I’ve 2 bikes a Raleigh Avanti carbon race . I bought in 2010 when I took up cycling. I love this bike but as I got more into cycling I wanted better and spent more money on a better new lighter bike . Delighted with my new Bike at first. But then realised there wasn’t much of a difference. A friend had a titanium Bike beautiful I love the lock so in 2013 I bought myself a global brand titanium bike from the UK. And I am in love with ever since it truly is a lifetime Bike I’ve ridden in all over and done some big cycles on it Wicklow 200. Chasing the Sun. East to west coast. And Mizen Head to Malin head . It’s Fast comfortable and gorgeous. A Ti bike is a marriage between man and the perfect woman
At ~7:45, you ignored the influence of tube diameter, which is one of the key pieces to the claim that various materials can make a bike with the same riding qualities. The concept also helps explain your demonstrations on wall thickness, which may not be that relevant. The modulus/densities of common metal alloys are similar, but their densities are different. This results in different optimum tube diameters and thicknesses for each material. With low density, aluminum can use super large diameter tubing to achieve a desired stiffness, achieving a lower weight, but is still be thick enough to function. It dents easily though, due to both low density and low yield strength/density of the alloy. Due to high density, steel gets too thin when tubing diameter increases, so tubing is optimized at a narrow diameter, which weighs more to achieve target stiffness. It will have high impact resistance due to it's density and the higher yield strength/desnity of most steel alloys. Titanium is in the middle, and Ti bikes tend to have mid-diameter tubing and weights that fall between steel and aluminum. However, they typically have higher yield strength than steel, so still resist denting very well when designed at a typical stiffness. And doesn't rust or corrode. As a frame material, Ti is pretty good. Nothing magic though.
@@reginaldscot165 You mentioned it, but ignored its actual effect and couldn't produce quality examples for support. Just trying to help, as it seems like you are a bit out of your depth on this topic. If you think PT's video is poor and try to go after it with the quality of arguments you have here, it will damage your reputation.
I agree. It's really about profit margin. In the same way the pharmaceutical companies peddle a licenced drug that's expensive rather than one that may be better. But where its patent has expired and therefore there's no huge profit to be made
Absolutely correct. Owning and riding a 1993 Litespeed Ocoee xc hardtail frame (bike custom built by myself) since day one and the bike is still fresh like 31 years back and I still L.O.V.E. the ride, the looks and the ownership of it! A really great investment…
Just watched this and found it very interesting, just purchased my first titanium bike and although not ridden it over any distance yet first impressions are very good.
Just re-watched the YT by Peak Torque on titanium-framed bikes. Being an engineer and backing his claims with hard facts and science, it seems that one cannot dispute his claims. On the other hand, claiming that titanium bikes are buttery-smooth because of the inherent properties of the metal doesn't seem to be a very convincing argument.
I had to replace a titanium frame after it formed a crack in the downtube. It occurred after 10 years of high mileage. I moved the old parts(with rim brakes ! ) to the new frame. In general, Ti bikes are niche but that is a plus since you can get a custom sized frame that better fits your needs. My replacement frame was painted (I don't like the silvery finish)
Steel, titanium and aluminum have so many variants, each with a huge range of mechanical properties. Although there's some overlap, it's funny how most communicators just bunch them all together in 3 categories.
Indeed there are lots of different types of each metal. But only 2 are used to make Ti bikes, same for aluminium, and as for steel there aren’t that many manufacturers of tubes. Most companies use Reynolds or Columbus steel. So although there are many variations they aren’t really used to make bikes.
Yes you can make it as comfortable... Look at bikes from Time 😉. Ps love titanium bikes but with carbon you can do a lot with it. Debends a lot on the process on how the bike us build.
Yes it’s true you can do a lot with carbon fiber. My preferred thing to do with it is sell it to someone and then use that money to buy steel or titanium frames. 😅
Great video mate 👍. Recently bought a Ti bike after having owned all metal and carbon. Loving the ride and can't believe I waited this long. Only concern is potential cracking in the welded areas. Thanks for all your content and common sense approach 👏
+1 on building the bikes yourself - every bike I owned in the last 10 years I either assembled myself or I got very lucky to find the frame used with the components that matched my requirements within 90%. Metal frames, buy them used, can't knock the quality you get for the money.
Even just a steel bike is imo ‘timeless’ I’ve got a Cinelli vigorelli road which fits me perfectly and I actually use it more than my 3x expensive Bianchi Oltre 😂
My 2016 S-Works Tarmac still looks fantastic and I get compliments on it all the time. Frame has very few chips and the paint still looks great. I love my 2022 Emonda SLR but in my opinion (and many others) the S-Works is a better looking bike when compared side by side.
“Few chips…” Complements don’t mean much unfortunately, it all depends on the education and knowledge of the people around you. For example, my father used to wear a IWC portugieser in white gold. Nobody knew what is was and so he never got compliments. But it’s one of the best watches money can buy. If he had a much cheaper and less technically impressive Rolex he would have got compliments all the time.
as someone interested in bikepacking and long adventure touring, i like my bikes no breaking when falling over with backs on them or just sand of by my bags. never understood people buying low light carbon bikes and go bikepacking with them. right now i have a good AL frame with lots of dents and scratches.. its ok, because its AL and i would upgrade to TI if too damages.. if that would be CF, i would feel pretty stupid
@@reginaldscot165 yes. i would love to have steel. especially the repairability is nice. but investing in a good steel frame is not that much cheaper than taking Ti. Or do you have a good steel frame recommendation? Also I am unsure about corrosion. My AL frame has many scratches from bags that will probably rost away in the next years
Steel is real! Aluminium? What a steal! Titanium is really brill! Carbon bikes belong to landfill...!!! IYKYK 😂🤣😭 "There are no accidents" - Master Oogway
13:04 I think this is one of the reasons many brans have bikes that snap top tubes, down tubes, chain stays, and some even head tubes. I went for Geometron/Nicolai G1, thickest head tube on the market so far, thick down tube and seat tube, rated for downhill, extreme freeride and dual crown forks.
Personally I like steel or Ti frame bikes. True you can get a Ti frame for $500 or a carbon frame for the same price. I agree that Ti would be my choice and is a forever bike.
Great video. For months I've searched for why my Titus Roadrunner feels so good despite what Peak Torque said about material properties. I disagreed with what he said about anyone can make any material feel the same based on build, because none of it had to do with vibration absorption which is something inherently based on material qualities. I've had steel, alu, and carbon and the Titus is my 2nd ti bike. PT's video is the one that you must absolutely do a video on. Do it!
Thank you for a great channel, Reginald. Just one question. If I wanted a bike that was made out of the most comfortable material. If Comfort was my first and only priority, do I understand you correctly, that I would have to choose titanium over steel?
No, many bikes can be comfortable. For frame material steel and titanium are the best but it also depends heavily on design. I have 2 steel bikes and they are completely different in ride feel. My titanium bike is “comfortable” for a super stiff race bike for example. But it could be a lot more comfortable if the frame was a different design. Like a narrow tube is going to be more flexible than an over sized tube, a oval tube will flex better than a triangle shaped tube… Check out my video on how to make your bike comfortable. “Ways to improve road bike comfort.” In that I give a few tips on finding the right bike.
@ thank you so much. I like the video you recommended. I’m considering a custom frame. But I’m not sure if it’s gonna be steel or titanium. If both were made for comfort as first priority, which would be the most comfortable?
Very valid points stated here! I agree with 99%😊 Unfortunately, I'm one of those that can't afford even the custom,or non custom Asian made titanium bike!😢 Carbon bikes,parts, should be cancelled out gradually...How the heck do you recycle,re-use broken or obsolete carbon parts??? Metal is the way to go!🙂 Greetings from Croatia from Kris 😎
People don’t give Alu enough credit these days. It’s gonna be good enough for most people with a small weight/ aero penalty. I’ll leave ride feel to the tires. Shame no big manufacturers are pushing higher end alloy these days. There isn’t a AL bike on the market as good as a Caad12 from nearly 8 years ago.
That’s true and I have no hate towards aluminium. Its a great material for what you get for the price. I’d recommend anyone to start cycling on aluminium and then when they have the money graduate to Ti. 🙂
Bought a ti bike with full hydralic Ultegra, hand built wheels, got a ti stem and seat post, Small firm from Harrogate England . A Spa Elan Mk 2 and it's just incredible, it floats like a carpet and glows in the sun like a jewel. It was three grand, it will outlast me. Just let me say that again to be clear, full Ultegra and hand built for three grand. Stick your carbon were it belongs, in pencils.
Hi Reginald. My first Ti bike was a Litespeed Ultimate circa 1993. I still have it. I also have a Litespeed Ocoee from the same era and 2 Lynskey R255s from approximately 12 years ago. All have either top end-ish Shimano or Campag components and all are wonderful to ride. (Fortunately I have a partner who is OK with me running the N+1 rule for bike ownership😊). The only bike I have that comes close to my Ti bikes is a beautifully lugged Reynolds 531 steel bike but is obviously heavier. I think Ti bike ownership is a bit like flying, once you’ve travelled in business class there is no going back! Also I’m a physio who does bike setups and treats cyclists with chronic low back problems and I will always recommend a Ti framed bike over a carbon or aluminium bike because the ride quality (technically, the ‘ground reaction force’ load) is so much lighter compared with the others. I fully support the comments you made re Titanium as a frame material. However, when you are young and foolish (as we all once were), of course you buy the latest and greatest, don’t you? 33:40 Good video.
