In all honesty, the fact he’s been fighting centuries on cybertron and the fact that the humans or decepticons wont learn anything he tells them, it’s a miracle he kept his cool for that long
Yeah dude fights to protect humanity, even died for some time,for some years later to discover that humans are making dealerships and alliances with decepticons to kill autobots, just for minor greeds of power
Optimus soon learned humans could be worse than decepticons, not only keeping Cybertech and cyberhistory on earth to themselves Later we seen humans willingly working with the decepticons, then having Sentinel prime flip from protecting life, to genocide for the sake of cybertron (the pillars) Optimus really got pissed off when he learned humans not only worked with bad cybers, but hunted both sides down to gain resources, so the first human Optimus killed was the one working with the cyber assassin (I forget its name)
Im so glad you pointed out that Optimus really only changed after he died and came back. He was legitimately just sick of getting screwed over because he played by the rules. Imagine you have to protect someone with your life and you know if you fail, if you die, then the ENTIRE WORLD will be destroyed. Then imagine you lose and you know youre about to die, and because you lost, the world will end. But then you come back to life. Youre not going to be the same person that died. Youre gonna play by your own rules. Optimus wasnt about to let himself make the same mistake again.
Agreed. Death itself must be a traumatic experience and he basically died thinking he may have failed everyone/doomed them all Then the last thing he hears is someone saying "you are so weak" And internally he sort of knew it was true in a way. He was given a second chance and with everything that had happened and how he died, it is no real wonder some part of him was "damaged" beyond repair so to speak and he decided he wont risk it ever again
I wouldn't attribute this much thought into this franchise tbh. No I'm not a 'these movies are mindless action setpieces' snob but there is literally no subtext in the movies to showcase your take so it might as well be a really cool headcanon
Bayverse Optimus is a more realistic version with losing his friends his colleagues and his home all because he held back against his enemies in the war and at the forest he realized “oh shit I gotta stop holding back or not just me but everyone will die”
For a Alien Robot veteran of a endless war, it does make sense that he would be tired of the Deceptacons bullshit and would go berserker on them, he’s practically a victim of war at this point of the Bayformers, so him going full on Kratos on them is just a normal day for him
Something cool to note is that Nemesis Prime on the Bayverse, ain't some bad guy like it may appear, but literally someone fighting to save his own dying planet, like Megs and Sentinel, Nemesis is just Prime without his morals, morals that began to change already on AOE, he always cared about his planet, but not by killing another one, that was part of his morals...
Because Quintessa didn't brainwashed him, she just took out Prime's morality, the only thing still keeping his pain and rage for everything he has been through, his sense of morality in DOTM showed its ugliest side when he had his morals above everything else, AOE then showed Prime pushing aside his morality because this time wasn't about doing what a Prime is supposed to do, it's about avoiding seeing the people you care die again and again, it's the fear of not being able to defend his family again...his morality in AOE took the biggest blow yet, but he still went back defending Earth...but by the time Optimus meets Quintessa he's just someone desperate for peace, and will do anything to achive that...Nemesis and Optimus aren't different, because they are the same person, just without the morality of one.
I think they tried to show that visually by making nemesis have purple eyes instead of red. He wasn’t truly evil because his mission had purpose, instead if explicitly doing it to see others suffer
The way I always saw it was that he wasn't so much becoming psychotic as he was reverting to his older ways. The way he's unleashing brutality and almost never getting seriously injured (AFTER the forest fight, of course, and with the exception of losing an arm in DotM) seems to come from a great warrior rather than a madman. He's not chaotic, he's precise, and he flows with a savage sort of grace. He was a warrior before he was a peacekeeper, and now he is in more of an equilibrium between the two; a Peacemaker
Except I don't think he was a warrior before, I know in the other versions he was like a librarian or something, and a peace talker, but I I don't think we heard what he used to be in the movies
Technically if you see in most story timelines, he's actually a librarian back in cybertron, hence the fact he has so much knowledge on so many artifacts from cybertron
Sorry if I misrepresented my point. In normal canon, Optimus was a librarian (or similar, depends on the canon), but he then by necessity became a warrior. After the majority of the fighting and wars on Cybertron, Earth by comparison was less of a battlefield (See the difference between the fighting in the Cybertron scene in Bumblebee vs the fighting in the first Transformers movie). So he was able to become accustomed to returning to his original state as a peaceful being. But then by the time referenced in my original comment, he's reverting to his ways of being a warrior again as he fights very similarly to how he did in Bumblebee. Remember, he wasn't being merciful then, he was just smoking people left and right. (You could see his life path as Librarian>Warrior>Peacekeeper>Warrior) My main point was that he wanted to see Earth as a chance for a new start, a different way of doing things. Hence why he would show mercy to the Decepticons at times and even try to reason with them. However, the shift in his personality that some call psychotic would seem to be just an acceptance that the Decepticons only want war, so he's going to give it to them. TLDR; He was a librarian before a warrior, but he became peacemaker/keeper on Earth, only to return to being a warrior
I always saw bay-verse in a sort of more realistic 'not everyone is going home' type deal, and primes decent into ruthlessness was just bay's way of saying "We all know you'd do it if you were him"
The sad thing is you are right and how long has Optimus been fighting this war now? millennia I’d say and no matter who you are you will break and that is what this is “I’m done holding back I can’t or everyone gets hurt” So he takes off his gloves and puts on his brass knuckles with the precision of a sniper but the ruthlessness of a berserker
@darkfox1861 because that is what Megatron values. He values obedience, ruthlessness, savagery, lack of mercy, cunning, scheming, competence, and most of all, he lives by the principle: "ends justify the means." That kind of leader has 0 room for honorable and principled warriors. Those get killed off by more ruthless decepticons looking to improve their station under Megatron.
the bay film only did ironhide dying because in the 80's movie ironhide and prowl were fan favorites killed off Micheal Bay is just doing more edgy adaptations and its kind of terrible more than half the time optimus himself was killed off in the old movie.. not everyone went home in the original stuff and i dunno how a bay film could be described as realistic seeing as earth is the hiding spot for the plot device in like 3 different movies there is some ancient bullcrap hidden on earth like 3 different times.. micheal bay might make his fights look gritty but the movies overall make the obsolete least sense of any transformers property and i dunno how anyone could call them realistic just for copying character deaths that did indeed happen in the OG cartoons... theses movies are far from original or deep and mostly an exercise in special effects
I think the bay verse visually is more realistic, had hope for the new continuity but the writing in the last movie was somehow worse then the bayverse writing. Also the CGI looked too digital for me.
I’ve always though Optimus’ “descent” was never really a descent, but an acceptance of the reality of his situation. He’s in a war, and him realising that what he’s fighting for is more valuable than his moral code is a really interesting idea that I wish they did a lot more with.
Love these videos going more in depth to stuff like this to give it a more concise story. When in reality Bay just wanted “Big robot kill other big robots”
Well the thing is that Michael Bay didn't write the movies, he just directed, as opposed to many other directors like Christopher Nolan who either write, co-write or at least are involved in the story writing on top of directing. The writers of the first 3 Transformers movies actually wrote a compelling story & characters, so that's why you can get a video like this diving deep into the events of the series.
@@John-Xit would be cool if the transformers trilogy were directed by another one, but at same time, i love those movies, so is kinda "choose your poison" for me
What people forget about the bayverse is that is highlighted the fact that they were in a war. Optimus was a pacifist caught in that war, in the first two films he tries to stick to that but we see him realise that the decepticons will not show mercy. So he becomes a person who fights them on their terms, flawed as it was, for someone who’s been beaten, betrayed, and watched countless friends die for no good reason, the fact that he stayed true to his morals for so long is the most impressive thing.
Agree, and it's miraculous what a great fighter he is, considering he was just a data clerk and had no military rank or combat training when he was Orion Pax!
@@JetStream_Mann it was even highlighted in the TFP series where Optimus eventually becomes the bayverse prime Because he realizes the Megatron he knew is gone.
@@MarvinzWrldnot really that was foolish decision optimus regretted it TFP Megatron didnt kill optimus when he became orion due to memory loss. Even just let him touch decepticon database lol
I think Optimus' slow decent into cyncism and ruthless violence vould make an interesting, even great arc. The issue with the Bayverse is the lack of time they give to Optimus and the other Cybertronians. I think the tragedy behind Optimus having to kill both his "brother" in Megatron and his mentor, Sentinel, would have hit harder if the movies built on their relationship rather than focusing on human shenanigansso much. Even in AOE, Optimus's change in viewpoint of humans gets pushed aside for shit like Cade worrying about his underraged daughter being in an relationship with a grown adult or Chinese propaganda, and by TLK, where the character arc should have reached its climax, he only shares a scene or 2 with Quintessa before turning evil, then disappears for most of the movie and only comes in at the beginning of the third act to first Bee and turn good again after just hearing him speak. The underwritten potential of the story really harms the characters overall, and I don't blame people for thinking these movies are brianless junk food.
@@Staurcomb serious question, is a live-action transformers movie still live-action if there are no humans in it to interact with them (even as background props) or is it just a animated movie even if the backdrops are irl locations?
A lot of it is probably due to the limitations they had to have on screentime for the Transformers due to how expensive rendering and animating them was.
@@Staurcomb to be fair they had to render everything (animals and environments) in the lion king as authentic to the real thing as possible. the cybertron scene in the bumblebee movie (as well as the cliffjumper execution scene) feels rather off imo.
The throughline for Optimus becoming a cynic / merciless "psycho" across all the movies is the fact that Optimus and the Autobots landed in the USA. That's literally it. They landed in the US, learmed everything from an Americentric internet, worked with strictly American soldiers to "save the day" in multiple movies, and went so far as to further American interests overseas on their off time and "go rogue" to help the country play world police as Optimus narrates in the beginning of Revenge of the Fallen and Dark of the Moon. The interspecies relations with the USA making Optimus more amenable to doing war crimes even though he's "supposed to be the good guy" is funny as fuck unless you're a super-de-duper patriot that thinks the USA has never done anything wrong ever because "they're supposed to be the good guys". Every movie after the first one spends its time sorta fellating the military and the US's accomplishments and then shows the audience in the following movie that working with the US meant jack shit for Optimus's morals and the loyalty humans in general have towards the Autobots, and in fact made his morals and the interspecies relations much worse than if they'd never interacted at all. This culminates in Age of Extinction where the US government has no idea that the CIA is blasting Autobots to smithereens, a regular person can't tell the difference between an Autobot and a Decepticon, and Stanley Tucci uses Megatron's head to model a new Transformer and wonders why the result (Galvatron) looks so evil.
I agree about the underwritten potential these movies have. However, I wonder how much of the blame can really fall on the writers and how much is because of budget. A single frame of these robots is no doubt unbelievably expensive, thus can reduce how much the robots can carry the story themselves. Maybe if they cut back on the world ending CG spectacles in every film, they would have enough money to focus on more character driven scenes with the robots where things aren't blowing up.
I’m glad there’s someone who isn’t just calling him a psycho without going into more detail, never understood why he acted the way he did until now and it’s very understandable. I definitely like the idea of the other autobots reacting to his shift in behavior.
Yeah I agree, I was confused at first as I was watching through the movies as to why he became so violent. I now have an amazing explanation right here! Great job on the video dude!
The one problem with wanting other bots to express their surprise and displeasure at prime is that they all die and thats the reason he changes. Prime has seen jazz die presumably, ironhide, and he was especially angry about ratchet. And as for the humans, well they're also pushing prime away so they shouldn't turn right around and ask why he's so sad or mad about it.
The problem with this video is that the fight isn't the first time he went psycho, in fact literally in the first part of the movie he executes a con point blank for no actual reason. He went insane there, and there was nothing that merited this change.
he never gone psycho. He merely learned that if he continued to hold back and continue to allow the enemy to have a chance will result in more deaths and potentially a greater risk of losing. Its a lesson of it's self aswell. Hold back against those who intend to hurt you can and will result in your death aswell as others. Give the foe no chance then you will succeed. Some times being brutal and overly aggressive is the only way to quickly end something that is a risk to everyone's lives
I once watched a theory where the autobots were actually kinda asshats and the deceptions just wanna go home. Firstly the autobots teach humans the way of taking down a transformer(limb from limb practically), while deceptions usually try to go for the spark for the fastest kill. In bayverse Optimus was a crusader shown in AOE and the traps on the ship show how cruel he might have been. Plus the autobots on their own are quite violent and if not given something to fight they’ll try to kill eachother (again drift and bee in AOE). And finally even megatron when he saw cybertron saved he was ready to give up fighting(plus we can’t ignore prime ripping his face off after being saved).
