Voron Has a CNC Now? CASCADE @ RMRRF 2024
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 พ.ค. 2024
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Thats Right, Voron now has a CNC and its called the CASCADE! Learn more about it in todays video (more details and release date later this year)
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I'm gonna need a bigger shed 😂
Soon we will mill the frames and print parts of our Voron's!
modded minecraft flashbacks
Now, it's just missing a voron partnership with Openpnp!
Polycarbonate gets scratched very easily.
If you don't want the panels to be ruined by chips real quick, I advise to add maybe a polypropilene sticker to the inside to protect them
Poly carb is used in nearly all cnc machines. It's a wear item used for safety.
In the Voron tradition, I assume we'll have a CIF (cut it forward?) program eventually, for the machined parts in this case. Cause this looks like the CNC I always wanted to build, but never got around to so far. And with the Voron name behind the Design, surely we'll see kits eventually, too. Quality TBD, obviously. New area for those that usually do kits, so might be a learning curve for them, too.
MIF? Mill it forward?
@@C3DPropShop well I personally think it's too close to "Milf" but, maybe that's just me...
4:29 FINALLY! a use for PCBway!
Spoke to siboor and they are interested in producing a kit of this. Maybe worth reaching out to them if your looking for companies to produce kits of this later this year. Looks like a lovely sized cnc mill
What the hell. I literally JUST bought a desktop CNC... now I have to build one too. 😂
The week-end live session/video was really fast and I am happy that you circled back to publish this one-on-one interview to give us more details.
Great questions, good stuff!
Thanks!
Spectacular! I'm definitely gonna keep an eye on this! Looks really great! Thanks for sharing!
I hope Sovol is watching this.
AHAH that's exactly what came to my mind 😂👌👌
I have a fox alien wm3020 machine at a similar form factory. The Voron community getting involved in the subject will be interesting as there is little for small machines that are capable of machining metal.
And it's good to see that someone else is interested in a enclosure and cooling that should be normal on this kind of machine
Must have one of these... My MPCNC is gathering dust as it's just not good enough.
I'm surprised the BOM includes the bed, it could mill its own plate surely?
Great video man!
Very cool, I was hoping something like this would happen!
Very nice!
V2.4 was a thousand+ at one point, kits have caused that price to crash down to below a thousand for even the 350mm. I'm sure in a few years you'll be able to build this for no more than 1.5k
Ben waiting for this one 💥💥
Voron: we are looking ways to cut cost
China: hello...
Outstanding! I'm excited for the official release. Personally I would be running Mach4. But that's because I already have a couple of home built CNC machines that run it and I'm both familiar with it and already have it.
I'll personally print as much of it as possible. 90% of the products I print are 100% infill anyway. So I'm used to the long print times and some of the potential struggles with 100% infill.
Sweet, looking forward to release and comparisons with the Milo as I need one or the other. After this though can Voron design a metal 3d printer for under 500k thx
What type of metal printer?
it's really interesting to see the transition to machining for the 3D printing community
nice…caint wait to build one
Still waiting for voron to release a resin and sls printer.
Will the front fall off if you try cutting A2?
wow amazing
I'm curious what all they need to get frame kits put together. I'd be happy to run some out of my cnc shop.
The raw extrusions are around 150usd iirc. But if you want em all pre drilled, tapped etc the cost goes up to like 500
I guess what I was saying is that I have a cnc shop. I'd be happy to be a manufacturer for kits as needed (cnc plasma, cnc routing, lasers, a couple cnc milling machines, etc).
When the BOM comes out, I'll have of take a look.
Gimme!
seems interesting
Use shorter end mills on steel, also lower the chip load by taking smaller cuts
So if the custom made aluminum parts remain custom will the schematics of them be released so lets say a local machine shop make them?
It will be fully open source, so of course! That's the idea, you have them made, it when you built one, make them for a new builder
ayee, its using a saunders machine works fixture plate!
Looks cool, and probably will be the next best upgrade for something like the AnoleX Ultra (ballscrews and linear rails with a 1.5kw spindle for $1700 makes it pretty dang competitive though)
DIY DNC,
So hot right now.
Will the design include an atc ?
