The Gift of Pain | John Lennox at Harvard Medical
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ส.ค. 2023
- John Lennox (Oxford) explores how God could be loving in the middle of a horrible illness or disease. | Harvard Medical School, 10/3/2014 | View full forum at • The Loud Absence: Wher... | Explore more at www.veritas.org.
Want Veritas updates in your inbox? Subscribe to our twice-monthly newsletter here:
www.veritas.org/newsletter-yt
INSTAGRAM: / veritasforum
FACEBOOK: / veritasforum
PODCAST: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast...
SUBSCRIBE: th-cam.com/users/subscription_...
Over the past two decades, The Veritas Forum has been hosting vibrant discussions on life's hardest questions and engaging the world's leading colleges and universities with Christian perspectives and the relevance of Jesus. Learn more at www.veritas.org, with upcoming events and over 600 pieces of media on topics including science, philosophy, music, business, medicine, and more!
John Lennox is a true treasure for our age
Praise the Lord that he has been raised up to proclaim our Lord Jesus to so many!
I can identify with your experience Dr. Lennox. I had an aortic dissection event. I internally lost 12 pints of blood and was totally paralysed from the waist down. During a 12 hour open heart surgery, my heart stopped for 25 minutes. The doctors used a defribulator three times and failed. My body was covered as my surgeon here in Hong Kong was writing my death certificate-yet the Lord God had other plans and touched my heart by His direct intervention. I later came out of a deep coma three days later. My paralysis was temporary and the sense of touch came back to my toes and I was able to walk again after 4 weeks of physiotherapy. That incident happened on December 07, 2014 and I am still alive and living an active life today. Why did the Lord heal me when most sufferers of an aortic dissection die from internal blood loss? The Lord of Scripture and history intervenes according to His good pleasure. But my response to His intervention is to daily take up my cross and follow Him. That is experienced in spiritual formation by His sovereign grace and mercy. By His grace; for His glory.
Glad you are still here❤
@@StillYHWHs Thank you-almost 9 years from that event and by God’s grace, I am still around. 😃✝️♥️🔥💪🏻
HALLELUJAH! 🎉
I love your testimony and appreciation of God doing things according to His pleasure, yet our encouragement to put our faith in Him. It calms us
@@louisadu-amoah1504 Thanks be to the Lord our God. May He keep us strong in faith and fervent in love.
I asked God to help me with 2 issues. I was constantly afraid and never felt I was loveable. 7 years later after battling cancer 3 times and surviving my child s drug addiction (which was worse) I can confidently say I know God loves me and I'm no longer afraid.
That was a fantastic answer!
I love John Lennox. I listen to him as much as I can.
I thank God for finding and seeing this video
In our comfort zone, we feel secure. Outside of it it with problem, uncertainty and without hope, we probably will be heaped with more problems, more insecurity and desperations. As believers of Lord Jesus, we may also face this outside our comfort zone. As you, Dr. John Lennox, said it, and rightly so, 'my Christian faith is not an abstract belief in a theory it's a living relationship with a person'. All believers must come to the wonderful intimate relationship with the person of Lord Jesus Christ. Our hope is the Lord.
For this reason we never become discouraged. Even though our physical being is gradually decaying, yet our spiritual being is renewed day after day. And this small and temporary trouble we suffer will bring us a tremendous and eternal glory, much greater than the trouble. For we fix our attention, not on things that are seen, but on things that are unseen. What can be seen lasts only for a time, but what cannot be seen lasts forever.
2 Corinthians 4:16-18 GNT
Christians who believe in Jesus have what is needed to reach out to others who want answers to life’s pain. They can show a love that is patient and kind. They do give hope to the despairing. In the face of physical death there is a far better existence to look forward to. No more pain or tears there. All is good and beautiful there. God’s perfect love is shown in the face of Jesus His Son.
Wonderful man of God wonderful reply deeply reassuring
Great question so far , I hope the answer is right and helpful
Stunning point and as ever so well made . Thank you John L. Blessings and appreciation from Sydney Australia .
