I just saw Bob rip around a 5 inch quad with a freakin 2S battery... [insert that DeNiro gif from Goodfellas of him smiling and wagging his finger] 🤣 Amazing stuff, brother.
Thanks for the innovation and designs Bob, you keep pushing the industry forward and thinking it seems. Been enjoying Tommy’s build series and design philosophy videos as well on his journey to sub 250 gram build. You two keep it up 👍🤘👊
This is exciting. Laws and restrictions aside, the challenge of building something sub 250, that still has all of the capabilities we've come to know and love, that's just fun. I really look forward to seeing what you come up with!
I floss daily now. Thank you for your persistence. Hearing, on a regular basis, someone inform you of the importance of flossing is tons more effective than your normal dentist pestering you a couple times a year. I didnt realize that the clean feeling I had after the dentist visit was because the flossing rather than the rest of the cleaning. Now I get that feeling daily. I remember you saying at one point that if you had to choose one or the other, flossing would be your choice. That stuck in my head and now I can realize the truth in that statement. Anyway, thank you. 🙏
Table of Contents: 00:00 - Intro 00:37 - 2S flight video 02:16 - Thoughts on 250g rules 03:58 - 2S performance explanation 04:30 - Throttle boost needed? 05:08 - Enough voltage for a given motor size? 07:30 - Motor sizes for 5" 09:48 - Battery options 11:40 - 3S flight performance 13:03 - 6S recommendations 14:40 - The possible future of 250g 15:40 - This particular frame design Links to things: The 2203/4 motors (available in T mount for less weight): bit.ly/3oJQBN2 The new 5" motor: bit.ly/368jFGK The new Baby tooth motor: bit.ly/2UlySPA Vista + Nebula pro: bit.ly/2YbqqDq The AIO board that's been consistently performing pretty well: bit.ly/3o9MWHz Some really special new batteries (read descriptions): 6S 1250mah 130C: bit.ly/2NynIG8 5S 1550mah 120C: bit.ly/3qSHAlL Music: Udachi - Boogie oogie th-cam.com/users/udachinyc Stay tuned to www.FPVCycle.com. We've been working extremely hard on a bunch of new things. ▼Join the FB group for more discussion: FPVCycle - Kabab FPV facebook.com/groups/379155946182689/ ▼ Tips? Patreon: bit.ly/2oGLP9b $1/mo from 1/4 of my subscribers will make me almost quit my job. Thank you -PayPal: www.paypal.me/kababfpv -Bitcoin: 1E4XZXoD4rS6MYWVWuenY7Kw2M1YgyNpoQ -Nano: xrb_1188ek5bd7tb9kw67asnp9o65byuoaxbtpxuznx1ribf75x78awywmakj55f -ETH: 0xD067F93811f2eC31CB1928901002dfdf9A492EF5 -LTC: La2KWYAjp4VT2Lq2M76pbjzXWvRyjpfCtG
I been building sub 250g builds before they was even popular! For a year in half its been many different configurations and now its starting to get a little easier now because of the verity of motors & Aio boards that has come out lately. But they still a lot of room for improvements. And still not a lot of frames available...Thanks for sharing
Today I was looking into lots of options for building myself a 3" sub250g, just due to the new regulations, and when I though I had it sorted out, I see this XD, .. Looking forwards for your next video, and your top mounting frame!
Hi Bob WoW that's awesome. I have been trying to get a new quad under the 250gm and fly like a rocket. Thanks for the information and video on your 5in quad.
Can’t wait to see what u come up with. I really love the idea of a 3s analog 5” quad. I’m probably the only one in the hobby that can care less about carrying a go pro, I fly for the enjoyment of the moment . My life is way to busy to review footage and edit it for TH-cam. That almost feels like another hobby. Then again if I didn’t have 3 kids I’m sure I’d find the time .
Really looking forward to that top mounted thing. Thanks so much that you make just EVERYTHING in this industry so much better. Oh yea and btw, is the board the last part to complete the babytooth? Im itching to build one😂😂
There is an argument for 4s packs... but it comes into play with when you put them into series and make 8s packs. Or even 8s4p 18650 and have an 80mph Xclass drone that can fly for more than 15 minutes... Comes in under 250g naturally.
You'll give up over a minute of flight time by running a ~250g thing on 6S. You'll gain maybe 10% performance for that minute loss. 1 minute out of a 3-4min flight or 1.5min off a cruising flight of ~5-7min. Quite significant
@@Kabab hmm i cruise 18 mins with a 6S 1100 50c HV(130 gr) with flywoo 6S(naked vista + naked gopro 8) ,no other lipo battery gives me that time. 4S? dont exist a lipo 130 gr giving 6000 mah+
Going to sub 250g feels like going retro. Started with zmr250 frame, 1806 motors on 3s! Nice to look back and see how modern electronics have gotten smaller, lighter and more reliable.
I've been telling guys since the powerpick was released that the 2203 motors with Gemfan 5125s running on those 3s 1100 packs is an amazing combo. With the 3450 kv motors I found over time that I preferred Gemfan's 4023 prop and a 4s 850 pack even more.
Motor size is something that I can't quite get my head around. I usually look at current and voltage rating, and KV for my intended prop size. I can't internalize what a wide or tall motor would do, especially with my upcoming build which is rather... unique. 2-blade 4 inch on a small-yet-chunky frame with the goal of maximum fly time. But looking for motors, there was like 1 or two that even fit the bill.