Excellent comment! Thankfully I was able to get into Ti bikes at an early age. Now I still do make foolish decisions but at least I won’t be getting any carbon frames from now on. 😉 Great to have people like you watching the channel. Safe riding! ❤️
Great discussion Reginald, one that particularly resonates as I've been in the market for a new bike and was leaning heavily to Ti. What I've been looking for is an 'all-road' bike, something with more classic geometry in the sense that the top tube is fairly horizontal. In my perfect world Litespeed offers an all-road with a classic design like Black Heart's All Road or Baum's Orbis+. I'd be riding it now instead writing this comment. My hesitation about Black Heart is that a $3K frameset seems a bit pricey for a new company that doesn't have Litespeed/Moots/Baum's heritage and deep expertise in Ti. Do you think I'm overly scrutinous? Albannach (Scotland), for example, sells framesets for around 1800 GBP. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Cheers
I think you are being smart, for Ti I’d lean towards established brands just for that peace of mind. Not saying there is anything wrong with black heart, I don’t know anything about them… and. That’s the problem. I’d be more inclined (if I wanted to save money) to go cheap Chinese custom! Then I’d get what I want and the risks are about the same. In fact walti titanium has a longer history and reputation than some newer western brands. Litespeed offers many bikes I think that you would love, but if you are looking for the perfect match then custom is the only way. However, you can’t really beat the LS bikes for weight and performance in the worlds of Ti and for quite a good price. All the best my friend! 👍🏻🙂
I agree with all of this when it comes to rigid frames (road, MTB and everything in between) but suspension MTB frames need to be as stiff as possible to prevent side loading the shock and pivots due to lateral flexion and, as mentioned, Ti is naturally quite springy. Interestingly carbon is going out of favour in MTB these days, all the cool kids are going for Aluminium apparently!
I know a few people with Ti MTBs, including Mr PT. They seem to like them, but I’m not into MTB so I can’t say if they are any good or not? But it’s always seemed like a bad idea to make them out of carbon? Especially when they are so expensive!
All titanium bikes I've seen had carbon wheels, carbon forks, carbon seat-posts, carbon handlebars. Not sure the material of the frame makes any noticeable difference at this point.
Well I can tell you that my bike has a Ti seatpost at least. 😅 and the rear of the bike (Ti) is way smoother than the carbon fork. If I could I’d get a Ti fork is the style of an old steel fork. To me they are the best design. 🙂
Love my ti bike, I was looking new but too expensive and struggled to get the spec I wanted. Went online for a second hand bike 95% what I wanted in geometry etc. Stripped the frame sold the unwanted parts and built what I wanted for less than a new bike. I'm 18st with a 58cm frame, cheap Chinese parts plus some 50mm aero branded wheels. Bike weighs in Inc pedals 8.6kg. I'm happy as Larry. I wouldn't touch a carbon unless you gave it to me, but I'd still sell it!"😂
@@reginaldscot165 Would you still recommend a Ti frame for a customer BMX cruiser over a chromoly? I am 50 years old, so I not doing tricks. I care more about longevity, durability, ease of cleaning and looks. Thanks.
A lot of cost is made up by the over heads of the company building it , I got my Olsen with pinion gears for £4k . You'll probably find a lot of these frames have been made in the same factory .In a former life I was qualified as a welder ,I'm very happy with the quality of mine I even X rayed the welds & I couldn't fault it & we couldn't see the difference between The Olsen & my friends £7k bike .
I think so, I bought a bike with 6/4. 6/4 will be used for certain tubes, not normally for all the frame. Makes things lighter and stiffer but it’s hard to work with. Probably more likely to have issues and will be more expensive.
Hi Reginald. Great vids you've got to be the best TH-cam bike mechanic. Do you have any experience with the magnesium alloy allite "super magnesium" frames? I have a A1 magnesium frame from VAAST. Curious your thoughts vs titanium. It was $1100 good weight and seems very durable and pretty comfortable
Thank you! I don’t know about that, I Think RJ the bike guy is probably the best. 😅 I don’t actually, interesting choice honestly, I don’t imagine it’s terribly comfortable? I have had experience of a scandium frame. Like all alloy frames like aluminium they tend to be light and stiff. I believe Magnesium is lighter than aluminium but weaker so would need thicker tube walks? The scandium frame was like a rock! 😁 What’s your frame weight Vs size? Price is good, $1,100 is not too expensive at all. My Ti frame was $4,608 USD new! 😅 (you can get cheaper frames for sure.) Your bike sounds really unique and cool, safe riding and thank you again! 🙏🏻
My bespoke Ti frame from Waltly cost me $1700 USD delivered, custom graphics and shipping ($300) included. Would you like me to list some branded Ti bikes that are fabricated by Waltly?
Nice! ❤️ Sure thing.👌🏻 I’ve had some people tell me Litespeed but they are wrong about that. However I know that they do make them for many brands. Van Nicholas I believe is one. 🙂
Now that’s a question. For me on a Ti bike I feel very little vibration. And after 100-200 KM my back and neck are not hurting. For me that’s comfort. 😉
Looking forward to your analysis of Peak Torque's discussion of different frame materials. I do appreciate his perspective but I think he sometimes misses sone key point or other. Perhaps a bit reliant on the theoretical underpinnings learned from engineering professors and disregarding some real world differences.
@@reginaldscot165 it's been a bit since I've seen it. The more recent issue I recall is I think he may have overlooked the efficiency impact of a smaller chainring in his Classified hub efficiency video. PS. Another statement I doubted was his conclusion that spokes lost tension when disc brakes caused a tone similar to that when plucked. To me, that indicates that they maintained tension. 🤷♂️ Enough piling on an unrelated video in another channel, haha. Not doubting his character, but I doubt such criticisms in his comment section would ease my concerns, guess I'm just commiserating at this point. I think the long and short of it, healthy skepticism is typically in order. Though, I'm no global warming skeptic, but still enjoy your opinions on other topics.
How is titanium or steel in a cold and humid climate? I live on the west coast of Norway 🇳🇴 and it rains almost every day. Everything that can corrode or rust will.
Titanium you can throw in the sea for 10 years and it would be completely unaffected. 🙂 Expensive stainless steel frames are also quite impervious. All other steel frames need paint on the outside to prevent rust. As long as the paint is maintained you won’t have a problem. Inside you can spray frame savers, or put oil inside to coat the frame. On my old frames I just mist them with a WD40 spray can every 5 or so years. If you get surface rust on a steel frame it’s mostly cosmetic, it won’t destroy the frame unless you neglect the bike. 🙂
what i feel after having Ti, Alloy, chromoly, and carbon. they all the same. it react different but i cannot notice much. may be because im not professional rider, it may be. for me what make huge different is the Frame design, the volume of tire, and the stiffness of the wheelset. this is what i feel have huge impact in my ride. for the material i feel nothing major except some feel lighter some feel heavy that's it.
Yes that all has a big effect. I think I’m lucky that I get to ride a lot of bikes in my job and so I see the small differences between frames and materials. In general each material has its similarities, although 2 ti bikes can ride very differently. 1 can be stiff and snappy, the other flexible and calm, but both have the Ti smoothness. I guess it’s like coffee, to some people coffe is just that. Give them 100 different cups and they will taste coffe… to someone else 1 tastes like diesel oil and another like heaven! 😅
Getting an awesome cro-mo frame is the cheapest way to build a great bike. I hope the quality ti frames become the financially viable alternative for people willing to look for them. Btw, it is my impression that ti frames are vulnerable to developing defects during the difficult manufacturing process. Perhaps you could make a video addressing the issue, if it is a valid concern.
Yes they are hard to make/ weld and for that reason I’d always go for an experienced company with a lifetime warranty. At the end of the day it’s like any product. You can have 1000s of people happily riding on their Ti bikes and then 1 unlucky persons gets a flawed one… they have a bad experience and for them it’s the end of the world. “Ti sucks!” They think and post photos of the cracked frame online. Millions of people see that and think “oh look at that, Ti cracks? I better go buy a carbon bike…” 😅
Hi , I have the chance to buy a dt swiss pr 1600 dicut wheel set at a good price, but I can't find information about this model in particular, all that I can find is about the pr 1600 spline model, what is the difference? , would it be a problem to buy spare parts replacements? thank you
On this platform you have to defend your ass against fanboys so that is why he has to point that out. It's normal not to agree with someone and still like that person and agree with other things that person said. It doesn't have to be drama
I've owned all kinds of frames. My titanium frames have stood the test of time. Where I live in the tropics there's a lot corrosive forces. We get on average 132 inches of rainfall annually. No matter at all for the titanium bikes. Plus you can sweat all over them, and they shrug it off no problem. If you want something that's going to last a lifetime, titanium is the way to go.
I have a mix aluminium carbon frame. It’s what was in vogue at the time. It rides like an aluminium frame to be honest. I really dislike the mix Ti carbon frame because it’s basically done for the looks and really adds nothing to the bike other than making 1 or 2 tubes less robust than the rest of the frame. 😅 It doesn’t even seem to make them lighter. And like the titan submarine disaster you need to be concerned about the interference between the 2 dissimilar materials as they expand and contract.
