Don't you want to believe in the Resurrection? | John Lennox at UCLA
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ส.ค. 2024
- John Lennox (Oxford) explores what makes the Christian view of suffering unique. | UCLA, 2015 | View full forum at • Pain: Illusion or Trut... | Explore more at www.veritas.org.
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Over the past two decades, The Veritas Forum has been hosting vibrant discussions on life's hardest questions and engaging the world's leading colleges and universities with Christian perspectives and the relevance of Jesus. Learn more at www.veritas.org, with upcoming events and over 600 pieces of media on topics including science, philosophy, music, business, medicine, and more!
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The screams DO reach Heaven. Mine did, when I was abused. God delivered me, Christ gave me my good portion.. the portion I never got from this world!
Self centered opinion. So what?
Assertions aren't facts
@@jjevans1693Yes. Your assertion isn't a fact.
A real God wouldn't have you suffer at all
"If there is no next life, then your conscience that demands justice is an illusion."
Pretty much
How does that even follow?
“He blows his brains out, he’s gotten away with it!” Definitely something to think about.
yes it sure blows my brain, this story about an "all-knowing" all-loving god can not fix
his sloppy work by any other means than the butchery of Jesus!
God is without sin he took on our sins to redeem us
Add to that the injustice that He never should have experienced death!
amen.
God created sin, according to the Bible... but I find it interesting that the most intelligent thing in the universe, and his best idea was to sacrifice himself,as his son,to himself,in order to appease himself, for a problem that he created
@@lrcavalli290My Take of Your Take
God created sin, according to the Bible.
But I find it interesting that the most intelligent thing in the universe, and his best idea is to sacrifice Himself, in order to justify the forgiveness that we are now bestowed upon through his sacrifice AND to be capable of giving fair judgement unto us, for the problem that WE created by disobeying Him. God is Love
@@ImxxFuZe but Adam and Eve didn't understand that they had disobeyed God until they ate the fruit,so therefore they didn't know it was a sin until after....also.... despite what the Bible says,death was already here... otherwise why would there be a tree of ever lasting life?
I love how Lennox pronounces Jesus
Thank you
John Lennox is brilliant
Brilliant at creating false premises to argue from. To the non delusional he seems phoney and protecting his own interests .
@@jjevans1693come on man 😂 hater
Lots of haters in the comments. These are philosophical discussions. If you want EVIDENCE go to the apologetic sector of discussion. Most of philosophy is not about evidence but possibility and worldview (at least in this context).
conflating and attacking strawmen is a common tactic of the average hater.
Helps them to feel powerful.
I chose not to believe in fantasy. The truth is more exciting.
Dr. Lennox is one of the best scoundrels out there busy milking the fools by preaching religious bs.
One flaw in Dr. Lennox's worldview concerns his definition of hope. To have hope in an afterlife is fine, but to be without that particular hope does not make one "hopeless". I hope my actions will make a better world, but if I choose to focus on this world and not the next I am far from hopeless. Dr. Lennox is a smart man. I think he takes this position about the hopeless atheists because it gives him an easy way to denigrate those who believe differently. To engage in such unskillful speech can only bring suffering.
He is talking about hope beyond this life. Ultimate (just) justice and salvation.
@@cougarbob1776 I'm sure you see it this way, but that's exactly the point. The conversation is about evil and suffering and his assertion is that Christ's resurrection is what gives one hope, and that one without the Christian worldview is hopeless. Sure, his source of hope comes from his belief that things will be better in the afterlife, but that does not make those of us who find hope elsewhere hopeless. His total absorption in his worldview and its afterlife is blinding him to realities in this world.
Without Christ, there is no hope in the afterlife.
@@joeturner9219 Buddhists have a fine belief in an afterlife. Also, why is a hope for an afterlife so important? Why is the hope of a good this life not enough for you?
@@bobs4429Jesus Christ proved that He was who He claimed to be by His Historical resurrection from the dead. Buddhists can't make that claim. While I enjoy this life and the beautiful earth that God created, I know that there is something much MUCH more wonderful and amazing waiting on God's children.
Amen 🙏 7:15
The fact that one might not like the implications of a non-religious view of reality doesn’t mean that this view (the Christian one) or any other religious view is true.
