‘I know what you’re thinking, did he fire 6 shots or only 5, but seeing this is an Enfield 1917 and can blow your head clean off, you gotta ask yourself one question. Do I feel lucky, well do ya Boche?’
If a man's chasing another man with a field shovel in one hand and a grenade in the other, I can safely assume he's not collecting for the Salvation Army.
Something nobody ever mentions is that there is still room in the magazine to push the 6th round down far enough to close the bolt. This makes it possible to load a 7th round into the chamber.
I always found the saga of those Enfields confusing- here you gave me a potted history that answered all my questions plus the core message about the rounds, which I never knew. Cool stuff.
Factoid: A lot of P17 ended up back in UK during the seconed round. Mostly issued to Home Gaurd units. P14 were issued to second line military uinits. In order to distingush the two a broad red band was painted around the stocks of the P17's
Very true, they are used in the comedy Dad's Army, however interestingly enough in that they only ever fire 5 rounds and as mutiple people making the show and acting in it were in the home guard they would have known how many rounds go into it, especially as they get the capacity correct on everything else they use. So they may hold 6 but it seems standard practice was 5
@@Alex-cw3rz Makes sense since the ammunition was still in five-round clips or in packages of loose ammunition that divided neatly by five but usually not six, and Home Guard especially were not flush with lots of ammunition at the best of times. I have seen US and British packets of .30'06 and they tend to be 20, 25, or 50 rounds. The "exception" would be the 60-round bandoliers that were widely used by Americans before the adoption of the M1 Garand, but those bandoliers contained 12 clips of five-rounds each, not 60 separate cartridges. When you might be lucky to get fifty bullets a man for your Home Guard Unit, one minded their cartridges.
Some of those where send to Denmark after ww2, there they where issued to the danish homeguard, my grandpa had one at home together with a swedish mashinepistol as a member.
@@lambsauce5312 Push the 6 rounds down and load your 7th into the chamber, then push the bolt over the rounds (making sure you don't pick one up, hence why you push them down). The Lebel has a similar technique that makes it 8+1+1: load 8 into the tube, leave one in the chamber, and one on the elevator, then when closing, don't lift the elevator. Boom, SMLE capacity (this wasn't done because the Lebel has no safety, but it is a real thing).
I'm brand new to the channel (Ian sent me) but I gotta say, I was immediately struck by the fact that you put the fast forward speed in the corner. I don't know why that stuck out to me so much but it made the whole experience just a little bit nicer.
That's not a "fast forward speed" button. That button is to skip to the next video in the TH-cam recommended video list on the left side of your screen.
That is a truly gorgeous M1917. I used to own one, a Winchester made one with a cartouche on the stock that indicated it had been rebuilt at the San Antonio Arsenal at some point. It had a very good bore, which a lot of M1917s don't have, but a fair amount of the finish was worn off, and the stock was nearly black with age.
Bloke on the Range's video regarding the P14/M1917 is interesting too. He has a 1917 that's fitted with a P14 bolt and a 1917 extractor, apparently from being rearsenaled.
Having never fired a P17 or an original 1903 (although I have one of the cheapened ww2 variations) I can say that the Enfield just looks like a better gun. Longer sight radius, aperture sights, stronger action, extra round. The only detractor might be the oddball SMLE wrist/ grip setup. Although I personally have no problem with that setup, history has shown that the semi pistol grip stock is the superior setup for bolt action rifles.
Doubtful that any of those qualities actually matter at all. At the end of the day a rifle having slightly better sights or a more comfortable stock doesn’t win engagements.
@@mauer594 I’m saying that realistically speaking there isn’t enough actual quantitative difference to make that distinction beyond just personal preferences like what type of sights you find easiest on the eyes and over all “feel”.
The Lee Enfield actions are actually quite a big weaker than the P14/P17 action. There's a reason why the P14/P17 action is used to create African big game rifles, they're very heavy and over engineered. The open sight on the Lee Enfield is superior though.
From what I understand, the M1917's main detractor is its weight. It is significantly heavier than the Springfield. Otherwise, it seems the superior rifle to me as well. I have one at my local gunsmith getting unsporterized right now, and I already have an 03A3, so hopefully I can compare the two myself soon. Having said all that, I really like the Springfield, though it does beat the shoulder pretty good due to being relatively light.
I learned how stacking swivels work with a pile of 1917s from my pop’s American Legion post - they asked him to clean them up and prep them for a parade, and given that he had some gunsmithing experience (and a correspondence course certificate to back that up), I got to meet a bunch of Rock Island M1917s in the living room.
While it’s possible to load an extra round, I suspect that, in combat, soldiers loaded a stripper clip without topping it off. Breaking up a clip to add a single round during a reload would cost the soldier time. Now, topping off the magazine during a lull in combat could afford the chance to load a sixth round, but you’re not going to do that under stress.
My dad has two P17's and I have one. Mine was my grandfather's; he replaced the stock with a nice walnut sporter stock and added a Weaver scope way back in the day when these rifles were cheap enough to viably modify. Both he and my dad swore up and down it was better than the 03's and 03A3's they owned. I don't have much time on an 03 but man my grandpop's P17 is obscenely accurate and fun to shoot
Well, what do you know, I just got my new 1917 serviced the other day. There was an original Marksman Training plate in the internal magazine. You don't see that eveyday.
