Is Head Movement TOO DANGEROUS For Muay Thai/Kickboxing?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 ม.ค. 2024
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Are you going to train your slipping for muay thai or kickboxing?
Or does it seem like too much of a risk?
I'm gonna train it, Lerdsila, Samart, Saenchai, Oley and Somrak are some of my favourite Thai boxers. Although I love your style of mixing slipping and blocking
One of my first combos that I had to learn was (orthodox):
1, 2, 3
*roll to the left*
3, 2, 3
I was a beginner when I learned this. A little hard work. But you hit some points on the head, Gabriel:
*don’t go so low, guard up, don’t lean your head forward!*
I think it’s really up to instructor discretion, because s/he should know his/her students better before deciding just plain shelling only, or try to implement slipping.
Definetly, will be training my slipping for kickboxing!
My skill level is 1 from 10 but I did notice that slipping invited kicking to the head, so I told my friend to keep his hands up while slipping. Anyway now I will watch the video.
Like my coach says, it all depends on the opponent.
I like to train it with the double end bag.
I don't understand the people who say an entire technique work. You can basically use any technique as long as you have enough experience and do it in a way that's effective in a combat sport
Exactly. We have ONE, UFC, Bellator etc,.. super high level fighers do sillyspinning moves, off-balance strikes, low-hand or no-guard stance, and it works. It's about correctly applying the technique while being acutely aware of its risks and uses.
Jean-Charles Skarbowsky posted a slipping video today and most the replies by all the TH-cam champions were saying “Don’t slip” 💀
Fundamentals, fundamentals are about being technically balance when it comes to risk/reward. Slipping, blades stance, hands low all can has huge rewards especially if the individual applies those techniques correctly. Those technique are not fundamental in MT is because the risk is wayy to big for the reward. But I respect your comment, people gotta be themselves and do what works for them at the end of the day
@@plzineedtogowayrn6353
For me, I do not do good with a regular Muay Thai base. I mostly use the stance because it's a good balance between offense and defense, but my fighting style is based around Taekwondo, so I do a lot of punches that transition into kicks. I do what every martial artist does and tries to make use of my strength. Hell, last time I sparred, I managed to pull off a front stance type of defense and a traditional Karate-type of low handed stance. It feels good to do what works for you
@@plzineedtogowayrn6353in order to move in ways that are not fundamental, you must have a strong base of fundamentals first. Or it won’t work.
Jeff Chan's head is in the next room when he kickboxes his head movement is that busy and he's a beast.
😂😂😂😂😂😂
Yes. He’s a great example that you can effectively use head movement in kickboxing. Dude is elusive as rabbit lol
Bro is shredded
I was going to comment something similar lol
JEFF FANS! @@EggplantOven
My take: Proactive head movement in Muay Thai/ kick boxing is dangerous bc your opponent can time you moving into a knee or kick. But if your headmovment is reactive when you’re only doing it when your opponent commits to a punch , it’s much harder to follow up with a knee or kick and catch you.
Proactive headmovement is only good to use when feinting in MT IMO.
@r1i2c3h4 feinting shouldn't be a main staple of your MT or Boxing style imo.
I was just about to comment this. If you use only Dutch guard, you’re in danger of being overwhelmed but if you can use Dutch guard for a bit, slipping for a bit, and some footwork, you can make yourself practically untouchable
@@backwardscapguy1476 yeah I agree you need to use all forms of defense. Relying on one excessively will get you overwhelmed and countered
Honestly it all comes down to fight IQ and reads . I’ve slipped punches from kick boxing and Thai style . I’ve done it in a few fights .
Coming from a boxing background I've always had people tell me in my MMA gym that I shouldn't do it.
I refuse to eliminate it from my game because it just works for me so well.
Helps lead into takedowns too.
I'd understand the sentiment in Muay Thai, but in MMA slipping becomes more prominent again due to small gloves reducing the effectiveness of the dutch guard somewhat, as well as the inclusion of wrestling increasing the general striking range to well beyond knee range.
I'm an assistant MMA coach, I'd totally encourage your slipping in my gym!
Boxing is king. Don’t listen to them, you got the best base, once you get a bit of experience in MMA you’ll school them.