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:
00:27 🕊️ *Christianity's uniqueness lies in the concept of God taking human form and experiencing suffering on behalf of humanity.*
01:40 🔍 *The resurrection of Christ fundamentally changes the perspective on evil and suffering, providing hope beyond death.*
03:46 🏛️ *Without belief in an afterlife or ultimate justice, atheism leaves justice unresolved, a notion Christianity addresses with the concept of final judgment.*
05:52 🌅 *Christianity offers hope beyond suffering, suggesting that even the victims of atrocities may find redemption and justice in the afterlife.*
06:18 💔 *Christianity doesn't eliminate pain but provides profound hope, exemplified by the story of a dying niece who faced death with hope.*
Made with HARPA AI
@@kaykwanu Key reasons Lennox wants it to be true: hope, justice
a dying niece?
God has to give us eyes to see ear's to hear and a heart that understands, the flesh cannot receive it,for it is spiritual, Jesus said you must be born again born of the spirit of God in Christ Jesus our Lord,a spiritual birth,the flesh cannot receive it,it is of the spirit,for God is spirit! KJV
Fool
Why do people believe in things that can't be supportered with facts ? I'd rather have faith in a fellow human being and be disappointted.
False is sweet and truth is bitter sometimes people love sweet thank harsh truth
You seem to say you can only believe what can be proven by empirical science. It's a religion called Scientism. But remember there are many things in life which cannot be proven by "facts", and yet you have faith in them. Love cannot be proven as the first example of myriad others.
I wanted to believe in the tooth fairy and that the teacher would believe the dog ate my homework too. But that doesn’t make it true. Wishful thinking is a waste of time and energy.
1. Gods assuming human form and experiencing suffering is really not unique to Christianity.
2. Atheism lacking what Lennox views to be 'hope' does not preclude it from being accurate. It's an astonishingly childish view to go "things might not be how I want them to be, therefore I shall ignore reality in favour of a complete fantasy I prefer."
3. Lennox still struggling to understand Dawkins - No, justice is not a universal concept. It does not exist in nature, we ultimately make it up as we go along and hope it works, hence why the concept has altered over time. Lennox also started this particular section saying he was looking to see if his views had coherence and again he's stuck on this idea that it would be preferable if there were magic justice and judgement after death --- Still all about what he'd prefer, rather than anything reflecting reality or coherence in any way.
4. "You're essentially saying that your conscience that demands justice is an illusion" - wonderful example of 1+1 = 8. No John, that's not how anything works. That justice isn't a natural concept or objectively delivered by a celestial dictator and is instead completely man-made doesn't mean we don't place value on it. Those people you mentioned did not face human judgement, which is narratively unsatisfying to us because that's what we'd also prefer, but nor did they "get away with it". They're dead. There is no coherence yet to be seen as to how there might be a magic judgement waiting for them in death.
5. "The thing that backs it up is the fact that I believe that Jesus rose from the dead: he's going to be the judge, and nobody's going to get away with it." O.o ...... That doesn't back anything up at all, that's pure wish-thinking. It is truly not a magnificent message, it's childish and frankly asinine.
I don't know why Lennox repeats these terrible misunderstandings and fallacies. It's embarrassing to watch.
@@ohdehhan Because he creates 'doubt' in people's doubt.
@@BillDavies-ej6ye Yeah, I get that it might work if one can't identify the problems with what he says, but what I'm saying is 'Does he intentionally do it with those as a target? Or does he STILL not understand what's wrong with what he says?'
@@ohdehhan He's brighter than you and me put together. But you know people's beliefs over-ride logic, and his intention is to persuade, which he does here by surprise and feelings, not argument.
@@BillDavies-ej6ye Agreed.
And I believe there is another important and contemporary question. And that is "are we witnessing the gradual movement of the (final phase) of the present human existence - like that of the Noah's rains?" The war between Russia and Ukraine... could this be the war that leads to the Armageddon described in the Bible? I may be biblically incorrect, but didn't the Book of Revelation describe the scenes of a nuclear holocaust ensued by the big final war, good vs. evil, that will be fought in Israel? If my belief is correct, then the new heaven and the new earth that God has promised to mankind is just out there ready to be revealed to His chosen creatures but currently it is made unavailable to either Hubble or James Webb space telescopes even though it might be just a few light years away from our home planet. Then finally, voila! Mr. atheist... the proof is out there, and you must be quite disappointed with yourself when the rapture starts taking place and ghosts + people start miraculously flying. However, the good news is NOW at this moment there is still time, and you too can sign your name in The Book of Life. You're at a total liberty to decide. But don't sit there and think that these things are just human illusion or wishful thinking. It will transpire in due time.
If you read your Bible, God he as already decided who goes to heaven and who doesn't
@@lrcavalli290 No, God has not done that. God is being patient that everyone should be saved. This gospel will be preached to the entire world and then the end will come.