Is that mixed material bike of yours by any chance a Giant Cadex from the mid 90s? In any case, i havevone, which i ride very lttle, but it is a much nicer ride than the aluminium bike i had. @reginaldscot165
Yeah the interface between the dissimilar metals is the main thing I worry about, but on the other hand my aluminum/carbon seat stay mtb has been fine. Ti/carbon must have been pretty rare. I just know these weird oddities probably won't come back so trying one for a bit is in my mind for the road.
The really crazy thing is that Titanium in strength to weight terms is falling behind steel at this point. In the work hardened state, Reynolds 853 is over 20% stronger per unit weight than work hardened 3Al 2.5V Ti (Which seems to be the industry standard for bike frame tubing). This is a bit of a conundrum, given Ti frames are almost universally lighter than 853 frames, but dies explain why the warranty on the Ti frames is usually very short, while plenty of steel frames, even those from the same manufacturer as the Ti ones have a lifetime warranty. Also Titanium could become a lot cheaper if the process of refining it is improved - Aluminium, also very common the the Earth's crust, used to cost as much as silver because the refining process was similar to what is used for Ti, namely reduction from an oxide to a pure metal through a multi stage chemical process. Then the Bayer Process, which used electrolysis to separate the Al was developed, and suddenly Al became orders of magnitude cheaper. I heard years ago that some research group had claimed they were testing a process like this for Ti, but there hasn't been a thing about it since 😞.
Excellent comment, especially the second paragraph. 🙂 Yes before the war in Ukraine a Ukrainian company was performing such research and had made a significant breakthrough with titanium extraction. However I have no Idea of the current situation? I don’t know many companies that don’t have lifetime warranty on Ti? Normally the failure point is the welds (because of oxygen getting in) not the titanium tubes. Thank you so much for your interesting comment. 🙂👍🏻
@@reginaldscot165 On the MTB side lifetime warranties are a lot rarer. Cotic is probably the worst example as AFAIK their Ti frames are made in the US by a company that give lifetime warranty on the frames with their brand on them, so Cotic trust that company less than the company trusts itself, given their Chinese/Taiwan welded steel frames have a lifetime warranty. The reason I still don't have a Ti bike when I could have easily bought one 10-15 yeasr ago is that without a test ride, there's no way I'm spending 2k on a frame and getting test rides on anything I'm interested in would require international travel, a hell of a lot of organising without getting to try it on trails I know well enough to give e a chance of noticing improvements over what I already have. At that point I'd rater spend my free time riding the bikes I have already than anything to do with long trips (That aren't pedal powered). The other huge problem in the MTB side is that over the past 20 years, component interfaces that were set in stone for decades keep getting replaced by incompatible new ones, so there's every chance the bike industry would make my frame for life unbuildable in 4-5 years. Tapered fork steerers and boost hub and BB spacing are the worst offenders here and I hope a special place in hell is being kept for everyone who shit on 30 years of 26" wheels being the MTB standard by pushing 27.5" wheels (The real difference in radius is more like 12 mm). At least 29ers are different enough to have some advantages, but 26 and 27.5 are functionally identical, but completely incompatible.
Pity there killing rim brake bikes, carbon wheels,Ti braking surface with more aggressive pad material might have been a thing we're not going to the bottom of the sea?
I think stainless steel is the best material. If a bike is not spec'd for the rider, any discussions about ride quality, wright, longevity etc are a waste of time for off the shelf frames. There are too many variables.
Stainless steel is heavy and work hardens which leads to cracks over time. Titanium actually does the same, BSA found out the hard way when they wanted to repeat World Championship in 1966 and built a custom frame that constantly cracked and was impossible to weld 'on site' back then.
@@1crazypj not sure what SS alloy was used back then, there are different grades of SS (some which've been retired for one reason or another). I have to point to my initial comment and state that the rider is extremely important in order to benefit from material properties, whatever the material, not just brag with the brochure or material properties in a vacuum. To top it off stainless steel tubing is repairable, indefinitely, as opposed to titanium. Besides SS I'm a huge proponent of butted steel. A skilled framebuilder can build as stiff and as light a bike as possible from steel if one is willing to break away from the branding.
Never used one but I love a steel fork on a steel bike… and the part of my Ti bike I like the least is my carbon fork because it’s what gives me the most vibration. So apart from the added weight I think I’d like one. 😁👍🏻
Approximately how much do typical frames weigh in different materials? E.g. If i switch from reynolds 953 to Ti how much would i save in weight? I suspect sonething like 500g?
Same frame? Like a copy in Ti? Well, theoretically 50%… but in reality far less. It’s hard to say but a light-ish steel frame in my size is like 1.8+ and my Ti frame is 1.1. 🙂
A nice alloy frames is around 1200 grams. Most Ti frames closer to 1800 grams. Alloy frames tend to be lighter unless you are willing to spend a lot of money on a Ti frame will it's weight match a alloy frame.
Depends, for a gravel bike I’d go Ti probably. Cheap to use carbon as it’s expendable and light. But if I could get a good Ti option… I’m on the look out for one. 😆
Hambini once recorded a video about a titanium handlebar that was bent with a press, and there is a link to Tibicycles, which also produces forks. Perhaps I would put such a fork on a bicycle if I was sure what it would be like and how to install it, for example, how to saw it off. BTW, I recently received a Litespeed Ultimate thanks to your channel, and it seemed to me that it was noticeably more comfortable than my previous aluminum endurance Felt Z on a less than ideal road. On my first ride, I hit a tire on a pothole and felt a very high-frequency vibration from the carbon fork, which told me that the tube was broken.@@reginaldscot165
A lightbulb illuminated the thoughts of the makers of such 100 years ago, a eureka moment. So they all got together and decided to be profitable, maybe not the first use of planned obsolescence. Today's bike industry and most consumer items are rife with P.O which really pisses me off. So I am glad I still have my trusty 90s bikes of steel and titanium. My Colnago C40 has lasted well but needs a new fork, (if you know of any 1 inch Colnago forks that are good let me know!) I usually agree with most of Peak Torque's analysis but his views on Ti bikes was a bit off. From experience they are smooth and comfortable, of course you could make them stiff and heavy or weak and noodley, but who wants that? When I looked at the Litespeed T1 on the website months back when you said they were on sale (rim brakes) they had gone only size S or XS left...will keep looking for a M.
Titanium bikes not that expensive my Audax from Spa cycles cost £1200, 11 years ago and you can still get one for under £2k, very good bikes. Alpkit and others in the Uk do Titanium for very reasonable prices.........You just have to search that is all.
Non. If you don’t care. 😆 But when your frame makes up about 1% of your aerodynamic drag and your body makes up 80% then it’s really not worth worrying about. Especially when having a Ti frame makes you feel fresh all race long. 😉👍🏻
@@reginaldscot165 I think it's great that you called BS on this "aero" thing. Bike makers use "aero" to build bikes that are more flimsy. Then they can sell you another "aero" bicycle.
@@reginaldscot165 Thanks for the reply; I appreciate it. Interestingly, that means that the top of the line Litespeed bikes with "aero" tube shapes also don't make sense compared to their cheaper frames. Thanks again.
Come to pancake flat Singapore. All Spez/Cervelo/ Pinerallo, PNS kitted, "cost more than the Pros" Poser Gangs who will tell you they can tell the positive impact a Ceramic Speed OSPW pulley makes and hide behind the veil of performance to justify their purchase. I'd accept readily they simply like the looks or they can simply afford it than pretend that 500g weight difference is of material importance. It is afterall their hard earned money and they well deserve to be good to themselves. This is the way of the world. Bragging their bragging rights to other braggers who don't really care about other braggers anyway. 😂 If you ever fancy a tour up north to msia, I'd host you. 👌
Definitely up for that, hit me up on IG and if I’m coming to your area we can ride. 🙂👍🏻 Man the Singapore people are super hard workers and yeah they need that stress relief. Retail therapy. 🤑 Still, a lot of Ti bikes over there as well.
And once again you don't compare apples to apples when talking about the Tarmac SL8. If you deck that Lightspeed out with comparable components the price is about equal, and I'd guess the Tarmac would be lighter.
The Tarmac frame is significantly more expensive. That means you would have more money to lighten the Litespeed. Also the Tarmac has a lot of proprietary kit, bar, seatpost, FD mounts, so you are limited in what you can choose. Finally the Tarmac only comes in disc… this frame was available at the time in rim. So it will always be lighter. I had a customer with a tarmac in my shop who spent at least 20k on his bike setup. He had top of the range titanium and carbon parts on the bike and it was still 6.8kg. My Litespeed at the time cost me $13K Max (not what I paid because I didn’t pay full price for anything on the bike.) and it was 6.4kg.
Interesting video, however I think you spoil some of your pro titanium points by unfairly denigrating other materials and saying that they're unsafe or disposable. A well cared for carbon bike can also last a lifetime. I have a titanium bike and also a carbon bike, they're both fantastic machines and both have their strong points. Also I've seen broken carbon frames and broken ti frames. Carbon is not "fragile" and does not "break easily" during normal riding conditions.
For the most part you are correct. All bike frames can just crack… it’s just more likely to happen with carbon bikes. The basic logic is, if you take a Ti frame and a carbon frame and smack them together what frame will come off worse? 😉
When I was a kid I had an old Schwinn Varsity made of steel so heavy you could pound nails with it. Luckily for my carbon bikes I don't attempt to pound nails with them, I grab a hammer instead 🙃@@reginaldscot165
I have no reason to believe that titanium is not a superior material/metal, but to insinuate that bikes made of carbon or aluminium are unsafe and that they will break/snap or whatever at any moment for no reason is just nonsense. Have ridden aluminium bikes for decades and have never had any such issues. Have not had a carbon bikes or parts of carbon just as long, but have never had any such issues with carbon either. Have never heard of anyone having such problems with their carbon bikes either unless they crashed or clamped them way too hard in a bike stand or bike rack.