They don’t know what they’re talking about. Slipping helps disguise your takedown attempts. I kinda get why they say it in Muay Thai because takedowns aren’t really a factor but come on dude you literally have to level change to get a single or double leg wtf lol
Nah bro dont listen do them, people in mma gyms told me to no do that but; first of all, I was training my head movement, which a lot of people can't seem to understand that just because the coach said to practice a certain thing, it doesn't mean I can't practice my own things as well; and second, those who said that shit, were saying it cause they were missing their shots BECAUSE of the head movement, so keep doing you brother. They're the ones who will get concussed, not you!💪😤
It’s just a matter of degree tbh. I use a lot of head movement, because most mma guys have none. You just got to keep it tight. Slip only as much as you need.
People who have no head movement always use this excuse. It’s a rationalization they use to hide their own inadequacy.
Head movement for KB & MT is different (smaller) than Boxing but still very valid. AND in today’s higher level of competition head movement is crucial.
Amen, brother! My thoughts exactly.
Agree. I love my Dutch guard but footwork and head movement has saved me from more damage.
Yep, or at least a lot of people are of the mindset "if it doesn't work for me, it doesn't work at all"
Depends entirely on your opponent and what you've observed they like to do.
If they like throwing high kicks, maybe don't rely as much on lateral head movement. If they like knees, don't roll too much.
Tanking punches to the face because "Oh no, head movement dangerous" is kind of just as bad a plan as risking dipping into kicks or knees.
Agreed. I’ve always thought that too. They suck at something so instead of working on it they just try to write it off and invalidate it. Like NO it just doesn’t work for you because you suck at it and don’t know when and when not to do it lol
@@Dmvgold1995 , Yeah, like my Jiu Jitsu
All of the GOATS up there in Muay Thai got great head movements - Samart, Lerdsila, Saenchai. Eventhough Some other like Buakaw and Rodtang got less head movement but still it's made them different than the rest of Muay Thay fighters. So, head movements is a MUST training for sure.
it's cuz a lot of muay thai fighters neglect the boxing aspect a bit & focus more on their lower body than their upper body overall. Muay thai uses boxing techniques after all, so you could become a great boxer by doing only muay thai with a focus on your upper body :D
Khamsing
might just be the most pointless response i've ever seen bruv, literally read☠@@SuperKamiGuruu
Even Haggerty uses it
Sometimes when my sparring partner is doing too much slipping, I'll throw a punch knowing they'll slip it, where my kick is about to be. Don't be predictable about it.
Cannot say enough how much I was thinking about this in the last sparing sessions I had. Thank you Gabriel Varga I appreciate
Glad you enjoyed
Excellent video as always Mr. Varga. Thank you for expressly highlighting the point that distance matters. Slipping from close boxing range drastically reduces the chance of being kicked at that distance.
good vid, I'm glad we do slips and roll in my kickboxing gym but they always specify the dangers and little adjustments to make up for it
I had this very conversation last week while sparring, I was over rolling ,the lad I was with threw a pulled knee if he had chosen to I would have lost my teeth , I’ll try to keep my movement more in line with these tips next time , thanks for the info 👍
I'll take the word of a 6x champion.
As the footage of GV shows he uses head movement to set up a counter by getting the opponent to chase his head and then GV slips to the outside and snaps a nasty counter. So GV shows that slipping isn't just a reactive defensive move but a way to use a slip with footwork to set up getting to the opponent's blind spot.
But what about when the word of a 10x champion says the opposite? Like... this video?
@@Harry-mf6rq I came here to comment this. JWP's the head coach at my Muay Thai gym so I'm pretty conflicted now haha!
@@mliao1 personally, I'm with Gabe. But the logic of 'I'll take the word of a 6x champ' when ignoring the word of a 10x champ doesn't make a lot of sense
Excellent video! Finally someone said it.
Thank you for clarifying. At my gym they actually do a pretty good job of explaining this..
If all you do is slipping as defense and the opponent can set you up for a kick or a knee, clearly it's not good... but if you mix up your defensive and offensive tactics (using the teep, blocks, parry, long guard, slip, pivot, counters etc...) the opponent will have a harder time reading you. And it's so much harder for the opponent to throw a high kick in reaction when they thought they were gonna land their punch and actually wiff it.