Lennox may appear to be an eloquent orator but that does not mean every conclusion he's come to is in fact "true" or supported by empirical evidence. People should be "truth seekers" and not just information that helps them feel better about themselves.
AWESOME 🙏🙏🙏
sooo profound...
St Padre Pio …“Suffering is the currency of God”. We are instructed to “imitate Jesus” especially enduring suffering PATIENTLY, for “patience is perfect and entire, failing in nothing”. Christ’s suffering crucifixion for us saved us. Our suffering has the same power.
What would you say to someone who has 2 minutes left to live and they want to know how they can be saved?
Unfortunately your comments seem to contain both truth and distortion or lack of clarity. You say that Christ’s pain crucifixion saved us. But the suffering component in itself did not provide redemption. It is only because He took our sin upon Himself and that the Father judged our sin upon His only unique Son who bore our sins that we are saved.
@bjornegan6421 I'd say, pray, and ask Jesus to forgive your sins and have faith that Jesus loves, all of us.
All I can say, is that I'm glad not to be a believer in this immoral religious world view.
@@iainrae6159 May I ask if you mean you are glad not to be a believer in the world view of catholicism, or a Biblical worldview (Christian), or the concept of 'religion'?
Keep in mind we are souls who have a body. Our bodies may suffer but our souls are dead until the Holy Spirit brings them to life. The body is temporary but the souls in forever. As my body suffers physically my focus is on the eternity of my soul. Pray for those souls who are dead that they may come to life through the Holy Spirit and our King…. King Jesus.
Thank you ❤️🙏
Very good topic. 👍
Thank God
truth is we really do not, cannot understand pain as a conduit to God. Some things in our existence are mysteries, not that they cannot be known, but that they are out of our reach of understanding, we will some day in the next life have revelation of these mysteries. Lennox and many more great minds have tried to address this topic, all fall short.
How could they ever answer it?
Reading Lewis' book again now... Can't wait to hear Professor Lennox 0:54
Life is not meant to be perfect. Suffering, as horrifying as it is for many, is a part of life. Only through pain does one understand happiness and gratitude. Only through sadness and loss can one understand joy. Lives are learning experiences that teach us the deeper meaning of life. Having your heart broken and finding love with another - that would not happen if we had everything planned for us. We would essentially be cold robots. In the grand scheme of things, our physical lives are temporary. They pale in comparison to the eternal lives that we are - we are part of God and created in his image. So when you look at the grand scheme, the temporary suffering is nothing. I know this is not a perfect answer, but that is what I have rested with as I have thought of this.
Well said. God could have programmed everything and all of us tot be perfect, but that is not the purpose of our earthly existence. How could we appreciate live and heavenly if we did not experience the absence of live and the pains of life on earth
I think the idea is... if you can take lemons and make lemonade you can enjoy some sweetness in life.
But joy, satisfaction and peace aren't guaranteed.
Not even with the "right attitude".
Context matters... changing the meaning and value of things.
Another person's struggles and suffering can at least be held against our own lives so we appreciate what we have.
Is that selfishness or survival?
Is it unfair?
Should we dwell in suffering so the pained don't feel their torment alone?
Or should we live and make life worth living, honoring the gift we're given that the dying and disadvantaged would deserve more than us if we take it for granted?
This is about perspective, meaning, making the most of things.
And like anything that lives, it's a spirit that has to be fed.
So let there be beauty in the things you do, and that will be your honor.
i know its hard while you are still suffering on earth but when you pass from this life and you are w God,. Now you have a new life w an incorruptible body, no more mental or physical suffering, everything is beautiful, you are living in your own mansion, everyone is great company, no more cheating or lying, no more boredom or lonelines, you are in ecstacy because your senses are heightened, plus the extra extra extra excitement you will experience in heaven AND THIS WILL NEVER END. God will ask you was it all worth it? the answer is a resounding yes even to an innocent child that suffered on earth. You cannot judge only what God is doing on earth. You have to consider heaven w/c is all part of our journey. May God have mercy on us.