I know linux cnc and grbl, so it sounds like i’m safe. If you’re going to cut metal, don’t you want to move cutting fluid?
ATM it's fitted with an air blaster/mister but added fluid flushing wouldn't be hard
What tool setter is it using, also how are you zero you parts?
Not sure which one was used here, but you can add whichever one you prefer
Personally I wouldn't mark out the plates by-hand. I'd just design and print a jig to keep my hacksaw straight and centerpunchs.... central.
Cutting and drilling Jjgs and templates etc. will be available, yes.
I wonder how it stacks up against the announced rat rig mill.
This seems moreso in the desktop mini-cnc mill type form.
The RatRig Stronghold or whatever seemed more aimed at the “CNC Router” type formfactor. So you get and entire SHEET of something and cut that down. Also larger spindles maybe. It is also a stationary “bed” (for lack of a better word) vs this. Cartesian vs Gantry maybe? Unsure on what is the right term there.
@@ericlotze7724 I am not talking about the ratrig stronghold, but their new mill design which isnt released yet.
@@tHaH4x0r ah yeah! Is it still on “Coming Soon”, I remember seeing that/asking about it but I didn’t hear too much.
Also what is the difference between a cnc router with a “proper” spindle, and a cnc mill? My guess is Z Axis Height?
Can you machine the parts for the Cascade with another Cascade?
as covered in the video, yes you can
there's just not gonna be a way to fit this machine to my life but man, i really want one
ikr
Wow that`s a surprise, now get some hope for a voron edm mashine.
nice! is that possible to build a Voron 2.4 using 2040 aluminum extrusion ?
It can be done if you do it right, using 4040 (20x20) profiles for the outer frame has been done by others that wanted more room for insulation for example
@@CanuckCreator how do I print the Y gantry holders. The voron stl files are for 2020
I would love to see this working with FluidNC
cost?
It won't be just a question of whether the machine is of quality or not but also if they can implement some kind of beginner friendly software. Machining is vastly more difficult for a beginner to pick up and learn compared to 3d printing.
So it's basically a 4040's specs with a build volume slightly smaller than a 3018? I would be interested in a side by side comparison to those (obviously with the router upgrade on the 3018 to let it do aluminum) and the Carveras to see if the extra cost is gaining anything in performance against the cheap ones and similar cost makes it at all comparable in capabilities to a Carvera.
Well. Spec wise it outperforms the carvera. This has a 1.5kw spindle vs the 200w.
Yeah, Carvera has weaker spindle. At the same time they are trammed from factory, more rigid and more precise. Pros/cons I guess
@@airatooo Yeah, from what I've seen people do with various desktop CNC mills, Carvera does something with their builds so their 200W spindle cuts metal like any other machine at 1000W. Sometimes just throwing more power at it isn't the best option but it seems like that's the only real choice we have with off the shelf parts. This new Voron build will be somewhere between the price of their mainline machine and the Air.
This looks great, better surface finish than the carvera air
Is it really a voron? Or is it like the hemi? there is really only one hemi but it was turned into anything made by hemings motor Corp.
Any official release by the voron design team is a "voron"
@SupaaMann I suppose... just a little disappointing. Kind of like supporting a green company who's products are 100% sustainable then they come out with a product that made of unrecyclable material that's trimmed in fur and runs on unrefined oil and baby seal fat. But hey... they make the rules. I don't want to hear anyone talking about "that's not a voron it has a machined part". Not once
The original design was fully "3d printed parts" but was basically just a slightly better 3018.
Yes its nice to keep to the wholly COTS only design goals, but lets be honest, with the forces involved with subtractive manufacturing. You do kinda want more rigid...metal....parts
Also, its mostly just plates with holes in em, we had to drill our own beds back in the day before they became common to buy.
I'd better start saving!!
This might end up in my garage. Footprint is small enough
Wonder why it couldn't be fully enclosed.
Same. There's almost definitely a technical reason, but in curious what it is
Might be because the enclosure will be odd shaped or just too large. The spindle goes up in Z axis and that area makes the enclosure almost 2x taller. I do recommend to make a full enclosure, chips absolutely will fly out of that gap
2500!! well I’ll definitely stick to my excellent low budget MPCNC.