And if you can counter at the same time, slipping becomes a very powerful weapon.
Great video. If anything what I have seen more of is an archetype of fighter that lacks head movement, keeps their head on the centerline, and take an absurd amount of punishment, especially in Muay Thai and kickboxing. I like to train slipping and rolling but as defensive maneuvers in the hierarchy of defensive techniques I put them last on the totem pole when solely defending. I believe it goes feet, hands/guard, than head. My philosophy on slipping is that i do an action also has to follow, a counter, a change of position, or something.
that last clip was freaking gorgeous
Slipping/bobbing and heads movements in general are severly lacking in Muay Thai. Good that you bring that up
Great video
3:52 i love this. A great trick i learned from watching Ramon Dekkers is to use the cross guard from boxing when you roll under and the opponent knees you. I know it sounds really strange but before you say anything, try it out in sparring. It works very well for me
Now this is such an amazing video topic Gabriel, I definetly do prioritize slipping to, in my kickboxing training, just to have it, as another source of defence, when it comes to shots coming at my head and blocking them, overall, such an amazing episode, non the less!
Thank you, sensei
Enrolled on the list boss 😤
We even include slipping in our weapon based training / sparring (PTK). But as you said: only just enough motion to barely dodge and always with a backup to block / tap incoming damage. And only in medium to short distance. Also in the end I'd rather take your advice over any other in this topic judging from how you fight and how little damage you've taken over your whole career to this day.
you should slip by rolling your shoulders and moving your head off the center line without leaning over
Hmm always wondered this 👍👍
Add it onto the end of punch combinations when you’re moving back out of range - much safer exits
If you want to learn to slip, set up a slip line at jaw level, then get used to moving under it while shadowboxing (backwards, forwards, laterally, circling, etc) using mostly your legs with a bit of a crunch while keeping your guard up. Great advice in this video, and I agree that just because so many people do it badly and get ko'd doesn't mean it's a bad technique. Pad work should also include the scenario of slipping a punch and mimic having that head kick thrown at you from that angle, since that is a well known potential issue. You can also bait people with it if you're clever.
Back in the days I was an amateur kickboxer
I liked to pump a very telegraphed jab a couple of times, and then do It with a round kick on the same side behind. Many went straight into it
Fantastic video! This is a largely unaddressed question.
Worse strike I took was a kick to the jaw because I started slipping when I thought my sparring partner was going to punch, he kicked instead (he was aiming for a high body kick) but I lowered into it like an idiot, I only partly blocked it with my glove.
As it was intended for my body, the power was enough to numb my bottom lip for a day and made my jaw feel uneven for days, now months later I feels a bit odd sometimes.
i don't think I will try that shit again hahah, a lean back may work, but slips and Bob and weave seems too risky to me, especially against a kicker.
I think the only time a slip should be done is when you are striking at the same time, just slipping without giving your opponent something think about then you will eventually get hit in head, They can also get wise and strike your body or legs.
Same with me. Been punished for slipping too much. Ate a kick across the forehead
I slipped into a headkick. Luckily during sparring with headgear and shinpads, but damn that sucked. Like Gabriel says, time and a place for everything.
Zigged when you should have zagged lol
idk who said it but it was one of the people you made a video with. They said head movement is the last line of defense. Which is actually a really good bit of feedback.
I practice Box and Muay Thai, in Muay Thai I'm about 4 years (at not so great class but that's what I get at the moment) and in Boxing I'm about 6 months and I gotta say the head movement, the body movements were a game changer in my sparring sessions in Muay Thai. Not that the people in my class are beasts or anything but I can see how it prevented me from having my head taken out of my neck multiple times, specially against those guys that come from Jiu Jitsu that are insanely strong, however clumsy.
I've seen head movement in action and it totally works and your video examples are great because they show that it's a tool to use, and even if you overdo it I can't imagine it being bad. If you are good and have a good game in spar that can be the thing that differentiates you.
My Muay Thai coaches and peers also use head movements in Muay Thai, although less frequently than in Boxing.
Slipping is fine depending on the distance you are from the strike that is coming, on how good your timing is ,if you mix up your Slips with other defence tactics so it doesn't become predictable, and last but not least if you make use of it like counter after or use it yo advance your position ,as long as you don't just slip and do nothing after
Being a random you tube user , I am of course an expert on this subject ( and many more) . With that said , I agree with Mr Varga.
