The Pennsylvania Railroad's stupidest experiment ever| The K5’s |Garbage on The Rails Episode 9
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 31 ก.ค. 2024
- #AndrewRailaBammers #TheRocketCityRailfan #K5 #Garbage #History #pennsylvania #Train #Railroad #steamlocomotive #pennsylvaniarailroad #PRR #Failure #Engineering
The Pennsylvania Railroad K4 Pacifics are some of the most famous steam locomotives in the world, with 425 of these things built between 1914 and 1928, 75 by the Baldwin Locomotive Works in Eddystone, Pennsylvania, and the remainder in the Pennsy's own Juniata Shops in the old rail town of Altoona, Pennsylvania. They served the Pennsylvania Railroad as late as 1958, and since then two of them are preserved, both being built at Juniata.
1361 is under restoration to working order in Altoona's memorial museum I've had the chance to visit a lot, and 3750, which I stand with for part of this video, at this moment at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania in Strasbourg PA.
Long before that, the legendary British Locomotive Engineer or designer Sir Nigel Gresley of the London and Northeastern Railway used the design of K4's as inspiration for his famous A1 Pacifics,
best known for their sole survivor 4472 Flying Scotsman-the undisputed most famous steam locomotive in the world.
The K4's were used as the Pennsy's new premier passenger locomotive from their introduction and were a very common sight on the network, but by the late 1920's it was becoming common to see them doubleheading,
sometimes even tripleheading because modern passenger trains were becoming longer and too heavy for them unassisted.
So the Pennsylvania went about to design a new locomotive powerful enough to handle those longer passenger trains unassisted, to officially replace the K4's as their premier passenger locomotive.
It wasn't a bad idea, replacing them with more powerful passenger locomotives meant saving money on extra crews and locomotives to run an maintain,
but the way they went about this at first in 1929, was nothing short of an embarrassingly stupid failure being subjected to my torturous analysis I do on this show.
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Watch Mr. Darkness The Curse talk about the K5's
• 5 Otherwise Great Trai...
• 5 MORE of the WORST TR...
Video footage used
• Vintage Railroad - PRR...
• Video
• New York Central's Hud...
• The Life and Times of ...
• PRR K4s Pacifics on th...
0:00-2:44 Background
2:45-4:17 Options
4:18-6:10 The decision
6:11- 7:51 Problems
7:52-10:02 What PRR could have done
10:03-11:24 Consequences
11:25-13:08 What would have happened differently if they replaced the K4 sooner
13:09-13:54 End of the K5's
13:55-18:39 Outro - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
Thank You for the support I’ve gotten ever since I started college! We are almost at 6,000 subscribers! So consider this video, as of the writing of this comment, as an early 6K subscriber special.
You're right. The Pennsylvania Railroad LOVED donating, but couldn't do it anymore at a certain point. Without that mismanagement the S1 would be still here.
Oh dear. The K5. Trying so hard to replace the K4's and failing in dramatic fashion.
4:30 The among us graffiti on PRR 3750’s tender 🤣
Yes 😂
You could say that that K4 is "suspicious".
*PRR K4 3750 was an imposter*
*1 out of 425 remain*
The reason why the PRR didn’t have any 4-8-4 “Northerns” is for the same reason as T-1s being Duplex locomotives with Franklin Type A oscillating cam valve gear and why the PRR didn’t build any “Mountain”-types for passenger service. The main reason is that longer rods are typically heavier and create a greater hammer blow. This would be exarcerbated if the driving wheels were not counterbalanced correctly, which was the problem with the Atlantic Coast Line Railroad R-1 Class. This would mean that more money would be needed to upgrade the PRR’s infrastructure. Also, a low factor-of-adhesion is mainly an issue on gradients, slippery rails, long trains, and low speeds. The Southern Railway Ps-4 Class “Pacifics” had a factor-of-adhesion of 3.79, and they were very successful, powerful, and capable. The same goes with the Southern Railway Q1 Class 0-6-0 tender locomotives. While they had an issue with underpowered brakes due to their lightweight nature and a factor of adhesion of 3.81, they were still very powerful for their size and extremely versatile. I’m not trying to defend the K5s, but I am saying that a low factor of adhesion does not always make a bad locomotive.