First of all, I thought Voron is just a project. As for CNC, it looks just standard thing, we have lot of such projects here. But Im pretty sure Voron tried to do top-notch and affordable design. They forgot to flow lubricants while machining steel... 😢 Aa for alternatives, I know company that produces full frame and base as two parts out of plastic/ concrete composite. So it is totally rigid.
Fugg, almost bought a milo 1.5, now I have more thinking to do
why not both?
@@CanuckCreator Money.😅 How does this compare to the Milo? Pro/Cons, on paper?
@@CanuckCreator it's gonna happen because this video said not untill the end of this year lol. I'm ordering an 1.5 this weekend
so it can cut another bed like that one?. self replicating?
all parts for the Cascade can be machined on a cascade
@@CanuckCreator how would you do that if the bed and the piece your making is the same size?
@@adamfilipowicz9260 Use locator pins to create the bed in 2 or more operations
nice Shapeoko
That spindle is made by who?
I BELIEVE its a g-penny one off ali-express
Centroid Acorn would be great on this one 👌 Or a Triple Beast with Beamicon2 software 👌👌
Great undertaking indeed but... our friend from Cascade, missed the main point: SPEED, SPEED and perhaps SPEED!
you need to cover the screws on the linear rails you risk chips getting into there and into the linear rail block ... not good!
Centroid Acorn would be a good match
For real it has to be able to machine steel ! It would make it not very interesting otherwise. It has to cut the aluminum clean to. Otherwise Milo v1.5 would just be better... UNLESS if you can scale the cascade again
well not to hate but these kind of machines or kits been out for a while it will be hard to compete with existing machines that will be obviously cheaper and as competitive as the new voron cnc
$2000 is insanity for a kit. Thats hitting PrintNC, Onefinity and Shapeoko territory, all of which are more capable and offer a larger xutting volume.
that cost includes self sourcing everything. And thats the "worst case price"
For example
If you want all the extrusions ordered from misumi pre cut/drilled/tapped and ready for assembly its like 500 usd
If you order JUST the extrusions and do the work yourself its like 160usd
Its kinda like self sourcing a voron is 1500-2000usd, where as theres kits from vendors for 7-800$
Single self sourced build vs mass produced kit. Scaling out makes a huge impact on pricing
With most Vorons, you need the assistance of another machine. In this case, you'll need a cnc machine to make the parts. For me, I'll be getting a Carvera Air.
Carvera also has a spindle thats has 7.5x less wattage (1500w vs 200w) and uses much smaller tooling
@CanuckCreator Yes, that's why it's called Carver Air. It's going to be used for smaller projects. What I meant was that most projects require another machine to make parts for it. Sometimes, you need to outsource it. It's just a fact.
Nero's last video: Voron = no custom parts... So this isn't a Voron then correct?
ahh shoot, your right, cancelling the release now
Not really different than extrusions or panels since you can order the flat stock and do it by hand still. You just wouldn't want to.
This
While it tries to keep the the whole design goal of voron using COTS as much as possible, lets be honest, the forces involved in CNC are greatly different then FDM and thus, the increased rigidity of metal parts is needed in some locations.
As covered in the video, most of the 8 "special" components can be simply metal plates of the correct XY size (most are designed without a specific required thickness as well) with holes drilled in em. If your planning on building and using a CNC, drilling holes in aluminum shouldnt be too far of a leap skill/tooling wise to do by hand
Who was wearing the OnlyBenchies had in the opening pan?
The fox alien and sainsmart machines are so cheap it seems hardly worth getting one of these.
While a larger work area, both those machines have much less capable and weaker spindles with flimsier/weaker frames
@@CanuckCreator Sure out of the box. Most folks go for an after market spindle then add beefier rails, all of which can be done for well under $200.
Im interested to see what the voron team come up with though.
I was so excited until the price came out
Remember, that price is for self sourcing with no bulk discounts, you`ll probably see the price drop quite a bit on kits like what happened with the Voron Printers after a while
CNC Milling is quite a bit different than Printing. Sure, the machines look to be moving in the same way. But that's where the similarities end. Milling has to endure being forced through a material that really would rather not be cut. Printing is basically just dragging a nozzle around with no load. Other than the weight of the print head...
