Dennis Skinner and Enoch Powell | Thames Debate | 1978 | Part 1
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 พ.ค. 2017
- FROM THE LOCKET RESTAURANT A DEBATE ABOUT THE FUTURE OF THE GOVERNMENT HOSTED BY LLEW GARDNER WITH GUESTS RT HON BOB MELLISH MP, NORMAN ST JOHN STEVAS MP, JOHN PARDOE MP, DENNIS SKINNER MP, RT HON ENOCH POWELL MP , MARGARET BAIN MP AND RT HON REGINALD MAULDING MP
First shown: 20/11/1978
If you would like to license a clip from this video please e mail:
archive@fremantlemedia.com
Quote: VT20515
Frightening to see how erudite every contributor is compared to the shit we endure from media and politicians today.
Today 'Politics' is chased by carrerists - who see it as a 'means to line ones' pockets...'
I've worked with several & they were, to a man - totally bent....
John Morgan you are absolutely correct!
They weren't trying to be cool in those days it was about real common sense values and principles and they weren't afraid to speak their minds. It's when it politics became about personalities instead of principles that it started to take a downturn.
Quite right John, it's truly remarkable. Most contemporary politicians would never agree to be involved in such a discussion.
I'm reminded of Neil Postman's analysis in his book Amusing Ourselves to Death (1985) of what the cultural transition from newspapers to television had done to political debate in the United States. I think his arguments apply equally well to the transition from television to the internet and social media. Just look at how people get all worked up about a particular issue but completely forget about it as soon as the news cycle has moved on.
Absolutely agree! those halcyon days before television political debate had been dumbed down into cheap sound-bite entertainment
The erudition and knowledge of the nation's history on display here are, by today's standards, astounding!
Indeed.
The more I watch these older clips, the more I think we have lost our ability to debate and discuss issues of the day. They wait for each other to finish their points, and there is an air of respect between them all.
Totally agree.
I’m on the right wing, but I do have to say I have respect for Dennis Skinner and it is unfortunate see him loose his seat this election.
Respect to a genuine fighting man who committed his life to what he believed.
The right wing are never on the side of the working class they use the working class. Working class politics are left wing but not the left wing liberal debate they allow now which is all about culture war. Nonsense debates about nonsense subjects while the the real problems in the Uk go without discussion.
so you are a nonce
@@bs4754 The tories are also very fond of the culture war because it distracts from how badly they run the country and how much they hate the working class.
What makes you think you are right wing......with a name like Tommy I can already tell you are poor and working class ...so good luck with the tories son x
@@bs4754 The left in Britain needs to start tackling real issues instead of this culture war bollox.
Is it my imagination, or did we have a better class of parliamentary debate then? Even the S.N.P. member doesn't come across as a complete loony. Sadly, only Skinner is still with us.
@@tomross350 No sane person believes your rebranded Nazism.
Pardoe's still alive.
No, I think you are right. Democracy ensures that we are governed no better than we deserve. The electorate are prepared, in this age of identity politics, to vote for people who are clones of ourselves. We have all but abandoned the idea of rewarding excellence as we eschew elitism and and are assaulted daily by grotesque actors with more political ambition than talent. Information can be obtained in so many ways now, most importantly from the info-bubble of the internet. There is also the way mainstream news presentation has been reduced to infotainment, with short grabs struggling for attention in a collage of advertisements. It underpins the continuing need for a public broadcaster committed to transparency. Regrettably, with funding cuts and a preoccupation with political correctness, it too is loosing its gravitas.
your right people spoke and listened then
There wasn't as much of a wealth divide then, It leads to greater division.
Oh my god how the political minds of 2020 look so feeble compared to these guys here.
They were literally a different class/generation. There’s a Peter Hitchens clip somewhere where he talks about how you can actually see the split in parliament rooms between those that were educated before the 1960s and those that weren’t.
It’s quite an interesting idea if you think about it.
The modern generation of politicians learned the game of politics at a completely different time, from a different curriculum in some ways. The ideas of honourable character and common sense are definitely less of a priority in this era.
Don’t confuse their upper class accents with them actually knowing anything, it’s mostly just bluster. The lower classes have and still submit to those with this accent.
