I find it so interesting when people don’t evaluate the truthfulness of the Book of Abraham under a basic probabilistic framework. What is the probability that Joseph Smith, a person with very little formal education, no formal training in the ancient world, no training in the Egyptian world, no record that he spent a bunch of time studying it on his own, writes this document set in ancient Egypt in which he gets anything right whatsoever? Remember, during this time he is trying establish and grow a young church/religion, establish various physical communities, care for his family and friends, and many other things. What is the probability that he gets anything right is such a document, let alone many things right and many things that that were not known at the time in the world of Egyptology. Every time he gets something right those probabilities stack, making it that much more unlikely and that much more likely to be done under inspiration. To me, the probabilities have stacked so high that any supposed discrepancies or problems with the text are now just a matter of time before we discover that he got those right too. It seems to be complete common sense to me. Stack up those probabilities, and see where you stand. The Book of Abraham is true.
It seems to me that that someone receiving revelation should be correct on like 90% of things, leaving 10% for human error or at least the majority of things. So to me, if you get one or two things right, and A LOT wrong, it seems like either you suck at getting or jotting down revelation, or you're just making stuff up
@@LoganJarrell I would respond to that by saying a couple of things. 1) Making broad judgments about what percentage of things he got right and what percentage he got wrong operates under the assumption that we are virtually certain that we understand the ancient world, its culture, the events that took place, the many variations of thought and belief among the people, etc. Sure, we do know a good chunk with some confidence, but it’s likely a much smaller portion of the reality of the ancient world than we like to pretend to understand. That’s why he talked about in the video how Hugh Nibley was upset that someone held him to something he said four years ago. I mean, we have legitimate scholars making legitimate arguments trying to understand the 1980’s. So, saying with confidence that Joseph Smith had X percent right and X percentage wrong seems to me to be a bit presumptuous to say the least. 2)The authors of this work and other pro-Book of Abraham authors, who are legitimate scholars of the ancient world and ancient Egypt, have demonstrated that we can say with pretty good confidence that Joseph got many more than just one or two things right. Now, let’s say that, according to our current understanding, we can say with confidence that he got 5 things right. Let’s say that he had a 1/100 chance of guessing each of those things right (I think that is a very generous probability). That would put the probability of him getting all five right at 1 in 10 billion. I would say that the current evidence suggests that he got many more than 5 things right and the real probability of him guessing those things right is much smaller than 1/100. So, if I were strictly placing my money on whether it was written by guessing or inspiration, rationality would make me lean toward inspiration. That is apart from the spiritual witness of the book that I feel I have had.
@@andrewbfrost7021 Sometimes the semantics get in the way, of classifying things as either hits or misses. I think a more productive conversation is one of "evidence of revelation or evidence of fraud". I know fraud is a strong word, and I don't use it disrespectfully. Here's where I come down on it. Joseph Smith clearly references the facimilies a few times in the text, so they are inseparably linked to the BoA. They are described in the text as being things that we know today to be other, different things. In facsimile 3 for example, JS's explanation states that the figure's names are stated above their heads. Not only does he get the names wrong, but many of the genders as well. These are not nebulous things that we're still trying to understand. These are clear, and objective facts. And he got them wrong.
@@brucenorth5337 I feel like I disputed it though. You make 600 claims or things that can be shown right or wrong, some will be right or even close. But if you claim to be called of God, your ratio should be higher than 10%. It's not enough to get 5 things right or close
Why are there no manuscripts for chapters 3-5? There is a huge shift in those chapters from 1-2 (which do have manuscripts) as it jumps from monotheism to polytheism.
Bruce H. Porter has suggested that Joseph Smith translated additional chapters on the Book of Abraham which weren't prepared for publication before his death. Will the Church every publish these chapters?
I wish one of these videos would spend less time saying "oh trust me the BoA is air-tight!" and more time honestly addressing some of the valid and damaging criticisms of the book. ONE TIME. I wish just ONCE they would respectfully invite a critic to one of these things.
