Moons of Ice and Fire 1: Shadow Heart Mother
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ก.ย. 2024
- Who - or what - was the Night's Queen? Surprisingly, it is Melisandre - and Gilly - who shed light on the mystery. This series begins our foray into the icy side of the ASOIAF symbolism matrix: the Others, the Heart of Winter, ice dragons, and Night's King.
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Title art image: "The Queen's Army" by Elle Anne
"One God, Two Gods, Red God, Blue God: Melisandre and the Night's Queen" by Durran Durrandon of Westeros.org forum:
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"Heirarchy of the Others" by Voice of the First Men of the Last Hearth forum:
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Going back and listening to the old podcasts. The algorithm needs to be aware of these gems.
Exactly. I try to leave a comment on the videos as well. Hoping that might help.
Thanks for getting this out today. Much rather be in the fake terrible world we all love then the real terrible world we live in right now.
Yeah pretty sad day all the way around.
If you think real life isn't as interesting as GOT I recommend the Lacerta Files.
This comment aged well.
Ohoho did this comment age spectacularly
@@SaintHierophantcouldn't have been too bad, I don't even remember what was happening around that time
Best ASoIaF content on youtube. You're the man LML.
thanks my friend I love what I do
When she tells Dany the moon egg theory and then they follow it up saying it’s the sun’s wife I wonder if they’re both right. Two fire/ice moons “wed” to the sun
Wonderful content as always! Have you done any looking into how the Northlands and Dorne are fire/ice reflections? Are Sunspear and Winterfell fire/ice equivalents?
Here’s a quote:
“Archmaester Brude, who was born and raised in the shadow city that huddles beneath the crumbling walls of Sunspear, once famously observed that Dorne has more in common with the distant North than either does with the realms that lie between them. "One is hot and one is cold, yet these ancient kingdoms of sand and snow are set apart from the rest of Westeros by history, culture, and tradition. Both are thinly peopled, compared to the lands betwixt. Both cling stubbornly to their own laws and their own traditions. Neither was ever truly conquered by the dragons. The King in the North accepted Aegon Targaryen as his overlord peaceably, whilst Dorne resisted the might of the Targaryens valiantly for almost two hundred years, before finally submitting to the Iron Throne through marriage. Dornishmen and Northmen alike are derided as savages by the ignorant of the five 'civilized' kingdoms, and celebrated for their valor by those who have crossed swords with them.”
I love these ideas; especially the comparison between melisandre and the night queen. I feel like there's definitely something there. Also the nicknames for patreon just keep getting cooler.
When you spoke of the tears running down Mel’s face in the reading of her as ice instead of fire, all I could think of was Bran’s dream about the “curtain at the end of the world” and his his tears were so cold they burned. Would love to hear your thoughts on his that fits in.
@Lucifer Means Lightbringer I got my longtime bestfriend into the novels about two years ago, and he finished ADwD recently. He is a planetary geologist for a company whose name isn't too (cough) important. When we've been speaking on Discord, he's got some theory that Planetos is actually the moon and the moon Planetos is looking on in the sky may be the planet. I keep telling him to write down the references for me because it sounds cool. It's something I wouldn't put past GRRM to use subtle details that only people trained in earth and astro based sciences would realize.
Great work ser.
Martin had an ice blue figurine of Melisandre made a for him a few years back. Also, have you done anything on the 'Lion of Night'?
The Lion of Night and the Maiden-made-of-Light had a son named 'God-on-Earth' who lived ten thousand years and reigned as the first emperor of Great Empire of the Dawn (which was in the Dawn Age). When the Bloodstone Emperor usurped her sister, the Maiden-made-of-Light turned her back and the Lion of Night returned with all his wroth to punish the wickedness of man, beginning the Long Night.
-twoiaf ch 110, YiTi
To me, this seems just another analogy;.
*Maiden-made-of-Light = the Moon, obviously
*Lion of Night = the Comet
*God son of the Dawn Empire = the period between the nights.