Well your first argument is “X never happened to you so X doesn’t happen.” Isn’t a particularly good argument. X has happened to me, it’s happened also to many customers of mine. As I work in a bike shop so I see a lot of examples. A 2 year old aluminium frame snapped on me literally just riding down a road. 🤷🏻♂️ It can happen with any material, obviously. But, everyone knows that carbon is particularly sensitive to impacts of any kind.
Since I retired my financial situation isn't going to get better so unless someone gives me a titanium frame I'll never have one . (I don't see the lottery as a viable alternative 😁) Personally, I wouldn't want a carbon bike, they are too easily damaged plus, it's a herd mentality where 'carbon' is king even though damage has been documented by various magazines since the 90's (scraped down a lamp post, ferll onto a kerb edge, etc) I'm still riding a (very, very) old Muddy Fox 'Trailblazer Tourist', Made in England I converted to hybrid around 1994~5. It's made with Tange MTB tubes and will probably outlast me, maybe that's why Muddy Fox went bust and now only has 'cheap' Chinese made bikes?
You are using the word 'strong', which is wrong from a materials engineering point of view. It's always best to differentiate between, stiffness (modulus), impact resistance, malleability, tensile strength, compressibility, and other properties: all of which can be mistaken for "strength".
I don't really see your point when it comes to Carbon vs any type of steel as a frame material. I understand that every material has it´s specific properties. Compared to all of the types of metal, which are mostly bound to their "specific operating boundaries" (strength, flexibility, mass and so on), Carbon (or other types of fiber-reinforced composites) can be greatly altered in it´s properties. You can make flexible carbon parts just like you can make very sturdy ones. Also, carbon has one additional advantage over steel. Not only can the strength be adjusted for different tubes, but it´s also possible to adjust the layup within a section. I'd say, if you wanted to, you could probably make carbon bikes that feel close to alu, steel or titanium. On the other hand, you can´t really make a carbon bike out of metal. It´s just not possible to adjust metal that much. Another thing that speaks for carbon are things like aero frames and so on. Bikes which are made out of metal will generally have to follow round tubing while carbon can be shaped in a lot of ways, as long as you get enough strength into a part and bonding/curing is possible. Of course you can also shape metals differently, but the weight will go up significantly for larger parts. Of course, carbon has the great disadvantage of being fairly brittle once hardened and can break harshly if overstressed or has a load put onto an area that wasn´t designed to withstand that. It´s a complicated material, especially if you use a lot of changing layups. If properly produced & maintained I´d say carbon is superior, but as we know, quality is a mixed bag in such a huge market like the bike industry. Titanium (which has it´s own challenges when it comes to construction as well) will likely be the more forgiving / reliable material if we talk about biking on your own, away from the pro-peloton. I think it´s fair to advertise that, and I´d love to see it getting a bit more popular here in Germany, apart from some fairly boutique brands.
A bicycle is a tool. You can buy a tool which will break and / or wear out or you can spend a little more money and get a quality tool that will last a lifetime. I see titanium bikes as being that tool. They can be compared to fine German cars. People prefer German made cars over Italian or French because they sell a reliable product that lasts. In fact if taken care of these titanium bicycles will still be an effective tool to help people to go from point A to point B after their original owners are no more. The word to describe titanium is "quality."
@@JohnSmith-nw3zg Yes, but that doesn't really mean that Carbon couldn´t last for so long as well. As long as you don't leave your bike baking in the sun for an eternity, carbon won't just break down even after a long time. If you crash harshly on a carbon or metal frame both will likely encounter lifetime-damage. In carbon it will the bonding / cracks, with metal the welds could potentially be damaged and break apart. Only difference is that Carbon is more likely to suffer from cracks within any part of the material, whereas metals will often just deform and not fail. Quality carbon parts from manufacturers like Time, BEAST and so on will likely last a lifetime if they don't suffer some kind of stronger impact damage.
Nice comment! I’d say that if they can make carbon bikes that feel like titanium then “why don’t they?” (I have ridden a lot of carbon bikes in my job and some are nice but nothing feels like Ti.) And secondly I’d say even if you could, would it have the other features of a Ti bike? Nope. It wouldn’t be as robust, long lasting, easy to maintain and so on. It’s a bit like, you could make a kitchen knife 🔪 out of carbon with the flexibility of a steel knife… but nobody would because carbon isn’t suitable knife material. Just because you can doesn’t mean it makes sense, you see? That’s basically the problem with the bike industry, they tell sweet little lies about how carbon can do everything, it can… but it only does 1 or 2 things well. The rest it mimics poorly. Yes you can vary the weaves, but in the same way you can mix different alloys. The range of possibilities with alloys is going to be much greater than a weave layup of carbon. And at the end of the day only a few of those possibilities are actually useful for making bikes, some are just too hard or too brittle or not hard enough. As for aerodynamics, frame aerodynamics is 1% of your drag anyway so not something i worry about. However with hydroforming and now 3D printing the possibilities are endless! As the technology improves (outside of the cycling industry because here there is no demand or interest in improving Ti) we could see lighter and more aerodynamic frames in Ti that can be endlessly recycled. 😁
@@reginaldscot165 Varying materials will in the end always results in some properties being different. I‘d still argue though that you could make carbon bikes that feel very similar to Ti, Al or Steel. It‘s just that it doesnt really make sense to do so. Obviously wall thinkness would likely vary when using carbon for the same shapes. Using different alloys for different tubes will present a challenge when welding, if possible at all. Hydroforming and 3D printing with metal powder are pretty interesting options. Both still seem to be fairly niche at this point though. I‘d like to know where you get that 1% aerodynamic drag thing from. The bike will usually have an influence around 20-40% to my knowledge. Of course ones position should be correct, but I‘d assume that for any given frame when comparing materials.
@@reginaldscot165 then, why to choose titanium frame? They are heavy and expensive. Have you ever ridden Time RTM carbon frame? My is almost 20 years old, lightweight, stiff, very comfortable, still in great condition. And have a properly sized BB shell, unlike your titanium frame.
I love titanium! Yet the only material analysis I have ever seen that would stand muster in an undergrad class came from @peaktorque - everyone else just sounds like because "Merlin told me so." Your other videos rock, especially the Hambearing try hardfest. Show me some numbers!@@reginaldscot165
I’ve 2 bikes a Raleigh Avanti carbon race . I bought in 2010 when I took up cycling. I love this bike but as I got more into cycling I wanted better and spent more money on a better new lighter bike . Delighted with my new Bike at first. But then realised there wasn’t much of a difference. A friend had a titanium Bike beautiful I love the lock so in 2013 I bought myself a global brand titanium bike from the UK. And I am in love with ever since it truly is a lifetime Bike I’ve ridden in all over and done some big cycles on it Wicklow 200. Chasing the Sun. East to west coast. And Mizen Head to Malin head . It’s Fast comfortable and gorgeous. A Ti bike is a marriage between man and the perfect woman
Nice 👌🏻 😎
At ~7:45, you ignored the influence of tube diameter, which is one of the key pieces to the claim that various materials can make a bike with the same riding qualities. The concept also helps explain your demonstrations on wall thickness, which may not be that relevant. The modulus/densities of common metal alloys are similar, but their densities are different. This results in different optimum tube diameters and thicknesses for each material. With low density, aluminum can use super large diameter tubing to achieve a desired stiffness, achieving a lower weight, but is still be thick enough to function. It dents easily though, due to both low density and low yield strength/density of the alloy. Due to high density, steel gets too thin when tubing diameter increases, so tubing is optimized at a narrow diameter, which weighs more to achieve target stiffness. It will have high impact resistance due to it's density and the higher yield strength/desnity of most steel alloys. Titanium is in the middle, and Ti bikes tend to have mid-diameter tubing and weights that fall between steel and aluminum. However, they typically have higher yield strength than steel, so still resist denting very well when designed at a typical stiffness. And doesn't rust or corrode. As a frame material, Ti is pretty good. Nothing magic though.
I thought I mentioned tube size? Never said it was magic. 🙂🙏🏻
@@reginaldscot165 You mentioned it, but ignored its actual effect and couldn't produce quality examples for support. Just trying to help, as it seems like you are a bit out of your depth on this topic. If you think PT's video is poor and try to go after it with the quality of arguments you have here, it will damage your reputation.
I agree. It's really about profit margin. In the same way the pharmaceutical companies peddle a licenced drug that's expensive rather than one that may be better. But where its patent has expired and therefore there's no huge profit to be made
Yes that’s 100% true, that’s exactly what they do. 🥺
Absolutely correct. Owning and riding a 1993 Litespeed Ocoee xc hardtail frame (bike custom built by myself) since day one and the bike is still fresh like 31 years back and I still L.O.V.E. the ride, the looks and the ownership of it! A really great investment…
Well said! 🙂👍🏻
Just watched this and found it very interesting, just purchased my first titanium bike and although not ridden it over any distance yet first impressions are very good.
Awesome! Happy riding! ❤️
you're not going to be disappointed be sure about that.