The M1's were dual service locos, and a number of them did wear passenger striping for a time.
Another thing with history is that it can have so many perspectives from so many different people. Some you never see coming. The problem is that trying to put in so many perspectives at once can lengthen analysis, and even I have my own limits of what perspectivesI want to put into this stuff without making it too long. Understand too that while Thunderbolt 1000 Siren Productions is amazing at this, he’s been doing it for 6 years and it took him time to get better at it to where he is now. I’ve only been at DOA/GoTR for two years.
It’s true the PS-4’s got away with it. However the reason the K5’s didn’t get away with it as opposed to the K4’s or even the Ps-4, was because the K5 was just too powerful for its own low adhesion, and the PRR having a more rocky geography than the Southern. It didn’t have enough adhesion for its own power to handle over grades like the Alleghenies and other rough terrain on the network like the Horseshoe Curve. So kind of a mixture of PRR overdoing it with power, not coming up with the best way to load up enough adhesive weight, and geography. Then again, the Ps-4’s and K5’s came in for different reasons with completely different origins
Insert the northerns that probably a better locomotive than the T1.
Glad you mentioned the T1s only being slippery when operated by PRR crews. When they were tested by the C&O and N&W, neither of the two found them to be slippery and actually performed well, and on the N&W, it even outperformed the magnificent J at speeds above 70 mph.
Great episode as always! The Pennsy has always been known for keeping to old traditions, and I suppose this is a perfect example of how sticking to old tech can result in long term losses. I also appreciate how you include various mechanical aspects in this series, since I wasn't aware of the 4.0 adhesive factor until now, and it certainly brings home the point of the K5's failure. Best of luck in school, and continue to keep up the great work on the channel!
The Jersey Central was the same thing, Largest locomotives in its fleet were the G class pacifics
That Invincible meme at the end was so funny.🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
It's like a sequel
its almost always worse
16:35 I love how you insert memes into some of these videos to describe what some railroads could have been thinking.
Hello Andrew Raila bammers I am Samu the Hamu studios and I have been lurking in your channel ever since you talked about
the ATSF 2 by 10 by 10 by 2,s in your Dead on arrival/Garbage on the rails series back in 2021 and i would like to say that your content is as great as these TH-camrs such as
Christopher Kovacs
Jim van der kolk(who unfortunately quit TH-cam)
And
Ottomatic.
That's nice to know, given my current status and occasional insults I have to wipe out of my comments from rude people. You're a good fellow.
I recommend getting one of those tiny microphones and using the audio from that and the video from the camera.
I would agree. I just didn’t think about doing it for my own use until I started editing this video.
There’s of course the old saying “we all live and learn” that is especially true when you try something new. And it’s not like I’m going to use this new style every time.
In 1939 the Lima Locomotive Works extensively rebuilt and thoroughly modernized Pennsy K4 5399. The end result was an engine powerful enough to do the work of 2 standard K4's. LIMA wanted to do the same work on a Pennsy M1 but due to circumstances such as the Pennsy’s reluctance to explore the options and onset of WWII it never happened. The Pennsy also favored Baldwin over the other builders and they, in my opinion, convinced the Pennsy to invest in experimental designs that often weren’t proven out. During the steam years Pennsy had gone to both ALCO and LIMA for assistance in new designs only to have Baldwin or their own Juniata shops do the work. The K5's also were built without stokers which was not surprising knowing the Pennsy's view on modern appliances for their engines. Can't imagine the work involved for one fireman to keep the K5 hot. Thanks for the interesting video.
That makes a lot of sense, since Baldwin was the closest locomotive workshop to the Pennsylvania Railroad apart from the Juniata Shops.