At the existential level, if you have to suffer, and almost everyone will have to suffer in one way or another at some point in their life, then it's "easier" (not that it's easy) to suffer as a Christian than as an atheist (to take two examples), for the Christian believes in an afterlife, the resurrection of the dead, and all the rest of what the Bible teaches. This gives the Christian hope. By contrast, if there's nothing after death, then once a loved one is dead, that's it. They're gone forever. There's no hope past death. Death ends all. "We do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, concerning those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who have no hope" (1 Thess 4:13).
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner.
Perhaps the lesson in awful diseases and disorders is to carry the cross without any understanding, forgive and love God - That is my own experience
Read Job chapters1&2. God pulls back the veil and shows us who's behind pain and suffering. Jesus even said in the parable of the wheat and the tares, "the enemy done this."
Too much WISDOM from John Lennox
And that's exactly why you should send him more money. ;-)
Brother John, God created (past) the heavens and the earth, and Adam, and by man's choice left the rest to nature.
No matter how much someone tries to tell me it's a gift of pain. Pain is no gift trust me. Or don't trust me I still don't see it as a gift.
The gift is whatever you learn around the circumstance. Whatever we teach around the circumstance.
OK...can you learn something from pain?...yes you can...so by your own standards it can be considered a gift.
Some "gifts" are usable to the receiver and some are seemingly useless; just as in material gifts, the receiver has to choose whether to cast the gift off or consider it as unfortunate or to FIND a use for it....only then can we utilize the terminology stated as a "gift" as we have to to know it in the English language
@sallymillians4566 Again, Pain is not a gift. The gifts come out of what happens through that pain. Through the suffering. Those who meet due to it. How we communicate with one another. What we have to teach. Please use proper words to get point across. To say pain is the gift. Is in proper. It is all that surround it. That is the gift.
@@sallymillians4566 You make an excellent point!
KJV Hebrews 4:14-15
14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
TH-cam why pain and suffering by David Assherick
Still waiting for him to answer the question
Christ, the cross, the resurrection - bring the opportunity to have HOPE by deciding to BELIEVE in Christ, the cross, the resurrection. The answer is HOPE.
@karabomothupi9759
Are you searching for happiness, or truth?
You didn't understand did you?
John Lennox is one of the few to practice the Biblical injunction as stated in the first letter to the Corinthians. 1 Corinthians 8:2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
The answer is from the Bible. All things lost shall be restored!
Pain can be a great mystery and sometimes, alas, medical science cant help. The problem is that others cannot see your pain it is masked unlike other disabilities and so it may not appear real although it is very real to the sufferer.
Thomas saw the 'risen Christ' after witnessing most if not all of the alleged miracles and only then believed. I'm with Thomas. Bring on the proof.
I tend to believe that because the event is even described in the New Testament would give reason to think twice about it. Kind of like telling us all here is how difficult it is to believe in such a supernatural event. Thomas, like you said, seen all the miracles firsthand, seen Jesus crucified. Now suddenly he is standing in front of him in a room with all the other disciples apparently appearing out of nowhere and he still doesn't believe its him. I find that as amazing as the event itself if you think about it and why we will never have proof so don't go looking for it.
That is a cop out. If he thinks pain us great I will gladly give him all of mine. Such a crock.
This is like “Hey! Slavery is a gift! So get back to work and be thankful. Tell that to the slaves of the world. Yes, faith can help everyone and anyone go through pain and persecution more easily, but for me, pain is not a “gift”. Daddy always said “Son, attitude is everything.” God gave us the gift of choosing attitude. Faith gives me the ability absorb a more healthy and even mostly pain free attitude. Thank you Jesus fir giving us as individuals freedom to choose.
At least Lennox honestly answers that he can’t reconcile God and evil. He gets interviews with academia because he’s an academician but in reality he is simply a preacher
A preacher is more valuable than an academic...a preacher hears from God and discloses it...an academic hears from the vanity of his own darkened mind and infects people .
@@markanthony3275 who’s God?
@@kurtdvetThe only true God...the God of the Bible...the only God that man didn't invent because He invented man. You say "what proof is there" ? Look at the Biblical prophecies regarding the rise and fall of His people Israel, and then look at a map of the middle east at Israel and ask yourself why is it that a tiny obscure nation came back to life and back to it's land after being destroyed and dispersed 2000 years ago? And the answer is...because the God of Israel who is the creator of heaven and earth kept His word.