I was literally doing this drill at 11am this morning at my beginners class, and this gets uploaded
Slips are the final layer of defense you could say.
I practice slipping for kickboxing and i think its VERY important when going against taller and heavier fighters that are absolute headhunters with their kicks, but it can also go very very wrong once they realise how to catch you
Coach, I'm a boxer and I always believed that the slips and rolls we learn in boxing are too dangerous to use in other striking arts. This was really eye-opening, thanks for making this video.
You didn’t believe. The internet brainwashed you like they did everyone else.
I'm a short stocky mma guy, I have to slip to get in. We have made a modified version and it works wonders. I get why people get defensive but try and think outside the box
Get into kicking range and the slip is super effective, just beware elbows
Hmmm maybe its an old way of thing/Know the basics to break the basics. I think anything to add to your tool belt and mix your style helps. Also most people cant use their skills for every person they fight. However have seen pros slip with head movement. Great educational video!
It's Head movement + Footwork. People who write head movement off are often lacking in the second. Of course you are going to eat a head kick if you are predictably slipping stood in front of them. You can also add distance management to it, they can't kick you in a phone box, likewise outside their pocket.
I'm new to MMA. Its been 1.5 years, doing some amateur fights, i block most of times and use jijutsu to win but always struggled leaning back and slipping. Peoples hands are faster than Head movements. I shell up most of times . Thank you coach , now i need to practice slipping more to get that into the muscle memory
The trick is to move all the time and bait the strikes, not reacting. You'll always be slower if you slip in reaction (except if you have amazing reaction time or a spider sense).
Most slips come from pattern recognition and predictions. Rarely reactions unless the guy is just that fast.
Also make sure your relying on peripherals and your eyes aren’t going everywhere but at their chest or lower abs. This is so that your opponents shoulders and hips are in within your peripherals, and if you didn’t know peripherals vision is much more sensitive to motion then what are eyes are directly looking at. It’s counter intuitive but, focusing our eyes and concentrating on central vision slows our reactions, so look at their chest and unfocus your eyes almost as if everything is a blur but it doesn’t matter your relying on kinesthetic sense and general image for your opponent to hit him and not get hit.
need a what makes takeru good vid
After 32 years of fighting my mix has moved to 40/60, offense/ defense (including counter strikes)
Jeff Chan begs to differ. Guy has more head movement than a snake getting charmed
Yes. Guys like Domick Cruz were like that too. And it often works great...until it doesn't 😱
But Jeff must have great eyesight. Not many people could pull that off safely.
He does show moments tho where he gets caught or predicted he uses footwork and head movement together so he’s out of range not just slipping
Yeah I think its something important to know. You just cant do it like you would in boxing. But it is still helpful. The only thing I personally dont do is roll under punches.
Wish I saw this video before my last hard sparing, got kicked in the face while inside-slipping and it felt like getting into a car crash. Was all foggy and unfocused for about a week or two after that.
Look at all the Muay Thai technician greats like Samart, Somrak, and Lerdsila, the first two being accomplished boxers as well, they moved their heads around all the time but hardly ever got hit
I was taught slipping is OK rolling is dangerous because your opponent can bait you into rolling into kicks what is your thoughts
Samart used to use a lot of boxing defences such as slippining rolling and shoukder bumping and he is considered the goat. Movements just need to be smaller and well timed
I think you are onto it with the smaller movement, many people, myself included make too large a movement with the slip.
3 of the first 5 Mai May drills in more traditional Muay Thai all rely on basic head movement
Watch Somrak Kamsing, if its good enough for him its good enough for everyone else. He was also an Olympic boxing champion.
If someone keeps spamming those DEEP mike tyson style dip dodges its fairly easy to time them up and flying knee them. Or sometimes even land a free headkick even though I dont like kicking that high usually, but if someone is going to dip that low....
Slipping is actually not going much lower. It's moving away from the center line to the side, and maybe just a tiny bit lower. So it's relatively safe
You should do colab with Jeff Chan, high guard lover and Headmovement lover
Basically is possible but doing it smartly and most people are not smart at the beginning
So the alternative is what, just leave your head on the centreline all the time and hope you can block everything?