This was an enjoyable and well detailed video, the PRR K5 class was desired to be an improvement from the K4 design but it had issues with wheel slippage despite producing higher tractive effort. The PRR should have considered designing either a 4-6-4 or 4-8-4 type locomotive for their passenger service, seeing a PRR design for either of these two engine types would have been interesting and impressive in my viewpoint since the PRR never owned any 4-6-4 or 4-8-4 types. I always heard reports about the Pennsylvania rr K5 class being failures and this video effectively described why due to their personal performance flaws and issues.
12:52 THANK YOU FOR MENTIONING THIS. Almost everyone demonizes him for this, but never looks at his forward thinking and the positives he did for the Central.
Plus, he didn't scrap EVERY NYC steam locomotive, he actually donated ESE 999 and Mohawk 2933 to museums.
it still amazes me American Flyer chose this thing over the iconic K4
In my eyes it was a normal K4 but made bigger to pull heavier trains.The K4s while great were the main passenger engines the problem was that they were heavier locomotives for special trains for the broadway limited thwew were actully build a 4-6-4.
This is a certified frog snot moment 😂
Good episode Andrew
I suppose the were more of a test bed for recent (post-1920) developments in locomotive technology, not a prototype for a new class. But they were a blind alley. The big question is why they build that last batch instead of M1s, or put the effort into making an M1 into a Northern. Then the depression hit. By the time the needed more locos (the War) a LOT had changed. Evidenced by how much better the Js were than anything out of Altoona. And they were C&Os just about the time the K5s or a few years later.
Pennsy's mistake was acquiring the last 100 K4's.
@@660Oliver agreed, but I have a soft spot for the M1a
@@roberthoffhines5419 Same. I like their look, especially the prewar one. I do think they would have made great premiere passenger locomotives on heavier passenger trains for the Pennsy, even the heavier ones if the infrastructure allowed it.
The K-5 was my favorite PRR locomotive.
Could I give this a makeover? I can barely hear a thing partially.
Poor , Poor 3750
No kidding. Infact while I was there, the H8 consolidation and 0-6-0 at the museum were tucked away in a gated-off section of the property and undergoing cosmetic restorations. The 0-6-0 had even been stripped of its paint and coated in primer, and the H8 appears from my photos to be next in line.
@@AndrewTheRocketCityRailfan4014 Also 520 , Poor girl. Had such a rare event happen to her and still rusted away.
@@masterbadger9408 Infact both her and the H8 were even sitting behind their own tenders instead of the tenders being behind them
She’s looking rough
I saw among us on 3750's tender
I love this series
You forgot to mention 1361’s return to steam and her present restoration to full running condition.
Can I please have a link to the usable NYC footag? (I need this help due to problems with getting copyright right.)
The K5 was an honest attempt to improve the K4's tractive effort. The main problem was that due to clearances the locomotive couldn't be more than a certain height, and with the increased power output water carryover to the cylinders was inevitable. The K5 was a poor steamer due to the less-than-ideal steam dome height. There was much debate among PRR higher-ups as to which trains the K5 would pull due to maintanence layovers.
The k5 should not have been built in the first place.
The K-5 was only build as a test bed for the cylinder design for up coming of the M-1.
One problem. The M-1 were in service for 6 years before the K5 were built.
Very good video! I sure hope #3750 is restored & steamed up one day!!!
3750 doesn’t need to because 1361 in Altoona is already being restored to operation.
Something else i just thought of. Maybe part of the reason there was a gap in passenger steam development between the last K4s and the S1 was the Pennsy was hoping to electrify at least to Pittsburgh. They already had too many K4s E6s etc after the GG1s took over the corridor. But maybe the infrastructure costs never came down with technology and the depression hit. Then the war. Both of which rendered the T1s were 10 years too late to work out the bugs. Then diesels which carried their own electric plant on their backs did an end around on electrification and sealed the deal.