The claims are all over the place. His unit was armed with the M1917 but he may have been allowed to carry an M1903. We’ll likely never know with certainty as his rifle was stolen.
To be honest I somehow don’t see an officer allowing a Private to carry a different rifle from the one the rest of his unit were issued with unless it’s for a specific purpose, I know York was an excellent marksman but so were many other soldiers at the time and they used the rifle they were issued with, and I doubt if the concept of the “Designated Marksman” within a platoon that we have nowadays existed back then.
@@davidbelzer York is apparently on record as saying he did not like the Enfield 1917 and much preferred the Springfield ‘03, but as I said in my previous post I seriously doubt that his opinion would have mattered where the rifle he was issued with was concerned especially before he earned his MoH.
The primary weaknesses of the 1903 are a) the firing pins, while easier to replace, were prone to break at the point where they mounted to the striker, and b) the thin front sight sans protective ears or hood was prone to bend and/or break. As to which is better, open or aperture sights, there are pros and cons to each. I've shot a fair number of combat rifle exercises with each, and prefer the P17.
@@bravo0105 Of course the A3 had the much improved rear sight. In WWII the Springfield still had an open notch in front of the receiver. It is likely that the experience with the Enflield's aperture sight mounted behind the receiver directly influenced the A3 and future rifles.
I have an original Winchester made Model of 1917 and an Eddystone that was sporterized...both are great rifles. I also have an original bayonet and scabbard for it. I cannot understand why, when the USMC and US Army were looking around for a sniper rifle in WWII, they didn't use the Model of 1917? The bolt handle was already turned down, it was very accurate, just grind off the rear sight, tap it and mount a scope...instead they played with the M-1 Garand and the 03 Springfield, neither of which were very good for it.
Could you fit 7th in if you slid it into the chamber and then pushed down the top round in the magazine so the bolt rides over the top? Thats how you can fit a 6th round into a savage arms 110. You would have the extractor have to flex around the rim of the case. In a rimless case like 3006 thats not terrible on the gun.
This makes me wonder how many .30-06 or .308 rounds would go into a Lee-Enfield 10 round mag Since there is an extra round every 5 rounds because of the rim, could we expect a US Lee to be 12 rounds ? And +1 in the chamber 13 round rifle that would be very cool
The 7.62mm NATO (i.e. .308) Lee Enfield was very much a thing, but it wasn't that simple. A new magazine was needed to cope with the reduced taper and shorter round. See BoTR here th-cam.com/video/dFA3SGO2AU0/w-d-xo.html discussing the mag in detail, and here's Ian on the adopted version. the L42A1 th-cam.com/video/6tFEXzzilOg/w-d-xo.html
I'm sure you would find ones that liked both, or disliked one or the other, for whatever reason, just like GI's and Marines have their opinions now about their weapons.
I grew up around a lot of 29th Division veterans who were deer hunters. They loved the 1917's for that purpose, better than the 03's, better than the Garrands they used in the war. Deer, of course, don't shoot back so there's no need for suppressing fire, but they were one-shot-school hunters who took pride in their marksmanship, and a sporterized 1917 was their preferred choice.
I had found one on a gun shops website a 1917 immediately went to said gun shop and asked if I could see it cause I didn’t see the rifle on the rack and a guy walks over and picks up a rifle with plastic grey stock sporting a scope the front and rear sight long gone along with wood stock and says here it is and my heart sank and went no thank you
I’ve got a Ross MK3 LC and have found it can load 6 in the magazine and a 7th if you chamber load. I’ve never seen reference to this anywhere and wonder if I’ve got some weird one or something
What a Chad: enters the conversation - makes a statement about the P14 being superior to the Springfield 1903 - refuses to elaborate further leaving everybody picking their hair in the comments - exits the conversation with a sexy smile 😂
As well as vastly superior to the smle. heavy rifle, broken ejector springs, as well as lack of windage adjustment are all drawbacks, however. Trigger is "ok", but not as nice as a 1903, but the safety is easier to use. It's a nice rifle if you ever plan on having to physically hit someone with it. Edit.....the p14 was chambered in an obsolete black powder rimmed cartridge. The M1917 could be considered superior to the 1903, the p14 was hampered by elbonian level lack of foresight.
Probably the biggest advantage of the 1917 over the 1903 was the sights. The 1917 had a big ol battle ready aperture sight that was perfect for getting on target in a hurry. The 1903 has an almost unusable pin prick of a peep sight that was well suited to shooting targets at long range in a competition, but was lacking for practical combat usage. Basically, the 1917 was designed to win wars. The 1903 was designed to win competitions.
@@samhouston1288 and the gemans built a hunting rifle..........thanks, elmer fudd. 😉 The M1917 was designed to be rushed into production. As was the P14. The P13 was designed to shoot slightly flatter and farther than 7x57, in a rifle that wasn't first adopted using a black powder cartridge.
I could be wrong but is there enough play to push the six rounds down in the M1917 so you could put a seventh round in the chamber? The P14 seems like there is no play and when you close the bolt it strips off the fifth round into the chamber? I’ve only owned German Mauser‘s and 1903 Springfields so I haven’t been able to play with one of these to confirm or deny this.
a Great Grand Uncle fought in World War One.. I had his marksmanship book from Boot camp, and a 1913 copy of his issued book on marksmanship. Dang them Doughboys were good at shootin... A few years back, I found a sporterized 1917 Enfield. I Already had a stock thanks to a cousin who had a spare. A few parts from Numrich Arms, and some work (and 1 barrel band from eBay) and I have a standard 1917. Uncle Ben…this is for you.