Really makes you wish you didn't need to theorize and that Optimus could have actually slowly become more desperate and jaded and grows aware of it and his experiences as a story arc in the movies. Its kind of like the role of Nemesis Prime in the Netflix show where he is revealed to become a herald of Unicron in some not so distant future that haunts his older self.
He's this same way in the G1 Comics. The entire mission to Earth was a suicide ploy to lure Megatron away from Cybertron to give the Autobots a chance. G1 Optimus intended to die when the Ark went down
This honestly makes the forest fight just that much more of an impactful event in the Bayverse films. In a way, it was the end of the story for the Optimus we knew from the first movie, and the beginning of a new story for the Optimus we know immediate post-revival and onwards.
If only we had good writing to actually make us taste this development of character, instead we have to resort to youtubers fixing the mess they did with this franchise
Bay’s just chilling with an awkward smile thinking to himself “I never thought about the forest fight and Prime’s decent to madness, we just didn’t have any writers so all I could do is action.”
I would still pay a lot for a G-1 OP figure with a voice function that has just one line. "I'll KILL YOU!!"" 😂😂 When he said that to Cade after he brought him out of stasis I absolutely lost it.😂😂 I knew you couldn't save these movies anymore and that Prime, was literally a different character. Of all the things Prime would NEVER say, I'm pretty sure that's #1. Just sayin'. 😂😂
I genuinely NEVER realized, despite seeing ROTF multiple times, that Optimus wasn't actually trying until around 2:30. Definitely one of the weaker ones, but does a great job of showing how much he cares for all life that he would hold back so much.
🌌☄️✨😌Fax's Man😌✨☄️🌌 People Just Don't All the Secrets Abt the Bayverse That Made It Very Mysterious. And Then They Get the Middle Finger Flipped Upon Them For Being An Embarrassing Short End of the Stick Fool. They Fck Talk Abt It But Not Explanation For Little Things they Find In the Movies without Doing Research. And then I Throw My Head Back And Laugh Because Of How Brainless They Are And They Can't Even Find The Answers. It's Like Having To Find Someone's Car Keys And It's Right In Their Faces. Theroymus AKA Trans Theories Is The Goat On Doing Amazing Stuff Like This.
@@orhandalegend) Optimus' swords cut through Cybertronians like butter, so no, Cybertronians are not too durable for him. 2) The problem is not that he simply kills them brutally. It's that it is needlessly brutal and the kills end up being much flashy and aggressive than quick and effective and also that, while delivering those kills, he also throws one-liners like an 80s/90s anti-hero or just screams "DIE!".
Optimus going freako mode on the cons is absolutely based. Killing an enemy as fast as possible completely removes them from the fight and saves your buddies later down the line
Yes but well takes away why Optimus is a Prime in the first place, and that the movies sorely lack. Is that Optimus was given the matrix of leadership(outside of the bay verse) not to just save Cybertron, but to reunite the cybertronians. Even though the decepticons adopted the (kill your enemies as fast as possible) and were ruthlessly brutal, it wasn’t the autobots code because how else could you distinguish anyone anymore if you kill everything that’s against them. Which in the end, doesn’t unite Cybertron, and probably would have sped up the destruction of Cybertron if Optimus started using Omega Supreme and Fortress Maximus to blow out every city the Decepticons were in.
@Dan Pham doesn't matter he's protecting his people and a whole ass planet of people he shouldn't need to lmao " take away why he's a prime" lmao so take away honor loyalty respect dedication everything that made most primes right😂😂😂😂
@Dan Pham and yes he became brutal but not psychotic dumbass kids need to relearn real definitions of words rather than trying to give words new meaning he simply had to change auto code because he became fully aware deceptions don't give 2 fucks or shiits about automotive human or deception life so just like any fucking soldier would do he puts the righteous motto away and does what needs to be done to insure safety a psycho is someone who has truly lost their damn mind and and either has murderous urges or urges to torture victims amonst others optimus never kills without good reason therefore not phsyco he's fully aware of what he has to do
@@smiaza1357 "his people" should include all cybertronians, that's just fact. Most primes did not have honor/loyalty/otherbullshit idolatry. There were other primes since the original 13, but they did not have the blessings of the matrix of leadership, also that some were the ones who built the bullshit autocracy in Cybertron that led up to the fuel for dissatisfaction/oppression of the working class, (I.E. Nominus Prime from IDW) You have some mistaken idea that all "primes" have these characterizations, as if they are perfect. Transformers 3 almost tried to explore corrupt primes, so I'll cheer only once for them because of that.
I always believed he was well justified in no longer pulling his punches. Dude not only paid the ultimate price himself. But he made sure his troops held themselves back and he lost so many friends due to that. He was sick of it and him dying was just the final straw. Especially I feel after he was resurrected and he saw that things only got worst
This just lines up with one of the few Headcanons I have for Optimus, something ROTB kind of echoed: Prime holds back because he knows how much more dangerous he could be if he didn’t. This is what happens if you push him too far. Remember, in RotF, Optimus had been trying to defend a new planet for years now, and one of his allies, someone he considered a friend was under threat from someone he thought was gone, and it hit him that he needed to stop pulling his punches or billions would die. He said “You’ll never stop at one!” And he was right. They turned around the very next movie, slaughtered Chicago, and tried to kill all humans for Cybertron. And in ROTB, Skirge had up to that point killed hundreds of Cybertronians, many of which may have been Primes friends, and had directly killed Bumblebee at this point, and at his wits end, he knew he couldn’t let Skirge live and made sure he couldn’t come back. Everyone seems to write these events off as just weird outliers, but it’s probably some of the most insanely powerful portrayals because this is what happens if you push a pacifist too far.
Great video, loved the idea you explored! Also, a line that always resonated with me was: “who would you be without me, Prime?” Something that, coming from Megatron, makes me think that he is aware of the fact that Optimus became as violent and capable as he is in response to the abuse and brutality of the Decepticons. Even as a kid I just accepted the idea of him being done with everything
Exactly. I understand people being upset with that scene. But they need to remember this isn't IDW Megatron. A flawed person driven to violence by an oppressive government. No, he's just Robo Hitler. He may have helped you defeat a mutual enemy, but you still need to kill him.
@@zuttoaragi8349 Yeah. As a kid I just thought to myself: “Well, it makes sense, he could betray Optimus”. I know that the original plan was for them to make a truce though, it would have been interesting
i think youre spot on about optimus going full on berserk after getting reassembled at the pyramid, but i think when he took jetfires parts he also took on some of his personality, jetfires regret of never doing anything worthwhile and the decepticons general commitment to results over principles paired with his own experience could make for one hell of a motivation to violence
having your nemesis come back, kill you, and resurrecting at the last possible moment to still make a difference would make anyone violent, i think. especially a weary veteran. so i think the criticism of his brutality, while understandable, are mostly because his change in character isn't really shown well, or ever adressed in the movies - because otherwise it's one of the most interesting directions to take Optimus
There's was a line in the Justice League movie where somebody mentions that you lose apart of yourself when you die, you don't get brought back with everything you once had. I think when Optimus died and was revived, he lost his mercy. Just like when Megatron died and came back, he lost his brutality that made him absolutely feared, he plays second fiddle to Sentinel and isn't nearly as menacing.
Optimus Prime reminds me of Captain Price from the CoD games. If you stick from day one and always watch him till Soap's death, they're very similar. Tried to play by morals and tried to please both parties, but in the end, he went absolute demon for the greater good. From "We get dirty and the world stays clean" to "At the end of the day, someone has to make the enemy be scared of the dark".
I think Optimus realized that restraint is often a crippling weakness when you are facing physcopaths. To defeat then, you have to beat them at their own game. I honestly don’t think that’s far off: the guys over seas that get their hands dirty to keep us safe, come home to their families and try to live a normal life. But the memory of battle scars then for life and there’s no going back, it’s a heavy price.
I like to think of Prime in RotF as equivalent to Batman if he realised that his code isn't getting him anywhere. Basically like Batfleck or any of the Batmen that kill. They're still good heroes, just not going easy anymore and not being hesitant to PUNISH. Case in point- Prime's famous "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" was used ONCE in TF1 and never again. Like all Batmen after the death of a Robin, Prime realised in this RotF battle that freedom is definitely NOT the right of ALL sentient beings, and sometimes you just *have* to kill a deserving few to save the rest.
@@kp1x oh no, I'm pretty sure anybody that actually properly understand Batfleck knows that he isn't a ruthless murderer. He's not the comics flashpoint Thomas Wayne Batman. His goal wasn't, unlike many anti-heroes, to murder criminals. It was just to enforce law and stop crime by any means necessary after robin's death. Basically, he wanted to kill Joker and was ready to do anything to do so, but supes made him realise the need to go back to his values. Batfleck is still batman. He's probably the most comic accurate representation we'll ever get, interns of character, lethality and design, just going through a rough spell due to robin's death. Shame that that's gone.
@@kp1x thanks, bruv. Yeah people look at movies superficially and don't even try to understand, and most aren't even that hard to understand. Glad to meet you, Patel Bhai! The feeling is mutual!
The point of One Bad Day and the death of Robin was to show that Batman wasn’t like The Joker. That even when he was subjected to horrible mental anguish would not stoop to his level and start murdering people. That his willpower and commitment to his code is too strong for that. It’s why Under the Red Hood is such a good story. When that Robin comes back as the Red Hood he’s angry at Batman for not having killed Joker for what he did. Snyder’s Batman is an anomaly in this regard. A mentally weak version of the character who allowed his enemies to break him. The fact that the Joker is still alive in his world makes no sense at all considering that Batfleck has showed no problem killing nameless goons. He’s a bad Batman and not representative of the character as he should be.
@@DovahFett there have been countless good versions of batman that have killed and/or have suffered this anomaly. The canon batman isn't the only batman in the multiverse, and almost every batman that has gone rogue has been appreciated. BvS is no different. It follows the same formula as every non-canon bat - robin gets murdered, batman succumbs to the grief, loses his willpower, starts murdering criminals, and this is worsened by Gotham being Gotham and never supporting him. Same old formula that has worked for over 50 years. Only reason BvS wasn't liked was because people were EXPECTING canon bat but BvS was more wild. Now BvS can't be blamed for the audiences' fictional expectations. We all knew what we were getting into. Despite that the movie was reasonably colic accurate in terms of the fights and amalgamation of various storylines. The batman that we got in JL Snyder was probably the most comic accurate version we've ever gotten or will ever get. It got shot down all because people couldn't handle batman killing on big screen when they've happily accepted it in comics and in animated. Which is shameful of the fanbase of what is probably the oldest and most diverse comic superhero ever.
i always love bayverse. it reaaaaly show us “what can war do a person?” He is a million year old civil warrior. He lost a lot of close friend, died, betrayed and it pushed his to limits. Optimus in the first movie was very close to his g1 version but in the time he was done with everyone’s shit and it made him more pragmatic and coldblooded. I love bayverse’s character arcs maybe not for all characters but optimus and sam really had a great development.
@@Theboredgod Oh yes his screams in t3 were quite impressive. Remember when he wanted to get in the nest facility and the guards stopped him at the door; so he screamed for Bumblebee instead of screaming for Optimus? That was something else.