The last Long Night was maybe 8k years ago, which was when the Lion of Night last appeared. The Lion of Night last appeared before that 10k years prior. Cyclical?
The Lion of Night looks/sounds enough to me like the Demiurge, Yaldabaoth. A fiery lion-faced serpent. Sounds like a Comet to me. His 'demons', meteors.
Whether there was one or two moons, (I still think that there were two), the Comet has played a central part.
Very thought provoking, I gave the 1 moon 2 moons debate some thought. Could Winterfell be an comparison for the moon ? It was burnt and damaged, its walls cracked said to be a shell of a building. With the legend of dragon eggs underneath it ,and Bran potentially seeing a Dragon through Summmer’s eyes.
Also could there be a connection with Harrenhal ?
Yes, absolutely. That Bran chapter in ACOK where WF is burning has all the clues, that's where the cracked shell lines are iirc. I'm going to talk about that in the series at some point. Don't forget Jon the frozen dragon inside there! He's the same symbolism as the idea of dragon eggs under there.
There is similar imagery when Daenerys and the Dothraki bunch find the city of bones in the Red Waste, in Daenerys I of Clash. “A city, Khaleesi, ” they cried. “A city pale as the moon and lovely as a maid. An hour’s ride, no more.” Then a few paragraphs later, "“This city is dead, Khaleesi. Nameless and godless we found it, the gates broken, only wind and flies moving through the streets.”
Hey Durran! Yeah, Vaes Tolorro.. I still can't decide exactly which moon is being depicted there, or even what role Dany is playing. She's wearing the white lion skin, which could be either an ice moon symbol or a sun symbol, and she's following the comet, so she could be parallel to the comet (the last dragon) and hitting the moon city Vaes Tolorro in yet another fire moon destruction reenactment, or is this the ice moon taking a fire moon meteor shrapnel (Dany)? I will figure it out one day I hope.
Yeah, I think we have discussed this elsewhere. This chapter is heavy handed with its symbolism, with Danny sending out her three riders. The first two essential fail, and the third turns with the three "wise men" of Qarth.
The Night's Watch alone has lots of symbolism, like 5 different legends of horrible things happening in Castle Black; and the worst timeline and récord keeping of anything, it's worth an episode of it's own
Your talk of Mel and her shadow children got me thinking. There are many different "Last Hero" accounts all over the world, all with different names based on the language, religion, etc. The name Eldric Shadowchaser got me wondering if this name isn't really symbolic of anything and he was actually chasing shadows and/or the people who made them. This group of heros could have been a cadre of warriors sent all over the world to hunt down the minions of the Bloodstone Emperor who was using his sister to breed shadow babies, similar to Craster using his wives to breed new White Walker fodder babies. Since he (BSE) was the magical practioner, she would be the one weakend from the process as opposed to him losing his life energy. I could take this further but I've got a new novel in the works if this theory doesn't pan out hahaha. Wonderful work as always amigo.
I do think the shadowchaser monicker is self explanatory, yes. Check out this quote:
"The Chamber of the Painted Table was dark and empty when Davos entered; the king would still be at the nightfire, with Melisandre and the queen's men. He knelt and made a fire in the hearth, to drive the chill from the round chamber and chase the shadows back into their corners. Then he went around the room to each window in turn, opening the heavy velvet curtains and unlatching the wooden shutters. The wind came in, strong with the smell of salt and sea, and pulled at his plain brown cloak.
At the north window, he leaned against the sill for a breath of the cold night air, hoping to catch a glimpse of Mad Prendos raising sail, but the sea seemed black and empty as far as the eye could see. Is she gone already? He could only pray that she was, and the boy with her. A half moon was sliding in and out amongst thin high clouds, and Davos could see familiar stars. There was the Galley, sailing west; there the Crone's Lantern, four bright stars that enclosed a golden haze. The clouds hid most of the Ice Dragon, all but the bright blue eye that marked due north. The sky is full of smugglers' stars. They were old friends, those stars; Davos hoped that meant good luck.
