Small correction on Lillia. She actually had no built-in healing on release, but could kite camps all day while the jungle item healed her to full. She only got the healing on her passive when camps were given a bunch more MS and smaller leash ranges to prevent kiting them as easily.
That's actually wrong too she was given a mini reworked a few months after launch because she was to strong in proplay and to weak in regular league so they gave her healing to sustain in jg better yes but also to be a better skirmisher in fights
??? you okay dude ? he's right@@templarstealth4712 they didn't give her healing to be better at skirmishes it was LITERALLY cause new jungle fucked kyting junglers because of leash range ???? the mini rework was to make her less obnoxious early because too much MS and they made E long CD cause in pro play all lillia did was fish for E ULT engages on cd. in solo Q people can't wait or group or anything so she can't do that
No, she was given healing when Ravenous Hunter was deleted from the game. She was originally intended to have healing on her Q, but it was removed pre-launch because she healed too much when stacked with Ravenous. She had healing well before these jungle changes came out.
8:09 The +87% winrate might be a bit of survivorship bias here, teams that manage to acquire a dragon soul likely already have a lead and would have won the majority of their games regardless of the dragon soul buff. It's still a strong and permanent buff that increases your chances of winning, but I think calling it an instant win button is exaggerated.
I wonder what dragon soul winrate is in games that are close to even in gold. Let’s just look at league of graphs data for plat plus, which is where the numbers in the video came from I think. Kill 2 drakes and having them be of the same type is very high in the winrates for your teams first two drakes, which I interpret as teams getting the 3rd and 4th drake, as the first 2 are always different, have higher chances of winning than teams getting the 1st and 2nd drake. So the first 2 drakes don’t matter as much as the 3rd and 4th, but how many games are you going to have go to soul point after one team already secured 2 drakes and have the game go to the other team. Games also last for 28-25 minutes on average for platinum up to challenger, so if each team gets one drake in theory the average team won’t be able to get soul point before the average game ends unless each drake is taken of spawn but I view that as unlikely in games where each team gets at least one drake. I interpret this that since on average games don’t last long enough for one team to get a drake and the other team to get soul that teams that get soul basically won every single team fight.
yep, people bringing up winrates and dragons souls are so funny. that's like saying "look guys whatever team kills the nexus turrets first has a 95% winrate". yeah maybe the winning team just gets dragons and turrets and not the other way around.
Yeah its a huge snowball of which team’s bot and mid are more on point a lot of the times. If bot is heavily losing or mid is gapped hard, dragons become very difficult to get. This means that the team that is usually ahead is getting the dragons.
i mean, considering that cloud soul and chemtech soul have a whole 5% of difference in winrate when they are all just super buffs, i definately would say they still take a big part on that team winning. Especially considering that baron is a buff specifically design to end the game, and yet the team who gets the first baron has an 80% winrate, considerably lower than even the weakest dragon soul.
Playing jungle is watching your bot lane go 0-2 during your first clear and then hard losing the rest of the laning phase before they type “gg no ganks”
You mean that time when your jungler could be considered away for around 20 minutes until he was stacked fully on the lantern, yeah it was fun only for that jungler and not always
It's pretty fun, but you need a lot of game knowledge, you have to look at a play and decide if it's worth your time or not Can you get a spell or a kill? If not probably not worth it, unless you want to give your laner more control of the lane Once you know the mechanics you have the whole game at your fingertips, you're almost a mastermind that decides where your team goes I'm not nearly at that point mind you, I'm still a silver player, but even at low elo sometimes the right cards (teammates) fall into your hands and it facilitates your job immensely
The more they tried to make the role more appealing to casual players, the more they ended up achieving the opposite because who wants to be burdened with so much responsibility and thus the blame for wether a team loses or not.
Most people INTENTIONALLY play carry champs for this exact purpose. While it can be stressful if you get gapped, it also provides you more ways to learn how to win. It can feel awful and just wonder “what could I even do?” When your jng gets demolished, whereas playing as the jng who gets demolished allows you to see where you can improve macro wise throughout the entire game (I.e. before it is doomed). However, I still think the importance of the role is too high for solo-q
Video series idea: Season X meta overview Basically a overview of each seasons and what characters and items were broken during that time. As a person who started playing the game a year ago, it would be cool to learn more about the different metas from the past.
One thing that heavily contributed to the jungle as a 1v9 role is not the actual game, but people watching the game. Tournaments, streamers, youtubers... Everyone knows the best role to follow in order to watch a match is the jungler. They control the team's strategy and where they go something is going to happen. So Riot focused a lot in making the jungler more entertaining to watch, which lead to it becoming overstuffed with responsibilities and gaining control over the entire game. In addition, making secondary objectives such as dragon and herald more important, to push for early game skirmishes, also emphasizes the jungler role, because it's the jungler's role to call for those objectives and direct the team.
I could rant for hours about how broken jungle is. But since I am lazy, here is in my oppinion the most obvious, yet overlooked advantage junglers have: Eversince the Mythic Changes, there are no more specific jungle items they have to build. This was done so junglers don't have a disadvantage when everyone else can build the new flashy Mythic items. However with the current itteration of jungle pets, Junglers will eventually get primal smite, giving them Either insane movespeed bonus, a shield that also gives tenacity and slow resistence, or bonus %-max health true damage and a slow. So no matter what champ you play, if you build the same Items, the champ will ALWAYS be stronger in the jungle than in any lane. But thats not even everything. Thanks to these jungle items, just existing in the Jungle or River gives incredible mana regeneration. Also, Junglers get additional Mana regeneration when killing camps, so there are basically no situations anymore where a jungler has to think about how much mana he can spend to clear a camp if he wants to gank afterwards, because he is always full mana anyways. But at least he has to kite camps to not take to much damage, right? Wrong! They also get healed from the damage the pets do, which by the way scales with ad, ap, armor, mr and health, and they get a heal after they killed the large monster. So not only are they full mana all the time, but also full hp. But thats not even all. It is also the most protected role in the game by design. Not only can they freely kill minions without getting diminished returns as long as the gold they gained from minions is lower than 40% of the gold they gained from monsters, so they can punish laners by breaking freezes, pushing out lanes, disrupting slow pushes and catching farm under turrets. All while laners can hardly punish junglers. As a toplaner you see the enemy jungler ganking bot while his crugs are up? Do the crugs. Not only will it take you forever because you don't have the little pokemon and you will lose half your HP because you don't get the healing junglers do to sustain all camps doing % damage now, but you will also get less for it than a jungler gets. Because just from having a jungle item, they also get 15 bonus xp for each large monster they kill, and they get 20 bonus gold for each snack they consume, which they get each minute by the way. Ok enough for now. This was more of a rant than I wanted, so please don't get me started on how it feels to try and solo herald as a top laner, just to have Lee dash in last second, smite away the herald and place it on your lane to bail out the enemy toplaner with 3 free platings.
There were actually 3 of the “Spirit” items: Spirit of the Spectral Wraith, Spirit of the Lizard Elder, and Spirit of the Ancient Golem. Ancient Golem used to build from Spirit Stone and Kindlegem, but was later changed to build from Quillcoat and Kindlegem. It was kinda like a Thornmail for junglers back in the day. I cut my teeth jingling with Maokai, running Ancient Golem and Sunfire
I got into League because of the Jungle role being a thing and Master Yi being a good starting Jungle. Glad I finally gave League a shot and I love to play Jungle. This was a very insightful video about it since I only started playing the beginning of this year. Would have thought you’d mention the pets now since they are the new and only way to upgrade Smite
Jungle is by far the only role where I seriously have fun, I can get gold and exp without having to watch my enemies movement and try to avoid their attacks, but it gets frustating if your team loses more than 2 lanes and the enemies start warding every single corner of your jungle and take every single camp, that's like the only point where it's unplayable, but top is really fun too, I just recently started playing cameel and she's fun to play and what I like most about top lane, I barely get ganked, unless I play a champ that I'm not so good with or I'm yone/yasuo
Maybe that's an unpopular opinion and i don't care, but league was much MUCH more fun to play when jungle was "a secondary support" and the early game actually felt like you vs your direct opponent, the fact that i always have to worry more about where the jungler is rather than whatever is happening in front of me bothered me so much when i came back to League. A role that when played good is allowed to impact this much of the map with next to no downsides due to how forgiving the current jungle is, shouldn't be a thing IMO, that's why they kept nerfing mid over and over.
Still convinced that jungle is broken nowadays due to the fact that the guy who writes the patch notes is a jungle gold hard stuck and he convinced that his teammates are holding him back.
You kind of answered the question in the first sentences. It is the most important/impactful role, because it is the most difficult and has the highest skill ceiling. In order to be good you need to: Know your teams and enemies team win cons and make a plan b4 game starts. You need to know ALL lane matchups so you know where you're gonna have prio / kill pressure / have to cover dives etc. Additionally while the game you must micro your clear and use F keys to observe if the original plan is working or you need to adapt your strategy because your autofilled toplaner is losing a usually winnning lane matchup. You also need to know common clear speeds and routes from junglers, and must track enemy jungle and provide vision for your locked camera, full mute, not listening to pings laners. Likely I didnt even mention everything, but as you see, since there is so much skill ceiling it is easier to gap your opponent. I also think that its a bit overused to just say jgl gap gg. What laners dont want to understand, if you die to a gank at 3:30 where all junglers finished their clears and look for ganks and you didnt put a ward and die, its not jgl gap, you are just bad at the game. Oftentimes Laners just give junglers too much stuff to work with by dying and feeding very unnecessary deaths. tl;dr: If you good jgler you deserve win more than other roles. Laners are dumb monkeys that feed and blame jgl.
I am a jungle main and honestly I do think that jungle has to much power, but not in the form of being 1v9, but in there being too little risk, the jungle is simply too safe as of right now, and all the camps give you a lot of gold/xp, jungle should be about ganking and getting your hands dirty, and not power farming. Jungle has control over all 3 lanes at all times it will always be 1v9 it should just be riskier to do so
Making one of the most important roles in the game as easy as it has been took out all the excitement and proper mind games out of the jungle for me. I mained Elise which is an early game champ. It was practically impossible to punish champs in the jungle or to go for gank oriented strategies when there's so much protection and so much comfort and safety. While there's more incentive for a newb to play and more of a champion pool, the scale has tipped towards the power farmers, the tanky, the no risk investment champs almost deleting other types of viable strategies in the game. It was one of the reasons why I left.
Jungle definitely doesn't have too much power, just imagine if your team is too greedy and can't wait for you to get into position and just go in without hesitation feed the enemy and the enemies always come to your jungle or try to pick you, that's unplayable, even having a good cs or being fed doesn't bring you out of that unless you can hyper carry or the enemies are inting, if your team is bad early game, then they'll be worse in late game, I'm gold in soloq and my teammates had a big difference than in flex where I'm currently still bronze, it's just horrible if your team sucks, I carried 2 out of 3 games, but yet it was too close to lose because my team was a bunch of garbage that didn't even understand the game, none of them didn't even look onto the map which already makes you a bad player in my opinion + the enemy team was garbage too, but guess just better than my team, in a game I was able to carry without any towers left, even with no nexus towers and that as an evelynn against a viego and a few other annoying champs that I don't remember, but their viego was seriously so ass, I think they were even premades of 5, they tried to pick me but failed at that and I also got a point where I had a 3 lvl difference on viego
I think you are right. Jungle is always ahead of the curve in terms of gold even if they do not gank a single lane. I think that really does not make sense for a role that is always on the map. It is just a role with so many options and you basically in control of what plays your team can make.