Yes. High Iron Mentions it in his video about duplexes. There were a bit of info he also put in, including how the K4’s were the newest passenger locomotives on the pennsy until the S1 and T1’s showed up, which does make some question PRR’s motive power department
I admit to hating Perlman in the past, but since warned up to him given what he has done for the NYC
They could always replace them with electric trains and diesel!..
LOL. They had been pretty focused on electrifying the NEC at the time. Heck if the ICC and government regulations were as relaxed as they were in the 1980s, I wouldn’t be surprised if that would’ve made it possible for the Pennsy to electrify other areas of it its system, maybe even the Altoona area
Besides Penn Central.
You should check out the Rough&Tumble Historic Association in Kinzer PA while you're out that way. It's only a little down the road.
I forgot the k5’s existed
Or T1 trust can replicate NYC 5313 because the original tender survived. Have you thought a line like this series for the best locomotives like the said J1-J3 hudsons, JNR 8620, or the SD40-2?
Can you do a GOTR on the Baldwin Triplexes?
It's coming next(as indicated in the last GOTR poll)
Just finished the script for it. And ounce I have everything finished with my Diff Eq's course this summer and finished my next upcoming video which is another random idea I came up with, then the triplex video is a go to make.
The Lionel model 675,according to the service book is modeled after the K-5. Not the K-4.
I have a question, Why did you change the series name from Dead On Arrival to Garbage on The Rails?
I like the latter name alittle better, it sounded more descriptive to me, and to others
I saw 3750 and the others in 2022.
it's insane and laughable that they chose a T-1 to resurrect....I'd never give money to that
I was opposed at first but warmed up to it upon realizing just how much of the T-1’s potential we never saw in the days of steam. Still I’d rather see them building a Hudson instead but if they can make a T-1 then a Hudson won’t be a problem
You can always start a group and build a NYC Hudson from the ground up yourself, instead of being all talk and not doing anything about it. 🤷♂️
I think I prefer the Japanese railway 4-6-4 C62 over the prr k5
perhaps if the K4s were replaced sooner, perhaps engines Like the T1s, Q2s, and 6100 might of landed spots in preservations.
There were a lot of other factors involved but it still makes sense given the money lost on passenger service leading up to the 50s and beyond thanks to (idiotic) overregulation
Bro, great stuff, but you need a clip on mic!
Geeze, I’ll type it again for the millionth time, I WAS TRYING SOMETHING NEW AND EXPERIMENTAL AND WAS DOING EVERYTHING TO CORRECT ANY FAULTS!!
To be honest I never was fond of the k4 design
I saw the k4 in strasbourg pa
God video, but that beginning was painful with the all the wind and noise.
I put the subtitles there for a good reason, and I’ve heard enough of these complaints
Everyone ignore what some would argue is the pinnacle of passenger steam power off to side there. Just keep moving, nothing to see.
Never knew that the K5 were Failures
Indeed, at what they were meant to do for the Pennsy
This needs a voiceover for the entire video.
I was just trying something new. Not like I was going to switch to it permanently. Jim Van Der Kolk also did something similar in his "Top 10 Least Favorite UK and US Steam Locomotives". But it’s true he had better weather and was better prepared, not to mention older and maturer than me. I’m only 20, and he was I think 22, or 23 at the time.
Cut the busy kid a break. He just got back from college
nah! re-edit this
Oh Btw, I bet you didn't know that PRR had Articulated locomotives like the HH1 (Ex N&W Y3). They even had a French Compound Atlantic type that they retired and scrapped because it was too weak.
I did know that. I've known it since the day Cowl unit productions put up this "Every PRR steam locomotive in 10 words or less" video, which came before I even made this one.