Generally I recommend the biggest motor that the build can support for best flight performance. For higher efficiency, you can give up flight performance and go with a smaller motor. That's the easiest way to sum it up.
maximum flight time? use 4 18650 batteries. Lithium ion NCR or INR chemestry has almost double the energy density of even the best "LiPos", but their construction limits the current capability, they can't dissipate heat efficiency and have a small copper tab connecting the jellyroll to the case and cap
Motor design is a tricky subject and you would probably need some real expensive finite element analysis software to model and simulate different designs. But in general you want stator volume, I'm not going to get into the details of field excitation, magnetic flux, core saturation and hysterysis, skin effect and copper losses, trapezoidal vs sinisoidal EMF, etc etc.
Volume = power Tall and thin = efficient a high speeds, low torque Short and fat = efficient at slow speeds, high torque In practice this relates to: short fat motors are more efficient in general (can drive larger props easier, which is more efficient). Tall and thin motors will give a higher top speed. Large volume gets you to top speed faster.
@@georgedowning1803 The design of the motor still matters, a wider motor has smaller magnets, which means less permanently excited flux. naturally this tends to increase kV (field weakening) Also the cross-sectional area of each pole is reduced, so the maximum flux is reduced, which would be contrary to the popular believe or misconception that wider motors can offer greater torque. I haven't don't the math but I suspect the 2 things cancel each other out. kT (Torque constant) and kE (we know kE as KV) are the same, just inversely proportional. These parameters that relate torque to current and RPM to voltage, respectively. Maximum RPM is limited by maximum voltage you can provide or the ESC's can tolerate when with regen. I think torque is limited by a variety of factors, such as the strength of the magnets, cross-sectional area of the core for each pole, the number of magnet/poles, assuming enough current-turns to saturate the core, and the diameter of the motor (the obvious mechanical advantage of larger moment arm). TL;DR motors are hard!
The problem with the 250g Rule is not only the weight but here in the EU the quads also need to be slower than 19 m/s or 68 km/h in order to get the sub 250g benefits. Therefore even my 2s toothpick probably falls under the same category as my 700g 5".
I was afraid to strip the Vista too, but it's actually really easy and saves a ton of weight and stack height. After doing the first one, they take about 10 minutes to de-case.
Just ordered a speedybee f7 mini stack for my floss 210 hopefully it has enough juice for a 5inch. Will test it on 4s then 6s with pid limited at 66% on 4s motors
Awesome video Bob. I'm having serious trouble tuning my 4" fouride on betaflight 4.2. I was receiving flutters on sharp stick inputs on the default tune and in extreme cases the quad would do a death roll. I don't have rpm filter enabled. Is this a filter issue or is it something I can fix by tweaking the P and D gain?
GNB has really out done just about any other company with the quality of their cells & just ordered 3 of the iFlight H7 AIO boards so really nice to hear you mention that they are solid, I'm starting to be less skeptical of AIO's 😅
I enjoyed the motor discussion. Do you have more content to share on why larger cells can support higher amp draw? Such as 1100mah 3S does better than 650mah 6S? Can't wait for the next sub 250g video.
it's a factor of how much surface area there is to pull the electrons from. More capacity means more surface area means more current means more power. C rating....
To understand why lower voltage doesn't punch as well is because to hit the same power you need more current and components are mostly current limited, not as voltage limited. One thing that always surprises many people is that wire gauge is about current, not about voltage. Voltage limitations just have to do with keeping things from shorting
This quad in general is pretty low current. If I thickened the wires on this particular setup I would probably get a little more performance out of 2S but not enough to make up the difference with 3S. Whatever is happening, 2S is just too low for this general setup
IDK about your 6s commentary on this one. I don't have any experience myself, but the single most agile and powerful flying quad I've ever seen was Quadmovr's ultralight 5" with 2004 1700/1800kv with these props on 6s. Also, I feel like I agree with your original thoughts mentioned in this video on the 250g rule. If I could change it without changing the 250g part, I'd make it so that limit is only including permanent fixtures to the quad. AKA, everything soldered on. So no props, batteries, or recording camera since those are honest to goodness variables.
Looks like a promising 250g platform...before curbing anything or moving up to 3S-4S, maybe try changing the 'Motor Protocol' to MULTISHOT, for the sacrifice of 'Turtle Mode' but gains much torque, and responsiveness...next, set 'Gyro Update Frequency' to 4 kHz and 'PID loop' to 1.33kHz...also, move 'Throttle MID' to .75 and boost to 9. Might also help to set 'RC Smoothing' to Interpolation, 'RC Interpolation' to Auto, and 'Channels smoothed' to RPYT. Most importantly, dont forget to change PPM Min Throttle to 1000, Center to 1500, Max to 2000 and then calibrate ESC's...this almost ALWAYS helps me resurrect an under powered rig, aziz'am.😜
@@Kabab true, aziz...but de kid in me, still vould love for you to tweak de tune/setting just for comparison/shits and giggles, lol...then send again on 2S, and 3S. 😁
My thoughts with this is that it's awesome to experiments and trying new things, but how is the battery sag on the 2s packs? A mainly fly 4s packs on my freestyle rigs and I've 'dabbled' with 6s a few times. And noticed the sag on 4s is a lot more than on 6s. I get that the packs kebab is using are top line, but it still must be there? I think I might look into sub 250 in the future
Now I wanna try and build a lightweight build with your 2204 motors since I already have those. Just gotta figure out the frame and esc amp rating. But I don't think I'm gonna stick to that 250 limit but atleast close to it.
Lets hope good stabilized HD cameras get smaller and lighter as well in the next 2 years. We can hope for solid state batteries but I doubt it. Or maybe money being spent on R&D is spent on lobbying and that gets the FAA to change their rules.