@@robertmitchell-tv5yfOf our lives, a failed relationship with God, ignoring Him and having no faith in Him, is a no-no if we want to avoid suffering. God created all things by Himself and for Himself. We may ask: Why did God create all things and why are we here? The answer is God did all this for His own joy. A joy that can be passed to and shared with all living creatures like angels, humans and all other species. It's important for us humans to keep in mind that God created us a little lower than the angels in terms of ranking among all creatures. God says that. Among all other species living alongside us on this planet non has possessed high intellect I call it (intellectual superiority). Only humans have possessed intellectual superiority.
So, why do we suffer when we fail relationship with God? Once again, we have high intellect, and we know wrong from right. So, for any human to be ignoring God or having no faith in Him that would amount to contempt of God. And that is a big NO! NO! We all were born sinful. And from sin there were all sorts of punishments - different degrees. But God the Son came and died for our sin. So, we must accept His love, or we'll bear consequence and pay for our own wage of sin which is quite heavy. He loves us, and He feels pity for our littleness and helplessness. When we turn around with contempt and slap His hand saying I don't want your gift and I don't believe in you, so stay out, that, my friend, is a dangerous failure. The wage of sin is death, and it is tremendously heavy. We can't live on bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God, it's in the Bible, because we have capacity to think and to reason. We can know wrong from right. Living on bread alone (means) you are of another specie other than human. Hope I have answered your question. God bless.
...
To answer the question, no. Blood sacrifices went out a loooong time ago. And I don't have to feel bad about myself like Christians do.
It's not about feeling bad about yourself.
Substitionary atonement doesn't really allow for that
Feeling bad about oneself is not the same thing as guilt. A justly convicted criminal may feel no pangs of conscience , though he still stands guilty in fact.
THE RESURRECTION. ,
The Savior was now (winter) deposited in his tomb. As the Sabbath (winter) was nearing its end, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the sepulchre, bringing sweet spices (the spring flowers) with them. They found the stone rolled away, i.e., it was spring. Mary ran to Peter (Aries) and told him the Savior's body wasn't in the tomb (winter). Peter, of course, was badly scared, and ran off with another disciple (Pisces) but got outrun, the last passing the Sun first. However, both found the “linen clothes” = the Earth. All then went home, i.e., the two sets of constellations (winter and summer) came into position at the spring equinox. Meanwhile “the vail of the temple (intereaspansum templi = the plane of the solstices) was rent (scissum est = was divided) from the top to the bottom, and the earth did quake (mota est = was moved, i.e., over the equinoctial line); and the rocks were rent” by the dissolving frosts. The graves were opened, i.e., the winter was past, and “many saints” (summer constellations) which slept (in the dark hemisphere) arose, and appeared to many, i.e., to such as understood the riddle.
Mary stood without, at the sepulchre,” weeping (the latter rain); and as she wept, she stooped down (went below the equator), and, looking, saw two angels in white (the light of spring), sitting, one (Aries) at the head, and the other (Pisces) at the feet (see your almanac), where the body of Jesus had lain. “Why weepest thou?” said the angels. Because, said Mary, I cannot find my Lord. Being a night constellation, she couldn't see the Sun. Turning back just then (Lot's wife looked back), she saw Jesus standing, but didn't know him. He addressed her, when, turning again, she knew him (but didn't see him), and exclaimed Rabboni (My great one). Jesus said, “touch me not;” for I am not ascended to my Father (the Holy Ghost). The Sun and Virgo don’t come in conjunction until the end of the summer. Hence in the spring Jesus said to her: “touch me not;” “but go and tell my brethren that I ascend unto my father, and your Father; and to my God and your God” (Sun entered Aries).
Wait a minute... Didn't Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus already bury Jesus with 100 lb of spices
@@lrcavalli290
See...Career of Jesus Christ, by Milton Woolley.
@@harveywabbit9541 uh huh...no thank you... I'll leave the fairy tales to others... besides... I've already read a book about fairy tales... it's called the Bible
@@lrcavalli290
Fairy tales presented as history.
@@harveywabbit9541 but still fairy tales, nevertheless
A personal god who cares about what you eat and what you wear and who you sleep with is preposterous.
"The world is unjust. I can't believe in a God who would allow that. I also can't believe in a God who would punish injustice with eternal separation from the just. Therefore, I choose to believe in a godless universe where justice is nonexistent, and where meaning and free will and morality are illusions." How does that make sense to anyone but crime lords???
