options.
![⭐ฮิตในTikTok!! ( มะมะมะหมูเด้ง MooDeng ) Ver. แดนซ์ ReMix BY [ ดีเจกิต รีมิกซ์ ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/4noyAoMa7bQ/mqdefault.jpg)
![Stuff You Should Know About Buckshot [Part 1]](/img/n.gif)
10 years old and this is one of the best tests I've seen to date.
Well done.
I'm glad somebody did this. Most of the tests I see online are done with #7 1/2 shot or #8 shot.
I've posted this elsewhere, but I live in a condo end unit with kids in every unit next to me. Right now immediately next door there are three children under the age of five. I can't take a chance…let me re-state that…I WON'T take a chance on them being hurt by a shot that I fired. To me #4 shot is an acceptable compromise.
Might it get me killed? Yep. Better me than one of those kids.
Disagree 7 1/2 is what you want in home in my opinion this #4 is to powerful would go threw some shit
@@matthewbrummer360 both go through one interior wall. Both stop after entering the second interior wall.
@Jason T,,,you may want to look into the "Non Lethal rounds..It may be better suited to your line of thinking..
#4 is much better than a buckshot @@matthewbrummer360
Rabies is a scary thing and can make the most passive animals very agressive and dangerous. Good on you for putting them down respectfully and also safely for yourself.
You are missed on the interwebs. TH-cam is a lesser place without your continuing tutelage.
I just watched a brand new upload from him. Are you sure that he's gone? If he was he's back now.
I concur
Here here
I think you have by far the best, most detailed and informative ballistic tests on youtube. The clarity is amazing as well. I really enjoy watching your videos.
A couple of years ago, afterwatching this video, I bought some Federal Premium Turkey loads in #4 with the flight control wadding.
I figured the combination of the copper coating on the lead pellets and the flight control wad would give better penetration while minimizing the risk of penetrating too many walls.
Recently, another youtuber actually tested this round at 9 feet and it performed much better than I had anticipated.
I was hoping you would test this round as well as a home defense option as I really appreciate you testing format.
I do miss your videos and I think it would be a great addition to your playlists.
Thank you again for a great test. This is truly an important service to all considering protection in their homes. I have pointed to your videos numerous times when asked about firearms and types of calibers.
TN, you provide some of the best information out there on gun and ammo testing, and I really appreciate all of the work you do. We don't see all you have to do to set these tests up, but I can imagine some of what it takes and it's remarkable. Please keep up the great work.
I think a lot of folks have a weird misconception about the recoil of buckshot versus that of birdshot. Probably because they associate buckshot with full-power loads, and birdshot with light-recoiling target loads. To make it clear, recoil is *not* affected by pellet size. It's the total weight that's important. Assuming the same velocity, a 1-ounce round ball is going to transfer just as much momentum to the gun as one ounce of lead dust would.
A 1 1/4-ounce field load of #4 birdshot like the one shown in this video is actually going to be throwing more lead than you get in 9 pellets of 00 buckshot (which is generally 1 1/8-ounce or slightly less), and the 1330 FPS shown on the box is pretty close to what a lot of 00B loads are rated at. There are some other factors at play, such as how the rated velocities change when used in a short barrel (many 12ga velocity ratings are based on 30" test barrels), and additional momentum from wadding, buffering, and powder gasses/residue, but the important thing to understand is that the physics of recoil are the same regardless of pellet size.
Powder charge is a big factor. Buckshot tends to be high-brass and has a larger powder charge compared most low-brass birdshot.
The height of the brass (or steel, as is the case with many modern shotshells) doesn't affect anything with modern propellants & plastic hulls. The metal piece is there simply there to hold the primer and give the gun's extractor something to grab onto. If a manufacturer decides to use a high-brass hull for a given load, it's purely a stylistic choice, meant to make the shotshell _look_ powerful. As a handloader, I can tell you that many of the best, strongest hulls for reloading actually have very low cups.
But as for the powder charge, it is true that buckshot shells often (though not always) use slower-burning propellants, which keep pressures down but require a heavier charge to achieve a given velocity than the faster-burning propellants you tend to see in many mid-to-light target loads. However, the same thing goes for heavier field loads as well. If you compare buckshot & birdshot load data that employ the same propellant, hull, primer, wad, and total shot weight, you'll see that the powder charges are really very similar for the same velocity. As I said, both birdshot & buckshot use the same physics, so loads with similar momentum will produce similar recoil; shot size isn't really a factor on its own.