Ok, you seem to like physics, science and numbers. Please explain to me how it is possible that if the PRR had made the K-4 into a Hudson it would have pulled better? I fail to understand how adding an extra dummy axle to the locomotive would increase its pulling power or adhesion to the rail? As far as I see it, the only way to increase traction is more weight on the drivers and more driving wheels contacting the rail. The K-5 is not exactly a small pacific. However the amount of weight on the engine truck and trailing truck compared to the drivers is a huge factor in its ability to grip the rails as well as how ridged those suspensions are on the engine truck and trailing truck meaning if they allow the drivers to bridge a low spot in the rails because they don't give enough to compensate for track irregularities. And as for track structure being the issue with not making a Mountain? PRR had the biggest/heaviest main line rail of anyone in the east. And they did have dual service mountain locomotives. Don't get me wrong here, I love that you are trying to bring history to the younger generation of the real days of railroading. But there are a lot of facts and things that you yourself don't fully understand but will with time. Also you really should invest in a cheap lapel mic for doing videos like this. Then we could actually hear what your saying! :)
I wish I was better at explaining stuff like this but unfortunately my aspburgers syndrome and shy attitude with talking are still giving me a bit a trouble. It is something that engineering students like me do have to learn how to do anyway in college which is be able to explain complicated matters and solutions to problems toward people who aren’t experts with it. I did try to hint at what I was trying to explain with that caption in the Niagara photo but wasn’t as specific as I hoped to be with my mind that dislikes talk. What I meant to explain through that little caption was, the reason that Mountains and Northern types were able to even get enough adhesion unlike the K5 was for a few reasons. 1. that they had more driving wheels to get more grip on the rails. 2. From what I was able to conclude from the information about these being preferable to the K5, the longer frames resulting from more drivers long wheels gave more space for more weight to press down into the driving wheels, thus being converted into adhesive weight.
Also the reason the NYC when for a 4-6-4 instead of a Pacific bigger than their K5’s and 3’s, was due to axle load limitations on its rails. They realized they would need a longer frame and a larger firebox to support a bigger boiler to handle lengthening passenger trains while complying with the axle load limitations. From the sound and analysis of it, the larger firebox of the Hudson’s also meant it was heavier, thus adding in additional weight that would’ve helped load more onto the driving wheels.
On a final note, I did also put up in another captain that the K5’s engine wheelbase was the same as the K4, so that meant there wouldn’t have been enough space for the fatter boiler to load enough weight into the driving wheels. But they were also too powerful for such a low adhesive factor, hence why the slipped so easily. I hope it cleared up something, apologies for not being so clear at firsts
@@AndrewTheRocketCityRailfan4014 Yep, That does make more sense than how you put it in the video for sure! :) The reason they would build a bigger firebox is for more heating surface which equals more steaming ability of the boiler. which in turn is heavier requiring the two axle trailing truck. Yes weight distribution is an issue for bridges and some rail sizes and NYC did take that into account. They were quite proud of their 4-8-4's and they did perform very well. As A B&O man myself I know more about their engines than other RR's but I am also a licensed steam engineer by trade, And I operate a steam locomotive on some weekends as well as stationary industrial boilers. Steam has always been a love of mine for many many years. One bigger issue the NYC had like with building the huge Niagara's was tunnel and over head bridge clearance. They made the boiler so large on those engines, they had eliminate the steam dome on them for clearance. This in turn brought higher potential for carryover. So the crews had to keep the water conductivity in check much tighter especially at high boiler loads. Thanks for answering my questions about your comments and good luck. :)
@@s16100 Thank you sir. I’ll admit I’m also more of a Union Pacific and even a New York Central fan than a PRR one
Also, trying to emphasize the physics in addition to so many historical viewpoints is quite a challenge I’m still improving upon. Considering AmtrakGuy 365 and Thunderbolt 1000 Siren Productions have been doing similar work for longer than I have, with less mentally stressful college work that mine(engineering) intervening, I haven’t lost hope of getting better at as I keep doing it more