Just re-watched the YT by Peak Torque on titanium-framed bikes. Being an engineer and backing his claims with hard facts and science, it seems that one cannot dispute his claims.
On the other hand, claiming that titanium bikes are buttery-smooth because of the inherent properties of the metal doesn't seem to be a very convincing argument.
Then like him you missed the mistakes in his video. 😉
I had to replace a titanium frame after it formed a crack in the downtube. It occurred after 10 years of high mileage. I moved the old parts(with rim brakes ! ) to the new frame. In general, Ti bikes are niche but that is a plus since you can get a custom sized frame that better fits your needs. My replacement frame was painted (I don't like the silvery finish)
Cool 👍🏻
Steel, titanium and aluminum have so many variants, each with a huge range of mechanical properties. Although there's some overlap, it's funny how most communicators just bunch them all together in 3 categories.
Indeed there are lots of different types of each metal. But only 2 are used to make Ti bikes, same for aluminium, and as for steel there aren’t that many manufacturers of tubes. Most companies use Reynolds or Columbus steel. So although there are many variations they aren’t really used to make bikes.
Very insightful & informative for me as a new titanium "convert". I have some questions to assist in my in my journey to acquire my first Ti bike.
Glad I could help. 🙂 👍🏻
Yes you can make it as comfortable... Look at bikes from Time 😉. Ps love titanium bikes but with carbon you can do a lot with it. Debends a lot on the process on how the bike us build.
Yes it’s true you can do a lot with carbon fiber. My preferred thing to do with it is sell it to someone and then use that money to buy steel or titanium frames. 😅
@@reginaldscot165 what ever floats your boat.. 😉
Great video mate 👍. Recently bought a Ti bike after having owned all metal and carbon. Loving the ride and can't believe I waited this long. Only concern is potential cracking in the welded areas.
Thanks for all your content and common sense approach 👏
Thank you 🙏🏻 Welcome to the Ti club. 😁
+1 on building the bikes yourself - every bike I owned in the last 10 years I either assembled myself or I got very lucky to find the frame used with the components that matched my requirements within 90%. Metal frames, buy them used, can't knock the quality you get for the money.
Good move 🙂👍🏻
Even just a steel bike is imo ‘timeless’ I’ve got a Cinelli vigorelli road which fits me perfectly and I actually use it more than my 3x expensive Bianchi Oltre 😂
So true! Can’t beat a good steel bike. 😎👌🏻
My 2016 S-Works Tarmac still looks fantastic and I get compliments on it all the time. Frame has very few chips and the paint still looks great. I love my 2022 Emonda SLR but in my opinion (and many others) the S-Works is a better looking bike when compared side by side.
“Few chips…” Complements don’t mean much unfortunately, it all depends on the education and knowledge of the people around you. For example, my father used to wear a IWC portugieser in white gold. Nobody knew what is was and so he never got compliments. But it’s one of the best watches money can buy. If he had a much cheaper and less technically impressive Rolex he would have got compliments all the time.
It's a beautiful bike and rides fantastic. The people who have given it compliments know their stuff.@@reginaldscot165
as someone interested in bikepacking and long adventure touring, i like my bikes no breaking when falling over with backs on them or just sand of by my bags. never understood people buying low light carbon bikes and go bikepacking with them.
right now i have a good AL frame with lots of dents and scratches.. its ok, because its AL and i would upgrade to TI if too damages.. if that would be CF, i would feel pretty stupid
Steel is also a great choice for a bike packing adventure. 👍🏻🙂
@@reginaldscot165 yes. i would love to have steel. especially the repairability is nice. but investing in a good steel frame is not that much cheaper than taking Ti. Or do you have a good steel frame recommendation? Also I am unsure about corrosion. My AL frame has many scratches from bags that will probably rost away in the next years
Steel is real!
Aluminium? What a steal!
Titanium is really brill!
Carbon bikes belong to landfill...!!! IYKYK 😂🤣😭
"There are no accidents" - Master Oogway
Nice comment 👍🏻😁
13:04 I think this is one of the reasons many brans have bikes that snap top tubes, down tubes, chain stays, and some even head tubes.
I went for Geometron/Nicolai G1, thickest head tube on the market so far, thick down tube and seat tube, rated for downhill, extreme freeride and dual crown forks.
Impressive 😳
Personally I like steel or Ti frame bikes. True you can get a Ti frame for $500 or a carbon frame for the same price. I agree that Ti would be my choice and is a forever bike.
Me too. For me it’s steel or Ti from now on… still got endless choices.
Great video. For months I've searched for why my Titus Roadrunner feels so good despite what Peak Torque said about material properties. I disagreed with what he said about anyone can make any material feel the same based on build, because none of it had to do with vibration absorption which is something inherently based on material qualities. I've had steel, alu, and carbon and the Titus is my 2nd ti bike. PT's video is the one that you must absolutely do a video on. Do it!
Thank you very much and yes I must get around to it.
Thank you for a great channel, Reginald. Just one question. If I wanted a bike that was made out of the most comfortable material. If Comfort was my first and only priority, do I understand you correctly, that I would have to choose titanium over steel?
No, many bikes can be comfortable.
For frame material steel and titanium are the best but it also depends heavily on design. I have 2 steel bikes and they are completely different in ride feel.
My titanium bike is “comfortable” for a super stiff race bike for example. But it could be a lot more comfortable if the frame was a different design.
Like a narrow tube is going to be more flexible than an over sized tube, a oval tube will flex better than a triangle shaped tube…
Check out my video on how to make your bike comfortable. “Ways to improve road bike comfort.”
In that I give a few tips on finding the right bike.
@ thank you so much. I like the video you recommended.
I’m considering a custom frame. But I’m not sure if it’s gonna be steel or titanium. If both were made for comfort as first priority, which would be the most comfortable?
Very valid points stated here! I agree with 99%😊
Unfortunately, I'm one of those that can't afford even the custom,or non custom Asian made titanium bike!😢
Carbon bikes,parts, should be cancelled out gradually...How the heck do you recycle,re-use broken or obsolete carbon parts??? Metal is the way to go!🙂
Greetings from Croatia from Kris 😎
Well said! Agreed 👍🏻 🙂
People don’t give Alu enough credit these days. It’s gonna be good enough for most people with a small weight/ aero penalty. I’ll leave ride feel to the tires. Shame no big manufacturers are pushing higher end alloy these days. There isn’t a AL bike on the market as good as a Caad12 from nearly 8 years ago.
That’s true and I have no hate towards aluminium. Its a great material for what you get for the price. I’d recommend anyone to start cycling on aluminium and then when they have the money graduate to Ti. 🙂
Bought a ti bike with full hydralic Ultegra, hand built wheels, got a ti stem and seat post, Small firm from Harrogate England . A Spa Elan Mk 2 and it's just incredible, it floats like a carpet and glows in the sun like a jewel. It was three grand, it will outlast me. Just let me say that again to be clear, full Ultegra and hand built for three grand. Stick your carbon were it belongs, in pencils.
Ha ha love it. Happy riding! ❤️👍🏻
My Dedacciai Zero seat tube is 0.8/0.6. Probably similar weight to the 1mm titanium. Steel could be the new wonder material.
It’s always been a wonder material. 😁👍🏻
Hi Reginald.
My first Ti bike was a Litespeed Ultimate circa 1993. I still have it. I also have a Litespeed Ocoee from the same era and 2 Lynskey R255s from approximately 12 years ago. All have either top end-ish Shimano or Campag components and all are wonderful to ride. (Fortunately I have a partner who is OK with me running the N+1 rule for bike ownership😊).
The only bike I have that comes close to my Ti bikes is a beautifully lugged Reynolds 531 steel bike but is obviously heavier.
I think Ti bike ownership is a bit like flying, once you’ve travelled in business class there is no going back!
Also I’m a physio who does bike setups and treats cyclists with chronic low back problems and I will always recommend a Ti framed bike over a carbon or aluminium bike because the ride quality (technically, the ‘ground reaction force’ load) is so much lighter compared with the others. I fully support the comments you made re Titanium as a frame material. However, when you are young and foolish (as we all once were), of course you buy the latest and greatest, don’t you? 33:40
Good video.
Excellent comment! Thankfully I was able to get into Ti bikes at an early age. Now I still do make foolish decisions but at least I won’t be getting any carbon frames from now on. 😉
Great to have people like you watching the channel. Safe riding! ❤️
Hello enjoyed this one .
What are your thoughts on the Decathlon Triban GRVL 900 titanium gravel bike?
Thank you. TBH I didn’t know they made one. But I had an aluminium Triban in the early 2000s and it was great! 🙂
Own 2 Lynskey's ( R460 and a Helix Pro ) and love them. Not that expensive.
Nice 👌🏻
Great discussion Reginald, one that particularly resonates as I've been in the market for a new bike and was leaning heavily to Ti. What I've been looking for is an 'all-road' bike, something with more classic geometry in the sense that the top tube is fairly horizontal. In my perfect world Litespeed offers an all-road with a classic design like Black Heart's All Road or Baum's Orbis+. I'd be riding it now instead writing this comment. My hesitation about Black Heart is that a $3K frameset seems a bit pricey for a new company that doesn't have Litespeed/Moots/Baum's heritage and deep expertise in Ti. Do you think I'm overly scrutinous? Albannach (Scotland), for example, sells framesets for around 1800 GBP. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Cheers
I think you are being smart, for Ti I’d lean towards established brands just for that peace of mind. Not saying there is anything wrong with black heart, I don’t know anything about them… and. That’s the problem. I’d be more inclined (if I wanted to save money) to go cheap Chinese custom! Then I’d get what I want and the risks are about the same. In fact walti titanium has a longer history and reputation than some newer western brands.