@@AplicFlare Jungle is only far ahead if no single lane is gankable, if a jungler has to gank every single lane and if your whole team are pigs, then it's over for you and your team, because if they can't just sit 2min under tower or atleast not die, you won't be able to clear camps fast enough + the enemy jungle can easily punish you, if you're top and you haven't finished your bottom camps
being a jungler means you do 100 good deeds like ganking or objectives and no one cares, yet you make 1 mistake, suddenly your teammates blame you like their parents just saw their report card
especially if your team has 1 duo, they'll insult you so hard and don't even care if they get reported, they'll literally just start flaming you out of nowhere for the rest of the game, no matter what you do, especially after you make 1 mistake, it's incredible
@@alex2005z if they feed the enemy bot it's your fault, if they have 4 deaths in 5 minutes without the enemy jgl ganking them, then it's also your fault, honestly bot lane might be the most pathetic role with the most pathetic players in lol, top and mid are totally chill, today I had a top shyvana who typed "I love you so much" after I made her lane completely free and broke the enemy's top mental, but we lost because our lvl 59 bronze katarina can't play the game (I hate flex) + she also typed jgl diff when I almost carried the game (had her muted tho since she pinged me in early game for no reason and after the top me and the bot lane called her out, she muted herself)
It became too important to a point that if your team jungler dont do anything for 20 mins, game is over but dear lord if your jungler is active one it is gg There is no betweens
I complained so much about jungle last season. Little did I know I didn't know how good I had it. They are so toxic, too. The power Riot has given them so that queue times aren't too long has really gotten to their heads. Kingmaker role that can also 1v1 my top laner just from the gold from their camps alone, a role where the catchup experience allows for a jungler getting doubled in CS and be the same level? Yeah, okay. Looking forward to next season's jungle buffs and looking at the r/Jungle_Mains subreddit and seeing them complain about buffs that are "actually nerfs" for the 5th season in a row.
@@AplicFlare Junglers aren't toxic, the team is toxic, because we get blamed for every single thing, also if you didn't know, league of legends is a game made by riot, of course it's toxic, what do you expect? If you play a game with a mindset that there wouldn't be anyone that's toxic then you shouldn't play that specific game
@@AplicFlare Also, jungle camps are the same as 3 minion waves, the difference is that you have to walk to each camp and nobody clears all of them immediately, even full clear can be stupid early game, you can't full clear every game and you can't clear camps every time, especially not if camps are ready or if lanes are gankable, I don't really understand your problem with junglers, a jungler is supposed to be important, a jungle would be useless if he could easily get far behind, or even just a bit because a small gold diff in this game can be heavy
i miss when jungle was not the single most important role in the game. i also miss when there was a much small pool of junglers. really jungle is really blooted. bring back season 5 jungle that was the best time to jungle. i loved the buff you got off the different camps it was so fun.
I wish bot lane was the most important role so I could flame all the adc and support mains who typed jgl diff in chat when they were literally the reason why we lost
as a jungle main (bel’veth), it has become way to important to the point that having anyone else in my lane makes me feel i will lose no matter what, and if the enemy jungler gets even one kill they will be a monster to the point that the game may aswell be ff ed at 15
Wriggle's lantern really threw a lot of caster junglers and tanks under the bus and prolly single handedly made every auto attacking champion viable in the jungle
Can we stop the "dragon souls" are instawin buttons bias? If you get dragon soul it means that you have the map control to take 4 drakes so you are winning or at least slightly above(maybe both teams are at soul point with no clear winner) and the buff of dragon soul is the step to go from winning to stomping or from being slightly ahead or even to being thw winning team. I wonder the winrate of dragon souls with comparable team gold+dragons taken i think it os not 90% but in the range of 60.
Dragon soul is indeed a huge buff, but the correlation to win rate isn't completely causation. Due to the power perception, the team that is already ahead is more likely to win the fights for it.
Old Season 3-5 jungle was way healthier overall in my opinion, with the exclusion of some of the broken stuff that popped up here and there like it always does in league. In my opinion jungle shouldn’t even be a role, it’s almost always been the root cause of pro-play being slow and boring 75% of the time. Good players just play safe and only fight when they have the jungler coming to gank and have a massive advantage of 2v1. Since junglers roam around mostly un-checked the only smart way to play is to play as if they are waiting to gank at all times, until you get vision of them. It just makes for slow boring early game play styles. I think jungle should be something that happens after the first 7-10 minutes of the game, and the camps should be hard to clear and require a specific type of champion, kind of like it used to be. Those jungle champs would trade maybe cc or overall power in fights with the ability to increase gold and exp gains for their team. Then you might have strategies that either use or don’t use the jungle, and it wouldn’t be a cookie cutter setup each game.
The fact you forgot about Elder golem despite the fact it was the one most commonly built of the three by the junglers themselves is somewhat amusing. It gave a large block of health and tenacity which would often transition smoothly into typically Iceborn Guantlet. Unfortunately for all of the bruisers that would utilize the build, Ezreal kept getting the lizard and gauntlet nerfed because the first iteration of blue ez was wrecking pro play too damn much.
If you wanna use winrate to prove dragon soul significance, you first need to understand the gamestate required to get soul in the first place. In order to get all drakes, you need consistent bot prio (can get into a whole thing about adc meta here), a jungler who is out-tempoing the enemy, better teamate rotations. All of these are markers of the better team, a team that's more likely to win by all accounts. By the time the better team has soul, then the gamestate has already compounded by many other factors, the soul itself mostly being an indicator of gamelength. So, it's not the soul buff, but rather an indicator of the better team in the first place.
In order to get soul you need a gold lead. Thats it. You need to be winning. Bot prio is optional as by the time you are actually fighting for the final drakes laning phase is over.
Would have been nice if you had mentioned our new jungle pet friendos, but for the most part the conceptual idea was already covered by you in the video anyways. I think it would have also been better if you had gave a little focus from the shift from support or tank junglers to carry junglers instead of just showing us we got to a point where anything could jungle. This could have either been a shift in meta or charcters, or thought process.
I think saying that because a team has soul they win more might be a bit of missing the forest for the trees, as i think it would be a fair assumption to say that the team who either gets soul uncontested or wins the fight for soul is already ahead at that point in the game before entering that deciding point
Remember 54% WR Jungle Graves? They had to buff him in S13 just so he could climb out of 49%... He was never nerfed inbetween those two events - everyone else eclipsed him.
7:07 Not sure what you mean by "presence in every game" when jungle was a permanent role since season 1 in ranked queues. I never encountered games where WW/Fiddle/Shaco/etc were not jungling in season 1.
that's because they got hardcore cc lmao, cc is the key to win, if your team picks 2 game carries you just pick someone who has a lot of cc and in pro play easily every player can carry the game, so yeah cc is definitely one of the most important things in pro play, I don't think in low elo it matters that much because everyone is a pig
@motafu1 not just cc, but engage. Cc that you can use to start a fight. Very important, otherwise a decent player will never get caught out. I mean who would get caught out if the enemies engage is braum q?
I do think it’s impacts is great for pro play, but becomes toxic for solo-que. Especially once you consider how impossible it is to have the losing jng
very cool to see all the stonewall008 gameplay, watching his videos on youtube is how i learned to jungle and got into the role in the first place. really missing the spirit stone items, tank item gave %hp, and you could get %hp runes with the old rune pages too, i'd build full health on old voli and never died
I remember Ekko was first intended a mid laner and not a jungler, the shield is just a concidence. And then Riot start to shift him toward the jungle tho.
As a Jungler, and watching your video, I think over the course of the game's lifespan they wanted to equalize Junglers and Laners not necessarily make the Jungler a "1v9 Role" in design. It seems the game was meant to be played in lane, and there was no champion meant to be balanced specifically for jungle in its early time. Hence as the video showed, the Jungler was always "behind" as they had to accommodate getting exp and gold in a different way than the laners who had the safety of minions. So time, resources, gold was wasted on items just to survive the jungle, you start sort of one step behind. So items were made to compensate a Champion in the jungle. Even in other game modes, even in recent times, like Ultimate Spellbook, the Jungler was forced to lose a summoner spell as every Laner could choose to have Summ + Ultimate spell, but the Jungler was forced to have Smite + Ultimate spell and therefore you lose out on precious flash while every other Laner didn't lose out as much. But now that the Jungle is more or less compensate like a Laner (an arguable point depending on balance and meta) the prevalence of this "1v9 role" or "most Important Role ever" comes from the innate freedom of the Jungler as opposed to Laners. The Jungler doesn't have minions contested from him in a traditional sense, has resources and sustain in the jungle, and can go anywhere they chose to make some sort of outcome for their team while a traditional Laner has to go to their Lane. This is both a boon and a curse, a double edged sword perhaps. A Laner has guaranteed resources, but if they fail they can't go back to their lane. If a Jungler fails somewhere, they can opt to simply go elsewhere on the map, but also they don't have guaranteed resources. If you lose ground on your jungle the resourceful go with it. So on, and so forth. Really good players, smurfs, etc, know how to use this freedom to take over the map, and it looks like then its the most important role, but its difficult in its decision making. Its kind of like...Laners have a salary, but Junglers have a commission. I do not envy Riot trying to balance Jungle and Laners, but also I wish they'd figure out something and stick with it. Every season I have to relearn everything, from pathing, farming, objectives, champion strength with new starting items, etc.
Season 6 had a keystone mastery called Strength of Ages that was almost must take on junglers. It gave 20 perm max health on siege minion kill and 10 on large monster kill up to 300 max. When at max stacks and you kill a large monster, you restore 6% of max health.
To perfectly describe my response to my friends wonder of why I jungle. It's the weight of responsibilities that piqued my interest, back in season2 all I wanted to do was farm and gank. Get dragons, be a team player. Nowadays, it's absolutely mental and similar to laners, I've gotten hard jungle diffed on both opposing sides because now there are so many factors to keep track of. It's actually mental to keep going.
one part of Jungle history that I feel like needs to be pointed out - there was a time fairly early on where Riot seemed very willing to try to discourage jungling as a primary role, before eventually coming to embrace the concept as pro play started to grow and evolve.
I'm 6 minutes in, and can't help but notice there was no talk of the one and only wriggles lantern? Bis item back in the day? Surprised it wasn't brought up
A note on the "wight" camp (now Gromp camp): It's true that this camp didn't always exist. Crazy, right? Have you ever noticed that every single other camp in the game has a little "nook" built into the physical walls of the map, except Gromp? That's because he was added after the map had been finalized. The main reason he was added is that the blue side was of the jungle was just massively worse. Think about it: without Gromp, the blue side would only have a single camp plus the buff. At best it was 3 camps to 2, but more realistically since buffs have a longer respawn timer than minor camps, it was more like 2 camps to 1. It was **literally** not worth your time to walk over and kill just wolves, leading to an awkward proto-form of vertical jungling where you just ignore your blue side entirely unless the buff is up. This also lead to unhealthy jungle pathing and spam ganking the same lanes. *minor camps also respawned much faster in those days, so it was more economical to ignore one camp. The others would come up soon enough... first, it's time for your fifth mid gank.
Jungle and ADC are the most terrifying roles for me. Adc because what sane person logs onto league and thinks I'd like to be vulnerable and rely on my league team mates to help me come online. But jg because it's the reverse...not only do I need to be the guy that saves the day but I'm STILL relying on my team mates to set something up. As an OG top main I know the difference it can make to get even 1 gank, especially vs a squishy or immobile enemy. And yet I can ping omw, actually type out 30s, just literally sit in a bush. Somehow any interaction from me tells them to push wave as hard as possible and then let the enemy freeze under tower.... I try to go bot and they just back. Mid laners you are my only friends thank you for seeing pings and responding.