I think he is just the most realistic version of a Prime. Like, being in a war for centuries would not only harden up everyone, but also burn out seeing something cruel but neccecary as cruel. It becomes just neccecary, because of how common it became for all of Cybertronians during the war. He is still our good old Optimus Prime, wise and good hearted, who would accept decepticon's surrender and gets sad from having no cjoice instead of killing the enemies I bet, and his good presonality is the exact reason of his brutality - he is ready to give his morality and moral suffering for the victory and survival of people he protects. Because he knows fighting "normally" wouldn't be enough
In the first movie, he killed Bonecrusher as fast as possible. Sure he punched his eye out but that's way more tame than what he did to Shockwave's eye. He didn't even want to kill Megatron but rather himself alongside the All-spark. In the second movie, before his death, he also tried to deal with Demolisher as swiftly as possible and even asked him to pull over. After his death, we see him take out his first fatility on The Fallen, someone who shouldn't have been left alive anyways. Had he killed Megatron in the forest, he would've never had left the planet in danger with his absence. In the third movie, he's done with the Decepticons' shit, even saying that he'll kill them all. I think Optimus' brutality is a little unnecessary but I think him killing is reasonable enough. This isn't g1 where the Decepticons were just Copy 'n' Pasted schmucks who only got serious in the Movie, these are full on terrorists who needed to be stopped at all costs.
Thank you for spelling out! While not the most 'faithful' iteration of the character, this Optimus has always felt the most real to me. The progression down his path of increasing violence never felt extreme to me, because movie after movie you see him take losses. You see him constantly being undermined and his words ignored, and the resulting deaths are pinned on him, on his Autobots, for existing, like it's their fault the Decepticons are on Earth. I just feel so sad for him. I never really thought about how traumatic it would have been for him in the forest battle to just...die like that. Got me right where it hurts. As a side note: nice choice of song for the background! That one has always hit me right in the feels and it's a very fitting backing track for this topic.
Yeah from my understanding he came to the understanding that the decepeticons will not stop with one, one human life, one planet, one solar system, one galaxy. Optimus is still good shown by him siding with humanity and him believing in everyones freedom is a right in AOE
Part of what made Optimus Prime a great character and leader was that he didn’t succumb to those impulses and maintained his morality. I know today’s audiences have been conditioned to detest idealized heroes, but maybe that’s part of why the world is so screwed up.
Another thing ive always seen is everyone praises TFP Optimus as the second best iteration of prime since the original series. However nobodys acknowledged that Optimus's character is reflected in that series the same way as he was in these movies. Both had a turning point where they were ready to do what was necessary for the greater good of humanity. For instance in TFP when Megatron defeats the insecticon that Arachnid sent against him Megatrons weak and in no condition to fight. He literally could've been taken prisoner by thr autobots and that would've been another way of ending the war. But instead Optimus was straight up about to execute Megatron, something that everyone complains about him doing to sentinel who arguably did even worse than Megatron, but was stopped from executing Megatron because of Dreadwing. And yet I've never seen anybody complain about it because he was stopped.
Exactly I think everyone especially g1 fans thinks optimus has to be this super predictable stone of a character that never changes/shifts in any way, tfp and movie optimus pre age of extinction/last knight are my favorite versions of the character because their character changes and involve throughout their respective series
People tend to ignore how influential hugely the movies actually where for the franchise also the people that say TFP Optimus was the best since G1 really need to start reading comics its embarrassing
I believe that is the same TFP episode where Optimus reprimands Arcee for how she acted when she found out that Bulkhead and Ratchet had helped Starscream, I believe he said something along the lines of not condoning the termination of any defenseless individual or something like that, what right does he have to say anything when he turns right around and attempts to do the same thing. Its like Arcee does not have a right to feel that way, but he does, I really do not like that version of Optimus because of little things like that.
That's a great point and I totally respect your opinion but if I may I always thought the turning point in TFP was great because if you look at I think a few episodes before the season 1 finale Megatron hits Bumblebee with some sort of dark energon weapon but Raph was with Bumblebee at the time so when Bumblebee got hit so did Raph so when Bumblebee returned to the base looking for help for Raphs pretty bad condition I always thought that was moment that clicked to Optimus like if this is what Megatron is willing to do to a human kid what will he do to the rest of the people of earth and all of the people I care about I gotta put him down before something horrible happens. Idk that was always my thinking on things
As an amateur writer, it's very telling to me that no other character reacts meaningfully to Prime's increasing savagery: it wasn't done in service of his character development, it was done by Michael Bay to make cooler and cooler action scenes. Maybe the writers wanted to have this character arc for Prime but it clearly wasn't anything Bay was interested in, if it is the case
Honestly when you put it like this it makes a lot of sense. Doesn't make the movies better but it does add some much needed context for why OP acts the way he does after the third film. This kinda makes me glad we still have all other continuity OP's who thank God don't end up like this because if they did, then they'd truly become a Nemesis Prime
Makes you think, behind the scenes there was a semblance of good writing in spots, but the direction of Michael Bay obviously pulls it in one way or another.
Tbh, I can't even blame him. He came to Earth with such high hopes and respect for humanity, only for it to constantly be thrown back at him to the point he himself died, and then came back and then had to watch more people he cared about die because of the same species he had so much respect for. In the end, he's still fighting for Autobots and Humanity. He just isn't deluded with the idea that all of humanity deserves his help.
For not being a writer you sure have put in a lot of valid thought into these characters that i dont think the director him self even realized. If you do wanna write i think you should try and see where it goes
I agree, but I would like to add that it's easier to find faults and repair them in something premade than it is to create something new and ensure it works right out the door.
Honestly, I've got no beaf with this version of Optimus. Bayverse Prime is a protector. Everything he does, for good or ill, is driven by his desire to safeguard that which he cares for. He doesn’t desire death or destruction, and we see him actively avoiding it wherever possible, especially earlier on in the timeline. The Autobots' enemies in this continuity are essentially irredeemable. Whatever they were before, they're too far gone now to ever recover. They _won't_ stop at one. They won't stop _ever._ At a certain point (and I do think his revival is as good a peg as any) Prime realises the half measures won't work anymore. His enemies can't be reasoned with, satiated, or redeemed, and any mercy he gives them will only be forged into a sword pointed at his back. Even then, look how he responded to the KSI labs situation. Despite his rage, he went in, saved his people, and limited harm solely to equipment and machinery. That's remarkable forbearance (which he was once again punished for, might I add). I don’t think Optimus ever went "psycho." I don’t even think that he took Megatron's word or philosophy to heart. I think he just came to realize the truth of his situation and accepted it. Optimus fought monsters, and wooden swords wouldn't do.
This has grounds in real psychology. A good person engaging and continuous violence + losing loved ones from the choice of holding back + being the best fighter = lack of mercy.
I like the idea that he got more weapons because he barely survived a 1v3 in the Forest battle and after combining with Jetfire he wanted to replicate that with his Jetpack system. But after that failed he went for a more armoured approach with a sword and shield/Gun combo and he made it so he could lift off without wings since that got him tangled before. U can see progress in his weapons and i liked that about the Bay films
I just want to say: I love how this isn't just a hate fest of the Bayverse disguised as "It's just an opinion" or "I'm just explaining it." This seems like it comes from a place of love, which I greatly respect. Since something a lot of people don't really get is that this is not your average prime in your average TF universe. This is a world where shit hits the fan, and hits it hard. While I understand the flaws of the Bayverse, it is my most loved TF universe out there. Even as a guilty pleasure.
I heard it mentioned best where the first movie was meant to be "a disaster movie with giant robots". The Bayverse Decepticons are less a ragtag group of misfits that started for something good and went crazy, and just a bunch of psychopaths that love killing, destroying, and bullying. So fighting them as if they're moral equals that can be reasoned with is only going to get you killed.
I think the idea of an Optimus that's more bitter and brutal towards his enemies has real potential for an interesting story. Peter Cullen admitted he didn't like how they treated Optimus in the movies, but I feel like even he would like the idea if they truly dedicated time to making it work. And it seems like that's what Rise of the Beasts is doing, what with how he reacts to Noah, and his line of "I am Optimus Prime, leader of the Autobots-...what is left of them." Here's to hoping we get a better written Optimus in the future films.
His way of killing Scourge really makes me think they might start down that route. I mean, a Prime no longer holding back, one pushes too far, is an insane idea, and having another “evil Optimus” story line would be cool, especially if they introduce Hot Rod before that to have a Rodimus hint.
Really shines some light on why he was so done with Megatron in DOTM and didn't hesitate to tear off his head, especially after losing Ironhide to Sentinel's betrayal. He was tired of constantly losing by playing by the rules.
I mean this was Optimus in the comics as well, he always turned the other cheek until he was pushed, and then he went into FAFO mode. Prime has always been the epitome of pushing the quiet/nice person too far, there's only so much you can take before you snap.
One thing I will always love about bayverse Optimus is the fact that dispute his anger and rage he still knows when to restrain himself and will not under any circumstances go against his morals unless he his forced or is tricked into doing so also just seeing him go on the warpath against numerous cons all at once is epic
I think the comic rising storm is where it all changed, it was a hard hitter for sure. Shockwave destroyed elita in front of Optimus and destroyed pretty much all of nest hq which had human allies, Cybertronian refugees and a full squad of autobots just to send a message to prime. It was one dark comic.
This is the best breakdown/explanation for the escalation of brutality Optimus displayed throughout the bayformer movies. Makes so much sense. Well done.
While I get people may not like how this “isn’t how Optimus’s true character is”…. I think that bayverse primes arc makes pretty perfect sense. You did a great job illustrating that in brief
Something that has to do wit this idea is that in the tie in comics it's shown through Elita, Arcee, etc that Optimus has become noticeably more viscous and merciless in his killing and how Elita especially despises that change (since they were extremely close b4 the war), and then the Arcee, Elita, and Chromia are killed by Shockwave which explains how angry Optimus is when he first sees him and when he fights him for the last time in DOTM
Ironically, Batman's arguably more crazy because he hasn't stopped villains like the killer clown for good. He doesn't even have to kill them. Just borrow Superman's Phantom Zone projector for a while!
@John Morgan Batman doesn't do it because he knows it's not his job to be an executioner, it's the LAW's job You should be blaming the legal system that hasn't given Joker the death penalty a hundred times over
I think he got tired of fighting the decepticons, and then the Fallen (who was supposed to be a noble prime like him), and then seeing humanity betray him and become an enemy just like the decepticons. The Bayverse really had a lot of potential and if there were way better writers (and if the bots were way cheaper to animate) I think we could have gotten some good storytelling. Looking back at the old AOE trailers, it really seemed like it would have a good story arc "How many more of my kind must be sacrificed"
What an awesome analysis, I always assumed he was just being driven to madness by the neverending war, megatron returning, humans betraying him and etc that made him go terminator mode, but I never thought to pinpoint it to one specific scene. I guess realizing his "weakness" as megatron put it while he died was enough for him to realize he had to make a change, just like you said, he was ruthless and merciless to every enemy from that point forth. Probably no coincidence that immediately after being revived comes whats arguably his most gruesome and fucked up moment; "Give me your FACE!" *proceeds to tear his face off then rip his "heart" out, crushing it infront of his eyes*
I agree - when I first saw it, I was shocked that Prime would do such a thing to the Fallen, it felt OOC at the time, but I now see it in a different light. He doesn't want to act 'weak' anymore, he wants to show his enemies that he means business
This poor Optimus incarnation has been through so much. I’m honestly surprised he didn’t go even more psycho than he did. The bot died for gods sake. To me he is one of the more realistic depictions of the character, his decline through out the franchise is shockingly real. I wouldn’t call him a psycho, more damaged due to the extreme experiences that has happened in such a short time relative to his own age.
For everyone asking about the song used in the video; It's a remixed version of artist Ursine Vulpine's Single: Do you realize. The remix, done by Pusher, was created for use in the very first teaser trailer for Transformers: The Last Knight.
My original draft got deleted. But I think y’all don’t seem to understand that Optimus is a warrior fighting a war. And his opponents are pretty much merciless sadistic, bloodthirsty super weapons with legs. The only part that shows Optimus has a screw loose or two is telling the fallen to give him his face. But then again, he was just resurrected and was probably pissed in ways you can’t imagine. This quote from patton sums things up pretty well. “War is a bloody, killing business. You've got to spill their blood, or they will spill yours. Rip them up the belly. Shoot them in the guts.”