And as I mentioned before, the very common 1 1/4-ounce, 3 3/4-dram (1330 FPS) #4 field load tested in this video is generally going to have slightly stiffer recoil than typical 9-pellet 00 Buck shells. When I load birdshot shells for cheap practice with similar recoil to express buckshot, I generally go for a slightly more mild 1 1/4-ounce, 3 5/8-dram (~1305 FPS) load instead. If someone recommends a heavy 12ga field load over buckshot because "it has lower recoil", you can be sure they don't know what they're talking about.
Them 2 3/4 #4&5 1 1/2 oz max dram 12ga turkey loads kick harder than some 3” 12ga 00&000 buckshot in my Browning Gold
Thank you men I got some buckshot for the first time vet today after thirty years of shooting 4"three inch magnum rounds I was expecting no it to kick like hell but was less than the heavy magnum field shot thought I was imagining it
Good on you for spreading useful and factual info.
Hello: Great video. In 1959 at 9 year old I used a 12 Ga. Buckeye with # 4 shot on groundhog, worked well. Today if I tell people I bought ammo at 9 they say do what. I paid 10 cents for shotshells and 50 cents a box for .22. Western Auto store. I have a S&W 916, mossberg 20'' 8 shot, In 1 box of shells I am replaceing the 7.5 with BB's capped with Gulf wax. CH BB's 6000 to a jug. Check weight off BB's to same as shot. No high pressure. I reload 38 44 45acp,LC 223 2506 220S. Have a Nice Day
U still shootin'!
THANK YOU!!!!!! You are the man!!! Finally, someone tested something in between bird shot and buckshot for efficacy and penetration. For those of us who fear over penetration, thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!!!
I like your logic on this and its what I have loaded in my 12 ga right now. I'd like to see how #4's compare to #2's & BB. The BB is much less common but #2's are easy to find. Did you velocity test this load? For even less recoil, one could use low base shells.
Thank you for this video. As an individual who is thinking about purchasing a gun for home defense this video was extremely informative and responsible with your information. Keep it up.
Excellent videos offering very valuable information. I have watch some of your other videos and they are all very on point and easy to listen to. Thank you! Now I longer feel as concerned about using lead #2 birdshot for my first round and #4 buck for my second inside the house.
Awesome video, short and to the point with a good test instead of just speculation.
The 12 guage 2 3/4" #4 is my go to load for geese and capricaille.
i only ever see these shells in 2 3/4" shells #2 and #4 ,,,,,, do they make these in 3 inch???
Thats going to leave a mark for sure, nothing gives more hurt than a 12ga up close!! Great test, Keep them coming!
As always, excellent video, you never disappoint you viewers. I had no idea that you could reuse the ballistic gelatin by melting it down and reforming again. I always use to think these videos were costing you a fortune with all the ballistic gelatin. I'm glad to hear you've been able to save money resuing them.
Great video. You are setting the standard for interesting, educational, and entertaining videos! Keep up the good work
I have serious doubts that if a dirtbag breaks into your home and you hit him once in the chest with number 4 shot that there's gonna be any fight left in him.
Even if it was in through the arm. He’s going to run to the nearest hospital 😅
I was a combat medic. Anywhere in the pneumothorax is deadly. If you hit them in the upper arm, the brachial artery will most likely be severed and they could bleed to death in short order. If you hit them in the upper thigh, they will bleed to death faster through the femoral artery. This shot disperses within the body and does incredible destruction to veins, arteries, organs and so on. People can survive pistol shots depending on where they are hit, but the shot pattern on a shotgun virtually eliminates your chances of survival especially if you are hit center mass in the torso. Even if you are hit in the gut, those pellets and their respective wound channels will disrupt arteries and the like to the point of Humpty Dumpty. Even if an ambulance is right there, you will not make it. 00 buck will definitely be an end game. There are people who say well, I knew a guy blah blah blah. I am telling you that at close range like in a home it is game over.
@@hillbilly4christ638 Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
@@hillbilly4christ638 You might want to edit pneumothorax to just thorax or torso. A pneumothorax is a medical condition where air enters the chest cavity between the wall and lung.
