105 Car Train Attacks the Wahsatch Grade on the UPRR Evanston Sub HO Scale Model Trains in Action
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ก.ย. 2024
- This video features a 105 car train
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The prototype DPU systems have very little computer interface with train operations. They have a couple different modes that will help mitigate issues, but not eliminate them. It is still incumbent upon the engineer to manage the slack and buff forces in the train. The engineers have two modes to work the DPU with. Synchronous mode and Independent mode. Synchronous mode is when all of the locomotives throughout the train match the throttle position of the lead/controlling locomotive. Independent mode gives the engineer the ability to independently change the throttle and dynamic brakes of the lead locomotives and the trailing DPU consists. This becomes more complicated when the train has more than one set of DPU locomotive consists, but there can only be two (2) DPU locomotive consists in a train. The engineer only has the ability to place the train into Independent mode in one place. This means that all DPU consists are in Synchronous mode while the Lead consists has controlled Independently, or the Lead Consist and the first set of DPU's are Synchronous while the last DPU is controlled Independently. Moving the Independent/Synchronous location is referred to as putting up the "Fence."
There is one Independent condition that is locked out by the DPU. The system will not allow the lead consist to the in throttle pulling while the trailing DPU consists are in dynamic braking.
Some locomotives have RTE (Reduced Tractive Effort). It is essentially a toggle switch that limits the tractive effort to about 80%. These are supposed to be used on manifest trains with empty cars close to the DPU's to prevent over buffing the train and squirting out those empty cars.
Examples; L=locomotive, C=car
LLLccccccccccLLcccccccccccL is Synchronous.
LLL{fence}ccccccccccLLcccccccccccL Lead consist is Independent from Synchronous DPU consists.
LLLccccccccccLL{fence}cccccccccccL Lead and 1st DPU consist is Synchronous while last DPU is independent.
There is also a formula for placing DPU consists in a train. Placement of DPU mid train without rear helper is based on the following formula on the UP. Tonnage of train divided by number of equivalent powered axles gives tons per powered axle for train (TPA). Multiply the TPA X 1/2 EPA of the mid train consist this will give you the tonnage to be placed behind the helper consist if the tonnage exceeds coupler restrictions a rear helper will have to be added. The placement can be moved by 5 cars in either direction to comply with placement restrictions empties, loads, hazmat, etc. A C44 or 45 has 12.1 EPA, an SD70M has 10.4. On a 9000 ton train running 3 C45's on the head end and 3 C45s DPU units will be 9000/72.6 = 124 TPA. 124 X 18 = 2232 tons behind the DPU consist.
I am just making an educated guess that if you slow the train down to about 1/2 the speed at the bottom of the helix, your trains will not have too much buff forces by the DPU's.
Ive not ran any multiple DP setups yet, except on the simulator for recertification, but run regular DP all the time. Our territory is extremely undulating and synchronous would rip a train in two, so the "fence" must be up. Im also not sure about UP operating rules, as well as this being a model, there's special licenses.. lol. But on NS, DP locomotives cannot vary by more that one. Example would be for this trian would be required to be ran as 2x2x1, or 2x1x2. Most of what i run is 2x1, or 2x2. I have had to run 1x2, which was pretty stupid, and ive been leaving roanoke yard in VA and watched empty coal trains returning from Norfork Va, come through set up 3x4x2
This info is sooo helpful. Thanks! I should have had the second DPU on a separate throttle and reduced it while in the helix. Sounds like having two separate mid train DPUs is not common. What does EPA stand for?
Equivalent Powered Axles. I should have better explained the nomenclature.
TPA = Tons per Powered Axles
In thinking about the use of a separate throttle.
It might work. One thing to consider.
The prototype locomotives have the ability to freewheel (Merriam-Webster defines as; to roll along freely independent of a gear) when slack or buffering forces are moving faster than the locomotive. The prototype even has a neutral throttle position that allows the locomotive to freewheel and roll freely just like the cars. HO locomotives will not freewheel and are rigidly tied to a throttle speed match.
This may complicate your ability to use two throttles and run the HO train in independent mode. But in all honesty, try it out. HO derailments are not as damaging as prototype, so you have little to lose by trying it out. Besides, you may have a great deal of fun trying to master the challenge. I know I would.