Litespeed offers many bikes I think that you would love, but if you are looking for the perfect match then custom is the only way. However, you can’t really beat the LS bikes for weight and performance in the worlds of Ti and for quite a good price.
All the best my friend! 👍🏻🙂
Cheers Reg -- 'preciate the response@@reginaldscot165
I agree with all of this when it comes to rigid frames (road, MTB and everything in between) but suspension MTB frames need to be as stiff as possible to prevent side loading the shock and pivots due to lateral flexion and, as mentioned, Ti is naturally quite springy. Interestingly carbon is going out of favour in MTB these days, all the cool kids are going for Aluminium apparently!
I know a few people with Ti MTBs, including Mr PT. They seem to like them, but I’m not into MTB so I can’t say if they are any good or not? But it’s always seemed like a bad idea to make them out of carbon? Especially when they are so expensive!
All titanium bikes I've seen had carbon wheels, carbon forks, carbon seat-posts, carbon handlebars. Not sure the material of the frame makes any noticeable difference at this point.
Well I can tell you that my bike has a Ti seatpost at least. 😅 and the rear of the bike (Ti) is way smoother than the carbon fork. If I could I’d get a Ti fork is the style of an old steel fork. To me they are the best design. 🙂
Love my ti bike, I was looking new but too expensive and struggled to get the spec I wanted. Went online for a second hand bike 95% what I wanted in geometry etc. Stripped the frame sold the unwanted parts and built what I wanted for less than a new bike.
I'm 18st with a 58cm frame, cheap Chinese parts plus some 50mm aero branded wheels. Bike weighs in Inc pedals 8.6kg. I'm happy as Larry. I wouldn't touch a carbon unless you gave it to me, but I'd still sell it!"😂
Smart move. 😎👍🏻
Great video. I thinking about getting a ti bike.
You should! 😁
@@reginaldscot165 Mahalo!!!
@@reginaldscot165 Would you still recommend a Ti frame for a customer BMX cruiser over a chromoly? I am 50 years old, so I not doing tricks. I care more about longevity, durability, ease of cleaning and looks. Thanks.
A lot of cost is made up by the over heads of the company building it , I got my Olsen with pinion gears for £4k . You'll probably find a lot of these frames have been made in the same factory .In a former life I was qualified as a welder ,I'm very happy with the quality of mine I even X rayed the welds & I couldn't fault it & we couldn't see the difference between The Olsen & my friends £7k bike .
Nice! Always had admiration for the skill of hand welding. All my welding was done with robots so I never learned the skill myself. 🙂👍🏻
Can you compare please 6Al 4V titanium and 3Al/2.5V ? Is it worth premium price tag of 6Al 4V ? Thanks.
I think so, I bought a bike with 6/4. 6/4 will be used for certain tubes, not normally for all the frame. Makes things lighter and stiffer but it’s hard to work with. Probably more likely to have issues and will be more expensive.
Hi Reginald.
Great vids you've got to be the best TH-cam bike mechanic.
Do you have any experience with the magnesium alloy allite "super magnesium" frames?
I have a A1 magnesium frame from VAAST.
Curious your thoughts vs titanium. It was $1100 good weight and seems very durable and pretty comfortable
Thank you! I don’t know about that, I Think RJ the bike guy is probably the best. 😅 I don’t actually, interesting choice honestly, I don’t imagine it’s terribly comfortable? I have had experience of a scandium frame. Like all alloy frames like aluminium they tend to be light and stiff. I believe Magnesium is lighter than aluminium but weaker so would need thicker tube walks? The scandium frame was like a rock! 😁 What’s your frame weight Vs size?
Price is good, $1,100 is not too expensive at all. My Ti frame was $4,608 USD new! 😅 (you can get cheaper frames for sure.)
Your bike sounds really unique and cool, safe riding and thank you again! 🙏🏻
My bespoke Ti frame from Waltly cost me $1700 USD delivered, custom graphics and shipping ($300) included. Would you like me to list some branded Ti bikes that are fabricated by Waltly?
Nice! ❤️ Sure thing.👌🏻 I’ve had some people tell me Litespeed but they are wrong about that. However I know that they do make them for many brands. Van Nicholas I believe is one. 🙂
@@reginaldscot165, that one's a maybe. I'm certain about Sonder, Ribble, and Serk.
How do you define “comfort”? Perhaps as simple beam deflection under an applied load?
Now that’s a question.
For me on a Ti bike I feel very little vibration. And after 100-200 KM my back and neck are not hurting. For me that’s comfort. 😉
Looking forward to your analysis of Peak Torque's discussion of different frame materials. I do appreciate his perspective but I think he sometimes misses sone key point or other. Perhaps a bit reliant on the theoretical underpinnings learned from engineering professors and disregarding some real world differences.
Yes that’s my main issue with his video, that and his evidence doesn’t match his point? 😁
@@reginaldscot165 it's been a bit since I've seen it. The more recent issue I recall is I think he may have overlooked the efficiency impact of a smaller chainring in his Classified hub efficiency video.
PS. Another statement I doubted was his conclusion that spokes lost tension when disc brakes caused a tone similar to that when plucked. To me, that indicates that they maintained tension. 🤷♂️ Enough piling on an unrelated video in another channel, haha. Not doubting his character, but I doubt such criticisms in his comment section would ease my concerns, guess I'm just commiserating at this point. I think the long and short of it, healthy skepticism is typically in order. Though, I'm no global warming skeptic, but still enjoy your opinions on other topics.
How is titanium or steel in a cold and humid climate? I live on the west coast of Norway 🇳🇴 and it rains almost every day. Everything that can corrode or rust will.
Titanium you can throw in the sea for 10 years and it would be completely unaffected. 🙂
Expensive stainless steel frames are also quite impervious.
All other steel frames need paint on the outside to prevent rust. As long as the paint is maintained you won’t have a problem. Inside you can spray frame savers, or put oil inside to coat the frame. On my old frames I just mist them with a WD40 spray can every 5 or so years. If you get surface rust on a steel frame it’s mostly cosmetic, it won’t destroy the frame unless you neglect the bike. 🙂
Because of this vid, I might pull the trigger on buying the eeWings all road Ti cranks. 🥴
Very sexy… I considered it myself.
What's your bike's BB standard?
what i feel after having Ti, Alloy, chromoly, and carbon. they all the same. it react different but i cannot notice much. may be because im not professional rider, it may be.
for me what make huge different is the Frame design, the volume of tire, and the stiffness of the wheelset. this is what i feel have huge impact in my ride. for the material i feel nothing major except some feel lighter some feel heavy that's it.
Yes that all has a big effect. I think I’m lucky that I get to ride a lot of bikes in my job and so I see the small differences between frames and materials. In general each material has its similarities, although 2 ti bikes can ride very differently. 1 can be stiff and snappy, the other flexible and calm, but both have the Ti smoothness.
I guess it’s like coffee, to some people coffe is just that. Give them 100 different cups and they will taste coffe… to someone else 1 tastes like diesel oil and another like heaven! 😅
Getting an awesome cro-mo frame is the cheapest way to build a great bike. I hope the quality ti frames become the financially viable alternative for people willing to look for them. Btw, it is my impression that ti frames are vulnerable to developing defects during the difficult manufacturing process. Perhaps you could make a video addressing the issue, if it is a valid concern.
Yes they are hard to make/ weld and for that reason I’d always go for an experienced company with a lifetime warranty. At the end of the day it’s like any product. You can have 1000s of people happily riding on their Ti bikes and then 1 unlucky persons gets a flawed one… they have a bad experience and for them it’s the end of the world. “Ti sucks!” They think and post photos of the cracked frame online. Millions of people see that and think “oh look at that, Ti cracks? I better go buy a carbon bike…” 😅
Hi , I have the chance to buy a dt swiss pr 1600 dicut wheel set at a good price, but I can't find information about this model in particular, all that I can find is about the pr 1600 spline model, what is the difference? , would it be a problem to buy spare parts replacements? thank you
The Dicut is an upgrade over the spline. It should be lighter. Parts, same difficulty to get as any parts for DT. 🙂👍🏻 Good wheels.
thanks a lot mate@@reginaldscot165
one last thing, are these hubs similar to 350 model?
@@reginaldscot165
@@jorgesierra3165Yes they're similar and already using ratchet as engagement instead of pawl.
#SwissEngineering
"No hate against Peak Torque. I'm just sharing my comments and criticism." Durianrider has left a mark on you, Reginald.
I’m just built that way. But for real I like Peak Torque, he is Hambini without the **** and the ****. 😄
On this platform you have to defend your ass against fanboys so that is why he has to point that out.
It's normal not to agree with someone and still like that person and agree with other things that person said.
It doesn't have to be drama
I've owned all kinds of frames. My titanium frames have stood the test of time. Where I live in the tropics there's a lot corrosive forces. We get on average 132 inches of rainfall annually. No matter at all for the titanium bikes. Plus you can sweat all over them, and they shrug it off no problem. If you want something that's going to last a lifetime, titanium is the way to go.
💯👍🏻Agreed!