As someone who played since the beginning and loved experimenting with potential jungle champs as the game progressed, it's very frustrating now to feel railroaded into "if you're not playing this list of definitive jungle champs you're throwing" because it's almost impossible to account for the absurdly superior clear speeds. It used to be possible to play a champ in the more "supportive" style of gank jungling and build enough of a lead to carry that way without necessarily having to clear every camp on every rotation, and powerfarming the jungle with minor counter jungling *could* work a decent part of the time, but there was a pretty good chance you were generally a weaker champion than someone that had been successfully ganking lanes consistently. This made powerfarming much more risk-reward. This in combination with the fact that this was back when the average game length was much, much longer-- having a powerfarming jungler would come out of the jungle with almost no ganks for the first time to destroy everyone happened more around 35-40 minutes, not as early as 20.
As a JG main, I was immediately excited to see this vid pop on my feed. Also IIRC didn't tyler1 had the most difficulty with top and jg? With Mid and Support being the easiest.
Mid and Support are the most irrelevant roles in league and it's 100% correct, tell me a game where the support was any important in late game, enchanters maybe, but everyone else is just useless, the only thing supports are good for is warding but that's almost everything in late game, a champ like taric is totally different tho, or a 1mil points yuumi who actually plays like she has 1mil points on yuumi
@@motafu1 Supports gank mid so often and roam, look at champs that have hooks, or something like Bard. They're like a 2nd Jgl for mid. Not to mention how many fights are decided by a hook and taking 1 enemy out of the fight for free, or a Rakan knockup engage. Also agree on the objectives since their job is to ward drake, river, sometimes buff etc to actually help at drake or with invading junglers
if JG was the most important role Faker will be a jungler. In solo Q it's always the JG fault because when each of the 4 laners share their POV it is a 4vs1 thus it seems jungler s the most important role ("my jg didnt gank my lane" or" the jg is not talking dragon", etc) but if you think of pro play most known gamers usually play the mid or adc role and junglers are a 2nd support. I ll love if you could include some numbers/stats to proof your point. thanks for the video
Gonna be honest, jungle specific items felt so much better as a non-jungler who got off-roled. That feels like it really has a bit more to do with the mythic system and how annoying mythics are, but when I was first learning the game and having fun with AP junglers, having the mini-Luden’s felt like an amazing item completion. Plus, the items looked cool in a plastic weapon kind of way.
since season 3 ive been playing jungle since my playmates dont want me a noob to ruin their game i only change role in season 11 (no kidding) since they stop playing so no one can shout into my headphones now i've change role and the first thing i notice is that laners have it easier since they have a tower to relay and they have 2 summoners spell that can change the flow of fights
I liked more of the two spirit JG item. I felt them so good. They did gave good power and a overall good item, that I actuelly would buy even in non-junglers. (At least it's my opinion). But probably the best maybe what we have to day. Now days problem is more of the Smite damage difrence. It better, then whene it was connected by the LV of the champion, but it still can happan, that one of the jungler has lower smite DMG. And I don't know if it posibble some how. But I would like the spirit JG items back, in a adjusted form. Or maybe just some kind of reminder of the old camps in items or something. I know it just skin/look in practice, but I like the lizard and the wraith camp.
You're mistaken. AS jungle item was counterpart of Rageblade. It was giving the same effect when fully stacked on monsters. There was even an AFK farming YI meta at some point. Warrior items wasn't Ghostblade counterpart. It didn't have flat armor pen and movement.
I really like this video, but I think I was expecting a bit more of the thing that had made the jungle as unbalanced as it is. You cover a lot about how the jungle systems have been adjusted to allow the role to exist and slowly being impactful, however I think you could have gone more in depth with how these changes morphed the meta around them. Also I was expecting to hear about how a lot of junglers have been chain buffed for the last 3 seasons, and some champions have randomly become junglers because riot one day decided to buff their dmg to monsters. I understand covering any of these would have made the video longer, I guess I was expecting more for the tittle of the thumbnail.
As a jungle main, we get flamed too much considering how much we have to do. Everyone expects you to constantly gank their lane and they dknt understand the need for opportunity and that their wave management is important for ganks and the rotations for clear might not always let you gank a lane.
This happens because when you cant do shit bc bad wave position is bad, or you decided to make a fullcklear , the enemy jungler makes random lvl 2 play on the other side of the map, and cant get seriosly punished, because due to jungle pet snack passive he will not lose that much of income , and successful gank will compensate losses even if he gets only assists, and even if its become bad for ganking jungler , a falling down on lane in 2-3 wasted waves is so miserable in lane, and almost guaranteed you that lane will won, so now you need to deal with strong opponent, while enemy jungler, being gapped for 3-4 lvls will farm safely with bonus exp bc WHY NOT? After rewatching my master games i fucking realize , that there is 3 scenarios of 2 jaja interacting with map 1 they split the map and completely ruin life of weakside laner 2 they will go to same side and force random-ass coinflip scuttle fuckyourwavepositionifyouwonthelpmeiwillruinwholegame 3 strong erly game jungler will invade karthus-shivana-lilia-ect creature in their jungler that will again affect all laners to move to this action again The fact that makes jungle broken is exp from behind, treasures from item, and almost full freedom to do what you want first 15 mins Jungle and support is the only people in the game that not got stuck to their lanes because of resources maintaining , and can violently affect the map, the moment is - support is falling in terms of gold, junglers get +- same amount of gold and exp as laners , while while desiding fate of the lanes (if there is no skill issue or "intellect champions") Most jungers get fullclear (so lvl 4 as well) before sololaners get lvl4 , so they just stronger in terms of stats, the pets make jungle clear a easy trip , so they are full hp, and junglers designed in a form to have hard cc or slow or ect , its not much you can do , you have to shut the fuck up and respect the jungle powerspike , and if your jungler at that time does nothing, while you died or forced to stay under turret to lose a full lvl of exp , that leads to later lvl6 , thats leads to more loses or even towerdive (and if you get doved erlygame and has no tp, your lane is over) , you really will want to help your jungler go 0/1 (in game) Like adc has scaling but has to rely on others in erly, supports has impact erly , but later they just supports to the protagonists , midlaners has impact over map , but can be violated from others, toplane is just a lastpick balls torture simulator that can become even worse if someone interrupt and ruin life of one of them, that will create or the less impactfull player of the game, or the hardest 1/9 machine And jungle ..... Well, it has a huge affection to the erlygame, it is insanely important to take objectives in midgame , and they have resourses and scalings aswell , so with riot love and updates , exp from behind and treasures , so you wont get violated so hard 😊😊😊😊😊😊😊 AND IT LOOKS LIKE NOONE CARES ABOT TOPLANER THAT GET DOVED AT LVL 3 BY RENECTON+REKSAI, TP/D BACK JUST TO GET FUCKED WITH RENECTON+REKSAI+RELL LOST 3 WAVES WORTH OF MINIONS AND 2 LVLS BEHIND, WENT BACK TO LANE JUST TO NOTISED THAT YOUR LANE IS FROZED AND A FUCKING REKSAI SITTING IN THE BUSH, THAN RENECTON GETS LVL 6 AND YOU GET FUCKING DOVED ONCE AGAIN AND AFTER THIS YOUR ONLY OPTION TO SAVE SOMETHING THAT LEFT OF YOUR MENTAL HEALTH IS JUST LEAVE THE GAME AND FORGOT ABOUT THIS GAME😂😂😂 NOT TO MENTION THAT YOUR JUNGLER THAT SUCCESSFULY GANKED BOT AND GET TO YOUR TEAM 2 FLASHES AND A KILL WILL RANDOMLY DECIDE TO GO FIGHT REKSAI , BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING COULD GO WRONG RIGHT? THE FED LVL 6 RENECTON DEFINITELY WILL NOT MURDER EVERYONE RIGHT?
13:18 that is just a total lie. The fastest role t1 reached challenger on was support. Some part of that are being the last role he needed to get challenger on, thus having ample experience. Also, t1 spent 1800+ games trying to reach challenger in jungle, so the amount of time spent is not equivalent to the amount of effort needed, it’s the number of games he played that really matter. He spent more games trying to reach jungle than any other role, but honestly that does not mean anything. It’s like a master swordsman learning how to use a katana in 5 months, then proceeding to learn how to use a halberd in 3 months. This doesn’t mean anything as there are a lot of transferable skills between the two, so that does not automatically make the halberd an easier weapon to use over a katana. T1 spending 1000+ games to reach challenger in one role, and proceeding to reach challenger in less time in another role does not mean that one role was more difficult than the other. The only thing that can be gathered from that is that t1 just became better at the game. Honestly this remark you made about t1 was pretty stupid and irrelevant.
I would argue that Support is equally - if not more - impactful over the course of multiple games. Support, like jungle, is all about being in the "right place at the right time". However, support is much harder to track (because you aren't tied to jungle clear), and the champions within the role have incredible innate value: even if you hard int 0/10 on support, you can still change the outcome of a teamfight because of the raw utility within your kit, which no other role can consistently do. Because your impact is tied to your ability to snowball your TEAMMATES and your performance within teamfights, you will always have agency over the game if at least 1 of your teammates is doing well. I often hear the counterargument that supports can't 1v9 like junglers can, but I argue that they don't need to: if all 4 of your teammates are so awful that a skilled support can't create a gold lead + carry teamfights, the game was doomed no matter what you played. Also, the macro on support is a lot simpler than other roles for the first 20m, so you have a lot of mental real estate to digest the game state & guide your teammates to the correct play. This is exacerbated if you stay away from more mechanically challenging supports like Bard, Pyke, or Thresh, though you can definitely still shotcall on those champions too.
Stop coping, even riot's balancing team says junglers have the highest agency in soloQ and they're still looking to nerf their early power (riot phreak and riot phroxon recent interviews/videos).
@@k9tirion927 I'm a Master support main, from my perspective Support is the role that is most consistently able to impact + carry games. Jungle is much higher-risk and some games you will have no impact because of circumstances out of your control
support falls off in late game unless you're a champ like taric, I never had a game where the support was carrying the game, it was either me, my top or mid lane, bot lane is just different, a good draven can easily carry tho or a good vayne, everything else garbage tho, maybe samira too, but I think samira players have too much of a main character mindset who think they should get all the kills and always want to get a pentakill, but that's just my opinion
@@motafu1 you are mistaken about support falling off, most supports scale very well, and also have much greater game agency before 20m than adcs. Maybe supports don't carry in gold-plat, but it's very easy to carry on support in higher elo. It could also be that you aren't good at spotting supports who are carrying: supports aren't getting flashy pentakills to carry games, but they still are carrying.
I think the emergence of the jungle role really kicked off the pro scene as now each player could have a position, like other sports. It wasn't just 5 random people thrown onto a game map, it was 5 positions head to head on the field. While increasing the complexity kept the game from getting too stale from match to match (like adding the different dragon types), I think it did hurt the sports-like nature Riot had developed up until about that point.
Is it weird that my favourite and least favourite jungle change are the same? Because back in season 11, I thought the idea of not having to upgrade the jungle item to be brilliant. I still do, to this day, as it gives players freedom of choice. However, its implementation was awful. Just about every early game jungler enjoyed having their first buy at 2250 gold (full jungle item was 2600, but you always start machete, so that's -350). When mythics were implemented, all of a sudden that powerspike got delayed by at least 3 kills. Sure, they spiked harder, but when it came down to early game junglers, spiking faster is more important than spiking harder. In addition: because you can no longer buy the smite upgrades, you almost always get it significantly later than you used to before Season 11, where you could consistently get by your first recall. And that's not even all: the smite quest only stacked when using smite. Kills and assists wouldn't give you stacks. So by ganking you delay your won smite upgrade. What could have been the best change in the jungle's history ended up as one of the worse. The infinite sustain, meanwhile, made it really hard for early game junglers to punish power farmers by invading and hunting them down directly because everyone took so much longer to die. What I hate the most about the modern jungle is how you're practically forced to power farm. Back in the day full clearing was considered greedy, something only the Yis or other champions with protagonist syndrom did. Nowadays it is the norm. Even the likes of Lee Sin and Elise full clear half of the time.