I don't know if it's knowledge or a scientific wild ass guess. But looking at the gel block you shot.I feel confident it'll put a hurtin on someone
These videos are terrific - thanks for taking the time to compare so many types of ammo and their effects.
I , and I think I can speak for a whole lot of people , wish you well with your Health ! And thank you for all the wonderful work you have done to educate us ! You were simply the best in the niche you created . Fair winds and following seas my friend !
I would think getting hit with this load would really, really hurt. That is a ton of hurt hitting a body. Penetration is not the only thing that matters. If you hit a man in the throat or face, they would go right down. Good video.
I got some of these in #5, and the target is not the only thing that goes down, in a light shotgun (FIE SB).
Dude im sure these arent just gonna hurt they can be fatal trust me
What did Mr. Coffee ever do to you?! :(
Very good video demo. You do a great narrating job, well spoken and clear. Well done !!!
Thanks for the video, its good to know as this is the load I use in my town house as their families living to each side of me. 5-6 inchs is good enough as the human heart is only 3" deep and takes 1 pellet to stop.
Dude your videos are the most helpful for firearms on TH-cam. You should get a reward.
I saw an article-perhaps 30 years ago-that said that Buffered & Plated Buckshot not only patterns tighter but that the smoother & less deformed shot Penetrate 10-15% deeper.
The same probably applies-though perhaps not as much-with Birdshot. I'd make a point to buy buffered & plated shot for home defense, and my own choice would be BB size.
I have read many articles by folk with access to many Police shooting reports, that suggest that even #4 Buck is frequntly lacking in penetration on humans in real life. ( BB-Sized shot would probably fail more often...)
Sadly, if the round has enough penetration to be a good candidate to stop someone, it also has the potential to shoot through Sheetrock walls and damage someone on the other side.
Like almost everything else in life, there are tradeoffs.
.....RVM45
What sort of monster destroys a coffee machine!?
The King of England!
@America Clearly a competition for Tea without the Tax.
Wow birdshot I have that load it’s effective
Great video. Thanks for testing #4. I have been waiting for this one.
I live in a rural area. I keep the shotgun loaded for varmints like you mentioned. (#4 upland game, not buck). Should do pretty well on bad guys as well.
It will.
A three inch hole in the stomach will ruin most peoples day lol
You never let me down sir. Great work.
thanks for the upload tis show how effective a shotgun is from close range a hit from that will immobilize (or kill in most cases) anny treath sorry for some spelling faults i'm from belgium
Just another great video showing the sufficient effectiveness of birdshot at home defense distances!
Yup, at 10-20 feet birdshot is gonna hurt...bad...real bad...this #4 shot would penetrate better than #8, but either will change minds...
I've been watching your videos for a while and I have to say, you do a damn good job on your reviews, very professional and informative.. keep 'em comin
Thanks - I have been wondering how #4 shot would work. Since my kids live in town over penetration is a big deal. I would also be curious about any improvement by using #2 shot, like the old goose loads.
Thank you for posting! Thats the same coffee maker we have at our fire station up here in Fairbanks, cant tell you how many times iv wanted to bring that thing down range. God Bless America, stay safe
RIP orange block. You have served us well.
Early on in the video, the narrator mentions his experience in having to shoot rabid animals, but he does not elaborate on the details in regard to how it relates to this gel test. About twenty years ago, I had to shoot a rabid skunk in my front yard after it went chasing after several neighborhood dogs and then later tried to get in my front door. I can tell you from personal experience, if you ever find yourself shooting at a rabid animal from merely ten feet away, you are too damn close! Vermin like skunks, raccoons, and such are smaller than you think, and they can move very quickly when they want. When rabid, they are extremely aggressive and will charge you in a heartbeat. After grabbing my shotgun, I took my first shot that day from just over twenty feet, and I still missed with the vast majority of my pellets as my pattern was slightly off center. Fortunately the few pellets that hit put the critter down to where I was able to finish it off with a follow-up shot. In regard to the video demonstration, I much prefer #4 Buck for a standard home defense load, but regular #4 shot is a good choice for most smaller animals.
Wish you would've done this test with #4 buckshot! Thanks for an awesome test, as usual.
Quick question. The shells you used were marked "Express Long Range." What do those words tell me about the character of the loads or performance? Are Express Long Range shells more powerful and faster than standard loads?