Thoughts on mixed material bikes? carbon+aluminum was more common but I have seen steel+aluminum, steel+carbon, ti+carbon, and that's about it.
I have a mix aluminium carbon frame. It’s what was in vogue at the time. It rides like an aluminium frame to be honest.
I really dislike the mix Ti carbon frame because it’s basically done for the looks and really adds nothing to the bike other than making 1 or 2 tubes less robust than the rest of the frame. 😅
It doesn’t even seem to make them lighter. And like the titan submarine disaster you need to be concerned about the interference between the 2 dissimilar materials as they expand and contract.
Is that mixed material bike of yours by any chance a Giant Cadex from the mid 90s? In any case, i havevone, which i ride very lttle, but it is a much nicer ride than the aluminium bike i had. @reginaldscot165
Yeah the interface between the dissimilar metals is the main thing I worry about, but on the other hand my aluminum/carbon seat stay mtb has been fine. Ti/carbon must have been pretty rare. I just know these weird oddities probably won't come back so trying one for a bit is in my mind for the road.
Well said Reginald.
Not a fan of aluminum or carbon bikes
Looking forward to your next video as usual .
All the best!
Thank you my friend. 🙏🏻
The really crazy thing is that Titanium in strength to weight terms is falling behind steel at this point. In the work hardened state, Reynolds 853 is over 20% stronger per unit weight than work hardened 3Al 2.5V Ti (Which seems to be the industry standard for bike frame tubing). This is a bit of a conundrum, given Ti frames are almost universally lighter than 853 frames, but dies explain why the warranty on the Ti frames is usually very short, while plenty of steel frames, even those from the same manufacturer as the Ti ones have a lifetime warranty.
Also Titanium could become a lot cheaper if the process of refining it is improved - Aluminium, also very common the the Earth's crust, used to cost as much as silver because the refining process was similar to what is used for Ti, namely reduction from an oxide to a pure metal through a multi stage chemical process. Then the Bayer Process, which used electrolysis to separate the Al was developed, and suddenly Al became orders of magnitude cheaper. I heard years ago that some research group had claimed they were testing a process like this for Ti, but there hasn't been a thing about it since 😞.
Excellent comment, especially the second paragraph. 🙂
Yes before the war in Ukraine a Ukrainian company was performing such research and had made a significant breakthrough with titanium extraction. However I have no Idea of the current situation?
I don’t know many companies that don’t have lifetime warranty on Ti? Normally the failure point is the welds (because of oxygen getting in) not the titanium tubes.
Thank you so much for your interesting comment. 🙂👍🏻
@@reginaldscot165 On the MTB side lifetime warranties are a lot rarer. Cotic is probably the worst example as AFAIK their Ti frames are made in the US by a company that give lifetime warranty on the frames with their brand on them, so Cotic trust that company less than the company trusts itself, given their Chinese/Taiwan welded steel frames have a lifetime warranty.
The reason I still don't have a Ti bike when I could have easily bought one 10-15 yeasr ago is that without a test ride, there's no way I'm spending 2k on a frame and getting test rides on anything I'm interested in would require international travel, a hell of a lot of organising without getting to try it on trails I know well enough to give e a chance of noticing improvements over what I already have.
At that point I'd rater spend my free time riding the bikes I have already than anything to do with long trips (That aren't pedal powered).
The other huge problem in the MTB side is that over the past 20 years, component interfaces that were set in stone for decades keep getting replaced by incompatible new ones, so there's every chance the bike industry would make my frame for life unbuildable in 4-5 years.
Tapered fork steerers and boost hub and BB spacing are the worst offenders here and I hope a special place in hell is being kept for everyone who shit on 30 years of 26" wheels being the MTB standard by pushing 27.5" wheels (The real difference in radius is more like 12 mm). At least 29ers are different enough to have some advantages, but 26 and 27.5 are functionally identical, but completely incompatible.
Pity there killing rim brake bikes, carbon wheels,Ti braking surface with more aggressive pad material might have been a thing we're not going to the bottom of the sea?
Whenever anyone asks me why I have carbon wheels I say “ because they don’t make them out of titanium.” 😅
I think stainless steel is the best material. If a bike is not spec'd for the rider, any discussions about ride quality, wright, longevity etc are a waste of time for off the shelf frames. There are too many variables.
That’s very true. Good point. 👍🏻
Stainless steel is heavy and work hardens which leads to cracks over time.
Titanium actually does the same, BSA found out the hard way when they wanted to repeat World Championship in 1966 and built a custom frame that constantly cracked and was impossible to weld 'on site' back then.
@@1crazypj not sure what SS alloy was used back then, there are different grades of SS (some which've been retired for one reason or another). I have to point to my initial comment and state that the rider is extremely important in order to benefit from material properties, whatever the material, not just brag with the brochure or material properties in a vacuum.
To top it off stainless steel tubing is repairable, indefinitely, as opposed to titanium. Besides SS I'm a huge proponent of butted steel. A skilled framebuilder can build as stiff and as light a bike as possible from steel if one is willing to break away from the branding.
What’s your thoughts on the Black Hart road titanium frame that GC pł
What’s your thoughts on Ti forks?
Never used one but I love a steel fork on a steel bike… and the part of my Ti bike I like the least is my carbon fork because it’s what gives me the most vibration. So apart from the added weight I think I’d like one. 😁👍🏻
Approximately how much do typical frames weigh in different materials? E.g. If i switch from reynolds 953 to Ti how much would i save in weight? I suspect sonething like 500g?
Same frame? Like a copy in Ti? Well, theoretically 50%… but in reality far less. It’s hard to say but a light-ish steel frame in my size is like 1.8+ and my Ti frame is 1.1. 🙂
A nice alloy frames is around 1200 grams. Most Ti frames closer to 1800 grams. Alloy frames tend to be lighter unless you are willing to spend a lot of money on a Ti frame will it's weight match a alloy frame.
Hai.. want to get your chainlube.. how and where to buy it.. 10q.
If you are in Brunei hit me up on IG, if you are outside unfortunately I can’t send it to you as it’s not allowed in the post. 🙏🏻
GCN expert: "energy prices never go down". Ummm.... Supply and demand mate... Yes they do go down!
Ha ha yeah… also as if other materials don’t require any energy to manufacture. 😅
What type of fork do you recommend for a TI bike?
Depends, for a gravel bike I’d go Ti probably. Cheap to use carbon as it’s expendable and light. But if I could get a good Ti option… I’m on the look out for one. 😆
Hambini once recorded a video about a titanium handlebar that was bent with a press, and there is a link to Tibicycles, which also produces forks. Perhaps I would put such a fork on a bicycle if I was sure what it would be like and how to install it, for example, how to saw it off. BTW, I recently received a Litespeed Ultimate thanks to your channel, and it seemed to me that it was noticeably more comfortable than my previous aluminum endurance Felt Z on a less than ideal road. On my first ride, I hit a tire on a pothole and felt a very high-frequency vibration from the carbon fork, which told me that the tube was broken.@@reginaldscot165
My new title for you is" Reginald Scott CFCS " Crusader For Common Sense!
Nice! Everyone loves the crusades! ❤️⚔️
A lightbulb illuminated the thoughts of the makers of such 100 years ago, a eureka moment. So they all got together and decided to be profitable, maybe not the first use of planned obsolescence. Today's bike industry and most consumer items are rife with P.O which really pisses me off. So I am glad I still have my trusty 90s bikes of steel and titanium. My Colnago C40 has lasted well but needs a new fork, (if you know of any 1 inch Colnago forks that are good let me know!) I usually agree with most of Peak Torque's analysis but his views on Ti bikes was a bit off. From experience they are smooth and comfortable, of course you could make them stiff and heavy or weak and noodley, but who wants that? When I looked at the Litespeed T1 on the website months back when you said they were on sale (rim brakes) they had gone only size S or XS left...will keep looking for a M.
Great comment, agreed 👍🏻 🙂
Titanium bikes not that expensive my Audax from Spa cycles cost £1200, 11 years ago and you can still get one for under £2k, very good bikes. Alpkit and others in the Uk do Titanium for very reasonable prices.........You just have to search that is all.
So true! And to think 17 years ago I bought a aluminium bike for £1,500. 😅
What is the aero disadvantage of a Ti frame ?
Non. If you don’t care. 😆
But when your frame makes up about 1% of your aerodynamic drag and your body makes up 80% then it’s really not worth worrying about. Especially when having a Ti frame makes you feel fresh all race long. 😉👍🏻
@@reginaldscot165 I think it's great that you called BS on this "aero" thing. Bike makers use "aero" to build bikes that are more flimsy. Then they can sell you another "aero" bicycle.
@@reginaldscot165 Thanks for the reply; I appreciate it. Interestingly, that means that the top of the line Litespeed bikes with "aero" tube shapes also don't make sense compared to their cheaper frames. Thanks again.
Come to pancake flat Singapore. All Spez/Cervelo/ Pinerallo, PNS kitted, "cost more than the Pros" Poser Gangs who will tell you they can tell the positive impact a Ceramic Speed OSPW pulley makes and hide behind the veil of performance to justify their purchase. I'd accept readily they simply like the looks or they can simply afford it than pretend that 500g weight difference is of material importance. It is afterall their hard earned money and they well deserve to be good to themselves.