He is actually both and I would say a much better Academician than either Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins or Stephen Hawking. But really what intellectual or academician is not a preacher of some faith--secular or religious. Faith in reason and human mind is perhaps the most basic. A Marxist Professor like Angela Davis is certainly a Preacher, a missionary for Marxism and Maoism. If you don't admit that then you are not being intellectually honest.
@@kurtdvet
Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one God.
Deuteronomy 6:4
Yes, those double-bind questions really hurt, the mental gymnastics John has to do,
So he can defend this psychotic god of the bible is beyond belief
Interesting though, why you keep listening.
Jesus has gone through anything pain emotions everything any person deals with. He is our Mighty Savior...Yes Hope. Please don't blame God for cancer ect.
Babbeling again - lennox will not stop -
Atheism has something, atheism has OZELOT
Why can't we see that there is good and evil, therre is Satan and God. Anything bad is from the deceiver, Satan and everything good is from God. God uses the bad things that happen to us and turn it around for our own good but it was never His intention nor Hisplan for such bad things to happen. When we realize and accept the cosmic battle between good and evil then we see the reasons why things happen the way they do.
Amen
Which branch of christianity are you ?
@deguilhemcorinne418 branch? Unless we have a real view of God and His goodness and grace we shall always be clueless on why things are. There is always a struggle between good and evil, God and Satan
@@aelf6677 Jehovah Witness ?
@deguilhemcorinne418 what does that have to do with the origin of good and evil? Are you on the topic or issue or more on personalities?
Orrrrrr...... maybe God could act and take the pain away from, say, innocent children. Of course, that implies he actually has the power and the love.
Fear is worse than pain. The woman with mental illness wished for cancer, because of the torment of fear. Jesus suffered pain. Pain is unavoidable but fear is not, because of what Jesus has done for us. Our temporary circumstances are doing their best to distract us from the reality of eternity. This world is under judgment our only hope is Christ. There is a world to come where pain doesn’t exist. If we confess our sin and TRUST in Christ’s righteousness alone to atone for our sin we will see that promise! Now is the acceptable time!
Or it could be that God is very, very bored and finds some cheap thrill in suffering like those who watch gore videos.
You obviously haven't tried Pancreatitis which is agony beyong belief. This is obviously a gift from "THE BIG MAN" upstairs.😂😂😂
Lennox claims he doesn’t have an explanation for the existence of pain and its relevance to god. He’s definitely in target, there is no rationale for pain other than it’s directly related to the material universe and our individual presence in it. The supernatural has NOTHING to do with pain. Mother Teresa had claimed , as does the Catholic Church, that pain is a mechanism for strengthening a person’s character and/or spirit in preparation for going on to the beyond. There were documented incidents of people in her care who she knew were going to die and she purposely withheld food and medical care because she believed it would be good for getting into heaven. Not TOO significantly different than 21st Century suicide bombers who believe their pain and sacrifice would aid them in getting into heaven. Of course none of those beliefs can be supported with actual evidence. So, for any rational person the subject of purposeful pain and its relationship to the afterlife is ludicrous. There is NO defense of god in this situation. Assuming god is real though there is an explanation and reason to place judgement upon god as the culprit. IF, god created the universe and being omnipresent which is often claimed, god purposely created pain as well because pain is a NATURAL consequence of living beings in a material universe. That’s because MATTER is inherently IMPERFECT. There is no such thing as perfect matter. Perfection means something is so universal, so unique, that it would become imperfect we’re it to “change”. Well, matter is ALWAYS in a state of change, it’s the very nature of matter. The kicker is, god should’ve known that Before the material universe was created. If god didn’t, then god isn’t perfect either. And god should’ve known that pain would be a natural part of US living in such a universe. Thus, pain is the direct result of godly creation. There’s another explanation of course… there simply is no god and we all live in a material universe of which we (as yet) don’t fully know of its origin.