Most any Mauser can do this. Including the k31 and p17 you can get 6+1 in. Also most any enfield. An sks is not only 10+1 the mag will straight up hold the 11th NOT a mosin. You get 5 comrade. Not an M1 garand either.
Can you close the bolt on a full magazine? (without stripping a round) that would get you one extra. My M44 mosin is sooo close to holding 5+1. Idk why I ask. Just curious. I know some guns you can toss an extra bullet into the chamber.
Ah, The M-1917, the American Enfield. Back when I had a FFL-03 (C&R) license, someone had his father ship one through me for him. I never fired it, but found it quite interesting.
This rifle is usually comparisoned in detail online with the Lee Enfield rifle but would a better comparison not be with the Mauser 98? They are closer in essential mechanism.
Well, the M1903 was so much a Mauser that Mauser werke itself sued the US govt. for brevet infringements and won in court like 250.000$+ 0,75$ royalities for each rifle produced. So is this Mauser-inspired, British designed, US-produced rifle more Mauser than the actual US-produced copy of the Mauser? To be honest, in all this MauserNess, I can't see why compare that to a SMLE.
They didn't use to be. I never saw one quite as cheap as I used to see Lee-Enfields (buy one get a second free, here's a couple cases of Milsurp .303, oh hey what kinds of bayonets do you want, go ahead and rummage in the boxes of web gear and stripper clips for whatever you want, that'll be $100), but the 1917s were pretty reliably in the $200-300 range. Ah, days gone by...
Didnt John C Garand originally chamber the m1 in 276, and it could hold ten. Then McArthur said to change it to 30-06 because the military still had tons and tons, then it could only fit 8.
Your story is correct except that you're refering to two different cartridges. 276Enfield and 276Pederson, I don't know the exact differences but I don't believe interchangeable.
@@richardelliott9511 no they aren't, other than the caliber. I was just showing another incident of the capicity changing just because of the different chambering. In one case you can get more rounds , in the other less.
@@JamesThomas-gg6il sorry that I missed your point. With your not fully identifying the 276 cartridge which you were refering to lead me mistake to your point. Referring to 276 Pederson, you are of course perfectly correct. Happy days!
During inspections, the M17 did not have a magazine cutoff, so often the private got gigged because he fumbled with the follower holding the bolt open at the end of inspection arms. The smart privates learned to place a small coin in the magazine to hold the follower down and thus allow the bolt to go home smartly. Extra potato pealing for fumbling the end of inspection bolt closing. Got this from my great uncle who was a sergeant in France until a piece of shrapnel took out one eye.
Well, seems the kind of "wartime hack" that spread quickly in trenches. "you know, buddy? You can squeeze an extra round in there. The huns have only five, that sixth could save your life"
The one extra round doesn’t matter because you’re doing all of your reloading from 5 round pre packaged clips. I bet soldiers weren’t even aware that the magazine could hold 6 since they’d never be loading from loose rounds anyway.
ive owned and shot both the 1903a3 and the m1917 and i prefer the m1917 by far! the recoil from the 1903 was not fun. but i could shoot the m1917 all day!
While having fun running around I dropped into prone once and proceeded to fire the 1903 off my collarbone instead of getting proper shoulder placement. That stung pretty fierce
I never gave this any thought as to why my 1917 held 6 rounds. This makes complete sense. Now to try and cram six 30-'06 dummies into one of my Mosin-Nagants....
That 6:5 ratio holds for .303 traditional enfield 10rds vs Indian 2a1 .308 12rds. I know they are different magazines. But they are he same length/size profile.
Very interesting although I believe they didn't load with 6 as standard and the reason for thinking this, is a show in the UK called Dad's Army, a comedy about the home guard in WW2, they are issued with M1917 Enfields and would only use 5 rounds in each rifle. As mutiple people on the show were in the home guard and they used the weapons extensively and talk about the capacity of every other gun accurately, I'm sure they would have loaded them as they were used too and if not they would have definitely made a Joke about it. Edit the show goes from the start of the war where they don't even have rifles all the way to when they are well stocked yet only ever use 5 rounds.
half the time each man only had 5 rounds. Bear in mind no home production of .30/06. Notice also the red band around the stock? That was to distingush them from P14 which was issued to second line military units. The bayonet also has two deep vertical grooves in the hilt ,.
@@51WCDodge yes they mention that in the show, however they aren't at the start of the war for the whole show, but will only ever use 5 rounds even when they are using blanks for practice or real rounds target practice. So the only answer is they only ever used 5 rounds, it makes sense, it adds a level of safety as there isn't one in the chamber and the stripper clips are still 5 rounds.
Home Guard policy for the P14 was to routinely only load from the charger so 5 rounds of .300” at a time. Quicker to reload another charger when needed than fumble for loose rounds.
It is amazing how convenient it was for the US that they had production lines set up and ready to go for a military rifle easily converted to .30-06 which was no longer badly needed by the British as SMLE production had gotten up to snuff.
And could buy the whole lot on the cheap! If I remember correctly the British paid about $21, 000,000 up front for machinery and material to produce the P14 contracts. The US bought the lines for about $9,000,000. A large number of P17 ended up in UK during WW2 , issued to Home Gaurd units. P14 went to second line military units. The P17 had a broad red band painted around the stock to distingush them.