Any ideas of an fpvcycle 2004? Seems like that's the right motor for sub 250g running 3S/4S, and I'd be interested to see your take on it. I've been working on parting out a 4" sub 250g build, and as much as I love the idea of having your 2204 motors on it, even the T mount version seemed just a little bit to heavy for me to make it work.
So I have made a 250g quad , 1607 2850kv motors, and the thibgs screams, running 4s, get around 6-7mins, quad weight in around 147g mark tried 3s li ion pack and got nearly 20mins of chill flying
That motor is 16% bigger than the motor I've got on mine and will weigh considerably more. It should be extremely fast but your frame must also be extremely skinny and it's analog. I'm looking forward to trying 3S lion on my quad to see what it'll do
You can only ask for so much out of a stator before its saturated. I've tried to wind old plane motors to oblivion & there comes a point in (excessive) current draw where you're not getting any more torque out of it, adding more kv only makes things worse.
Hi Bob, any idea when you'll have more aio toothpick boards in stock? I'm hoping to build another 1S babytooth as soon as possible but I'm not sure what other boards I could use as a suitable substitute.
The screws holding the heatsink on vista is supposed to be the same distance as whoop board i heard... So you could stack them if you install longer screws in the vista and use them also for fc... Or just go naked vista...
@@Kabab have a look on mr shutterbugs youtube. 3inch baby tooth with vista. Forward to time 9:20... Looks like it works ok with minor adjustment on hole size. I think you should recognize the motors he uses. But he complained about short wires instead of to long :-) tempted to do a bild like that but haven't clicked buy on dji stuff just yet... Anyways it's been out of stock in EU for some time now...
Shorter motor wires will have less resistance and deliver higher voltage to the motors (less voltage drop through the wires), but it really only makes a difference if the resistance of the wires is a significant portion of the total resistance of the windings.
Could you reduce the weight enough to run it on 3s? Is it possible that if you shortened the wires there would be a slight reduction in voltage drop? Just a thought. When you are trying to milk a mouse maybe every little drop matters.
Great stuff... You watch, they'll be a load of sub 250's come out of China with these specs. Looked fast enough and due to weight, looked like it had a tone of grip. I have a fairly fresh 4s 5inch race build with 2306 2650kv motors on... Weighs 320g dry weight (no battery) are these motors suitable????
what second quad would you recommend that is under 175$? I have been flying the normal tiny hawk 2 for about 3 to 4 months. Im looking for a quad with unguarded props and have the ability to fly at parks without annoying people. I really want to build a 3s or 2s toothpick but I have no idea how to solder lol. Are there any solid bnf toothpicks out there I could look at that are 2s or 3s?
Just to make sure: On that build with 3450kv and GNB 3S 1100, you would have more runtime in freestyle flight than a 1725kv version of that motor [I know that isn't offered] and a 6S GNB 6S 550mah (which is the same weight)? If long range cruising, I'm sure the 3S would win out.
Why don’t we try using the voltage more for 5”. It seems like the evolution in finding what motor size and voltage work together would have been quicker if we just pushed everything, including voltage, to the “max”. I remember when 2206 motors were for 6” props only. Gosh, if we only saw what we are doing now.
So I really want to build a sub 250 4”-5” freestyle. I do have a Fouride in 4” & 5” as well as the Shocker UL. All of them are running your 2203 motors. I love the lighter class of quads. How long do you think it will be before there is a product for purchase? Do you recommend the 2203/4 2800kv(about to make a large order) and I don’t want things to be out of stock when I want to build it. BTW I do like to run 5S 850s on the 5” Fouride when carrying a GoPro Session(which is most of the time) It flys sooo nice. I actually put a naked Air Unit in the 4” Fouride and it dropped it to Vista weight. I basically stripped it down JUST to cram it in the slammed frame design. It works perfectly.
I'm hoping to have a frame available shortly after cny if everything works out right. The 2204 we currently have in 2800kv and 3s is reslly great but if people really want the 250g thing then I'm gonna work on redesigning a 2203 for tht purpose. 2203 is enough but 2204 is better. It's actually 2203.2
@@Kabab Awesome! I was going to order another set of which are now of course 2203/4. Would the 2203 3000kv be better than the 2203/4’s as far as weight. I could just swap the motors on one of my Ultralights. BTW this Nano LR thing is starting to be talked about. I JUST put my TP4 up and went some pretty crazy distances(could have gone farther). This thing can be crazy efficient with the 4800kv 1303‘s from Amax. Of course I went way above the 400 limit to keep good video. Speaking of video of the DVR recorded in black-and-white for some reason damn Fat Sharks. I’m going to post it on your page. I wish it was in color. It was really pretty.
These low cell big prop light weight drones are intriguing to me. Could get me back into fpv more. I think I will build one of your 3" 1s quads. And find out. Been out it and all of the new stuff for a while. Are my fatshark hd3 still good enough these days? Things have changed since I have been out of the hobby full time for the past year and half. Seriously I found a build kit from raceflight I never put together frame, fc, esc motors everything, I didn't know raceflight wasn't a thing anymore. Can I still use that kit? Is it worthless? Any help would be appreciated. now everyone hates frsky things just seem way different.
Ugg the last second tease... It's a race to the smallest, quietest, safest, highest performing DJI vista build and it will rule the world. haha. the two camps seem to be, To carry a camera or not . Max payload and performance under 250g or smallest lightest most responsive DJI vessel
Oh and do you have a good 2s like starter charger? I don't have a real charger yet and I want to put a xt30 on my tinyhawk 2 race with the gnb 450 and see how that goes.