Good sir @LoganJarrell, Thy yearning for a balanced discourse on matters of faith, particularly concerning the Book of Abraham, is both understood and deeply respected. Indeed, it is written, "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good" (1 Thessalonians 5:21). It is in the proving, the seeking, and the questioning that our faith may be refined as gold through fire. The scriptures, including those within The Book of Mormon: another testament of Jesus Christ, invite all to come unto Christ and partake of His goodness; and through the earnest seeking of truth, we are promised that He will manifest the truth of it unto us, by the power of the Holy Ghost (see Moroni 10:4-5). The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints doth ever strive to engage in open dialogue and encourages the seeking of truth from all sources, affirming that all truth is part of our Heavenly Father’s plan and that all individuals are entitled to their own revelation through sincere prayer and study. In the spirit of truth-seeking and understanding, it would indeed be of great worth to have an open forum where respectful critics might dialogue with faithful scholars. It is through such respectful discourse that greater understanding can be reached, and all parties may be edified, regardless of the diversity of their views. May we all approach such conversations with open hearts and minds, ever ready to listen, to learn, and to love, that we may grow "with the increase of God" (Colossians 2:19). With a sincere heart and an open mind, Bud
What I have found from the critics over the years is that the Book of Abraham text is not the same as the Book of Breathings text (obviously not), the lion couch scene is run of the mill (it is not, as anyone has seen many lion couch scenes can attest), and the "translations" of facsimile 2 are wrong (except Joseph did not give translations of those, he gave explanations of the figures which is very different). I just don't think any critic can bring much to the table when they can't even get basic things correct.
First of all, he did NOT say that it's air-tight. He admitted that there are definitely gaps in our best theories. But this talk wasn't even ABOUT the content of the Book of Abraham; it was about the new guide being published, which collates existing evidence and theories, and addresses shortcomings and knowledge gaps. Talk about missing the point...
I’m sorry, this is just smoke and mirrors. 1. State that this book is plausible, whatever that means. 2. Use a bunch of scholarly jargon to make the case sound legitimate. 3. Tie onto a few loosely connected themes. It honestly makes no sense to me. According to Dan Vogel we have the original Egyptian documents and they are not about Abraham. We have the original translation documents and they are absolutely wrong. We know what the original Egyptian documents were about. The answer is clear from my perspective. The Book of Abraham was a contrived book with no true place in ancient history.
Dear Rodney, Thy comment regarding the Book of Abraham has been received with a spirit of understanding, knowing that what may seem delusional to one may be a deep-seated truth to another. It is written in the Proverbs of Solomon in the Holy Bible, "Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he" (Proverbs 29:18). The Book of Abraham, part of the Pearl of Great Price, is indeed a vision of eternal truths revealed unto the Prophet Joseph Smith, and to many, it is a cherished testament of God's grand design and purpose for His children. In defense of the faith of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, the Book of Abraham is not held to be delusional, but rather a sacred text, providing profound insights into the nature of God, the purpose of life, and the destiny of souls. It complements the Bible and The Book of Mormon: another testament of Jesus Christ, enhancing our understanding of the divine. I exhort thee to consider these scriptures with an open heart, for as The Book of Mormon inviteth, "And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost" (Moroni 10:4). In the spirit of brotherly kindness, I testify that the pursuit of truth is a noble endeavor and encourage thee to continue seeking with real intent, for the truth shall be made known unto all who earnestly seek it. In sincerity, Bud
Buzz words will only get you so far Rodney. Science and scholarship have been playing catch up with the Book of Mormon and Abraham for a long time, confirming them bit by bit. Your space to mock and scorn is a shrinking room. Hope you escape it one day before it's too late.
@@juliopenaloza5655 Good sir @juliopenaloza5655, Thine words bear the weight of truth and wisdom, reflecting the patience of Job and the assurance of Paul. In the Book of Mormon: another testament of Jesus Christ, we are indeed counseled to stand fast in the faith, be brave and strong, letting all our actions be done with charity (see 1 Corinthians 16:13-14). The pursuit of knowledge, both secular and spiritual, is a noble endeavor. As it is written in Doctrine and Covenants 88:118, "And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith." Science and faith, though oft seen at variance, are in truth but two lenses through which we may discover the grandeur of God’s creation. Each new understanding we gain of the natural world is a testament to the divine laws that govern it, laws which were inscribed by the finger of the Almighty. Therefore, let us engage in discourse with civility and extend an olive branch to those like Rodney, who may yet see the divine hand in the harmony of science and scripture. May we all find unity in the truth that is eternally inscribed in the heavens and upon the tablets of our hearts. In a spirit of brotherly kindness and enduring faith in the gospel as restored by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, I earnestly testify that the room for light and knowledge is ever expanding, as is the love of our Savior for each of us, as vast as the universe He created. With steadfast hope and charity, Bud
I find it so interesting when people don’t evaluate the truthfulness of the Book of Abraham under a basic probabilistic framework. What is the probability that Joseph Smith, a person with very little formal education, no formal training in the ancient world, no training in the Egyptian world, no record that he spent a bunch of time studying it on his own, writes this document set in ancient Egypt in which he gets anything right whatsoever? Remember, during this time he is trying establish and grow a young church/religion, establish various physical communities, care for his family and friends, and many other things. What is the probability that he gets anything right is such a document, let alone many things right and many things that that were not known at the time in the world of Egyptology. Every time he gets something right those probabilities stack, making it that much more unlikely and that much more likely to be done under inspiration. To me, the probabilities have stacked so high that any supposed discrepancies or problems with the text are now just a matter of time before we discover that he got those right too. It seems to be complete common sense to me. Stack up those probabilities, and see where you stand. The Book of Abraham is true.