@Shaun Young There were plenty of convenient coincidence just before and during WWI that facilitated American companies and affluent investors capitalizing upon Allied demand and the eventual US entry into the war. P14/M1917 production is a perfect example; I love the rifle but it is an embodiment of the catastrophe driven by the ruling class.
So the capacity is a consequence of the 303 rim and not the fact that the British 7mm cartridge was bigger dimensionally? I mean: could you put 6 .30-06 cartridges in an original P13?
The P13 never entered serious production and certainly not with the companies that wound up making the M1917 or P14, so it's unlikely they copied the dimensions from that directly.
@webtoedman But… imagine the hunting & sporting potential of suurplus weapons and ammo derived from the cartridge. Would have had way better longevity than the rimmed .303 It had performance similar to the 30-06, so a bit more tinkering and development would have fixed it nicely.
Othais, do you have any documents or records or journals showing that any soldiers loaded their rifle to six rounds? Was it a common occurrence? Would officers yell at privates if they loaded six? How hard would it be to 3d print 6-round 1917 clips?
Hurry! Hurry! Hurry! Be the first at your gun club to have our exclusive 6 round Stripper Clips! Amaze your friends. The girls will flock to your shooting bench! Only $29.95…😎
‘I know what you’re thinking, did he fire 6 shots or only 5, but seeing this is an Enfield 1917 and can blow your head clean off, you gotta ask yourself one question. Do I feel lucky, well do ya Boche?’
He said while munching on a hot dog.
Great flic
"seeing as this is an Enfield, the finest rifles in the world, and will blow your head clean off..."
When I first saw the title, I thought it was a Michael Myers' reference.
If a man's chasing another man with a field shovel in one hand and a grenade in the other, I can safely assume he's not collecting for the Salvation Army.
Something nobody ever mentions is that there is still room in the magazine to push the 6th round down far enough to close the bolt. This makes it possible to load a 7th round into the chamber.
The og ghost loading.
Is loading a seventh round advisable? People tell me that those Mauser claw extractors arent designed to snap over a cartridge and might fail
@@simonni4483 it can be done, but it is not advisable.
@@simonni4483 You could just open the bolt a bit after you closed to see if the extractor snapped over and is extracting.
@@simonni4483 I think in war time ideas about what is advisable and getting an extra round is a no brainer
I always found the saga of those Enfields confusing- here you gave me a potted history that answered all my questions plus the core message about the rounds, which I never knew. Cool stuff.
Factoid: A lot of P17 ended up back in UK during the seconed round. Mostly issued to Home Gaurd units. P14 were issued to second line military uinits. In order to distingush the two a broad red band was painted around the stocks of the P17's
Very true, they are used in the comedy Dad's Army, however interestingly enough in that they only ever fire 5 rounds and as mutiple people making the show and acting in it were in the home guard they would have known how many rounds go into it, especially as they get the capacity correct on everything else they use. So they may hold 6 but it seems standard practice was 5
@@Alex-cw3rz Makes sense since the ammunition was still in five-round clips or in packages of loose ammunition that divided neatly by five but usually not six, and Home Guard especially were not flush with lots of ammunition at the best of times. I have seen US and British packets of .30'06 and they tend to be 20, 25, or 50 rounds. The "exception" would be the 60-round bandoliers that were widely used by Americans before the adoption of the M1 Garand, but those bandoliers contained 12 clips of five-rounds each, not 60 separate cartridges. When you might be lucky to get fifty bullets a man for your Home Guard Unit, one minded their cartridges.
My old man was in the Home Guard. He remembered the grease that the P17s were packed in. Not to fondly, to be honest.
Also in Canaidia. Those being marked with a Canadan broad arrow.
Some of those where send to Denmark after ww2, there they where issued to the danish homeguard, my grandpa had one at home together with a swedish mashinepistol as a member.
You can actually do 6+1 in the M1917. It's pretty sweet actually.
How
@@lambsauce5312 Push the 6 rounds down and load your 7th into the chamber, then push the bolt over the rounds (making sure you don't pick one up, hence why you push them down).
The Lebel has a similar technique that makes it 8+1+1: load 8 into the tube, leave one in the chamber, and one on the elevator, then when closing, don't lift the elevator. Boom, SMLE capacity (this wasn't done because the Lebel has no safety, but it is a real thing).
I'm brand new to the channel (Ian sent me) but I gotta say, I was immediately struck by the fact that you put the fast forward speed in the corner. I don't know why that stuck out to me so much but it made the whole experience just a little bit nicer.
That's not a "fast forward speed" button. That button is to skip to the next video in the TH-cam recommended video list on the left side of your screen.
20% greater ammo capacity is nothing to sniff at...
That is a truly gorgeous M1917. I used to own one, a Winchester made one with a cartouche on the stock that indicated it had been rebuilt at the San Antonio Arsenal at some point. It had a very good bore, which a lot of M1917s don't have, but a fair amount of the finish was worn off, and the stock was nearly black with age.
Very helpful feature in VERDUN.
Bloke on the Range's video regarding the P14/M1917 is interesting too. He has a 1917 that's fitted with a P14 bolt and a 1917 extractor, apparently from being rearsenaled.