I remember I started seeing videos of how some fans where disappointed in how Optimus changed from being a noble heroes to a merciless warrior. But you have to understand the main them in the Bayverse is WAR changes anyone. But remember how he came back to the light in major moments when needed like with Kade Jaeger and against Quintesa.
I really love this point of view, of course being close to death can change someone, but dying and getting a second chance? No way that chance it's going to be wasted
I like how people forget Optimus has been a warrior, not a mindless a killing machine for centuries, I like this analysis quite a lot, shows us Optimus was never a psychopath, and the movies shows us how he goes back to what I like to think he used to be back in cybertron and the WAR he and his literal family fought.
Listen. Pet Cemetery theory. Optimus was revived but came back wrong; something inside home shifted. Everyone who is revived by the Matrix of Leadership is twisted in some way, but we only didn’t see it in sentinel cause he was already messed up
I've seen a lot of comments about this, and I agree with most of them. People do forget that Optimus and his Autobot friends/comrades have been fighting a war that was 3 or 8 MILLION years ago and was still happening from the 1st to 3rd movie, and witnessed countless of his friends die, has been betrayed by both his close friend Megatron, then betrayed by his very own mentor Sentinel Prime, and then lastly the HUMANS the very people he swore to protect betrayed him and his tortured his friends. Optimus in every one of those scenarios were by all means justified for what he did, plus in war it's either Killed or be Killed and including Survival of the Fittest you just can't expect anyone to keep their morals if they were the ones that have been fighting millennia years of war.
Honestly, id kill for a bayverse show that adapts the IDW comics. Edit them to have stuff like the stuff you mentioned at the end and boom, you redeem the micheal bay movies instantly. I just dont know why they havent done this, as the bayverse made them billions i could totally see the show booming on some streaming service
if they adapt Meg's arc from IDW, it'll serve as a pretty good foil to Bayverse Optimus I feel like. Megatron grew tired of all the fighting as time went on and he observed his own failures pile up, eventually choosing to just outright stop fighting. meanwhile Optimus grew frustrated at his failures, and became angrier and more ruthless to his enemies
@@notverypog They can, can you imagine NOT having to pay for stars to show their face ? That would take a huge chunk of the budget on making the movie. Plus a TF movie with no Humans would be absolute gold for Paramount.
What people forget about Bayverse Optimus Is that he was never a clerk or a librarian He was a Knight of Iacon He was created by Quintessa for the sole purpose of fighting and destroying Cybertrons' enemies
I personally think it makes total sense that he’s gotten more violent especially after he died. Coming back from that would probably make you think about your life and your future
I find it admirable (In the positive sense mind you) that you were able to make actual sense of when and why Optimus decided to Shoot first and Ask questions... later to never. Good work man
i actually agree with how bay depicted optimus's character especially after 3 and 4 cause really and truly optimus has lost so much from the same humans he was trying to protect. One of his own best freinds ratchet died because the humans made a deal with another transformer which is nuts. And it totally makes sense
This worlds prime gave up his calmer “be strong enough to be gentle” and more merciful ways this Optimus Prime still has the gentle caring Spark of all the other Optimus primes but it’s hidden away in Rage , fear , and distrust.
I wouldn't consider Optimus a psycho but I would put it into a perspective of a soldier that is hardened by war. Due understand that the autobots and deceptions are at war so given the carnage that Prime has seen, even his own death and resurrection. Prime has decided to be less diplomatic and mire about action.
Except that when offered the chance to end the war, to put down their arms and work as one people. He decides to just kill Megatron and keep fighting the Decepticons. At this point Optimus is basically saying that he has to kill every single decepticon out there for the war to be over for him. And probably not even then.
The fact that not only is there an actual reason for him becoming more violent in these movies but also someone finally went into an analysis of it without insensitivity mocking the movies just proves these movies have a bit more credit that they deserves and that people like you need to exist more in the film industry, that you actually use your brain, logic and common sense to analyse a flawed movie that is hated.
For whatever reason I love to see great characters descend into madness to the point where they truly have nothing left to lose and they are willing to do anything to get what they want.
alright let me paint a picture for you. A man fights in a civil war that consumes his entire planet, his sworn brother in arms turns against him and he ends up losing the fight for survival there. He flees to the stars in hopes of one day finding a new place to call home, never knowing if he ever will, or how many others of his species survived. One day he finds a habitable planet and decides to travel there, rallying as many of his kin as he’s come across since then to that place, unbeknownst to him that those who opposed him in the war had already beaten him there. He arrives with the few he had found and over the course of several years, almost all of them get hunted down and killed by both others of his species and the creatures that had inhabited the planet before them. During a particularly brutal fight, he himself gets killed seemingly alongside the hope for the good side of his race. Eventually an answer is found and he is given a second chance at life. I dont necessarily know about you, but if i had died and was seemingly given a second chance at life, i wouldnt be wasting it trying to play the role of Mister Nice Guy, no matter how mentally or emotionally fortified i was
Interesting take. I wouldn’t call Prime a psycho though. He’s defending those that he holds dear to him. Being violent towards those that would be violent towards that which you cherish isn’t bad at all. Violence is a tool and should be in everyone’s tool belt. I really appreciated the lengths he would go to protect his friends and humanity and Bay portrayed it very well 👏🏼
He needs to change name then Thats not really optimus Thats more nova prime who came before optimus but went missing. My side above all species/violent against all but friends
@@xxEvangelineRxxROTB is part of the reboot to the franchise so it makes sense he isn’t completely unhinged yet and by the end is when he appreciated humanity more so I’m sure in the future if they stay true to his character then he’ll become murderous again
Another great detail that prime has a type of PTSD about his dying moment his biggest failure is in age of extinction as Cade is reviving him the first thing he says waking up was "SAM... RUN" (in a pained desperate voice) the same words he said when he died in the woods he's constantly remembering that moment the moment he failed and saw his weakness in the eyes of a scared Sam and so now he takes no chances! Some people say he says Sam run because Sam was at the ambush when lockdown attacked Sam never went on away missions and definitely after dark of the moon I doubt Sam would choose missions over his girl after almost losing her for that exact reason she said it herself "he'd rather feel important than be normal with her" am sure after dark of the moon he decided to focus more on his normal life.
"I ain't no writer" but had proceeded over the last 6 and a half minutes to create some of the best most compelling content I've honestly seen in years dude. I gave up on rhe transformers movies I was almost in tears Watching this video so much I never saw happening right in front of my eyes and the perfect music to go along with the narration over the actions sequences. Epic video so glad I came across this and the channel. Definitely going to marathon all those movies this week
I picked up on this too! I started a fan script for a movie after Last Knight and it's a big plot point for Optimus to realize the war has changed him and he can no longer be the best leader in a time of peace, after he kills Runamuck, who surrenders and begs for his life. In comparison, Bumblebee doesn't kill Barricade after the other deceptions surrender, leading Optimus to give leadership and Prime status to Bee.
honestly, im glad they put in the effort to make his being more brutal (and thus making cooler fights) be a visible thing with a clear start. the fight scenes in these movies are consistently fantastic, and they went the extra mile to make it fit in the series.
I realize these films are so war focused not only because of the time period they came out, but because they make the autobots significantly more human in behaviour, meaning that their war is substantially more emotional.
I was gonna go off on a tangent about the psychological effects of the Forrest fight for prime but you started talking about it as soon as I started heading to the comments on my phone (watching on xbox) but all the points you made and how in depth you went were really thought provoking and interesting to consider it helped even me see some new viewpoints and reference ideas. Loved the somber tone, the way you delivered your thoughts and point of view alone was worth sub. Eager to see future content. Subbed.
How do people think a small fraction of autobots survived in this endless war, being absolutely outnumbered by decepticons by hundreds, who also had air superiority. He could never afford to have mercy.
![[TH] 2024 PMGC League | Survival Stage วันที่ 1 | PUBG MOBILE Global Championship](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/FVFT-PFwU80/mqdefault.jpg)
In all honesty, the fact he’s been fighting centuries on cybertron and the fact that the humans or decepticons wont learn anything he tells them, it’s a miracle he kept his cool for that long
Yeah dude fights to protect humanity, even died for some time,for some years later to discover that humans are making dealerships and alliances with decepticons to kill autobots, just for minor greeds of power
You not wrong about that at all. The fact they survived that long is a testament to his leadership. Scientists vs soldiers.
And that the humans never learned, it was the humans obstinacy that broke him
@yerbasanta505 The Optimus in the new movie isn't the same one as the Bayverse though. New continuity entirely.
Not just centuries, but in lore I think the Cybertronian civil war had been going on for almost 3 MILLION years.
The moment Megs said “is the survival of our race not worth a single human life” was the moment Optimus was done putting up with the decepticons
Optimus soon learned humans could be worse than decepticons, not only keeping Cybertech and cyberhistory on earth to themselves
Later we seen humans willingly working with the decepticons, then having Sentinel prime flip from protecting life, to genocide for the sake of cybertron (the pillars)
Optimus really got pissed off when he learned humans not only worked with bad cybers, but hunted both sides down to gain resources, so the first human Optimus killed was the one working with the cyber assassin (I forget its name)
@@Bustuhh Lockdown
@@Bustuhh Harold Attinger was his name afaik
blud didnt let it slide
“You’ll never stop at one…”
*Energon blades come out of his wrist*
“…I’LL TAKE YOU ALL ON!”
Im so glad you pointed out that Optimus really only changed after he died and came back. He was legitimately just sick of getting screwed over because he played by the rules. Imagine you have to protect someone with your life and you know if you fail, if you die, then the ENTIRE WORLD will be destroyed. Then imagine you lose and you know youre about to die, and because you lost, the world will end. But then you come back to life. Youre not going to be the same person that died. Youre gonna play by your own rules. Optimus wasnt about to let himself make the same mistake again.
Agreed. Death itself must be a traumatic experience and he basically died thinking he may have failed everyone/doomed them all
Then the last thing he hears is someone saying "you are so weak"
And internally he sort of knew it was true in a way.
He was given a second chance and with everything that had happened and how he died, it is no real wonder some part of him was "damaged" beyond repair so to speak and he decided he wont risk it ever again
@@Destroyer120296
And why I could take the ending of DoTM. If it was the peace ending then makes sense as well but still a huge gamble.
I wouldn't attribute this much thought into this franchise tbh. No I'm not a 'these movies are mindless action setpieces' snob but there is literally no subtext in the movies to showcase your take so it might as well be a really cool headcanon
Well the jet from revenge of the fallen did say before he ripped his spark out “itll give him a new power or life he’s never felt before”
What you’re describing is an extension of the problem that every single autobot except Optimus and Bee are fucking useless charisma voids
Bayverse Optimus is a more realistic version with losing his friends his colleagues and his home all because he held back against his enemies in the war and at the forest he realized “oh shit I gotta stop holding back or not just me but everyone will die”
For a Alien Robot veteran of a endless war, it does make sense that he would be tired of the Deceptacons bullshit and would go berserker on them, he’s practically a victim of war at this point of the Bayformers, so him going full on Kratos on them is just a normal day for him
Something cool to note is that Nemesis Prime on the Bayverse, ain't some bad guy like it may appear, but literally someone fighting to save his own dying planet, like Megs and Sentinel, Nemesis is just Prime without his morals, morals that began to change already on AOE, he always cared about his planet, but not by killing another one, that was part of his morals...
Great thought. I really wished Nemesis Prime was shown more, but the scenes he was in were cool.
Tbh, there isn’t that much of a difference before and after. But nemesis prime is just apathetic on all levels
Because Quintessa didn't brainwashed him, she just took out Prime's morality, the only thing still keeping his pain and rage for everything he has been through, his sense of morality in DOTM showed its ugliest side when he had his morals above everything else, AOE then showed Prime pushing aside his morality because this time wasn't about doing what a Prime is supposed to do, it's about avoiding seeing the people you care die again and again, it's the fear of not being able to defend his family again...his morality in AOE took the biggest blow yet, but he still went back defending Earth...but by the time Optimus meets Quintessa he's just someone desperate for peace, and will do anything to achive that...Nemesis and Optimus aren't different, because they are the same person, just without the morality of one.
@@Super-7327 correct me if im wrong but isnt that pretty much what the original comment said?