It seems to me that that someone receiving revelation should be correct on like 90% of things, leaving 10% for human error or at least the majority of things. So to me, if you get one or two things right, and A LOT wrong, it seems like either you suck at getting or jotting down revelation, or you're just making stuff up
@@LoganJarrell I would respond to that by saying a couple of things. 1) Making broad judgments about what percentage of things he got right and what percentage he got wrong operates under the assumption that we are virtually certain that we understand the ancient world, its culture, the events that took place, the many variations of thought and belief among the people, etc. Sure, we do know a good chunk with some confidence, but it’s likely a much smaller portion of the reality of the ancient world than we like to pretend to understand. That’s why he talked about in the video how Hugh Nibley was upset that someone held him to something he said four years ago. I mean, we have legitimate scholars making legitimate arguments trying to understand the 1980’s. So, saying with confidence that Joseph Smith had X percent right and X percentage wrong seems to me to be a bit presumptuous to say the least. 2)The authors of this work and other pro-Book of Abraham authors, who are legitimate scholars of the ancient world and ancient Egypt, have demonstrated that we can say with pretty good confidence that Joseph got many more than just one or two things right. Now, let’s say that, according to our current understanding, we can say with confidence that he got 5 things right. Let’s say that he had a 1/100 chance of guessing each of those things right (I think that is a very generous probability). That would put the probability of him getting all five right at 1 in 10 billion. I would say that the current evidence suggests that he got many more than 5 things right and the real probability of him guessing those things right is much smaller than 1/100. So, if I were strictly placing my money on whether it was written by guessing or inspiration, rationality would make me lean toward inspiration. That is apart from the spiritual witness of the book that I feel I have had.
@@andrewbfrost7021 Sometimes the semantics get in the way, of classifying things as either hits or misses. I think a more productive conversation is one of "evidence of revelation or evidence of fraud". I know fraud is a strong word, and I don't use it disrespectfully. Here's where I come down on it. Joseph Smith clearly references the facimilies a few times in the text, so they are inseparably linked to the BoA. They are described in the text as being things that we know today to be other, different things. In facsimile 3 for example, JS's explanation states that the figure's names are stated above their heads. Not only does he get the names wrong, but many of the genders as well. These are not nebulous things that we're still trying to understand. These are clear, and objective facts. And he got them wrong.
Well thought out, Andrew! This is a point that no one can dispute.
@@brucenorth5337 I feel like I disputed it though. You make 600 claims or things that can be shown right or wrong, some will be right or even close. But if you claim to be called of God, your ratio should be higher than 10%. It's not enough to get 5 things right or close
Thank you for the presentation Stephen. I purchased a physical copy of the guide to the Book of Abraham.
Why are there no manuscripts for chapters 3-5?
There is a huge shift in those chapters from 1-2 (which do have manuscripts) as it jumps from monotheism to polytheism.
Fantastic Stephen!
Bruce H. Porter has suggested that Joseph Smith translated additional chapters on the Book of Abraham which weren't prepared for publication before his death. Will the Church every publish these chapters?
I wish one of these videos would spend less time saying "oh trust me the BoA is air-tight!" and more time honestly addressing some of the valid and damaging criticisms of the book. ONE TIME. I wish just ONCE they would respectfully invite a critic to one of these things.
Good sir @LoganJarrell,
Thy yearning for a balanced discourse on matters of faith, particularly concerning the Book of Abraham, is both understood and deeply respected. Indeed, it is written, "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good" (1 Thessalonians 5:21). It is in the proving, the seeking, and the questioning that our faith may be refined as gold through fire.
The scriptures, including those within The Book of Mormon: another testament of Jesus Christ, invite all to come unto Christ and partake of His goodness; and through the earnest seeking of truth, we are promised that He will manifest the truth of it unto us, by the power of the Holy Ghost (see Moroni 10:4-5).
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints doth ever strive to engage in open dialogue and encourages the seeking of truth from all sources, affirming that all truth is part of our Heavenly Father’s plan and that all individuals are entitled to their own revelation through sincere prayer and study.