This was the change that made me leave after so many others. I see you might be a Shaco fan, and I was an Elise/Evelynn main. It's not so much important for Evelynn, but it somewhat made some difference even for her. As for Elise, it fucked up my game plans so much that there wasn't an incentive to play my main champion anymore, especially if I was climbing the lower elos as they don't fucking know what to do with early game advantages. I honestly don't even know the state of the jungle as I avoid league content, but I'd bet that solo que might be a power farming fest and pro play might have gone to the tanky junglers that can farm as fast as possible. Sad days for me, and probably for you, because the early game strategies, ganking focused champs and mind games might not be as viable as they once were.
@@hikariluanGC the last jungler with great ganks Riot released was Rek'sai. That was in 2014. (Or Nunu, if you want to count reworks, but even that was still in 2018). Elise is actually first choice should Shaco be unavailable. I'm not keeping up with the meta either, in part because I lost some interest but mostly because real life got busier. Seasons 10 to 12 were power farming nightmares, but from what I've heard, season 13 is actually not too bad.
I don't love the point about soul winrate making it an "instant win button." That winrate is almost certainly a way larger reflection of the culture we have around dragons--that each one starting with the second, third, or fourth (depending on game) is an event that most players should be coming to. This means that the team that wins the dragon is often also often winning a teamfight, creating gold and pressure leads. More to the point, the team that was already ahead is a lot more likely to win these fights or otherwise be able to secure the dragon. It's entirely possible, if not likely, that it is often optimal to play strategies emphasizing heralds and towers over dragon (especially if the enemy is rotating too many players to them), but this simply isn't how we play, and trying to play this way will get you flamed. Soul doesn't matter if you're down 3 inhibitors or a nexus for it. Otherwise, great video! I learned a lot of history as a Jungle main who only started playing in season 12.
wasn't jungle the second hardest role to hit chall for T1? If i remeber correctly he had to play offstream and spammed Ivern to achieve this. I think support was the easiest and he called it a baby role
@@alex2005z jungle gets severely out-resourced by almost every lane, except botlane, you're almost 2 levels behind if you only take your own camps, off cooldown, and you're a good chunk of gold behind as well, so I don't know if I believe jungle to be the strongest role, it used to be because you got so many resources so quickly, but you don't anymore
@@alex2005z depends on the ELO, feeding other lanes is good when people aren't absolutely incompetent, but if they are, like in low elo, then feeding your botlane doesn't matter if they're gonna go 7/190/0
i really want to see a jungle item rework. Give us the "knives" that used to be in early league, maybe make them scale like support items??? Make a jungle item that can give vision, I WANT TO BE A JUNGLER THAT CAN PLACE LOTS OF WARDS MAN PLEASE
I don't play anymore, but there used to be an item that allowed us to place 2 wards and it reset every time we came back to base. It was one of the upgrades of the "knives" back in the day. It was so much fun because it allowed me to control the whole map, especially in lower elos, with ease. They dumped the item on the excuse that there was too much vision for the pro players and it made the fun and surprising stuff disappear which led it to be quite stale for pro games viewers. It was one of the reasons why I left.
Just use the normal wards and just buy control wards, as a kayn and eve main I only get red ward as kayn and as eve I want to stay invisible as much is possible, if the enemies know where I am, then I can't pick anyone and after I learned that I shouldn't but sweepers on her, I found out that I can get more kills if the enemies don't see me (which is obvious as evelynn)
I think that, in the begining, the dificulty was inside the jungle. In season 3 to 5 was dificult to just stay alive and healty to gank after clearing camps. Now, there is no dificulty inside the jungle anymore. And because of that, you have this window wide open to think the best ways to impact the game over the map. But this shows the real gap between someone who is just playing to kill something or farm to someone who is thinking the best and fastest way to win the game. The jungle role became the team's brain, he chooses when and where the team will put pressure, and this constant decision usually change the game drastically, for better or worse. And this is why, "jungle gap" is pretty common.
I started playing in april of this year and holy shit does that early gameplay look like a completely different game. I really thought I missed the bandwagon on league, but it looks waaaayyy more smooth today. Edit: Ive played exclusively jungle and can confirm every single loss I take is my fault entirely.
Vars if you see this you should dig into Dota 2 and compare the uses/impacts of the jungle. It would make for a fascinating comparison with League. Having played both I can personally attest to how different they feel despite being the same concept.
I've been playing jungle for 10 years now. I can tell you it's a very paradoxical role. You are simultaneously the most useful and useless nothing at the same time. It depends too much on the team as a whole at emerald+ ranks.
Ever since 12.10 aka the durability patch the most powerful role has been ADC by a significant margin. Maybe that'll change now that Riot seems to be trying to bring assassins back up to snuff but we'll have to see. I'd rank the roles like this right now: ADC >> jungle = support > mid >>>> top.
Jungle, by its nature, is supposed to be the x factor role. This is why the role is so powerful. It is not that the role scales better or has better objective taking power, because if you have a losing bot lane kiss the first two dragons good bye, and if your mid lane never has priority you cannot contest the objectives. NO, the reason for the power of the jungler is because they can go to a lane and mess up the balance of that lane by providing a quick numbers advantage. During the laning phase, and the laning phase only is the time of the junglers power. I have played countless games where I have crushed laning as a jungler, but because my mid was trash and lost first tower, you can no longer get any of your resources because the enemy team takes it from you. The problem with jungle is not that it is an unbalanced position, it is that the position is a very knowledge check position. If you do not know how to deal with a jungler than you will lose, but if you know how jungle works you can force them out of a game.
I hate some mid lane assassin were pushed into jungle and also viego. Jungle used to be control and support your lane to win now it's just jungle diff + champion diff
I wish every jungler wouldn't be able to counter another jungler this much, if you play against a counter and they know how to play then it's literally over, I had one game where I was kayn against a kindred and this kindred was perma invading and abusing early game, I couldn't do anything and her auto attacks slowed me too, it was impossible to reach her because she has billions of dashes, I ban kindred every game now, but sometimes I face khazix and everytime the khazix player is the biggiest 🐱 in the world, everytime they are low hp they literally just ult and use ghostblade + they use their jump, impossible to follow that even as kayn
Yes and the biggest counter to jg is your own team. Literally here we have a role that basically calls the plays. That only works if your team actually listens to your plays. I’ve lost so many drakes because bit lane refuses to help despite having lane priority and/mid not rotating but the enemy team just comes and my team stays in their lane and then flames for me losing drake. Everyone loves to blame jg but more than 90% of the time, it’s the lanes who lose the game for the jg making it hard to come back. Plus when you have the enemy team taking your farm, you are forced to sit in base while Your team gets the minions to try and make a come back. I started just perms ganking even if it’s not good to force a spell to make it earlier for the laner because my lord these Lakers suck. I basically have to int in order for my team to follow up by force instead of them ignoring all the calls. We also need the ward smite back bro. These owners have 0 vision control. And and least with that item everyone is ok even playing field to use it while getting vision control on your own without your team.
You didn’t mention the removal of tettering camps. Where ranged champs could deagro and reagro camps to avoid taking damage but increasing clear speed before they removed it for agro system they have now
Here is my idea how to fix jungle's solocarry potential. First: nerf smite damage against epic mosters and give it a debuff that reduces armor and magic ressist so that it still is a huge help at taking down epic monsters but is more effective with other players being around. Second: Rework Epic Jungle Monsters: Epic Jungle Monsters can not longer be stolen if a team dealt at least 75% of the monster's maximum life. This way Junglers can no longer drive by steal epic monsters made by laners and laners get the chance to idenpendantly of the junglers do opjectives.
jg is without a doubt in solo ranked pvp the most impactfull role, it meaks or breaks most games, and it is usually the most deciding factor early game without a doubt. It has the ability to influnce the game the most . I do not think there is any doubt for that. Anyone that played solo q knows that having a good jg means win, almost all the time because it gets lanes feed.
11:00, is that nunu scripting.... ? Also, Rengar didnt have healing on his W, it used to only give extra resistances and some movespeed. When he was reworked they gave the heal
Gotta point out what I believe to have been one of the most influential periods in the power of junglers. Feral Flare meta. Where the idea of carry junglers really came to life. Slow, methodical tanky junglers were completely pushed out of the role in favor of Attack Speed based carries like Xin Zhao, Udyr, and Master Yi. They would vanish into the jungle for 20 minutes and the game would be a 4v4...until whichever jungler emerged first with a stacked feral flare would be granted with a free win, as the other jungler could no longer stack for their flare because they lost every counter jungle fight. Laners could never leave tower because the jungler could now rush you down and click on you to death. Oh it was terrible, but at least it happened back when Riot had some balance standards and it was promptly nerfed. If Feral Flare happened today they'd give it "time for players to adjust" then fix it by nerfing ADC's and adding a new Bruiser item
Small correction on Lillia. She actually had no built-in healing on release, but could kite camps all day while the jungle item healed her to full. She only got the healing on her passive when camps were given a bunch more MS and smaller leash ranges to prevent kiting them as easily.
That's actually wrong too she was given a mini reworked a few months after launch because she was to strong in proplay and to weak in regular league so they gave her healing to sustain in jg better yes but also to be a better skirmisher in fights
And pre release she could solo baron at level 1
??? you okay dude ? he's right@@templarstealth4712 they didn't give her healing to be better at skirmishes it was LITERALLY cause new jungle fucked kyting junglers because of leash range ???? the mini rework was to make her less obnoxious early because too much MS and they made E long CD cause in pro play all lillia did was fish for E ULT engages on cd. in solo Q people can't wait or group or anything so she can't do that
No, she was given healing when Ravenous Hunter was deleted from the game. She was originally intended to have healing on her Q, but it was removed pre-launch because she healed too much when stacked with Ravenous. She had healing well before these jungle changes came out.
8:09 The +87% winrate might be a bit of survivorship bias here, teams that manage to acquire a dragon soul likely already have a lead and would have won the majority of their games regardless of the dragon soul buff. It's still a strong and permanent buff that increases your chances of winning, but I think calling it an instant win button is exaggerated.
I wonder what dragon soul winrate is in games that are close to even in gold.
Let’s just look at league of graphs data for plat plus, which is where the numbers in the video came from I think.
Kill 2 drakes and having them be of the same type is very high in the winrates for your teams first two drakes, which I interpret as teams getting the 3rd and 4th drake, as the first 2 are always different, have higher chances of winning than teams getting the 1st and 2nd drake. So the first 2 drakes don’t matter as much as the 3rd and 4th, but how many games are you going to have go to soul point after one team already secured 2 drakes and have the game go to the other team.
Games also last for 28-25 minutes on average for platinum up to challenger, so if each team gets one drake in theory the average team won’t be able to get soul point before the average game ends unless each drake is taken of spawn but I view that as unlikely in games where each team gets at least one drake. I interpret this that since on average games don’t last long enough for one team to get a drake and the other team to get soul that teams that get soul basically won every single team fight.
yep, people bringing up winrates and dragons souls are so funny. that's like saying "look guys whatever team kills the nexus turrets first has a 95% winrate". yeah maybe the winning team just gets dragons and turrets and not the other way around.
Yeah its a huge snowball of which team’s bot and mid are more on point a lot of the times. If bot is heavily losing or mid is gapped hard, dragons become very difficult to get. This means that the team that is usually ahead is getting the dragons.
i mean, considering that cloud soul and chemtech soul have a whole 5% of difference in winrate when they are all just super buffs, i definately would say they still take a big part on that team winning. Especially considering that baron is a buff specifically design to end the game, and yet the team who gets the first baron has an 80% winrate, considerably lower than even the weakest dragon soul.