I think they tried to show that visually by making nemesis have purple eyes instead of red. He wasn’t truly evil because his mission had purpose, instead if explicitly doing it to see others suffer
The way I always saw it was that he wasn't so much becoming psychotic as he was reverting to his older ways. The way he's unleashing brutality and almost never getting seriously injured (AFTER the forest fight, of course, and with the exception of losing an arm in DotM) seems to come from a great warrior rather than a madman. He's not chaotic, he's precise, and he flows with a savage sort of grace. He was a warrior before he was a peacekeeper, and now he is in more of an equilibrium between the two; a Peacemaker
i *AM* the peace
Except I don't think he was a warrior before, I know in the other versions he was like a librarian or something, and a peace talker, but I I don't think we heard what he used to be in the movies
Technically if you see in most story timelines, he's actually a librarian back in cybertron, hence the fact he has so much knowledge on so many artifacts from cybertron
Sorry if I misrepresented my point. In normal canon, Optimus was a librarian (or similar, depends on the canon), but he then by necessity became a warrior. After the majority of the fighting and wars on Cybertron, Earth by comparison was less of a battlefield (See the difference between the fighting in the Cybertron scene in Bumblebee vs the fighting in the first Transformers movie). So he was able to become accustomed to returning to his original state as a peaceful being. But then by the time referenced in my original comment, he's reverting to his ways of being a warrior again as he fights very similarly to how he did in Bumblebee. Remember, he wasn't being merciful then, he was just smoking people left and right. (You could see his life path as Librarian>Warrior>Peacekeeper>Warrior)
My main point was that he wanted to see Earth as a chance for a new start, a different way of doing things. Hence why he would show mercy to the Decepticons at times and even try to reason with them. However, the shift in his personality that some call psychotic would seem to be just an acceptance that the Decepticons only want war, so he's going to give it to them.
TLDR; He was a librarian before a warrior, but he became peacemaker/keeper on Earth, only to return to being a warrior
Spot on
I always saw bay-verse in a sort of more realistic 'not everyone is going home' type deal, and primes decent into ruthlessness was just bay's way of saying "We all know you'd do it if you were him"
I mean these guys aren’t the con we were used to growing up most of them were pure psychopaths
The sad thing is you are right and how long has Optimus been fighting this war now?
millennia I’d say and no matter who you are you will break and that is what this is
“I’m done holding back I can’t or everyone gets hurt”
So he takes off his gloves and puts on his brass knuckles with the precision of a sniper but the ruthlessness of a berserker
@darkfox1861 because that is what Megatron values. He values obedience, ruthlessness, savagery, lack of mercy, cunning, scheming, competence, and most of all, he lives by the principle: "ends justify the means." That kind of leader has 0 room for honorable and principled warriors. Those get killed off by more ruthless decepticons looking to improve their station under Megatron.
the bay film only did ironhide dying because in the 80's movie ironhide and prowl were fan favorites killed off
Micheal Bay is just doing more edgy adaptations and its kind of terrible more than half the time
optimus himself was killed off in the old movie.. not everyone went home in the original stuff and i dunno how a bay film could be described as realistic seeing as earth is the hiding spot for the plot device in like 3 different movies there is some ancient bullcrap hidden on earth like 3 different times.. micheal bay might make his fights look gritty but the movies overall make the obsolete least sense of any transformers property and i dunno how anyone could call them realistic just for copying character deaths that did indeed happen in the OG cartoons... theses movies are far from original or deep and mostly an exercise in special effects
I think the bay verse visually is more realistic, had hope for the new continuity but the writing in the last movie was somehow worse then the bayverse writing. Also the CGI looked too digital for me.
I’ve always though Optimus’ “descent” was never really a descent, but an acceptance of the reality of his situation. He’s in a war, and him realising that what he’s fighting for is more valuable than his moral code is a really interesting idea that I wish they did a lot more with.
Love these videos going more in depth to stuff like this to give it a more concise story. When in reality Bay just wanted “Big robot kill other big robots”
Lmao my thoughts exactly. "Would be cool if ____" can explain the writing in most Bay movies.
Goes to show how subjective art is. You can find meaning in everything, even where there is none.
Well the thing is that Michael Bay didn't write the movies, he just directed, as opposed to many other directors like Christopher Nolan who either write, co-write or at least are involved in the story writing on top of directing. The writers of the first 3 Transformers movies actually wrote a compelling story & characters, so that's why you can get a video like this diving deep into the events of the series.
@@John-Xit would be cool if the transformers trilogy were directed by another one, but at same time, i love those movies, so is kinda "choose your poison" for me
What people forget about the bayverse is that is highlighted the fact that they were in a war. Optimus was a pacifist caught in that war, in the first two films he tries to stick to that but we see him realise that the decepticons will not show mercy. So he becomes a person who fights them on their terms, flawed as it was, for someone who’s been beaten, betrayed, and watched countless friends die for no good reason, the fact that he stayed true to his morals for so long is the most impressive thing.
Agree, and it's miraculous what a great fighter he is, considering he was just a data clerk and had no military rank or combat training when he was Orion Pax!
I know, g1 Stan’s complain about someone not being happy all the time while being in a war
@@JetStream_Mann it was even highlighted in the TFP series where Optimus eventually becomes the bayverse prime Because he realizes the Megatron he knew is gone.
@@MarvinzWrldnot really that was foolish decision optimus regretted it
TFP Megatron didnt kill optimus when he became orion due to memory loss. Even just let him touch decepticon database lol
@@MarvinzWrldTFP and Bayverse are two separate continuities.
I think Optimus' slow decent into cyncism and ruthless violence vould make an interesting, even great arc. The issue with the Bayverse is the lack of time they give to Optimus and the other Cybertronians. I think the tragedy behind Optimus having to kill both his "brother" in Megatron and his mentor, Sentinel, would have hit harder if the movies built on their relationship rather than focusing on human shenanigansso much. Even in AOE, Optimus's change in viewpoint of humans gets pushed aside for shit like Cade worrying about his underraged daughter being in an relationship with a grown adult or Chinese propaganda, and by TLK, where the character arc should have reached its climax, he only shares a scene or 2 with Quintessa before turning evil, then disappears for most of the movie and only comes in at the beginning of the third act to first Bee and turn good again after just hearing him speak. The underwritten potential of the story really harms the characters overall, and I don't blame people for thinking these movies are brianless junk food.
@@Staurcomb serious question, is a live-action transformers movie still live-action if there are no humans in it to interact with them (even as background props) or is it just a animated movie even if the backdrops are irl locations?
A lot of it is probably due to the limitations they had to have on screentime for the Transformers due to how expensive rendering and animating them was.
@@Staurcomb to be fair they had to render everything (animals and environments) in the lion king as authentic to the real thing as possible. the cybertron scene in the bumblebee movie (as well as the cliffjumper execution scene) feels rather off imo.
The throughline for Optimus becoming a cynic / merciless "psycho" across all the movies is the fact that Optimus and the Autobots landed in the USA. That's literally it. They landed in the US, learmed everything from an Americentric internet, worked with strictly American soldiers to "save the day" in multiple movies, and went so far as to further American interests overseas on their off time and "go rogue" to help the country play world police as Optimus narrates in the beginning of Revenge of the Fallen and Dark of the Moon. The interspecies relations with the USA making Optimus more amenable to doing war crimes even though he's "supposed to be the good guy" is funny as fuck unless you're a super-de-duper patriot that thinks the USA has never done anything wrong ever because "they're supposed to be the good guys".
Every movie after the first one spends its time sorta fellating the military and the US's accomplishments and then shows the audience in the following movie that working with the US meant jack shit for Optimus's morals and the loyalty humans in general have towards the Autobots, and in fact made his morals and the interspecies relations much worse than if they'd never interacted at all. This culminates in Age of Extinction where the US government has no idea that the CIA is blasting Autobots to smithereens, a regular person can't tell the difference between an Autobot and a Decepticon, and Stanley Tucci uses Megatron's head to model a new Transformer and wonders why the result (Galvatron) looks so evil.
I agree about the underwritten potential these movies have. However, I wonder how much of the blame can really fall on the writers and how much is because of budget. A single frame of these robots is no doubt unbelievably expensive, thus can reduce how much the robots can carry the story themselves.
Maybe if they cut back on the world ending CG spectacles in every film, they would have enough money to focus on more character driven scenes with the robots where things aren't blowing up.
I’m glad there’s someone who isn’t just calling him a psycho without going into more detail, never understood why he acted the way he did until now and it’s very understandable.
I definitely like the idea of the other autobots reacting to his shift in behavior.
Yeah I agree, I was confused at first as I was watching through the movies as to why he became so violent. I now have an amazing explanation right here! Great job on the video dude!
Same. RandomBlackGamer explained this too. Think of Bay Prime as a war veteran that's keeps getting dragged back into war.
The one problem with wanting other bots to express their surprise and displeasure at prime is that they all die and thats the reason he changes. Prime has seen jazz die presumably, ironhide, and he was especially angry about ratchet. And as for the humans, well they're also pushing prime away so they shouldn't turn right around and ask why he's so sad or mad about it.
The problem with this video is that the fight isn't the first time he went psycho, in fact literally in the first part of the movie he executes a con point blank for no actual reason. He went insane there, and there was nothing that merited this change.
he never gone psycho. He merely learned that if he continued to hold back and continue to allow the enemy to have a chance will result in more deaths and potentially a greater risk of losing.
Its a lesson of it's self aswell. Hold back against those who intend to hurt you can and will result in your death aswell as others. Give the foe no chance then you will succeed.
Some times being brutal and overly aggressive is the only way to quickly end something that is a risk to everyone's lives
Prime is not a psycho. He's simply a warrior. A tired warrior that just wanted it all to end.
Exactly! In a war you have to kill. Bay captured the reality of how it would have to be if it was real.
No... no he's pretty crazy I don't think you've watched the movies 😭
@@GivemepeanutbutterI don't think you watched the video.
@@Givemepeanutbutter he only ever killed people who killed his friends and were trying to kill him as well
@@TheRedJadex no I did, but I watched many many other clips after this too.
The reason Optimus doesn’t hold back anymore is ‘because he learns from his mistakes.’
-A certain movie reviewer.
I once watched a theory where the autobots were actually kinda asshats and the deceptions just wanna go home. Firstly the autobots teach humans the way of taking down a transformer(limb from limb practically), while deceptions usually try to go for the spark for the fastest kill. In bayverse Optimus was a crusader shown in AOE and the traps on the ship show how cruel he might have been. Plus the autobots on their own are quite violent and if not given something to fight they’ll try to kill eachother (again drift and bee in AOE). And finally even megatron when he saw cybertron saved he was ready to give up fighting(plus we can’t ignore prime ripping his face off after being saved).
Because Tony always learns from his mistakes
Really makes you wish you didn't need to theorize and that Optimus could have actually slowly become more desperate and jaded and grows aware of it and his experiences as a story arc in the movies.
Its kind of like the role of Nemesis Prime in the Netflix show where he is revealed to become a herald of Unicron in some not so distant future that haunts his older self.
Hint hints *scourge*
He's this same way in the G1 Comics. The entire mission to Earth was a suicide ploy to lure Megatron away from Cybertron to give the Autobots a chance. G1 Optimus intended to die when the Ark went down
@@heraldofoblivion499 With the bay movies behind us I really hope they try making them interestingly written characters like in every other media
@@COrraThereal0ne Itd be cool if it were Transformers actually has a cool legacy to play multiverse with
@@COrraThereal0ne Can't wait to see Nemesis Prime/Scourge return in RoTB.
This honestly makes the forest fight just that much more of an impactful event in the Bayverse films. In a way, it was the end of the story for the Optimus we knew from the first movie, and the beginning of a new story for the Optimus we know immediate post-revival and onwards.
It’s my favorite fight
If only we had good writing to actually make us taste this development of character, instead we have to resort to youtubers fixing the mess they did with this franchise
Bay’s just chilling with an awkward smile thinking to himself “I never thought about the forest fight and Prime’s decent to madness, we just didn’t have any writers so all I could do is action.”