The charger is coming after CNY. I've also come up with a way to get 2S on this to work really shockingly well but I'm still not sure it's reasonable to go with 2S ok such a big quad.
The 4" long range things have motors that are way too small. They cannot fly very well no matter what you do with a motor that small. Run a 3" prop on those motors with 3s or maybe 4s and it'll perform much better but have less flight time.
You mentioned there aren't any good 20x20 stacks to go with the vista - have you tried the new 20x20 Flywoo GOKU HDF745 40A AIO yet? At least on paper it has some decent specs and their gear has been very reliable in my experience.
@@Kabab Sorry I shouldn't have used the word stack(force of habit I guess). The one I'm taking about is a single board AIO: flywoo.net/products/goku-hd745-evo-40a-aio-bl_32-dji-plus-play
Did you ever go anywhere with this approach? I like the aesthetics of the frame (looks a bit like a combination of molar and powerpick). Also the 2S idea is interesting. But seems like you abandoned this direction to go with a more traditional but ultralight 5" freestyle frame and higher voltage instead. Too bad, this looked so interesting!
As often very nice video. Thanks so much! At first I was not certain to read : 2S and 3000kv... Micros with 5000kv and 2S are slooooow. Can we even compare kvs on smaller motor sizes ? By the way, could you please crash the frame? Last point: very nice matties ;)
Flies awesome! Only that you gotta put at least a insta360go onto it if you want nice flight footage (or very least a heavier air unit) sooo... I kinda don‘t get the point. 😐 And naked GoPros are too fragile for freestyle of course.
I'm a dentist. I take out teeth all day and put in implants. If people would just brush and floss regularly they can save themselves a LOT of pain, money and mental anguish. Just trying to help out.
@@Kabab Ah thanks, I agree with you whole hardily with taking care of your teeth. You are a true pinonear in this FPV hobby for sure! Thank you for all you do!
Yay, I love that you have taken an interest in the sub250g 5”. I’m excited to se what you will come up with! Keep innovating and stay safe.
I just saw Bob rip around a 5 inch quad with a freakin 2S battery...
[insert that DeNiro gif from Goodfellas of him smiling and wagging his finger]
🤣
Amazing stuff, brother.
Thanks for the innovation and designs Bob, you keep pushing the industry forward and thinking it seems. Been enjoying Tommy’s build series and design philosophy videos as well on his journey to sub 250 gram build. You two keep it up 👍🤘👊
This video should be titled "Curb your motor wire length" 😂😂😂love your projects and opinion videos btw!
okay!
HAHAHA he did it! That's amazing. Gotta agree with you tintin, Kabab is among my favorite youtubers in terms of honest and entertaining information
Awesome 😂
Always love the tunes and very well thought out concept's.
This is exciting. Laws and restrictions aside, the challenge of building something sub 250, that still has all of the capabilities we've come to know and love, that's just fun. I really look forward to seeing what you come up with!
I floss daily now. Thank you for your persistence. Hearing, on a regular basis, someone inform you of the importance of flossing is tons more effective than your normal dentist pestering you a couple times a year. I didnt realize that the clean feeling I had after the dentist visit was because the flossing rather than the rest of the cleaning. Now I get that feeling daily. I remember you saying at one point that if you had to choose one or the other, flossing would be your choice. That stuck in my head and now I can realize the truth in that statement. Anyway, thank you. 🙏
yep, flossing is more important than brushing usually. Eating an apple will clean the sides of your teeth too but nothing really cleans between
It's crazy how well that flies on 2S. Can't wait to see where this 250 gram class goes
Table of Contents:
00:00 - Intro
00:37 - 2S flight video
02:16 - Thoughts on 250g rules
03:58 - 2S performance explanation
04:30 - Throttle boost needed?
05:08 - Enough voltage for a given motor size?
07:30 - Motor sizes for 5"
09:48 - Battery options
11:40 - 3S flight performance
13:03 - 6S recommendations
14:40 - The possible future of 250g
15:40 - This particular frame design
Links to things:
The 2203/4 motors (available in T mount for less weight): bit.ly/3oJQBN2
The new 5" motor: bit.ly/368jFGK
The new Baby tooth motor: bit.ly/2UlySPA
Vista + Nebula pro: bit.ly/2YbqqDq
The AIO board that's been consistently performing pretty well: bit.ly/3o9MWHz
Some really special new batteries (read descriptions):
6S 1250mah 130C: bit.ly/2NynIG8
5S 1550mah 120C: bit.ly/3qSHAlL
Music: Udachi - Boogie oogie
th-cam.com/users/udachinyc
Stay tuned to www.FPVCycle.com. We've been working extremely hard on a bunch of new things.
▼Join the FB group for more discussion: FPVCycle - Kabab FPV
facebook.com/groups/379155946182689/
▼ Tips?
Patreon: bit.ly/2oGLP9b
$1/mo from 1/4 of my subscribers will make me almost quit my job. Thank you
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I been building sub 250g builds before they was even popular! For a year in half its been many different configurations and now its starting to get a little easier now because of the verity of motors & Aio boards that has come out lately. But they still a lot of room for improvements. And still not a lot of frames available...Thanks for sharing
Today I was looking into lots of options for building myself a 3" sub250g, just due to the new regulations, and when I though I had it sorted out, I see this XD, .. Looking forwards for your next video, and your top mounting frame!
It's really super special. I even impressed myself with the concept I came up with
Hi Bob WoW that's awesome. I have been trying to get a new quad under the 250gm and fly like a rocket. Thanks for the information and video on your 5in quad.