Not for nothing though... That's approximately the same price as building a self sourced 350mm V2.4 with quality materials. Having said all this... There are TONS of DIY CNC designs out there now. I built a CNC Router out of MDF almost a decade ago and it's still cutting great. If cost is your primary concern though. MPCNC is probably the cheapest way to build a CNC router/mill right now. It's not gonna be anywhere near as rigid or precise as this design is. But having built one myself. I can tell you that it works pretty well. It's definitely more precise than my old MDF machine. But admittedly...I cut a lot of corners when I built the MDF machine.
@@CanuckCreator I really love the idea of bootstrapping with printed parts. Printed cncs have already proven to be good enough to make themselves replacement parts.
It would be amazing if the designs could accommodate for this via optional captive nuts etc. instead of a complete redesign.
Love the melding of the additive and subtractive going on lately in the community.
I’m hoping there’s more to the capability. All these simple run downs make me think the Milo 1.5 just beats this out in performance per $ and it’s easier to bootstrap.
different paths to the same goal, Cascade has a smaller footprint and is designed with enclosure already part of the machine vs the milo which takes up a much larger footprint with the advantage of more X and Z work room.
Machine choice depends on the user`s goal
Seen a couple videos on this now, and Doug seems to be getting a lot more comfortable in front of the camera.
The entire concept is very interesting, and I'd really like a CNC router about this size, but alas my dreams exceed my budget - and while this gets closer, it sounds like it's still not going to quite make it. Being poor kinda sucks.
Cool but this is a CNC3018 with a too big spindle that costs 15x
3k? 😂
Why do I feel one of the most popular things to mill first will end up being Voron 3DP aluminum upgrade parts.
The voron team actually advises against metal components because of the increased resonance. But I'm sure there's some parts that would work better with metal.
Looks like a competitor for the Langmuir MR1. Can't wait to learn more about it!
Languir looks like a beast compared to this... 800lb concrete reinforced. I'd say its not in the same league.
3D Printers are also CNC machines. They are simply additive not subtractive.
Meh, moving bed means you can't mill anything large. Would not build a machine that isn't moving portal.
Then build one 🙂 It will be good to have options in this space.
@@crawlerin designing is unfortunately not my skillset, it's still a cool machine, just not what I hoped :D
voron's first bedslinger :D
Not really, switchwire was released 3 years ago.
Second, they already have the Switchwire.
Not rigid enough
aww shucks, i guess they faked all the milled aluminum parts it was making
Please, for the sake of all of us who work in this industry, stop saying “It’s a CNC” - it’s not a CNC, that’s the control system! It’s a CNC mill! Or a CNC lathe! Or a CNC printer! It is some specific machine that has a Computer Numerical Control system to drive it, it is not the control system itself! I appreciate your coverage of it and I’m really glad to see the Voron project getting ready to release Cascade, but please - help us out by using the proper terminology, you have so much reach with your platform and people who don’t know better are going to start parroting you.
So at this point, i am going to acknowledge you are "correct" HOWEVER
Lets be honest, in common talk with the majority of people, when you say its a CNC, they know your referring to some sort of subtractive manufacting machine thats controlled by a computer.
And this is from someone who spent years working in a toolshop around bays of CNC`s
And that’s why it matters. Because your platform does not just reach people who know, but also people who don’t. And when you’re in a shop, you don’t just say “do it on the CNC”, you say, “Use the Haas” or “put it on the mill”, because calling something a CNC doesn’t distinguish what that machine is capable of (unless you’re taxonomically discussing one machine with a system vs one that’s manual, but again that’s the edge case here). All I’m asking is that in future videos you recognize the impact that your language is going to have on the community. Honestly, I find it hard to believe that you’ve never encountered someone to say this before, because the very first shop I worked in I got immediately smacked and told off by the head machinist for making that mistake.
I think you are being a bit nitpicky. Technically you ae correct, in common language, when you say "CNC" everyone knows what is being talked about.
no kidding. this bugged me too
Yes, you are correct, but No
No wonder you're having such issues with steel. Wrong tool and size, and huge stick out and going slow. Need to go high feed cutter and feed fast and shallow and use hsm workflow.