Thanks
Kevin
@@EvanstonSub
The locomotives with RTE on Union Pacific, have Controlled Tractive Effort software which reduces the tractive effort to that of a C40 dash 8. All AC4400s and some Gevos are fitted with this. All this came about when AC units went into service in the Blue mountains in Oregon. The helper sets were C40-8s. On more than one occcasion, when the head end power was one or more AC unit, and suffered wheel slip, the sudden increase in tensile forces in the train resulted in broken coupler knuckle(s) or even a pulled drawbar. The 5700 series AC4400s were the first units with the CTE software and went to the Blue Mountain area.
I think this is the first time I've gotten motion sick watching a video. What would have been really cool was if you had put the camera on a tripod at one of your scenic spots and let us watch the 105 car train go by like a true railfanning experience.
Next time!
Love your layout!!! You have really built an amazingly awesome RR thanks for sharing it with everyone!!!
You are so welcome!
Looking good Daryl, Longest I ever got was 60 cars behind one of my Bigboys on my old layout with 2% grades figure 8 with a elevated crossover at the X, one track went down the other up. that was a 12x11x10 U shaped on 4x8 ply cookie cutter method. I only got that many cars becuase the caboose was 1 car away from the loco LOL but it was fun to do once in awhile :)
I hope to have a big boy on the rails eventually.
Quite the train. DPU placing might have prevented the derailment as cars placement. great video.
true
I also have 8 scale miles of track w/ grades. On all my Scaletrain locos, I turn my back emf off. The ST motors are plenty strong and don't need to be on. But you will need to adjust the speed table.
Interesting
Manufacturers recommend turning down Bemf in consist.
When I build my empire (yeah right) I'll be sure to run an alternative to a helix and that's as much tangent track not exceeding 1% that I can, with broadest possible radii (and very long easements between tangent and curve) to go down to staging. Towards the end it reduces to .5% for at least 50 cars then does a full lap at grade to enter staging.
You said leave a comment so I thought about all the diabolical problems that helices present to long trains that I've seen on TH-cam and have come to this impractical conclusion.
I do love long trains and this was great fun. I was reading others' comments and something someone said re their helix reminded me of my layout I had as a kid. Mine had a double track mainline and I had no end of trouble with derailments until I discovered turning the speed up to about 80% helped so much that they would run like that without problem for an hour sometimes.
I'm very happy with my helix. I think you would have just as many issues with an extremely long tangent grade.
I’d consider your track work bulletproof, fantastic attempt with such a long train
thanks!
Fun to watch! Would’ve been curious to see how it ran 3x2x0 with the DPU’s cut in around 60 cars deep
Probably a better idea
You could most likely fix that pushing/derailment issue down the hill with less DPUs. Or maybe just one further towards the rear allowing more slack between the the head end and DP. I’d recommend 3 locos on the head and a single DP about 75 back. If you ever plan on running that size again. Seems your track work is great!
That could work. All the trains going down the helix either have no dpu or just one at the rear. Works well
It’s silly but I find success taking large trains down my helix, when I simply speed it up. This helps reduced any slack action created by the elevation change, keeps things coupled and on the rails.
interesting
@@nicks521 Makes perfect sense. I remember when I was a kid and I had a layout. I had no end of trouble with derailments until I ran at about 80% on the controller and they would run for an hour sometimes. That was on a double track mainline.
You need a weathering party for all those shiny locos and cars
So true. It will happen sometime in 2024.
I want all 105 cars ☺️ I love long freight trains also got my 1st tank car btw!
Cool
A few years ago-I think in 2021-it occurred to me to make a train with enough cars so that the last one would be a couple of feet behind the last helper locomotive in a design that is a curved bone with a radius of 75 centimeters minimum and level, in a room of 7.5x3.70 meters. It took me a while to adjust the speeds but I managed it with 3 Athearn locomotives (SD90, SD60, SE45) and a Broadway (ES44AC). I managed to make a couple of circuits without problem (there were no crossovers). Two days later there was a strong 5.8 earthquake and at least half of the cars overturned. I must say that I lived in Chile and that in the 2010 earthquake, which was a magnitude 8.8 and which caused the loss of my house built less than 20 years before, the damage to the layout was enormous and completely out of scale.