Genius , I do not think ppl truly know how much u put into our hobby
It’s so much fun hearing your ideas & your enthusiasm! I’m just as excited for my first build, “Project Babytooth!”
Nice flying....I need to get back into this
Dude, the 3s was SOOO nice and can't wait to see the top mount...just wow.
Gréât super retro design and amazing performances from an ultralight 5 inch ! Please propose this frame on fpv cycle ! Great job as usual !
Can’t wait to see what u come up with. I really love the idea of a 3s analog 5” quad. I’m probably the only one in the hobby that can care less about carrying a go pro, I fly for the enjoyment of the moment . My life is way to busy to review footage and edit it for TH-cam. That almost feels like another hobby. Then again if I didn’t have 3 kids I’m sure I’d find the time .
Great build, thanks for sharing! 🖐️🤠
Sick 2s performance... And I love the soundtrack😋😍😍😍😍
You my sir are a true pioneer of fpv!!
Best thing ive seen all year
Really looking forward to that top mounted thing. Thanks so much that you make just EVERYTHING in this industry so much better. Oh yea and btw, is the board the last part to complete the babytooth? Im itching to build one😂😂
So 1S or 6S only! And easy to reuse exploded 6S batteries with 1S quad for total destruction =)
There is an argument for 4s packs... but it comes into play with when you put them into series and make 8s packs. Or even 8s4p 18650 and have an 80mph Xclass drone that can fly for more than 15 minutes...
Comes in under 250g naturally.
You'll give up over a minute of flight time by running a ~250g thing on 6S. You'll gain maybe 10% performance for that minute loss. 1 minute out of a 3-4min flight or 1.5min off a cruising flight of ~5-7min. Quite significant
@@Kabab 10% faster lap times than the competition is why I fly 6S. I might have to try your new 6S motors. I do like the prop nut VS the T-mounts.
@@Kabab hmm i cruise 18 mins with a 6S 1100 50c HV(130 gr) with flywoo 6S(naked vista + naked gopro 8) ,no other lipo battery gives me that time. 4S? dont exist a lipo 130 gr giving 6000 mah+
@@damfastfpv8016 well if you race then sure. But if you're not a racer then it's usually a negative to have more voltage than you need
I thought this was impossible. Thanks mr. Kabab!
Look’s so cool really nice video 😉🍻
Damn... How did i miss that video ....Oh wait took a 2 months break ...things get better and better ! Gonna try it soon !
intresting mount design i was thinking of making a stretch x racer that had two 20x20 squished but going with the frame instead so a limo stretch x
your flying skill wow!!
looks cool with the FC and vista side by side like an old-school motorbike boxer engine.
Going to sub 250g feels like going retro. Started with zmr250 frame, 1806 motors on 3s! Nice to look back and see how modern electronics have gotten smaller, lighter and more reliable.
Definitely is. We're going back in time with new electionics
I've been telling guys since the powerpick was released that the 2203 motors with Gemfan 5125s running on those 3s 1100 packs is an amazing combo. With the 3450 kv motors I found over time that I preferred Gemfan's 4023 prop and a 4s 850 pack even more.
GNB is working on some new cells. The new 850 4S should be really good
Motor size is something that I can't quite get my head around. I usually look at current and voltage rating, and KV for my intended prop size. I can't internalize what a wide or tall motor would do, especially with my upcoming build which is rather... unique. 2-blade 4 inch on a small-yet-chunky frame with the goal of maximum fly time. But looking for motors, there was like 1 or two that even fit the bill.
Generally I recommend the biggest motor that the build can support for best flight performance. For higher efficiency, you can give up flight performance and go with a smaller motor. That's the easiest way to sum it up.
maximum flight time? use 4 18650 batteries. Lithium ion NCR or INR chemestry has almost double the energy density of even the best "LiPos", but their construction limits the current capability, they can't dissipate heat efficiency and have a small copper tab connecting the jellyroll to the case and cap
Motor design is a tricky subject and you would probably need some real expensive finite element analysis software to model and simulate different designs. But in general you want stator volume, I'm not going to get into the details of field excitation, magnetic flux, core saturation and hysterysis, skin effect and copper losses, trapezoidal vs sinisoidal EMF, etc etc.
Volume = power
Tall and thin = efficient a high speeds, low torque
Short and fat = efficient at slow speeds, high torque
In practice this relates to:
short fat motors are more efficient in general (can drive larger props easier, which is more efficient).
Tall and thin motors will give a higher top speed.
Large volume gets you to top speed faster.
@@georgedowning1803 The design of the motor still matters, a wider motor has smaller magnets, which means less permanently excited flux. naturally this tends to increase kV (field weakening) Also the cross-sectional area of each pole is reduced, so the maximum flux is reduced, which would be contrary to the popular believe or misconception that wider motors can offer greater torque. I haven't don't the math but I suspect the 2 things cancel each other out. kT (Torque constant) and kE (we know kE as KV) are the same, just inversely proportional. These parameters that relate torque to current and RPM to voltage, respectively. Maximum RPM is limited by maximum voltage you can provide or the ESC's can tolerate when with regen. I think torque is limited by a variety of factors, such as the strength of the magnets, cross-sectional area of the core for each pole, the number of magnet/poles, assuming enough current-turns to saturate the core, and the diameter of the motor (the obvious mechanical advantage of larger moment arm).
TL;DR motors are hard!
Great flight.. 2S…. Wow
Possibly mounting the vista and aio fc vertical side by side bottom to bottom would be cool
The problem with the 250g Rule is not only the weight but here in the EU the quads also need to be slower than 19 m/s or 68 km/h in order to get the sub 250g benefits. Therefore even my 2s toothpick probably falls under the same category as my 700g 5".