Also how do you throw counter shots without ever using head movement?
I literally watched one of Izzy’s title fights today and the slipping and head movement was basically a copy of Ali, he dodged everything and it worked well. Not convinced slipping can’t be used in kickboxing
As long as they are not Superbon like really big on high kicks, I do slipping a lot, with side movements, or diagnolly slip then counter shot. In my case I do striking on the premise of MMA fight so it would be less if I do pure kickboxing though.
I think in MT it's a no-no cause of the judging. judges basically want to see you absorb the power. I heard you can even score a point when your opponent defends but in a unstable manner.
I only subconsciously use head movement, as i'm just highly reactive to anything that come towards my face, so i slip, backstep, weave, duck, dodge or even jump a lot more than i block, purely out of reaction. Also why i always was the last one standing during dodgeball in school when i was younger lol, i used to jump around & dodge so well, like i was the main character of subway surfers. So it isn't about the technique you use, it's always about how you use it, in response to what situation. This reactive nature of me can be weird sometimes cuz i tend to dodge/weave whenever there is a bug flying towards my face☠. But basically, head movement is only a danger if you try to predict instead of reacting to attacks & reaction time can be practiced in a lot of ways, i used to be a csgo player so it translated well into anything that requires quick reactions lol.
I understand why people say slipping can be dangerous but counter question which is more dangerous standing still in your opponents danger zone or being evasive so they can't land a good hit? I'd rather risk getting hit to get and advantage vs taking blows to my guard.
Some kickboxing matches don't see a lot of kicking, so of course head movement works when you're basically just boxing.
"Don't let me catch you slippin''" is such a terrible advice. Its typical for the "tough guy" style type of trainers who just tell you to get your hands up and never step back. Telling a fighter not to slip is almost the same as telling a wrestler to never go for takedowns, because they might get kneed. Better of don't fight at all, you know, cause you might get hit, god forbid.
Wait how do you defend the knee against rolling then?
I believe slipping works.
As long as you don’t overextend that stuff.
I caught my last opponent with a headkick while he was slipping too much and he got knocked out.
Others are a pain in the holy chocolate package to hit.
I never was the best at slipping in "karate" class. Everything was allowed when we sparred in Sensei's dojo, so slipping too much could get you hit in the face by a good kick or knee strike, or you could end up in a guillotine choke situation vs some of the brown belts and definitely the black belts in the dojo. Generally the fewer rules you spar with, the less useful slipping will be.
Another issue is your weight class effects head movement. It's a lot harder for a 185+ pounder to slip than a lightweight or flyweight or whatever. Ironically, 185+ needs at least some head movement and perfect guard mechanics, because we can knock one another out easier than lighter fighters when we do land strikes to the head.
I used to think this until I competed and also realized you can’t just keep your head on the center line and stagnant. You’re just an easy target and when guys are punching you, your vision is blinded and if they’re powerful shots are going to do damage through the gloves. The head movement is nowhere near as drastic as boxing but you still need to be evasive
You have to imagine that kicks are punches aswell.
Push Kicks are Straight Punches.
Round Kicks are Hook Punches.
Head attack -> Slip or Roll
Jab -> Slip
Cross -> Slip
Push Kick, Teep, Pushing Knee, High raising Knee -> Slip
Body attack -> Block It or push it away!!!
Roundhouse, Body Hooks
This advice is identical to how boxers are trained. Lazy slips where you break eye contact is beginner stuff that no one trains outside very high levels where they can get away with some of it, but good luck touching them. It's a fantasy that anyone's gonna catch them with a knee. They aren't moving in predictable, slow patterns.
But, again, for us mortals tight, clean slips are the boxing norm. Just like this video.
Moving your head out the way of a strike seems perfectly reasonable to do no matter the discipline 😅
Not if your moving your head into another strike
@@shanebodnar9861I would only feel comfortable slipping somone who's inexperienced, like in a self defense situation, I honestly don't try it much in class, just feels too dangerous, and or I'm not the greatest at it
They are only saying how it is done differently in Boxing, MMA and Thai Boxing. And are taking note that they should be done differently because of the fighting styles.
@@shanebodnar9861 You have to do it a few times to learn tho xD
@@Jenjak what are u saying?