Wow, that's amazing. Sorry about having to deal with earthquakes.
That was really fun! By far one of the most awe and wow inspiring feats ! Very cool... I was really surprised at how well that actually preformed. - Gary
Me too. I should have had the DPUs on a separate throttle and reduced them while in the helix.
@@EvanstonSub…I’d try the suggestion that the gent who explained how DPUs work first. Try reducing the overall speed at which the train comes down the helix. That may solve your derailment problem…also, check the weight of your freight cars. Some manufacturers make lighter cars and have a tendency to derail a lot easier that those weighed correctly.
Wow definitely could use another person to help the train threw the helix. I'm curious if you are going to put in some backdrops in the staging area?
Maybe
Loved it! My one local hobby shop that is 40 miles away from my house recommends 1 oz per inch. If a car is eight inches long it should weigh 8 oz. Not according to the NMRA which recommends a slightly different scale. I have followed his advice and weighted all my cars and have never had a derailment. Of course, it makes for a heavy train. And I no longer run DPUs since I have yet to speed match my units. Maybe one of these times you can run two trains in the same direction like a race to compare weight capacities for distance. Another thing I have done with QBasic is have my program measure all my cars so I know how long each train is. It gives me a good idea on how to place what power units in the train. Seems to work well at this point.
Very cool. So many fun aspects of model trains
That helix is nuts
can't argue.
Very impressive Daryl !!! DCC is the best invention since the sliced bread !!!😂
Agree!
Darryl - once again, great video. I wouldn’t sweat the derailment; prototype has them too!! lol As I once again find myself drooling over your RR, scented or not, I find myself looking forward to the day you start weathering your trains. Awesome job, love the videos.
And I read an earlier comment in this thread, about using separate throttle for your DPU’s - I’ve had the pleasure / privilege of operating on the La Mess RR in San Diego a few times, using manned helpers in operations with separate throttles.
weathering... all in good time. I figure it's more important to get rid of all the plywood landscape first.
@@EvanstonSub no complaints from me. Loving your process and loving your work
That's pretty awesome run with great results considering the length of train and a helix involved. I can't stand my helix and can't wait to dump it once I expand the layout. Thanks for sharing, look forward to seeing the ballasted yard. - Steve
I'm quite happy with mine so far. Good luck on your layout!
@@EvanstonSub I’m just not a fan of helixes though, glad you’re happy with yours. I too have more issues with trains going downhill vs uphill.
Magnificent!! Thank you.
You're welcome
Laptop to tweek DPU power. Camera from Costco staging yard, helix. I would say went really well all by yourself!
I should have had the DPUs on a separate throttle and reduced them while in the helix.
Hi cool. We did 55 cars 2 DPU 50 more cars 2 DPU at the end .lead engines 5 in total 9 engines to get up a 2.9% grade down to 1.9% grade then back to a 2.9%grade up to the top of the canyon & into a 8 foot long 12 track holding yard in the middle of the layout. Before going in to the city .
Sounds like fun. Is this on a Model Layout?
Yes it is on a model railroad I'm building . 1996 we started BCRAIL freelancing in parts from sawmill to pulpmill to the big 12 track holding yard then. Through the costal section to the city of Vancouver. The yard ends there. 3 rooms 2 levels 2 helix. n scale. cn & BCRAIL . 21 cars are my longest train but you could run 30 car train will fit in the yards. It takes all day to run 3 trains to the city. Provideing there is no derailment.? That includes switching action with the SW engines in the yard to make up the trains to clear out the yard for the next trains to arrive.
Great video. I really enjoyed it. Did you have the dynamic brakes on when you went down the helix? Or keep the dynamic brakes on while the rest of the train was rolling down?
No brakes, although I probably should have at least lowered the throttle on the DPUs
The Tsunami 2 dynamic brakes can be configured to slow the loco down ( adjustable),not sure about Lok Esu etc.
Daryl, looking down on the top of your helix is fascinating.🙃 First time I saw it under construction, I thought the extra outside track must be a branch line and that there must be a turnout somewhere on the top.🤔 (how could 3 tracks become 2 w/o a turnout?) But the track crossing over the first lap down is genius.😳 I'd be happy to see that "scene" in every video.🤗 Gotta Love It! 🚂Lawrence
You and me both!😀
That is one really impressive train. Thanks for sharing.