Well this is definitely going faster than 70km/h 😅
I have to build this!!
I was afraid to strip the Vista too, but it's actually really easy and saves a ton of weight and stack height. After doing the first one, they take about 10 minutes to de-case.
Yeah it's not difficult but I'd also like to not require people to mess with it
Just ordered a speedybee f7 mini stack for my floss 210 hopefully it has enough juice for a 5inch. Will test it on 4s then 6s with pid limited at 66% on 4s motors
If you decide to continue this quad class I think it would be a good idea to mount the vista and AIO vertically next to each other
Yeah I don't like stacking them. For sure will be side by side or in a line. So much more convenient and it isn't super tall
I really like the aesthetic of the flat motors but I don't think they are the ideal for 4/6s right? They look so cooool though
Awesome video Bob. I'm having serious trouble tuning my 4" fouride on betaflight 4.2. I was receiving flutters on sharp stick inputs on the default tune and in extreme cases the quad would do a death roll. I don't have rpm filter enabled. Is this a filter issue or is it something I can fix by tweaking the P and D gain?
Try emu. I can't use BF anymore
GNB has really out done just about any other company with the quality of their cells & just ordered 3 of the iFlight H7 AIO boards so really nice to hear you mention that they are solid, I'm starting to be less skeptical of AIO's 😅
They better be solid for the price tag.
I enjoyed the motor discussion. Do you have more content to share on why larger cells can support higher amp draw? Such as 1100mah 3S does better than 650mah 6S? Can't wait for the next sub 250g video.
it's a factor of how much surface area there is to pull the electrons from. More capacity means more surface area means more current means more power. C rating....
Bob, where's that track from? Banging track. The link in your description doesn't have it listed.
It's new he just finished it yesterday
@@Kabab he?
To understand why lower voltage doesn't punch as well is because to hit the same power you need more current and components are mostly current limited, not as voltage limited. One thing that always surprises many people is that wire gauge is about current, not about voltage. Voltage limitations just have to do with keeping things from shorting
This quad in general is pretty low current. If I thickened the wires on this particular setup I would probably get a little more performance out of 2S but not enough to make up the difference with 3S. Whatever is happening, 2S is just too low for this general setup
Great looking video and wow it moves fast! Good job on controlling of the drone, looks good from above. Keep up the flying, thank you for sharing
IDK about your 6s commentary on this one. I don't have any experience myself, but the single most agile and powerful flying quad I've ever seen was Quadmovr's ultralight 5" with 2004 1700/1800kv with these props on 6s.
Also, I feel like I agree with your original thoughts mentioned in this video on the 250g rule. If I could change it without changing the 250g part, I'd make it so that limit is only including permanent fixtures to the quad. AKA, everything soldered on. So no props, batteries, or recording camera since those are honest to goodness variables.
Looks like a promising 250g platform...before curbing anything or moving up to 3S-4S, maybe try changing the 'Motor Protocol' to MULTISHOT, for the sacrifice of 'Turtle Mode' but gains much torque, and responsiveness...next, set 'Gyro Update Frequency' to 4 kHz and 'PID loop' to 1.33kHz...also, move 'Throttle MID' to .75 and boost to 9. Might also help to set 'RC Smoothing' to Interpolation, 'RC Interpolation' to Auto, and 'Channels smoothed' to RPYT. Most importantly, dont forget to change PPM Min Throttle to 1000, Center to 1500, Max to 2000 and then calibrate ESC's...this almost ALWAYS helps me resurrect an under powered rig, aziz'am.😜
On 2S it's just gonna be underpowered no matter what the settings are. 3S is really the way to go I think.
@@Kabab true, aziz...but de kid in me, still vould love for you to tweak de tune/setting just for comparison/shits and giggles, lol...then send again on 2S, and 3S. 😁
@@Kabab ...i know you're busy so just get me the dump, i'll make the changes and get it back to you...voilà. 🐱🏍
My thoughts with this is that it's awesome to experiments and trying new things, but how is the battery sag on the 2s packs? A mainly fly 4s packs on my freestyle rigs and I've 'dabbled' with 6s a few times. And noticed the sag on 4s is a lot more than on 6s. I get that the packs kebab is using are top line, but it still must be there? I think I might look into sub 250 in the future
There's really minimal to just about zero sag on the 2s pack however that 3s overall performs better.
Pretty impressive quad, Bob!!! 😮
I bet if you cut the motor wires it's going to be 250g on point. 😬
Anyway, stay safe there! 🖖😊
Now I wanna try and build a lightweight build with your 2204 motors since I already have those. Just gotta figure out the frame and esc amp rating. But I don't think I'm gonna stick to that 250 limit but atleast close to it.
Yep that's what I think we'll all do. Not quite 250 but close. Like sub 300
Lets hope good stabilized HD cameras get smaller and lighter as well in the next 2 years. We can hope for solid state batteries but I doubt it. Or maybe money being spent on R&D is spent on lobbying and that gets the FAA to change their rules.
Any ideas of an fpvcycle 2004? Seems like that's the right motor for sub 250g running 3S/4S, and I'd be interested to see your take on it.
I've been working on parting out a 4" sub 250g build, and as much as I love the idea of having your 2204 motors on it, even the T mount version seemed just a little bit to heavy for me to make it work.
The t mount 2204 is gonna be optimal really but I'm gonna develop a 2203 to be lower weight because I can't stand the T mount.
what about the babytooth motor on 4" (hoping atleast 3S cause thats the batteries i have)
Works fine but the performance is quite pokey
does anyone know what props they are? look great!