Love these clips! Hopefuly they will get you lots of subs
Having never fired a P17 or an original 1903 (although I have one of the cheapened ww2 variations) I can say that the Enfield just looks like a better gun. Longer sight radius, aperture sights, stronger action, extra round. The only detractor might be the oddball SMLE wrist/ grip setup. Although I personally have no problem with that setup, history has shown that the semi pistol grip stock is the superior setup for bolt action rifles.
Doubtful that any of those qualities actually matter at all. At the end of the day a rifle having slightly better sights or a more comfortable stock doesn’t win engagements.
@@simplymadness8849 It does when you're talking about which rifle is a better gun.
@@mauer594 I’m saying that realistically speaking there isn’t enough actual quantitative difference to make that distinction beyond just personal preferences like what type of sights you find easiest on the eyes and over all “feel”.
The Lee Enfield actions are actually quite a big weaker than the P14/P17 action. There's a reason why the P14/P17 action is used to create African big game rifles, they're very heavy and over engineered. The open sight on the Lee Enfield is superior though.
From what I understand, the M1917's main detractor is its weight. It is significantly heavier than the Springfield. Otherwise, it seems the superior rifle to me as well. I have one at my local gunsmith getting unsporterized right now, and I already have an 03A3, so hopefully I can compare the two myself soon. Having said all that, I really like the Springfield, though it does beat the shoulder pretty good due to being relatively light.
I like how your gun wall has become progressively more crowded over the years.
I like the new Clips video series, great idea. The opening music is fantastic.
Love the clips! thanks
Nice little video on an interesting 'artefact' of conversion
I learned how stacking swivels work with a pile of 1917s from my pop’s American Legion post - they asked him to clean them up and prep them for a parade, and given that he had some gunsmithing experience (and a correspondence course certificate to back that up), I got to meet a bunch of Rock Island M1917s in the living room.
These new clips are awesome!
Thank you for the video.
Careful with those snap caps, Othias! I’ve tore the rim off one of those with my SAKOs extractor.
I appreciate that the show is called clips but he's talking about a magazine.
I see what you did there
While it’s possible to load an extra round, I suspect that, in combat, soldiers loaded a stripper clip without topping it off. Breaking up a clip to add a single round during a reload would cost the soldier time. Now, topping off the magazine during a lull in combat could afford the chance to load a sixth round, but you’re not going to do that under stress.
My dad has two P17's and I have one. Mine was my grandfather's; he replaced the stock with a nice walnut sporter stock and added a Weaver scope way back in the day when these rifles were cheap enough to viably modify. Both he and my dad swore up and down it was better than the 03's and 03A3's they owned. I don't have much time on an 03 but man my grandpop's P17 is obscenely accurate and fun to shoot
US 1903 vs US 1917: idc I still want both
You have the right attitude. Nothing beats personal experience.
Great clip
Nice sharing thank you so much
Well, what do you know, I just got my new 1917 serviced the other day. There was an original Marksman Training plate in the internal magazine. You don't see that eveyday.
OK,what does a Marksman training plate do ?
@@paulmanson253 Think of it as an insert that turns it into a single shot rifle
@@essex3777 Oh,OK .
Damnit Othias... when I heard about "Clips", I thought you were going to do a video on clips 😀.
You could also stick one up the spout and pushing down on the rounds in the mag close the bolt and thus have 7 rounds .
First milsurp i ever bought was a 1917 sporter, its pretty accurate, just has a god awful height over bore
That’s the rifle that Alvin York used, not the Springfield 1903.
The claims are all over the place. His unit was armed with the M1917 but he may have been allowed to carry an M1903. We’ll likely never know with certainty as his rifle was stolen.
To be honest I somehow don’t see an officer allowing a Private to carry a different rifle from the one the rest of his unit were issued with unless it’s for a specific purpose, I know York was an excellent marksman but so were many other soldiers at the time and they used the rifle they were issued with, and I doubt if the concept of the “Designated Marksman” within a platoon that we have nowadays existed back then.
In his diary he says that dam British rifle
@@davidbelzer York is apparently on record as saying he did not like the Enfield 1917 and much preferred the Springfield ‘03, but as I said in my previous post I seriously doubt that his opinion would have mattered where the rifle he was issued with was concerned especially before he earned his MoH.
The primary weaknesses of the 1903 are a) the firing pins, while easier to replace, were prone to break at the point where they mounted to the striker, and b) the thin front sight sans protective ears or hood was prone to bend and/or break. As to which is better, open or aperture sights, there are pros and cons to each. I've shot a fair number of combat rifle exercises with each, and prefer the P17.
I can’t imagine fighting on Guadalcanal with the tiny battle sight of the M1903.
@@bravo0105 Of course the A3 had the much improved rear sight. In WWII the Springfield still had an open notch in front of the receiver.
It is likely that the experience with the Enflield's aperture sight mounted behind the receiver directly influenced the A3 and future rifles.
@@88porpoise Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Marines in WW2 mostly had original M1903s, not A3s.
I have an original Winchester made Model of 1917 and an Eddystone that was sporterized...both are great rifles. I also have an original bayonet and scabbard for it. I cannot understand why, when the USMC and US Army were looking around for a sniper rifle in WWII, they didn't use the Model of 1917? The bolt handle was already turned down, it was very accurate, just grind off the rear sight, tap it and mount a scope...instead they played with the M-1 Garand and the 03 Springfield, neither of which were very good for it.
Could you fit 7th in if you slid it into the chamber and then pushed down the top round in the magazine so the bolt rides over the top? Thats how you can fit a 6th round into a savage arms 110. You would have the extractor have to flex around the rim of the case. In a rimless case like 3006 thats not terrible on the gun.