Who said it was having issues with steel?
Hello Nero, yet another interesting video from you!
Firstly, it's imperative to bear in mind that all the preceding Voron machines, including this milling machine, are CNC devices. It's crucial to note that "CNC" isn't solely synonymous with milling machines but encompasses any machine controlled by numerical commands, including 3D printers and not exclusively milling machines.
Now, I want to highlight a significant design flaw made by the Voron team here. The MGN type rails operate on a single ball circulation system, which is suitable for tools not subjected to operational stresses, such as lasers, 3D printers, plasma cutters, etc. However, for tools enduring physical cutting stresses-essentially, tools encountering material resistance-like milling machines, lathes, drills, among others, rails with dual ball circulation, such as the HGH type, are essential. In such applications, the purpose shifts from linear axis guidance to containing dynamic loads across all three axes while maintaining an equal level of static moment in all directions, not solely along the axis. However, the MGN15 exhibits a static moment more than twice lower in the other directions than its axis, unlike the HGH15. Furthermore, with an equivalent rail width, the MGN is three times less stable on its axis and five times less stable on the other axes than an HGH rail. There's a miscasting here.
What happens practically during milling with MGN rails? Well, since the guides are less well-constrained, each axis of the machine introduces weaknesses in the other directions. As soon as the tool engages, the material resistance will dissipate into the weak axes of each guide. In other words, the machine's "feed and speed" parameters will need to be reduced until they fall within the load-bearing capacity of the guides, which are very low with the MGN series, thereby diminishing the milling machine's capacity and performance. And since the weaknesses of the guides accumulate across all three axes, the capacity enabled by a 1500w spindle carrying a tool up to 13mm in diameter (1/2") will be greatly affected. In summary, due to its guides, the machine has an oversized spindle, which allows for mounting cutting tools of a diameter far too large for the dynamic load that the rails can support. In other words, a 500w spindle carrying only 7mm diameter tools may already exceed the capacity of the MGN15 rails.
Here are some figures that anyone can verify: an MGN15 rail mounted in the X direction has a static moment of 21.6Nm in the Y and Z directions. However, a 1500w spindle, without cutting effort, already generates a torque of 6Nm. Moreover, material resistance can induce a delta-torque five times greater. Therefore, it's insufficient on just one axis alone. Since the weakness will accumulate across all three axes, we fall far short of the requirement to support the standard cutting efforts of a 1500w spindle. Here, we find ourselves in the scenario of a 3D printer equipped with a high-flow nozzle, but with mechanical components that resonate, reducing the acceleration to a laughable level compared to the hotend's capacity.
So, I understand very well what led to the choice of MGN rails: cost and the habit of using them on 3D printers. However, subtractive manufacturing, such as milling, has a completely different set of requirements. I don't want my comment to come across as disdain or baseless criticism; however, it's a common beginner mistake to economize on guides and transmission. Because, I'm afraid, 12mm ball screws are also undersized for this type of spindle. My advice for the Voron team is that a machine, especially a milling machine, must be consistent in all aspects. The structure, electromechanics, guides, and transmission must be proportionate to the cutting tool and inherent torque. So either the spindle and tools need to be downsized, or the guides and transmission need to be upsized. Otherwise, we'll settle for what an unbalanced machine can deliver.
It's a pity because the components that drag the machine down render the good components, like the spindle, inadequate and therefore too expensive. Consequently, we could create an equally performing machine, yet less expensive, with coherent components.
This is evident to the seasoned engineer that I am, without further in-depth investigation of the machine, especially its crucial structure. All said amicably and with humility.
tooo expensive
k
@@CanuckCreator there are cheaper options for 1000-1500 if you wanna cut aluminium with 800/6mm/1mm and steel, they are not to slow
Grbl Linux duet🤮. Get centroid acorn and be done.
You do know you can just run whatever controller you want on it, like was covered in the video
Centroid and all that isn’t Open Source though right? Why not get a Tormach if Open-ness isn’t an issue?
You can buy cnc like this its not that special . voron should stick with 3d printers
nah
L take my guy
Agreed
Well you can buy a 3D printer too
We need klipper to add the general cnc feature see thread "Klipper for CNC initiative"