But when he lowered his gaze from the sky to the castle ramparts, he was not so certain. The wings of the stone dragons cast great black shadows in the light from the nightfire. He tried to tell himself that they were no more than carvings, cold and lifeless. This was their place, once. A place of dragons and dragonlords, the seat of House Targaryen. The Targaryens were the blood of old Valyria . . .
The wind sighed through the chamber, and in the hearth the flames gusted and swirled. He listened to the logs crackle and spit. When Davos left the window his shadow went before him, tall and thin, and fell across the Painted Table like a sword. And there he stood for a long time, waiting. He heard their boots on the stone steps as they ascended. The king's voice went before him. ". . . is not three," he was saying."
Chasing the shadows, then his shadow like a sword... talk of the Others and dragons... what does it all mean? ;)
Lucifer means Lightbringer Ice Dragons hiding except the always watching fiery blue star eye???Looks like I'm diving back into the Davos chapters AGAIN thanks for helping plan out my week amigo hahaha. Keep on rockin LML
You know it Brian. Davos is one of the best characters anyway. The Hightower of Oldtown also does the shadow sword thing too, in AFFC, fwiw.
Lucifer means Lightbringer I remember that quote. From the Pate prologue if I recall correctly. Swords and shadows FTW
This flipping of Fire to Ice and Ice to Fire reminds me of how some ASOIAF analyzers tend to say that all POV characters are pretty much always wrong in their internal monologue or in general. This to me leads to a potential rabbit hole of analyzing entire series by checking the POV character thoughts and flipping them to see what will actually happen or what is actually true. Thanks for the amusing content as usual
Yeah I think George does that as much as he can get away with. A lot of foreshadowing happens this way, though you have to be careful or else it's obvious of course. But the ice and fire / yin and yang thing is way deep and we only just barely touched on it.
Sun and moon makes a better ice and fire duo, don't they?
Worked my way through the last two years of content, caught my first live stream this week and now im going back to your original playlists. I thoroughly enjoy your ideas abd appreciate the evidence for your theories.
WOW 2024 ? I surely hope.
Take care!! And praise Garth !
So wait... it’s “Wingged” Shadow and not “WINGED”?
I had to point this out, because it makes me cringe. 😂
I’m enjoying this already, I’m glad this confirmed I wasn’t crazy and I was seeing the connections of ice and fire and the dual moons. However; George himself said “It’s fantasy, man”: which he said, in reply to the people, emailing him about scientific explanations for the odd climate of his world. So any scientific theory is automatically wrong, according to Martin himself. 😬
Still fun to throw logic in and make theories though and you are by far the leader of the scientific fantasy theories. Much appreciated, as I enjoy writing my stories with scientific fantasy elements.
You're as cold as ice (like the Others)
You're willing to sacrifice our love (to the Others)
You never take advice
Someday you'll pay the price, I know…
The dichotomy of ice and fire you show raises a question: why are the forces of Ice so much more overtly hostile to humans than those of Fire? I'm not saying Melisandre is a good person or anything, but she's not exactly leading an army of Shadow babies to burn the realms of mortal man. Why would this be?
Melissandre is gonna be all over poor Jon's dead trying to resurrect Azor Ahai puajjj
Why does melisandre never carry a torch? Its a portable fire! She'd love that shit!
Thanks for the videos! I'm rereading the books and your videos add to the experience very well.
I don't agree with Sansa being a fire moon just because she's a redhead but ok. I suppose is to make the Stark sister balance each other out.
"The cold was inside her" ew! Awesome video as always. About the icy sexy times, what if it was with a dead human who has been brought back to life. You know someone who's already had the cold/death inside of them.
I'm curious if there is a way to resurrect someone that would leave them able to make either babies or shadowbabies... but I doubt it, because Mel draws from Stannis's life fires to make the shadows... no life fires, no fuel for shadows. But who knows... we'll have to see what happens with Jon when he comes back in TWOW.