Whoa, I almost feel validated!!!! In the comments for the test where you used #8 birdshot. I recommended #4 shot, and told a short story of nearly anything finer I've seen get stuck in the feathers of Pheasant. It appears the is very similiar to #8. But with a higher percentage going a little further. I know a test of every shot size sure would be interesting. But would be a ridiculous request. Looking forward to future test's of any round/caliber/gauge. I know they will be interesting.
I got home invaded last month. I shot through my bedroom door with 7 1/2 shot from 10 feet away. It left a 10 inch hole on the back side. I am pretty sure it would have been devastating for the recipient.
Good video, want to see 3" shells vs 2 3/4
For outdoor vermin, rabid creatures and such, you might succeed in scrounging-up a box or two of an old Remington load. They used to make a 12-Gauge, 3-inch Magnum shell loaded with 1 7/8 oz. of lead BB shot. It was a HEAVY load, but through a modified choke it would give you a bit more stand-off distance when dealing with aggressive animals. Should work well for coyotes at moderate distances, if the situation prohibits the use of a proper rifle.
Looking forward to the new block! I am very curious to see what a 57x28 will do to it if you ever get the chance. Thanks for all the great vids, We love your channel and keep up the great work!
Great video answered my question for #4 shot for home defense
As usual another great video!!! Thanks again for taking time to educate the rest of us!!
those cicadas sound beautiful in the background. when we get them in vegas they just sound like downed power lines.
p.s. nice vid. there are probably very few people tough enough to take a 12 gauge game loads in-house range and stay on their feet
el bandito hahahaha "downed power lines"
I think one of the big motivators here, for the end user , is fear of missing the shot. And fear of the incident, in general. They want the security and power of the weapon, without having to train for it. And your mentality is just playing into it. They want to just sit and wait for the close range shot, that CAN be effective, but can also get them killed in the process. But I'm learning here that you can't always help those who don't want to improve, if they just want to settle.
These are good shells to hunt small game with I have killed a lot of squirrells with these in 4 and 5 shot Glad to see this test.
Just picked up 4 boxes of fiocchi 2 shot 3" magnums
10 in a jts m12ak and the fireball alone will deter most it doesn't run slugs that well but don't need em close up at all
Thank you… Thank you very much
I am very glad this showed up in my recommends. Thank you. I think this is my new all around shell.
Pretty cool video for a change of test load.
a common practice from the past involved loading .38 hollow base wad-cutters backwards ,
thus creating a rapid expanding hollowpoint .
According to readily available professional tests, #1 buck is the smallest shot that will reliably reach vital organs. Smaller shot is wholly unsuitable for defense.
Any cartridge that can reliably stop a threat will also penetrate multiple walls, doors, etc. Period. Shot placement and selecting an effective cartridge is the best way to reduce risk to bystanders.
As tnoutdoors9 mentions, this should not be confused with #4 buck. Here's #4 *buck*shot tested in calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin, if you are intersted: 12 ga gel test: Remington #4 buck
You have incredibly informative really great videos, I really appreciate and love them , but if you used clear ballistics gel in all you're testing it would be sooo much more visually stimulating and informative from a " see it for yourself " point of view... just imo. But thank you for all your time and effort in your great video s =)
I've used clear gel quite a bit the past few years; it may not have been available when this video was posted. While the clear gel visual is unbeatable, several independent reviews have indicated that it inflates penetration of non-frangible ammo by up to 30%. So, you can either have a better visual, or more accurate information.
Ah , I wasn't aware of that... you know what would be a very cool video and one I've never seen on TH-cam before is a side-by-side comparison of the two ballistic gel's themselves , the clear sitting next to the solid showing the differences in penetration from the same round at the same distance. Perhaps even a block of a mixture of the two gels ? A block that's slightly more ballistically accurate than the clear, but just foggy enough to show visual penetration ? However, I'm AM known to be an idiot at times , so that may be a dumb idea lol. Merry Christmas from Alaska =)
I understand and i respect that. I was just taking the idea of over penetration in a little different direction....some people look at this as being a safer alternative to buckshot because they believe the smaller pellets will not penetrate an interior wall and thus will not pose a threat to a family member on the other side in case of a miss. Which i believed was what i was trying to point out. Meant no offense or disregard to the actual gel test and penetration of the shot.