This is honestly a really well done look into how Prime just dipped in mental health and became the psycho we know him as today
I would still pay a lot for a G-1 OP figure with a voice function that has just one line.
"I'll KILL YOU!!"" 😂😂 When he said that to Cade after he brought him out of stasis I absolutely lost it.😂😂 I knew you couldn't save these movies anymore and that Prime, was literally a different character. Of all the things Prime would NEVER say, I'm pretty sure that's #1. Just sayin'. 😂😂
i guess that’s what death does to a person
Dipped in mental health? Or, for the first time ever, realized the realities of war & what must be done?
@@KevinJohnson-cv2no Or having now experienced the US, realized that we are all insane here and he just decided to go with the flow.
@@shawndashno6022 cry about it boomer, Bayverse Optimus is better than G1 Optimus. You don’t understand bayverse Optimus Prime
0:11 with one arm mind you…
😮😮🎉🎉
I genuinely NEVER realized, despite seeing ROTF multiple times, that Optimus wasn't actually trying until around 2:30. Definitely one of the weaker ones, but does a great job of showing how much he cares for all life that he would hold back so much.
Finally someone that has given reasons instead of just calling him a blood thirsty psychopath
🌌☄️✨😌Fax's Man😌✨☄️🌌
People Just Don't All the Secrets Abt the Bayverse That Made It Very Mysterious. And Then They Get the Middle Finger Flipped Upon Them For Being An Embarrassing Short End of the Stick Fool. They Fck Talk Abt It But Not Explanation For Little Things they Find In the Movies without Doing Research. And then I Throw My Head Back And Laugh Because Of How Brainless They Are And They Can't Even Find The Answers. It's Like Having To Find Someone's Car Keys And It's Right In Their Faces. Theroymus AKA Trans Theories Is The Goat On Doing Amazing Stuff Like This.
right? everywhere i go everyone calls him a psycho because he kills his enemies brutally, not knowing how durable cybertronians are
@@orhandalegend no one brings up now comically evil deceptacons are
@@orhandalegend) Optimus' swords cut through Cybertronians like butter, so no, Cybertronians are not too durable for him.
2) The problem is not that he simply kills them brutally. It's that it is needlessly brutal and the kills end up being much flashy and aggressive than quick and effective and also that, while delivering those kills, he also throws one-liners like an 80s/90s anti-hero or just screams "DIE!".
I think it's just rationalizing crappy writing and character development.
Optimus going freako mode on the cons is absolutely based. Killing an enemy as fast as possible completely removes them from the fight and saves your buddies later down the line
Yes but well takes away why Optimus is a Prime in the first place, and that the movies sorely lack. Is that Optimus was given the matrix of leadership(outside of the bay verse) not to just save Cybertron, but to reunite the cybertronians. Even though the decepticons adopted the (kill your enemies as fast as possible) and were ruthlessly brutal, it wasn’t the autobots code because how else could you distinguish anyone anymore if you kill everything that’s against them. Which in the end, doesn’t unite Cybertron, and probably would have sped up the destruction of Cybertron if Optimus started using Omega Supreme and Fortress Maximus to blow out every city the Decepticons were in.
The scene was raw but watching Megs get treated like any other Con grunt is hard to see lol. Would love to see full-power TF1 Megs vs Savage Prime
@Dan Pham doesn't matter he's protecting his people and a whole ass planet of people he shouldn't need to lmao " take away why he's a prime" lmao so take away honor loyalty respect dedication everything that made most primes right😂😂😂😂
@Dan Pham and yes he became brutal but not psychotic dumbass kids need to relearn real definitions of words rather than trying to give words new meaning he simply had to change auto code because he became fully aware deceptions don't give 2 fucks or shiits about automotive human or deception life so just like any fucking soldier would do he puts the righteous motto away and does what needs to be done to insure safety a psycho is someone who has truly lost their damn mind and and either has murderous urges or urges to torture victims amonst others optimus never kills without good reason therefore not phsyco he's fully aware of what he has to do
@@smiaza1357 "his people" should include all cybertronians, that's just fact. Most primes did not have honor/loyalty/otherbullshit idolatry.
There were other primes since the original 13, but they did not have the blessings of the matrix of leadership, also that some were the ones who built the bullshit autocracy in Cybertron that led up to the fuel for dissatisfaction/oppression of the working class, (I.E. Nominus Prime from IDW)
You have some mistaken idea that all "primes" have these characterizations, as if they are perfect.
Transformers 3 almost tried to explore corrupt primes, so I'll cheer only once for them because of that.
I always believed he was well justified in no longer pulling his punches. Dude not only paid the ultimate price himself. But he made sure his troops held themselves back and he lost so many friends due to that. He was sick of it and him dying was just the final straw. Especially I feel after he was resurrected and he saw that things only got worst
This just lines up with one of the few Headcanons I have for Optimus, something ROTB kind of echoed: Prime holds back because he knows how much more dangerous he could be if he didn’t. This is what happens if you push him too far. Remember, in RotF, Optimus had been trying to defend a new planet for years now, and one of his allies, someone he considered a friend was under threat from someone he thought was gone, and it hit him that he needed to stop pulling his punches or billions would die. He said “You’ll never stop at one!” And he was right. They turned around the very next movie, slaughtered Chicago, and tried to kill all humans for Cybertron. And in ROTB, Skirge had up to that point killed hundreds of Cybertronians, many of which may have been Primes friends, and had directly killed Bumblebee at this point, and at his wits end, he knew he couldn’t let Skirge live and made sure he couldn’t come back. Everyone seems to write these events off as just weird outliers, but it’s probably some of the most insanely powerful portrayals because this is what happens if you push a pacifist too far.
@@rogue_2k374Very true. Thats why you never push the nice guy too far or he will unleash his anger onto you.
Great video, loved the idea you explored!
Also, a line that always resonated with me was: “who would you be without me, Prime?”
Something that, coming from Megatron, makes me think that he is aware of the fact that Optimus became as violent and capable as he is in response to the abuse and brutality of the Decepticons. Even as a kid I just accepted the idea of him being done with everything
Exactly. I understand people being upset with that scene. But they need to remember this isn't IDW Megatron. A flawed person driven to violence by an oppressive government. No, he's just Robo Hitler. He may have helped you defeat a mutual enemy, but you still need to kill him.
@@zuttoaragi8349 Yeah. As a kid I just thought to myself: “Well, it makes sense, he could betray Optimus”. I know that the original plan was for them to make a truce though, it would have been interesting
i think youre spot on about optimus going full on berserk after getting reassembled at the pyramid, but i think when he took jetfires parts he also took on some of his personality, jetfires regret of never doing anything worthwhile and the decepticons general commitment to results over principles paired with his own experience could make for one hell of a motivation to violence
Optimus seems like a calm and reasonable person
Just don't do anything that can trigger his PTSD.
Yea this gen is soft
@@tekkadawn6685 stop crying
@@tekkadawn6685hat is blud waffling on about?
@@tekkadawn6685What are you talking about?
having your nemesis come back, kill you, and resurrecting at the last possible moment to still make a difference would make anyone violent, i think. especially a weary veteran. so i think the criticism of his brutality, while understandable, are mostly because his change in character isn't really shown well, or ever adressed in the movies - because otherwise it's one of the most interesting directions to take Optimus
Agreed
I think you hit the nail on the head here, this is an excellently crafted theory! Truly, well done 👍
Yooo trans, I guess I’m first but jeez for 5 days this comment is underrated.
Bayverse man is here
I guess we already have a Bayverse fans chat room.
I personally thought that since Optimus’ spark got damaged like Igor’s I believed that that took a massive hit to his psyche and made him more violent
Yup
There's was a line in the Justice League movie where somebody mentions that you lose apart of yourself when you die, you don't get brought back with everything you once had. I think when Optimus died and was revived, he lost his mercy. Just like when Megatron died and came back, he lost his brutality that made him absolutely feared, he plays second fiddle to Sentinel and isn't nearly as menacing.
Optimus Prime reminds me of Captain Price from the CoD games. If you stick from day one and always watch him till Soap's death, they're very similar. Tried to play by morals and tried to please both parties, but in the end, he went absolute demon for the greater good. From "We get dirty and the world stays clean" to "At the end of the day, someone has to make the enemy be scared of the dark".
I think Optimus realized that restraint is often a crippling weakness when you are facing physcopaths. To defeat then, you have to beat them at their own game. I honestly don’t think that’s far off: the guys over seas that get their hands dirty to keep us safe, come home to their families and try to live a normal life. But the memory of battle scars then for life and there’s no going back, it’s a heavy price.
The guys over seas ain't keeping me safe, I live in another country. So fuck the US military and their murderous, oil-crazed ''service''.
@@priyapepsiThere was also a time they still fought for the people of their countries (world wars).
True, why should it be any different for Optimus, he must have his demons too
@@gtvn2775 That was half a century ago, the people who did the fighting are retired. The people in service now haven't fought in any worthwhile war.
@@priyapepsiAfghanistan doesn't have any oil.
I like to think of Prime in RotF as equivalent to Batman if he realised that his code isn't getting him anywhere. Basically like Batfleck or any of the Batmen that kill. They're still good heroes, just not going easy anymore and not being hesitant to PUNISH. Case in point- Prime's famous "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" was used ONCE in TF1 and never again. Like all Batmen after the death of a Robin, Prime realised in this RotF battle that freedom is definitely NOT the right of ALL sentient beings, and sometimes you just *have* to kill a deserving few to save the rest.
And both batman optimus end up almost destroying world
Wait Batman does already billions of humans gone
@@kp1x oh no, I'm pretty sure anybody that actually properly understand Batfleck knows that he isn't a ruthless murderer. He's not the comics flashpoint Thomas Wayne Batman. His goal wasn't, unlike many anti-heroes, to murder criminals. It was just to enforce law and stop crime by any means necessary after robin's death. Basically, he wanted to kill Joker and was ready to do anything to do so, but supes made him realise the need to go back to his values.
Batfleck is still batman. He's probably the most comic accurate representation we'll ever get, interns of character, lethality and design, just going through a rough spell due to robin's death. Shame that that's gone.
@@kp1x thanks, bruv. Yeah people look at movies superficially and don't even try to understand, and most aren't even that hard to understand.
Glad to meet you, Patel Bhai! The feeling is mutual!
The point of One Bad Day and the death of Robin was to show that Batman wasn’t like The Joker. That even when he was subjected to horrible mental anguish would not stoop to his level and start murdering people. That his willpower and commitment to his code is too strong for that. It’s why Under the Red Hood is such a good story. When that Robin comes back as the Red Hood he’s angry at Batman for not having killed Joker for what he did.
Snyder’s Batman is an anomaly in this regard. A mentally weak version of the character who allowed his enemies to break him. The fact that the Joker is still alive in his world makes no sense at all considering that Batfleck has showed no problem killing nameless goons.
He’s a bad Batman and not representative of the character as he should be.
@@DovahFett there have been countless good versions of batman that have killed and/or have suffered this anomaly. The canon batman isn't the only batman in the multiverse, and almost every batman that has gone rogue has been appreciated. BvS is no different. It follows the same formula as every non-canon bat - robin gets murdered, batman succumbs to the grief, loses his willpower, starts murdering criminals, and this is worsened by Gotham being Gotham and never supporting him. Same old formula that has worked for over 50 years. Only reason BvS wasn't liked was because people were EXPECTING canon bat but BvS was more wild. Now BvS can't be blamed for the audiences' fictional expectations. We all knew what we were getting into. Despite that the movie was reasonably colic accurate in terms of the fights and amalgamation of various storylines. The batman that we got in JL Snyder was probably the most comic accurate version we've ever gotten or will ever get. It got shot down all because people couldn't handle batman killing on big screen when they've happily accepted it in comics and in animated. Which is shameful of the fanbase of what is probably the oldest and most diverse comic superhero ever.
i always love bayverse. it reaaaaly show us “what can war do a person?” He is a million year old civil warrior. He lost a lot of close friend, died, betrayed and it pushed his to limits. Optimus in the first movie was very close to his g1 version but in the time he was done with everyone’s shit and it made him more pragmatic and coldblooded. I love bayverse’s character arcs maybe not for all characters but optimus and sam really had a great development.