If no one will ever be raised from death then Christ has never been raised.
And if Christ has never been raised, then the message we tell is worth nothing.
And your faith is worth nothing.
And we will also be guilty of lying about God, because we have told people about Him, saying that He raised Christ from death.
And if no one is raised from death, then God never raised Christ from death.
If those who have died are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. And if Christ has not been raised from death, then your faith is for nothing; you are still guilty of your sins.
And those in Christ who have already died are lost.
If our hope in Christ is only for this life here on earth, then people should feel more sorry for us than anyone else.
_1 Corinthians 15:13-19_
...interesting that the Bible would include this...🤔
huh.
THE RESURRECTION. ,
The Savior was now (winter) deposited in his tomb. As the Sabbath (winter) was nearing its end, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the sepulchre, bringing sweet spices (the spring flowers) with them. They found the stone rolled away, i.e., it was spring. Mary ran to Peter (Aries) and told him the Savior's body wasn't in the tomb (winter). Peter, of course, was badly scared, and ran off with another disciple (Pisces) but got outrun, the last passing the Sun first. However, both found the “linen clothes” = the Earth. All then went home, i.e., the two sets of constellations (winter and summer) came into position at the spring equinox. Meanwhile “the vail of the temple (intereaspansum templi = the plane of the solstices) was rent (scissum est = was divided) from the top to the bottom, and the earth did quake (mota est = was moved, i.e., over the equinoctial line); and the rocks were rent” by the dissolving frosts. The graves were opened, i.e., the winter was past, and “many saints” (summer constellations) which slept (in the dark hemisphere) arose, and appeared to many, i.e., to such as understood the riddle.
Mary stood without, at the sepulchre,” weeping (the latter rain); and as she wept, she stooped down (went below the equator), and, looking, saw two angels in white (the light of spring), sitting, one (Aries) at the head, and the other (Pisces) at the feet (see your almanac), where the body of Jesus had lain. “Why weepest thou?” said the angels. Because, said Mary, I cannot find my Lord. Being a night constellation, she couldn't see the Sun. Turning back just then (Lot's wife looked back), she saw Jesus standing, but didn't know him. He addressed her, when, turning again, she knew him (but didn't see him), and exclaimed Rabboni (My great one). Jesus said, “touch me not;” for I am not ascended to my Father (the Holy Ghost). The Sun and Virgo don’t come in conjunction until the end of the summer. Hence in the spring Jesus said to her: “touch me not;” “but go and tell my brethren that I ascend unto my father, and your Father; and to my God and your God” (Sun entered Aries).
The Gospels create a powerful image, such as to see it is to believe it, but it is a mirage.
As you get closer to it begins to lose substance and coherence.
The question is: What are you left with after the illusion has gone?
The answer is 'The Word of God' - no ifs, no buts.
So do you believe it is God's word or do you believe it's a mirage?
Lennox is confusing what he himself hope for with what is true. That an idea is hopeful does not mean it is true. You cannot justify the truth of an idea by pointing out that it is hopeful. It is doubtful to have rational discussion with him when even this simple distinction cannot be upheld.
How do you define what is true?
You show that like Lennox, you dunno if Christianity is true, but hope that it is true. If mixing hope and truth up is what you are so inclined to do, so be it.
You sound like Pontius Pilate - "What is truth?", when the Truth was stood right in front of him. This One who is the Truth is also our hope because of His resurrection. The Son of God doesn't tell lies. I for one believe Him.
An so the cat continues to chase his tail. You can prove the existence of god, but only to your self.
Unfortunately one likes evidence not written hearsay.
I have observed that rational logical intelligence and religion seldom mix well with each other. Personally I think that the most difficult challenge Religion faces is in convincing Artificial Intelligence of the validity of their beliefs because AI doesn't have a soul to worry about losing and may not accept religion but instead see it as more of a fairy-tale explanation of existence and reality. If you don't care what machines think then you don't yet grasp the magnitude of what is coming at us or virtually here already. I might suggest watching the Terminator or I Robot for a glimpse.