Have watched many videos and read much material. My decision has been to go with a 12 gauge with #4 buck shot. My situation is that I live in a small home with a wife and we have 4 kids,. I think #4 buck shot seems to be the minimum for ability to reliably take down an intruder but at the same time, at least minimizes the problem of over-penetration. It seems that the "right choice" of self defense firearm almost completely depends upon your particular situation and needs.
I own a Mossberg 590SP and am quite happy with the dependability of the 590.
I keep #4 and #71/2 in my condo for inside I have a AK47 for outside work....
That's my exact setup😅 mossberg shockwave with 2 #4 and 3 7 1/2 loaded. And a wasr 10 ak.
Just for a reference. My brother accidently shot himself in his leg, with bird shot about 4 inches above the knee. And the wad went in about 4 inches. It was a point blank range. He swung the shotgun like an ax to kill a downed grouse, and the gun went off. Stupid I know but after seeing first hand what bird shot dose, I'm not so convinced its the best solution for self defence. He ended up with pellets throughout his leg, but only about 10" of penetration.
Excellent educational video as always, I have learned a lot from your willingness to share your experiences. Thank you!!
Thanks for the test, I know I was one who asked. I still believe, even more so, that it would be adequate for home defense. We used BB Shot [ .177 cal.] which would be equal to #3 or #2, in the state of TN at correction facilities. We also trained to shot into the ground about 5 feet in front of target,this was at a distance o f 15 to 20 yards the rounds skip up into the shins and legs, to break up riot charges. you don't have till kill a man to put him out of commission. Killing a man, no matter what the reason, is something you have to live with the rest of your life. Ask any combat vet.
Just because you allowed your shot to bounce before striking the legs doesn't necessarily preclude the possibility of killing someone.
Reduces it, yes, but the femoral artery is still there, and any shot that hits it could lead to bleeding to death in minutes.
Hey Lee Shoemaker, I'm just starting to reload 12ga. I got my Lee Load All 2 a few weeks ago and been loading bird shots#7-1/2 ever since. Its been treating me good as far as dove hunting. Bandtail Pigeon season is just around the corner and I've been looking for shot#4 but everywhere is sold out. You think .177 bbs will be effective? How's the shot pattern when you shoot .177 bbs?? Thanks
Every shotgun patterns a little different. You can load a few and test your pattern on paper at 20 & 40 yards. Copper BBs are lighter than lead and won,t have as much long range effect as lead. I believe the lead BB shot is .180. But either will destroy a ground hog at 30 yards. Hope this helps.
Lee shoemaker Well said. These idiots on TH-cam act like they fantasize about killing someone. Easy to think that way, from mommies basement, I guess. They have no idea what life is...
I'd like to see how #4 and #6 game loads do at say 10 yards through a full or x full choke
That was a 1 1/4oz payload at 1,330fps, I think most of your 12-pellet #00 buck loads are going to be similar as far as payload and velocity. I do wish one of the big manufacturers would come out with a 'tactical' 1oz load of #4 buck or #0/#1 buck at 1,200-1,300 fps. That would still be ridiculous stopping power and not so brutal for recoil. Liked the idea so much I loaded my own...
what about using #2 shot instead of #4? do you think there would be a bit better penetration and still maintaining relative safety as far as over penetration thru walls and such?
That would probably be a little better, it would be good if you could find #4 buck shot, it passes the 12" of ballistics gel and only went through one wall in a test I saw, stopping in the next wall in the first layer of sheet rock.
I bet that #4 could be used for self defense
Looks like a big.block of caramel
Try eating some of eat
It's still good just eat around the shot you'll be okay LOL
Thanks for all the effort you put into your videos...it is appreciated!
I said this on your last bird shot test "ER doctors worst nightmare." Looks like this still holds true.
Yes sir...#4 is my home defense load...wicked. Will Penetrate a hollow core door at 50 yards
Do these people not realize it takes. 13 Ar.15 bullets to put as many .22 rounds down range as a shotgun with a 4 shot high powered shell? Of course they don't.
Very good. I agree that this is much better than the #8 birdshot low brass loads you tested which I would not even consider for home defense. These Remington Express loads in #4 are exactly what I have in my Mossberg 500 for home defense.
This is a great load for them that live in apartments or mobile homes. More effective if you hit the face/neck area.