He's 9 million years old
What development did Sam have?
@@giba687 hmm let's see he developed the ability to scream for optimus more and uh yeah die offscreen to lockdown
@@Theboredgod Oh yes his screams in t3 were quite impressive. Remember when he wanted to get in the nest facility and the guards stopped him at the door; so he screamed for Bumblebee instead of screaming for Optimus? That was something else.
0:38 that head drop almost made me got a heart attack
Thats why it's an earrape
I think he is just the most realistic version of a Prime. Like, being in a war for centuries would not only harden up everyone, but also burn out seeing something cruel but neccecary as cruel. It becomes just neccecary, because of how common it became for all of Cybertronians during the war.
He is still our good old Optimus Prime, wise and good hearted, who would accept decepticon's surrender and gets sad from having no cjoice instead of killing the enemies I bet, and his good presonality is the exact reason of his brutality - he is ready to give his morality and moral suffering for the victory and survival of people he protects. Because he knows fighting "normally" wouldn't be enough
In the first movie, he killed Bonecrusher as fast as possible. Sure he punched his eye out but that's way more tame than what he did to Shockwave's eye. He didn't even want to kill Megatron but rather himself alongside the All-spark. In the second movie, before his death, he also tried to deal with Demolisher as swiftly as possible and even asked him to pull over. After his death, we see him take out his first fatility on The Fallen, someone who shouldn't have been left alive anyways. Had he killed Megatron in the forest, he would've never had left the planet in danger with his absence. In the third movie, he's done with the Decepticons' shit, even saying that he'll kill them all.
I think Optimus' brutality is a little unnecessary but I think him killing is reasonable enough. This isn't g1 where the Decepticons were just Copy 'n' Pasted schmucks who only got serious in the Movie, these are full on terrorists who needed to be stopped at all costs.
I kind of agree but idk man i think he is a bit "too" creative with kills
@@Inedow_The_Source_of_Racismwhen the enemy glows orange, he doesn't know what glory kill he gets
@@Inedow_The_Source_of_Racismif you think it’s creative, you should see when he’s pulling his punch or his inferior version of Rise of The Beast
I mean Shockwave did kill his girl...in the comics
Thank you for spelling out! While not the most 'faithful' iteration of the character, this Optimus has always felt the most real to me. The progression down his path of increasing violence never felt extreme to me, because movie after movie you see him take losses. You see him constantly being undermined and his words ignored, and the resulting deaths are pinned on him, on his Autobots, for existing, like it's their fault the Decepticons are on Earth. I just feel so sad for him. I never really thought about how traumatic it would have been for him in the forest battle to just...die like that. Got me right where it hurts.
As a side note: nice choice of song for the background! That one has always hit me right in the feels and it's a very fitting backing track for this topic.
Very good song. They used it in one of the trailers for The Last Knight
Yeah from my understanding he came to the understanding that the decepeticons will not stop with one, one human life, one planet, one solar system, one galaxy. Optimus is still good shown by him siding with humanity and him believing in everyones freedom is a right in AOE
What is the song in the background?
@@impa2787 Do You Realise by Ursine Vulpine
Part of what made Optimus Prime a great character and leader was that he didn’t succumb to those impulses and maintained his morality. I know today’s audiences have been conditioned to detest idealized heroes, but maybe that’s part of why the world is so screwed up.
Another thing ive always seen is everyone praises TFP Optimus as the second best iteration of prime since the original series. However nobodys acknowledged that Optimus's character is reflected in that series the same way as he was in these movies. Both had a turning point where they were ready to do what was necessary for the greater good of humanity. For instance in TFP when Megatron defeats the insecticon that Arachnid sent against him Megatrons weak and in no condition to fight. He literally could've been taken prisoner by thr autobots and that would've been another way of ending the war. But instead Optimus was straight up about to execute Megatron, something that everyone complains about him doing to sentinel who arguably did even worse than Megatron, but was stopped from executing Megatron because of Dreadwing. And yet I've never seen anybody complain about it because he was stopped.
Exactly I think everyone especially g1 fans thinks optimus has to be this super predictable stone of a character that never changes/shifts in any way, tfp and movie optimus pre age of extinction/last knight are my favorite versions of the character because their character changes and involve throughout their respective series
People tend to ignore how influential hugely the movies actually where for the franchise also the people that say TFP Optimus was the best since G1 really need to start reading comics its embarrassing
I believe that is the same TFP episode where Optimus reprimands Arcee for how she acted when she found out that Bulkhead and Ratchet had helped Starscream, I believe he said something along the lines of not condoning the termination of any defenseless individual or something like that, what right does he have to say anything when he turns right around and attempts to do the same thing. Its like Arcee does not have a right to feel that way, but he does, I really do not like that version of Optimus because of little things like that.
No one batted an eye in the 86 movie when he was about to execute megatron, I recall Optimus making fun of megatron for asking for mercy
That's a great point and I totally respect your opinion but if I may I always thought the turning point in TFP was great because if you look at I think a few episodes before the season 1 finale Megatron hits Bumblebee with some sort of dark energon weapon but Raph was with Bumblebee at the time so when Bumblebee got hit so did Raph so when Bumblebee returned to the base looking for help for Raphs pretty bad condition I always thought that was moment that clicked to Optimus like if this is what Megatron is willing to do to a human kid what will he do to the rest of the people of earth and all of the people I care about I gotta put him down before something horrible happens. Idk that was always my thinking on things
As an amateur writer, it's very telling to me that no other character reacts meaningfully to Prime's increasing savagery: it wasn't done in service of his character development, it was done by Michael Bay to make cooler and cooler action scenes. Maybe the writers wanted to have this character arc for Prime but it clearly wasn't anything Bay was interested in, if it is the case
4:15 : I get chills here. The way you describe it.
Honestly when you put it like this it makes a lot of sense. Doesn't make the movies better but it does add some much needed context for why OP acts the way he does after the third film. This kinda makes me glad we still have all other continuity OP's who thank God don't end up like this because if they did, then they'd truly become a Nemesis Prime
Makes you think, behind the scenes there was a semblance of good writing in spots, but the direction of Michael Bay obviously pulls it in one way or another.
@@TH_Sofa Headcanon by fans is not good writing in a shitty movie lmao
Tbh, I can't even blame him. He came to Earth with such high hopes and respect for humanity, only for it to constantly be thrown back at him to the point he himself died, and then came back and then had to watch more people he cared about die because of the same species he had so much respect for. In the end, he's still fighting for Autobots and Humanity. He just isn't deluded with the idea that all of humanity deserves his help.
For not being a writer you sure have put in a lot of valid thought into these characters that i dont think the director him self even realized. If you do wanna write i think you should try and see where it goes
I agree, but I would like to add that it's easier to find faults and repair them in something premade than it is to create something new and ensure it works right out the door.
Honestly, I've got no beaf with this version of Optimus.
Bayverse Prime is a protector. Everything he does, for good or ill, is driven by his desire to safeguard that which he cares for. He doesn’t desire death or destruction, and we see him actively avoiding it wherever possible, especially earlier on in the timeline.
The Autobots' enemies in this continuity are essentially irredeemable. Whatever they were before, they're too far gone now to ever recover. They _won't_ stop at one. They won't stop _ever._
At a certain point (and I do think his revival is as good a peg as any) Prime realises the half measures won't work anymore. His enemies can't be reasoned with, satiated, or redeemed, and any mercy he gives them will only be forged into a sword pointed at his back.
Even then, look how he responded to the KSI labs situation. Despite his rage, he went in, saved his people, and limited harm solely to equipment and machinery. That's remarkable forbearance (which he was once again punished for, might I add).
I don’t think Optimus ever went "psycho." I don’t even think that he took Megatron's word or philosophy to heart. I think he just came to realize the truth of his situation and accepted it.
Optimus fought monsters, and wooden swords wouldn't do.
This has grounds in real psychology. A good person engaging and continuous violence + losing loved ones from the choice of holding back + being the best fighter = lack of mercy.
I like the idea that he got more weapons because he barely survived a 1v3 in the Forest battle and after combining with Jetfire he wanted to replicate that with his Jetpack system. But after that failed he went for a more armoured approach with a sword and shield/Gun combo and he made it so he could lift off without wings since that got him tangled before. U can see progress in his weapons and i liked that about the Bay films
he died in the 1v3 in the forest
Barely survived? Bro ya boi died
@@langleysenterprise5134 did we not see the movie? He died getting backstabbed but he survived the 1v3
@@Talking_Ben he died after the 1v3
@@eunsteddi3136 bruh
I just want to say: I love how this isn't just a hate fest of the Bayverse disguised as "It's just an opinion" or "I'm just explaining it." This seems like it comes from a place of love, which I greatly respect. Since something a lot of people don't really get is that this is not your average prime in your average TF universe. This is a world where shit hits the fan, and hits it hard. While I understand the flaws of the Bayverse, it is my most loved TF universe out there. Even as a guilty pleasure.
I heard it mentioned best where the first movie was meant to be "a disaster movie with giant robots". The Bayverse Decepticons are less a ragtag group of misfits that started for something good and went crazy, and just a bunch of psychopaths that love killing, destroying, and bullying. So fighting them as if they're moral equals that can be reasoned with is only going to get you killed.
G1 decepticons: lets get energon to conquer cybertron
Bay decepticons: lets explode a Bank, because why not?
@@shawerful5209 I'm referring to the first 3 movies only
I think the idea of an Optimus that's more bitter and brutal towards his enemies has real potential for an interesting story. Peter Cullen admitted he didn't like how they treated Optimus in the movies, but I feel like even he would like the idea if they truly dedicated time to making it work. And it seems like that's what Rise of the Beasts is doing, what with how he reacts to Noah, and his line of "I am Optimus Prime, leader of the Autobots-...what is left of them."
Here's to hoping we get a better written Optimus in the future films.
His way of killing Scourge really makes me think they might start down that route. I mean, a Prime no longer holding back, one pushes too far, is an insane idea, and having another “evil Optimus” story line would be cool, especially if they introduce Hot Rod before that to have a Rodimus hint.
Really shines some light on why he was so done with Megatron in DOTM and didn't hesitate to tear off his head, especially after losing Ironhide to Sentinel's betrayal. He was tired of constantly losing by playing by the rules.
I mean this was Optimus in the comics as well, he always turned the other cheek until he was pushed, and then he went into FAFO mode.
Prime has always been the epitome of pushing the quiet/nice person too far, there's only so much you can take before you snap.
You make him seem like a really pleasant and kind person, I will percieve him this way aswell
One thing I will always love about bayverse Optimus is the fact that dispute his anger and rage he still knows when to restrain himself and will not under any circumstances go against his morals unless he his forced or is tricked into doing so also just seeing him go on the warpath against numerous cons all at once is epic
I think the comic rising storm is where it all changed, it was a hard hitter for sure. Shockwave destroyed elita in front of Optimus and destroyed pretty much all of nest hq which had human allies, Cybertronian refugees and a full squad of autobots just to send a message to prime. It was one dark comic.
At 1:02 I love that you can clearly hear that he was about to say “know and love” but it cuts right next line
This is the best breakdown/explanation for the escalation of brutality Optimus displayed throughout the bayformer movies. Makes so much sense. Well done.
While I get people may not like how this “isn’t how Optimus’s true character is”…. I think that bayverse primes arc makes pretty perfect sense. You did a great job illustrating that in brief
Something that has to do wit this idea is that in the tie in comics it's shown through Elita, Arcee, etc that Optimus has become noticeably more viscous and merciless in his killing and how Elita especially despises that change (since they were extremely close b4 the war), and then the Arcee, Elita, and Chromia are killed by Shockwave which explains how angry Optimus is when he first sees him and when he fights him for the last time in DOTM
I mean. He isn’t a psychopath, have you seen what he’s been through. A bunch of Marvel and DC hero’s are way more psychotic than him. 😂💀
Ironically, Batman's arguably more crazy because he hasn't stopped villains like the killer clown for good. He doesn't even have to kill them. Just borrow Superman's Phantom Zone projector for a while!