Slipping is good for close range because kicks are harder to land and punches can be countered after a slip. If you slip a jab and counter with a cross they arent going to land a kick because they just got punched. Its really difficult to do but shouldnt be thrown out completely. You just have to be more discerning when using head movement. Practice lots
You he supposed how close people can get head kicks in.
Did boxing before Muay Thai and hard sparred my first week there. Tried using head movement and immediately got set up by a fake straight into a roundhouse, rocked my world, tried slipping under a punch and got knees in the forehead… It can be used but with great risk of an opponent catches on.
You’re probably begin too obvious,
@@Gymthingz With a boxing background I doubt it, worked fine in boxing but you WILL get punished for using head movement within clinching range
@@perceptioninception2739 ahh clinching range yes. That makes sense. I thought you were using it as you were coming in and going off angles. But clinching yea, you will get punchished that close.
off topic, but where did you get those pants?
John wayne parr is reinforcing that because he likes to take punches to the head; in fact he's not even close to your level or to the level of fighters who defeated him (like holzken)
any technique is wrong if used at the wrong moment
IMHO slipping is OK, so is pull back. However, ducking is too risky.
Yeah honestly after seeing so many Muay Thai legends getting blasted on the feet, I think head movement is overlooked in Muay Thai/Kickboxing.
I think it’s ironic that John Wayne Parr would say that when his daughter has decided to pursue professional boxing instead of Muay Thai lol
So basically as IcyMike says, LEG MUSCLES
I'd also only add that boxers sometimes do move their head backwards as well, and this is asking for a sweep, low kick etc., so that should also be avoided
i dont think so
Theyre not leaning back , waiting around - theyre leaning back and coming right back
Tell him to talk to rodtang if he doesn’t like slips
Every single defensive technique from slips, to blocks, etc. have counters.
If the opponent is smart they will find patterns and use feints and timing to exploit the openings of any defense.
Especially if you keep doing the same exact thing over and over such as slips. That’s just the nature of the game.
Just because the slip is not the answer to literally every single thing an opponent can throw at you (whether it’s boxing, kickboxing, Muay Thai, etc) does not mean you should never use it nor practice it.
It’s just another tool in your toolbox to use when appropriate. You wouldn’t use a socket wrench to hammer a nail, right?
Just use the appropriate tool when the situation calls for it.
"im gonna play that back in slow motion" casual flex
Awesome!
But, what about amateur fights and headgear!? I feel like my head is 3 times bigger!!
Hate it!
Also materials don't slide when touching each other.. like.. for half landing punches..
I feel like for rolling or slipping a punch whith headgear on.. u have to exaggerate the movement..
Very true. Head gear changes the situation. Sounds like a video I need to make.
Lerdsilla does it all the time. Just be aware of the dangers at all times
So basically, do slips and rolls correctly and they're not as dangerous. Also, I would love to see what actual percentage of slips/rolls are caught by a fighter in MID ATTACK and capitalized on in Muay Thai and kickboxing? Everyone has an opinion from ringside.
To people that say it doesn’t work, I say go and have a look at Jeff Chan
The proper way to say don't do head movement would be "try not to focus too much on head movement in other combat sports since the input to output of that aspect of the game gets smaller and smaller with the wider range of techniques."
In MMA, head movement kinda sucks since it only deals with punches. There are so many ways to solve it and defense or evasion that can deal with multiple strikes and have carry over to other aspects of the game are just better. If you use footwork instead, it not only dodges the punches but it also buys you time to see takedowns and other types of strikes or grappling attacks.
People think they know more than a pro seasoned champion
Erconte, De La Ouoep; ;)
Bottom-line: if you're good at it, do it. Otherwise, don't. Remember, with age comes less heightened reaction time, as well as speed so when you feel your slips start to... um, slip... then, don't slip.
Quien te conoce jhon wayne !!
slipping is fine in your context. I think most people are talking about the context of how much boxing is slipping. They are headbutting and slipping about less than 2 feet away from the knee at all times. That's dangerous and deadly for a MMA fighter to be in.
I feel like anyone who thinks slipping doesn't work in these sports either doesn't know how to slip or just doesn't train at all.
How much will your defense course cost
We don't have a price set yet. But I will keep is reasonable as I want everyone to have access.