Did you know 99.9999 percent of core killers won? Core is op.
Playing jungle is watching your bot lane go 0-2 during your first clear and then hard losing the rest of the laning phase before they type “gg no ganks”
But you could’ve skipped camps to gank bot.
@@firenado1674and losing your topside camps?
@naiku6727enlight us gold jg
@@firenado1674but no gank was setup... enemy bot lane was full hp with sums.
@naiku6727 Fullclear is good when the gank would be unlikely to achieve much anyway. If your botlane solo dies 2v2 then that's on them.
I'm sad to see that wriggle's lantern got no love in this video. I remember stacking it up on yi, noc and shyvanana and just deleting people.
You mean that time when your jungler could be considered away for around 20 minutes until he was stacked fully on the lantern, yeah it was fun only for that jungler and not always
AD bruiser Evelynn.
That item was so busted that I'm surprised he didn't cover it but then again you'd only know the horror if you were there to see it.
Shyvana/Yi/Trundle were so terrifying back then
rip feral flare udyr who would afk for an hour then 1v9+base
As a jungle main, man am I glad I've decided to never come back to the game. Too much responsibility for my shoulders.
/mute all, solves every problem
It's pretty fun, but you need a lot of game knowledge, you have to look at a play and decide if it's worth your time or not
Can you get a spell or a kill? If not probably not worth it, unless you want to give your laner more control of the lane
Once you know the mechanics you have the whole game at your fingertips, you're almost a mastermind that decides where your team goes
I'm not nearly at that point mind you, I'm still a silver player, but even at low elo sometimes the right cards (teammates) fall into your hands and it facilitates your job immensely
Switch roles??
Why not like idk... Play other role?
@@kauanjos3199if you have to change the role to enjoy the game then the game is not enjoyable.
Damn I miss Original Sejuani. Ranged Amumu ult was nuts.
Yeah I miss that aoe w… the flail
played her once after the change and will never pick her again
@@chimneyimp1486yea shes not a bad champ at all, but her old kit was just so much more fun to me, felt the same way about aatrox and maokai rework
4:48 Adobe Premiere Jumpscare
You can tell how important a roll is by how hard you get flammed by the team
when the game is lost the jungler is always the fault if you lose the game when the 0/50 katarina can't one shot one of her counters
The more they tried to make the role more appealing to casual players, the more they ended up achieving the opposite because who wants to be burdened with so much responsibility and thus the blame for wether a team loses or not.
I'm a casual jungle main, so yea I want. It's great having the freedom on the map, I frankly get bored when I play ADC or top lane.
Most people INTENTIONALLY play carry champs for this exact purpose. While it can be stressful if you get gapped, it also provides you more ways to learn how to win.
It can feel awful and just wonder “what could I even do?” When your jng gets demolished, whereas playing as the jng who gets demolished allows you to see where you can improve macro wise throughout the entire game (I.e. before it is doomed). However, I still think the importance of the role is too high for solo-q
Video series idea:
Season X meta overview
Basically a overview of each seasons and what characters and items were broken during that time. As a person who started playing the game a year ago, it would be cool to learn more about the different metas from the past.
One thing that heavily contributed to the jungle as a 1v9 role is not the actual game, but people watching the game. Tournaments, streamers, youtubers... Everyone knows the best role to follow in order to watch a match is the jungler. They control the team's strategy and where they go something is going to happen. So Riot focused a lot in making the jungler more entertaining to watch, which lead to it becoming overstuffed with responsibilities and gaining control over the entire game.
In addition, making secondary objectives such as dragon and herald more important, to push for early game skirmishes, also emphasizes the jungler role, because it's the jungler's role to call for those objectives and direct the team.
4:49 Rip infrastructure. Looks like Premiere Pro lost a track of a file.
I could rant for hours about how broken jungle is. But since I am lazy, here is in my oppinion the most obvious, yet overlooked advantage junglers have: Eversince the Mythic Changes, there are no more specific jungle items they have to build. This was done so junglers don't have a disadvantage when everyone else can build the new flashy Mythic items. However with the current itteration of jungle pets, Junglers will eventually get primal smite, giving them Either insane movespeed bonus, a shield that also gives tenacity and slow resistence, or bonus %-max health true damage and a slow. So no matter what champ you play, if you build the same Items, the champ will ALWAYS be stronger in the jungle than in any lane. But thats not even everything. Thanks to these jungle items, just existing in the Jungle or River gives incredible mana regeneration. Also, Junglers get additional Mana regeneration when killing camps, so there are basically no situations anymore where a jungler has to think about how much mana he can spend to clear a camp if he wants to gank afterwards, because he is always full mana anyways. But at least he has to kite camps to not take to much damage, right? Wrong! They also get healed from the damage the pets do, which by the way scales with ad, ap, armor, mr and health, and they get a heal after they killed the large monster. So not only are they full mana all the time, but also full hp.
But thats not even all. It is also the most protected role in the game by design. Not only can they freely kill minions without getting diminished returns as long as the gold they gained from minions is lower than 40% of the gold they gained from monsters, so they can punish laners by breaking freezes, pushing out lanes, disrupting slow pushes and catching farm under turrets. All while laners can hardly punish junglers. As a toplaner you see the enemy jungler ganking bot while his crugs are up? Do the crugs. Not only will it take you forever because you don't have the little pokemon and you will lose half your HP because you don't get the healing junglers do to sustain all camps doing % damage now, but you will also get less for it than a jungler gets. Because just from having a jungle item, they also get 15 bonus xp for each large monster they kill, and they get 20 bonus gold for each snack they consume, which they get each minute by the way.
Ok enough for now. This was more of a rant than I wanted, so please don't get me started on how it feels to try and solo herald as a top laner, just to have Lee dash in last second, smite away the herald and place it on your lane to bail out the enemy toplaner with 3 free platings.
This was really in depth thanks haha. I wish i knew how to play JG brother
There were actually 3 of the “Spirit” items:
Spirit of the Spectral Wraith, Spirit of the Lizard Elder, and Spirit of the Ancient Golem.
Ancient Golem used to build from Spirit Stone and Kindlegem, but was later changed to build from Quillcoat and Kindlegem. It was kinda like a Thornmail for junglers back in the day. I cut my teeth jingling with Maokai, running Ancient Golem and Sunfire
I got into League because of the Jungle role being a thing and Master Yi being a good starting Jungle. Glad I finally gave League a shot and I love to play Jungle. This was a very insightful video about it since I only started playing the beginning of this year. Would have thought you’d mention the pets now since they are the new and only way to upgrade Smite
Jungle is by far the only role where I seriously have fun, I can get gold and exp without having to watch my enemies movement and try to avoid their attacks, but it gets frustating if your team loses more than 2 lanes and the enemies start warding every single corner of your jungle and take every single camp, that's like the only point where it's unplayable, but top is really fun too, I just recently started playing cameel and she's fun to play and what I like most about top lane, I barely get ganked, unless I play a champ that I'm not so good with or I'm yone/yasuo
the most consistent part of jungling is being flamed 😭
The most consistent part of the jungle is getting reworked two times a year
I just mute all. It got to the point where even their pings started annoying me
@@mikoajciemiega8018 The most consistent part is that the jungle always gets different meta champs by a few small item changes
Maybe that's an unpopular opinion and i don't care, but league was much MUCH more fun to play when jungle was "a secondary support" and the early game actually felt like you vs your direct opponent, the fact that i always have to worry more about where the jungler is rather than whatever is happening in front of me bothered me so much when i came back to League.
A role that when played good is allowed to impact this much of the map with next to no downsides due to how forgiving the current jungle is, shouldn't be a thing IMO, that's why they kept nerfing mid over and over.
Still convinced that jungle is broken nowadays due to the fact that the guy who writes the patch notes is a jungle gold hard stuck and he convinced that his teammates are holding him back.
You kind of answered the question in the first sentences. It is the most important/impactful role, because it is the most difficult and has the highest skill ceiling. In order to be good you need to: Know your teams and enemies team win cons and make a plan b4 game starts. You need to know ALL lane matchups so you know where you're gonna have prio / kill pressure / have to cover dives etc. Additionally while the game you must micro your clear and use F keys to observe if the original plan is working or you need to adapt your strategy because your autofilled toplaner is losing a usually winnning lane matchup. You also need to know common clear speeds and routes from junglers, and must track enemy jungle and provide vision for your locked camera, full mute, not listening to pings laners. Likely I didnt even mention everything, but as you see, since there is so much skill ceiling it is easier to gap your opponent. I also think that its a bit overused to just say jgl gap gg. What laners dont want to understand, if you die to a gank at 3:30 where all junglers finished their clears and look for ganks and you didnt put a ward and die, its not jgl gap, you are just bad at the game. Oftentimes Laners just give junglers too much stuff to work with by dying and feeding very unnecessary deaths.
tl;dr: If you good jgler you deserve win more than other roles. Laners are dumb monkeys that feed and blame jgl.
I am a jungle main and honestly I do think that jungle has to much power, but not in the form of being 1v9, but in there being too little risk, the jungle is simply too safe as of right now, and all the camps give you a lot of gold/xp, jungle should be about ganking and getting your hands dirty, and not power farming. Jungle has control over all 3 lanes at all times it will always be 1v9 it should just be riskier to do so
Making one of the most important roles in the game as easy as it has been took out all the excitement and proper mind games out of the jungle for me. I mained Elise which is an early game champ. It was practically impossible to punish champs in the jungle or to go for gank oriented strategies when there's so much protection and so much comfort and safety. While there's more incentive for a newb to play and more of a champion pool, the scale has tipped towards the power farmers, the tanky, the no risk investment champs almost deleting other types of viable strategies in the game. It was one of the reasons why I left.
Jungle definitely doesn't have too much power, just imagine if your team is too greedy and can't wait for you to get into position and just go in without hesitation feed the enemy and the enemies always come to your jungle or try to pick you, that's unplayable, even having a good cs or being fed doesn't bring you out of that unless you can hyper carry or the enemies are inting, if your team is bad early game, then they'll be worse in late game, I'm gold in soloq and my teammates had a big difference than in flex where I'm currently still bronze, it's just horrible if your team sucks, I carried 2 out of 3 games, but yet it was too close to lose because my team was a bunch of garbage that didn't even understand the game, none of them didn't even look onto the map which already makes you a bad player in my opinion + the enemy team was garbage too, but guess just better than my team, in a game I was able to carry without any towers left, even with no nexus towers and that as an evelynn against a viego and a few other annoying champs that I don't remember, but their viego was seriously so ass, I think they were even premades of 5, they tried to pick me but failed at that and I also got a point where I had a 3 lvl difference on viego
I think you are right. Jungle is always ahead of the curve in terms of gold even if they do not gank a single lane. I think that really does not make sense for a role that is always on the map. It is just a role with so many options and you basically in control of what plays your team can make.
@@AplicFlare Jungle is only far ahead if no single lane is gankable, if a jungler has to gank every single lane and if your whole team are pigs, then it's over for you and your team, because if they can't just sit 2min under tower or atleast not die, you won't be able to clear camps fast enough + the enemy jungle can easily punish you, if you're top and you haven't finished your bottom camps
being a jungler means you do 100 good deeds like ganking or objectives and no one cares, yet you make 1 mistake, suddenly your teammates blame you like their parents just saw their report card
So true, my theory is League is a roller coaster game and some players get really emotionally invested in the phases of how the match goes.