L
Because there from Straight from University . Previous MPs had jobs upto the point they decided to help their community .
The IQ of Parliament will double when Anne Marie Waters takes her seat.
Interesting that E Powell and D Skinner agreed on the analysis of the government's failed income policy.
Different sides of the spectrum but 2 very honest men which is why they found it easy to agree when one or the other said something that was logically correct
And the EEC (EU)
I love these old debates, they speak such beautiful English, thanks for uploading.😍👍🏻
I met Enoch Powell and had about a 1 hour conversation on roman and Russian history and unlike most politicians he was straight talking, he said to me that he had both labour and conservative MPs come up to him and tell him in private they agreed with his views on immigration, but not to mention their names in public as it would ruin their careers, he found this quite funny
Do you remember who they were?
@@miguelurdaci7884I imagine that Powell would have been too discrete to name them
Brilliant man of integrity was Professor John Enoch Powell.He invented Monetarism ,even though Friedman got the Nobel prize.Enoch was the greatest politician and greatest Classicist of his generation.He was the youngest Professor in the Empire.Spoke 14 languages.Was an interpreter in Urdu.Represented his constituents.Warned about and reigned over the gravy train EU in the seventies.Warned about unlimited immigration and resultant problems.Voted the most impressive MP.Historian,poet,parliamentarian.linguist,classicist,etc.Renaissance man RIP Professor Powell.
I'm a lifelong Labour man but I had enormous respect for Powell, didn't agree with a lot what he said but always backed up his opinions and debated reasonably with others.
He and Michael Foot seemed to have a genuine liking and respect for each other.
I’m on the other side, and have a deep respect for Skinner
I think Dennis Skinner was absolutely right about the EU. He’ll be much missed in the House of Commons. (And I say that even though I’m Tory scum🙂)
He hadn't debated reasonably but argued hatefully and xenophobic way.
@@colinbaldwin3833 Benn and Enoch Powell did as well. Whereas Powell often fell out with fellow Conservatives!
I think Dennis still has that jacket
He was the future once.
@@wilsonfisk6626 Thank god he's the past now
@@comedyaddict123 Britain faces a simple and inescapable choice stability and strong government with me or chaos with Ed Miliband.
@@wilsonfisk6626 what on earth are you talking about?
@@comedyaddict123 David Cameron warning us about Ed Miliband forming a coalition government with the SNP.
"No-no-no....I lean over backwards 'to find anything good ' to say about them"
A beautiful 'backhanded compliment' - delivered with a mischievous expression on Mr Powells' face......
Powell has a twinkle in his eye when he trolls the Tories and Skinner finds it quite amusing.
Outstanding. Both Skinner and Powell spoke well.
Absolutely amazing to see these debates reappear.
The respect and calm tone of this debate puts modern media/politicians to shame. The quality of the discussion is outstanding. I personally love the accents too. We"ve lost so much and become so spiteful and loud.
It's very true. Even if you disagree with some of these gentlemen and ladies politically, you can still tell that each and every one of them still loved their country deeply and the amount of civil discourse that you see here was nothing short of a grandness in character. Sadly we are very much lacking in these traits today. The MPs of today should belong in a comedy skit and not in the houses of Parliament.
one thing that stands out is the more gentlemanly form of debate rival politicians actually agree and argue without rancour
John Pardoe, one of the minority of Liberal Democrat politicians who was not tainted byscandal. Bob Mellish and Dennis Skinner, respectively representing southern and northern working class values. Norman St John Stevas, elegant and respectable.What a contrast to the snarling, sneering rabble of today
StJohn was undoubtedly a clever man, but his voice sounds incredibly condescending.
Yes; but they were were voted into power by British people
The two shining intellects here... Skinner and Powell
It's a shame skinner lived long enough to lose some of his intellect :/
@@comedyaddict123 that fate awaits us all, if we don't die young
Skinner had the intellect of a barrow boy...
@@comedyaddict123 He did not lose any of it. I disagree with him on Brexit but he is right on everything else. He passed the eleven plus aged 9, which shows his intellectual ability was already emerging before going to grammar school.