@@AndrewTheRocketCityRailfan4014Practice makes perfect. No one just jumps into something and is perfect the first few times. :) But if I can give you some advice, I am in my upper 50's. I never set foot in a college because I believe they are more interested in teaching you their views on politics and book knowledge. I have a rather high Mechanical aptitude, and it runs in my family. My uncle was a mechanical engineer even. So to my point, over the years I have seen so many college educated people come into the workforce knowing it all because they have a degree and the books says it works this way. And they are so annoyingly stupid because while they can sit down and quote to me math equations I can't begin to understand or even care about, the reality in physics is things don't always work the way the book "theory" says they will. There have been so many times industry that bosses fresh with a degree came to me trying to demand that a machine can be changed and run faster or better only to have it break and then they scratch their heads walking away while I, the uneducated idiot fixes it and makes it run again right. So what I am saying is, you have to get a few years of hands on in the grease and dirt to understand how things really work. And for some reason the colleges do not seem to teach that. Some professors have never set foot in the industry they are trying to teach you about. How can they possibly have answers? The book is a great starting point to understand roughly how things are, but real life experience is the only way to really get it. BTW I studied and passed the exam for steam engineers with no school at all, and my license is equivalent to a 2 year degree. So I am probably not totally stupid! :) So all that said, please do not leave that school with a degree and be cocky like most do. be humble and realize there is still lots to learn ane you will never stop learning. :)
The Pennsy was partially about experimenting. Of course, some steam locomotives weren’t successful. Goes to show you that the K4s was the perfect Pacific.
I don’t see the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania’s link in the description.
Fixed
The K5s failed and they were all scrapped with no examples preserved.
There were only 2 built.
Horrible sound!
Let me guess the wind. Yeah I know, you can knock it off now.
Andrew, enjoyed it but the audio is terrible!
What audio? I know my microphone was on the right settings, but I was just speaking too hard because I'm notorious for taking to extreme measures to keep myself in control and sounding normal while recording my voice. So, I think I was just overstressing my mic(which is still far better than the watery old one of 2021). That's how difficult my aspburgers syndrome makes it for me to sound normal talking into a mic while in an enclosed space. I’ve been planning to announce the truth about this for awhile, but the process of narrating his hard for me. I’m not as good at it as I’d like to be. I have a lot of trouble with trying to read it without tripping up. My voice is only part of the issue. I have to put up a fight with it in order to make it sound the way I need it to. Also, my editing software really likes to mess up my narration audio a lot but I don’t think I got away this time. Even then, my search to find more advanced watermark-less ones that are free and support mp4 files have failed. Whenever there’s an audio issue nowadays, it’s all on how I project my voice with my mental limitations. It appears that God’s plan for me was not to have the best voice, let alone a good one, but to be an amazing engineer. I never enjoy talking at all, but it won’t stop me from from trying to share my knowledge and practicing the art of voice projection to my best use of it in my future.
I disagree Thomson
If you’re talking about the in person audio, nature just was going to win anyway with what I had. If you’re talking about my voice recordings though, It’s just how I sound and talk into microphones, so you’re gonna want to back off on that.
Can't understand a thing you're saying
Stupid wind is to blame. I posted the video script in my discord server if you want to read it
Now I see why channels have mics close to their mouths or on their shirts. No offence
Please take note that I didn’t see the wing coming and was trying something different. But serious YES I KNEW IT SINCE I STARTED EDITING PLEASE SPOT IT unless you want me to clean up my comments section again
Wear a mic. Pls.
Well, trying something new takes a bit of lesson to learn to improve and I can’t Denny it.
I'm sorry man but you're a month late April fools day has already passed
Dude,, you okay? This wasn't meant to be an April Fools video, just a normal one, otherwise I would have done it in an April fools style.
Thank you for this. I loved it.
If you’re gonna make a historical video you should really try making seen a little bit professional.
Hey, I was just trying something new with no intention of carrying it over into future videos, and seeing how I could improve upon it later on. Just forget I was in college at the time, so prep time was very limited.
@Packr72 seen. What is seen? Why not be quiet.