You dont even need to make a mistake. If they make a mistake its your fault
especially if your team has 1 duo, they'll insult you so hard and don't even care if they get reported, they'll literally just start flaming you out of nowhere for the rest of the game, no matter what you do, especially after you make 1 mistake, it's incredible
@@seokmin3292 they are descendants of TF Blade or rather his clones
@@alex2005z if they feed the enemy bot it's your fault, if they have 4 deaths in 5 minutes without the enemy jgl ganking them, then it's also your fault, honestly bot lane might be the most pathetic role with the most pathetic players in lol, top and mid are totally chill, today I had a top shyvana who typed "I love you so much" after I made her lane completely free and broke the enemy's top mental, but we lost because our lvl 59 bronze katarina can't play the game (I hate flex) + she also typed jgl diff when I almost carried the game (had her muted tho since she pinged me in early game for no reason and after the top me and the bot lane called her out, she muted herself)
It became too important to a point that if your team jungler dont do anything for 20 mins, game is over but dear lord if your jungler is active one it is gg
There is no betweens
you know your game is won if your jungler has good cs (and consistently makes good cs per minute) and makes good ganks
At that point you don't have a jungle, you have a hobo
I complained so much about jungle last season. Little did I know I didn't know how good I had it. They are so toxic, too. The power Riot has given them so that queue times aren't too long has really gotten to their heads. Kingmaker role that can also 1v1 my top laner just from the gold from their camps alone, a role where the catchup experience allows for a jungler getting doubled in CS and be the same level? Yeah, okay. Looking forward to next season's jungle buffs and looking at the r/Jungle_Mains subreddit and seeing them complain about buffs that are "actually nerfs" for the 5th season in a row.
@@AplicFlare Junglers aren't toxic, the team is toxic, because we get blamed for every single thing, also if you didn't know, league of legends is a game made by riot, of course it's toxic, what do you expect? If you play a game with a mindset that there wouldn't be anyone that's toxic then you shouldn't play that specific game
@@AplicFlare Also, jungle camps are the same as 3 minion waves, the difference is that you have to walk to each camp and nobody clears all of them immediately, even full clear can be stupid early game, you can't full clear every game and you can't clear camps every time, especially not if camps are ready or if lanes are gankable, I don't really understand your problem with junglers, a jungler is supposed to be important, a jungle would be useless if he could easily get far behind, or even just a bit because a small gold diff in this game can be heavy
i miss when jungle was not the single most important role in the game. i also miss when there was a much small pool of junglers. really jungle is really blooted. bring back season 5 jungle that was the best time to jungle. i loved the buff you got off the different camps it was so fun.
I wish bot lane was the most important role so I could flame all the adc and support mains who typed jgl diff in chat when they were literally the reason why we lost
The way jungle changed over the years
Is such a great example of how numbers can never fix bad design
They have shrunk the effective map size by half
Man seeing the old stonewall clips brings back some good memories
as a jungle main (bel’veth), it has become way to important to the point that having anyone else in my lane makes me feel i will lose no matter what, and if the enemy jungler gets even one kill they will be a monster to the point that the game may aswell be ff ed at 15
awesome video! could be cool if you could make this a series talking about each roles history?
What is the song in the background, ITS KILLING ME. I cannot remember it for the life of me.
Wriggle's lantern really threw a lot of caster junglers and tanks under the bus and prolly single handedly made every auto attacking champion viable in the jungle
Can we stop the "dragon souls" are instawin buttons bias? If you get dragon soul it means that you have the map control to take 4 drakes so you are winning or at least slightly above(maybe both teams are at soul point with no clear winner) and the buff of dragon soul is the step to go from winning to stomping or from being slightly ahead or even to being thw winning team. I wonder the winrate of dragon souls with comparable team gold+dragons taken i think it os not 90% but in the range of 60.
Dragon soul is indeed a huge buff, but the correlation to win rate isn't completely causation.
Due to the power perception, the team that is already ahead is more likely to win the fights for it.
Old Season 3-5 jungle was way healthier overall in my opinion, with the exclusion of some of the broken stuff that popped up here and there like it always does in league. In my opinion jungle shouldn’t even be a role, it’s almost always been the root cause of pro-play being slow and boring 75% of the time. Good players just play safe and only fight when they have the jungler coming to gank and have a massive advantage of 2v1. Since junglers roam around mostly un-checked the only smart way to play is to play as if they are waiting to gank at all times, until you get vision of them. It just makes for slow boring early game play styles. I think jungle should be something that happens after the first 7-10 minutes of the game, and the camps should be hard to clear and require a specific type of champion, kind of like it used to be. Those jungle champs would trade maybe cc or overall power in fights with the ability to increase gold and exp gains for their team. Then you might have strategies that either use or don’t use the jungle, and it wouldn’t be a cookie cutter setup each game.
The fact you forgot about Elder golem despite the fact it was the one most commonly built of the three by the junglers themselves is somewhat amusing. It gave a large block of health and tenacity which would often transition smoothly into typically Iceborn Guantlet. Unfortunately for all of the bruisers that would utilize the build, Ezreal kept getting the lizard and gauntlet nerfed because the first iteration of blue ez was wrecking pro play too damn much.
If you wanna use winrate to prove dragon soul significance, you first need to understand the gamestate required to get soul in the first place. In order to get all drakes, you need consistent bot prio (can get into a whole thing about adc meta here), a jungler who is out-tempoing the enemy, better teamate rotations. All of these are markers of the better team, a team that's more likely to win by all accounts. By the time the better team has soul, then the gamestate has already compounded by many other factors, the soul itself mostly being an indicator of gamelength. So, it's not the soul buff, but rather an indicator of the better team in the first place.
And this is not even to mention the likelyhood of ending a game off an objective fight lategame.
In order to get soul you need a gold lead. Thats it. You need to be winning. Bot prio is optional as by the time you are actually fighting for the final drakes laning phase is over.
@@alex2005z Yeah what I meant by that is getting the prior drakes to soul point.
Does anyone know the music playing throughout the video? It's been stuck on my mind for some reason and I can't figure out what it's from
Would have been nice if you had mentioned our new jungle pet friendos, but for the most part the conceptual idea was already covered by you in the video anyways. I think it would have also been better if you had gave a little focus from the shift from support or tank junglers to carry junglers instead of just showing us we got to a point where anything could jungle. This could have either been a shift in meta or charcters, or thought process.
I think saying that because a team has soul they win more might be a bit of missing the forest for the trees, as i think it would be a fair assumption to say that the team who either gets soul uncontested or wins the fight for soul is already ahead at that point in the game before entering that deciding point
Remember 54% WR Jungle Graves? They had to buff him in S13 just so he could climb out of 49%...
He was never nerfed inbetween those two events - everyone else eclipsed him.
Me playing shyvana and just farming the whole game and never ganking:🍷
shyvana dance on mid lane while smiting the canon
What's the bgm on this video? It's so familiar but i can't place it.
7:07 Not sure what you mean by "presence in every game" when jungle was a permanent role since season 1 in ranked queues. I never encountered games where WW/Fiddle/Shaco/etc were not jungling in season 1.
I swear, jungle in pro play is literally now Sejuani/Maokai pick/ban. Its been that way since worlds
Now we have rell as well
that's because they got hardcore cc lmao, cc is the key to win, if your team picks 2 game carries you just pick someone who has a lot of cc and in pro play easily every player can carry the game, so yeah cc is definitely one of the most important things in pro play, I don't think in low elo it matters that much because everyone is a pig
@motafu1 not just cc, but engage. Cc that you can use to start a fight. Very important, otherwise a decent player will never get caught out. I mean who would get caught out if the enemies engage is braum q?
I do think it’s impacts is great for pro play, but becomes toxic for solo-que. Especially once you consider how impossible it is to have the losing jng
very cool to see all the stonewall008 gameplay, watching his videos on youtube is how i learned to jungle and got into the role in the first place. really missing the spirit stone items, tank item gave %hp, and you could get %hp runes with the old rune pages too, i'd build full health on old voli and never died
I remember Ekko was first intended a mid laner and not a jungler, the shield is just a concidence. And then Riot start to shift him toward the jungle tho.
Me, watching all my laners get either solo killed or duo killed before I can full clear: ah yes, jgl diff
the bot lane incident
7:25 what about support items? They have the same function and they didn't get deleted
6:36 wasn’t bloodrazor or devour a counterpart to guinsos rageblade ?
As a Jungler, and watching your video, I think over the course of the game's lifespan they wanted to equalize Junglers and Laners not necessarily make the Jungler a "1v9 Role" in design.
It seems the game was meant to be played in lane, and there was no champion meant to be balanced specifically for jungle in its early time. Hence as the video showed, the Jungler was always "behind" as they had to accommodate getting exp and gold in a different way than the laners who had the safety of minions. So time, resources, gold was wasted on items just to survive the jungle, you start sort of one step behind. So items were made to compensate a Champion in the jungle. Even in other game modes, even in recent times, like Ultimate Spellbook, the Jungler was forced to lose a summoner spell as every Laner could choose to have Summ + Ultimate spell, but the Jungler was forced to have Smite + Ultimate spell and therefore you lose out on precious flash while every other Laner didn't lose out as much.
But now that the Jungle is more or less compensate like a Laner (an arguable point depending on balance and meta) the prevalence of this "1v9 role" or "most Important Role ever" comes from the innate freedom of the Jungler as opposed to Laners. The Jungler doesn't have minions contested from him in a traditional sense, has resources and sustain in the jungle, and can go anywhere they chose to make some sort of outcome for their team while a traditional Laner has to go to their Lane. This is both a boon and a curse, a double edged sword perhaps. A Laner has guaranteed resources, but if they fail they can't go back to their lane. If a Jungler fails somewhere, they can opt to simply go elsewhere on the map, but also they don't have guaranteed resources. If you lose ground on your jungle the resourceful go with it. So on, and so forth. Really good players, smurfs, etc, know how to use this freedom to take over the map, and it looks like then its the most important role, but its difficult in its decision making.
Its kind of like...Laners have a salary, but Junglers have a commission. I do not envy Riot trying to balance Jungle and Laners, but also I wish they'd figure out something and stick with it. Every season I have to relearn everything, from pathing, farming, objectives, champion strength with new starting items, etc.
Season 6 had a keystone mastery called Strength of Ages that was almost must take on junglers. It gave 20 perm max health on siege minion kill and 10 on large monster kill up to 300 max. When at max stacks and you kill a large monster, you restore 6% of max health.
To perfectly describe my response to my friends wonder of why I jungle. It's the weight of responsibilities that piqued my interest, back in season2 all I wanted to do was farm and gank. Get dragons, be a team player. Nowadays, it's absolutely mental and similar to laners, I've gotten hard jungle diffed on both opposing sides because now there are so many factors to keep track of. It's actually mental to keep going.
Its either you do good early game and miss out late game or you are a powerhouse fighting against your own team with your keyboard
I remember the red smite release. I went Fizz and his W+Red+Ignite+RedSmite burn were great
one part of Jungle history that I feel like needs to be pointed out - there was a time fairly early on where Riot seemed very willing to try to discourage jungling as a primary role, before eventually coming to embrace the concept as pro play started to grow and evolve.
I'm 6 minutes in, and can't help but notice there was no talk of the one and only wriggles lantern? Bis item back in the day? Surprised it wasn't brought up
I used to jungle Karthas in s1-s3 it was a wild time back then and most ppl didnt think Karth could jung.
A note on the "wight" camp (now Gromp camp):
It's true that this camp didn't always exist. Crazy, right? Have you ever noticed that every single other camp in the game has a little "nook" built into the physical walls of the map, except Gromp? That's because he was added after the map had been finalized. The main reason he was added is that the blue side was of the jungle was just massively worse. Think about it: without Gromp, the blue side would only have a single camp plus the buff. At best it was 3 camps to 2, but more realistically since buffs have a longer respawn timer than minor camps, it was more like 2 camps to 1. It was **literally** not worth your time to walk over and kill just wolves, leading to an awkward proto-form of vertical jungling where you just ignore your blue side entirely unless the buff is up. This also lead to unhealthy jungle pathing and spam ganking the same lanes.