@@ajarnwordsmith628Did you or would you pass the eleven plus as he did aged nine? No, I thought not.
Surely the chair should have been interrupting contributors within seconds of them starting their response? I don’t understand?
From 20:03 it is wonderful to see Enoch Powell and Dennis Skinner agreeing! Two men of integrity and one of them is still with us. Good on you, Dennis!
Dennis skinner a man of integrity what load of coal
He's spent his life attacking right wing tories and when we have a right wing take over he agrees with them cos the folk would nt vote for him if he didn't
How can he agree with reece mog and farage he is a fraud
@@daysineuropa27 looks like they didnt vote for him after all
@@rec1962 yes very surprised but I think it is corbyn there not voting for not D S
@Sultan King yes I know he said that he did but how can he I mean farage and mog are the complete opposite of what he's been fighting against all his time in Parliament I
Now the the North is in for a worse time than the the thatcher years there's no unions and no organised opposition to a government that's gonna take from the poorest and give to the rich I really worry about the future of our country
@@daysineuropa27 if your talking about brexit skinner was against the eu since the beginning he condemns it in this video and said the north doesn’t want it the right being against the eu is a relatively new phenomenon but farage and Mogg sold it with nationalism vs sovereignty, wether or not you agree with brexit the fact that skinner stuck to his beliefs about the eu when the right adopted them rather than other anti eu labour mp’s who Stopped preaching against the eu because they didn’t want to be associated with The right out of fear of alienating the liberals sais he has a huge amount integrity, that’s literally what integrity means lol
You can tell that Enoch Powell and Dennis Skinner like each other; Two patriots that went into politics for the right reasons.
Exactly, you get the feeling that, as they both actually wanted to make the country better, they'd address the issues instead of calling criticisms a sign of being anti-UK like the current lot do.
List of Death By Year:
1979-Reginald Maudling
1990-Llew Gardner (Host)
1998-Enoch Powell
1998-Bob Mellish
2006-Margaret Ewing
2012-Norman St John Stevens
Dennis Skinner and John Pardoe is two of last Surviving of this Debate Programme Participant
Enoch and Skinner Two great men more similar than they would admit. They would both be pleased we have Brexit.
Yes, but I think they'd be outraged at how poorly it's been handled, there was no plan at all!
The plan was to follow protocol, Brussels moved to scupper at every turn unfortunately
@@seansweeney8911 never doubted it from day 1 of brexit.
Brexit has been a disaster
@@krishkrish8213 Incorrect. You can't judge it on 3 years when we had 47 years of EU membership failure
Can you imagine any of them making false expenses claims ? Me neither.
????? What... are you basing that on. Look it up several of them did!
So very good to hear a debate proceed using sensible language, and with an intelligence that sadly is widely lacking publicly and within our two democratic houses. This shows how much intellectual dumbing down there has been within society as a whole, since this was filmed.
Compare the level of this debate to that of the recent Conservative leadership debates. It's nothing short of tragic just how far this nation has fallen over the past forty years.
I love how when Enoch speaks, the whole room goes in uproar and his response is "I don't understand why I'm always upsetting the conservatives" hahaha
If only we had *ENOCH* As p.m. at that time..
UK could have powered ahead again..
@@jonsimmons4150 they guy who opposed the race relations bull ? Really ?
Meaning that you could refuse to employ, house and deny public services because of race .
Imagine calling an ambulance and they say your not white enough for you to use this service .
You think we would have been better off ?
This was Nigel Farage with a brain (education) . Smart man but still a prick
Infinitely better than Question Time.
This is what I look forward to in a debate these Gentlemen and Lady are excellent Debaters, we don't have any today!!!
I was 16 in 1978. I remember those times well. And I would like to say to all those people in the comments lamenting the changes in the way people debate and express themselves, just get at the substance of the arguments and not be hypnotised by way they sound. And I will admit one thing only here, that I believe there was at least some hope back in the day, but that was only because it was before the big sell out to corporate power really happened and challenging power was still a theoretical possibility.
Theoretical? Didn't the troubles occur?
The Great Enoch, had a great crystal ball !!