German 5125
So I have made a 250g quad , 1607 2850kv motors, and the thibgs screams, running 4s, get around 6-7mins, quad weight in around 147g mark tried 3s li ion pack and got nearly 20mins of chill flying
That motor is 16% bigger than the motor I've got on mine and will weigh considerably more. It should be extremely fast but your frame must also be extremely skinny and it's analog. I'm looking forward to trying 3S lion on my quad to see what it'll do
You can only ask for so much out of a stator before its saturated. I've tried to wind old plane motors to oblivion & there comes a point in (excessive) current draw where you're not getting any more torque out of it, adding more kv only makes things worse.
Hi Bob, any idea when you'll have more aio toothpick boards in stock? I'm hoping to build another 1S babytooth as soon as possible but I'm not sure what other boards I could use as a suitable substitute.
After cny the full batch is going into production
If you already have parts, we still have some boards left. You can place an order and ask for the 1s board to be added in the order note
@@Kabab Fantastic, thanks for letting me know!
The screws holding the heatsink on vista is supposed to be the same distance as whoop board i heard... So you could stack them if you install longer screws in the vista and use them also for fc... Or just go naked vista...
I think I tried that a while back and it didn't work out
@@Kabab have a look on mr shutterbugs youtube. 3inch baby tooth with vista. Forward to time 9:20... Looks like it works ok with minor adjustment on hole size. I think you should recognize the motors he uses. But he complained about short wires instead of to long :-) tempted to do a bild like that but haven't clicked buy on dji stuff just yet... Anyways it's been out of stock in EU for some time now...
Shorter motor wires will have less resistance and deliver higher voltage to the motors (less voltage drop through the wires), but it really only makes a difference if the resistance of the wires is a significant portion of the total resistance of the windings.
That's for sure :-). The next build will have shorter wires.
Did you find any flight or tuning issues having the weight off balance like that?
It's 100% default. Zero tuning. Flies great
you gonna get the new moonlight props?
they're on the way. just haven't had a chance to make a video about them
Could you reduce the weight enough to run it on 3s? Is it possible that if you shortened the wires there would be a slight reduction in voltage drop? Just a thought. When you are trying to milk a mouse maybe every little drop matters.
na it wouldn't make any voltage difference but I'd absolutely shorten all the battery wires because none of that length is needed
The resistance losses are negligible but the reduction in weight would have some effect.
On 3s it‘s a beast
Great stuff... You watch, they'll be a load of sub 250's come out of China with these specs. Looked fast enough and due to weight, looked like it had a tone of grip. I have a fairly fresh 4s 5inch race build with 2306 2650kv motors on... Weighs 320g dry weight (no battery) are these motors suitable????
yeah these motors at up to ~475g AUW are fantastic. the current 2800kv ones on 3S are excellent
What kind of frame is that? Is it available for purchase? Or ir not, is it possible to get the plans to cut the carbon locally?
This is just a test frame. It's not available and probably won't be but there is another version coming that is way nicer.
"Needs more voltage" - impedance. Higher voltage increases the current faster and resists impedance better.
That's easy to say but hard to understand.
@@Kabab angry pixie ramp-up time?
You’ve come along way from micros, hopefully we’ll see -250g x class next. Seriously though this is impressive for below 250g
🙈 250g 13" would be insane!
@@Kabab I'd settle for sub250 9" 😉
what second quad would you recommend that is under 175$? I have been flying the normal tiny hawk 2 for about 3 to 4 months. Im looking for a quad with unguarded props and have the ability to fly at parks without annoying people. I really want to build a 3s or 2s toothpick but I have no idea how to solder lol. Are there any solid bnf toothpicks out there I could look at that are 2s or 3s?
3s TP3. We will hopefully have motors in another 2weeks
@@Kabab thanks, Ill take a look at that.
I will say your motors do look sweet.
Love what you are doing 😍❣️ don't forget to floss
Just to make sure: On that build with 3450kv and GNB 3S 1100, you would have more runtime in freestyle flight than a 1725kv version of that motor [I know that isn't offered] and a 6S GNB 6S 550mah (which is the same weight)? If long range cruising, I'm sure the 3S would win out.
there's no point to 6S on light platforms.
Why don’t we try using the voltage more for 5”. It seems like the evolution in finding what motor size and voltage work together would have been quicker if we just pushed everything, including voltage, to the “max”. I remember when 2206 motors were for 6” props only. Gosh, if we only saw what we are doing now.
Yes Sir.
So I really want to build a sub 250 4”-5” freestyle. I do have a Fouride in 4” & 5” as well as the Shocker UL. All of them are running your 2203 motors. I love the lighter class of quads. How long do you think it will be before there is a product for purchase? Do you recommend the 2203/4 2800kv(about to make a large order) and I don’t want things to be out of stock when I want to build it. BTW I do like to run 5S 850s on the 5” Fouride when carrying a GoPro Session(which is most of the time) It flys sooo nice. I actually put a naked Air Unit in the 4” Fouride and it dropped it to Vista weight. I basically stripped it down JUST to cram it in the slammed frame design. It works perfectly.
I'm hoping to have a frame available shortly after cny if everything works out right. The 2204 we currently have in 2800kv and 3s is reslly great but if people really want the 250g thing then I'm gonna work on redesigning a 2203 for tht purpose. 2203 is enough but 2204 is better. It's actually 2203.2
@@Kabab Awesome! I was going to order another set of which are now of course 2203/4. Would the 2203 3000kv be better than the 2203/4’s as far as weight. I could just swap the motors on one of my Ultralights.