I stand corrected, thanks for the #4 test. I still believe a full choke would add value. I still consider #4 to be birdshot. I use #2 duck loads 1-13-16 ounce Nitro Magnums which I believe would give about 12 inches of penetration.
right on man. im in east tn. jonesborough, i grew up a country boy. but now i live in the city, was looking for some privete property to shoot on, cause last week i went to a public range , i asked if range was clear, everyone said yes! i began walking down my bay, and all of a sudden a crazy woman opens fire.. i about pooped my pants.never want to go back there. anyway man good videos. keep them commin
OK, I really appreciate your tests, thanks.
Am I the only one droolin on that sweet lookin gelatin? 🤤
Makes me want some butterscotch pudding.
I've got this same load, but in the Fiochi's 1 3/8oz "Golden Pheasant" line. That uses hardened nickel plated shot that gives about 25% better penetration. Making it an excellent HD round where over penetration is a concern
Very useful test for me, because the law requires #2 birdshot, or smaller, for night time coyote hunting. Or any .22 caliber rifle. However, #2 lead is hard to find. So, I'm stuck with #4 lead. It seems that it would do the job, on a coyote, tho. Especially if shot thru a turkey choke.
instant groud beef... gonna re-think my home protection loads...
I actually alternate this with 00 buck in my home defense fun
thanks for your videos and the info it presents. I'd like to see the 12 gauge tests using denim, like you do on your handgun ammo tests.
Thank you SO much for this one! A friend of mine that lives in an apartment has her 12-gauge Remington 11-48 loaded with Federal #4 shot (not buckshot) as I recommended it to her as a compromise between having adequate penetration and not OVER-penetration. She was concerned that it would not penetrate enough, based upon things she'd seen and heard with lighter birdshot loads (#7.5 and such). Will be forwarding this vid to her so she can see it will do just fine. Thanks again!
theyre better made from cheap field load like #7s and #8s but i agree, a gel test would be awesome
I'd love to see #4 Buck, T Shot, and possibly Winchester Blindside BB.
Would be nice to see some real autopsy cases. I watched a video about a 45lb recurve bow, it only did 4-6 inches in gel, but the guy said in animals it goes much further.
I doubt it. If they do, they are disregarding widely available tests and FBI recommendations. In addition to putting their officers at risk, that leaves them very vulnerable to lawsuit.
thankyou very much from Canada
#4 IS birdshot. Not to be confused with #4 Buckshot.... which obviously isnt birdshot. Youn should have also tested it with some thing leather to represent skin and some denim or cloth clothing to see how.much penetration that takes away. It will be significant.
If I couldnt find buckshot, #2, BB T etc would be my first choice.
A bit late here, but excellent test. i use the exact same load for home defense, except #2 shot out of a Remington 870 Wingmaster with 18" police barrel. I live in a townhouse with neighbors on both sides so I feel this load offers great performance and would be very nasty without having to resort to 00 buckshot which would run a considerable risk of overpenetration.
Well, that's nice to know. I've loaded mine with #1 lead shot. Not buckshot, #1 birdshot. Each pellet weighs twice as much as a #4 birdshot. I feel comfortable with that.
Hey Tnout, you ever consider using a cheese wire for cutting through your gel blocks? It would probably give you a much straighter, cleaner cut, making it easier for the viewer to visually track the disruption channels occurring through the test media.
i currently live in a super-old house with walls made out of a thick concrete-like stucco. i have tested a dozen or so .22 lr hp on a simulation of the walls and a few did penetrate. based on this video and my own test i would be timid to use something as heavy as 00 buck in the house but maybe something smaller like #4 buck or smaller would suffice. i would however, recommend that you ALWAYS back up your first round of smaller birdshot with buckshot when confronted with an armed intruder.
Nice thorough review 😎
Great video and very relevant. I live in the suburbs and regularly wonder about over penetration in the case of an intruder who would mean bodily harm to my family. I have gone with bird shot thus far but your video has opened my eyes to some extent.
Mine loads instantly. I love your videos.
Shotguns have many other options however some of these loads are hard to find. Loads used for ducks as an example, smaller pellet size “buckshot loads available to hand loaders. #2 shot has been used for coyotes. #6 is probably the most available. It would be helpful to investigate some of these options.