This is the way of the world. Bragging their bragging rights to other braggers who don't really care about other braggers anyway. 😂
If you ever fancy a tour up north to msia, I'd host you. 👌
Definitely up for that, hit me up on IG and if I’m coming to your area we can ride. 🙂👍🏻
Man the Singapore people are super hard workers and yeah they need that stress relief. Retail therapy. 🤑
Still, a lot of Ti bikes over there as well.
@@reginaldscot165 Couldn't find your account in IG nor TH-cam Bio. 🤷♂️
8k 😅 cant afford more than one bike maybe...carbon fiber needs to come way down .....into the disposable range 😅
The Chinese ones on Aliexpress are quite cheap.
And once again you don't compare apples to apples when talking about the Tarmac SL8. If you deck that Lightspeed out with comparable components the price is about equal, and I'd guess the Tarmac would be lighter.
The Tarmac frame is significantly more expensive. That means you would have more money to lighten the Litespeed. Also the Tarmac has a lot of proprietary kit, bar, seatpost, FD mounts, so you are limited in what you can choose. Finally the Tarmac only comes in disc… this frame was available at the time in rim. So it will always be lighter. I had a customer with a tarmac in my shop who spent at least 20k on his bike setup. He had top of the range titanium and carbon parts on the bike and it was still 6.8kg. My Litespeed at the time cost me $13K Max (not what I paid because I didn’t pay full price for anything on the bike.) and it was 6.4kg.
Interesting video, however I think you spoil some of your pro titanium points by unfairly denigrating other materials and saying that they're unsafe or disposable. A well cared for carbon bike can also last a lifetime. I have a titanium bike and also a carbon bike, they're both fantastic machines and both have their strong points. Also I've seen broken carbon frames and broken ti frames. Carbon is not "fragile" and does not "break easily" during normal riding conditions.
For the most part you are correct. All bike frames can just crack… it’s just more likely to happen with carbon bikes. The basic logic is, if you take a Ti frame and a carbon frame and smack them together what frame will come off worse? 😉
When I was a kid I had an old Schwinn Varsity made of steel so heavy you could pound nails with it. Luckily for my carbon bikes I don't attempt to pound nails with them, I grab a hammer instead 🙃@@reginaldscot165
I have no reason to believe that titanium is not a superior material/metal, but to insinuate that bikes made of carbon or aluminium are unsafe and that they will break/snap or whatever at any moment for no reason is just nonsense. Have ridden aluminium bikes for decades and have never had any such issues. Have not had a carbon bikes or parts of carbon just as long, but have never had any such issues with carbon either. Have never heard of anyone having such problems with their carbon bikes either unless they crashed or clamped them way too hard in a bike stand or bike rack.
Well your first argument is “X never happened to you so X doesn’t happen.” Isn’t a particularly good argument. X has happened to me, it’s happened also to many customers of mine. As I work in a bike shop so I see a lot of examples.
A 2 year old aluminium frame snapped on me literally just riding down a road. 🤷🏻♂️
It can happen with any material, obviously. But, everyone knows that carbon is particularly sensitive to impacts of any kind.
Since I retired my financial situation isn't going to get better so unless someone gives me a titanium frame I'll never have one . (I don't see the lottery as a viable alternative 😁)
Personally, I wouldn't want a carbon bike, they are too easily damaged plus, it's a herd mentality where 'carbon' is king even though damage has been documented by various magazines since the 90's (scraped down a lamp post, ferll onto a kerb edge, etc)
I'm still riding a (very, very) old Muddy Fox 'Trailblazer Tourist', Made in England I converted to hybrid around 1994~5.
It's made with Tange MTB tubes and will probably outlast me, maybe that's why Muddy Fox went bust and now only has 'cheap' Chinese made bikes?
How very true. Safe riding! 🙂👍🏻
I prefer carbon frames. Nuff said 😎💯👍 You sound SALTY 💯
You aren’t alone, most people do… 🐑 🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑🐑
😘
You are using the word 'strong', which is wrong from a materials engineering point of view. It's always best to differentiate between, stiffness (modulus), impact resistance, malleability, tensile strength, compressibility, and other properties: all of which can be mistaken for "strength".
Yes I should refer to the 8 material properties names to be correct. 🙂👍🏻
I don't really see your point when it comes to Carbon vs any type of steel as a frame material. I understand that every material has it´s specific properties. Compared to all of the types of metal, which are mostly bound to their "specific operating boundaries" (strength, flexibility, mass and so on), Carbon (or other types of fiber-reinforced composites) can be greatly altered in it´s properties. You can make flexible carbon parts just like you can make very sturdy ones. Also, carbon has one additional advantage over steel. Not only can the strength be adjusted for different tubes, but it´s also possible to adjust the layup within a section.
I'd say, if you wanted to, you could probably make carbon bikes that feel close to alu, steel or titanium. On the other hand, you can´t really make a carbon bike out of metal. It´s just not possible to adjust metal that much.
Another thing that speaks for carbon are things like aero frames and so on. Bikes which are made out of metal will generally have to follow round tubing while carbon can be shaped in a lot of ways, as long as you get enough strength into a part and bonding/curing is possible. Of course you can also shape metals differently, but the weight will go up significantly for larger parts.
Of course, carbon has the great disadvantage of being fairly brittle once hardened and can break harshly if overstressed or has a load put onto an area that wasn´t designed to withstand that. It´s a complicated material, especially if you use a lot of changing layups. If properly produced & maintained I´d say carbon is superior, but as we know, quality is a mixed bag in such a huge market like the bike industry.
Titanium (which has it´s own challenges when it comes to construction as well) will likely be the more forgiving / reliable material if we talk about biking on your own, away from the pro-peloton. I think it´s fair to advertise that, and I´d love to see it getting a bit more popular here in Germany, apart from some fairly boutique brands.
A bicycle is a tool. You can buy a tool which will break and / or wear out or you can spend a little more money and get a quality tool that will last a lifetime. I see titanium bikes as being that tool. They can be compared to fine German cars. People prefer German made cars over Italian or French because they sell a reliable product that lasts. In fact if taken care of these titanium bicycles will still be an effective tool to help people to go from point A to point B after their original owners are no more. The word to describe titanium is "quality."
@@JohnSmith-nw3zg Yes, but that doesn't really mean that Carbon couldn´t last for so long as well. As long as you don't leave your bike baking in the sun for an eternity, carbon won't just break down even after a long time.
If you crash harshly on a carbon or metal frame both will likely encounter lifetime-damage. In carbon it will the bonding / cracks, with metal the welds could potentially be damaged and break apart. Only difference is that Carbon is more likely to suffer from cracks within any part of the material, whereas metals will often just deform and not fail.
Quality carbon parts from manufacturers like Time, BEAST and so on will likely last a lifetime if they don't suffer some kind of stronger impact damage.
Nice comment!
I’d say that if they can make carbon bikes that feel like titanium then “why don’t they?” (I have ridden a lot of carbon bikes in my job and some are nice but nothing feels like Ti.)
And secondly I’d say even if you could, would it have the other features of a Ti bike? Nope. It wouldn’t be as robust, long lasting, easy to maintain and so on.
It’s a bit like, you could make a kitchen knife 🔪 out of carbon with the flexibility of a steel knife… but nobody would because carbon isn’t suitable knife material. Just because you can doesn’t mean it makes sense, you see?
That’s basically the problem with the bike industry, they tell sweet little lies about how carbon can do everything, it can… but it only does 1 or 2 things well. The rest it mimics poorly.
Yes you can vary the weaves, but in the same way you can mix different alloys. The range of possibilities with alloys is going to be much greater than a weave layup of carbon. And at the end of the day only a few of those possibilities are actually useful for making bikes, some are just too hard or too brittle or not hard enough.
As for aerodynamics, frame aerodynamics is 1% of your drag anyway so not something i worry about. However with hydroforming and now 3D printing the possibilities are endless! As the technology improves (outside of the cycling industry because here there is no demand or interest in improving Ti) we could see lighter and more aerodynamic frames in Ti that can be endlessly recycled. 😁
@@reginaldscot165 Varying materials will in the end always results in some properties being different. I‘d still argue though that you could make carbon bikes that feel very similar to Ti, Al or Steel. It‘s just that it doesnt really make sense to do so. Obviously wall thinkness would likely vary when using carbon for the same shapes.
Using different alloys for different tubes will present a challenge when welding, if possible at all.
Hydroforming and 3D printing with metal powder are pretty interesting options. Both still seem to be fairly niche at this point though.
I‘d like to know where you get that 1% aerodynamic drag thing from. The bike will usually have an influence around 20-40% to my knowledge. Of course ones position should be correct, but I‘d assume that for any given frame when comparing materials.
Titanium frames are pointless. They're like piece of jewellery, if u like it, get some, I don't like jewellery 😅
I think it’s more likely you missed the point rather than there being a lack of one. 😁
@@reginaldscot165 then, why to choose titanium frame? They are heavy and expensive. Have you ever ridden Time RTM carbon frame? My is almost 20 years old, lightweight, stiff, very comfortable, still in great condition. And have a properly sized BB shell, unlike your titanium frame.
This is not objective at all. No "facts" - more titanium magic divination
No facts? At all?
You might have a compression problem. 😳
I love titanium! Yet the only material analysis I have ever seen that would stand muster in an undergrad class came from @peaktorque - everyone else just sounds like because "Merlin told me so." Your other videos rock, especially the Hambearing try hardfest. Show me some numbers!@@reginaldscot165