Define perfection. Is it having no problems, no suffering, no heartache, no worries, nothing but endless joy? How would you know that is joy, and not just normal? What is joy but a feeling that is in comparison to what one knowingly dreads (meaning a painful result)? You look at the world’s religions and you see they all generally agree that suffering is purposeful and points one to enlightenment in some form. What would we be if the aforementioned “perfection” were our reality? We would be nothing but robots. And one would have to ask, is being a robot truly perfection? I would say no. As to your other points, we do live in a material universe. To assume our five senses = all reality is a fallacy and is incredibly arrogant. That is to say that to assume materialism requires immense faith. I also draw heavy question with your putting god, whomever he is (I am not putting forth the “Christian God” in this rebuttal), in a predefined box as if you, in your small worldview, would understand the complexities of reality. Understand that “perfection” is subjective. In the Judeo-Christian worldview, “perfection” in creation can easily be seen in what is an ordered universe that all science takes for granted. To ground your argument of the existence of god in the fact that our universe is seemingly not “perfect,” whatever that means, makes little sense because we have no “perfect” objective to compare it to except one we imagine.
@@BabyBugBug Definition[s] of Perfect; flawless, accurate, absolute, unequivocal, need more? The idea of "perfect" was being used in conjunction with the idea of god. God is often described as the "perfect" being. It obviously does not apply to anything in the natural world. If god were a perfect being and is the creator of everything then god is also the creator of original sin because sin is just a religious word for imperfect. As far as suffering goes, that's a stance of the christian church, that suffering induces "character" to the human soul [which doesn't exist]. We obviously are not "robots" even robots would not be capable of perfection since they are made out of matter and matter is imperfect. So if god created the universe and the universe is made of matter then god introduced sin into existence by making a universe of matter.
@@msmd3295Your premise rests on the argument that matter is by default imperfect and always will be. Quite an assumption. What is your evidence of this and how do you know your definition of imperfection is the correct one?
@@BabyBugBug It's NOT an assumption. The very fact that matter is in a constant state of "change" means it's NOT perfect. Philosophically and logically if something is "perfect" then it would become IMPERFECT were it to change. Might I suggest you do some studying about the philosophical notion of Perfection. There is only one state for a "thing" to be perfect. It's not an assumption. If a perfect thing were to change then it would no longer be the thing that it Was. The very nature of matter and that it constantly changes means it is not perfect.
@@msmd3295So your personal definition of perfection is something that never changes. Is this correct? From where do you draw this hard truth that you are so sure of? Someone else? How do you know this is true?
Lennox should stick to what he knows, eating pies.
God's gift to John seems to have been donuts.
Evidence-free, logically fallacious proclamations delivered with that same smug, animated arrogance that characterizes so many of these apologists. Lennox is the master of saying an awful lot without actually saying anything of substance. He’s the master of producing zero actual evidence. Oh boy is he evasive, sly and actually downright dismissive too. He likes to display an air of piety and feel "sorry" for atheists, while he hand waves away accusations against the Church by non-believers as though they simply don't understand enough of the situation.
All I see in your retort is exactly what you criticize him of doing. I suggest you read what you wrote and try to do the mental gymnastics to come to a different conclusion.
Whether or not heaven exists, Lennox sounds precisely how a scientist should not sound when he doesn’t know what he is talking about. Claims that some form of consciousness persists after our bodies die and decay into their constituent atoms face one huge, insuperable obstacle.There's no way to allow for the information stored in our brains to persist after we die.
Quantum Field Theory proves that there is no afterlife for the souls of the deceased to go to. Each type of particle has a field within the universe - one for photons, another for electrons and an additional one for every kind of particle. No 'spirit' particles have been discovered by quantum tests, which would point to no afterlife existing. If God is unable to prevent cancer, then he is not all-powerful. If God is not willing to prevent cancer then he is not all-good. If God is both willing and able to prevent cancer, then why does cancer exist? You either have a God who sends brain tumors to children so they suffer 'the gift of pain' or you have a God who watches them suffer - until the end - and then says "OK you can go to Heaven now". If I could stop a child from having cancer I would do. That's the difference between me and Lennox's God. Lord save us from your followers....@@BabyBugBug