BTW this Nano LR thing is starting to be talked about. I JUST put my TP4 up and went some pretty crazy distances(could have gone farther). This thing can be crazy efficient with the 4800kv 1303‘s from Amax. Of course I went way above the 400 limit to keep good video. Speaking of video of the DVR recorded in black-and-white for some reason damn Fat Sharks. I’m going to post it on your page. I wish it was in color. It was really pretty.
These low cell big prop light weight drones are intriguing to me. Could get me back into fpv more. I think I will build one of your 3" 1s quads. And find out. Been out it and all of the new stuff for a while. Are my fatshark hd3 still good enough these days? Things have changed since I have been out of the hobby full time for the past year and half. Seriously I found a build kit from raceflight I never put together frame, fc, esc motors everything, I didn't know raceflight wasn't a thing anymore. Can I still use that kit? Is it worthless? Any help would be appreciated. now everyone hates frsky things just seem way different.
raceflight has become flight 1 now
Ugg the last second tease...
It's a race to the smallest, quietest, safest, highest performing DJI vista build
and it will rule the world. haha.
the two camps seem to be, To carry a camera or not .
Max payload and performance under 250g or
smallest lightest most responsive DJI vessel
Hey bob, can you please compare the new jumper t-lite to the tbs tango 2? The t-lite seems like a great, much cheaper alternative!
Mine is arriving tomorrow so I'll see
@@Kabab soo how are your first impressions? :)
@@ValFPV it's a toy compared to the tango 2 but it's not bad either
@@Kabab Hmm guess I'm just gonna wait for the tango2 to be back in stock then.
Oh and do you have a good 2s like starter charger? I don't have a real charger yet and I want to put a xt30 on my tinyhawk 2 race with the gnb 450 and see how that goes.
The charger is coming after CNY. I've also come up with a way to get 2S on this to work really shockingly well but I'm still not sure it's reasonable to go with 2S ok such a big quad.
@@Kabab is it the tunerc thor? Because there is written tunerc on your new babytooth board.
@@Max_0578 yeah that's the one with some minor changes.
@@Kabab yooo thanks bob!
So you think all those 4" long range quads would be better on 3s?
The 4" long range things have motors that are way too small. They cannot fly very well no matter what you do with a motor that small. Run a 3" prop on those motors with 3s or maybe 4s and it'll perform much better but have less flight time.
They perform better on low kV motors and 4S. The higher voltage and lower kV helps compensate for the small motors and keeps flight times super long.
You mentioned there aren't any good 20x20 stacks to go with the vista - have you tried the new 20x20 Flywoo GOKU HDF745 40A AIO yet? At least on paper it has some decent specs and their gear has been very reliable in my experience.
Not stack. Aio. With this small and low weight might as well go with an aio
@@Kabab Sorry I shouldn't have used the word stack(force of habit I guess). The one I'm taking about is a single board AIO: flywoo.net/products/goku-hd745-evo-40a-aio-bl_32-dji-plus-play
what program you install kabab?
🤷🏻♂️
Did you ever go anywhere with this approach? I like the aesthetics of the frame (looks a bit like a combination of molar and powerpick). Also the 2S idea is interesting. But seems like you abandoned this direction to go with a more traditional but ultralight 5" freestyle frame and higher voltage instead. Too bad, this looked so interesting!
Yeah. Check out my latest video. I'm just about finishing up the design
Bob we won't be satisfied until I see you get a 5inch to run on 1S.
lol I tried but the vista only runs on 2s min
🔥🔥🔥👽🤟
You have this great ability to make me spend money at fpvcycle. Lol
It's all going back into development 🙏
what frame is it?
Just a prototype. The one that's actually gonna come is quite different. Top mount battery frame that's 39g with 15mm build height
As often very nice video. Thanks so much!
At first I was not certain to read :
2S and 3000kv... Micros with 5000kv and 2S are slooooow. Can we even compare kvs on smaller motor sizes ?
By the way, could you please crash the frame?
Last point: very nice matties ;)
I actually like the TP3 a lot with 5000kv and 2s but yeah I know what you mean
You might get better aerodynamics by mounting the vista and FC sideways. Just a thought.
Yeah definitely but in this case I'm going for convenience.
The gram of weight difference is likely a change in ambient air pressure.
That's what I was thinking. The thing inside the scale likely works on that
@@Kabab you probably have some kind of weird weather coming for it to change that much that fast.
Flies awesome! Only that you gotta put at least a insta360go onto it if you want nice flight footage (or very least a heavier air unit) sooo... I kinda don‘t get the point. 😐 And naked GoPros are too fragile for freestyle of course.
Ain’t nobody interested in my flight footage.
Soooo, what does flossing ones teeth, have to do with FPV?
I'm a dentist. I take out teeth all day and put in implants. If people would just brush and floss regularly they can save themselves a LOT of pain, money and mental anguish. Just trying to help out.
@@Kabab Ah thanks, I agree with you whole hardily with taking care of your teeth. You are a true pinonear in this FPV hobby for sure! Thank you for all you do!
Never thought I'd see 2s powered 5-inch....
Check out the Syma X5. It's a 1S powered 5" :-D
What we really need to work on is a lighter battery technology, their has to be something lighter for us
Unfortunately I don't think that's gonna happen any time soon. Maybe in 5-8yrs
Oove what ur doing man
Hard to fling the lighter ones.
Not so much with this one on 3s
Exactly yo spot on, dats what ive been saying home skillet, freakn 6s nerds....... kickn me a funky life lol
here is the thing, i dont need that,.......
but
i absolutely want it :-)
2s?! Wow