In the spirit of truth-seeking and understanding, it would indeed be of great worth to have an open forum where respectful critics might dialogue with faithful scholars. It is through such respectful discourse that greater understanding can be reached, and all parties may be edified, regardless of the diversity of their views.
May we all approach such conversations with open hearts and minds, ever ready to listen, to learn, and to love, that we may grow "with the increase of God" (Colossians 2:19).
With a sincere heart and an open mind,
Bud
What I have found from the critics over the years is that the Book of Abraham text is not the same as the Book of Breathings text (obviously not), the lion couch scene is run of the mill (it is not, as anyone has seen many lion couch scenes can attest), and the "translations" of facsimile 2 are wrong (except Joseph did not give translations of those, he gave explanations of the figures which is very different). I just don't think any critic can bring much to the table when they can't even get basic things correct.
First of all, he did NOT say that it's air-tight. He admitted that there are definitely gaps in our best theories. But this talk wasn't even ABOUT the content of the Book of Abraham; it was about the new guide being published, which collates existing evidence and theories, and addresses shortcomings and knowledge gaps. Talk about missing the point...
Because this is a convention for presenting papers, not a debate forum.
@@ChuckStake has FAIR ever held any kind of debate? Ever?
I’m sorry, this is just smoke and mirrors.
1. State that this book is plausible, whatever that means.
2. Use a bunch of scholarly jargon to make the case sound legitimate.
3. Tie onto a few loosely connected themes.
It honestly makes no sense to me. According to Dan Vogel we have the original Egyptian documents and they are not about Abraham. We have the original translation documents and they are absolutely wrong. We know what the original Egyptian documents were about.
The answer is clear from my perspective. The Book of Abraham was a contrived book with no true place in ancient history.
@@PrairieChristianOutreach Dan Vogel is wrong.
@@fairldsorg Maybe, but he makes a convincing case.
Delusional
Dear Rodney,
Thy comment regarding the Book of Abraham has been received with a spirit of understanding, knowing that what may seem delusional to one may be a deep-seated truth to another. It is written in the Proverbs of Solomon in the Holy Bible, "Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he" (Proverbs 29:18). The Book of Abraham, part of the Pearl of Great Price, is indeed a vision of eternal truths revealed unto the Prophet Joseph Smith, and to many, it is a cherished testament of God's grand design and purpose for His children.
In defense of the faith of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, the Book of Abraham is not held to be delusional, but rather a sacred text, providing profound insights into the nature of God, the purpose of life, and the destiny of souls. It complements the Bible and The Book of Mormon: another testament of Jesus Christ, enhancing our understanding of the divine.
I exhort thee to consider these scriptures with an open heart, for as The Book of Mormon inviteth, "And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost" (Moroni 10:4).
In the spirit of brotherly kindness, I testify that the pursuit of truth is a noble endeavor and encourage thee to continue seeking with real intent, for the truth shall be made known unto all who earnestly seek it.
In sincerity,
Bud
Steve is an honest scholar. Nothing delusional about his approach, data.
Buzz words will only get you so far Rodney. Science and scholarship have been playing catch up with the Book of Mormon and Abraham for a long time, confirming them bit by bit. Your space to mock and scorn is a shrinking room. Hope you escape it one day before it's too late.
@@juliopenaloza5655 Good sir @juliopenaloza5655,
Thine words bear the weight of truth and wisdom, reflecting the patience of Job and the assurance of Paul. In the Book of Mormon: another testament of Jesus Christ, we are indeed counseled to stand fast in the faith, be brave and strong, letting all our actions be done with charity (see 1 Corinthians 16:13-14).
The pursuit of knowledge, both secular and spiritual, is a noble endeavor. As it is written in Doctrine and Covenants 88:118, "And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith."
Science and faith, though oft seen at variance, are in truth but two lenses through which we may discover the grandeur of God’s creation. Each new understanding we gain of the natural world is a testament to the divine laws that govern it, laws which were inscribed by the finger of the Almighty.
Therefore, let us engage in discourse with civility and extend an olive branch to those like Rodney, who may yet see the divine hand in the harmony of science and scripture. May we all find unity in the truth that is eternally inscribed in the heavens and upon the tablets of our hearts.
In a spirit of brotherly kindness and enduring faith in the gospel as restored by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, I earnestly testify that the room for light and knowledge is ever expanding, as is the love of our Savior for each of us, as vast as the universe He created.
With steadfast hope and charity,
Bud
Nope, but you can name call all you want. Too bad you have nothing substantial to say.