*minor camps also respawned much faster in those days, so it was more economical to ignore one camp. The others would come up soon enough... first, it's time for your fifth mid gank.
Jungle and ADC are the most terrifying roles for me. Adc because what sane person logs onto league and thinks I'd like to be vulnerable and rely on my league team mates to help me come online.
But jg because it's the reverse...not only do I need to be the guy that saves the day but I'm STILL relying on my team mates to set something up.
As an OG top main I know the difference it can make to get even 1 gank, especially vs a squishy or immobile enemy. And yet I can ping omw, actually type out 30s, just literally sit in a bush. Somehow any interaction from me tells them to push wave as hard as possible and then let the enemy freeze under tower....
I try to go bot and they just back.
Mid laners you are my only friends thank you for seeing pings and responding.
Do a documentary for each role
As someone who played since the beginning and loved experimenting with potential jungle champs as the game progressed, it's very frustrating now to feel railroaded into "if you're not playing this list of definitive jungle champs you're throwing" because it's almost impossible to account for the absurdly superior clear speeds. It used to be possible to play a champ in the more "supportive" style of gank jungling and build enough of a lead to carry that way without necessarily having to clear every camp on every rotation, and powerfarming the jungle with minor counter jungling *could* work a decent part of the time, but there was a pretty good chance you were generally a weaker champion than someone that had been successfully ganking lanes consistently. This made powerfarming much more risk-reward. This in combination with the fact that this was back when the average game length was much, much longer-- having a powerfarming jungler would come out of the jungle with almost no ganks for the first time to destroy everyone happened more around 35-40 minutes, not as early as 20.
As a JG main, I was immediately excited to see this vid pop on my feed.
Also IIRC didn't tyler1 had the most difficulty with top and jg? With Mid and Support being the easiest.
Mid and Support are the most irrelevant roles in league and it's 100% correct, tell me a game where the support was any important in late game, enchanters maybe, but everyone else is just useless, the only thing supports are good for is warding but that's almost everything in late game, a champ like taric is totally different tho, or a 1mil points yuumi who actually plays like she has 1mil points on yuumi
@@motafu1 Sup is literally as important as jungle in high elo lmao. Supports juat decide the fate of every objective and of bot/mid/jgl
@@motafu1 Supports gank mid so often and roam, look at champs that have hooks, or something like Bard. They're like a 2nd Jgl for mid. Not to mention how many fights are decided by a hook and taking 1 enemy out of the fight for free, or a Rakan knockup engage.
Also agree on the objectives since their job is to ward drake, river, sometimes buff etc to actually help at drake or with invading junglers
if JG was the most important role Faker will be a jungler. In solo Q it's always the JG fault because when each of the 4 laners share their POV it is a 4vs1 thus it seems jungler s the most important role ("my jg didnt gank my lane" or" the jg is not talking dragon", etc) but if you think of pro play most known gamers usually play the mid or adc role and junglers are a 2nd support. I ll love if you could include some numbers/stats to proof your point. thanks for the video
Gonna be honest, jungle specific items felt so much better as a non-jungler who got off-roled. That feels like it really has a bit more to do with the mythic system and how annoying mythics are, but when I was first learning the game and having fun with AP junglers, having the mini-Luden’s felt like an amazing item completion. Plus, the items looked cool in a plastic weapon kind of way.
since season 3 ive been playing jungle since my playmates dont want me a noob to ruin their game i only change role in season 11 (no kidding) since they stop playing so no one can shout into my headphones now i've change role and the first thing i notice is that laners have it easier since they have a tower to relay and they have 2 summoners spell that can change the flow of fights
Cloth armour and 5 pots opened up so many memories haha
with armor and attack speed runes you had to farm first 😂
I liked more of the two spirit JG item.
I felt them so good. They did gave good power and a overall good item, that I actuelly would buy even in non-junglers. (At least it's my opinion).
But probably the best maybe what we have to day. Now days problem is more of the Smite damage difrence. It better, then whene it was connected by the LV of the champion, but it still can happan, that one of the jungler has lower smite DMG.
And I don't know if it posibble some how. But I would like the spirit JG items back, in a adjusted form. Or maybe just some kind of reminder of the old camps in items or something. I know it just skin/look in practice, but I like the lizard and the wraith camp.
Seeing Sejuani and Ziggs in such an old summoners rift threw me off. I remember their releases and didn't realize league looked like that at the time.
You're mistaken. AS jungle item was counterpart of Rageblade. It was giving the same effect when fully stacked on monsters. There was even an AFK farming YI meta at some point.
Warrior items wasn't Ghostblade counterpart. It didn't have flat armor pen and movement.
The early part made me miss my old Tankwick... first 15 minutes: Press R for assist.
Madreds Bloodrazor: Look at me, I'm the carry now.
I really like this video, but I think I was expecting a bit more of the thing that had made the jungle as unbalanced as it is.
You cover a lot about how the jungle systems have been adjusted to allow the role to exist and slowly being impactful, however I think you could have gone more in depth with how these changes morphed the meta around them. Also I was expecting to hear about how a lot of junglers have been chain buffed for the last 3 seasons, and some champions have randomly become junglers because riot one day decided to buff their dmg to monsters.
I understand covering any of these would have made the video longer, I guess I was expecting more for the tittle of the thumbnail.
As a jungle main, we get flamed too much considering how much we have to do. Everyone expects you to constantly gank their lane and they dknt understand the need for opportunity and that their wave management is important for ganks and the rotations for clear might not always let you gank a lane.
This happens because when you cant do shit bc bad wave position is bad, or you decided to make a fullcklear , the enemy jungler makes random lvl 2 play on the other side of the map, and cant get seriosly punished, because due to jungle pet snack passive he will not lose that much of income , and successful gank will compensate losses even if he gets only assists, and even if its become bad for ganking jungler , a falling down on lane in 2-3 wasted waves is so miserable in lane, and almost guaranteed you that lane will won, so now you need to deal with strong opponent, while enemy jungler, being gapped for 3-4 lvls will farm safely with bonus exp bc WHY NOT?
After rewatching my master games i fucking realize , that there is 3 scenarios of 2 jaja interacting with map
1 they split the map and completely ruin life of weakside laner
2 they will go to same side and force random-ass coinflip scuttle fuckyourwavepositionifyouwonthelpmeiwillruinwholegame
3 strong erly game jungler will invade karthus-shivana-lilia-ect creature in their jungler that will again affect all laners to move to this action again
The fact that makes jungle broken is exp from behind, treasures from item, and almost full freedom to do what you want first 15 mins
Jungle and support is the only people in the game that not got stuck to their lanes because of resources maintaining , and can violently affect the map, the moment is - support is falling in terms of gold, junglers get +- same amount of gold and exp as laners , while while desiding fate of the lanes (if there is no skill issue or "intellect champions")
Most jungers get fullclear (so lvl 4 as well) before sololaners get lvl4 , so they just stronger in terms of stats, the pets make jungle clear a easy trip , so they are full hp, and junglers designed in a form to have hard cc or slow or ect , its not much you can do , you have to shut the fuck up and respect the jungle powerspike , and if your jungler at that time does nothing, while you died or forced to stay under turret to lose a full lvl of exp , that leads to later lvl6 , thats leads to more loses or even towerdive (and if you get doved erlygame and has no tp, your lane is over) , you really will want to help your jungler go 0/1 (in game)
Like adc has scaling but has to rely on others in erly, supports has impact erly , but later they just supports to the protagonists , midlaners has impact over map , but can be violated from others, toplane is just a lastpick balls torture simulator that can become even worse if someone interrupt and ruin life of one of them, that will create or the less impactfull player of the game, or the hardest 1/9 machine
And jungle ..... Well, it has a huge affection to the erlygame, it is insanely important to take objectives in midgame , and they have resourses and scalings aswell , so with riot love and updates , exp from behind and treasures , so you wont get violated so hard 😊😊😊😊😊😊😊
AND IT LOOKS LIKE NOONE CARES ABOT TOPLANER THAT GET DOVED AT LVL 3 BY RENECTON+REKSAI, TP/D BACK JUST TO GET FUCKED WITH RENECTON+REKSAI+RELL LOST 3 WAVES WORTH OF MINIONS AND 2 LVLS BEHIND, WENT BACK TO LANE JUST TO NOTISED THAT YOUR LANE IS FROZED AND A FUCKING REKSAI SITTING IN THE BUSH, THAN RENECTON GETS LVL 6 AND YOU GET FUCKING DOVED ONCE AGAIN AND AFTER THIS YOUR ONLY OPTION TO SAVE SOMETHING THAT LEFT OF YOUR MENTAL HEALTH IS JUST LEAVE THE GAME AND FORGOT ABOUT THIS GAME😂😂😂
NOT TO MENTION THAT YOUR JUNGLER THAT SUCCESSFULY GANKED BOT AND GET TO YOUR TEAM 2 FLASHES AND A KILL WILL RANDOMLY DECIDE TO GO FIGHT REKSAI , BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING COULD GO WRONG RIGHT? THE FED LVL 6 RENECTON DEFINITELY WILL NOT MURDER EVERYONE RIGHT?
13:18 that is just a total lie.
The fastest role t1 reached challenger on was support. Some part of that are being the last role he needed to get challenger on, thus having ample experience. Also, t1 spent 1800+ games trying to reach challenger in jungle, so the amount of time spent is not equivalent to the amount of effort needed, it’s the number of games he played that really matter.
He spent more games trying to reach jungle than any other role, but honestly that does not mean anything. It’s like a master swordsman learning how to use a katana in 5 months, then proceeding to learn how to use a halberd in 3 months. This doesn’t mean anything as there are a lot of transferable skills between the two, so that does not automatically make the halberd an easier weapon to use over a katana. T1 spending 1000+ games to reach challenger in one role, and proceeding to reach challenger in less time in another role does not mean that one role was more difficult than the other. The only thing that can be gathered from that is that t1 just became better at the game.
Honestly this remark you made about t1 was pretty stupid and irrelevant.
I would argue that Support is equally - if not more - impactful over the course of multiple games. Support, like jungle, is all about being in the "right place at the right time". However, support is much harder to track (because you aren't tied to jungle clear), and the champions within the role have incredible innate value: even if you hard int 0/10 on support, you can still change the outcome of a teamfight because of the raw utility within your kit, which no other role can consistently do. Because your impact is tied to your ability to snowball your TEAMMATES and your performance within teamfights, you will always have agency over the game if at least 1 of your teammates is doing well. I often hear the counterargument that supports can't 1v9 like junglers can, but I argue that they don't need to: if all 4 of your teammates are so awful that a skilled support can't create a gold lead + carry teamfights, the game was doomed no matter what you played. Also, the macro on support is a lot simpler than other roles for the first 20m, so you have a lot of mental real estate to digest the game state & guide your teammates to the correct play. This is exacerbated if you stay away from more mechanically challenging supports like Bard, Pyke, or Thresh, though you can definitely still shotcall on those champions too.
Stop coping, even riot's balancing team says junglers have the highest agency in soloQ and they're still looking to nerf their early power (riot phreak and riot phroxon recent interviews/videos).
@@k9tirion927 I'm a Master support main, from my perspective Support is the role that is most consistently able to impact + carry games. Jungle is much higher-risk and some games you will have no impact because of circumstances out of your control
support falls off in late game unless you're a champ like taric, I never had a game where the support was carrying the game, it was either me, my top or mid lane, bot lane is just different, a good draven can easily carry tho or a good vayne, everything else garbage tho, maybe samira too, but I think samira players have too much of a main character mindset who think they should get all the kills and always want to get a pentakill, but that's just my opinion
@@motafu1 you are mistaken about support falling off, most supports scale very well, and also have much greater game agency before 20m than adcs. Maybe supports don't carry in gold-plat, but it's very easy to carry on support in higher elo. It could also be that you aren't good at spotting supports who are carrying: supports aren't getting flashy pentakills to carry games, but they still are carrying.