No, he's a sociopathic war criminal
@@johnnygyro2295 facts
Punisher, peacemaker, sometimes Batman, sometimes superman, and many others are way way crazier than Optimus ever was
@John Morgan Batman doesn't do it because he knows it's not his job to be an executioner, it's the LAW's job
You should be blaming the legal system that hasn't given Joker the death penalty a hundred times over
I think he got tired of fighting the decepticons, and then the Fallen (who was supposed to be a noble prime like him), and then seeing humanity betray him and become an enemy just like the decepticons.
The Bayverse really had a lot of potential and if there were way better writers (and if the bots were way cheaper to animate)
I think we could have gotten some good storytelling.
Looking back at the old AOE trailers, it really seemed like it would have a good story arc
"How many more of my kind must be sacrificed"
"YOURE SO WEAK" SAYS MEGATRON AFTER LOSING 1 DECEPTICON,AFTER STARSCREAM LOSING 1 ARM AND HE LOSING 50%OF HIS BODY💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀
What an awesome analysis, I always assumed he was just being driven to madness by the neverending war, megatron returning, humans betraying him and etc that made him go terminator mode, but I never thought to pinpoint it to one specific scene. I guess realizing his "weakness" as megatron put it while he died was enough for him to realize he had to make a change, just like you said, he was ruthless and merciless to every enemy from that point forth. Probably no coincidence that immediately after being revived comes whats arguably his most gruesome and fucked up moment;
"Give me your FACE!"
*proceeds to tear his face off then rip his "heart" out, crushing it infront of his eyes*
I agree - when I first saw it, I was shocked that Prime would do such a thing to the Fallen, it felt OOC at the time, but I now see it in a different light. He doesn't want to act 'weak' anymore, he wants to show his enemies that he means business
This poor Optimus incarnation has been through so much. I’m honestly surprised he didn’t go even more psycho than he did. The bot died for gods sake. To me he is one of the more realistic depictions of the character, his decline through out the franchise is shockingly real. I wouldn’t call him a psycho, more damaged due to the extreme experiences that has happened in such a short time relative to his own age.
For everyone asking about the song used in the video; It's a remixed version of artist Ursine Vulpine's Single: Do you realize. The remix, done by Pusher, was created for use in the very first teaser trailer for Transformers: The Last Knight.
Thanks
Thanks man!
My original draft got deleted. But I think y’all don’t seem to understand that Optimus is a warrior fighting a war. And his opponents are pretty much merciless sadistic, bloodthirsty super weapons with legs. The only part that shows Optimus has a screw loose or two is telling the fallen to give him his face. But then again, he was just resurrected and was probably pissed in ways you can’t imagine. This quote from patton sums things up pretty well. “War is a bloody, killing business. You've got to spill their blood, or they will spill yours. Rip them up the belly. Shoot them in the guts.”
"You're so weak,"
-guy who was getting beat so bad he had to call his goons to jump one guy.
I remember I started seeing videos of how some fans where disappointed in how Optimus changed from being a noble heroes to a merciless warrior. But you have to understand the main them in the Bayverse is WAR changes anyone. But remember how he came back to the light in major moments when needed like with Kade Jaeger and against Quintesa.
I really love this point of view, of course being close to death can change someone, but dying and getting a second chance?
No way that chance it's going to be wasted
I like how people forget Optimus has been a warrior, not a mindless a killing machine for centuries, I like this analysis quite a lot, shows us Optimus was never a psychopath, and the movies shows us how he goes back to what I like to think he used to be back in cybertron and the WAR he and his literal family fought.
Listen. Pet Cemetery theory. Optimus was revived but came back wrong; something inside home shifted. Everyone who is revived by the Matrix of Leadership is twisted in some way, but we only didn’t see it in sentinel cause he was already messed up
I've seen a lot of comments about this, and I agree with most of them. People do forget that Optimus and his Autobot friends/comrades have been fighting a war that was 3 or 8 MILLION years ago and was still happening from the 1st to 3rd movie, and witnessed countless of his friends die, has been betrayed by both his close friend Megatron, then betrayed by his very own mentor Sentinel Prime, and then lastly the HUMANS the very people he swore to protect betrayed him and his tortured his friends.
Optimus in every one of those scenarios were by all means justified for what he did, plus in war it's either Killed or be Killed and including Survival of the Fittest you just can't expect anyone to keep their morals if they were the ones that have been fighting millennia years of war.
I think you put more thought into this than the writers did 😂 good video
Honestly, id kill for a bayverse show that adapts the IDW comics. Edit them to have stuff like the stuff you mentioned at the end and boom, you redeem the micheal bay movies instantly. I just dont know why they havent done this, as the bayverse made them billions i could totally see the show booming on some streaming service
budget constraints. not even paramount can fund a show that's more than 90% cgi
if they adapt Meg's arc from IDW, it'll serve as a pretty good foil to Bayverse Optimus I feel like. Megatron grew tired of all the fighting as time went on and he observed his own failures pile up, eventually choosing to just outright stop fighting. meanwhile Optimus grew frustrated at his failures, and became angrier and more ruthless to his enemies
@@notverypog
They can, can you imagine NOT having to pay for stars to show their face ? That would take a huge chunk of the budget on making the movie. Plus a TF movie with no Humans would be absolute gold for Paramount.
@@notverypogThey dont have to do hyper realistic cgi they can just do what TFP did
If it means retconning AoE and TLK (since they don’t line-up with the comics), then I’m cool with it
Nemesis seems to simply be the final step of this character development
What people forget about Bayverse Optimus
Is that he was never a clerk or a librarian
He was a Knight of Iacon
He was created by Quintessa for the sole purpose of fighting and destroying Cybertrons' enemies
I personally think it makes total sense that he’s gotten more violent especially after he died. Coming back from that would probably make you think about your life and your future
I find it admirable (In the positive sense mind you) that you were able to make actual sense of when and why Optimus decided to Shoot first and Ask questions... later to never. Good work man
Wow 😧 your right the "your so weak is deeper now*
i actually agree with how bay depicted optimus's character especially after 3 and 4 cause really and truly optimus has lost so much from the same humans he was trying to protect. One of his own best freinds ratchet died because the humans made a deal with another transformer which is nuts. And it totally makes sense
my thought exactly with lockdown, they want transformers gone but hire one to do that like wtf that’s wild 🤦🏾♂️
@@ZBABYYYY The ends justifies the means!
This worlds prime gave up his calmer “be strong enough to be gentle” and more merciful ways this Optimus Prime still has the gentle caring Spark of all the other Optimus primes but it’s hidden away in Rage , fear , and distrust.
He didn't have a near death experience, he died
I wouldn't consider Optimus a psycho but I would put it into a perspective of a soldier that is hardened by war. Due understand that the autobots and deceptions are at war so given the carnage that Prime has seen, even his own death and resurrection. Prime has decided to be less diplomatic and mire about action.
Except that when offered the chance to end the war, to put down their arms and work as one people. He decides to just kill Megatron and keep fighting the Decepticons. At this point Optimus is basically saying that he has to kill every single decepticon out there for the war to be over for him. And probably not even then.
You really believed that, did you?
The fact that not only is there an actual reason for him becoming more violent in these movies but also someone finally went into an analysis of it without insensitivity mocking the movies just proves these movies have a bit more credit that they deserves and that people like you need to exist more in the film industry, that you actually use your brain, logic and common sense to analyse a flawed movie that is hated.
For whatever reason I love to see great characters descend into madness to the point where they truly have nothing left to lose and they are willing to do anything to get what they want.
so optimus wasn’t crazy. he did what he knew he needed to do. the change that led him to victory
alright let me paint a picture for you. A man fights in a civil war that consumes his entire planet, his sworn brother in arms turns against him and he ends up losing the fight for survival there. He flees to the stars in hopes of one day finding a new place to call home, never knowing if he ever will, or how many others of his species survived. One day he finds a habitable planet and decides to travel there, rallying as many of his kin as he’s come across since then to that place, unbeknownst to him that those who opposed him in the war had already beaten him there. He arrives with the few he had found and over the course of several years, almost all of them get hunted down and killed by both others of his species and the creatures that had inhabited the planet before them. During a particularly brutal fight, he himself gets killed seemingly alongside the hope for the good side of his race. Eventually an answer is found and he is given a second chance at life. I dont necessarily know about you, but if i had died and was seemingly given a second chance at life, i wouldnt be wasting it trying to play the role of Mister Nice Guy, no matter how mentally or emotionally fortified i was
This was an awesome video brother, great commentary on Bayverse Prime and the deterioration of his morality. Earned a subscriber!
🌌☄️👽✨💗Same :D💗✨🤖☄️🌌
Interesting take. I wouldn’t call Prime a psycho though. He’s defending those that he holds dear to him. Being violent towards those that would be violent towards that which you cherish isn’t bad at all. Violence is a tool and should be in everyone’s tool belt. I really appreciated the lengths he would go to protect his friends and humanity and Bay portrayed it very well 👏🏼
I agree, and it's what I love about the Bayverse films. It's sadly quite lacking in ROTB, but I hope that changes!
He needs to change name then
Thats not really optimus
Thats more nova prime who came before optimus but went missing. My side above all species/violent against all but friends
@@xxEvangelineRxxROTB is part of the reboot to the franchise so it makes sense he isn’t completely unhinged yet and by the end is when he appreciated humanity more so I’m sure in the future if they stay true to his character then he’ll become murderous again
This
The exact moment Optimus prime became Heisenberg
Another great detail that prime has a type of PTSD about his dying moment his biggest failure is in age of extinction as Cade is reviving him the first thing he says waking up was "SAM... RUN" (in a pained desperate voice) the same words he said when he died in the woods he's constantly remembering that moment the moment he failed and saw his weakness in the eyes of a scared Sam and so now he takes no chances!
Some people say he says Sam run because Sam was at the ambush when lockdown attacked Sam never went on away missions and definitely after dark of the moon I doubt Sam would choose missions over his girl after almost losing her for that exact reason she said it herself "he'd rather feel important than be normal with her" am sure after dark of the moon he decided to focus more on his normal life.
"I ain't no writer" but had proceeded over the last 6 and a half minutes to create some of the best most compelling content I've honestly seen in years dude. I gave up on rhe transformers movies I was almost in tears Watching this video so much I never saw happening right in front of my eyes and the perfect music to go along with the narration over the actions sequences. Epic video so glad I came across this and the channel. Definitely going to marathon all those movies this week
I picked up on this too! I started a fan script for a movie after Last Knight and it's a big plot point for Optimus to realize the war has changed him and he can no longer be the best leader in a time of peace, after he kills Runamuck, who surrenders and begs for his life. In comparison, Bumblebee doesn't kill Barricade after the other deceptions surrender, leading Optimus to give leadership and Prime status to Bee.
He’s not a psycho, he’s at war
honestly, im glad they put in the effort to make his being more brutal (and thus making cooler fights) be a visible thing with a clear start. the fight scenes in these movies are consistently fantastic, and they went the extra mile to make it fit in the series.
I realize these films are so war focused not only because of the time period they came out, but because they make the autobots significantly more human in behaviour, meaning that their war is substantially more emotional.
My personal head cannon is that he’s gentle out of battle but in battle he really shows how strong he is
This is why I love Bayverse Optimus. He needs the most love and comfort.
I was gonna go off on a tangent about the psychological effects of the Forrest fight for prime but you started talking about it as soon as I started heading to the comments on my phone (watching on xbox) but all the points you made and how in depth you went were really thought provoking and interesting to consider it helped even me see some new viewpoints and reference ideas. Loved the somber tone, the way you delivered your thoughts and point of view alone was worth sub. Eager to see future content. Subbed.
I do the same thing if on Xbox.
I do the same thing. I watch TH-cam on PS and if I want to write a comment I just grab my phone and start typing.
How do people think a small fraction of autobots survived in this endless war, being absolutely outnumbered by decepticons by hundreds, who also had air superiority.
He could never afford to have mercy.
His battle demeanor changed when he assimilated Jetfire. I noticed it right away. His fighting style changed from traditional warrior to barbarian.
That’s why you never bring someone back from the dead. It’s the Lazarus pit all over again.