Interesting tidbit: In Traditional Chinese medicine, simply put, men are discouraged from masturbating because it depletes their life force. Sperm is life force and draining that force, they believe, drains you of vitality. I don't think mel uses her own life fires for his shadowbabbies as we dont even know how much "alive" she even is at this point. So we know that fire/life/light magic resurrects people back to life and ice/death/darkness magic resurrects people to death. mel draws from life fires to create shadows that leaves stan drained of life sooo would the opposite be drawing from death to get darkness to create life?
I'm too stoned for this ROFL
Estelle Freitas haha sounds like my internal monologue on some nights. :) I don't know if it's that clear cut, because of Coldhands, who seems more like Beric than anyone else, yet is running on cold power. It's hard to say how far the ice / fire, black / white symmetry goes sometimes. What exactly is the blue energy that animates the Others? Where does it come from? That's kind of one of the big questions. They have life fires too, they're just cold.
Great episode LML. Looking forward to the rest of this series. Also I much prefer the new format. Its much easier to digest the information in these shorter podcasts.
Yeah this new series was just seeming too jumbled and confusing writing the big long ones like I usually do. I figeted around with it a bunch and finally realized I needed to just cut thing apart more, seems to be working. I will have a couple more ideas in Part 2 than this first one, so we will see how it goes.
This channel deserves more subscribers. Some really interesting rabbit-hole stuff. I think it makes a lot more sense though for there to be one moon that has both fire and ice qualities, a dark side and a bright side if you will. That combined with the meteor would better explain why there seems to be two kinds of meteors.
Thanks for the amazing content! I have really enjoyed listening!
it's going to be a fun series :)
After watching this again, I'm more convinced than ever that Mel will indeed become an ice priestess whether or not she becomes Jon's Night's Queen depends on what happens to between Jon and Val and later Daenerys.
Great content! Just a thought regarding the NK and his queen making the first, original Others. If the NK is the 13th LC at the wall, then the wall was already established to protect man from the Others, so they can't have created the first ones.
Thanks to grayarea for helping me find your amazing videos. I’m re reading the books during the long *** night before the final season of the show. Your content and your fellow you tubers like grayarea and talkingthrones is helping me thru this and adding a ton of meaning and fresh ideas to the books so many thanks!!
I'm addicted to ur videos! U the boi ✊
Ooh you found the deep lore
Are you a pink floyd fan by any chance? Love the content.
Yep, that was an intentional PF reference, for sure. They are... quite influential to me. I play bass but David Gilmour is one of my biggest inspirations. I'm way into effects and psychedelia so... yeah.
I noticed the PF reference right away too. PF and ASOIAF are 2 of my favorite things in this world as well. Did you get to see Roger Waters this time around? In my opinion it wasn't as good as his previous tours but still a decent show.
I did not. I did however see David Gilmour on his On an Island tour, where he had all the original members save for Roger. That was right before Richard Wright passed... what a show. Saw them in Oakland at the Paramount Theater, a fantastic venue.
I love these early podcasts.😊
It'd be interesting if Melissandre is on her way to becoming/ascending into some kind of God herself, she just hasn't fully realized the source of her power? Her power seems very rooted in the strength of her personal belief. She might become a mythological character similar to how Dany will be remembered by history.
So Jon Snow is a brother from another Other?
you forgot to mention its pretty easy to name her a moon woman since its right there in her description but she is not a fiery moon maiden....
Any ideas on any historical/mythological goddesses Melissandre might be associated with? Might give some clues to her fate.