You bet
Should stick through cars at the end or start to do cupler hight check or replacement. I haven't gotten that far yet so we are running cars with couplers that don't quite line up so when u go through a dip they can uncoupled.
I've been working on couplers and have 100% converted to Kadee and all height adjusted. Would probably have better luck if I tried this again. I regularly run trains from 30-50 car lengths with excellent results.
Wow big train very awsome love the updates always love to see more
Glad you enjoyed
You did good 😊 from Neil schwerdt in west valley city Utah.
Oh wow!
Does your layout have its own zip code? Looking awesome it is!
Not yet! :)
I fined that light cars at the end heavy cars at the front its weighted cars good no weight lot of issues also trucks wheels and coupler height.
I do not place cars in trains according to weight unless they also do so on the prototype.
I think Bemf adjust is CV 54 on Lok.Tsunami2 is CV212.(217&10 also).There may be others?
There's like 6 or 7 and it's not really clear to me what each of them do. I usually just go with the factory defaults. Although I did adjust my FEF with positive results.
For BEMF it depends on the decoder, with ESU you can reduce or remove it at higher speeds, so I reduce it above 15 mph, giving good slow speed control and allowing them to match better above that. Then I have some Lenz decoders where I can't do that but they seem to work ok with those that do have low BEMF. I find and it has been documented by others that you should not have too much power for a train when running DPUs or helpers, then locos don't have the power to push cars off easily. Another is avoid starting or stopping too fast and have all locos with the same momentum time settings.
good advice thanks!
Wow that's cool Daryl, definitely need another person to help run this train. I'm curious if you are going to have backdrops in your staging yard?
Probably not. But now thaat you mention it...maybe
You need to talk to Gregg from fishplate films ..he knows is stuff man
Bemf everything
never heard of fishplate films
Great video
Thanks for the visit
Hi Daryl,
Very impressive, I'm astounded that you had so few problems 🙂 Are all your cars weighted to NMRA RPA 20.1 or more ?
I don't think so.
Whooooo you didn’t do a safety stop before you made that joint lol…
oops
@@EvanstonSub we hate that rule lol. Don’t worry.
Pretty simple, don't need to be in a power throttle setting to go downhill.
true
i look forward to your video, if you fix the issue of going down a helix,, I have not figured it out yet ,,
Will do
Awesome..
Thank you! Cheers!
😮 Awesome 👍😎
thanks!
Cooltastic👌
thx
Very very good Darryl as always 🇦🇺👍
Many thanks!
Daryl, how long were your trains on the old n scale layout?
Coal trains were the longest at 40 cars. Was never able to get DPUs running consistently without problems.
Did you speed match all your locomotives?
Yes
Do you plan on weathering the cars or such to look more prototypical?
Yes definitely. Want to get all the basic scenery and ballast in place first.
Question can you run the upper level only or do you have to use helix
nope.
He's from Australia
Ok
what length train can make it up the helix with 2 locomotives?
30+ cars
What are the dimensions of the layout?
its 2200 sq ft
I owe you an apology! As I watched this video, sitting here completely enthralled with size and authenticity of your creation, you came to the part where you had a problem whit the DPUs in the helix. I thought "He's got all this equipment and he doesn't even suspect that one can alter the BackEMF to address this". And then you state that you'll have to address BEMF and I was reminded, once again, to quit jumping to conclusions! Then you state it's hard to do. What's so hard about clicking a few buttons on your laptop? 😇
Of course, if you modify a unit to run as a DPU, youll most likely have to change it back to run it alone or as a lead unit. I see you're using Digitrax, You can control two consists at the same time. How about making your DPUs a separate consist and then you can, if you think you're good enough, throttle the DPUs back while in the helix. Of course I'm just shaking your cage a bit, all in fun.
Bottom line is I'm impressed(no) amazed(no) astounded(no) shocked(yes - shocked) by what you've done. I wish I were close enough to wrangle an invitation to see your setup in person.
No apology needed. Glad you enjoyed the video.
GREAT JOB BIGEST TRAIN ON A LAYOUT I EVER SEEN THANK YOU I LOVED IT GOING TO WATCH AGAIN THANKS AGAIN😊
Glad you enjoyed it