Yes
Interesting. Thank you for that - I have been thinking about getting a 1917...
This makes me wonder how many .30-06 or .308 rounds would go into a Lee-Enfield 10 round mag
Since there is an extra round every 5 rounds because of the rim, could we expect a US Lee to be 12 rounds ? And +1 in the chamber
13 round rifle that would be very cool
Plenty of room at the back but you'd run out of room at the front with the less tapered, rimless cartridges.
@@Reactordrone And since “there ain’t no such thing as a US Lee” we’ll never know. But of course there is that thing about no room as you state…
The 7.62mm NATO (i.e. .308) Lee Enfield was very much a thing, but it wasn't that simple. A new magazine was needed to cope with the reduced taper and shorter round. See BoTR here th-cam.com/video/dFA3SGO2AU0/w-d-xo.html discussing the mag in detail, and here's Ian on the adopted version. the L42A1 th-cam.com/video/6tFEXzzilOg/w-d-xo.html
Quick question.
Were UK and US sued for Mauser action in P13 and P17?
The M1903 Springfield is an exquisite target rifle...The M1917 Enfield is a Battle Rifle!
I'd like to speak to Veterans before I started arguing about which rifle was better, but sadly that's not an option anymore.
I'm sure you would find ones that liked both, or disliked one or the other, for whatever reason, just like GI's and Marines have their opinions now about their weapons.
@@richarddicristi3285 Yup.
I grew up around a lot of 29th Division veterans who were deer hunters. They loved the 1917's for that purpose, better than the 03's, better than the Garrands they used in the war. Deer, of course, don't shoot back so there's no need for suppressing fire, but they were one-shot-school hunters who took pride in their marksmanship, and a sporterized 1917 was their preferred choice.
I had found one on a gun shops website a 1917 immediately went to said gun shop and asked if I could see it cause I didn’t see the rifle on the rack and a guy walks over and picks up a rifle with plastic grey stock sporting a scope the front and rear sight long gone along with wood stock and says here it is and my heart sank and went no thank you
Up with C&rsenal, down with the algorithm!
cant you have one up the spout to give you the xtra cartridge
the 303 lee enfielsd holds 10 rounds
I’ve got a Ross MK3 LC and have found it can load 6 in the magazine and a 7th if you chamber load. I’ve never seen reference to this anywhere and wonder if I’ve got some weird one or something
Maybe they left the magazine a bit big so it could fit the full 5 rounds in some of the sporting guns in different calibers?
What a Chad: enters the conversation - makes a statement about the P14 being superior to the Springfield 1903 - refuses to elaborate further leaving everybody picking their hair in the comments - exits the conversation with a sexy smile 😂
As well as vastly superior to the smle.
heavy rifle, broken ejector springs, as well as lack of windage adjustment are all drawbacks, however. Trigger is "ok", but not as nice as a 1903, but the safety is easier to use.
It's a nice rifle if you ever plan on having to physically hit someone with it.
Edit.....the p14 was chambered in an obsolete black powder rimmed cartridge. The M1917 could be considered superior to the 1903, the p14 was hampered by elbonian level lack of foresight.
@webtoedman 70 grains of fine grained *black powder*
Then cordite, but later.
@webtoedmanI'm not sure what the communication problem is...........but the original load was black powder, you agree?
Probably the biggest advantage of the 1917 over the 1903 was the sights. The 1917 had a big ol battle ready aperture sight that was perfect for getting on target in a hurry.
The 1903 has an almost unusable pin prick of a peep sight that was well suited to shooting targets at long range in a competition, but was lacking for practical combat usage.
Basically, the 1917 was designed to win wars. The 1903 was designed to win competitions.
@@samhouston1288 and the gemans built a hunting rifle..........thanks, elmer fudd. 😉
The M1917 was designed to be rushed into production. As was the P14. The P13 was designed to shoot slightly flatter and farther than 7x57, in a rifle that wasn't first adopted using a black powder cartridge.
You know, I always assumed that it was that the case was smaller or something, but neat to learn that it was the rim that made the difference.
but can you push the 6th round down..... and close the bolt on an empty chamber (or +1 the rifle.... for a total of 7?)
Yes
I could be wrong but is there enough play to push the six rounds down in the M1917 so you could put a seventh round in the chamber? The P14 seems like there is no play and when you close the bolt it strips off the fifth round into the chamber? I’ve only owned German Mauser‘s and 1903 Springfields so I haven’t been able to play with one of these to confirm or deny this.
Yeah, you can run it 6+1.
I gave a P14 and you can get a sixth round in
@@impliedtomato8760 so you can over ride a full mag of 5 and put a 6th in is what you’re saying? In a p14?
a Great Grand Uncle fought in World War One.. I had his marksmanship book from Boot camp, and a 1913 copy of his issued book on marksmanship. Dang them Doughboys were good at shootin...
A few years back, I found a sporterized 1917 Enfield. I Already had a stock thanks to a cousin who had a spare. A few parts from Numrich Arms, and some work (and 1 barrel band from eBay) and I have a standard 1917. Uncle Ben…this is for you.
Did something like that with my Dad's 8mm Mauser from WWII.
I need to find one. Grandpa on Mom's side was in WW1, never got deployed to Europe (we have his paperwork). Chances are good he had an M1917.