I think the emergence of the jungle role really kicked off the pro scene as now each player could have a position, like other sports. It wasn't just 5 random people thrown onto a game map, it was 5 positions head to head on the field. While increasing the complexity kept the game from getting too stale from match to match (like adding the different dragon types), I think it did hurt the sports-like nature Riot had developed up until about that point.
Is it weird that my favourite and least favourite jungle change are the same? Because back in season 11, I thought the idea of not having to upgrade the jungle item to be brilliant. I still do, to this day, as it gives players freedom of choice.
However, its implementation was awful. Just about every early game jungler enjoyed having their first buy at 2250 gold (full jungle item was 2600, but you always start machete, so that's -350). When mythics were implemented, all of a sudden that powerspike got delayed by at least 3 kills. Sure, they spiked harder, but when it came down to early game junglers, spiking faster is more important than spiking harder. In addition: because you can no longer buy the smite upgrades, you almost always get it significantly later than you used to before Season 11, where you could consistently get by your first recall. And that's not even all: the smite quest only stacked when using smite. Kills and assists wouldn't give you stacks. So by ganking you delay your won smite upgrade. What could have been the best change in the jungle's history ended up as one of the worse.
The infinite sustain, meanwhile, made it really hard for early game junglers to punish power farmers by invading and hunting them down directly because everyone took so much longer to die.
What I hate the most about the modern jungle is how you're practically forced to power farm. Back in the day full clearing was considered greedy, something only the Yis or other champions with protagonist syndrom did. Nowadays it is the norm. Even the likes of Lee Sin and Elise full clear half of the time.
This was the change that made me leave after so many others. I see you might be a Shaco fan, and I was an Elise/Evelynn main. It's not so much important for Evelynn, but it somewhat made some difference even for her. As for Elise, it fucked up my game plans so much that there wasn't an incentive to play my main champion anymore, especially if I was climbing the lower elos as they don't fucking know what to do with early game advantages. I honestly don't even know the state of the jungle as I avoid league content, but I'd bet that solo que might be a power farming fest and pro play might have gone to the tanky junglers that can farm as fast as possible. Sad days for me, and probably for you, because the early game strategies, ganking focused champs and mind games might not be as viable as they once were.
@@hikariluanGC the last jungler with great ganks Riot released was Rek'sai. That was in 2014. (Or Nunu, if you want to count reworks, but even that was still in 2018).
Elise is actually first choice should Shaco be unavailable.
I'm not keeping up with the meta either, in part because I lost some interest but mostly because real life got busier. Seasons 10 to 12 were power farming nightmares, but from what I've heard, season 13 is actually not too bad.
I kind of miss those little buddies red and blue buff had during the SR visual update
I don't love the point about soul winrate making it an "instant win button." That winrate is almost certainly a way larger reflection of the culture we have around dragons--that each one starting with the second, third, or fourth (depending on game) is an event that most players should be coming to. This means that the team that wins the dragon is often also often winning a teamfight, creating gold and pressure leads. More to the point, the team that was already ahead is a lot more likely to win these fights or otherwise be able to secure the dragon. It's entirely possible, if not likely, that it is often optimal to play strategies emphasizing heralds and towers over dragon (especially if the enemy is rotating too many players to them), but this simply isn't how we play, and trying to play this way will get you flamed. Soul doesn't matter if you're down 3 inhibitors or a nexus for it.
Otherwise, great video! I learned a lot of history as a Jungle main who only started playing in season 12.
wasn't jungle the second hardest role to hit chall for T1?
If i remeber correctly he had to play offstream and spammed Ivern to achieve this.
I think support was the easiest and he called it a baby role
Yes, took him 2000 games to reach chall in jungle, 400 for Midlane, 500 for support and around 800 for top lane, idk what this guy went on with that
Thats probably just him being a worse jungler than laner
@@alex2005z jungle gets severely out-resourced by almost every lane, except botlane, you're almost 2 levels behind if you only take your own camps, off cooldown, and you're a good chunk of gold behind as well, so I don't know if I believe jungle to be the strongest role, it used to be because you got so many resources so quickly, but you don't anymore
@@Atlasm2p it still is preety good to carry, as your carry potential isnt just related to your resources. Its much more impactfull than top
@@alex2005z depends on the ELO, feeding other lanes is good when people aren't absolutely incompetent, but if they are, like in low elo, then feeding your botlane doesn't matter if they're gonna go 7/190/0
i really want to see a jungle item rework. Give us the "knives" that used to be in early league, maybe make them scale like support items??? Make a jungle item that can give vision, I WANT TO BE A JUNGLER THAT CAN PLACE LOTS OF WARDS MAN PLEASE
I don't play anymore, but there used to be an item that allowed us to place 2 wards and it reset every time we came back to base. It was one of the upgrades of the "knives" back in the day. It was so much fun because it allowed me to control the whole map, especially in lower elos, with ease. They dumped the item on the excuse that there was too much vision for the pro players and it made the fun and surprising stuff disappear which led it to be quite stale for pro games viewers. It was one of the reasons why I left.
Just use the normal wards and just buy control wards, as a kayn and eve main I only get red ward as kayn and as eve I want to stay invisible as much is possible, if the enemies know where I am, then I can't pick anyone and after I learned that I shouldn't but sweepers on her, I found out that I can get more kills if the enemies don't see me (which is obvious as evelynn)
I remember back in the day being told to give kills to the laners if possible since I was just the jungler.
I enjoyed the background music
I think that, in the begining, the dificulty was inside the jungle. In season 3 to 5 was dificult to just stay alive and healty to gank after clearing camps.
Now, there is no dificulty inside the jungle anymore. And because of that, you have this window wide open to think the best ways to impact the game over the map.
But this shows the real gap between someone who is just playing to kill something or farm to someone who is thinking the best and fastest way to win the game.
The jungle role became the team's brain, he chooses when and where the team will put pressure, and this constant decision usually change the game drastically, for better or worse.
And this is why, "jungle gap" is pretty common.
seeing stonewall always takes me back
He was such an underrated youtuber back in the day
Al-l-l-righty then it's time for a Jungle -insert champion here- game (Voice check 1) (Voice check 2)
I started playing in april of this year and holy shit does that early gameplay look like a completely different game. I really thought I missed the bandwagon on league, but it looks waaaayyy more smooth today. Edit: Ive played exclusively jungle and can confirm every single loss I take is my fault entirely.
Vars if you see this you should dig into Dota 2 and compare the uses/impacts of the jungle. It would make for a fascinating comparison with League. Having played both I can personally attest to how different they feel despite being the same concept.
I've been playing jungle for 10 years now. I can tell you it's a very paradoxical role.
You are simultaneously the most useful and useless nothing at the same time.
It depends too much on the team as a whole at emerald+ ranks.
facts
Ever since 12.10 aka the durability patch the most powerful role has been ADC by a significant margin. Maybe that'll change now that Riot seems to be trying to bring assassins back up to snuff but we'll have to see. I'd rank the roles like this right now: ADC >> jungle = support > mid >>>> top.
Jungle, by its nature, is supposed to be the x factor role. This is why the role is so powerful. It is not that the role scales better or has better objective taking power, because if you have a losing bot lane kiss the first two dragons good bye, and if your mid lane never has priority you cannot contest the objectives. NO, the reason for the power of the jungler is because they can go to a lane and mess up the balance of that lane by providing a quick numbers advantage. During the laning phase, and the laning phase only is the time of the junglers power. I have played countless games where I have crushed laning as a jungler, but because my mid was trash and lost first tower, you can no longer get any of your resources because the enemy team takes it from you. The problem with jungle is not that it is an unbalanced position, it is that the position is a very knowledge check position. If you do not know how to deal with a jungler than you will lose, but if you know how jungle works you can force them out of a game.
as someone who did come back last year since quitting early s4 I can confirm game is now alien and I decided to just play aram and tft.
I hate some mid lane assassin were pushed into jungle and also viego. Jungle used to be control and support your lane to win now it's just jungle diff + champion diff
I wish every jungler wouldn't be able to counter another jungler this much, if you play against a counter and they know how to play then it's literally over, I had one game where I was kayn against a kindred and this kindred was perma invading and abusing early game, I couldn't do anything and her auto attacks slowed me too, it was impossible to reach her because she has billions of dashes, I ban kindred every game now, but sometimes I face khazix and everytime the khazix player is the biggiest 🐱 in the world, everytime they are low hp they literally just ult and use ghostblade + they use their jump, impossible to follow that even as kayn
Yes and the biggest counter to jg is your own team. Literally here we have a role that basically calls the plays. That only works if your team actually listens to your plays. I’ve lost so many drakes because bit lane refuses to help despite having lane priority and/mid not rotating but the enemy team just comes and my team stays in their lane and then flames for me losing drake. Everyone loves to blame jg but more than 90% of the time, it’s the lanes who lose the game for the jg making it hard to come back. Plus when you have the enemy team taking your farm, you are forced to sit in base while
Your team gets the minions to try and make a come back. I started just perms ganking even if it’s not good to force a spell to make it earlier for the laner because my lord these Lakers suck. I basically have to int in order for my team to follow up by force instead of them ignoring all the calls.
We also need the ward smite back bro. These owners have 0 vision control. And and least with that item everyone is ok even playing field to use it while getting vision control on your own without your team.
As a jungle main, I'm glad that my team almost has to always rely on me and I'm glad that some of them help me get fed
remember when you could stack dark harvest from jungle camps? man i miss that
You didn’t mention the removal of tettering camps. Where ranged champs could deagro and reagro camps to avoid taking damage but increasing clear speed before they removed it for agro system they have now
Here is my idea how to fix jungle's solocarry potential.
First: nerf smite damage against epic mosters and give it a debuff that reduces armor and magic ressist so that it still is a huge help at taking down epic monsters but is more effective with other players being around.
Second: Rework Epic Jungle Monsters: Epic Jungle Monsters can not longer be stolen if a team dealt at least 75% of the monster's maximum life.
This way Junglers can no longer drive by steal epic monsters made by laners and laners get the chance to idenpendantly of the junglers do opjectives.
jg is without a doubt in solo ranked pvp the most impactfull role, it meaks or breaks most games, and it is usually the most deciding factor early game without a doubt. It has the ability to influnce the game the most . I do not think there is any doubt for that. Anyone that played solo q knows that having a good jg means win, almost all the time because it gets lanes feed.
11:00, is that nunu scripting.... ? Also, Rengar didnt have healing on his W, it used to only give extra resistances and some movespeed. When he was reworked they gave the heal
why did you think that he's scripting?
@@motafu1 How fast he was able to turn. Theres a script for sion / nunu where theyre able to turn on a dime with their ult / W respectively
Majority of League players dont know how hard jungle used to be back in the *cloth armor 5 health pots* days
Gotta point out what I believe to have been one of the most influential periods in the power of junglers. Feral Flare meta. Where the idea of carry junglers really came to life. Slow, methodical tanky junglers were completely pushed out of the role in favor of Attack Speed based carries like Xin Zhao, Udyr, and Master Yi. They would vanish into the jungle for 20 minutes and the game would be a 4v4...until whichever jungler emerged first with a stacked feral flare would be granted with a free win, as the other jungler could no longer stack for their flare because they lost every counter jungle fight. Laners could never leave tower because the jungler could now rush you down and click on you to death. Oh it was terrible, but at least it happened back when Riot had some balance standards and it was promptly nerfed. If Feral Flare happened today they'd give it "time for players to adjust" then fix it by nerfing ADC's and adding a new Bruiser item
Damn, it took me nearly 3 years to find out scuttle doesn't heal you anymore