Nothing great about a white racist imperialist,glad he's dead
@@lamueldagon7618 He was only trying to protect his home land, history proves he was correct, just look at the mess now.
Edbutt What rubbish he was a racist arsehole and you are a fool for following him!
He had a bigoted glass.
@@sadelsor what history? British thiefing empire?
Watch part 2 of this fascinating debate here
th-cam.com/video/fo2U-68EgMo/w-d-xo.html
In my workplace we negotiated one of those sham productivity deals mentioned by Dennis Skinner. We - the union - knew it was a sham. The management knew it was a sham. The company could afford the deal but just wanted to get around the incomes policy. Incidentally, great to see Skinner saying "right" to Enoch Powell's point. Hard right and left coming together as they have today on Brexit.
I would think that both of these men were united in both realism and honesty.
Look how this brexit bullshit turned out
@@elmztana1201 get over it, a democratic process took place and by the sounds of things you backed the wrong horse, but on the flip side you have an excuse for everything that goes wrong in your life
@@Dev-ek6qm Rude and misguided response. It was an advisory referendum that should not have been called in the first place and could have been ignored. Brexit is a disaster and most know it. There are no benefits. The margin of victory was narrow and it does not represent majority opinion. One million who voted leave have died since too.
@@eightiesmusic1984 What's the point of holding a referendum if it is only ''advisory?''
The '75 ref. wasn't ''advisory'' was it?
General Elections aren't ''advisory''.
So what were the benefits of ever being in the EEC/EU,...we suffered huge trade deficits
for decades at vast cost,...£300 billion net paid in during 47 wasted years.
The EEC was a protectionist racket, a Franco/German stitch-up to asset strip the UK,
the CAP and CFP were both a disaster for our farmers and fishermen.
Wouldn't it be wonderful if politicians today could discuss the issues instead of scoring points over each other
Thanks for this! A real classic. Back to a time where politicians civically and intellectually debated.
Have you got any other archive interviews or debates with Powell you could upload?
Wow. What a find. Thanks for uploading.
Amazing to see how they micro managed the economy - productivity and wages
Bonkers - thank goodness that’s behind us
Is it though? The current tory government is more left wing than even callaghan's economically.
11:50 "No government of this country can exist without some sort of pay policy". What was once thought unthinkable or politically impossible is now accepted by all parties.
Every Government since Thatcher has had a pay policy just not a formalized one. To keep wages down. The first step was destroying the Unions(and British Industry along with them). And for British business its been a tremendous success. Especially after austerity where wages fell more than anywhere else in Europe except Greece! In the 70's there was a global financial crisis but living standards still rose faster than in the post Thatcher/Reagan era.
this country would of been better with a powell or skinner prime minester
Two great men on opposite sides of the political spectrum
Watching this made me realise that it is very rare to find a present day debate amongst politicians where they are not rehearsing lines and playing to the audience
Leaving aside your own political views, wouldn't you agree Enoch Powell and Dennis Skinner were fascinating to listen to? Passionate legends of British politics.
Fantastic debate. Sadly, politicians are nowhere near this level these days, from every party.
Fascinating. Thanks for uploading!
Can anyone imagine how long it would take Enoch Powell to take apart Johnson or Starmer?
I would disagree, John. Sir Kier Starmer has a forensic mind and as an accomplished QC has spent the majority of his adult life dismantling, word by word, claim by claim, false and deceptive arguments. Unfortunately, today's political class - exemplified by the Rt Hon Mr Johnson, or the Rt Hon Mr Rees-Mogg - means that Starmer is reduced to wrestling with pigs/playing chess with pigeons. And the "bread and circuses" mentality of the 21st century electorate favours the clown with scripted soundbites...
@@Kitty7507 Well we disagree. But such a pleasant change to be disagreed with so politely. Thanks. 👍
@@johnriggs4929 Thank you, John. If only we could return to that "British" way of debating - and fundamentally disagreeing about - politics and forever abandon the poisonous United States' "personality politics" and soundbite mentality? Anyway, have as good a weekend as we can these days. Pleased to meet you.
@@Kitty7507 Do you still believe Starmer is of a different class. He is struggling for me, this is likely to be the fact he is most likely constrained by his party. He should be on paper running rings around bumbling boris, or the sleaze that some of the other cons speak with.