Swedish Mauser could get 5 in magazine and 1 in chamber if You push the top cartridge down when closing the bolt.
Most any Mauser can do this. Including the k31 and p17 you can get 6+1 in.
Also most any enfield.
An sks is not only 10+1 the mag will straight up hold the 11th
NOT a mosin. You get 5 comrade.
Not an M1 garand either.
The correct answer is 7 you can load 6 in the magazine push down and manually load a 7th round in the chamber
Can you close the bolt on a full magazine? (without stripping a round) that would get you one extra. My M44 mosin is sooo close to holding 5+1. Idk why I ask. Just curious. I know some guns you can toss an extra bullet into the chamber.
yeah you cant really +1 a Mosin.
a Mauser action though you absolutely can
Can you single-load one in the chamber and keep 6 rounds in the magazine for a total capacity of seven (7)?
Yes but why? Are the Jerries coming at you with bayonets fixed?
@@samiam619 Let me guess, you carry a 1911?
Ah, The M-1917, the American Enfield. Back when I had a FFL-03 (C&R) license, someone had his father ship one through me for him. I never fired it, but found it quite interesting.
Keep these coming
This rifle is usually comparisoned in detail online with the Lee Enfield rifle but would a better comparison not be with the Mauser 98? They are closer in essential mechanism.
Well, the M1903 was so much a Mauser that Mauser werke itself sued the US govt. for brevet infringements and won in court like 250.000$+ 0,75$ royalities for each rifle produced.
So is this Mauser-inspired, British designed, US-produced rifle more Mauser than the actual US-produced copy of the Mauser?
To be honest, in all this MauserNess, I can't see why compare that to a SMLE.
@@ulissedazante5748 all of that, yes agreed and more mauser than Enfield in function and design. 03/17 and Lee enfield are just closer politically!
My gewehr 96/11 can just barely fit a 7th round. It makes loading 6 off a charger much easier than the snug fit of a k31 magazine
Excellent, and i really like the closing music, can we have a longer close out please
I do note that the P14 became the standard rifle of the Royal Afghan Army interwar.
Nice
Some guy named Erwin Rommel once said "in a firefight, the winner will be he who has one more round in his magazine....." (or words to that effect).
And then you load another one directly into the chamber and you have 7 rounds.
Consider my belted magnum made from a p14 action. Three rounds was a struggle, rimless or not ;)
Man, now if only I could find one for cheap.
US service-rifle prices have spiked, unfortunately. People with cash know where the dollar’s value is going.
Don't you hate it when "War Were Declared" in such inopportune moments.
I’ve always wanted a P17 but, man are they expensive.
They didn't use to be. I never saw one quite as cheap as I used to see Lee-Enfields (buy one get a second free, here's a couple cases of Milsurp .303, oh hey what kinds of bayonets do you want, go ahead and rummage in the boxes of web gear and stripper clips for whatever you want, that'll be $100), but the 1917s were pretty reliably in the $200-300 range. Ah, days gone by...
Great, post this just before my bed time. Now I won't be able to sleep not knowing which is better. :(
If you can, get both and see for yourself.
Didnt John C Garand originally chamber the m1 in 276, and it could hold ten. Then McArthur said to change it to 30-06 because the military still had tons and tons, then it could only fit 8.
Your story is correct except that you're refering to two different cartridges. 276Enfield and 276Pederson, I don't know the exact differences but I don't believe interchangeable.
@@richardelliott9511 no they aren't, other than the caliber. I was just showing another incident of the capicity changing just because of the different chambering. In one case you can get more rounds , in the other less.
@@JamesThomas-gg6il sorry that I missed your point. With your not fully identifying the 276 cartridge which you were refering to lead me mistake to your point. Referring to 276 Pederson, you are of course perfectly correct. Happy days!
During inspections, the M17 did not have a magazine cutoff, so often the private got gigged because he fumbled with the follower holding the bolt open at the end of inspection arms. The smart privates learned to place a small coin in the magazine to hold the follower down and thus allow the bolt to go home smartly. Extra potato pealing for fumbling the end of inspection bolt closing. Got this from my great uncle who was a sergeant in France until a piece of shrapnel took out one eye.
Yargh
The 'penny depressor' is still a thing in the Small Arms School Corps :)
Man I adore the pattern 17.
I took mine to the range and was able to fit 7 😋
I wonder how often soldiers carried loose rounds and topped off magazines regardless is capacity.
Well, seems the kind of "wartime hack" that spread quickly in trenches.
"you know, buddy? You can squeeze an extra round in there. The huns have only five, that sixth could save your life"
Interesting! I didnt think of this and never heard it before.
God bless all here.
The one extra round doesn’t matter because you’re doing all of your reloading from 5 round pre packaged clips. I bet soldiers weren’t even aware that the magazine could hold 6 since they’d never be loading from loose rounds anyway.
Love a P13
ive owned and shot both the 1903a3 and the m1917 and i prefer the m1917 by far! the recoil from the 1903 was not fun. but i could shoot the m1917 all day!
While having fun running around I dropped into prone once and proceeded to fire the 1903 off my collarbone instead of getting proper shoulder placement.
That stung pretty fierce
I guess you could load a full clip, depress the rounds, and close the bolt on an empty chamber, thus making it "cruiser ready" 😖
I have a P14 and I quite like it. It's in .303 and it's fairly accurate and real heavy.
M1917 Enfield, that rifle is awesome.