Pardon my skepticism but, your theory of the Night's King creating the original others with his corpse queen, falls apart at the beginning. the timeline is all wrong. The only thing we are really told about the NK was that he was the 13th lord commander which would have to be many years after the original Long Night. Why would GRRM give us that as incorrect info? Certainly he would have given us a slew of additional info if that 1 piece of info was incorrect, but it simply makes no sense that the only info he gives us is a lie. Now it could be that his mating with his corpse bride was the repopulation of the others many years after their near extinction during the battle for the dawn. However I preclude that the origin of the others including the corpse queen was that they were 1st men transformed by the radiation/ energy of the heart of winter aka a giant chunk of the black planet/ moon.
Moreover, why build the Wall before the creation of the Others? What was it supposed to guard mankind from?
When else would the Nights Watch be around if not during the long NIGHT? It’s pretty obvious that the Nights Watch was formed during the Long Night and it’s pretty obvious that the Long Night lasted for several years. And the Nightfort, which is were he ruled from, was clearly built before the Wall... It’s pretty obvious the timeline George has created is flawed. That’s George’s whole thing! History being wrong and information being inconsistent as times goes by.
th-cam.com/video/QQ9QFgPaQts/w-d-xo.html
💓💙💓
I've actually considered the Others coming from the moon. GRRM describes them as having a totally different biology from humans, so possibly instead of a carbon based life they are a silicon based life.
A silicon type biology would make a lot of sense in regards to the Others. Since silicon has a lot of similarities to carbon, scientists have hypothesized of life based on that chemistry. I would imagine that kind of life looking very similar to the Others.
Edit* i should probably finish the videos before i comment lol
Is there anything suggesting the corpse Queen was an icy other who just hadn't finished the transformation through ice magic yet? And by extension, the others are ice sorcerers who have practiced for so long that they have completely transformed into their current icy state?
2:03
“Cracked off” from a “moon” ? 🤣
Sorry, couldn’t resist ! 😁😁
“Excuse me, I’d like to ASS you a few questions” lol
A snow tipped mountain might also be interpreted as a moon. :-)
Love the reference to Pink Floyd in the title. :D
I doubt the Night King created the first others, because, why would they have a Night's Watch without others to guard the realm from?
I just think that story is a bit mixed up
@@DavidLightbringer True, besides, it's hard to know the accuracy of the history told in tales within a fictional story.
These are so great to hear again!!👏👏👏
LML brings the light yet again.
On a rewatch binge!
Taking it back to the start 😉
18:02
43:00
27:40
21:56
The wall was built to defend against the others. The nights watch was formed to defend against the others. So how could night's king have made the first others if he was the 13th lord commander of a force formed to fight the others, on a wall of ice that was made to stop the others?
Maybe he wasn’t the 13th commander. The story of the Last Hero has him being the Leader of a band of 12 warriors making him the 13th one of the group. Besides it makes sense that the Nights Watch was formed DURING the Long Night, the Nightfort is the oldest building at the Wall yet it’s not attached to the Wall like the other forts/towers. All the clues suggest that the history we are presented with isn’t correct.
Sam!!! Sam is an icee Moon maiden and the Night’s Watch parallel the King’s Guard in many many ways. Sam!!! So much symbolism in Sam.
One of Aegon the Conqueror's sister wives, Visenya, used the Night's Watch's vows as a model for the King's Guard.
I dont think the nights king ruled during the long night since the nights watch wasn't even around during the long night.
When else would the Nights Watch be around if not during the long NIGHT? It’s pretty obvious that the Nights Watch was formed during the Long Night and it’s pretty obvious that the Long Night lasted for several years.
It makes sense to me. When else would a man named the Night's King rule if not during the long night?
We have to remember that the historical events as depitcted aren't accurate because they happened so long ago and because of the maester's biases.
The voice acting is just godly :D
Jeez that Tormund impression is good
I really like the idea of there being some kind of trapped goddess the world has forgotten about. The goddess is trapped in the heart of winter and maybe there some kind of fire goddess trapped in the Stigai? There's at least some kind of ancient magic source there.
You couldn't find any images to use? Or a PowerPoint of words? The "video" part is boring.
You should add more visuals in your videos