@@Natural_law_lawyer The vaccine bounce has really helped the PM. Plus, people are bored and tired and pissed off after over a year of COVID restrictions and COVID news. The hard left are definitely hurting Starmer, and a tired, brow beaten and cabin fevered public are willing to overlook the *multiple* corruption scandals around Mr. Johnson just to be able to go shopping, or to the pub, or to the footie, or on holiday... Is the current shadow cabinet electable or even desirable? I'd have to say no; is Starmer as an individual a better politician and a better human being than Johnson? Absolutely yes.
This really is excellent. Great post thanks.
Takes me back a little but I was too young to be really understanding. I was just 14 at the time. I remember it well. My old fella was an Electrician down the pit, and I left school a year or two later to become a Mechanical Fitter down the same pit.
They were tumultuous and interesting times to be sure.
Dennis Skinner wow, the legend. And Powell in the same discussion... !
When Dennis Skinner talks the talk, look at the faces of the establishments!!!
DENNIS IS STILL IN PARLIAMENT, a peoples man.
He'll carry on till the end. Trust me.
Labour no longer trusted on immigration
Kerrie Grant not anymore
He is at home drunk shouting at the television.
He is out of touch' and always was
He is a fly in the ointment , with viable answers , a career rebel without a cause ' lebtoid
*ENOCH POWELL*
~ the benchmark by which all politicians should be compared.
Why I'm I watching this? And why I'm I enjoying it.
same reason I am watching, intelligent debate between opposite sides, each allowed to get his point out.
Enoch Powell vs Alan Partridge
Vincent Price vs Alan Partridge
Lmfao
🤣🤣🤣
Dennis skinner and Enoch powell..2 legends of parliament.
Whatever anyone's politicfs,these two men had passion and rigidity in their beliefs.
I can admire both gentlemen for their principled grasp on politics.
@@upturnedblousecollar5811Comparing Dennis to the likes of Enoch is the definition of a joke
@@StanTorrent No, it's the definition of StanTorrent's politics getting in the way of appreciating others who have a different viewpoint. That's all that got defined.
@@StanTorrent I agree. Comparing anyone with a racist bigot like Enoch Powell is a joke.
SIr Norman actually looks and talks like Sir Humphrey from Yes Minister.
As soon as he started talking about the ‘national interest’ this was all I could think off
Could you imagine this today. The idea of politicians around a table openly discussing issues, my days , never.
Powell operates at a different level altogether.
@Anglo Commando ....Powell was well written up on the classics of public schools........alas.....he was, as we say thick as fuck to the real world and would still be struggling today in the real world........ALL IMMIGRANTS OUT..................what nonsencse.......the country would be fucked......................
@@edwardkent no, if the immigrants had left, the indigenous population would have had more kids
@@franzungricht9851 No western style civilisations indigenous population will ever increase it's birth rate....2 things matey......contraception and abortion and the 3rd one happening now is people worried about their carbon footprint.
@@edwardkent Anyone not obsessed with Greta Thunberg's grimacing face is more worried about Islamic totalitarianism than about carbon footprints.
edward kent He was from the real world and worked with real people you illiterate plonker.
Thank you for this
part 2 please, its amazing despite the title of the clip, Skinner and Powell seem to concur more than clash
Enjoy!
th-cam.com/video/fo2U-68EgMo/w-d-xo.html
21:00 'But Enoch, we've been through your world of supply and demand...'
This statement did not age well.
When even Dennis Skinner has the economic sense to agree with Enoch on this point, one has to start questioning themselves. No wonder Bob's govt didn't last long in parliament after this.
This is brilliant. I wish our representatives were as capable now.
"Hard and miserable winter" - should have been a prophet!!!
Should see it now mate 🤣
How classy and well-mannered the politicians were in those days. Norman StJohn Stevas,Énoch Powell, good old Bob Mellish. Even Dennis Skinner was not the bitter shrivelledold fossil he has now become. We have lost over the years more than we have gained.