I never gave this any thought as to why my 1917 held 6 rounds. This makes complete sense. Now to try and cram six 30-'06 dummies into one of my Mosin-Nagants....
Would .30-06 be too long for the magazine? If it is, try .308.
So if you had modified the SMLE you could have got 12 rounds of .30-06 in it..
I think you're right -- doesn't the Ishapore 2A1 (essentially a 7.62x51mm SMLE) have a 12-round mag?
Nope. The SMLE magazine is just a little too short for .30-06
Yes, you can depress the 6th round in the magazine and finagle a 7th into the chamber.
I really don’t need the trouble. It’s not like the paper target will come at me if 6 doesn’t do the job…
That 6:5 ratio holds for .303 traditional enfield 10rds vs Indian 2a1 .308 12rds. I know they are different magazines. But they are he same length/size profile.
.308 Winchester is basically a shorter .30'06, but they share similar dimensions otherwise, so it makes sense.
God I want a 2A1 so bad. Literally an Enfield but ammo is slightly cheaper
Very interesting although I believe they didn't load with 6 as standard and the reason for thinking this, is a show in the UK called Dad's Army, a comedy about the home guard in WW2, they are issued with M1917 Enfields and would only use 5 rounds in each rifle. As mutiple people on the show were in the home guard and they used the weapons extensively and talk about the capacity of every other gun accurately, I'm sure they would have loaded them as they were used too and if not they would have definitely made a Joke about it.
Edit the show goes from the start of the war where they don't even have rifles all the way to when they are well stocked yet only ever use 5 rounds.
half the time each man only had 5 rounds. Bear in mind no home production of .30/06. Notice also the red band around the stock? That was to distingush them from P14 which was issued to second line military units. The bayonet also has two deep vertical grooves in the hilt ,.
@@51WCDodge yes they mention that in the show, however they aren't at the start of the war for the whole show, but will only ever use 5 rounds even when they are using blanks for practice or real rounds target practice. So the only answer is they only ever used 5 rounds, it makes sense, it adds a level of safety as there isn't one in the chamber and the stripper clips are still 5 rounds.
Home Guard policy for the P14 was to routinely only load from the charger so 5 rounds of .300” at a time. Quicker to reload another charger when needed than fumble for loose rounds.
This is what my dad did his small arms qualification on in the USN in 1950.
It is amazing how convenient it was for the US that they had production lines set up and ready to go for a military rifle easily converted to .30-06 which was no longer badly needed by the British as SMLE production had gotten up to snuff.
Convenient is an odd word choice but okay
And could buy the whole lot on the cheap! If I remember correctly the British paid about $21, 000,000 up front for machinery and material to produce the P14 contracts. The US bought the lines for about $9,000,000. A large number of P17 ended up in UK during WW2 , issued to Home Gaurd units. P14 went to second line military units. The P17 had a broad red band painted around the stock to distingush them.
@Shaun Young There were plenty of convenient coincidence just before and during WWI that facilitated American companies and affluent investors capitalizing upon Allied demand and the eventual US entry into the war. P14/M1917 production is a perfect example; I love the rifle but it is an embodiment of the catastrophe driven by the ruling class.
Just look at an 03A3 and you'll see the 1917 had better sights, they modified the 03's design to have rear aperture sights.
They did the same on the No4 Enfields, but neither have those protective wings on the receiver bridge like the P17 does
So the capacity is a consequence of the 303 rim and not the fact that the British 7mm cartridge was bigger dimensionally? I mean: could you put 6 .30-06 cartridges in an original P13?
Well, the .30-06 is a little too long but the question is still reasonable I think. To what extent did the magazine dimensions change?
The .276 case's diameter is actually pretty close to the rim diameter of .303. So that magazine could likely hold five .276.
@@88porpoise So it's more .276 than .303 doing the work, thanks
The P13 never entered serious production and certainly not with the companies that wound up making the M1917 or P14, so it's unlikely they copied the dimensions from that directly.
@@Gunsbeerfreedom87 But did they get the capacity from that indirectly, is my question.
That .276 round would have been awesome. If only they waited a year or so before starting a world size fight
@webtoedman But… imagine the hunting & sporting potential of suurplus weapons and ammo derived from the cartridge. Would have had way better longevity than the rimmed .303
It had performance similar to the 30-06, so a bit more tinkering and development would have fixed it nicely.
Cool
Othais, do you have any documents or records or journals showing that any soldiers loaded their rifle to six rounds? Was it a common occurrence? Would officers yell at privates if they loaded six? How hard would it be to 3d print 6-round 1917 clips?
Beard man teach goodly
HiGh CaPaCiTy AsSaUlT cLiP
Great rifle , 👍
The biggest six-gun ever in US service?
Winchester Model 12 Trench Gun with bayonet attachment.
No that would be M32 MGL. Six shot revolver style 40mm grenade launcher.
I'm gonna regret reading these comments aren't I?
I was right
Iraq Veteran 8888 got a 7th round inside the M-1917.
Yeah I already know this from Battlefield 1
Hurry! Hurry! Hurry! Be the first at your gun club to have our exclusive 6 round Stripper Clips! Amaze your friends. The girls will flock to your shooting bench! Only $29.95…😎
👍👍👍
Grug had pee17. Gave as gift. Much regret but make fren happy. Frenship priceless to Grug.
I’ll bite…what’s a “Grug”?
@@samiam619 Me Grug....