Sweet
It’s incredible how someone who claims to be a mathematician and therefore function at a high level of logic and rationality could continue to babble with all seriousness about resurrection and ultimate justice. Isn’t he aware that his believe in ultimate justice is because he has been indoctrinated with the idea of fairness of life, which as a ‘ thinker’ he should know that the fairness is a cultural development not a natural thing. As humans gether as groups, tribes, society , fairness to all becomes a central principle keep people in order. Life is not fair or unfair. It just is. Justice is for the living, to keep things in order and to give meaning and satisfaction to an otherwise meaningless life. Life is how we made of it. The difference between Christianity and eastern philosophy like Confucianism is that one is about death and the other is about living - how an individual, family up to the leader of the country could live a meaningful, harmonious, life. Instead of wasting your life today to plan for a good afterlife. Can you see the rationality of one and the irrationality of the other. It’s some simple and clear, yet the madthematician continue with his absurdity. Truth is simple. There is no need for his convoluted stories. If there is a fair god, why would he endowed a clown like him deep understanding of god while depriving an ordinary guy like me of understanding him.
JC Lennox doesn't "claim to be a mathematician." He is an Emeritus Professor of Mathematics at Oxford.
If atheism is true, then Confucianism is false. You cannot live a meaningful life, because nothing in the universe has meaning. Irrational double-talk.
Besides this, you totally ignore the commandments within Christianity to do good to others in this life.
As for your last question: Perhaps God deprived you of the ability to understand Him, because you continually rejected His revealed truth, and now God has determined to make an example of you. I hope for your sake that that is not the case.
For being a “learned” person with a reputation for defending supernaturalism eloquently Lennox obviously (whether he sees it or not) has taken an assumption (some sort of conscious life after death) and turned it into a fact in order for anyone to have hope (in the future). The truly disturbing part is such a person evidently sees there’s no good reason to live THIS life UNLESS there’s some more fantastical existence in the great beyond. It’s seems as though his very existence is premised upon the idea this life is a precondition, a test if you will, for entry into something more permanent, immortality. It’s ALL wishful thinking. Does god simply create souls out of thin air or even mere thought? What would souls consist of, some super material that carries a consciousness? If such things exist, where was Your soul/consciousness BEFORE you were born? And how is a soul retained by a physical body since a soul (as spirit) should be free to leave a body anytime. If Lennox’s life or anyone else is so distraught about a physical existence and so confident there’s something far better in the beyond there’s always the option of self-termination. Most people probably aren’t familiar with early (Catholic) church doctrine formation. One in particular dealt with a phenomenon in the 3-4th centuries when believers were committing suicide to be United with Jesus. The church’s response? Suicide became a sin. Reason? The church was concerned about losing too many of their flocks. After all, dead people can’t continue to hand money over to the church, the smaller their flicks the less political influence the church would have and the fewer bodies the church would have to do what the church wanted done in the form of acquiring land, construction of buildings, etc.
Let's settle the issue, call Jesus back and let him perform all his miracles in a lab under scientifically controled circumstances!
After all that couldn't be too difficult since he is resurrected. So I presume he is still alive and he is probably living on another planet in another Galaxy!
You’re not the first one on that bus. Jesus answered your objection directly:
“But Jesus replied, “Only an evil, adulterous generation would demand a miraculous sign; but the only sign I will give them is the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.”
-Matthew 12:39,40
You cant expect people believe all mystic dogmas.and pointless you sayin ım believer or not.all emotıons instinct.
I think the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus is mythological, symbolic of a spiritual change he went through. When the brow chakra or spiritual center awakens, the self dies(the crucifixion), and then when the crown chakra awakens, there is a rebirth(the resurrection). Zen Buddhism calls the death of the self as "The Great Death" and many shamans talk about going through a type of death.
Weak
"IF the central claims of Christianity are true, Jesus Christ rose from the dead."
Yeah, and IF the claims of Islam are true, Mohammad split the moon in two.
Well done, John.
Christianity is an evidence based faith…… swing and a miss Peter.
@@truthseeker5698 Wow. I really don't know how to respond to that. Hahaha! Have a good day, anyway.
Lots of people apparently rose from the dead during the time of Christ. Lazerus? The other namely people that rose up from the graveyard? Please.... Luckily no evidence of all of any of that nonsense.
@@markgrein4618 are you suggesting Jesus never rise from the dead?
What B S.😅
Given that a resurrection claim literally contradicts evidence, we cannot take it seriously
God can do that. No one else can.
Actually when weighed against the existing evidence, there is more to suggest that it is factual than fiction. In fact, so much more fact about it than popular history that is believed with far less evidence.
@@chrispusmutabuuza6119 Amen
Which evidence can you claim as support to this deduction? I'll wait...
It was a complete human body that was resurrected, all organs present and all body parts, It just needed a kick start. While if you think about it, in reality people who dismiss the idea of a creator have nothing more to start with than a rock. If even that.🤣
Well why UCLA? I just can’t listen to anything coming out of UCLA. God went to USC.