Paul Gavin Who can blame Dennis Skinner for becoming as you say "a bitter shrivelled old fossil" in today's parliament when you look at the rabble of MPs he has to contend with. Even at 85 years old he has more wisdom than most of the backbenchers on either side.
Don't forget Tony Benn!
"I have to tell you I find naught for my comfort" made me lol
Nowt for my comfort, if you don't mind...
I watched this on TH-cam in 1978, it was only 36p for broadband then.
Bobby Crush
We only had a black n white telly ..... but our WiFi was brilliant 😂😂😂
Back when debate got your attention and was enjoyable regardless of subject, we led the way
Potent stuff. Thanks for the upload.
Refreshing to see how reasonable debate amongst politicians of different persuasions used to be so civilised compared to the hate, insults and idealogical single mindness of the present political representatives we have today, none of whom would be able to debate with this panel.
soon as enoch comes in they all tense up hahaha god bless him
You dirty crotch watcher
Enoch Powell Rest in Peace
So good to listen to civilised debate among enemies so as to speak.
Please can you upload part 2 of this debate?
No problems at all :-)
th-cam.com/video/fo2U-68EgMo/w-d-xo.html
Please upload part 2
Here you go
th-cam.com/video/fo2U-68EgMo/w-d-xo.html
3:00 Interesting that the term 'winter of discontent' is already around - even though it's only mid-November and the major strikes did not begin until later (the public service strikes were not until the new year).
Shakespeare innit!
I'm not sure how many people would have thought of Richard, Duke of Gloucester's joy at becoming King when thinking of industrial conditions in November 1978. The term was applied by the editor of The Sun, Larry Lamb - clear from this that he had foreseen very clearly what was about to happen.
I thought the same. Bob Mellish was rather prescient in his opening remarks. Sunny Jim never did make it to the following October though.
Just like to say this is very interesting in that period of history
Enoch Powell and Dennis Skinner , two great statesmen
20 mins in Skinner hit the nail on the head, Like now MPs don`t feel any of the pain that the us bottom of the food chain feel
Hi, any chance of posting a 'clean' version of this excellent programme please? many thanks
This scholar was absolutely
Spot on
2023
Middle east in UK
1 million migrates coming this year to UK
I million next year
Speaking on behalf of England
Our national treasure spoken the truth
We need a oplogizes from our zombie government
And he was conservative
Street wise tal.............
Find more of this fascinating archive of the time period
Prefered Dennis skinner/frank field compared to Jeremy Corbyn/Dan carden
Interesting to see Reginald Maudling, he died February 1979.
41 years on and Dennis is still calling out the rich mans bullshit to his face
Dennis skinner - still alive still a legend
a complete wanker ,sponging of the state 'for the last 40 plus years ' there he is mocking mp's and there he has been taking for the same period
The labour party dumped the British working class people to cultivate the ehtnic minorities vote
Christopher Lee played Alan Partridge to a tee in this episode.
Excellent!
Just think how much better this debate would have been today. You KNOW what I mean.
See this tv coverage and how clear the communication is compared with today’s and how one is struggling to follow what is discussed and also the picture flickering with the possibility of bringing on a fit/peti mal to one watching now-a-days productions? Let’s go back to those days of enjoying TVCoverage debate.
Way back when,politicians stood for the people, and not for their own financial interests!
I could listen to Skinner all day long!
I'm sure he'd be happy to oblige.
Wow, this is very apposite to the current political situation
The days before a dark force had true control over the political spectrum. That Thames Television intro still comforts me.
This is how political debate should be. Not an accusation of 'racist', 'sexist', 'homophobe', 'islamaphobe', that dominate so much of modern debate, to be heard.
Never knew benny hill interviewed politicians. Oh and comment number 666
This reminds of the original Star Wars movie bar scene.
That's called the "Cantina scene".
Keep going, dear Mr Skinner
Dennis skinner is phenomenal here.
Dennis was not wrong it is much worse now in the house market.
Enoch Powell has some of the night in him. Dennis is so intelligent and articulate.
I suggest that you take off your dark glasses and let a bit of daytime reflect back on your inability to rocognise Powel's erudtion, oratory and political perspicacity...
Norman St. John Stevas bears a strong resemblance to Alan Partridge.
How times have changed.